Nov 3, 2009 Elections to Watch

[MannyIsGod]

By far the biggest for me is the election in Maine. I would love to see civil rights take one more step forward as opposed to a step backwards, so I'm hoping all goes well there.

NY-23 is interesting, but not so much. A Dem win here would be pretty big, but a 3rd party win doesn't mean as much since its a typically GOP district.

New Jersey is a toss up, will probably be the one most pundits talk about if the GOP does win here. Pundits can drive public opinion and I'm worried about a GOP win here and how it might affect Health Care reform. If the GOP does win look for the conversation to quickly shift back to the trigger in Senate.

Locally the only initiative i care about is Prop Four. Vote YES imo.

[MannyIsGod]

Turnout in Maine reported to be much higher than expected (50%). Some pundits saying that's good for the pro gay marriage side and because that side tended to have a better ground game in this election I tend to agree but who really knows.

[Nbadan]

Looks like NBC has called Virginia for McDonnelL

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/

[Nbadan]

New Jersey isn't reporting yet.

NY Times has running totals (http://elections.nytimes.com/2009/results/new-jersey.html)

[Nbadan]

Here is the Virginia Map

Virginia State Baord of Elections (http://www.sbe.virginia.gov/cms/Election_Information/Election_Results/2009/November_General_Election.html)

[spursncowboys]

By far the biggest for me is the election in Maine. I would love to see civil rights take one more step forward as opposed to a step backwards, so I'm hoping all goes well there.

NY-23 is interesting, but not so much. A Dem win here would be pretty big, but a 3rd party win doesn't mean as much since its a typically GOP district.

New Jersey is a toss up, will probably be the one most pundits talk about if the GOP does win here. Pundits can drive public opinion and I'm worried about a GOP win here and how it might affect Health Care reform. If the GOP does win look for the conversation to quickly shift back to the trigger in Senate.

Locally the only initiative i care about is Prop Four. Vote YES imo.
It's good to see them putting it up to the people of the state, and not a judge.

[MannyIsGod]

Looks like NBC has called Virginia for McDonnelL

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/


No surprise there.

[Nbadan]

..NY-23 is a decidedly Republican district, with the GOP enjoying a 14-percentage point advantage in voter ID, according to Public Policy Polling...

[MannyIsGod]

Maine so far supporting marriage equality. Hope this holds up.

http://www.bangordailynews.com/electionresults.html

[MannyIsGod]

Chris Christie (R) 447,960 (52%)
Gov. Jon Corzine (D) 356,974 (42%)
Chris Daggett (I) 47,101 (6%)

So far.

[MannyIsGod]

Five Thirty Eight reporting:

Corzine looks to be projecting to 45-48 percent of the vote statewide.

Wth Daggett numbers much lower than expected so far all that means is that that this race will probably be incredibly close.

[MannyIsGod]

http://enr.sos.state.tx.us/enr/results/nov09_147_state.htm?x=0&y=1140&id=774

Prop four is doing good - i don't give a shit about most of the other props but thats where you can check.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

i guess christie wasn't that fat......................

[MannyIsGod]

NBC projecting Christie as the winner in NJ.

[Wild Cobra]

i guess christie wasn't that fat......................

Yeh, but they'll say he was fat enough to stuff extra ballots.

[Crookshanks]

WOO HOO!!!!! The Republicans win both Virginia and New Jersey! I guess all that campaigning by the annointed one didn't help the corrupt Corzine. Great night so far!

[Wild Cobra]

NBC projecting Christie as the winner in NJ.

It's about time. It was apparent he would win some 20 minutes ago or more. The NY 23 is surprising me. Is Dede Scozzafava's endorceing the democrat really having that much effect, or are the republicans staying home? I hope it's just that the early reporting districs are liberal, and the more conservative ones aren't in yet. At 31% reporting, Hoffman 43.9%, Owens 51.1%. Not looking good for Hoffman.

Could there be cheating? Polls clearly had Hoffman ahead.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

It's about time. It was apparent he would win some 20 minutes ago or more.
got an AP alert about 20 minutes ago

[Wild Cobra]

WOO HOO!!!!! The Republicans win both Virginia and New Jersey! I guess all that campaigning by the annointed one didn't help the corrupt Corzine. Great night so far!

And a sweep for the top 3 spots in Virginia.

Where were you? That was called an hour ago or more.

[balli]

Could there be cheating?
GMAFB :rolleyes

No.

Polls had Hoffman ahead with 18% undecided. And the undecideds doubled over the weekend. Obviously, they aren't pulling the lever for the scumbag. That's what you get for eating your own.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

eh. NY23 only has 21% reporting

[Wild Cobra]

eh. NY23 only has 21% reporting

Hmmm...

Geting slow news?

I have 39% reporting

29,035 49.8% Owens
26,283 45.1% Hoffman

Unlikely, but not impossible for Hoffman to get 3,000 more votes than Owens in the remaining unreported still.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Hmmm...

Geting slow news?

I have 39% reporting

29,035 49.8% Owens
26,283 45.1% Hoffman

Unlikely, but not impossible for Hoffman to get 3,000 more votes than Owens in the remaining unreported still.

ah. just looking at cnn.com
wish they have the area maps and all that stuff. looks like the gap is closing. what's the population of that district?

[Crookshanks]

And a sweep for the top 3 spots in Virginia.

Where were you? That was called an hour ago or more.

I know that - I was just waiting for them to call NJ.

[Crookshanks]

GMAFB :rolleyes

No.

Polls had Hoffman ahead with 18% undecided. And the undecideds doubled over the weekend. Obviously, they aren't pulling the lever for the scumbag. That's what you get for eating your own.

That's the thing - they didn't eat their own. The republican candidate was far more liberal than the average voter - she was really just a democrat with an R after her name.

What happened was that the conservatives stood up and said NO!

[Viva Las Espuelas]

GMAFB :rolleyes

No.

Polls had Hoffman ahead with 18% undecided. And the undecideds doubled over the weekend. Obviously, they aren't pulling the lever for the scumbag. That's what you get for eating your own.

scumbag?

[Wild Cobra]

ah. just looking at cnn.com
wish they have the area maps and all that stuff. looks like the gap is closing. what's the population of that district?654,360 by the 2000 census. 2008 turnout was 199,103.

Hoffman's not going to win.

63% reporting

46,646 49.3% Owen
42,958 45.4% Hoffman

[Wild Cobra]

GMAFB :rolleyes

No.

Polls had Hoffman ahead with 18% undecided. And the undecideds doubled over the weekend. Obviously, they aren't pulling the lever for the scumbag. That's what you get for eating your own.

Call it what you want, but I like RINO season.

[MannyIsGod]

Interesting if the Dems really do pull that seat out. I thought it was far more likely they'd hold on to NJ. I don't know what to think if they actually win NY23.

[Wild Cobra]

Interesting if the Dems really do pull that seat out. I thought it was far more likely they'd hold on to NJ. I don't know what to think if they actually win NY23.

My thought is that many Scozzafava supporters decided not to vote. Some are still voting for her. She has 5.4% of the vote after withdrawing. maybe some are supporting Owens since she endorced him also.

Still, it is a historical democrat district. Democrats 1923 to 1973 and 1979 to 1993. Republicans 1973 to 1979 and 1993 to 2009.

Much more time represented by democrats.

[George Gervin's Afro]

i like election nights...

[baseline bum]

Interesting if the Dems really do pull that seat out. I thought it was far more likely they'd hold on to NJ. I don't know what to think if they actually win NY23.

That association with Palin still remains a kiss of death for one's campaign?

[Wild Cobra]

That association with Palin still remains a kiss of death for one's campaign?
I think the kiss of death was the republican endorcing the democrat.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

That association with Palin still remains a kiss of death for one's campaign?
yep. a resounding 2.

[MannyIsGod]

That association with Palin still remains a kiss of death for one's campaign?

Actually Palin's endorsement helped Hoffman a lot.

[MannyIsGod]

My thought is that many Scozzafava supporters decided not to vote. Some are still voting for her. She has 5.4% of the vote after withdrawing. maybe some are supporting Owens since she endorced him also.

Still, it is a historical democrat district. Democrats 1923 to 1973 and 1979 to 1993. Republicans 1973 to 1979 and 1993 to 2009.

Much more time represented by democrats.

:lmao Thats some nice spin, but a look at the past 20 years of election coverage shows how much of a kick in the nuts this is to the GOP if a Democrat takes over.

I laugh just thinking about using your spin on the last congressional election.

[Wild Cobra]

Actually Palin's endorsement helped Hoffman a lot.

We agree there. I think Scozzafava being a vindictive cunt, and endorcing Owens screwed it all up.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

:lmao and i was waiting for the spin on this lone victory later on in the news.


didn't have to go far.

mmmm.mmmmm. mmmmm.

[Wild Cobra]

:lmao Thats some nice spin, but a look at the past 20 years of election coverage shows how much of a kick in the nuts this is to the GOP if a Democrat takes over.

I laugh just thinking about using your spin on the last congressional election.

Spin?

I pulled out those statistics because much of the media has been spinning it as a republican stronghold. This district actually splits rather evenly on other races. Definately not a republican stronghold.

As for a kick in the nutz for the GOP. Fantastic. I love it. If those fuckers keep running liberals, they can rot in hell.

[MannyIsGod]

It IS a republican stronghold - that is the point. You trying to paint it as a liberal district is amazing. What happened early in the 20th century is completely irrelevant.

Look at the recent margins and the fact that Dems haven't won here in 20 years.

[spursncowboys]

The fact that two obama states govenors went conservative should be the news, not NY23.

[spursncowboys]

Did Corzine lose because he didn't distance himself with the President?
Does Obama have the kiss of death?

[MannyIsGod]

The fact that two obama states govenors went conservative should be the news, not NY23.

Why? Both are news worthy. Why do you believe one is greater than the other?

[MannyIsGod]

Did Corzine lose because he didn't distance himself with the President?
Does Obama have the kiss of death?

:lol

According to exit polls no on both accounts.

[balli]

8cgHFCEHkRw
The legs are still moving.

[Wild Cobra]

It IS a republican stronghold - that is the point. You trying to paint it as a liberal district is amazing. What happened early in the 20th century is completely irrelevant.

Look at the recent margins and the fact that Dems haven't won here in 20 years.

I wasn't painting it as a liberal district.

I found a link earlier that had the other races about evenly mixed. This 20 year stronghold was only since 1993, and because of two well liked individuals.

Where did you learn math, or did I lose a few years. Is it already 2012?

[MannyIsGod]

You got me WC, I suck at subtraction. But at least you acknowledged it was a stronghold of the GOP.

Was.

[ChumpDumper]

Yes, now is the time for everyone to read way too much into three races.

Have at it.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Did Corzine lose because he didn't distance himself with the President?
Does Obama have the kiss of death?
not hardly. just one less than palin apparently. he better watch it.

[TheProfessor]

Did Corzine lose because he didn't distance himself with the President?
Does Obama have the kiss of death?
I don't think you know much about Corzine and New Jersey. He's awful and thoroughly corrupt.

[George Gervin's Afro]

:lmao and i was waiting for the spin on this lone victory later on in the news.


didn't have to go far.

mmmm.mmmmm. mmmmm.

CNN has a 'Big Night for GOP" headline...... is that the spin? Not bad for 'liberally biased' network acknowledging the GOP success huh?

[George Gervin's Afro]

I don't think you know much about Corzine and New Jersey. He's awful and thoroughly corrupt.

Corzine has been awwwful... he deserved to lose.

[MannyIsGod]

I wasn't painting it as a liberal district.

I found a link earlier that had the other races about evenly mixed. This 20 year stronghold was only since 1993, and because of two well liked individuals.

Where did you learn math, or did I lose a few years. Is it already 2012?

BTW, I'm fairly certain I know where you got your results from, but I'm going to give you some advice. Look to see what the district comprised prior to 1993 and then maybe you will understand why a Democrat "won".

[MannyIsGod]

If Democrats win NY-23 in a special election to be held later this year, it will therefore be the first time in 159 years that a Democrat is elected to represent at least a part of the district. The map below gives you an idea of how long it's been since parts of the district have been Democratic-held. Almost two-thirds of the population of the current district (62%) live in territory that has not elected a Democrat since 1890 or earlier. It really is mind-boggling .... (for those political geeks interested in more history about this district, I provide additional information below the map).

http://www.thealbanyproject.com/diary/6516/amazing-political-history-of-ny23

[baseline bum]

Actually Palin's endorsement helped Hoffman a lot.

It may have put him on the map, but she's extremely polarizing and poison to the independent voters who always decide these elections.

[spursncowboys]

hoffman was the third pary candidate. The republicrat didn't drop out until two days ago. Put her 5-6% she got and hoffman would have won. this is more of a show of the rnc's inability to put the right small govt. guys that will keep the base happy and be electable.

[whottt]

She's more popular than she is polarizing, McCain was going nowhere until he added her to the ticket and the fund raising surge and turnout to see her speak was huge. Then the media and Democrats made her a victim by going after her kids and or turning a blind eye to it.

She's not just popular with pro-lifers, I'm not a pro-lifer and I like her. And Roe VS Wade really has no teeth any more.


I don't see the doom forecast over her being at odds with the Republican party either...


Just a quick history lesson, she lost the bid for LT Governor of Alaska(doesn't seem to do good in elections she goes for a subordinate postion), then she went after the Republican Party, then she became the Governor.


Along the way, she QUIT, her post on the Oil and Gas board...I guess because she couldn't handle politics :).

[MannyIsGod]

It may have put him on the map, but she's extremely polarizing and poison to the independent voters who always decide these elections.

Actually these elections are rarely decided by independents but rather partisans. And if you look at the demographics of this district they are very much the kind that favor Palin type candidates.

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao @ the mention of Palin bringing Whott out.

[whottt]

Anyway...I'll be surprised if some Republicans aren't voted in over the next few elctions...country seldom stays totally swung in one direction for very long.

I don't think having a crapload of parties is ever good thing as it allows extremists to win elections...but since both parties suck and are leading the people instead of the other way around, hopefully some 3rd party candidates will get some spots as well.

[spursncowboys]

She's more popular than she is polarizing, McCain was going nowhere until he added her to the ticket and fund raising surge and turnout to see her speak was huge. Then the media and Democrats made her a victim by going after her kids.

She's not just popular with pro-lifers, I'm not a pro-lifer and I like her. And Roe VS Wade really has no teeth any more.


I don't see the doom forecast over her being at odds with the Republican party either...


Just a quick history lesson, she lost the bid for LT Governor of Alaska, then she went after the Republican Party, then she became the Governor.


Along the way, she QUIT, her post on the Oil and Gas board...I guess because she couldn't handle politics :).

Every conservative is the same thing for dems - first they call them stupid, then crazy, and then heartlless. the biggest problem with palin is she didn't go to the party elites and get their blessing or water down her message for them. If I remember her problems came when mccain tried to dim her down.

[baseline bum]

Actually these elections are rarely decided by independents but rather partisans. And if you look at the demographics of this district they are very much the kind that favor Palin type candidates.

Apparently they aren't since the Palin type candidate lost.

[baseline bum]

Every conservative is the same thing for dems - first they call them stupid, then crazy, and then heartlless. the biggest problem with palin is she didn't go to the party elites and get their blessing or water down her message for them. If I remember her problems came when mccain tried to dim her down.

The biggest problem for Palin is she played the pitbull attack-dog one second and cried victim the next. You can't base your whole campaign on slinging mud and then get pissed when it comes back to you.

[MannyIsGod]

Apparently they aren't since the Palin type candidate lost.

I guess what I'm saying is that if there was a place where Palin was going to be effective it would be in a place like this. In any event, Hoffman doesn't have a chance without Palin's endorsement.

[whottt]

Every conservative is the same thing for dems - first they call them stupid, then crazy, and then heartlless. the biggest problem with palin is she didn't go to the party elites and get their blessing or water down her message for them. If I remember her problems came when mccain tried to dim her down.


Like Darrin pointed out...everytime they go the stupid route the Republican wins.


I'm not sure if the socialist route has a similar effect...although I do think something similar occurred when Carter won.


What works best against the Republicans is glossing them as religious fantatics(or when they run a war hero) and what works best against the Democrats is glossing them as pussies.

[Crookshanks]

Hoffman got into the race late - so I still think he did pretty good, considering. If the Republicans had held a primary instead of selecting such an awful candidate, Hoffman would've probably won. Scozzafava was a lib masquarading as a Republican, and she deserved to get kicked out of the race. The fact that she went and endorsed the democrat tells you all you need to know about her.

This should serve as a wake up call to the Republican party - don't give us liberal candidates. We don't want Democrat lite - we want real conservatives.

Since this was a special election, is the winner up for re-election again next year? If so, it will be interesting to see who runs against him.

[Crookshanks]

Well Manny - the people of Maine have spoken loud and clear - NO GAY MARRIAGE! Has there been any state where the voters approved it?

[PixelPusher]

Actually these elections are rarely decided by independents but rather partisans. And if you look at the demographics of this district they are very much the kind that favor Palin type candidates.
Apparently not.


Palin has bad numbers in NY-23 (http://publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com/2009/11/palin-has-bad-numbers-in-ny-23.html)
Sarah Palin's not getting elected President in 2012.

We had plenty of data points to tell us that already but I find it fascinating that a plurality of voters have an unfavorable opinion of her even in NY-23.

43% view her favorably to 44% negative. This is in a poll with a party ID breakdown of R+14 that shows Doug Hoffman leading by 17 points. If Palin's not popular in an electorate with that mix she's not going anywhere nationally.

NY-23 is a district with an unusual number of moderate Republicans, and Palin's favorability with them breaks down negatively 53/32. She could overcome those kinds of numbers in a contest to get the Republican nomination but they certainly wouldn't be good enough in a general election. The North Country should be friendly ground for her and if she can't make it there it's hard to see how she can make it anywhere.
Posted by Tom Jensen at 2:00 PM

^ bear in mind this was posted earlier this afternoon.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Damn whottt loves Palin so much. I'd still jam her. She's so hot.

LOL texans are geared from birth to automatically vote in favor of almost any amendment or proposition ever

[PixelPusher]

Hoffman got into the race late - so I still think he did pretty good, considering. If the Republicans had held a primary instead of selecting such an awful candidate, Hoffman would've probably won. Scozzafava was a lib masquarading as a Republican, and she deserved to get kicked out of the race. The fact that she went and endorsed the democrat tells you all you need to know about her.

This should serve as a wake up call to the Republican party - don't give us liberal candidates. We don't want Democrat lite - we want real conservatives.

Yeah, you shouldn't let the results of NY-23 alter your strategy for the future one iota. Keep purging the "moderates" (we all know that's just a euphamism for liberal!) and replacing them ideologically pure conservatives; conservatives so pure, they're not even from the district they're running for, lest their purity become contaminated with filthy, "parochial (http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/article/20091023/OPINION01/310239957/-1/OPINION)" issues.

[PixelPusher]

Yes, now is the time for everyone to read way too much into three races.

Have at it.

"All politics is local." - Tip O'Neil.

/thread

[baseline bum]

Well Manny - the people of Maine have spoken loud and clear - NO GAY MARRIAGE! Has there been any state where the voters approved it?

Gotta love it when a popular vote overrides the constitution.

[boutons_deux]

WC lives in a fantasy world of his own spinning.

Dems taking the solidly Repug backwater NY-23, after all the Repug national and state (TX Good Hair) heavyweights and rogue pitbull bitches pushed their local tool, is amazing.

MUCH more meaningful than the Dems losing in racist, Southern VA, and corrupt bankster, very unpopular Dem Corzine losing in NJ.

[ElNono]

Did Corzine lose because he didn't distance himself with the President?
Does Obama have the kiss of death?

I live here. Corzine lost because he's fucking terrible.
Jacked up all sorts of taxes and tolls and the State deficit kept on ballooning out of control. Plenty of corruption too, I hear.
Now, Christie also looks like guy straight out of the Sopranos, so I don't think we're getting any better anytime soon.

Hope I'm wrong.

[Wild Cobra]

BTW, I'm fairly certain I know where you got your results from, but I'm going to give you some advice. Look to see what the district comprised prior to 1993 and then maybe you will understand why a Democrat "won".
I know about the rdistricting, and I didn't get my info from your next posting.

Still, other races in the area have been about evenly split between democrats and republicans as long as it has been the 23rd.

[SpurNation]

Republican Wins in Virginia, New Jersey Build Momentum for 2010

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/11/03/republican-wins-in-virginia-new-jersey-build-momentum-for-2010/?icid=main|htmlws-sb-n|dl1|link2|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicsdaily.com%2F2 009%2F11%2F03%2Frepublican-wins-in-virginia-new-jersey-build-momentum-for-2010%2F

[MannyIsGod]

I know about the rdistricting, and I didn't get my info from your next posting.

Still, other races in the area have been about evenly split between democrats and republicans as long as it has been the 23rd.

Of course you didn't get the info from my next posting. If you had you wouldn't have been posting such BS about Democrats winning so recently.

You got it from Wikipedia. I know for a fact you got it from there.

[MannyIsGod]

Apparently not.

^ bear in mind this was posted earlier this afternoon.

Actually did you notice what the post said? If she can't win in places like this then its fairly hopeless for her because thats as good as its going to get.

[MannyIsGod]

You know, nothing saddens me more than the situation with same sex marriage. I think its such an anti American position and every time it fails it simply reminds me how stupid people are in this country. Look at Crookshanks cheering on the continued repression of Americans.

I take heart in the fact it was so close, and as little as 5 or 6 years ago it would not have been so close. I still can't fathom why others chose to keep other Americans from equality, but I understand this nation is changing and sometimes that change takes longer than is right or we would like.

[MannyIsGod]

Hoffman got into the race late - so I still think he did pretty good, considering. If the Republicans had held a primary instead of selecting such an awful candidate, Hoffman would've probably won. Scozzafava was a lib masquarading as a Republican, and she deserved to get kicked out of the race. The fact that she went and endorsed the democrat tells you all you need to know about her.

This should serve as a wake up call to the Republican party - don't give us liberal candidates. We don't want Democrat lite - we want real conservatives.

Since this was a special election, is the winner up for re-election again next year? If so, it will be interesting to see who runs against him.

If this loss is a wake up to the GOP to go more conservative then I don't think you realize the conservative candidate had so much going for him yet....

Lost.

[ElNono]

You know, nothing saddens me more than the situation with same sex marriage. I think its such an anti American position and every time it fails it simply reminds me how stupid people are in this country. Look at Crookshanks cheering on the continued repression of Americans.

I take heart in the fact it was so close, and as little as 5 or 6 years ago it would not have been so close. I still can't fathom why others chose to keep other Americans from equality, but I understand this nation is changing and sometimes that change takes longer than is right or we would like.

I honestly think a generation or two in the future are going to look back at this discrimination by sexual preference and they're going to feel a whole lot like what most people feel nowadays when looking back at racial discrimination. Pretty stupid.

[SpurNation]

What I hope is that people vote their conscious and not along party lines. Some might say this is a referendom to Obama's policies but I don't think so.

I think it is people finally being able to separate the partisan from their true beliefs. That would be great for America.

Issues such as same sex marriage...even though I'm not a proponent of...could care less if somebody wants to live their personal life the way they want. What I'm opposed to is the government saying I would HAVE to accept that personal issue through law. Again...if people want to live their personal life the way they seem fit...there shouldn't be a law that says you can't either.

[Supergirl]

It's good to see them putting it up to the people of the state, and not a judge.

Which of your civil rights would you like to put up to the people to decide if you deserve?

Do you really think Black people would be allowed to vote or marry white people if we had let the people decide this?

[balli]

You know, nothing saddens me more than the situation with same sex marriage. I think its such an anti American position and every time it fails it simply reminds me how stupid people are in this country. Look at Crookshanks cheering on the continued repression of Americans.

I take heart in the fact it was so close, and as little as 5 or 6 years ago it would not have been so close. I still can't fathom why others chose to keep other Americans from equality, but I understand this nation is changing and sometimes that change takes longer than is right or we would like.

It's pretty fucking sad that some people can be such bigots and assholes, but such is America. What's mind-boggling is that plenty of said bigots would like to cast themselves as libertarian warriors of some sort. Anti-federalists who hate the government, until they use it to restrict the civil rights of minorities.

And Crookshanks is one of, if not the single biggest bitch in America. I know republicans are evil for the most part, but I'd like to think most of them are a step above the lowly scum we refer to as crookshanks.

[spursncowboys]

Which of your civil rights would you like to put up to the people to decide if you deserve?

Do you really think Black people would be allowed to vote or marry white people if we had let the people decide this?
Any civil rights not protected by the bill of rights should be decided by the states. I don't see what civil rights has to do with gay marriage. Being gay is a life choice. What is wrong with a union. Marriage should stay one man and one woman.
The bill of rights was created by the people. The Jim Crow law was created by judges, not the people. Abolitionists were started by the people, not by judges.

[Supergirl]

Any civil rights not protected by the bill of rights should be decided by the states. I don't see what civil rights has to do with gay marriage. Being gay is a life choice. What is wrong with a union. Marriage should stay one man and one woman.
The bill of rights was created by the people. The Jim Crow law was created by judges, not the people. Abolitionists were started by the people, not by judges.

Oh really? Then straight couples should give up all 1, 138 rights granted to married couples, because those aren't civil rights, either.

Black people did not have any legal rights long before the Jim Crow laws, homeslice. Check your history books. Black people would not have the right to vote had it not taken judicial action.

Being gay may or may not be a "choice" - the science is not currently on your side on this one, but it's also not clearly decided - but so is getting married. You don't HAVE to get married. You can even get married in a religious ceremony without getting married by the state.

It's a right awarded by the state. And as long as the state is granting rights to SOME citizens and not ALL citizens, that is the VERY DEFINITION OF DISCRIMINATION.

[101A]

I don't see what the big deal is.

If a gay man and woman want to get married to each other, they should be able to.

[MannyIsGod]

Any civil rights not protected by the bill of rights should be decided by the states. I don't see what civil rights has to do with gay marriage. Being gay is a life choice. What is wrong with a union. Marriage should stay one man and one woman.


So, to surmise, women shouldn't vote, we should still have slavery, and the voting age should not be 18.

Right?



The bill of rights was created by the people. The Jim Crow law was created by judges, not the people. Abolitionists were started by the people, not by judges.

LOL What? Unicorns, Mermaids, and weird incorrect history, OH MY.

[PixelPusher]

I don't see what the big deal is.

If a gay man and woman want to get married to each other, they should be able to.

Heretic. You shall be purged.

[ElNono]

I don't see what the big deal is.

If a gay man and woman want to get married to each other, they should be able to.

How dare you! Think of the children!

[101A]

How dare you! Think of the children!


Children?

How?

[Crookshanks]

And Crookshanks is one of, if not the single biggest bitch in America. I know republicans are evil for the most part, but I'd like to think most of them are a step above the lowly scum we refer to as crookshanks.

Wow - I thought Sarah Palin held that title. Now I really feel special. :lmao

You are to be pitied balli - you have so much hate for someone you don't even know. And the main reason for your hate is that I have strong convictions and beliefs that are contrary to yours. You are a sad, sad little man.

[SpurNation]

I will admit that our government should allow the act of marriage between gays if that is what the individual wants to do. Forcing a church (religion) on the other hand to have to accept this principle is not the right of the government to decide.

To each their own as long as they pay for their own and not extrapulate from those that might oppose the belief.

Unfortunately government involvement would deny fiscal rights of an opposing view.

[Wild Cobra]

Of course you didn't get the info from my next posting. If you had you wouldn't have been posting such BS about Democrats winning so recently.

You got it from Wikipedia. I know for a fact you got it from there.

I was at other sites as well. I saw the election results for the 23rd. The congressional race isn't the only race in the area you know. If the computer I was on wasn't a public computer, and saved history, I could easily find it again. I'm not going to even bother with someone "stuck on stupid."

[spursncowboys]

Oh really? Then straight couples should give up all 1, 138 rights granted to married couples, because those aren't civil rights, either.

Black people did not have any legal rights long before the Jim Crow laws, homeslice. Check your history books. Black people would not have the right to vote had it not taken judicial action.

Being gay may or may not be a "choice" - the science is not currently on your side on this one, but it's also not clearly decided - but so is getting married. You don't HAVE to get married. You can even get married in a religious ceremony without getting married by the state.

It's a right awarded by the state. And as long as the state is granting rights to SOME citizens and not ALL citizens, that is the VERY DEFINITION OF DISCRIMINATION. What civil rights should married couples give up? WHat the hell are you talking about?
I brought up Jim Crow because it was a bad piece of law that was created by a judge. Not the elected reps b to the rian.
What judicial action gave black people the right to vote? Is it this: [Amendment XV to the U.S. Constitution -
Passed by Congress February 26, 1869. Ratified February 3, 1870.

"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude."]



If science is inconclusive, how can it lean towards one side or the other? WHat proof have scientists found that might make a consideration of gay people being born with it?

What state? Which state right? It's not discrimination. It is also no way similar to racism or sexism.

[Supergirl]

List of rights denied to same sex married couples in places where marriage is limited by gender: http://www.religioustolerance.org/mar_bene.htm

Summary of the current state of the research on sexual orientation and biology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation

I was thinking of Brown v. Board of Education, which obviously did not give Black people the right to vote, but the right to participate fully in society. This change would never have come about without court intervention. In many parts of the country it still hasn't really come about. The comparison to the oppression of gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people is so striking it's ridiculous, unless you're deliberately trying to not see it.

[ElNono]

Children?

How?

I was being sarcastic... taking a page out of The Simpsons whenever something morally debatable was about to happen...

Carry on

[Crookshanks]

Speaking of watching - Obama didn't watch the election returns. Instead, he was watching a documentary about himself! :lmao It was an HBO documentary about Obama's year-long campaign. Geez - is that guy full of himself or what?

[Supergirl]

Speaking of watching - Obama didn't watch the election returns. Instead, he was watching a documentary about himself! :lmao It was an HBO documentary about Obama's year-long campaign. Geez - is that guy full of himself or what?

Funny, all the news outlets reported that he watched the Bucks-Bulls game.

[MannyIsGod]

I was at other sites as well. I saw the election results for the 23rd. The congressional race isn't the only race in the area you know. If the computer I was on wasn't a public computer, and saved history, I could easily find it again. I'm not going to even bother with someone "stuck on stupid."
:lmao

Its so easy to peg you. So damn easy.

[MannyIsGod]

What civil rights should married couples give up? WHat the hell are you talking about?
I brought up Jim Crow because it was a bad piece of law that was created by a judge. Not the elected reps b to the rian.
What judicial action gave black people the right to vote? Is it this: [Amendment XV to the U.S. Constitution -
Passed by Congress February 26, 1869. Ratified February 3, 1870.

"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude."]



If science is inconclusive, how can it lean towards one side or the other? WHat proof have scientists found that might make a consideration of gay people being born with it?

What state? Which state right? It's not discrimination. It is also no way similar to racism or sexism.

:lol

Do you know what the Bill of Rights is? Hint: the 15th Amendment isn't part of it.

Do you know what Jim Crow laws were? Hint: They weren't created by judges.

[Crookshanks]

Obama Watched HBO Special About Himself Instead of Election Results
By Kyle Drennen (Bio | Archive)
November 4, 2009 - 11:20 ET

During the 10AM ET hour of America’s Newsroom on Fox News Channel, fill-in co-host Martha Maccallum told viewers what President Obama watched on election night while Democrats suffered big losses in New Jersey and Virginia: “Robert Gibbs said, well, he was actually watching, you know, the HBO special about his year-long campaign and how it all went.”

On Tuesday night the White House had worked to downplay the Democratic gubernatorial defeats by claiming the President did not watch the election returns. Apparently Gibbs thought it would look better if the commander in chief was watching a self-indulgent fawning documentary about himself. Interestingly, Obama apparently previewed the HBO special a few days earlier, as Gibbs himself explained to the blog Talking Points Memo: “White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs says Obama has already seen ‘By the People’...Gibbs told TPMDC Obama’s review: ‘Thumbs up!’”

On FNC, Maccallum noted: “...we know that Michelle and the girls went to the Miley Cyrus concert last night... So he’s all alone in that big house, right? Nothing to do but sit back and watch – reminisce about the long campaign and watch HBO and the special.” The HBO documentary, ‘By the People,’ debuted on Tuesday, in commemoration of

[spursncowboys]

:lol

Do you know what the Bill of Rights is? Hint: the 15th Amendment isn't part of it.

Do you know what Jim Crow laws were? Hint: They weren't created by judges.

What judicial action gave black people the right to vote? Is it this: [Amendment XV to the U.S. Constitution -
Passed by Congress February 26, 1869. Ratified February 3, 1870.

"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude."


Yes. For you: http://www.jimcrowhistory.org/history/creating2.htm
Good luck trolling.

[spursncowboys]

Obama Watched HBO Special About Himself Instead of Election Results
By Kyle Drennen (Bio | Archive)
November 4, 2009 - 11:20 ET

During the 10AM ET hour of America’s Newsroom on Fox News Channel, fill-in co-host Martha Maccallum told viewers what President Obama watched on election night while Democrats suffered big losses in New Jersey and Virginia: “Robert Gibbs said, well, he was actually watching, you know, the HBO special about his year-long campaign and how it all went.”

On Tuesday night the White House had worked to downplay the Democratic gubernatorial defeats by claiming the President did not watch the election returns. Apparently Gibbs thought it would look better if the commander in chief was watching a self-indulgent fawning documentary about himself. Interestingly, Obama apparently previewed the HBO special a few days earlier, as Gibbs himself explained to the blog Talking Points Memo: “White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs says Obama has already seen ‘By the People’...Gibbs told TPMDC Obama’s review: ‘Thumbs up!’”

On FNC, Maccallum noted: “...we know that Michelle and the girls went to the Miley Cyrus concert last night... So he’s all alone in that big house, right? Nothing to do but sit back and watch – reminisce about the long campaign and watch HBO and the special.” The HBO documentary, ‘By the People,’ debuted on Tuesday, in commemoration of
The cheerleaders are turning this nonsense into an issue.

[ElNono]

Obama Watched HBO Special About Himself Instead of Election Results
By Kyle Drennen (Bio | Archive)
November 4, 2009 - 11:20 ET

During the 10AM ET hour of America’s Newsroom on Fox News Channel, fill-in co-host Martha Maccallum told viewers what President Obama watched on election night while Democrats suffered big losses in New Jersey and Virginia: “Robert Gibbs said, well, he was actually watching, you know, the HBO special about his year-long campaign and how it all went.”

On Tuesday night the White House had worked to downplay the Democratic gubernatorial defeats by claiming the President did not watch the election returns. Apparently Gibbs thought it would look better if the commander in chief was watching a self-indulgent fawning documentary about himself. Interestingly, Obama apparently previewed the HBO special a few days earlier, as Gibbs himself explained to the blog Talking Points Memo: “White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs says Obama has already seen ‘By the People’...Gibbs told TPMDC Obama’s review: ‘Thumbs up!’”

On FNC, Maccallum noted: “...we know that Michelle and the girls went to the Miley Cyrus concert last night... So he’s all alone in that big house, right? Nothing to do but sit back and watch – reminisce about the long campaign and watch HBO and the special.” The HBO documentary, ‘By the People,’ debuted on Tuesday, in commemoration of

Do you have an actual quote from Gibbs from last night?

This is what I found: LINK (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2009/11/obama-no-election-watching-for-him/1)

Not that I really care what Obama watches on TV...

EDIT: Here's Gibbs transcript from last night... link (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/briefing-white-house-press-secretary-robert-gibbs-11309)

No mention of HBO in all of it... not surprisingly....

[MannyIsGod]

The 15th Amendment is not in the Bill of Rights. How difficult of a concept is this?

Jim Crow laws were not enacted by any judges. How difficult of a concept is this?

[spursncowboys]

List of rights denied to same sex married couples in places where marriage is limited by gender: http://www.religioustolerance.org/mar_bene.htm

Summary of the current state of the research on sexual orientation and biology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation

I was thinking of Brown v. Board of Education, which obviously did not give Black people the right to vote, but the right to participate fully in society. This change would never have come about without court intervention. In many parts of the country it still hasn't really come about. The comparison to the oppression of gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people is so striking it's ridiculous, unless you're deliberately trying to not see it.
I looked at wikipedia and didn't find any facts siding with gay people being born that way. I don't believe wiki should be cited, except using their cite for a starting point. Just my opinion. About the rights denied to same-sex married couples. I respectfully disagree. However I believe in our states being able to make the decision, better than an unelected judge. My opinion. That was my original comment. You brought up civil rights for gays. Since there is no proof to show that someone is born with a different gene that makes them gay, this is an opinion.

[MannyIsGod]

I looked at wikipedia and didn't find any facts siding with gay people being born that way. I don't believe wiki should be cited, except using their cite for a starting point. Just my opinion. About the rights denied to same-sex married couples. I respectfully disagree. However I believe in our states being able to make the decision, better than an unelected judge. My opinion. That was my original comment. You brought up civil rights for gays. Since there is no proof to show that someone is born with a different gene that makes them gay, this is an opinion.

[101A]

I was being sarcastic... taking a page out of The Simpsons whenever something morally debatable was about to happen...

Carry on


Damn.

I'm getting old.

[spursncowboys]

The 15th Amendment is not in the Bill of Rights. How difficult of a concept is this?

Jim Crow laws were not enacted by any judges. How difficult of a concept is this?
Please reread what my comment says. Then look at my link.

[jack sommerset]

Obama the liar took a hit last night. Not that it should have surprised anyone. The dude lied his ass off. Now he is paying for it. Next year even more.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Obama the liar took a hit last night. Not that it should have surprised anyone. The dude lied his ass off. Now he is paying for it. Next year even more.

yeah he only picked two more seats in the house..OUCH!

[baseline bum]

I wonder if any church was behind this crap, like the Mormons were with the California vote? That entire church should have lost its tax-exempt status for becoming a political institution when they dumped all that money into the California vote.

[Supergirl]

I wonder if any church was behind this crap, like the Mormons were with the California vote? That entire church should have lost its tax-exempt status for becoming a political institution when they dumped all that money into the California vote.

The Catholic church pumped a ton of money into the Maine anti-gay measure.

[Wild Cobra]

Please reread what my comment says. Then look at my link.
You have to remember that Manny is so stupid, he thinks he's smarter than everyone else. A real diety. Not much point in arguing with him. I often ignore the ass like I do Chuppy-chimp.

[spursncowboys]

The Catholic church pumped a ton of money into the Maine anti-gay measure.
Good. Spending money in politics is a protected freedom of speech. That is a right. Not getting married. Or healthcare.

[Supergirl]

What part of this don't people understand: THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT GRANTS 1,138 RIGHTS TO PEOPLE SOLELY BECAUSE THEY ARE MARRIED. If you want to abolish this practice, fine, lobby for that. But it is blatantly and unarguably unconstitutional to grant rights to SOME citizens and not others.

[baseline bum]

Good. Spending money in politics is a protected freedom of speech. That is a right. Not getting married. Or healthcare.

It is good. They shouldn't be tax-exempt as a political institution.

[spursncowboys]

It is good. They shouldn't be tax-exempt as a political institution.
You are saying that the catholic church is a political institution?

[Winehole23]

You are saying that the catholic church is a political institution?Are you familiar with European history?

[Winehole23]

The Vatican is still a principality, or something like that, I think.

[admiralsnackbar]

I wonder if any church was behind this crap, like the Mormons were with the California vote? That entire church should have lost its tax-exempt status for becoming a political institution when they dumped all that money into the California vote.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/10/despite-claims-anti-gay-group-in-maine.html

In a fundraising plea to his mailing list this past week, Marc Multy, the President of the anti-gay marriage Group Stand for Marriage Maine, described his opponents as having "amassed a war chest from the homosexual political elite from nearly every corner of the country to impose their will on Mainers like us."

Indeed, the pro-gay marriage group No on 1 Protect Maine Equality has raised more than $2.30 million in itemized contributions from outside the state of Maine; this is more than the $1.82 million that Stand for Marriage Maine has raised from out-of-state.

However, most of No on 1's advantage is based on its substantial edge in fundraising from within the state of Maine. No on 1 has raised $1.89 million from 3,766 unique contributors within the state, whereas Stand for Marriage Maine has raised just $677,000 from 422 contributors, putting it at nearly a 3:1 disadvantage. All told, No on 1 has raised 43 percent of its funds from within Maine, as compared with 26 percent for the Yes on 1 campaign.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5ieXw28ZUpg/SuR9MGo0lxI/AAAAAAAABXA/e8Wyydx30LA/s400/meme4.png (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5ieXw28ZUpg/SuR9MGo0lxI/AAAAAAAABXA/e8Wyydx30LA/s1600-h/meme4.png)

Additional detail on fundraising by the two groups, as gathered from the State of Maine's Campaign Finance Website (http://www.mainecampaignfinance.com/Public/home.asp), is below.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ov-pT1x-W8Y/SuN-5mpRAWI/AAAAAAAADRU/2lNVw8ykNHY/s400/meme3.png (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ov-pT1x-W8Y/SuN-5mpRAWI/AAAAAAAADRU/2lNVw8ykNHY/s1600-h/meme3.png)

You will probably notice the large disparity in the average size of the contribution that each group has received: $3,862 for the anti-gay marriage group, versus $419 for No on 1. This is because Stand for Marriage Maine is exceptionally dependent on just two large donors: the New Jersey-based National Organization for Marriage, from which it has received $1,622,152, and the Roman Catholic Diocese of Portland (ME), from which it has received $529,666. Collectively, these two group's represent 83 percent of Yes on 1's fundraising. In addition, the Roman Catholic Diocese of Portland accounts for 81 percent of its in-state fundraising; without its contributions, Stand for Marriage Maine would have received just $127,218 in contributions from Mainers.

Protect Maine Equality, to be sure, has also benefited from some
heavyweight donors, earning $526,000 from Maine-based businessman Donald Sussman, and $267,589 from the Human Rights Campaign. And indeed, if you cull its donor list, you'll find a few big-name Hollywood celebrities: it's gotten $2,000, for instance, from Rob Reiner, $5,000 from David Geffen, and $10,000 from former U.S. Ambassador to Luxembourg James Hormel.

Overall, however, its top 10 donors represent just 36 percent of its total fundraising haul, as compared to 91 percent for Yes on 1. Most of its contributions, rather, come from small donors, who account for its 9-to-1 advantage in the number of unique, itemized contributors within Maine, and its 28-to-1 advantage in its number of unique donors from outside the state.

Although it is always risky to generalize from a single example -- particularly given that the Yes on 1 campaign has been fairly inept (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/10/arguments-against-gay-marriage.html) -- it would seem that the grassroots energy on this issue has reversed (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/09/gay-marriage-is-fading-as-values-focal.html), with the pro-gay marriage side feeling more emboldened than the traditional marriage groups. This is true both outside the state of Maine and within it.

(http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=4257917002416684161&postID=2723222177451283257)
...see also 2009 elections (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/search/label/2009%20elections), fundraising (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/search/label/fundraising), gay rights (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/search/label/gay%20rights), maine (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/search/label/maine)

[Wild Cobra]

What part of this don't people understand: THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT GRANTS 1,138 RIGHTS TO PEOPLE SOLELY BECAUSE THEY ARE MARRIED. If you want to abolish this practice, fine, lobby for that. But it is blatantly and unarguably unconstitutional to grant rights to SOME citizens and not others.

I am all for just that.

The only reason why government got int marriage was so they could discriminate. I say abolish all recognitioons of marriage, make people enter into contractual agreements if they want.

A government recognized marriage doesn't mean shit except for finanial perks.