Vince Carter trade that didn't happen

[Nathan Explosion]

First off, before I start, I'm more than thrilled with the Jefferson trade. I think it makes the Spurs one of the top 3 teams in the NBA when all are healthy.

Now, I'm watching the Orlando-Atlanta game, and am just amazed with how Vince has fit in with the Magic so far. The guy can do anything offensively and shoot from anywhere on the court.

Having a guy like that next to Parker, Duncan and Gino would have been amazing. The guy may not have the defensive ability to adapt to the Spurs, and who knows how the chemistry would work, but if this were a video game, Vince would definitely make the Spurs the team to beat.

Just killing time by wondering what could have been. Can't wait for next Wednesday so I can see what will be for the next 7 and hopefully 8 months (think June ;) ).

[TIMMYD!]

I think about that too but we have to leave that behind and focus on what is in front of us right now.

[Nathan Explosion]

I think about that too but we have to leave that behind and focus on what is in front of us right now.

Like I said, I've moved on. I'm more than happy with Jefferson. It's more of just imagining what Carter would do to this team offensively. They'd be almost unstoppable.

[Mel_13]

First off, before I start, I'm more than thrilled with the Jefferson trade. I think it makes the Spurs one of the top 3 teams in the NBA when all are healthy.

Now, I'm watching the Orlando-Atlanta game, and am just amazed with how Vince has fit in with the Magic so far. The guy can do anything offensively and shoot from anywhere on the court.

Having a guy like that next to Parker, Duncan and Gino would have been amazing. The guy may not have the defensive ability to adapt to the Spurs, and who knows how the chemistry would work, but if this were a video game, Vince would definitely make the Spurs the team to beat.

Just killing time by wondering what could have been. Can't wait for next Wednesday so I can see what will be for the next 7 and hopefully 8 months (think June ;) ).

New Jersey wasn't buying what we were selling. Orlando offered a much better package than we were capable of putting together.

[TJastal]

Carter also has a knack for getting lazy and chucking shots. But I think that was a product of being on shitty teams. Orlando is so stacked right now they could coast to 50 wins without a sweat.

[spurspokesman]

New Jersey wasn't buying what we were selling. Orlando offered a much better package than we were capable of putting together.

At the end of the day its about the right player not the best player and rj is by a country mile the right player. From attitude to game approach. There's only one ball. Rj still plays efficient with less touches or more touches. I'm happy with the fo

[deL!]

It still amazes me how some Spurs fans did not want this guy

[kbrury]

I think the Nets wanted both Hill and Mason, Id rather have RJ and Hill.

[Allanon]

I would have done the Hill+Mason for VC...he's looking like a star on the Magic. I think Tim could have brought the best out of VC.

[exstatic]

I think the Nets wanted both Hill and Mason, Id rather have RJ and Hill.

Yeah, NJ wasn't taking out our trash like Milwaukee did. We would have been a lot thinner at the guard and wing spots, and frankly with VC's injury history, that's a thin roster we couldn't afford.

[galvatron3000]

If only Vince were in Memphis, then we could have made a straight up deal Bonner for Vince, maybe throw Udoka in and we'd have Vince, Jefferson, Manu, Dyess, Duncan, Blair and Parker.

[Nathan Explosion]

It still amazes me how some Spurs fans did not want this guy

I was just wary about giving up Hill. Carter is a better player than Hill, but Carter also turns 33 (I believe) during the season. The Spurs needed youth as well.

If I was GM of the Spurs and there was only 1 season to play and I had to give up Hill and Mason for Carter, I'd do it in a heartbeat. But there are many seasons and the Spurs needed some youth along with some veteran help. RJ gives them a good blend of both.

[deL!]

I wouldve been willing to give up Mason, but yeah.. I couldn't give up Hill, specially with how he's be playing this early on. He's really turning into something. Carter would be able to run the ball better himself than Mason as well as creating his own shots. I still like mason though<3

[exstatic]

Yeah, NJ wasn't taking out our trash like Milwaukee did. We would have been a lot thinner at the guard and wing spots, and frankly with VC's injury history, that's a thin roster we couldn't afford.

Scenario 1
Manu
RJ
Mason
Hill

Scenario 2
Manu
VC
Curtis Jerrels
Bowen on a buyout?

Any questions?

[Danny.Zhu]

I would sent RMJ, but no Hill. Will they consider 2 future first rounds?

[TIMMYD!]

Hill is going to be good, we couldn't have sent him especially since pop is so high on him.

[crc21209]

I'll still take keeping Mason and Hill AND bringing in Jefferson > losing perhaps both Mason and Hill and bringin' in VC.

[exstatic]

I would sent RMJ, but no Hill. Will they consider 2 future first rounds?

Dude, the deal was dead 4 months ago. They sent Carter to Orlando. This is just a dissection.

[angelbelow]

His defense is very underrated.

[Danny.Zhu]

Dude, the deal was dead 4 months ago. They sent Carter to Orlando. This is just a dissection.

Like I don't know that......

[EmptyMan]

Giving up Hill would have been a big mistake.

[exstatic]

I would sent RMJ, but no Hill. Will they consider 2 future first rounds?

Dude, the deal was dead 4 months ago. They sent Carter to Orlando. This is just a dissection.

Like I don't know that......

You mention a current player, RMJ, and ask in the present tense "will they consider...". Doesn't look like you knew, to me.

[TDMVPDPOY]

vince carter is fkn good and a bonafide 20pt player...

what he lacks is motivation....maybe because his never been on a winning team or playin with shit

[Johnny RIngo]

It's looking like Manu's best days are far behind him so having an explosive player like Carter would have helped us more than a passive player like Jefferson.

[exstatic]

It's looking like Manu's best days are far behind him so having an explosive player like Carter would have helped us more than a passive player like Jefferson.

Uh, Carter's best days aren't exactly in front of him, either. I'm not sure that pinning 90% of your guard/wing production on two guys as injured as Manu and VC would be a good idea.

I'll take Richard 82games Jefferson for 500, Alex.

[EricB]

It's looking like Manu's best days are far behind him so having an explosive player like Carter would have helped us more than a passive player like Jefferson.


Yeah having a me first ball hog would've done wonders.

[Danny.Zhu]

You mention a current player, RMJ, and ask in the present tense "will they consider...". Doesn't look like you knew, to me.

Ok...So I should have used "would"...

[narmerguy]

Nah I think that'd be a little too much star power for one team.

[024]

There is no denying that carter is an elite level player but giving up both mason and hill would not have been worth it. It would have created more holes than it filled.

[LOL@MavsFan]

First off, before I start, I'm more than thrilled with the Jefferson trade. I think it makes the Spurs one of the top 3 teams in the NBA when all are healthy.

Now, I'm watching the Orlando-Atlanta game, and am just amazed with how Vince has fit in with the Magic so far. The guy can do anything offensively and shoot from anywhere on the court.

Having a guy like that next to Parker, Duncan and Gino would have been amazing. The guy may not have the defensive ability to adapt to the Spurs, and who knows how the chemistry would work, but if this were a video game, Vince would definitely make the Spurs the team to beat.

Just killing time by wondering what could have been. Can't wait for next Wednesday so I can see what will be for the next 7 and hopefully 8 months (think June ;) ).

I'm still fuming about Stephen Jackson:rolleyes

[Johnny RIngo]

Uh, Carter's best days aren't exactly in front of him, either. I'm not sure that pinning 90% of your guard/wing production on two guys as injured as Manu and VC would be a good idea.

I'll take Richard 82games Jefferson for 500, Alex.

Carter's only missed 16 games the past five seasons. Jefferson's missed around 80 games in the same time period.

[kbrury]

Keeping Hill and Mason while not giving up much for Jefferson is better then getting Carter IMO, not only did the spurs keep young talent and depth they still have a few pieces to make another trade if one is needed.

[SKINNYPIMP210]

I'm sorry, with all things considered I like Jefferson a lot more than Carter...hands down.

Although I do think freaking Orlando is STACKED this year.

[exstatic]

By the way, did I not saying everything that's been said in this thread months and months ago? Spurstrodamus indeed.

Probably because it all HAPPENED months ago. You're a genius.

[anakha]

People were criticizing the Jefferson trade and dick-riding Carter months ago? That's news to me.

Who's criticizing the Jefferson trade in this thread? The OP was talking about Carter.

[Mel_13]

Yes, and saying he'd rather have Carter than Jefferson.

Perhaps the OP will eventually comment again, but I don't believe he says that at all.

[anakha]

Yes, and saying he'd rather have Carter than Jefferson.


First off, before I start, I'm more than thrilled with the Jefferson trade. I think it makes the Spurs one of the top 3 teams in the NBA when all are healthy.

Just killing time by wondering what could have been.

I knew you were a moron, but illiterate as well? :lmao

[anakha]

Which means, in layman's terms, he would rather have Carter.

Are you contradicting yourself now?


People were criticizing the Jefferson trade and dick-riding Carter months ago? That's news to me.

No criticism in the OP. Your backpedaling doesn't change that.

This is too easy.

[flox]

Carter is and always will be the better player than Jefferson.

[anakha]

Perhaps criticizing was the wrong use of words, but definitely second-guessing the front office, that's for sure.

How can you take a post that says 'I'm more than thrilled with the Jefferson trade' and 'Just killing time' and twist it to mean that the OP is second-guessing the FO?

Talk about grasping at straws.

[anakha]

How can you not? I'm thrilled the Spurs actually made a move as well, but does that mean I'm not heated they don't have Carter instead of Jefferson? No.

So in other words, you've projected your own opinion to the OP in order to make it seem like that's been validated. Got it.

[anakha]

No. I'm saying that it could be taken either way.

Way to contradict yourself again.


Yes, and saying he'd rather have Carter than Jefferson.


Which means, in layman's terms, he would rather have Carter.

We know your opinion already. Stop trying to manufacture others' agreement with you.

[SenorSpur]

It still amazes me how some Spurs fans did not want this guy

It still amazes me how some Spurs fans STILL want this guy.

[Baseline]

I was disappointed that we didn't get Vince at the time, but when we ended up with Jefferson for so little, I was very pleased.

I just would much rather have shipped Finley out than Bruce. I still think Bruce should be on our team.

I'll explain... Top scorers think they can score on anybody, regardless of the scenario. They don't really think about who is guarding them - they just do their thing.

But with Bruce, he had a unique ability to get in the scorer's head -- guys like Ray Allen and Vince Carter talked about it all the time. K. Bryant even admitted that Bruce was a problem, and Bryant never gives anybody credit for anything.

There's a difference between playing good defense and altering the psyche of a top scorer. I never played in the NBA, but I averaged 20+ on a few teams, and regularly saw teams throw different guys at me. Every now and then there was a guy I knew was going to be a problem -- the guys who never rest, who don't really play offense, guys whose very existence is stopping you. I hated those guys..they had me thinking about them, and not merely on scoring. That's what I mean by "altering the psyche."

Well, we don't have that this year...but we still have Finley.

[Mel_13]

I was disappointed that we didn't get Vince at the time, but when we ended up with Jefferson for so little, I was very pleased.

I just would much rather have shipped Finley out than Bruce. I still think Bruce should be on our team.

I'll explain... Top scorers think they can score on anybody, regardless of the scenario. They don't really think about who is guarding them - they just do their thing.

But with Bruce, he had a unique ability to get in the scorer's head -- guys like Ray Allen and Vince Carter talked about it all the time. K. Bryant even admitted that Bruce was a problem, and Bryant never gives anybody credit for anything.

There's a difference between playing good defense and altering the psyche of a top scorer. I never played in the NBA, but I averaged 20+ on a few teams, and regularly saw teams throw different guys at me. Every now and then there was a guy I knew was going to be a problem -- the guys who never rest, who don't really play offense, guys whose very existence is stopping you. I hated those guys..they had me thinking about them, and not merely on scoring. That's what I mean by "altering the psyche."

Well, we don't have that this year...but we still have Finley.

The FO never chose Finley over Bruce.

They chose Bogans over Bruce.

[exstatic]

People were criticizing the Jefferson trade and dick-riding Carter months ago? That's news to me.

talking about it here...in JUNE (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129700)

[EricB]

The FO never chose Finley over Bruce.

They chose Bogans over Bruce.


Hmm,

They sign Bogans in September, Bowen retired in what, July?

[Mel_13]

Hmm,

They sign Bogans in September, Bowen retired in what, July?

All of Bowen's public comments indicated he would have accepted an offer from the Spurs. No offer came.

His roster spot was eventually filled by Bogans.

That's all.

No criticism of the decision, just pointing out that Finley was never chosen ahead of Bowen. Bowen's contract was needed to make the RJ trade work. Finley's contract could not be included in the trade because he had yet to make a decision on his option.

[Ginobili2Duncan]

Remember had we got Carter the spurs would've been paying over 17 million dollars in his 3rd year for a 35 year old swingman whose game relies on speed and athleticism, and getting to the line. So while the front end of this deal looked good, the back end in my opinion would have been detrimental.

[EricB]

All of Bowen's public comments indicated he would have accepted an offer from the Spurs. No offer came.

His roster spot was eventually filled by Bogans.

That's all.

No criticism of the decision, just pointing out that Finley was never chosen ahead of Bowen. Bowen's contract was needed to make the RJ trade work. Finley's contract could not be included in the trade because he had yet to make a decision on his option.

Gotcha.

Yeah I never understood the "how could they choose Bowen over Finley"

[EricB]

That's a 17 million dollar expiring contract, I think everyone knows how valuable a big expiring deal is.

Teams also have limits to what they will trade for.

Carter's contract would've been an albatross.

[Chillen]

The Spurs wanted him bad but the Nets were not taking the bait, he would have been excellent here in SA.

[TIMMYD!]

I still like the Jefferson trade better because of his defense.

[jag]

It's not as easy as just comparing Jefferson to Carter. You have to take into consideration how the Spurs would be impacted in acquiring either of those players.

For Carter, it would have cost the Spurs their best 3-point shooter (Mason) and their best young player who's now the backup PG (Hill). The Spurs would have no bigs...and their bench would be depleted.

For Jefferson, it cost the Spurs two players that they weren't planning on bringing back (Oberto and Bowen) and Kurt Thomas. It was Gasol-like.

[jason1301]

I would have done the Hill+Mason for VC...he's looking like a star on the Magic. I think Tim could have brought the best out of VC.

no pun intended but I bet you were one of these Lakers fans that would have shipped Bynum for J-Kidd a few years ago.

[HarlemHeat37]

Um, I see every single person backing Jefferson and basically nobody for Carter.

The point I'm making is that as this season goes on, you're going to see VC shine next to good teammates(even though they will lose to the Cavs or Celtics) and you're going to see Jefferson crumble, in the playoffs, when it matters most. He's going to be bricking 3's left and right. Book that shit right now.

I backed up Carter as a significantly better play, as did most..

Vince is one of my favorite players, and I argued for weeks here about the misconceptions that people use against him..I still feel like Jefferson is a better FIT considering his potential role, and the fact that we didn't give up ANYTHING significant..to get VC, we would have had to give up Hill, which would clearly be a mistake(even though you aren't a fan, Spurstrodamus)..

the Carter trade wasn't nearly as close as it was reported in the National NBA coverage..everybody here knows how Thorn operates, and he wouldn't have done it unless we threw in Hill AND some draft picks..

Orlando's package was much better than ours..much better..

[anakha]

I didn't get that role shit then, and I don't get it now. Carter knows how to play. He isn't the selfish player people make him out to be. Even though I'd like the ball in his hands more than Manu or Parker, I think he'd be willing to give it up. Plus, he can defend just as well as Jefferson. People are overrating Jefferson's D and underrating Carter's.


It isn't that I don't like Hill, it's that #1, I think Carter is a major upgrade over Jefferson. #2, Hill isn't a true point. A team like this with a lot of weapons needs a true point. Knowing that, we could have just used Carter at backup point for most of the minutes, which he's MORE than capable of running. #3, Udrih was traded away for nothing and we essentially wasted a 1st round pick on Hill for nothing.



Still, no one knows that for sure.

Carter's a true point now?

Hill is nothing?

Still advocating Beno when his own team wants to trade him?

:rollin

[ChumpDumper]

Vince Carter: True Point Guard

:lmao

[ChumpDumper]

I never said he was a true point guard. It must be that Texas education. GG reading comprehension.You said the team needs a true point guard, and that Vince can do that.
Hill isn't a true point. A team like this with a lot of weapons needs a true point. Knowing that, we could have just used Carter at backup point for most of the minutes, which he's MORE than capable of running. #3Were you lying?


... But I can tell you this, Vince Carter has 3000x the court vision and is 3000x the passer George Hill is.3000?

How did you quantify that?

Let us in on your process.

[anakha]

I never said that. I said Carter is capable of running point as well as being an elite 2/3.

Hill is a 2 guard stuck in a point guard's body.



Hill isn't a true point. A team like this with a lot of weapons needs a true point. Knowing that, we could have just used Carter at backup point for most of the minutes, which he's MORE than capable of running.


You just contradicted yourself again.



Fact of the matter is, Beno's rookie season trumps Hill's...


http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/u/udrihbe01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hillge01.html

The only difference I'm seeing in their production is in the shooting. That constitutes 'trumping' in your dictionary? :lol



and Beno is a starting NBA point guard. Which he traded away for absolutely nothing.

A starting NBA PG whose own team wants to trade him. Go ahead and keep sticking your head in the sand.

[ChumpDumper]

Yes, the team, as it is NOW, needs a true point.And that true point is Vince Carter.


OK, I'll let you in on my secret................ I watch games. People on the forum should try it.And how is the 3000 number calculated?

Show your work.

[Mel_13]

OK, I'll let you in on my secret................ I watch games. People on the forum should try it.

What I find amusing about this debate is that you have a one or two line point available to you that absolutely settles this thing in your favor.

Damned if I ever post it.

[ChumpDumper]

You wanted to trade for Vince Carter to play him at backup point.

This gets better and better.

[Drewlius]

Giving up George Hill for Vince Carter is an absolutely awful move for the Spurs FO, I'm sure they hardly even considered it.

Let's not forget how thin it makes us.

Let's also remember how difficult it is for someone to learn our system, and how well Spurs players get as they progress in the system.

Let's not forget Carter's injury history, and possibly putting us in a position to have both of our SG/SF playmakers out for a majority of the season.

Then there all of Carter's mental question marks, is he going to give 100% if things get cloudy?

Will he learn to dedicate himself to a defensive mindset in his mid 30s?

Can he play third or even fourth fiddle?

It was just a bad idea from the beginning.

[ChumpDumper]

At this point, most d-league point guards will have better court vision than Hill.Which D-League point guards have you seen play enough to make that claim?

[NFGIII]

It's not as easy as just comparing Jefferson to Carter. You have to take into consideration how the Spurs would be impacted in acquiring either of those players.

For Carter, it would have cost the Spurs their best 3-point shooter (Mason) and their best young player who's now the backup PG (Hill). The Spurs would have no bigs...and their bench would be depleted.

For Jefferson, it cost the Spurs two players that they weren't planning on bringing back (Oberto and Bowen) and Kurt Thomas. It was Gasol-like.

Agreed. VC is a more explosive offensive player than RJ but the cost is what many I think are missing out on. Losing Mason is one thing but shipping out Hill is another. That would have been a major mistake by the Spurs FO and would have come back to haunt them later. His play so far, though only the preseason, more than proves him to be a player in this league for many years to come.

imagine if the Spurs had been able to do that deal and HIll continues to develop? This board would go nuclear, especially if VC goes down with an injury.

The RJ trade and keeping Hill/Mason is far better for the Spurs IMHO. Though VC would have been a fun experiment to watch I don't think it would have get us to the Finals again. Now we are in a much better position to get back to the Finals.

:flag:

[anakha]

Jesus christ. How old are you guys? Read a little bit into it. If we HAVE Carter, yes, he CAN run backup point. This team NOW(with Jefferson) has a lot of weapons, which a true point is needed for. Jefferson is one of those weapons, as Carter would be. If you take Carter out of the equation of players you need to get involved from the PG spot(assuming Carter IS the backup point), the options are obviously a lot more limited, thus not wasting offensive talent on the floor.


You're still advocating the Spurs having a true point guard and proposing Carter to fill that role. No amount of doublespeak can hide the fact you talked yourself into a corner.



Is his season better or worse than Hill's? That's all I want to know.


Sure as hell didn't trump it, which was what you were claiming.

And don't think I didn't see through your transparent attempt to duck out of the fact you made a bullshit claim without any proof to back it up.



Is George Hill a starting point guard? That's all I want to know.


Head still in the sand, I see.

So in the end, all your argument stems from 'Ha! Beno starts!' and ignores the fact that he's a starter on a team that didn't want him.

[ChumpDumper]

I haven't.So you just made it up.

After bragging that you form your opinion from watching games.

:rollin:rollin:rollin

[anakha]

At this point, most d-league point guards will have better court vision than Hill.


Which D-League point guards have you seen play enough to make that claim?


I haven't. I'm making the point that he doesn't have good court vision.

Caught making a bullshit claim and backpedals frantically out of it? I'm shocked!

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I haven't. I'm making the point that he doesn't have good court vision.

Seems like you haven't watched anything at all, well maybe boxscores, at least judging on your basketball knowledge. If you've actually watched basketball,that'd be sad.

[ChumpDumper]

They didn't want him, they just traded for him and then let him start at point guard.The Kings never traded for Udrih.

Are you sure you follow the NBA?

[ChumpDumper]

Watching NBA games, yes. Sorry, I don't watch scrubs in the d-league. You caught me.Yep, you get caught making up things a lot here.

[anakha]

You use the same shtick every time and it doesn't even make sense half of the time, including here.


In other words, you were talking absolute horseshit, got caught, and can't back out of it.



I'm going to let you off the hook here, because I'm assuming you're a foreigner... but please, go look up the word "trump" in the dictionary.


Make the claim, then push the burden of proof on the guy you're arguing with.

Still backpedaling.



They didn't want him, they just traded for him and then let him start at point guard.

'Ha! Beno starts!'

How convenient you ignore the team's attempts to trade him this past season.

[Mel_13]

Yep, you get caught making up things a lot here.

Damn, CD. It's like arguing with a less profane, slightly more literate version of KBP.

Not quite as amusing, but still well worth reading.

Please proceed.

[ChumpDumper]

Whatever, traded/waived/signed. The point is they obviously wanted him.No, it's not whatever.

They didn't trade for Udrih. Period.

You just showed your ignorance here, just after you flat out lied.

Impressive.

[ChumpDumper]

I'll have to catch some d-league games this season. Nevermind, I don't think they are even televised to 95% of the country.They've had at least one game a week on NBAtv for the past three seasons, and every game is shown on the internet.

You do know the NBA has a tv network and a website, right? I shouldn't assume you know about either one.

[ChumpDumper]

Yes, it is whatever. He was traded and then waived and the Kings picked him up. It's obvious I know what went on, because I've been a Beno supporter since Popobitch tried to ruin his career.But you didn't know what went on because you said the Kings traded for him.

[ChumpDumper]

NBA TV, huh. When is that game televised, like 4 in the morning?No.


Yeah, I'll get right on watching some streams of the d-league. Should be entertaining television. Right up there with women's volleyball, or Nascar.At least you wouldn't be caught lying about knowing the court vision of all the D-League point guards.

[anakha]

No, in other words, you're making shit up... which is common place on internet message boards.

Doing the very thing you accuse me of. Nice.



Twist it whatever way you want, you obviously don't know what the word "trump" means. Which I did in about... well... the 1st grade.


Then do prove your greater mastery of vocabulary and tell me how stats separated pretty much just by shooting percentages equates to Udrih having a better season.

Or you can just keep on twisting this in the current direction it's taking so you can keep avoiding the fact that you got caught lying yet again.



I forgot you're in the Kings war room when these discussions go down.

Willful avoidance of all the articles about the Kings wanting to trade him before? Forget head in the sand, more like head up Beno's ass.

[ChumpDumper]

It was a mistake in typing.:lmao

Now you are trying to tell us you mistakenly spelled "signed" t-r-a-d-e-d_f-o-r.

I don't sit there and proof read or analyze the things I say before I hit send.I don't think you do much of anything above the brain stem before you hit send.

:downspin:

[ChumpDumper]

Put it this wayNo, you already put it another way in which you lied.

[ChumpDumper]

I said misspelled? No, I said it was a mistake in typing. Again, it must be that Texas education at work. Reading comprehension... have you heard of it?:lmao

Now you are trying to tell us you mistakenly TYPED "signed" t-r-a-d-e-d_f-o-r.


:downspin:

You did spell when you typed.

[ChumpDumper]

I lied? No, it was safe to assume a d-leaguer could perform better at distributing the basketball based on logic.You stated half the point guards in the D-League have better court vision.

I asked you to back it up.

You admitted you just made it up.

[ChumpDumper]

Correct.
:rollin

[ChumpDumper]

No, I said it based on logic, as I just told you.No, you stated it as fact -- when the total number of point guards you have seen play in the D-League is, in fact, zero

[ChumpDumper]

And I'm stating that I don't even need to see them play to know with great certainty that they are better than Hill.So you now claim your abject ignorance is a virtue.

I can see how that might make sense to you.

[ChumpDumper]

This is getting redundantCertainly your displays of ignorance and dishonesty become tedious over time. I suggest you attempt to curtail both.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, like the child you are, I will let you have the last word. Clearly, with a post count like yours, it means a lot more to you.

:tuWasn't that an attempt at having the last word?

:tu

[anakha]

Well, like the child you are, I will let you have the last word. Clearly, with a post count like yours, it means a lot more to you.

:tu

And he slinks away. :lmao

[exstatic]

You have absolutely no chance to buffalo your way around a misstatement with CD. He's gone up against the most obtuse, stubborn poster in the history of ST, whottt, and acquitted himself quite well. You can't change the subject, and you can't just continue to make the same misstatements. Your best bet is a simple "My bad. Meant to say XXXXXX".

[jag]

You have absolutely no chance to buffalo your way around a misstatement with CD. He's gone up against the most obtuse, stubborn poster in the history of ST, whottt, and acquitted himself quite well. You can't change the subject, and you can't just continue to make the same misstatements. Your best bet is a simple "My bad. Meant to say XXXXXX".

:lol Spurstrodamus has far greater problems than misstatements.

[exstatic]

:lol Spurstrodamus has far greater problems than misstatements.

Well, he'd be better off saying "I think..." more and "It is a fact..." less, unless it's quantifiably so.

Opinion = Fact is a common message board faux pas, though.

[ChumpDumper]

In my opinion, there were maybe four point guards in the D-League that had better court vision than Hill. None of them, however, have the combination of other traits that make him such an intriguing NBA prospect at point guard -- size, speed, athleticism, scoring, shooting, defense, etc. Not surprisingly, many if not most of the point guards in the D-League are trying to make the same transition from shooting guard in which Hill has already noticeably progressed. Were Hill finished with his development as an NBA point guard, I might be willing to write him off -- but I don't think he's anywhere close to that.

[Allanon]

It was a mistake in typing.

Lol Spurstrodamus... :lol

[exstatic]

It's not like Spurs PGs put up the dimes, either. It's not a PG centric offense, by design. The PG has three main duties: defend, bring the ball up the court to start the motion offense, and score some. The playmaking duties are spread around amongst the guards, the wings, and Tim.

[The Great Fantastic]

Is it wrong of me to wish severe carpal tunnel on Spurstrodamus?

[gospursgojas]

The guy can do anything offensively and shoot from anywhere on the court.

Yes. VC is extremely talented. Maybe top 5 in the league.

But it never lasts...he either quits on his team or gets injured

[anakha]

Is it wrong of me to wish severe carpal tunnel on Spurstrodamus?

Then he'll actually have something to blame 'typing mistakes' on.

[Drewlius]

It's more likely that the Nets hardly considered it than what you are asserting.


Yeah, as if Hill is some elite, irreplaceable point guard.



Well, if that's the truth... looks like we're already fucked from the start, considering how half of the team is new. Might as well just throw in the towel.


Wrong. The past 4 seasons Carter has played in: 79, 82, 72 and 80 games.



Will Jefferson?

1. I'd like you to tell me one PG we could replace him with? Potential wise, salary wise, and character wise.

2. Half the team may be new, but McDyess, Ratliff, and Jefferson are all team players. They aren't egotistical, and although Jefferson may have had his heart questioned before, he doesn't have as big of a chip on his shoulder as Carter does. Not to mention, they are all team players, they are all very well respected veterans character wise, and fit into the Spurs system.

3. Ankle Injuries, Jumper's knee, the list goes on.

4. Jefferson will at least give it a shot. I highly doubt Carter would even contimplate turning into a defensive minded player. He is a one trick pony, and always seems to have a general disinterest in the game as a whole.

[ajh18]

Fact of the matter is, Beno's rookie season trumps Hill's...

I dont think statistics or qualitative observations necessarily back this up.

Per 48 minutes in their rookie years:
Beno: 19 pts, 3.5 rebs. 5.8 assists, 3.4 turnovers
Hill: 16.4 pts, 5.9 rebs, 4.9 assists, 2.7 turnovers

What this shows me is that Beno was a better shooter as a rookie, and better passer perhaps, but also more turnover prone and less capable of rebounding. Also, his defense was VASTLY inferior to Hill's, which isnt really captured in the above stats.

Give me the more athletic, less turnover prone, better defending pg any day of the week. With a guy like Chip on our bench, the shooting skills can be taught. Plus, Hill seems to be a harder worker, at least in the eyes of his coach, and that matters for something too. But to imply that Beno as a rookie far outshined Hill is simply incorrect based on the stats I see here.

[Nathan Explosion]

Other than giving up a 20 something player for a 30 something player, the main reason I wanted to keep Hill was this: Devin Harris.

Not many people considered Harris a starter and he's arguably a Top 10 PG in this league. Hill has the potential (athletic, defense, ability to get to the rim, and long arms that make him bigger than his height, like DeJuan Blair) to do the same things. I didn't want to give up on Hill.

Now, way back in the thread, someone claimed I'd rather have Carter than Jefferson. This is true and it isn't. If the Spurs had one season to play, I'd throw in Hill, Mason and whatever was needed outside of Parker, Duncan and Gino to do the deal. With Carter, the Spurs offense would be nearly unstoppable.

However, I love Jefferson's youth and talent a lot. Carter will be 33 (I think) come playoff time while Jefferson is 29 right now. Oh, and Jefferson has a better deal. I'm not saying that Carter will be a ball hog with the Spurs, but I think Jefferson is a better fit for the next few years.

Anyway, my OP wasn't meant to say that I didn't want Jefferson, it was just to say that I was watching Orlando play and Vince was amazing in the game.

Now, as for Beno vs Hill, Beno was a better pure shooter and passer, but we can't forget how Lindsey Hunter destroyed Beno in the 2005 playoffs. I remember reading after that, Pop decided that if Parker wasn't in the game to bring the ball up, the next person to handle it was the guy Lindsey Hunter wasn't guarding, which was mostly Gino.

I rooted for Beno and wanted him to succeed. However, since the 05 Finals, Beno wasn't the same player. Hill seems to thrive when pressed into action in big situations. Hell, 10 games into his rookie season he was starting and doing quite an admirable job at the time. When he finally broke into the playoffs, his defense and athleticism sparked the Spurs and probably would have helped them win some games had he broke into the rotation earlier.

I think Hill has what it takes to make the transition to PG. He will never be a true PG and a great, great passer in this league, but I think he can be more than good enough for what the Spurs ask their PGs to do, ie, handle the rock, start the offense, and score in bunches if needed.

[Mel_13]

Well, like the child you are, I will let you have the last word. Clearly, with a post count like yours, it means a lot more to you.

:tu

Well, you managed to stay away for 13 hours.

:tu

[Mel_13]

Well, you managed to remove yourself from my sack for half a day.

:tu

Now that's not childish at all:lol

[MaNu4Tres]

It isn't that I don't like Hill, it's that #1, I think Carter is a major upgrade over Jefferson. #2, Hill isn't a true point. A team like this with a lot of weapons needs a true point. Knowing that, we could have just used Carter at backup point for most of the minutes, which he's MORE than capable of running. #3, Udrih was traded away for nothing and we essentially wasted a 1st round pick on Hill for nothing.





Spurstrodamus please inform me and the Spurstalk world why it is so vital for a backup PG on the Spurs to have Superman like ray vision on the basketball court?

The players who are responsible in having that responsibility are Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobili and perhaps now Richard Jefferson as they create opportunities for others. The offense will never be evolved around George Hill or a back up point guard. Much less on any other team as all NBA teams put the ball in their best offensive players' hands and let them make decisions and create opportunities for the other players instead of the the average BACK UP point guard.

Point guard's are misunderstood. Everyone wants to compare point guards to the select handful that have been the " prototypical point guard" which have an uncanny vision awareness, ball handling ability and passing ability wrapped up in one to execute from any scenario on the court. Fact is there has only been a handful of the type of players that have this uncanny vision and execution you are talking about that have played the past 20 years. * Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, John Stockton, Mark Jackson, Ervin Johnson, Chris Paul for example.

George Hill's responsibily is to set up the offense, play great defense, and hit the open shot when necessary or be able to put the ball on the floor and get to the line whenever the Spurs play superior teams defensively that are on time on their rotations and sometimes overcommit or leave their feet when they run out on him.

The assists for George Hill won't ever be great because for the fact that he plays with Tim, Tony and Manu who always have the ball. It's hard to rack up the assists stat when you play with three all-stars who have the ball most of the time. Although if Manu continues to struggle I can see Hill sharing the pick and roll opportunities with Manu when they both close out the 1st quarter and start the 2nd. Same for the 3rd and 4th. Something he has improved on greatly since last year. ( Pick and roll offense).

[anakha]

I mistyped one time and that's all you can rag on me about.



They didn't want him, they just traded for him and then let him start at point guard.


At this point, most d-league point guards will have better court vision than Hill.


Hill isn't a true point. A team like this with a lot of weapons needs a true point. Knowing that, we could have just used Carter at backup point for most of the minutes




Who's criticizing the Jefferson trade in this thread? The OP was talking about Carter.
Yes, and saying he'd rather have Carter than Jefferson.

You sure do misstype a lot. :lmao

[anakha]

I see one time that I MIStyped there, and it was about Beno/trade.

Oooh, pointing out spelling mistakes. Really grasping at straws there, aren't ya? :toast

If you're not going to claim MIStyping for the other posts, then you either flat-out lied or were just too ignorant. Either way, it works for me.

[Nathan Explosion]

Nice post for the most part, but Hunter gives great handling PGs fits. He gives(or did) everyone in the league fits, not just Beno... who wasn't exactly a veteran at the time, playing in the NBA finals. Just as you can't say Bonner is garbage for 1 playoff series, you can't say that about Beno, either.

Beno had a hard time in the Finals. The thing is, he never seem to recover with the Spurs. He had a good year when he got to the Kings, be regressed noticably since. There's more evidence that Beno is nothing more than a backup than just the example I used.

Again, I rooted for Beno to succeed. It didn't happen though.

[exstatic]

Beno's problem wasn't lack of skill, it was lack of work ethic. Every summer for three years, he did nothing, showed up in camp fat and out of shape, and not surprisingly was injured. I think that. rather than a few turnovers in the Finals, sealed his fate, and punched his ticket out of SA.

[exstatic]

Umm... how do you succeed getting 10 minutes per game? In the playoffs that year, he averaged a WHOPPING 2.5 minutes per game. Hilarious, really.

As I said, Popobitch tried to ruin Beno's career. I'm sure he thought nobody would give him a chance after they basically cut him loose. Popobitch thrives on trying to have the upper hand. I've already seen it with Blair. Point is, Popobitch was probably fuming when not only did he see him starting in Sacramento, but his saw him own his rookie that he just wasted a 1st round pick on, when he could have just kept Beno, with similar... if not better results. And this isn't my opinion... these are numbers. You can't argue with results. Beno was 11 and 5 with a steal a game last year, while shooting 46% from the field and pulling down 3 boards a night as well. That's a pretty damn solid starter, and a hell of a backup to have around.


Ah, not surprising. Scratch a Beno or Bob Hill fanatic, reveal a Pop hater. Do you people have meetings and a website? :lol

I won't waste any more of your time or my own.

[exstatic]

I could care less about Bob Hill. Guy means shit to me. Fact of the matter is, I'm not a Popobitch sheep and realize he's nothing more than an overrated coattailer. The smartest decision he ever made was to coincide his contract end with Duncan's, because once the elite talent is gone, he will be exposed. As if being outcoached thoroughly by a rookie head coach, who had inferior talented, who is no longer in the league didn't expose him enough.
I think you'd find that he has said as much, publicly, regarding the bolded passage in your post.