Liz Cheney Says

[balli]

George W. Bush showed more class than Barack Obama when he honored fallen troops -- because Bush didn't bring cameras along with him when he never went to Dover AFB.

[spursncowboys]

I think Bush did not want to do something political like that. He did meet, without the press, thousands of family members of fallen soldiers.

[Nbadan]

That's the point...Dubya didn't want to be pictured with caskets of dead soldiers...Obama doesn't try to control the press..

[balli]

I think Bush did not want to do something political like that. He did meet, without the press, thousands of family members of fallen soldiers.

I once saw a 60 minutes interview where Bush was talking about how therapeutic it was for him to visit wounded troops. I wanted to throw up because it was clear the only person George Bush was thinking about was himself.

Even when meeting with the men who he left maimed and twisted and burned, all George Bush could think about was how said meetings made him feel like a good Samaritan.

[spursncowboys]

That's the point...Dubya didn't want to be pictured with caskets of dead soldiers...Obama doesn't try to control the press..

[spursncowboys]

I once saw a 60 minutes interview where Bush was talking about how therapeutic it was for him to visit wounded troops. I wanted to throw up because it was clear the only person George Bush was thinking about was himself.

Even when meeting with the men who he left maimed and twisted and burned, all George Bush could think about was how said meetings made him feel like a good Samaritan.

Link

[spursncowboys]

The terrorists are killing American soldiers, not their Commander in Chief.

[MannyIsGod]

I think Bush did not want to do something political like that. He did meet, without the press, thousands of family members of fallen soldiers.


George Bush was above using the military in a political manner.






































http://static.open.salon.com/files/bush-flightsuit1218805502.jpg


Well at least when its not good for him.

[balli]

The terrorists are killing American soldiers, not their Commander in Chief.

Not only do I think George Bush is a stone cold murderer, I think anybody who voted for him in 04' purposefully splashed iraqi blood all over their hands- the troop's lost lives were collateral, a necessary loss they tell themselves, the means that justified the murderous ends of the Commander in Chief.

Hell will be hot for Bush and his fervent supporters alike.

[Nbadan]

Fail!

qCrAxDENELk

[MannyIsGod]

Thats going to leave a mark.

[spursncowboys]

Fail!

qCrAxDENELk
Lawrence Odonnel on Countdown. I bet they got 5 viewers that day.

[Nbadan]

Coming this February..

68_3rjp0Rkw

[spursncowboys]

George Bush was above using the military in a political manner.
There is nothing wrong with going to watch a casket come off a plane. I respect it. It would make more sense to come up with a plan. Also a skeptical person would see his ratings down and think he needs to do something that the drive-by's attacked Bush for doing.
I personally don't think there should be press there when the caskets come off the plane. That's just me. MIG cannot figure out the difference with soldiers alive on a ship for the longest tour in over 40 years, and dead soldiers coming back from a battle zone.

[exstatic]

Liz Cheney is a dyke, isn't she? I've just never understood Log Cabin Republicans. To me, they make as much sense as Jews for Hitler. Hey Liz, if they could legally do it, they'd lock you and your lover up, shave your heads, make you wear the pink triangles, and ultimately gas and cremate you. Stop enabling them.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

liz cheney needs a huge black magic dill up her conservative ass

did anyone catch her appearance on the daily show? jon was clearly intimidated and let her speak about her stupid ass book...when he questioned her he just let her talk, she is a stupid cunt fuck her

[MannyIsGod]

There is nothing wrong with going to watch a casket come off a plane. I respect it. It would make more sense to come up with a plan. Also a skeptical person would see his ratings down and think he needs to do something that the drive-by's attacked Bush for doing.
I personally don't think there should be press there when the caskets come off the plane. That's just me. MIG cannot figure out the difference with soldiers alive on a ship for the longest tour in over 40 years, and dead soldiers coming back from a battle zone.

Well, its not your choice now is it? Its up to the each family and they decided the way they wanted. Apparently you and Liz Cheney can't figure that out.

[Jacob1983]

Wasn't Hitler part Jewish or had some type of Jewish ancestry? On a side not, aren't repeats of Olbermann beating Anderson Cooper at 9pm?

[sabar]

Not only do I think George Bush is a stone cold murderer, I think anybody who voted for him in 04' purposefully splashed iraqi blood all over their hands- the troop's lost lives were collateral, a necessary loss they tell themselves, the means that justified the murderous ends of the Commander in Chief.

Hell will be hot for Bush and his fervent supporters alike.

I myself consider anyone who paid taxes to help shoot foreigners or lived in the country under said mass-murderer without seriously trying to stop him to be accomplices to murder themselves.

I look forward to the 300 million murder trials.

:lmao @ trickle-down blame. 3/4s of the world population would be in prison for putting immoral people in office. Not to mention every American who ever voted for anyone from any major party.

[Winehole23]

That includes almost everyone, Sabar.

[Winehole23]

Not me, but almost everyone who voted.

[Winehole23]

Wasn't Hitler part Jewish or had some type of Jewish ancestry? On a side not, aren't repeats of Olbermann beating Anderson Cooper at 9pm?Yeah. Hitler was a self-loathing Jew. Go figure.

[Winehole23]

Karl Marx's grandfather's surname was Levi. He changed it to the more German Marx.

[Winehole23]

If he hadn't, Marxists would instead be Levites.

[admiralsnackbar]

Liz Cheney is a dyke, isn't she? I've just never understood Log Cabin Republicans. To me, they make as much sense as Jews for Hitler. Hey Liz, if they could legally do it, they'd lock you and your lover up, shave your heads, make you wear the pink triangles, and ultimately gas and cremate you. Stop enabling them.

You're thinking of Cheney's other daughter.

[spursncowboys]

I like Liz Cheney. I think she makes good points and doesn't rely on name calling and feel good moments. It seems most people dislike her because of her dad.

[hope4dopes]

That's the point...Dubya didn't want to be pictured with caskets of dead soldiers...Obama doesn't try to control the press.. Obama Doesn't TryTo Control the Press???????????????This is really stupid....even for you.

[balli]

I like Liz Cheney. I think she makes good points and doesn't rely on name calling and feel good moments. It seems most people dislike her because of her dad.
I dislike her because of her dad, sure, but I mainly dislike her for being a fucking idiot. She makes terrible points. She doesn't have to rely on name-calling, because attacking people with fabrications is that much less eloquent. I'm not sure what the hell a "feel good moment" is- at least when it comes to forms of argumentation.

[George Gervin's Afro]

her message is geared to reach the townhall mobster types:



I like Liz Cheney. I think she makes good points and doesn't rely on name calling and feel good moments.

[DMX7]

I like Liz Cheney. I think she makes good points and doesn't rely on name calling and feel good moments. It seems most people dislike her because of her dad.

Actually, it's because of the stupid shit she says.

[Winehole23]

Liz who? :sleep

[Wild Cobra]

That's the point...Dubya didn't want to be pictured with caskets of dead soldiers...Obama doesn't try to control the press..
No, the point is he didn't want to make a tradgedy something political. Liberals shouldn't either, but they always do.

[Wild Cobra]

George Bush was above using the military in a political manner.

http://static.open.salon.com/files/bush-flightsuit1218805502.jpg

Well at least when its not good for him.

Maybe he just wanted to take advantage of being in a jet again?

My God man... you think he shouldn't have fun in a jet if he has the opportunity?

[Wild Cobra]

I personally don't think there should be press there when the caskets come off the plane. That's just me. MIG cannot figure out the difference with soldiers alive on a ship for the longest tour in over 40 years, and dead soldiers coming back from a battle zone.
You have to remember the left loves seeing the carnage. It gives them reason to shove it in people's faces and claim how wrong we were to go to war.

[Wild Cobra]

Liz Cheney is a dyke, isn't she? I've just never understood Log Cabin Republicans. To me, they make as much sense as Jews for Hitler. Hey Liz, if they could legally do it, they'd lock you and your lover up, shave your heads, make you wear the pink triangles, and ultimately gas and cremate you. Stop enabling them.

That's because you believe the lies of the left. Most conservatives don't like such activities, but most of us also disagree with telling other people how to live. You guys are great at telling others how to live though. Then you also have to distingush between conservatives and republicans. They are not one ion the same. Republicans believe in a smaller federal government and more states rights. Democrats want the majority mob mentality. In reality, you have conservatives and liberals in each party.

Ever hear of the Blue dogs?

[Wild Cobra]

Well, its not your choice now is it? Its up to the each family and they decided the way they wanted. Apparently you and Liz Cheney can't figure that out.
Except that the liberals don't care what the family wishes are, and that's a recent change. I wonder if they pay them to get the priveledge?

[Wild Cobra]

:lmao @ trickle-down blame.

I only wish we could use that at times. Let everyone who voted for those in congress who vote YES on spending bills, pay for those costs. I think we would get allot more thrifty people voted in office.

[Wild Cobra]

Liz who? :sleep
LOL...

Are you only interested if it's Mary?

[jack sommerset]

Obama doesn't try to control the press..

:lmao BULLSHIT. Best line of the week!

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Fail!

qCrAxDENELk

Incredible. Those neocons really were a bunch of fucking chickenhawks. Five deferrments from the draft? That's incredible.

[Winehole23]

LOL...

Are you only interested if it's Mary?Who? :sleep

[Wild Cobra]

Incredible. Those neocons really were a bunch of fucking chickenhawks. Five deferrments from the draft? That's incredible.
Care to get some facts strait, or do you like looking like a dumbshit regurgitaing misleading propaganda?

Cheney's first deferment was requested 3/20/63. He started college college at Casper Community College. This is a normal enrolment form of the time when you go to college. This was also befoe the war started.

His second deferment was 7/23/63, when he switched colleges to the University of Wyoming. This was a status change, and again, before the war started.

His third deferment was 10/14/64 after his marriage on 8/29/64. Again, a status change.

His fourth deferment was after he started graduate school, 11/1/65.

His fourth, yet again, a status change, 1/19/66 while his wife was pregnant.

What's the big deal? Deferements were a normal part of college at the time. Status changes were normal.

How many of Kerry's deferments were just status changes, or before the war started? He finished school in 1966 and wanted one to go to Paris for Christ's sake.

[Shastafarian]

Care to get some facts strait, or do you like looking like a dumbshit regurgitaing misleading propaganda?

Cheney's first deferment was requested 3/20/63. He started college college at Casper Community College. This is a normal enrolment form of the time when you go to college. This was also befoe the war started.

His second deferment was 7/23/63, when he switched colleges to the University of Wyoming. This was a status change, and again, before the war started.

His third deferment was 10/14/64 after his marriage on 8/29/64. Again, a status change.

His fourth deferment was after he started graduate school, 11/1/65.

His fourth, yet again, a status change, 1/19/66 while his wife was pregnant.

What's the big deal? Deferements were a normal part of college at the time. Status changes were normal.

How many of Kerry's deferments were just status changes, or before the war started? He finished school in 1966 and wanted one to go to Paris for Christ's sake.
So he had 5 deferments. Thanks.

[Wild Cobra]

So he had 5 deferments. Thanks.
Why does it matter? It's just technicalities.

[Shastafarian]

Why does it matter? It's just technicalities.

Because he had 3 deferments that were not based on attending undergraduate institutions. Basically he found every way possible to get out of going to war. I can't say I blame him because hey, who wants to die right? Only problem is he loves starting wars and doesn't seem to care who dies (unless it's him) in the process.

[Wild Cobra]

Because he had 3 deferments that were not based on attending undergraduate institutions. Basically he found every way possible to get out of going to war. I can't say I blame him because hey, who wants to die right? Only problem is he loves starting wars and doesn't seem to care who dies (unless it's him) in the process.
So, you are now in the man's mind. I take it you are an acredited psychic then?

Who cares anyway. Almost everyone who could get a deferment did. In fact, of the 26.8 million eligible to be drafted, 16 million recieved deferments. Only 2.2 million were drafted. When about 60% of the draft eligible population gets deferments, why do you make it out to be a bad thing?

What pisses me off are the chicken littles like John Kerry, who protest against the war, then join as a reserve officer instead of chancing being drafted into a combat unit grunt, after not being granted a vacation deferment. I say vacation deferemnt because it wasn't a higher study than his BS degree. You liberals like to make hay about the wrong things, when you have no good examples to counter with. At least Bush did something exciting... Jets!

[Wild Cobra]

Because he had 3 deferments that were not based on attending undergraduate institutions.
You're right. They were status changes.

[Shastafarian]

So, you are now in the man's mind. I take it you are an acredited psychic then?Are you really questioning his motives for getting 5 deferments? You think he was just like, "Eh the war will be there when I'm done. I can't wait to fight some slant eyes!"


Who cares anyway. Almost everyone who could get a deferment did.Yeah because not many people want to fight in wars and die.

In fact, of the 26.8 million eligible to be drafted, 16 million recieved deferments.Link?

Only 2.2 million were drafted. When about 60% of the draft eligible population gets deferments, why do you make it out to be a bad thing?It's not a bad thing. We just don't like people who get deferments then start unnecessary wars.


What pisses me off are the chicken littles like John Kerry,A man who actually fought in a war...but go on.

who protest against the war,One he FOUGHT in.

then join as a reserve officer instead of chancing being drafted into a combat unit grunt,Did he see combat?

after not being granted a vacation deferment. I say vacation deferemnt because it wasn't a higher study than his BS degree.Let me get this straight. You're defending Cheney for NEVER going into battle and getting 5 deferments, when 2 of those had nothing to do with school (getting married lol). But Kerry, who actually went to war and was involved in battle, seeks a deferment for school and you say it's a vacation deferment. Are you a real person? I'm just curious.

You liberals like to make hay about the wrong things, when you have no good examples to counter with. At least Bush did something exciting... Jets!Cheney never going to war and seeking 5 deferments is a pretty good counter example. Oh and the fact that neither Bush nor Cheney visited Dover yet Liz Cheney feels she can criticize Obama for bringing cameras to Dover. That's a good counter "example".

[spursncowboys]

Are you really questioning his motives for getting 5 deferments? You think he was just like, "Eh the war will be there when I'm done. I can't wait to fight some slant eyes!" You are still insinuating all five deferments were when there was a war.


Yeah because not many people want to fight in wars and die.i don't think anyone wants to fight and die in a war.

Link?
It's not a bad thing. We just don't like people who get deferments then start unnecessary wars. Like always all opinions and no facts. I love how you people use cheney's statement against going into war with iraq and then about how he believed in a strong foreign policy. I don't like people who didnt go to war and assume most of iraqi deaths by americans are innocent civilians.


A man who actually fought in a war...but go on.
One he FOUGHT in.
Did he see combat? Did you make that argument with Reagan to Carter, Bush to Clinton, Dole to Clinton, or McCain to BHO?

Let me get this straight. You're defending Cheney for NEVER going into battle and getting 5 deferments, when 2 of those had nothing to do with school (getting married lol). But Kerry, who actually went to war and was involved in battle, seeks a deferment for school and you say it's a vacation deferment. Are you a real person? I'm just curious. Do any of your beliefs and values not faulter with each Democrat president?

Cheney never going to war and seeking 5 deferments is a pretty good counter example. Oh and the fact that neither Bush nor Cheney visited Dover yet Liz Cheney feels she can criticize Obama for bringing cameras to Dover. That's a good counter "example".
Do you know who else didn't go to dover? the media. You know who visited bush alot-his generals. You know who visited the troops more in any year of his presidency? bush. and it wasn't a stop off for a european family vacation. Do you know who wrote personal letters to families of dead vets? Bush. Who had over thousands of visits with families of fallen soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen? Bush. Obama said it was real when he had to sign the letters going to the familymembers. Yeah.

Your logic that because you didn't serve , you shouldn't be for defending our country. That same kind of thinking should make people who have not gone over there not have credibility. it's a slippery slope.

[Shastafarian]

You are still insinuating all five deferments were when there was a war. So he's even more of a chickenshit because he didn't want to go into the military during peace time? I'll take that.


i don't think anyone wants to fight and die in a war. Thanks Captain Obvious.

Like always all opinions and no facts.Did he advise Bush to go to war with Iraq? Yes or no.

I love how you people use cheney's statement against going into war with iraq and then about how he believed in a strong foreign policy.What are you talking about exactly?

I don't like people who didnt go to warlike Cheney?

and assume most of iraqi deaths by americans are innocent civilians. Who said this?


Did you make that argument with Reagan to Carter, Bush to Clinton, Dole to Clinton, or McCain to BHO?That's not how this works. We don't like it because Cheney was deferred and then advised his boss to start an unnecessary war. Try and keep up.

Do any of your beliefs and values not faulter with each Democrat president?Are you really so partisan you'll defend someone who NEVER fought in battle over a man who did and was wounded in battle? You don't need to answer because I already know what you'll say.


Do you know who else didn't go to dover? the media.Ok.

You know who visited bush alot-his generals.Yet he rarely listened to them. Funny.

You know who visited the troops more in any year of his presidency? bush.More than what/who? Plus he should visit them a lot since he sent them to a place they didn't need to be

and it wasn't a stop off for a european family vacation.Was it a stop off for a crawford family vacation?

Do you know who wrote personal letters to families of dead vets? Bush.Ok. I'd be surprised if there was a president who didn't do this.

Who had over thousands of visits with families of fallen soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen? Bush.Good. I'm glad he did that. If only he wouldn't have sent them to Iraq in the first place.

Obama said it was real when he had to sign the letters going to the familymembers. Yeah. What was real? What the hell are you talking about?


Your logic that because you didn't serve , you shouldn't be for defending our country.Defending it from what exactly?

That same kind of thinking should make people who have not gone over there not have credibility. it's a slippery slope.No it isn't. If you believe you should get 5 deferments from war, maybe you shouldn't be so eager to start one.

[spursncowboys]

So he's even more of a chickenshit because he didn't want to go into the military during peace time? I'll take that. what war have you served in?


Did he advise Bush to go to war with Iraq? Yes or no. your opinion that iraq is an unnecessary war.


like Cheney?
Who said this? don't take my comment out of context. It's a pretty well used line stating over 100000 iraqi civilians killed by americans. I've heard this a few times on st.


That's not how this works. We don't like it because Cheney was deferred and then advised his boss to start an unnecessary war. Try and keep up. try and use something besides your feelings.

Are you really so partisan you'll defend someone who NEVER fought in battle over a man who did and was wounded in battle? You don't need to answer because I already know what you'll say. what does his veteran status have to do with him making decisions for what is best for the future of this country? If he dodged the war like clinton, then I would say that is wrong, for one it is illegal. If he did what you were supposed to do instead of going to war then what's the deal? We have been at war for over seven years, none of you guys chose to go. If this is a debate on the merits of loopholes toward selective service, that would be one thing. This is about the vietnam war, where the dem president before obama dodged the draft.

Ok.
Yet he rarely listened to them. Funny.
More than what/who? Plus he should visit them a lot since he sent them to a place they didn't need to be
Was it a stop off for a crawford family vacation?
Ok. I'd be surprised if there was a president who didn't do this.
Good. I'm glad he did that. If only he wouldn't have sent them to Iraq in the first place.
What was real? What the hell are you talking about?

Defending it from what exactly?
No it isn't. If you believe you should get 5 deferments from war, maybe you shouldn't be so eager to start one. so all the isolationists who thought we shouldn't be involved in other countrie's wars, should not be able to change their mind when hitler was marching through europe and japan was enslaving southeast asia? what was real is that is what obama said. There is no present day reason why america should be at war for people like you.

[Shastafarian]

what war have you served in?None. Then again I haven't advised a President to start a war either.


your opinion that iraq is an unnecessary war. I see it's your opinion it was necessary. Funny.


don't take my comment out of context. It's a pretty well used line stating over 100000 iraqi civilians killed by americans. I've heard this a few times on st.Ah the Wild Cobra line of evidence. Have a link? Have I ever made this claim? Has anyone besides boutons?


try and use something besides your feelings.???

what does his veteran status have to do with him making decisions for what is best for the future of this country?It has a lot to do with it when they seek 5, count 'em 5, deferments and then are involved in the engagement of two wars in one term.

If he dodged the war like clinton,He did dodge the war.

then I would say that is wrong, for one it is illegal. Are you saying Bill Clinton is a criminal?

If he did what you were supposed to do instead of going to war then what's the deal?The deal is what he did with his life afterward. Is it that hard to understand?

We have been at war for over seven years, none of you guys chose to go.No, Cheney and the former administration chose to go.

If this is a debate on the merits of loopholes toward selective service, that would be one thing. This is about the vietnam war, where the dem president before obama dodged the draft. He also didn't start a war with Iraq.

so all the isolationists who thought we shouldn't be involved in other countrie's wars, should not be able to change their mind when hitler was marching through europe and japan was enslaving southeast asia?Ok. Along those same lines, should we go into Darfur? Should we have gone into Rwanda? You know which country we really need to invade? North Korea. Because after all, that nation is led by a dictator who imposes the worst conditions on his people, often killing them. You signing up?

what was real is that is what obama said.WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? I feel like I'm talking to a wall. Are you trying to say that Obama said it didn't hit him that he was president (in wartime) until he started signing letters to families of KIA soldiers? Is that what you're trying, and failing, to get across?

There is no present day reason why america should be at war for people like you.Sure there is. It just shouldn't be done for revenge and/or to make your buddies rich.

[balli]

Board conservatives are just too insane for me to get used too. Defending Cheney's deferments out of one side of your mouths while calling Obama scum for looking upon the returning caskets of dead soldiers? You people are so fucked up.

[Wild Cobra]

Because he had 3 deferments that were not based on attending undergraduate institutions. Basically he found every way possible to get out of going to war. I can't say I blame him because hey, who wants to die right? Only problem is he loves starting wars and doesn't seem to care who dies (unless it's him) in the process.

You know, his previous deferment was still good. Do you understand the concept of a "status change?" This was normal to get a deferment paper to sign in college. I'll bet almost every college student did just that. First deferment.. Changed schools twice, two more deferments, married, defermet, baby, deferemt. In reality, the only deferment that counts is the first 1963 deferment, before any talk of such war. The other four were required status changes.


Are you really questioning his motives for getting 5 deferments? You think he was just like, "Eh the war will be there when I'm done. I can't wait to fight some slant eyes!"

Are you telling me it is normal for a young man to want to go to war, rather than persuing a promising career garenteed by college at the time?

My God... That would be so stupid! Is that your line of thinking, or would you stay in college?

Link?

Cheney's Five Draft Deferments During the Vietnam Era Emerge as a Campaign Issue (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/01/politics/campaign/01CHEN.html?ex=1398830400&en=1c0259e620183dd6&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND)

It's not a bad thing. We just don't like people who get deferments then start unnecessary wars.

You make it out to be. You see, even though Cheney hasn't had any actual military service, he knows the deal. He was Ford's Chief of Staff, and Bush(41)'s Secretary of defense. I was in the Army then and still have great respect for the man from his policies when I served.


Let me get this straight. You're defending Cheney for NEVER going into battle and getting 5 deferments, when 2 of those had nothing to do with school (getting married lol). But Kerry, who actually went to war and was involved in battle, seeks a deferment for school and you say it's a vacation deferment. Are you a real person? I'm just curious.

Kerry knew he would be drafted because of his lottery number. He joined the Navel reserves so he would be in a unit less likely to be in combat and as an officer should he have to go. He specifically joined a reserve "Swift Boat" unit to avoid combat. However, the SWIFT missions changed. Anyway, without volenteerring as a skipper, he likely would have been drafted into an infantry combat unit as a grunt.


Cheney never going to war and seeking 5 deferments is a pretty good counter example. Oh and the fact that neither Bush nor Cheney visited Dover yet Liz Cheney feels she can criticize Obama for bringing cameras to Dover. That's a good counter "example".

Why should anyone visit Dover? Any time a president visits anywhere, it's a nightmare on the local traffic conditions. This was for nothing but show. If he really respected the service men, he would have only bothered with the funerals.

Is he going there? Maybe he dicided this was an easy-out for him.


So he's even more of a chickenshit because he didn't want to go into the military during peace time? I'll take that.

I don't call anyone a chickenshit for not wanting to serve. In fact, you have to be really dedicated to have a great education, then join just to be part of it. The military is a hard lifestyle.


Did he advise Bush to go to war with Iraq? Yes or no.

Most likely so. Remember, he was also Secretary of Defense during desert Storm.


That's not how this works. We don't like it because Cheney was deferred and then advised his boss to start an unnecessary war. Try and keep up.

So you don't like any of the 60% of those born in the 40's that went to college, married, or had children who got deferments, then believe in a strong USA defense.

Are you really so partisan you'll defend someone who NEVER fought in battle over a man who did and was wounded in battle? You don't need to answer because I already know what you'll say.

The extent of Kerry's injuries were superficial. He could be called a coward, ordering his ship away from battle in one instance. He was also stupid. Maybe not a coward. in one instance, he ordered the boat beached, to persue an enemy. He almost got himself and crew killed by violating standing procedure. His commander was split between courtmartialling him, and giving him a medal. If he wasn't a friend of the Kennedy family, I'll bet he would have been court marstialled. Instead, he recieved a Silver Star.

His doctor's account of the first injury (http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200405041626.asp):


Some of his crew confided that they did not receive any fire from shore, but that Kerry had fired a mortar round at close range to some rocks on shore. The crewman thought that the injury was caused by a fragment ricocheting from that mortar round when it struck the rocks.

That seemed to fit the injury which I treated.

What I saw was a small piece of metal sticking very superficially in the skin of Kerry's arm. The metal fragment measured about 1 cm. in length and was about 2 or 3 mm in diameter. It certainly did not look like a round from a rifle.

I simply removed the piece of metal by lifting it out of the skin with forceps. I doubt that it penetrated more than 3 or 4 mm. It did not require probing to find it, did not require any anesthesia to remove it, and did not require any sutures to close the wound.

The wound was covered with a bandaid.

His second Purple Heart was the only legitamate one in most military people's eyes.

Kerry's third Purple Heart and Bronze Star (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39889):

Two injuries – a small bruise on his right arm and a minor injury to his buttocks – won Kerry his Third Purple Heart and a trip home. However, the vets say, the wound to his buttocks was self-inflicted and should never have received Purple Heart consideration.

While Kerry claims the injury came from shrapnel from an underwater mine, Larry Thurlow, an officer on shore with Kerry that day, insists the wound was the result of Kerry's decision to throw a concussion grenade into a rice pile. The "shrapnel," he says, was actually rice pellets.

As further evidence, the vets say, Kerry himself reflected in his own journal that his buttocks' wound came, not from a mine but, rather, from a grenade tossed into a rice cache.

Sworn statements of those present say there was no hostile fire involved in this incident for which Kerry received his third Purple Heart and the coveted Bronze Star.

"The conclusion is inescapable: that Kerry lied by reporting to the Navy that he had been wounded by shrapnel in his backside from an enemy mine when in reality he negligently wounded himself and then lied about the wound in order to secure a third Purple Heart and a quick trip home," reads the letter.

I don't care how much you liberals try to make him out as a volenteer soldier or a hero. He wasn't really either.


You know who visited the troops more in any year of his presidency? bush.
More than what/who? Plus he should visit them a lot since he sent them to a place they didn't need to be

Funny how Obama only wants to visit when it's a photo-op, but republicans will go without the cameras.


Was it a stop off for a crawford family vacation?

Funny how one of the reported vacations wasn't. They were remodeling the White House!


Defending it from what exactly?
No it isn't. If you believe you should get 5 deferments from war, maybe you shouldn't be so eager to start one.

One deferment and four status changes you mean?


None. Then again I haven't advised a President to start a war either.

have you thought about enlisting?


Ah the Wild Cobra line of evidence. Have a link? Have I ever made this claim? Has anyone besides boutons?

Exagerations on top of exagerations. There is proof out there, I posted maybe two years ago, about the same man in many pictures. It has also been shown that when an enemy combatant dies, that their fellow un-uniformed combatants will take all their weaposns and leave...

It's magic...

Instant civilian!

It has a lot to do with it when they seek 5, count 'em 5, deferments and then are involved in the engagement of two wars in one term.
He did dodge the war.

Reduce the chance of being drafted. Yes. Dodge it. No.

Are you saying Bill Clinton is a criminal?
The deal is what he did with his life afterward. Is it that hard to understand?
No, Cheney and the former administration chose to go.
He also didn't start a war with Iraq.

If anyone was a draft dodger, it was Clinton. The assumption he gave that he would join ROTC kept him out of a draft status, without a deferment. Clinton also effectively did start that war. He signed the legislation that said we would do regime change.


Ok. Along those same lines, should we go into Darfur? Should we have gone into Rwanda? You know which country we really need to invade? North Korea. Because after all, that nation is led by a dictator who imposes the worst conditions on his people, often killing them. You signing up?

Why? What threat are they to us?


WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? I feel like I'm talking to a wall. Are you trying to say that Obama said it didn't hit him that he was president (in wartime) until he started signing letters to families of KIA soldiers? Is that what you're trying, and failing, to get across?

I'd personally like to know what Obama is thinking. He sure isn't doing anything to help our troops out.

[Wild Cobra]

Board conservatives are just too insane for me to get used too. Defending Cheney's deferments out of one side of your mouths while calling Obama scum for looking upon the returning caskets of dead soldiers? You people are so fucked up.
Deferemnts were normal procedures for college students. A photo-op with caskets is very tacky.

[spursncowboys]

People have asked me, when did it hit you that you are now president? And what I told them was the most sobering moment is signing letters to the families of our fallen heroes. It reminds you of the responsibilities that you carry in this office and -- and the consequences of the decisions that you make.

BARACK OBAMA, press conference, Feb. 9, 2009

[spursncowboys]

Board conservatives are just too insane for me to get used too. Defending Cheney's deferments out of one side of your mouths while calling Obama scum for looking upon the returning caskets of dead soldiers? You people are so fucked up.
Maybe if he did it when his poll numbers weren't down spiraling, or if he had a plan for the servicepersons in harms way. Since he has been in office he has screwed the military over and over.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Maybe if he did it when his poll numbers weren't down spiraling, or if he had a plan for the servicepersons in harms way. Since he has been in office he has screwed the military over and over.

GOd your stupid.. I have NEVER put anyone on ignore but your ignorance is wearing thin..

[balli]

Maybe if he did it when his poll numbers weren't down spiraling, or if he had a plan for the servicepersons in harms way. Since he has been in office he has screwed the military over and over.

Please don't ever talk to me or respond to any of my posts, ever. You are dumber than a rock and I'm not interested in anything you have to say. I believe you're a sub-human form of life and I don't ever want to have anything to do with you, your insane thoughts or your supremely low intellect ever again. Go to hell.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Maybe if he did it when his poll numbers weren't down spiraling, or if he had a plan for the servicepersons in harms way. Since he has been in office he has screwed the military over and over.

so according to your logic obama has screwed the military yet he uses them in a photo op? that makes no fucking sense you moron! did he send them into battle without proper eqiupment? Wouldn't that be a bad thing to do to the military?

[Shastafarian]

You know, his previous deferment was still good. Do you understand the concept of a "status change?" This was normal to get a deferment paper to sign in college. I'll bet almost every college student did just that. First deferment.. Changed schools twice, two more deferments, married, defermet, baby, deferemt. In reality, the only deferment that counts is the first 1963 deferment, before any talk of such war. The other four were required status changes.I never said I blame him for getting deferments. I would have done the same thing. It's what he did afterward that is the problem.


Are you telling me it is normal for a young man to want to go to war, rather than persuing a promising career garenteed by college at the time?

My God... That would be so stupid! Is that your line of thinking, or would you stay in college?I can understand his college deferments sure.


Cheney's Five Draft Deferments During the Vietnam Era Emerge as a Campaign Issue (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/01/politics/campaign/01CHEN.html?ex=1398830400&en=1c0259e620183dd6&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND)
"He said he "never served" because of deferments to finish a college career that lasted six years rather than four, which he attributed to subpar academic performance and the fact that he had to work to pay for his education." :lmao

"On Oct. 6, 1965, the Selective Service lifted its ban against drafting married men who had no children. Nine months and two days later, Mr. Cheney's first daughter, Elizabeth, was born."

Coincidence!


You make it out to be.Not really.

You see, even though Cheney hasn't had any actual military service, he knows the deal.He knows how and when to start wars, sure.

He was Ford's Chief of Staff, and Bush(41)'s Secretary of defense. I was in the Army then and still have great respect for the man from his policies when I served.You weren't sent to Iraq on false pretenses.


Kerry knew he would be drafted because of his lottery number. He joined the Navel reserves so he would be in a unit less likely to be in combat and as an officer should he have to go.Was he involved in combat? Yes or no.

He specifically joined a reserve "Swift Boat" unit to avoid combat.And you know this how?

However, the SWIFT missions changed. Anyway, without volenteerring as a skipper, he likely would have been drafted into an infantry combat unit as a grunt.Oh so he was smart. Something we don't want in a commander in chief. Again though, was he in combat?


Why should anyone visit Dover? Any time a president visits anywhere, it's a nightmare on the local traffic conditions.I'll ask again. Are you a real person?

This was for nothing but show. If he really respected the service men, he would have only bothered with the funerals.He would have only "bothered"?


Most likely so. Remember, he was also Secretary of Defense during desert Storm.A war that at least had a pretense of an invasion of another country.


So you don't like any of the 60% of those born in the 40's that went to college, married, or had children who got deferments, then believe in a strong USA defense.approval for the Iraq war is at 60%?


The extent of Kerry's injuries were superficial.Oh you mean his wounds from BATTLE?

He could be called a coward, ordering his ship away from battle in one instance.Are you using information from the swiftboat book?

He was also stupid. Maybe not a coward. in one instance, he ordered the boat beached, to persue an enemy. He almost got himself and crew killed by violating standing procedure. His commander was split between courtmartialling him, and giving him a medal. If he wasn't a friend of the Kennedy family, I'll bet he would have been court marstialled. Instead, he recieved a Silver Star.Swiftboat?


His doctor's account of the first injury (http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200405041626.asp):



His second Purple Heart was the only legitamate one in most military people's eyes.

Kerry's third Purple Heart and Bronze Star (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39889):You know what's awesome? That we can discuss the merits of his medals from going into war. You know who we can't discuss those things about? Dick Cheney.


I don't care how much you liberals try to make him out as a volenteer soldier or a hero. He wasn't really either.Why do you hate America? I thought we were supposed to support the troops.


Funny how Obama only wants to visit when it's a photo-op, but republicans will go without the cameras.Which republicans have gone without cameras?


Funny how one of the reported vacations wasn't. They were remodeling the White House!STRICKEN FROM THE RECORD! Thanks man. I can sleep at night now.


One deferment and four status changes you mean?Nope. 5 deferments.
"Five deferments seems incredible to me," said David Curry, a professor at the University of Missouri in St. Louis who has written extensively about the draft, including a 1985 book, "Sunshine Patriots: Punishment and the Vietnam Offender."


have you thought about enlisting?Nope.


Exagerations on top of exagerations. There is proof out there, I posted maybe two years ago, about the same man in many pictures. It has also been shown that when an enemy combatant dies, that their fellow un-uniformed combatants will take all their weaposns and leave...

It's magic...

Instant civilian!Like I said, Wild Cobra line of evidence. Unless you wanna provide a link.


Reduce the chance of being drafted. Yes. Dodge it. No.:lol He actively sought to keep his name out of the lottery. That's dodging, or at the very least trying to dodge, the war.


If anyone was a draft dodger, it was Clinton. The assumption he gave that he would join ROTC kept him out of a draft status, without a deferment.http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/felon.asp

Clinton also effectively did start that war. He signed the legislation that said we would do regime change.He effectively did? Did he send troops into Iraq?


Why? What threat are they to us?What threat was Iraq? Oh and in case you hadn't heard, North Korea has nuclear weapons. But hey, getting Saddam saved American lives right because he was on the verge of attacking us. Right?


I'd personally like to know what Obama is thinking. He sure isn't doing anything to help our troops out.Like sending them to a desert to die?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Deferemnts were normal procedures for college students. A photo-op with caskets is very tacky.

Hiding the cost of war from the public is a little worse..

[Wild Cobra]

Please don't ever talk to me or respond to any of my posts, ever. You are dumber than a rock and I'm not interested in anything you have to say. I believe you're a sub-human form of life and I don't ever want to have anything to do with you, your insane thoughts or your supremely low intellect ever again. Go to hell.

Funny, that's wht I think of you.

Oh... You must be looking in a mirror. Sorry...

[Wild Cobra]

so according to your logic obama has screwed the military yet he uses them in a photo op? that makes no fucking sense you moron! did he send them into battle without proper eqiupment? Wouldn't that be a bad thing to do to the military?
With the related facts out these past years, any idea how moronic that statemnt is?

[Wild Cobra]

Wow.. I hate this comuter at the hotel. After I responded to this, and went to preview, I lost everything I did because I was logged out of spurstalk time-wise. Now I have to start over.


I never said I blame him for getting deferments. I would have done the same thing. It's what he did afterward that is the problem.

I can understand his college deferments sure.

So anyone who gets a deferment isn't qualified to send troops?

I guess that's why the 1993 Battle of Mogadishu went so well...

Clinton did get a deferment...


"He said he "never served" because of deferments to finish a college career that lasted six years rather than four, which he attributed to subpar academic performance and the fact that he had to work to pay for his education." :lmao

If you look deeper into the facts, you will see he was refering to his High School. He was unprepared for a university and took Community College classes before starting his 4 year degree, which he did in 4 years.


"On Oct. 6, 1965, the Selective Service lifted its ban against drafting married men who had no children. Nine months and two days later, Mr. Cheney's first daughter, Elizabeth, was born."

Coincidence!

I would say yes, coincidence.

Gestation is 9 months. However, conception is as much as 3 weeks before gestation starts. The author does use facts, but misleads the ignorant here. Have any children yorself by chance? I bet since you don't understand pregancy very well, the answer is no. If it was 10 months or longer, then you can imply it's not coincidence. At 9 month and 2 days, it is clear she is misleading her readers on that. You should look at the statistics of a timeline of how long it takes to have a baby after trying.

I'll bet the Cheney's decided to have children a few months earler after he recieved his BS degree earlier that year. Like any responsible parents, they waited for him to get his degree.


You weren't sent to Iraq on false pretenses.

True, The military and intelligence wasn't yet decimated by Clinton.


Kerry knew he would be drafted because of his lottery number. He joined the Navel reserves so he would be in a unit less likely to be in combat and as an officer should he have to go.
Was he involved in combat? Yes or no.

Yes, but he never thought he would be.


He specifically joined a reserve "Swift Boat" unit to avoid combat. And you know this how?

If you ever did a little research on what is released of his records, you will find that was his first choice of duty. At the time, it was the least likely to see combat.

Oh so he was smart. Something we don't want in a commander in chief. Again though, was he in combat?

If you call disobeying standing orders and beaching a swift boat smart... A move that could have got them all killed...

OK...

If you say so...


He would have only "bothered"?

Because I don't believe there is any sincerity about the situation. Only photo-ops.

Remember before the elections. He cancelled seeing injured soldiers because he couldn't bring the media with him?


A war that at least had a pretense of an invasion of another country.

And out 2003 actions were justified by Saddam not following the agreements that stopped Desert Storm.

Were you even an grade school in the early 90's?


approval for the Iraq war is at 60%?

That's not what I implied, and it was pretty strong in ciongress when they authorized military action. What was the approval among democrats? I forget. Care to look it up for me?


Oh you mean his wounds from BATTLE?

The first wound, there was no battle.

Are you using information from the swiftboat book?
Swiftboat?

No, from firsthand accounts on record.


You know what's awesome? That we can discuss the merits of his medals from going into war. You know who we can't discuss those things about? Dick Cheney.

Too bad only the second purple heart has any merit. I cannot stand the man. He dishonors the uniform.


Why do you hate America? I thought we were supposed to support the troops.

You are so fucking stupid to believe that.


Which republicans have gone without cameras?

I guess I should have said without the media. Obama won't do so unless he has a media style photo-op.


STRICKEN FROM THE RECORD! Thanks man. I can sleep at night now.

Thing is, the president really is never on vacation. He always has access to what he needs. You and your fellow liberals having their panies in a wad over such things just shows how ignorant you really are.


Nope. 5 deferments.

It doesn't matter if it is one or fifty. Why must you prove you know how to count to five? Really, I believe you there.


have you thought about enlisting?
Nope.

Why doesn't that surprise me?


Like I said, Wild Cobra line of evidence. Unless you wanna provide a link.

I have posted this in the past. Great memory you don't have. Is it a selective momory you have? No going to attempt to look it up now.

Tell me please. How do you tell the difference between a combatant that doesn't wear a uniform, and a civilian?

Could it be if he has a weapon or not, firing at you?

Are you saying it doesn't stand to reason, for the enemy to collect all available weaponrey from their fallen comrads?

Come on now. Even a little common sense tells us the numbers are exagerated.


:lol He actively sought to keep his name out of the lottery. That's dodging, or at the very least trying to dodge, the war.

Actively? By following the normal procedures of deferments, and required status changes by law?


http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/felon.asp

I never said anything remote to such a conspiracy.

Love your thinking. You take a link that proves a consiracy theory wrong, and says it disproves everything. My God... What stupidity you display, or think others do.

Colonel Eugene Holmes's September 1992 affidavit concerning Bill Clinton and the draft (http://www.usasurvival.org/holmes.htm)

Bill Clinton's December 1969 letter to his ROTC Director

I had more links, but I'm not going to go back and find them. This computer does not retain history.

He effectively did? Did he send troops into Iraq?

Not that I recall, but he did exhaust our arselan of cruise missiles.

I wonder how many civilians he killed using them, instead of trained solders who can target in real time?


What threat was Iraq? Oh and in case you hadn't heard, North Korea has nuclear weapons. But hey, getting Saddam saved American lives right because he was on the verge of attacking us. Right?

Iraq was more a threat than you realize. Saddam would pay families of suicide bombers for their sacrifice. This was a great incentive. He also allowed training camps in his country. Then of course, he violated the agreements that created the cease fire from Desert Storm. That alone is enough, otherwise others will fuck with the USA.

Maybe if Clinton didn't let him jerk us arond, maybe 9/11 wouldn't have happened...


Like sending them to a desert to die?

Get a grip. Soldiers die in war. If Clnton hadn't downsized the military and intelligence, we would have had less sldiers die.

[spursncowboys]

Obama Budget Cuts Target Military
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/may/08/obama-budget-cuts-target-military-funding/

WH plan to make vets pay for service injury
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/17/dems-fuming-over-white-ho_n_176006.html

[Wild Cobra]

Obama Budget Cuts Target Military
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/may/08/obama-budget-cuts-target-military-funding/

WH plan to make vets pay for service injury
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/17/dems-fuming-over-white-ho_n_176006.html

Leave it to the demonrats to fuck with the military...

[spursncowboys]

When the republicans say when in office the dem president will cut military, they are always called fear mongering. Then it always happens. I admire his ability to want to conservative with tax dollars when it comes to a constituionally protected right like our defense. However we should make the next generation pay for things like health care, college, low-income housing, welfare and fail companies.

[Wild Cobra]

When the republicans say when in office the dem president will cut military, they are always called fear mongering. Then it always happens. I admire his ability to want to conservative with tax dollars when it comes to a constituionally protected right like our defense. However we should make the next generation pay for things like health care, college, low-income housing, welfare and fail companies.
I know. Are they always high or something?

Have to cut military spending to reduce the deficit, but them want to add a trillion plus annually to the deficit with health care...

My God, and their lemming believe they have it paid for.

Stupid lemmings.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Leave it to the demonrats to fuck with the military...


Democrats in Congress are organizing to squash a White House proposal that would require veterans to use private insurance to pay for treatment of their combat and service-related injuries.

So are you going to praise Congress now? Its the dems in congress who are trying to stop this..so dems aren't trying to fuck the military..another lie..:rolleyes

[Winehole23]

Military spending went up what, 4-6% in the last authorization? If you dislike Obama's decision to axe certain programs that's one thing, but it's just not factually true to suggest he has cut spending.

At most, the anticipated rate of increase was cut, but the result is still a net increase in defense spending.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I know. Are they always high or something?

Have to cut military spending to reduce the deficit, but them want to add a trillion plus annually to the deficit with health care...

My God, and their lemming believe they have it paid for.

Stupid lemmings.

No one is adding a trillion dollars to the deficict with healthcare..lie # 2 in the last 10 minutes..

[Wild Cobra]

No one is adding a trillion dollars to the deficict with healthcare..lie # 2 in the last 10 minutes..
Trust me, if this becomes a reality, the CBO numbers will not hold.

Actually, I know you don't trust me. It doesn't matter. No matter how you slice it, any proposed bill the democrats come up with to insure almost everyone with preexisting conditions will be very very expensive.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Trust me, if this becomes a reality, the CBO numbers will not hold.

Actually, I know you don't trust me. It doesn't matter. No matter how you slice it, any proposed bill the democrats come up with to insure almost everyone with preexisting conditions will be very very expensive.

so you made something up AGAIN!

[spursncowboys]

No one is adding a trillion dollars to the deficict with healthcare..lie # 2 in the last 10 minutes..
What happens after ten years? When has a bill from congress not costed more than planned?

[George Gervin's Afro]

What happens after ten years? When has a bill from congress not costed more than planned?

I don't know, do you?

[Duff McCartney]

Yeah. Hitler was a self-loathing Jew. Go figure.

Wrong. Hitler was not a self-loathing Jew. He wasn't even Jewish. At all. Read up on history man...that was a story people believed decades ago and there are no historical records of him being in any way Jewish or having Jewish blood.

[Shastafarian]

Wow.. I hate this comuter at the hotel. After I responded to this, and went to preview, I lost everything I did because I was logged out of spurstalk time-wise. Now I have to start over.Yeah weren't you leaving or something?


So anyone who gets a deferment isn't qualified to send troops?

I guess that's why the 1993 Battle of Mogadishu went so well...

Clinton did get a deferment...It's like talking to a wall. Really it is.


If you look deeper into the facts, you will see he was refering to his High School. He was unprepared for a university and took Community College classes before starting his 4 year degree, which he did in 4 years.I don't really care.


I would say yes, coincidence.

Gestation is 9 months. However, conception is as much as 3 weeks before gestation starts. The author does use facts, but misleads the ignorant here. Have any children yorself by chance? I bet since you don't understand pregancy very well, the answer is no. If it was 10 months or longer, then you can imply it's not coincidence. At 9 month and 2 days, it is clear she is misleading her readers on that. You should look at the statistics of a timeline of how long it takes to have a baby after trying.

I'll bet the Cheney's decided to have children a few months earler after he recieved his BS degree earlier that year. Like any responsible parents, they waited for him to get his degree.Because there's no way in hell she gave birth prematurely.


True, The military and intelligence wasn't yet decimated by Clinton.I'm glad our president sent troops into battle based on a "decimated" intelligence community.


Yes, but he never thought he would be.Ok mind reader. Doesn't even matter since he actually saw battle and Cheney didn't.


If you ever did a little research on what is released of his records, you will find that was his first choice of duty. At the time, it was the least likely to see combat.Based on what statistics?


If you call disobeying standing orders and beaching a swift boat smart... A move that could have got them all killed...

OK...

If you say so...I enjoy ellipses as well. However, I don't know where you're getting all your information about his war record. Is it from the swiftboat book?


Because I don't believe there is any sincerity about the situation. Only photo-ops.

Remember before the elections. He cancelled seeing injured soldiers because he couldn't bring the media with him?That's not why he canceled
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/07/obama-explains.html


And out 2003 actions were justified by Saddam not following the agreements that stopped Desert Storm.Such as?


Were you even an grade school in the early 90's?Yeah, sure was.


That's not what I implied, and it was pretty strong in ciongress when they authorized military action. What was the approval among democrats? I forget. Care to look it up for me?Don't care. What's it at now that we know the reasons for going in were bullshit.


The first wound, there was no battle.lol the first wound. I wonder how many battle wounds Cheney has. Oh that's right! He doesn't have any because he got 5 deferments.


No, from firsthand accounts on record.Link then.


Too bad only the second purple heart has any merit.According to who?
http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp Read through that won't you?

I cannot stand the man.Because he's a democrat

He dishonors the uniform.At least he wore one.


You are so fucking stupid to believe that.I know I'm stupid to believe you support all the troops. Clearly you only support the republican troops.


I guess I should have said without the media. Obama won't do so unless he has a media style photo-op.So you can't name any republicans. Thanks. Thought so. Can you name any republicans that go without the media?


Thing is, the president really is never on vacation. He always has access to what he needs. You and your fellow liberals having their panies in a wad over such things just shows how ignorant you really are.You mean like your buddies did when Obama went to Europe?


It doesn't matter if it is one or fifty. Why must you prove you know how to count to five? Really, I believe you there.You keep saying they weren't deferments.


Why doesn't that surprise me?According to you there's no shame in staying away from the military. Why do you think I should enlist?


I have posted this in the past. Great memory you don't have. Is it a selective momory you have? No going to attempt to look it up now.I'm shocked I tell ya. Shocked.


Tell me please. How do you tell the difference between a combatant that doesn't wear a uniform, and a civilian?Do they have big targets painted on their shirts? Is it like in the movies where they're all carrying bank bags with big $$$ signs on them?


Could it be if he has a weapon or not, firing at you?Sounds like a good method of identification.


Are you saying it doesn't stand to reason, for the enemy to collect all available weaponrey from their fallen comrads?No...in fact that's not what I'm saying, at all.


Come on now. Even a little common sense tells us the numbers are exagerated.Which numbers are we even talking about. SnC put out a number that no one has backed up.


Actively? By following the normal procedures of deferments, and required status changes by law?He sought deferments = active


I never said anything remote to such a conspiracy.

Love your thinking. You take a link that proves a consiracy theory wrong, and says it disproves everything. My God... What stupidity you display, or think others do.*sigh* Did you actually read the information in the link? Do I need to cut and paste the relevant parts for you?



Not that I recallThanks.


but he did exhaust our arselan of cruise missiles.

I wonder how many civilians he killed using them, instead of trained solders who can target in real time?I dunno. Probably a lot. I wonder how many civilians have been killed since the start of the war there.


Iraq was more a threat than you realize. Saddam would pay families of suicide bombers for their sacrifice.So he paid families of people who were already dead.

This was a great incentive.Did he pay any suicide bombers that had killed themselves in the US?

He also allowed training camps in his country.Training camps for which group?

Then of course, he violated the agreements that created the cease fire from Desert Storm. That alone is enough, otherwise others will fuck with the USA.:lol Interesting line of thinking. Let's go into a country because hey, they made us look bad. We can't have that. DIE MOTHERFUCKERS!


Maybe if Clinton didn't let him jerk us arond, maybe 9/11 wouldn't have happened...Maybe H.W. should have gone all the way to Baghdad. Maybe Bush should've read the brief about terrorists wanting to strike inside the U.S.


Get a grip. Soldiers die in war. If Clnton hadn't downsized the military and intelligence, we would have had less sldiers die.Gotcha. So is it Clinton's fault we sent these soldiers to die in an unnecessary war? Like it or not the reasons we were given for the war were BULL and SHIT. You guys can't go back now and say, "Well he was more of a threat than we realized." Um, Bush, Cheney, and Rummy told us he was a grave threat because he had WMDs. He didn't. It was a bullshit then and it's bullshit now. Those people are dying for nothing. Unless you want to claim we need to go into North Korea (a country that actually does have WMD) or Darfur.

[Shastafarian]

Wrong. Hitler was not a self-loathing Jew. He wasn't even Jewish. At all. Read up on history man...that was a story people believed decades ago and there are no historical records of him being in any way Jewish or having Jewish blood.

I think he was being facetious.

[Winehole23]

Yep. Pity that has to be spelled out.

[Wild Cobra]

Yeah weren't you leaving or something?

Left Monday, I'll be here a couple more weeks.


Because there's no way in hell she gave birth prematurely.

It seems to me the author would have added tha if that were the case.


*sigh* Did you actually read the information in the link? Do I need to cut and paste the relevant parts for you?

Yes I read it. Are you saying the letter Clinton wrote and the testemony the Colonel gave is false?


Maybe H.W. should have gone all the way to Baghdad.
Everyone i knew and served with agreed with that assessment back then.

Maybe Bush should've read the brief about terrorists wanting to strike inside the U.S.

He did. Why should he have take it serious when Clinton did nothing?


Gotcha. So is it Clinton's fault we sent these soldiers to die in an unnecessary war?

I disagree the way was unnecessary.


Like it or not the reasons we were given for the war were BULL and SHIT.
I don't recall the reasons you call being bull and shit being the only ones. I guess you only listened to the liberal media that only reported those reasons.


You guys can't go back now and say, "Well he was more of a threat than we realized." Um, Bush, Cheney, and Rummy told us he was a grave threat because he had WMDs. He didn't. It was a bullshit then and it's bullshit now.
He allowed the world to think he had WMD because he didn't want others to take advantage of his weakness. It was his fault we invaded. He was suppose to be forthcoming, but just placed games with the inspectors. Clinton might have liked the game, but Bush, and many of us didn't after 9/11.


Those people are dying for nothing. Unless you want to claim we need to go into North Korea (a country that actually does have WMD) or Darfur.

I would have no problem going to N. Korea and stomping out their government. However, we don't feel the same threat of a regime who wants to play with big toys as much as someone who supports Jihadist activities against us.

How has N. Korea ever posed a threat to us? I say they haven't. Still, I would like to be able to take away those radioactive toys.

[Duff McCartney]

Yep. Pity that has to be spelled out.

Yeah like I could infer the tone you were trying to convey with words spelled out on a screen.

[Shastafarian]

He allowed the world to think he had WMD because he didn't want others to take advantage of his weakness. It was his fault we invaded. He was suppose to be forthcoming, but just placed games with the inspectors.I mean, the inspectors finding nothing didn't really mean anything did it?

Clinton might have liked the game, but Bush, and many of us didn't after 9/11.Yeah Bush was hell bent on finding those terrorists. Too bad he wasn't so gung-ho in the first 8 months of his presidency.


I would have no problem going to N. Korea and stomping out their government. However, we don't feel the same threat of a regime who wants to play with big toys as much as someone who supports Jihadist activities against us.They have nuclear weapons. Those would be the most destructive weapon known. What's to stop them from selling one to a terrorist group. North Korean threat >>>> Iraqi threat


How has N. Korea ever posed a threat to us? I say they haven't. Still, I would like to be able to take away those radioactive toys.They tested long range missiles. That's pretty threatening. Something Iraq was never able to accomplish.

[Duff McCartney]

If Saddam allowed the world to think he had WMD and he was really weak...then it points to a sorry state of the intelligence community... from the Pentagon tio the CIA. Any way you cut it....the Bush White House used flawed intelligence and dubious sources to make a case for war with a country that posed no threat.

[George Gervin's Afro]

If Saddam allowed the world to think he had WMD and he was really weak...then it points to a sorry state of the intelligence community... from the Pentagon tio the CIA. Any way you cut it....the Bush White House used flawed intelligence and dubious sources to make a case for war with a country that posed no threat.

you are a traitor!



Just saved the resident dead enders form wasting a post on you..

[spursncowboys]

If Saddam allowed the world to think he had WMD and he was really weak...then it points to a sorry state of the intelligence community... from the Pentagon tio the CIA. Any way you cut it....the Bush White House used flawed intelligence and dubious sources to make a case for war with a country that posed no threat.
It was bad intelligence. The entire world took it. From Russia, France and England, to US all thought he had WMD's. It was bad from both parties presidents and congressman. However WMD's were not the only reason we were going to war with Saddam's regime.

This is kind of like the Suaz Canal taken over by a dictator from Egypt. I have been trying to start a post about that but have not had anytime (damn you Win7!!!) this weekend.

[George Gervin's Afro]

It was bad intelligence. The entire world took it. From Russia, France and England, to US all thought he had WMD's. It was bad from both parties presidents and congressman. However WMD's were not the only reason we were going to war with Saddam's regime.
.

Yet rummy told us he knew where the wmds were...condi spoke of mushroom clouds, we heard of drone airplanes that could reach our shores.. mobile weapon labs (we even had pictures).. you're right no reason to question the people who started the war...:rolleyes

how are those facts? do you need links?

too bad you were never interested in wanting to know about the previous administrations motives or keeping them to their word when we went to war.... yet obama is the enemy....

[spursncowboys]

Yet rummy told us he knew where the wmds were...condi spoke of mushroom clouds, we heard of drone airplanes that could reach our shores.. mobile weapon labs (we even had pictures).. you're right no reason to question the people who started the war...:rolleyes

how are those facts? do you need links?
lets bring up the video of bill as pres, hillary, john edwards, all the democrats and see how sure they were of the threat saddam held.
When did I say not to question the ppl who started the war?

[George Gervin's Afro]

lets bring up the video of bill as pres, hillary, john edwards, all the democrats and see how sure they were of the threat saddam held.
When did I say not to question the ppl who started the war?

let's acknowledge who had the sole authority to start the war.. let's find where the buck stops.

[Winehole23]

Yeah like I could infer the tone you were trying to convey with words spelled out on a screen.Fair enough. I'll use a smilie next time.

[symple19]

Liz who? :sleep

pretty much this

When I rotated out of Iraq I happened to be on my units last chalk. The thing was, it also happened to be that the plane we would be leaving on (to Kuwait) was also going to be carrying some fallen comrades. We were given the option to wait for another plane or to participate in the ceremony and fly with the caskets. So, we decided to participate in the ceremony, which is kind of like the reverse of what Obama did. It was a very powerful and sobering experience, because while we were going home happily, we would be sharing the ride with some who weren't nearly as fortunate. In some ways it was cool because we felt like their guardians as they left the place that took their lives, an escort on the initial stages of their ride home. We felt like they would have brothers with them, instead of a cold, empty, C-130 to ride in. I'll never forget it.

What Obama did was a good thing. It will help teach him, a non-military man, to respect what service members do, and the sacrifices they make. The fact that he had cameras there is basically irrelevant. He's a fucking politician, what else is he going to do? It's par for the course people, like repubs don't do stuff like that. My guess is that he learned some important things from the experience, and the fact that cameras were there is irrelevant. (Unless, of course, you're a partisan hack who likes yelling in political forums)

Bush, on the other hand, met with families quite often. I had to personally pull security on a visit of his to Ft. Lewis Washington when he rode around post to meet with families of fallen soldiers. That particular day he was meeting with the families of slain Rangers (Ft. Lewis was Pat Tillmans home base) as well as other families of slain 2 ID soldiers. He spent the whole day doing this. He personally met with the family of a guy in my unit a year later.
He did it all the time, and Obama probably will too. It's a presidents duty to do such things.

So to those, like the d-bag in the countdown clip, who think Bush didn't do his duty are dead fucking wrong. But to those who watch this crap on TV opinion shows (Fox & MSNBC) it sure does look good and seems to drive home a point. Unfortunately, it's just more ammo in a never ending game of misguided punditry which does no good at all. People should really stop watching that shit.

[MannyIsGod]

Great post.

[spursncowboys]

great post.
+1

[ElNono]

liz who? :sleep

+1

[Doug Reese]

He could be called a coward, ordering his ship away from battle in one instance. He was also stupid. Maybe not a coward. in one instance, he ordered the boat beached, to persue an enemy. He almost got himself and crew killed by violating standing procedure. His commander was split between courtmartialling him, and giving him a medal. If he wasn't a friend of the Kennedy family, I'll bet he would have been court marstialled. Instead, he recieved a Silver Star.

Sorry I couldn't have been more timely in making this reply.

The original post is littered with misrepresentations, misinformation and blatant falsehoods. So many, I think I'll just comment on just the one (above), as to comment on all of them would take too much time . . . . although what was said about Kerry's lottery number being low is pretty funny, since they didn't have lottery numbers back then.

Yes, he ordered his boat beached in order to pursue an enemy soldier. All the other comments (except frhim receiving a Silver Star) are false.

1. He did NOT "almost get his crew killed".

2. He was NOT violating standard procedure.

3. His commander did NOT consider court martialling him.

I am fairly certain that any facts provided to you would not be accepted, so I am posting this so other can know the truth.

I was on that Feb 28, 1969 operation -- as an Army advisor of the 60 or so Vietnamese troops who were on the Swifts that day. To make a long story short, beaching the boats under certain situations (such as the one that actually occured) was discussed with us AND the Navy in advance.

Specifically, the Swifts came to our village Feb 27 to talk about the operation, and the possibility of beaching. That, along with having Vietnamese troops aboard, had never been done previous to that day.

So, what was done, was PLANNED, and NOT against "standard procedure".

Kerry' actions saved his crew, as acknowledged by them afterwards.

The court martial comment, made by Kerry's commander, was TONGUE-in-CHEEK, according to the commander.

There were 25 of us there that day. Not a single one of us, and that includes the only member of the Swift Boat Veterans for "truth", has disagreed with Kerry's actions that day.

The only people who have a problem with Kerry's actions that day, without exception, were not there.

Doug Reese

[Wild Cobra]

Sorry I couldn't have been more timely in making this reply.
----


Well, excuse me for not believeing you, and believing other people's accounts. Are you claiming to be the real Doug Reese, or posting his material from somewhere?

[Doug Reese]

Well, excuse me for not believeing you, and believing other people's accounts. Are you claiming to be the real Doug Reese, or posting his material from somewhere?
Hmm, the "real Doug Reese"? Well, I'm Doug Reese, and what I post comes from me, not "somewhere".

Oh, and there is no account of what happened Feb 28, 1969, along the Dong Cung Canal, from anyone who was there, that disagrees with what I have posted.

There's plenty from those who were NOT there that disagrees with my comments, but not from anyone who was there.

Now, as for "me being me", do you have some sort of test to prove I am, well, me?

Doug Reese

[balli]

:rollin

:tu

[spursncowboys]

Hmm, the "real Doug Reese"? Well, I'm Doug Reese, and what I post comes from me, not "somewhere".

Oh, and there is no account of what happened Feb 28, 1969, along the Dong Cung Canal, from anyone who was there, that disagrees with what I have posted.

There's plenty from those who were NOT there that disagrees with my comments, but not from anyone who was there.

Now, as for "me being me", do you have some sort of test to prove I am, well, me?

Doug Reese:troll Good try Shasta

[Doug Reese]

????

Doug Reese

[Wild Cobra]

Hmm, the "real Doug Reese"? Well, I'm Doug Reese, and what I post comes from me, not "somewhere".

Oh, and there is no account of what happened Feb 28, 1969, along the Dong Cung Canal, from anyone who was there, that disagrees with what I have posted.

There's plenty from those who were NOT there that disagrees with my comments, but not from anyone who was there.

Now, as for "me being me", do you have some sort of test to prove I am, well, me?

Doug Reese

It's very difficult to believe you are the same Doug Reese that served with John Kerry. Especially since these are the only three posts you have here now. We have people who will just create new names for a point, so if I'm wrong, I'm sorry, but I do not believe you are he.

[Shastafarian]

????

Doug Reese

He thinks you're really me. It's ok, he's a bit slow.

[spursncowboys]

He thinks you're really me. It's ok, he's a bit slow.
No I completely agree that a Doug Reese decided to register a ST account two days after this thread started and on the day that Kerry's service record was brought up.

[Doug Reese]

He thinks you're really me. It's ok, he's a bit slow.
Me too :)

Doug Reese

[ChumpDumper]

From where are you posting, Doug?

[Doug Reese]

It's very difficult to believe you are the same Doug Reese that served with John Kerry. Especially since these are the only three posts you have here now. We have people who will just create new names for a point, so if I'm wrong, I'm sorry, but I do not believe you are he.
Ok then, be sorry, as Doug Reese I am.

Doug Reese

[Doug Reese]

From where are you posting, Doug?
Vietnam.

Middle of the nightover here . . . . .

Doug Reese

[ChumpDumper]

Vietnam.

Middle of the nightover here . . . . .

Doug ReeseThanks for the response. I am personally inclined to believe you, but if anyone else wants to verify that claim, they can PM a mod.

[Doug Reese]

Thanks for the response. I am personally inclined to believe you, but if anyone else wants to verify that claim, they can PM a mod.
My pleasure . . . . . meanwhile, back to sleep for me!

Doug Reese

[Wild Cobra]

Ok then, be sorry, as Doug Reese I am.

Doug Reese

You know how difficult it is to believe you when we have a Swift Boat vetran in my home town that I have actually heard interviews with? I guess you wpuld say he's a liar.

[clambake]

i've heard those interviews.

you're right, he's a liar.

[Wild Cobra]

i've heard those interviews.

you're right, he's a liar.

So I'm suppose to believe the word of three veterans Kerry knew over at least a dozen others that say he lied?

OK. I understand how you think anyway. You only care about what fits in your world. If you disagree with something, it a lie. If you agree with something, it's true.

Consider the... watch all five parts:

gWSFDSXHS4Y

[Doug Reese]

You know how difficult it is to believe you when we have a Swift Boat vetran in my home town that I have actually heard interviews with? I guess you wpuld say he's a liar.
Don't know him. What's his name? What did he say? Did he even see Kerry in Vietnam?

Doug Reese

[clambake]

So I'm suppose to believe the word of three veterans Kerry knew over at least a dozen others that say he lied?

OK. I understand how you think anyway. You only care about what fits in your world. If you disagree with something, it a lie. If you agree with something, it's true.

Consider the... watch all five parts:

gWSFDSXHS4Y

you want me to watch "Lying parts 1 thru 5"?

[Wild Cobra]

Don't know him. What's his name? What did he say? Did he even see Kerry in Vietnam?

Doug Reese

I don't recall his name.

Question...

Why wouldn't Kerry allow all his records to be released during the ongoing controversy? If what you guys say is true, wouldn't that have been best to put it all to rest?

So many questions, like his discharge authority and date. Kerry ran on his war record in 2004, yet president Bush released all his records, Kerry didn't, and some liberal pundit forged records of a dead man against Bush.

Why wouldn't Kerry at least release enough to win the million dollar challange offered to him, to disprove the commercials?

[ChumpDumper]

I don't recall his name.:lmao

Well, I know this guy's name.

It's Doug Reese.

[Wild Cobra]

Don't know him. What's his name? What did he say? Did he even see Kerry in Vietnam?

Doug Reese
He knew Kerry but was not witness to the accounts. Three of his friends at the time witnessed and told him what happened. His name is Al French.

[Doug Reese]

He knew Kerry but was not witness to the accounts. Three of his friends at the time witnessed and told him what happened. His name is Al French.
So that's what you got -- Al French?

The man who tried to give the appearance he knew things, witnessed things, that he actually didn't witness.

You, of course, are very much aware of this, as your statement (above) is made the way he should have made it back in 2004. Then he would have avoided a little legal trouble with the Bar Asociation, no?

Doug Reese

[Wild Cobra]

So that's what you got -- Al French?

The man who tried to give the appearance he knew things, witnessed things, that he actually didn't witness.

You, of course, are very much aware of this, as your statement (above) is made the way he should have made it back in 2004. Then he would have avoided a little legal trouble with the Bar Asociation, no?

Doug Reese

There were more people than that, and if you followed things, you know better. I said he lives in my area, that I heard an interview with him.

Did you know French? He was there.

What boat did you say you were on?

Did you watch the YouTube link?

What about the doctor who treated his wound that gave him the first Purple Heart?

[ChumpDumper]

Did you know French? He was there.
He knew Kerry but was not witness to the accounts. Three of his friends at the time witnessed and told him what happened. His name is Al French.Forgive Wild Cobra, Doug. He contradicts himself like this all the time.

[Doug Reese]

So I'm suppose to believe the word of three veterans Kerry knew over at least a dozen others that say he lied?

OK. I understand how you think anyway. You only care about what fits in your world. If you disagree with something, it a lie. If you agree with something, it's true.

Consider the... watch all five parts:

gWSFDSXHS4Y
"Three"? "At least a dozen"?

Let's try this . . . . . ALL of the 12-13 guys who served on the boats Kerry commanded, except one, agree with Kerry.

Same for ALL of the 25 present for the Silver Star incident.

Same for at least 12 of the guys present for the March 13 Bronze Star incident

Your "dozen", I suppose, includes John O'Neill, ever-present on all five videos.

John O'Neill wasn't even in Vietnam at the same time as Kerry.

Troy Jenkins? Chas Plumley? Sorry, didn't serve with Kerry

You have 7 guys, not a "dozen" who say Kerry lied, who actually had seen Kerry in Vietnam, on a mission.

More on your chocked-full-of-lies video piece later. It's time for breakfast.

Doug Reese

[symple19]

Good troll

[ChumpDumper]

I wouldn't be too surprised if he is legit. There are ways of finding out if anyone really wants to bother.

[Doug Reese]

There were more people than that, and if you followed things, you know better. I said he lives in my area, that I heard an interview with him.

Did you know French? He was there.

What boat did you say you were on?

Did you watch the YouTube link?

What about the doctor who treated his wound that gave him the first Purple Heart?
No, I didn't know French. I also have no idea were he was in Vietnam, as he never seems to say.

I didn't say what boat I was on. Why don't you just ask directly?

I was an Army advisor. I didn't have a boat. We lived in a village. I was on different boats for the times (perhaps 8-10) we went out with the Swifts.

Yes, I watch the YouTube link . . . . again. All five of them.

Dr. Louis Letson either has a bad memory, or he is a liar. It's one or the other.

If you read the interview that he is usually quoted from (made earlier than this video, he states Kerry was on a Swift Boat and repeats comments from Kerry's crew), it is easy to see what I said is true. Bottom line -- his comments as they relate to the Purple Heart are that Kerry had a wound, and he treated it.

Doug Reese

[Shastafarian]

Good troll

If he's a troll he is a mighty good one.

[Doug Reese]

If he's a troll he is a mighty good one.
Why thank you . . . . umm, err, IF I was a troll. . . . . which I am not.

Actually, it's either that, or "He isn't Doug Reese" that is usually the response in these situations.

Pehaps it's a good way to avoid discussing the facts (or lies) of the matter.

Doug Reese

PS. Is it just me, or there a problem typing on this site?

[Shastafarian]

Why thank you . . . . umm, err, IF I was a troll. . . . . which I am not.

Actually, it's either that, or "He isn't Doug Reese" that is usually the response in these situations.That's basically the same thing. Some people think you're someone else "trolling" as Doug Reese.


Pehaps it's a good way to avoid discussing the facts (or lies) of the matter.

Doug Reese

PS. Is it just me, or there a problem typing on this site?

I'm not having any issues.

[sook]

does being the duaghter of the most Evil piece of shit on the planet make her evil too?

People give W. far too much credit for his faults. Its was this bitch's piece of shit father that doomed this nation. I hope that man takes in the flames of hell well.

[symple19]

I'm not disputing any of the things Mr. umm,err, Reese is saying. I'm mainly curious why someone would be compelled to continue arguing these points long after Sen Kerry has become irrelevant on the national political scene. Well, maybe not irrelevant, but certainly a non-issue in regards to him climbing to any higher office.

If you're stopping in to argue with the likes of Wild Cobra, you're better off arguing with a tree. Perhaps your ego is a little deflated now that you are no longer in the discussion about Mr. Kerry, and thus not relevant yourself? So you troll message boards to set the record straight with half brain idealogues like Wild Cobra? Hilarious.

Like I said, good troll

[Doug Reese]

I'm not disputing any of the things Mr. umm,err, Reese is saying. I'm mainly curious why someone would be compelled to continue arguing these points long after Sen Kerry has become irrelevant on the national political scene. Well, maybe not irrelevant, but certainly a non-issue in regards to him climbing to any higher office.

If you're stopping in to argue with the likes of Wild Cobra, you're better off arguing with a tree. Perhaps your ego is a little deflated now that you are no longer in the discussion about Mr. Kerry, and thus not relevant yourself? So you troll message boards to set the record straight with half brain idealogues like Wild Cobra? Hilarious.

Like I said, good troll
You're entitled to your opinion.

The relevance of what did, or did not happen, and the lies told about this subject is always relevant to those of us who were there.

It isn't about the election, or the national political scene.

You know nothing about my ego, and I never was "in the discussion".

I do agree with your comment about trees, though :)

Doug Reese

[Wild Cobra]

I didn't say what boat I was on. Why don't you just ask directly?

I was an Army advisor. I didn't have a boat. We lived in a village. I was on different boats for the times (perhaps 8-10) we went out with the Swifts.

I as because I found supporting evidence that a Doug Reese was on a particular boat when in action to get a Bronze Star. Wanted to see if your recollection matched the number. I guess if you were on several, it could be difficult.

I served 11 years, and I in no way want to discredit you if you were really there. I think you can understand with the lies and deceit that senator Kerry has been caught at over the years, it is easy to believe the stories negative about him.

Would you agree he sure was there for a short period and only had one injury that most people would consider deserving a Purple Heart?

Would you agree that being assigned to a Fast Patrol Craft was a relatively safe assignment until they changed it's mission in 1968?

There is also information showing good circumstantial evidence that Kerry was given a discharge action that took away his medals. Not only were they reinstated when he joined congress, but his discharge authority and date are in question. The discharge authority being of the same section of a bill authorizing status changed for deserters and other actions in the military. This has been documented, and Kerry has not allowed the question to be properly answered. I think it's about 100 pages of his records that are still not released.

Point is, this dishonesty and circumstance makes the disbelief of Kerrty as bad soldier continue.

[Doug Reese]

I as because I found supporting evidence that a Doug Reese was on a particular boat when in action to get a Bronze Star. Wanted to see if your recollection matched the number. I guess if you were on several, it could be difficult.

I served 11 years, and I in no way want to discredit you if you were really there. I think you can understand with the lies and deceit that senator Kerry has been caught at over the years, it is easy to believe the stories negative about him.

Would you agree he sure was there for a short period and only had one injury that most people would consider deserving a Purple Heart?

Would you agree that being assigned to a Fast Patrol Craft was a relatively safe assignment until they changed it's mission in 1968?

There is also information showing good circumstantial evidence that Kerry was given a discharge action that took away his medals. Not only were they reinstated when he joined congress, but his discharge authority and date are in question. The discharge authority being of the same section of a bill authorizing status changed for deserters and other actions in the military. This has been documented, and Kerry has not allowed the question to be properly answered. I think it's about 100 pages of his records that are still not released.

Point is, this dishonesty and circumstance makes the disbelief of Kerry as bad soldier continue.
I don't know how to do the multi-quote thing, so please bear with me while I reply, point by point.

There was only one Doug Reese involved in any of this. For the Silver Star action (Feb 28), I was on the 23 boat, which was commanded by Don Droz. Don was probably Kerry's closest friend in Vietnam. He was killed April 12, just six weeks after that incident.

I was with the Swifts for most of the day of the Bronze Star incident (Mar 13), but not when the actual incident for which he was awarded the medal occured. That happened after we had spent the morning up the same canal where the Silver Star incident happened. We were dropped off at our village, and then a few minutes later, as they headed out, one of the boats hit a mine.

I don't know for sure which boat I was on, but I know it wasn't Kerry's or Thurlow's, since they had Jim Rassmann (the SF guy) and his Nung's. That leaves Don Droz again . . . . and whoever the other Swift Boat was. The guess is that it was Droz's boat again.

All of his PHs were clearly deserved. If you cut through the BS of the Swift Boat Veterans for "truth", that is.

Ahh, the "Swifts were safe" smokescreen that is a favorite of the anti-Kerry crowd. Here's the problems with that . . . . . . first of all, something like 85% of the guys in VN were not in a combat situation. The vast majority never fired their weapon or saw the enemy.

When the Swifts were doing coastal patrol (this is the period you are talking about), it was far from safe. While not the most dangerous job, it did have something that was possible as part of their daily mission -- meeting up with the enemy. Most jobs in VN were much safer.

More later, as my computer is freezing up for some reason . . . .

Doug Reese