Italian judge convicts 23 CIA agents in kidnap case

[nkdlunch]

the good ol'CIA


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091104/ap_on_re_eu/eu_italy_cia_trial

Italian judge convicts 23 in CIA kidnap case

By COLLEEN BARRY, Associated Press Writer Colleen Barry, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 23 mins ago

MILAN – An Italian judge on Wednesday convicted 23 Americans in absentia of the 2003 kidnapping of an Egyptian cleric from a Milan street, in a landmark case involving the CIA's extraordinary rendition program in the war on terrorism.

Citing diplomatic immunity, Judge Oscar Magi told the Milan courtroom Wednesday that he was acquitting three other Americans.

Former Milan CIA station chief, Robert Seldon Lady, received eight years in prison. The other 22 convicted American defendants each received a five-year sentence.

The Americans, all but one identified by prosecutors as CIA agents, were tried in absentia as subsequent Italian governments refused or ignored prosecutors' extradition request.

In Washington, CIA spokesman George Little declined to comment on the convictions. He said, "The CIA has not commented on any of the allegations surrounding Abu Omar," the kidnapped man.

Lawyers for the 23 convicted Americans said they would appeal the convictions. The Americans remain fugitives from Italian justice and prosecutor Armando Spataro said he was considering asking the government to issue an international arrest warrant on the strength of the conviction. The government of Silvio Berlusconi, a close ally of President George W. Bush, has previously refused.

Magi said he was acquitting five Italian defendants because an Italian high court ruled key evidence inadmissible as classified. Two of the Italian defendants were convicted as accomplices to kidnapping and received three-year sentences.

The verdict "sends a strong signal of the crimes committed by the CIA in Europe," said Joanne Mariner of Human Rights Watch. The crimes were "unacceptable and unjustified," said Mariner, who was in the courtroom for the verdict at the end of the nearly 3-year-long trial.

The Americans were accused of kidnapping Osama Moustafa Hassan Nasr, also known as Abu Omar, on Feb. 17, 2003, in Milan, then transferring him to U.S. bases in Italy and Germany. He was then moved to Egypt, where he says he was tortured. He has since been released, but has not been permitted to leave Egypt to attend the trial.

The trial is the first by any government over the CIA's extraordinary rendition program, which transferred suspects overseas for interrogation. Human rights advocates charge that renditions were the CIA's way to outsource the torture of prisoners to countries where it is permitted.

The Milan proceedings have been a sore spot in relations between the United States and Italy. The CIA has declined to comment on the case, and Italy's government has denied involvement.

Among the Americans acquitted was Jeffrey Castelli, a former Rome CIA station chief, who prosecutors had alleged coordinated the abduction. The two other acquitted Americans were also assigned to the U.S. Embassy in the Italian capital and thus were covered by broad diplomatic immunity.

The trial continued despite obstacles that threatened to derail it, including Rome's refusal to cooperate with prosecutors.

In addition, Italy's highest court ruled some key evidence inadmissible because it is considered classified — including dossiers seized from the Rome apartment of an Italian intelligence agent and the testimony of a carabinieri officer allegedly at the scene of the kidnapping. That ruling was cited in the acquittal of the main Italian defendants, including the former head of military intelligence.

The government's will to enforce the verdict against the Americans, however, is unlikely to be tested any time soon. Sentences in Italy aren't served until all appeals are exhausted, a process that can take years.

The court also ruled that those convicted must pay 1 million euros to the Egyptian in damages and 500,000 euros to his wife.

[rjv]

che bene! bravisimo !

[Winehole23]

I'm not too crazy about trials in absentia, but can understand why it happened.

[DarkReign]

So, they basically tried and convicted people who they will never incarcerate.

Yeah, way to go Italy. Anymore of your taxpayer's money you want to waste? Ive got this sweet island right on the...

[velik_m]

So, they basically tried and convicted people who they will never incarcerate.

Yeah, way to go Italy. Anymore of your taxpayer's money you want to waste? Ive got this sweet island right on the...

Remember Polanski?

[boutons_deux]

The principle (remember those?) is extremely important.

The Great American People would feel equally violated if Italian CIA took people off the US streets, without judicial warrants, and sent them to foreign countries to be tortured.

[Winehole23]

The difference is, we wouldn't try them in absentia. That's a principle too.

[Winehole23]

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/exclusive-convicted-cia-spy-broke-law/story?id=8995107

[Winehole23]

The operation to capture Abu Omar was part of the CIA's extraordinary rendition program, according to U.S. intelligence officials involved in his transfer. The kidnapped cleric was held in Egypt for four years and says he was repeatedly tortured there by Egyptian interrogators.



He was never charged with a crime and ultimately set free. He remains in Alexandria, Egypt.



"He was the wrong guy," said Baer. "It was not worth putting the reputation of the United Sates on the line going after somebody like this."

[Winehole23]

The kidnapping was discovered and linked to the CIA by Italian authorities due to "sloppy" tradecraft, according to U.S. officials. Much of the evidence used in the trial involved cellphone records of the CIA team assembled to take Abu Omar.



"They were using e-mail, they were calling home, the Italians were able to connect their credit cards with true names and true addresses," said former CIA officer Bob Baer.



"I did these same things under the Reagan administration," Baer told ABCNews.com "When we did a rendition, we did it in international waters. The Bush administration threw all caution to the wind."

[ElNono]

So, they basically tried and convicted people who they will never incarcerate.

Yeah, way to go Italy. Anymore of your taxpayer's money you want to waste? Ive got this sweet island right on the...

It's the right thing to do and the US does it all the time.
As soon as one of these guys leaves the US, they can be extradited. Which basically forces them to stay in the US and away from the rest of the world.

[DarkReign]

It's the right thing to do and the US does it all the time.

Youre smart, so I am not going to say youre wrong, but...

When was the last time the United States tried and convicted someone in absentia?

I dont even think we did that for Osama bin Laden, and if it wasnt done then, well, I cant think of another.

[DarkReign]

Remember Polanski?

Yes, but he wasnt tried in absentia, he was standing trial while on bail and as soon as it became clear he was going to lose, he bolted (iirc).

[velik_m]

Yes, but he wasnt tried in absentia, he was standing trial while on bail and as soon as it became clear he was going to lose, he bolted (iirc).

Point being: never say never.

[DarkReign]

Point being: never say never.

I never did say "never". The US doesnt try people in absentia, to my knowledge (thats without looking it up, mind you). Polanski being a guy who fled the country while in the closing stages of his trial.

The two cases (Italians trying the CIA agents vs the US trying Polanski) are not the same.

[velik_m]

I never did say "never".


So, they basically tried and convicted people who they will never incarcerate.

[spurster]

No, the US does not have trials in absentia. However, I'm sure the defendants in this case were given plenty of time to show up. If they are afraid of Italy's system, perhaps they could provide written testimony to demonstrate their innocence to the world.

[Ginobilly]

This is exactly the reason why a lot of countires hate the US. It's that cocky attitude that US leader officials express, thinking that UN laws don't apply to US agencies. How would we like it if Spain/France all of a sudden start kidnapping and torturing our citizens(your fun lovable Arab/Indian store owner who sells you after hour beer), then all of a sudden, "my bad, they're not Alqueada". We would be out looking for justice.

[boutons_deux]

aka, US "exceptionalism".

US does whatever the fuck it wants, but no other country better try to do the same, esp if it's a non-Euro and/or non-Christian and/or non-white country.

[ElNono]

Youre smart, so I am not going to say youre wrong, but...

When was the last time the United States tried and convicted someone in absentia?

I dont even think we did that for Osama bin Laden, and if it wasnt done then, well, I cant think of another.

You're right in that the US does not convict in absentia.
However, what I was responding to was the 'they'll never incarcerate' part.
The US does exactly the same as Italy did in this case, which is to put a capture request with Interpol. As soon as one of these guys steps on a country with an extradition treaty with Italy, they're screwed.

[nkdlunch]

So, they basically tried and convicted people who they will never incarcerate.

Yeah, way to go Italy. Anymore of your taxpayer's money you want to waste? Ive got this sweet island right on the...

have you ever heard the term "making a point"?

[nkdlunch]

The US doesnt try people in absentia

:lmao

Saddam Hussein: Guilty as charged

Osama Bin Laden: Guilty as charged

Manuel Noriega: Guilty as charged

etc, etc, etc

[DarkReign]

:lmao

Saddam Hussein: Guilty as charged

Osama Bin Laden: Guilty as charged

Manuel Noriega: Guilty as charged

etc, etc, etc

Hussein: tried in Iraqi Court, not in absentia

Bin Laden: to my knowledge, has never been on trial, therefore cannot be convicted.

Noriega: ditto

This is an argument about being tried in absentia, which to my knowledge, is not practiced by the American government.

[nkdlunch]

Hussein: tried in Iraqi Court, not in absentia

Bin Laden: to my knowledge, has never been on trial, therefore cannot be convicted.

Noriega: ditto

This is an argument about being tried in absentia, which to my knowledge, is not practiced by the American government.


have you ever heard the term "making a point"?

[DarkReign]

@velik_m

Ahhh, now I see the point you were making. I thought you were saying I was wrong that America has never tried someone in absentia, but you were asserting the "never to be incarcerated" to be wrong.

Which, in retrospect, is true.

[admiralsnackbar]

Maybe somebody can educate me on this: were Gitmo detainees allowed to attend their trials? Honest question.

[DarkReign]

@nkd

Youre still not making one.

You listed three people who were either tried in court in person or who were never tried in court at all, thus making your point a moot one.

[DarkReign]

Maybe somebody can educate me on this: were Gitmo detainees allowed to attend their trials? Honest question.

I believe so, in that they were present at trial (if there even was one for them).

Obviously, being a military tribunal, their rights were severly limited.

[nkdlunch]

Youre still not making one.

You listed three people who were either tried in court in person or who were never tried in court at all, thus making your point a moot one.

let me help you out you seem not to be understanding.

Italy was making a point, letting the CIA and other Intelligence agencies know not to come to their country and do that kinda shit. It is a good way of making that point IMO.

BTW, if you are arrested for reckless driving/dui/etc,etc and not show up in your court date in the US. The judge hands you the sentence "in absentia"

[admiralsnackbar]

BTW, if you are arrested for reckless driving/dui/etc,etc and not show up in your court date in the US. The judge hands you the sentence "in absentia"

It wasn't clear to me, though: were the CIA operatives notified they were being tried?

[DarkReign]

This is exactly the reason why a lot of countires hate the US. It's that cocky attitude that US leader officials express, thinking that UN laws don't apply to US agencies. How would we like it if Spain/France all of a sudden start kidnapping and torturing our citizens(your fun lovable Arab/Indian store owner who sells you after hour beer), then all of a sudden, "my bad, they're not Alqueada". We would be out looking for justice.

Yes, very true. With as little sarcasm as I can muster, does Spain have veto rights in the UN?

No, they do not. I think France does however.

Personally, I know a lot of Americans feel the same as me about this, I say fuck the UN with a 10ft rigged stick of thorns.

But thats me and has nothing to do with the CIA's rendition program (of which I am thoroughly opposed, btw).

[DarkReign]

BTW, if you are arrested for reckless driving/dui/etc,etc and not show up in your court date in the US. The judge hands you the sentence "in absentia"

Not germane to the conversation as the two situations are completely different in nearl every respect.

[DarkReign]

It wasn't clear to me, though: were the CIA operatives notified they were being tried?

They did have representation there, according to the article.

[nkdlunch]

It wasn't clear to me, though: were the CIA operatives notified they were being tried?

dude, they ran away for that reason. come on they are the CIA. im sure they were tipped off.

Again, this was all to make a point. I dont see why ppl are bitching about it. Good move by italian court IMO.

[DarkReign]

dude, they ran away for that reason. come on they are the CIA. im sure they were tipped off.

I do not know that they fled Italy at all.

It seems to me that post-rendition, the Italian government launched and investigation and followed the breadcrumbs, so to speak.

They were probably long gone beforehand and it had nothing to do with said investigation.

But I dont know one way or the other. You may be right, I may be right, who knows?


Again, this was all to make a point. I dont see why ppl are bitching about it. Good move by italian court IMO.

I am not bitching, as I said, renditon is a horrible way to conduct business internationally (unless youre talking about grabbing people in international waters, like some former Reagan bureaucrat suggested).

But I am arguing against the trial and conviction of American citizens in Italy without them actually being present for their defense, regardless of whether the American government is complicit or not. Its bad form and completely contradictory to any country who holds the law and due process above any misdeed.

[Winehole23]

A former CIA officer has broken the U.S. silence around the 2003 abduction of a radical Islamist cleric in Italy, charging that the agency inflated the threat the preacher posed and that the United States then allowed Italy to prosecute her and other Americans to shield President George W. Bush and other U.S. officials from responsibility for approving the operation.

Confirming for the first time that she worked undercover for the CIA in Milan when the operation took place, Sabrina De Sousa provided new details about the “extraordinary rendition” that led to the only criminal prosecution stemming from the secret Bush administration rendition and detention program launched after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/07/27/197823/us-allowed-italian-kidnap-prosecution.html?sp=/99/395/151/#storylink=cpy

[Winehole23]

More than 130 people were “rendered” in this way, according to a February 2013 study by the Open Society Justice Initiative, a U.S.-based group that promotes the rule of law. Many were tortured and abused, and many, including Nasr, were freed for lack of proof that they were hatching terrorist plots, said Amrit Singh, the study’s author.

Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/07/27/197823/us-allowed-italian-kidnap-prosecution.html?sp=/99/395/151/#storylink=cpy

[Wild Cobra]

Did I miss something, or is there no mention of this being a joint operation with SISMI, which was disbanded in 2007 because of this and other abuses of power...

What our CIA did may have been because of the trust of working with them.

[Winehole23]

all 130 times?