Assignment thread -- God

[Homeland Security]

The assignment; answer to follow.


A hypothetical situation. For purpose of your thread you'll have to accept this hypothetical situation as fact.

Tomorrow God reveals himself to all of us. He is essentially what we expected. He is in fact the creator of everything we know. He offers to help realign our planet with peace and harmony. He'll serve as a mentor and mediator to all the worlds countries. He is all that is good and positive. He's the epitome of perfection and tranquility. His presence is designed to bring us all together as one whole world.

Over the next two or so weeks he also reveals that even though he created this world and all the worlds around us he can't or won't or hasn't ever decided the fate of any one man, women, child or animal. He's given us the power to ultimately choose our own paths free of his powers of control. He still commands our worship as our God. He arrived to help us right our wrongs but that will not nor ever consist of genocide. It will never consist of him control anything mortal as a pawn. He created it but will never control it. Only preach to it.

Along with this he's also revealed that as our creator he didn't create any form of salvation or afterlife. Just out state of being. We are in turn randomly reincarnated as another child. Completely free and separate of our past lives. Who we are has no effect on who we become next. Its just a cycle of life.

How does this change things? Does it change things for those who devote their entire lives to his worship? With no afterlife and no heaven or hell so to speak after our death....do the most devout or for that matter anyone still worship our creator for what he really. The birth of everything we know.

[stretch]

oh this is great

[Höfner]

I want a cigarette after reading that. You've solved the rubix cube of life.

[Extra Stout]

If you trace religious ideas from the Sumerians on forward, you see that originally there was no belief in the afterlife. People saw things they couldn't explain and attributed them to a god or gods. Then they decided that if they placated the god/gods, maybe their crops would grow or they would have more children or they would defeat their enemies. Then they devised elaborate rituals and behavior codes to placate the god/gods.

Then at some point Greek philosophers decided that there needed to be an afterlife to give a reason for people to be moral and to be self-sacrificing in this life, and several religions, including Judaism, jumped on that bandwagon.

So the idea of a religion with no afterlife is hardly new.

I think today there are several kinds of religion out there, especially the liberal kind, that preach doing good for the sake of doing good, without any kind of deal-making with God or rigid dogma. So I guess if there were a God, and he revealed himself that way, those people would be vindicated.

But at the same time, if you look at some philosophers today, they talk of this "undeconstructible principle" of truth and justice which everyone dimly perceives but nobody can quite put their finger on. They say this "principle" is what people call "god;" not any kind of great metaphysical power or creator being, but rather just a calling to be good that people for whatever reason have inside themselves. (I think they're grasping to create meaning after having determined that really there is none.)

I think it's a moot point; there isn't going to be any revelation from any god. But if there were, people who worship a god because they think he's going to give them something are just selfish people with supernatural beliefs, so what you're going to end up with is a devout-sounding self-absorbed prick who just turns into an ordinary self-absorbed prick. Altruistic people are going to do good things whether or not they believe in a god -- so they'll just adapt their religious system. The super-dogmatic people will claim that this god is really the devil.

[Extra Stout]

Yes, Extra Stout and Homeland Security are the same person, and no, I don't believe in God anymore. So there.

[BacktoBasics]

I've always believed that most people do good because of the unknown consequence of judgment. Wouldn't this change the game completely? With no more consideration for salvation whether you're devout or not wouldn't it be just as prudent for society to go apeshit.

[Bender]

OP is not contributing anything. B2B better give him an F. Unless E.S. wasn't kidding.

[Höfner]

Yes, Extra Stout and Homeland Security are the same person, and no, I don't believe in God anymore. So there.

God is inconceivable when you really ponder on it. Why even try to imagine what he needs or wants?

Second, I'll never understand why people take the Bible for instance, and say its "God's Word." That's circular reasoning because men wrote it, even if God supposedly inspired it. Man's word is not God's.

[DarkReign]

Yes, Extra Stout and Homeland Security are the same person, and no, I don't believe in God anymore. So there.

Bullshit on a stick, theist. I dont mean that as a derogatory term.

[DarkReign]

Another thing, I always thought HS was a whottt troll. I suck at picking trolls out, apparently.

[tsb2000]

God is inconceivable when you really ponder on it. Why even try to imagine what he needs or wants?

Second, I'll never understand why people take the Bible for instance, and say its "God's Word." That's circular reasoning because men wrote it, even if God supposedly inspired it. Man's word is not God's.

You are correct; hence the mystery of faith. There is no way we could even begin to understand God's reasoning.(Is 55:8) God could explain everything He does to you and your only gurarantee is you will not understand a word.

Also correct is that God did not write the Bible. People did. In fact, the books of the Bible were written decades apart from each other. Even the gospels are men's accounts of the life of Jesus Christ. The fundamentalists have it all too wrong when it comes to the interpretation of the Bible.

[Extra Stout]

I've always believed that most people do good because of the unknown consequence of judgment. Wouldn't this change the game completely? With no more consideration for salvation whether you're devout or not wouldn't it be just as prudent for society to go apeshit.
How many people really do good as opposed to just staying in line? I don't see a whole hell of a lot of people making a lifestyle out of sacrificing for the betterment of others, and among those who do, I don't necessarily see a whole lot of correlation with religious belief.

And somehow Europe has managed not to completely implode so far despite widespread irreligion. We'll see though. Religion serves as a good unifying myth for civilizations; in its stead, civilizations will have to come up with something else.

[BacktoBasics]

I do believe that ES is HS. Its all good.

[BeefAnus II]

God is inconceivable when you really ponder on it. Why even try to imagine what he needs or wants?

Second, I'll never understand why people take the Bible for instance, and say its "God's Word." That's circular reasoning because men wrote it, even if God supposedly inspired it. Man's word is not God's.
1. they never asked what he needs or whats, their asking how would no salvation or damnation affect devout worshipers of god
2. If a king sends a messenger to the next kingdom east and the messenger goes to that king as tell him the message, yes the message was spoken by the messenger but they were the kings words his thoughts. that's what they say that means, alturnativly think of a secratary writing a letter down for her boss, his thoughts she wrote it.

[BacktoBasics]

How many people really do good as opposed to just staying in line? I don't see a whole hell of a lot of people making a lifestyle out of sacrificing for the betterment of others, and among those who do, I don't necessarily see a whole lot of correlation with religious belief.

And somehow Europe has managed not to completely implode so far despite widespread irreligion. We'll see though. Religion serves as a good unifying myth for civilizations; in its stead, civilizations will have to come up with something else.Valid point but I think most non-believers will always have that "what if" buried deep in the back of their heads. Sure we've come a long way in disproving modern day religion but the question of higher power has yet to be sufficiently quelled. If there is something I'm comfortable saying that it's not like anything we grew up expecting. With that said the notion alone could keep people from going off the deep end. They might bend or break the rules but generally be decent. With definitive proof of what our creator really is wouldn't that open the door for the best of the worst.

[BeefAnus II]

Valid point but I think most non-believers will always have that "what if" buried deep in the back of their heads. Sure we've come a long way in disproving modern day religion but the question of higher power has yet to be sufficiently quelled. If there is something I'm comfortable saying that it's not like anything we grew up expecting. With that said the notion alone could keep people from going off the deep end. They might bend or break the rules but generally be decent. With definitive proof of what our creator really is wouldn't that open the door for the best of the worst.
well with solid proof that their is a god, church attendance would go up lol

[tlongII]

What if God was one of us?

[BacktoBasics]

well with solid proof that their is a god, church attendance would go up lol
Well that brings up the basic question. Do people attend church to worship their maker or attend church because he offers salvation and chance for a positive after life?

Remove after life from the equation does his existence really hold value?

[BeefAnus II]

Well that brings up the basic question. Do people attend church to worship their maker or attend church because he offers salvation and chance for a positive after life?

Remove after life from the equation does his existence really hold value?
to most i would say no what like 35% of Americans still go to church regular, and with most already left who dont care either way i think that number would be more than cut in half, but their still would be some who would serve god dispite gaining nothing

[JamStone]

I've always believed that most people do good because of the unknown consequence of judgment. Wouldn't this change the game completely? With no more consideration for salvation whether you're devout or not wouldn't it be just as prudent for society to go apeshit.

I have a similar inclination. I think it would result in chaos, at least to a greater extent then what there is now. More crime, more infidelity, more disregard for common decency.

But I don't think it would be the whole "golden calf" chaos where basically the entire world is that way. I think some people would still choose to do/be good out of their own personal value system and just feeling better about themselves. I don't think the "moral dilemma" people have is always rooted in religion.

I would question my faith in God though if he revealed himself in this way, at least as it pertains to my worship. If he is only a creator and does nothing else, no judgment, no love or mercy, no afterlife, no deeper spiritual relationship, then isn't more or less a "hey, thanks for creating me" and give-a-child-up-for adoption type of scenario?

I'm a spiritual person. I grew up as a Catholic and in a rather devout Catholic family at that. Church every Sunday, went to Catholic grade school and high school, was an altar boy, baptized and confirmed and all of that. But, I still question my faith and have since I was like 12. I believe in a greater being and a Creator, but I don't know exactly who he or she is or how everything falls in line with everything else. When I see or read about horrible things happening to good people, especially young children, I question why a god would allow "free choice" of man to hurt the innocent. I question why bad people get rewarded with success and happiness. I believe in something. And, most of the time, I believe in Christianity even though I don't agree with all of its doctrines and dogma. But, I question it often and still have doubts. I readily admit and acknowledge that every "god" in the history of the world and all religions and faiths could basically be a social construct to justify law, to discern right from wrong with purpose and consequence. And, I do wonder about a lot of things if there really is an all powerful God.

If this is how "God" actually was and how he revealed himself, I think it would breakdown the unifying fabric of a lot of people, families, and communities, which could be just as bad as the chaos that might result from it.

[clambake]

don't stop there, ES.

[Homeland Security]

One thing I've learned is that while "spiritual" progress is slow to the point of being non-existent despite the alleged presence of supernatural power to assist, progress in other areas in my life is rapid and profound when I depend on my own power and intelligence.

I can speak things into existence; with my intellect I can build people into greatness or destroy them. I can build organizations the way I want them. I make broken things work. I turn losses into enormous profits. I can develop young people into the employees I want them to be. I can destroy people with ease. They try to lie and scheme and cheat to undermine me but they are no match. I see the world starting to change because of the work I personally am doing.

I am powerful and it is intoxicating. Casting off the shackles of faith is the best thing I have ever done. It was holding me back.

[clambake]

One thing I've learned is that while "spiritual" progress is slow to the point of being non-existent despite the alleged presence of supernatural power to assist, progress in other areas in my life is rapid and profound when I depend on my own power and intelligence.

I can speak things into existence; with my intellect I can build people into greatness or destroy them. I can build organizations the way I want them. I make broken things work. I turn losses into enormous profits. I can develop young people into the employees I want them to be. I can destroy people with ease. They try to lie and scheme and cheat to undermine me but they are no match. I see the world starting to change because of the work I personally am doing.

I am powerful and it is intoxicating. Casting off the shackles of faith is the best thing I have ever done. It was holding me back.
excellent.

so you've found your way to manipulate the characters and your wants without the need for religion as a tool of power and persuasion.

[stretch]

1. they never asked what he needs or whats, their asking how would no salvation or damnation affect devout worshipers of god
2. If a king sends a messenger to the next kingdom east and the messenger goes to that king as tell him the message, yes the message was spoken by the messenger but they were the kings words his thoughts. that's what they say that means, alturnativly think of a secratary writing a letter down for her boss, his thoughts she wrote it.

this

wow beefanus actually has some decent posts that make sense

keep it up, anus

[BeefAnus II]

this

wow beefanus actually has some decent posts that make sense

keep it up, anus
i'll put my beef into it

[Blake]

You are correct; hence the mystery of faith. There is no way we could even begin to understand God's reasoning.(Is 55:8) God could explain everything He does to you and your only gurarantee is you will not understand a word.

Then he sucked at creating man.


Also correct is that God did not write the Bible. People did. In fact, the books of the Bible were written decades apart from each other. Even the gospels are men's accounts of the life of Jesus Christ. The fundamentalists have it all too wrong when it comes to the interpretation of the Bible.

(Is 55:8): "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.

so did Isaiah write the book by himself or did God tell him in a declaration what to write.

[Blake]

this

wow beefanus actually has some decent posts that make sense

keep it up, anus

nah, it still fails.

The message of the Bible is inconsistent.

[sabar]

Nothing would change with this revelation. The only people that would go nuts are the ones whose sanity is only held together by their faith. They are the extreme minority and would get put down quickly.

Also, living a life of pure evil would be against common sense. If you start murdering, raping, and stealing because of this then you quickly realize that everyone else can too. The problem? You'll get reborn into the chaotic world that you contributed towards. It is in everyone's best interest to stay civil. The only other alternative is human extinction so you are not reborn into chaos.

The religious would continue to worship or move on. A few will go nuts.


How many people really do good as opposed to just staying in line? I don't see a whole hell of a lot of people making a lifestyle out of sacrificing for the betterment of others, and among those who do, I don't necessarily see a whole lot of correlation with religious belief.

Easily the majority do good. Most people would not pull the trigger of a gun pointed at someone even if they were assured there would be no consequences. Most people won't leave a child drowning in a fountain even if no one will ever know if they didn't do it. Rational agents throw themselves on grenades to save people they barely know. Our altruism is instinctive towards our species. Humans are not individuals by nature; they are part of a society, a family, a community. We tend to act like a pack of dogs, not a lone cat. This feeling of family diminishes with higher tiers of organization (family, neighbor, community, city, state, world).

Religion is not needed to make a rational argument towards acting morally good. Many philosophers figured this out ages ago when religion was far more widespread than it is now. All the reincarnation revelation does is reinforce these points, because you are brought back into the world that you are destroying. If anyone would go nuts, it should be atheists who think there is nothing post death and hence your actions would have no consequences on you after you die. Yet, they act just as much in line as anyone else.

[JamStone]

Interesting take that has some merit and value, but I don't completely agree.

While I do think there would be some--maybe more than I initially had thought even--who would remain morally good and civil out of common decency, I think there would be a marked spike in chaos and disregard for common decency, including significant rise in crimes like murder, rape, robbery, as well as selfish acts of indulgence like adultery and promiscuity/fornication.

I don't believe altruism is instinctive. I think it's a social construct born out of man's need for reason, just like religion. You take out certain givens from the notion of human life, and you take away some of the need for certain social constructs, at least to some degree. Some people, perhaps many, do good out of their sense of common decency, yet that sense is predicated on each person's notion of either religion or some other man-construct of rules and law, whether or not it's by its foundation related to faith.

I have to believe with what is assumed in the original post, that there would be enough people to take it towards the direction of anarchy to a greater degree than it is now to make it pretty significant. For tens of thousands of years, if not longer, there has been religion to guide man and it didn't prevent hundreds of civil wars, empire building, World Wars, massacres, nationwide to worldwide slavery, along with other atrocities we've seen in the history of man. You give individuals the notion that there is no notion of judgment or consequence at a higher level beyond prison, and then you give individuals reason to do things only once imaginable on larger scales by kings and empires and nations.

Would it be full blown chaos? Perhaps not. But, the world is already fucked up the way it is... despite religion and perhaps in part because of it. There are millions of examples currently and in the history of the world proving what man is capable of if given reason, or scarier given no reason. That's with religion and faith and a widely regarded idea of afterlife already believed by the majority of the world. You change it and you change the mindset of millions, maybe more.

Altruism isn't an instinct. Humans are not born with a sense of common decency or a moral value system. Those are all social constructs. At base, we are animalistic, primordial, savage. Reason made man different and he had to invent religion in order to justify his reason. Change the notions of religion, you change his reason.