Crazy Joe Calls Ft. Hood Attack ....Terrorism

[Nbadan]

Lieberman is off his meds again....

Lieberman wants probe into 'terrorist attack' by major on Fort Hood
By Bridget Johnson - 11/08/09 09:38 AM ET



Homeland Security Chairman Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.) said Sunday that he intends to launch a congressional investigation into the motives behind "the worst terrorist attack since 9/11" -- the slaying of 13 people at Fort Hood by an Army major who, Lieberman said, reportedly showed signs of being a "self-radicalized, homegrown terrorist."

Reports of Major Nidal Malik Hasan have included statements justifying suicide bombings and shouting "Allahu Akbar!" ("God is great!") at the scene as he went on Thursday's shooting spree, Lieberman noted.

"It's premature to reach conclusions about what motivated him," Lieberman said on "Fox News Sunday," but added that indications range from the major being under personal stress over an impending deployment to various reports that "he had turned to Islamist extremism."

"If that is true, then this was a terrorist act," Lieberman said.

"This is not the first attempt by Islamist extremists to go after U.S. military bases," the senator added, noting foiled plots to attack Fort Dix and Quantico and the shooting death of an Army recruiter in Little Rock, Ark., by a Muslim convert this summer.

There are indications that Hasan supported that act, Lieberman said.

The Homeland Security chairman also urged the Department of Defense to launch an independent investigation "to see if warning signs were missed."

The military, said Lieberman, needs to have "zero tolerance" for those expressing extremist views. "He should have been gone," the senator said

The HIll (http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/66859-lieberman-wants-probe-into-terrorist-attack-on-fort-hood)

You see....Joe wants to use this tragedy to turn the military into an all-christian, all-Israeli army.....anyone else should be investigated.....

[hope4dopes]

Alright Joe.

[Nbadan]

I wonder if Joe would be pro-terrorist attack if the guys name was Smith? Jones? Wakaaski?

[Drachen]

Lieberman is off his meds again....

Lieberman wants probe into 'terrorist attack' by major on Fort Hood
By Bridget Johnson - 11/08/09 09:38 AM ET


The HIll (http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/66859-lieberman-wants-probe-into-terrorist-attack-on-fort-hood)

You see....Joe wants to use this tragedy to turn the military into an all-christian, all-Israeli army.....anyone else should be investigated.....

All-christian?? Don't you think he might like some Jews in there too?

Oh and "Self-radicalized home grown terrorist"? doesn't that just mean the dude went crazy?

[Nbadan]

all-christian, all-Israeli army

:hat

[Nbadan]

Oh and "Self-radicalized home grown terrorist"? doesn't that just mean the dude went crazy?

So by Joe's definition every time anyone decides to play shoot-em-up, its a terror attack...or he is just redefining terror to when a guy with a Islamic-sounding name decides to shoot people - that is terrorism...

[hope4dopes]

I wonder how much more blood will be sacrificed on the altar of political correctness.

[hope4dopes]

So by Joe's definition every time anyone decides to play shoot-em-up, its a terror attack...or he is just redefining terror to when a guy with a Islamic-sounding name decides to shoot people - that is terrorism.......and.......screams allah akbar,post on jihadist websites, and glorifies suicide bombers.

[Nbadan]

...I don't think anyone is arguing that this dude was crazy....but a terrorists?

What exactly qualifies him as a terrorists? Posting about suicide bombers?

What's a jihad website? A Muslim website?

Was he actively involved with others to conspire to kill U.S. service men on Ft.Hood? Now that's terror....seems to me that you and Crazy Joe wanna call the act of a lone gun-man - terror.....instead of what it really was - murder.......because of the guy's name..

[DarrinS]

...I don't think anyone is arguing that this dude was crazy....but a terrorists?

What exactly qualifies him as a terrorists? Posting about suicide bombers?

What's a jihad website? A Muslim website?

Was he actively involved with others to conspire to kill U.S. service men on Ft.Hood? Now that's terror....seems to me that you and Crazy Joe wanna call the act of a lone gun-man - terror.....instead of what it really was - murder.......because of the guy's name..


According to you, 911 wasn't a terrorist attack because you are one of those "twoofer" idiots. Your posts have ZERO credibility.

[hope4dopes]

Perhaps you're right, perhaps we should just call it a muslim inspired "hate crime". It's funny though there seems to be a worldwide epidemic of muslim men "going crazy", and butchering people, they need help.
If I may, perhaps we could start a sort of Obamaesque "virgin"s crusade". You know we could get self loathing white people to join americorp and volunteer to go to the Islamic world and offer help to these fustrated souls, who go around butchering people.
I wonder how many of you were outraged when our idiotic press was trying to push the story, that this guy snapped under the pressure of being harassed by whites in the military calling him rag head or camel jockey. of course as the numbers started mounting and his history of antiwesteren became known they shelved that angle.

[Nbadan]

According to you, 911 wasn't a terrorist attack because you are one of those "twoofer" idiots. Your posts have ZERO credibility.

So, attacking someone because they propose a opinion that you are unable to intelligently debate makes their opinion worthless - check....

[DarrinS]

So, attacking someone because they propose a opinion that you are unable to intelligently debate makes their opinion worthless - check....

Dude gives away all his furniture, hands out Qurans, goes to the base, yells out "Allah Akbar!" and starts spraying bullets into a crowd of defenseless people, including spouses and children of servicemen.


Nah, doesn't sound like terrorism to me.

[Yonivore]

If not terrorism, what?

[DarrinS]

If not terrorism, what?

Post traumatic stress disorder -- obviously.

Sincerely,

MSM that can't even say the word "Muslim".

[Nbadan]

Do you think non-Muslim American troops say prayers when they are putting their lives at risk in war?

Would you?

[hope4dopes]

They're pretty good at getting their tounges wrapped around "right wing extremists".

[Nbadan]

If not terrorism, what?

....suicide?

....mental instability brought on by PTSD...

any number of things...

[hope4dopes]

Do you think non-Muslim American troops say prayers when they are putting their lives at risk in war?

Would you? Are you really this stupid.

[Winehole23]

Rather than assuming the issue settled and demanding an alternate countervailing explanation, why not take your own postion seriously. Define the term terrorism and show how it applies to what Major Hasan did.

I know it when I see it isn't analysis, still less an argument.

[Nbadan]

Yep....you really have to look at Joe's motives here......

..either Joe portrays Hasan as a 'terrorists' without redefining the term he likes to throw-about..

..or, the military has to admit it has a problem because a psychologists, trained in the U.S. military, just shot up a bunch of his own guys...

[Yonivore]

Post traumatic stress disorder -- obviously.

Sincerely,

MSM that can't even say the word "Muslim".
I think they're tagging it, "PTSD by proxy," if I'm not mistaken.

However, real PTSD victims are unamused by the media and administration's contortions to make Hasan into a victim...and, in the process, making the true victims Hasan counseled out to be the villains. It is a cruel irony bona fide victims of PTSD have this nonsense inflicted on them at home.

J.R. Salzman is one such victim (http://www.jrsalzman.com/post/2009/11/07/PTSD.aspx) who expresses his outrage over Obama and the media's reluctance to "jump to conclusions" about Hasan's motives.


"If you can get PTSD from treating soldiers at Walter Reed Army Medical Center then why the hell haven't more people snapped? Why haven't all the therapists in physical therapy and occupational therapy, and all the staff on Ward 57 r[u]n around shooting up the place? They have seen far more wounded soldiers than this piece of shit ever did."
Salzman also kindly answers his own questions:


"Because you don't get PTSD from sitting on your ass around Walter Reed."
This Jihadist was in the military for at least a decade to achieve the rank of Major. He expressed sympathies towards our enemies and that's what got him moved from Walter Reed to Hood. Why it didn't get him imprisoned can only be chalked up to a hypersensitivity over not "jumping to conclusions."

I think, because of Mr. Hasan, it will be a lot harder for anyone to express anything resembling sympathy towards Islamic Extremists. If anything good comes from this episode, it'll be that.

Future Jihadists who expose themselves as Hasan did, in the months leading up to this week's terrorist attack, probably won't be given the chance Hasan was given to wreak carnage. It's a shame he wasn't taken more seriously.

[hope4dopes]

Rather than assuming the issue settled and demanding an alternate countervailing explanation, why not take your own postion seriously. Define the term terrorism and show how it applies to what Major Hasan did.

I know it when I see it isn't analysis, still less an argument. Huh...oh.... Whinehole is getting out his tube of lube and his fist sock.

[hope4dopes]

Yep....you really have to look at Joe's motives here......

..either Joe portrays Hasan as a 'terrorists' without redefining the term he likes to throw-about..

..or, the military has to admit it has a problem because a psychologists, trained in the U.S. military, just shot up a bunch of his own guys...

Or... it's whiteys fault

or......he was possesed by the devil

or.....he watched to much T.V.

and if all that bull shit fails there is always the twinkie defense.

[Yonivore]

Do you think non-Muslim American troops say prayers when they are putting their lives at risk in war?
http://johneaves.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/soldiers-praying.jpg
http://thescroogereport.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/troops-praying.jpg
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/autopia/images/2008/03/24/soldiers_praying.jpg
http://www.gbgm-umc.org/millbrook/images/rightborder/soldiers_praying.jpg
http://www.holmanbibleoutreach.org/img/soldiers_praying.jpg
Yes, I do.


Would you?
I would.

[Nbadan]

I think, because of Mr. Hasan, it will be a lot harder for anyone to express anything resembling sympathy towards Islamic Extremists. If anything good comes from this episode, it'll be that.

So, any soldier who expresses sympathy for an enemy is a traitor? OK

[Winehole23]

No micca, I'm not. But you're obviously thinking about it.

[Winehole23]

Apropos of nothing, micca likes to sex up the thread.

[hope4dopes]

The world is to dangerous a place right now to let the american left goveren. Actually the only place they should be allowed to goveren is in Mr. Roger's nieghborhood...

[Nbadan]

Future Jihadists who expose themselves as Hasan did, in the months leading up to this week's terrorist attack, probably won't be given the chance Hasan was given to wreak carnage. It's a shame he wasn't taken more seriously.

It's also a shame that the military didn't take Hasan's slow mental-slide downward seriously by deciding to reactivate him anyway...and that they didn't act when Hasan complained of being called a 'camel-jocky' by some of those he was going to war with...

[Winehole23]

Yoni and Darrin? Definition of terrorism and applicability to this case? It's not self-evident: that's the lazy man's argument. Real men make their case.

[hope4dopes]

No micca, I'm not. But you're obviously thinking about it. I'm sure you've heard this alot in your life but........you're a real nice guy,but I really don't see you that way.

[hope4dopes]

Yoni and Darrin? Definition of terrorism and applicability to this case? It's not self-evident: that's the lazy man's argument. Real men make their case. Real Men? precious please...

[Yonivore]

So, any soldier who expresses sympathy for an enemy is a traitor? OK
I misspoke, I should have said, Islamic Extremist positions. But, on your point, if they do so at the expense of fellow soldiers, yeah; it's traitorous. So, OK.

[Yonivore]

Yoni and Darrin? Definition of terrorism and applicability to this case? It's not self-evident: that's the lazy man's argument. Real men make their case.
Hasan was no more or less a stereotypical terrorist than were the 19 who boarded those planes on September 11.

The last words out of any of their mouths was Allahu Akbar!

[hope4dopes]

It's also a shame that the military didn't take Hasan's slow mental-slide downward seriously by deciding to reactivate him anyway...and that they didn't act when Hasan complained of being called a 'camel-jocky' by some of those he was going to war with... He wasn't going to war he was going to be in the rear with the gear.And yes the media said he was being harrased for being a muslm, and if you're calling his attitudes a slow mental slide downward we'd have to be emptying mosques all around the civilized world and giving them mental health care workers.

[Winehole23]

Hasan was no more or less a stereotypical terrorist than were the 19 who boarded those planes on September 11.

The last words out of any of their mouths was Allahu Akbar!That's not responsive. Pointing to one or two circumstantial details and saying they fit a stereotype doesn't make the case for you.

How do you define terrorism Yoni, and how does Hasan's mass shooting qualify?

[ChumpDumper]

Hasan was no more or less a stereotypical terrorist than were the 19 who boarded those planes on September 11.They were all officers in the US armed forces?

I'm going to say he is less stereotypical for that fact. I'm interested to see what the entire background here is, but many here will believe only what their ideologies will permit.

[Nbadan]

Islamic Extremist positions

What positions were those? Why was he reactivated?

[Yonivore]

They were all officers in the US armed forces?

I'm going to say he is less stereotypical for that fact. I'm interested to see what the entire background here is, but many here will believe only what their ideologies will permit.

They all assimilated into their environments.

[hope4dopes]

Let's see... It's fellow soldiers fault for harrasing him about being a muslim.

It's the military's fault for not recognizing a trained mental health worker was in fact crazy(this will be the Obama approved position, and so the one the media pushes)

It's the looming threat of going to Iraq.

It's the fucking twinkies he ate.


But no where is it the shit he was hearing in the mosque.
No where is it the thousand and thousands of Imams preaching death to the west.
No where is it any result of Islam,because that's politically inncorrect, so that's verboten.
So we promote a cretin in our own military who hates the west because it's politically correct,and then we refuse to deal with the truth because that's politically inncorrect, and now we will crucify the military,because that IS politically correct.
Kinda reminds ya of fannie Mae.

[Winehole23]

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/1462/meltdown2.jpg

[Nbadan]

Let's see... It's fellow soldiers fault for harrasing him about being a muslim.

It's the military's fault for not recognizing a trained mental health worker was in fact crazy(this will be the Obama approved position, and so the one the media pushes)

It's the looming threat of going to Iraq.

It's the fucking twinkies he ate.

:lmao touche'

[Clandestino]

NBADAN is up to his same old terrorist sympathizing bullshit. move along, move along.

[ChumpDumper]

They all assimilated into their environments.Hasan was born and raised in America -- and many of the 9/11 terrorists didn't assimilate at all. You think Hasan was a sleeper agent from birth?

[Clandestino]

"But at the same time, there is considerable evidence that Hasan could also be categorized as a typical European-style recruit to fundamentalist Islam. He was not a poor street kid in rags, he was middle class. He was the product of a family of West Bank Palestinians who first took refuge in Jordan before moving to the United States to seek safety and wealth. "

[Nbadan]

"But at the same time, there is considerable evidence that Hasan could also be categorized as a typical European-style recruit to fundamentalist Islam. He was not a poor street kid in rags, he was middle class. He was the product of a family of West Bank Palestinians who first took refuge in Jordan before moving to the United States to seek safety and wealth. "

How the hell does anyone connect any of that to terrorism? Because his parents immigrated from Jordan? Palestinian?

:lol

[ChumpDumper]

"But at the same time, there is considerable evidence that Hasan could also be categorized as a typical European-style recruit to fundamentalist Islam. He was not a poor street kid in rags, he was middle class. He was the product of a family of West Bank Palestinians who first took refuge in Jordan before moving to the United States to seek safety and wealth. "So are you saying he was recruited?

Does "Chris W." have evidence he was part of a conspiracy?

[spursncowboys]

So, attacking someone because they propose a opinion that you are unable to intelligently debate makes their opinion worthless - check....
You really have no basis to debate this. In every way whatsoever (legal, dictionary) this was terroristic. Also very hypocritical of you to refer to him as crazy for labeling the terrorist.

[spursncowboys]

nbadan is up to his same old terrorist sympathizing bullshit. Move along, move along.
+1

[Winehole23]

In every way whatsoever (legal, dictionary) this was terroristic.Give the definitions. Make the case this fits in every way. You haven't yet. All I see is circularity and fiat from you guys who say this was terrorism.

[ChumpDumper]

You really have no basis to debate this. In every way whatsoever (legal, dictionary) this was terroristic.I'm not quite sure it meets every definition.

premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents

--US Code

[boutons_deux]

Typical racists ( the brilliant Whott doesn't like Magic Negro because of HUSSEIN as middle name) here keying off on the guy's religion rather than on his very nasty, dispiriting job and the pressures of Repugs' continuous bogus no-win wars.

I read today where other soldiers on that base are not surprised somebody went nuts. Not the first, not the last. These damaged soldiers will be murdering themselves and Americans for decades to come.

The fruits of OBL's WTC attack are still dropping.

[spursncowboys]

Give the definitions. Make the case this fits in every way. You haven't yet. All I see is circularity and fiat from you guys who say this was terrorism.

No. You can try and prove why it is not. I think this way of thinking is ridiculous. We are talking about you libs who are offended by the name branded to a mass murderer. If I understand correctly, you are saying that because he is muslim he was called a terrorist. Had he been white, he would not have been called a terrorist.
What if he was a white muslim? McVeigh was a terrorist, right?

[ChumpDumper]

No. You can try and prove why it is not.Already done.
I think this way of thinking is ridiculous.I think your spouting absolutes coupled with your complete inability to back them up is ridiculous
We are talking about you libs who are offended by the name branded to a mass murderer. If I understand correctly, you are saying that because he is muslim he was called a terrorist. Had he been white, he would not have been called a terrorist.
What if he was a white muslim? McVeigh was a terrorist, right?If i understand correctly, you are saying he fits every definition of terrorist.

He doesn't seem to fit the definition I posted from the US Code, unless there is something I'm missing.

[Winehole23]

We are talking about you libs who are offended by the name branded to a mass murderer. I'm not offended a bit. I'm just not sure the label fits. Your argument that it does isn't very convincing so far.

[Winehole23]

I'll give it to you though, you sort of tried. Seems like everyone else ran away from it.

[Yonivore]

Hasan was born and raised in America -- and many of the 9/11 terrorists didn't assimilate at all.
Many of them did.


You think Hasan was a sleeper agent from birth?
No.

[MannyIsGod]

This act might be terrorism, but in order for that to fit the case you're going to have to prove there was a political goal at the center of the actions. It doesn't matter what he yelled out or what his name was but rather what his goals were for this attack.

If the man simply went crazy and shot up a bunch of people then I don't see how you could call this terrorism.


No matter what you call this those soldiers are still dead. It doesn't change it one bit. Its sad to see how large the terrorism catch all has become. I want to see proof of political goals before I call this guy anything more than a mass murdering fuckhead.

[Yonivore]

This act might be terrorism, but in order for that to fit the case you're going to have to prove there was a political goal at the center of the actions. It doesn't matter what he yelled out or what his name was but rather what his goals were for this attack.

If the man simply went crazy and shot up a bunch of people then I don't see how you could call this terrorism.
That suggests terrorists are sane.


No matter what you call this those soldiers are still dead. It doesn't change it one bit. Its sad to see how large the terrorism catch all has become. I want to see proof of political goals before I call this guy anything more than a mass murdering fuckhead.
I want to see the military cull anyone else that remotely believes, behaves, or speaks like this mass murdering fuckhead.

[jack sommerset]

This guy is a bitch. USA gave him everything he has. When they asked him to go to the war his political and religous views all of a sudden were a big fucking deal. What does this lil bitch do? Kill his fellow soldiers. It's obvious this ass should have never been in the military. The polticians need to stay out of who can go join or not.

[ChumpDumper]

That suggests terrorists are sane.Are you suggesting all of them are not?


I want to see the military cull anyone else that remotely believes, behaves, or speaks like this mass murdering fuckhead.Thought police. Not surprised at all.

[ChumpDumper]

Many of them did.Really? In what way did they assimilate to the US?

[ChumpDumper]

This guy is a bitch. USA gave him everything he has. When they asked him to go to the war his political and religous views all of a sudden were a big fucking deal. What does this lil bitch do? Kill his fellow soldiers. It's obvious this ass should have never been in the military. The polticians need to stay out of who can go join or not.How do you know that politicians had anything to do with his selection or retention?

[MannyIsGod]

That suggests terrorists are sane.

They are. Having opposing viewpoints does not make them insane nor does their choice to kill themselves as part of their acts.



I want to see the military cull anyone else that remotely believes, behaves, or speaks like this mass murdering fuckhead.

I'm not sure how effective that would be or how possible it is, but I would like our military to remove people who are not suitable and show signs of wanting to kill their fellow servicemen.

[sook]

Hasan was no more or less a stereotypical terrorist than were the 19 who boarded those planes on September 11.

The last words out of any of their mouths was Allahu Akbar!

the funny thing is, that they report him never saying anything along that line. Not even after or before.

So the fact he didn't want to be deployed was coincidental in this atrocity?

It is just easier to believe that all muslims are crazy and that he just pulled a gun out one day, after being there for so long, and decided to shoot everybody.

What political goal was he trying to achieve? Sounds like a psychopath that was driven over the edge through all the war drama he has to listen to as a psychiatrist.

Analyze the stimulus, and make your conjecture from there on. Don't just spew some bigoted statement.

[sook]

I guess the next serial killer that happens to be muslim is a terrorist too.

O wait, theives and w.e too!

[sook]

Let's see... It's fellow soldiers fault for harrasing him about being a muslim.

It's the military's fault for not recognizing a trained mental health worker was in fact crazy(this will be the Obama approved position, and so the one the media pushes)

It's the looming threat of going to Iraq.

It's the fucking twinkies he ate.


But no where is it the shit he was hearing in the mosque.
No where is it the thousand and thousands of Imams preaching death to the west.
No where is it any result of Islam,because that's politically inncorrect, so that's verboten.
So we promote a cretin in our own military who hates the west because it's politically correct,and then we refuse to deal with the truth because that's politically inncorrect, and now we will crucify the military,because that IS politically correct.
Kinda reminds ya of fannie Mae.

Yea, I guess during that 8 year period, he just chose a random day to do it since he was pushed by his religon. And not the fact his sorry ass didn't want to honor the contract he made with the military.

[spursncowboys]

Are you guys saying that 1. He is not a terrorist and/or
2. What he did was not an act of terrrorism?

[ChumpDumper]

Are you guys saying that 1. He is not a terrorist and/or
2. What he did was not an act of terrrorism?I am saying your contention that the act fits every definition of terrorism is false.

[Shastafarian]

Are you guys saying that 1. He is not a terrorist and/or
2. What he did was not an act of terrrorism?

If he had been Caucasian and christian, would you still think he was a terrorist?

[George Gervin's Afro]

I wonder how much more blood will be sacrificed on the altar of political correctness.

your joking right?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Are you guys saying that 1. He is not a terrorist and/or
2. What he did was not an act of terrrorism?

he's a muderer and any murder committed is a terroristic attack on another person..

[Nbadan]

I'm a POW!



SJ4lNxc4ahs

Damn Iraqi's were probably going..'take her back...take her back!'

[spursncowboys]

Alleged Fort Hood Shooter Tied to Mosque of 9/11 Hijackers

Sunday , November 08, 2009
http://www.foxnews.com/images/service_ap_36.gif
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NEW YORK —
The family of the alleged Fort Hood shooter held his mother's funeral at the same Virginia mosque that two Sept. 11 hijackers attended in 2001, at a time when a radical imam preached there. Whether the Fort Hood shooter associated with the hijackers is something the FBI will probably look into, according to a law enforcement official who spoke on condition of anonymity because the investigation is ongoing.
The family of Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, the Army psychiatrist who killed 13 and wounded 29 at the Texas military base, held his mother's funeral at the Dar al Hijrah Islamic Center in Falls Church, Va., on May 31, 2001, according to her obituary in the Roanoke Times newspaper.
In 2001, Anwar Aulaqi was an imam, or spiritual leader, at the Washington-area mosque. Aulaqi told the FBI in 2001 that, before he moved to Virginia in early 2001, he met with 9/11 hijacker Nawaf al-Hazmi several times in San Diego. Al-Hazmi was at the time living with Khalid al-Mihdhar, another hijacker. Al-Hazmi and another hijacker, Hani Hanjour, attended the Dar al Hijrah mosque in Virginia in early April 2001.
In his FBI interview, Aulaqi denied ever meeting with al-Hazmi and Hanjour while in Virginia.
Aulaqi, a native-born U.S. citizen, left the United States in 2002, eventually traveling to Yemen. He was investigated by the FBI in 1999 and 2000 after it was learned that he may have been contacted by a possible procurement agent for Osama bin Laden. During this investigation, the FBI learned that Aulaqi knew people involved in raising money for Hamas, a Palestinian group on the U.S. State Department's terrorist list.
Imam Johari Abdul-Malik, outreach director at Dar al Hijrah, said he did not know whether Hasan ever attended the mosque but confirmed that the Hasan family participated in services there. Abdul-Malik said the Hasans were not leaders at the mosque and their attendance was utterly normal.
The Falls Church mosque is one of the largest on the East Coast, and thousands of worshippers attend prayers and services there every week. Abdul-Malik said it's a mistake for people to conflate regular attendance at a mosque with extremism.
Many Muslims pray at the mosque multiple times a day, he said. "It's part of family life. It's like going out for ice cream after dinner."
Faizul Khan, former imam of the Muslim Community Center in nearby Silver Spring, Md., where Hasan also worshipped, said he was not aware that Hasan had attended services at Dar al Hijrah but said it would not be unusual for Hasan to attend more than one mosque concurrently.
Khan said he did not recall Hasan mentioning having been taught or preached to by Aulaqi.
The London Telegraph first reported the potential link between Hasan and the mosque.
Army Chief of Staff Gen. George Casey said Sunday it's important for the country not to get caught up in speculation about Hasan's Muslim faith, and he has instructed his commanders to be on the lookout for anti-Muslim reaction to the killings at the Texas post.
He says focusing on the Islamic roots of the suspected shooter could "heighten the backlash" against all Muslims in the military.
Casey says diversity in the military "gives us strength."
Casey declined to answer questions about the investigation into the shooting, but said evidence to this point shows that Hasan acted alone. He toured Fort Hood on Friday with Army Secretary John McHugh.
Casey appeared on ABC's "This Week" and CNN's "State of the Union."

[ChumpDumper]

And this means what?

[Spurminator]

Dan, there's no "s" at the end of "terrorist" when you're talking about a single terrorist.

Sorry, that's been bugging me for a long time.

[Nbadan]

I think the whole point is that there needs to be terrorists for it to be terrorism, not terrorist...

[MannyIsGod]

I think the whole point is that there needs to be terrorists for it to be terrorism, not terrorist...


I wouldn't say that at all.

[Nbadan]

premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents

I guess one person could commit an act of terror but usually terrorism is associated with a conspiracy, which by definition implies more than one person...

[DarrinS]

Officials: U.S. Aware of Hasan Efforts to Contact al Qaeda (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fort-hood-shooter-contact-al-qaeda-terrorists-officials/Story?id=9030873&page=1)




U.S. intelligence agencies were aware months ago that Army Major Nidal Hasan was attempting to make contact with people associated with al Qaeda, two American officials briefed on classified material in the case told ABC News.

It is not known whether the intelligence agencies informed the Army that one of its officers was seeking to connect with suspected al Qaeda figures, the officials said.

One senior lawmaker said the CIA had, so far, refused to brief the intelligence committees on what, if any, knowledge they had about Hasan's efforts.

CIA director Leon Panetta and the Director of National Intelligence, Dennis Blair, have been asked by Congress "to preserve" all documents and intelligence files that relate to Hasan, according to the lawmaker.

On Sunday, Senator Joseph Lieberman (D-CT) called for an investigation into whether the Army missed signs as to whether Hasan was an Islamic extremist.

"If Hasan was showing signs, saying to people that he had become an Islamist extremist, the U.S. Army has to have a zero tolerance," Lieberman told Fox News Sunday.

Investigators want to know if Hasan maintained contact with a radical mosque leader from Virginia, Anwar al Awlaki, who now lives in Yemen and runs a web site that promotes jihad around the world against the U.S.

In a blog posting early Monday titled "Nidal Hassan Did the Right Thing," Awlaki calls Hassan a "hero" and a "man of conscience who could not bear living the contradiction of being a Muslim and serving in an army that is fighting against his own people."

According to his site, Awlaki served as an imam in Denver, San Diego and Falls Church, Virginia.

The Associated Press reported Sunday that Major Hasan attended the Falls Church mosque when Awlaki was there.


The Telegraph of London reported that Awlaki had made contact with two of the 9/11 hijackers when he was in San Diego.

He denied any knowledge of the hijacking plot and was never charged with any crime. After an intensive investigation by the FBI, Awlaki moved to Yemen.

People who knew or worked with Hasan say he seemed to have gradually become more radical in his disapproval of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Winehole23]

If true, that goes to intent.

[MannyIsGod]

If true it begs the question of how the fuck the Army lets an officer who's attempted to contact Al Qaeda stay within its ranks. That goes way past any political correctness and straight to fucking stupidity.

In any event, I want actual proof of this and not more supposed clandestine meetings with Iraq Intelligence officer bullshit.

[Winehole23]

If true it begs the question of how the fuck the Army lets an officer who's attempted to contact Al Qaeda stay within its ranks. That goes way past any political correctness and straight to fucking stupidity.Yep.

[Oh, Gee!!]

If not terrorism, what?

murder, capital murder, mass murder, shooting spree

[DarrinS]

murder, capital murder, mass murder, shooting spree





Man-caused disaster





Seriously, I don't understand why the left feels the need to spread their butt cheeks, insert their heads, and have total denial about what this really is.

If a radical Christian pro-lifer went into a branch of Planned Parenthood and started spraying bullets, don't you think the MSM would question the person's religious and political motives?

[Oh, Gee!!]

Seriously, I don't understand why the left feels the need to spread their butt cheeks, insert their heads, and have total denial about what this really is.

how is it not murder or mass murder or a shooting spree? why do you get upset that I am calling this crime by its correct nomenclature? Maybe it's also an act of terrorism, but it's not as self-evident to me as it is to you. Some investigation might prove you right, in which case you can have a cookie.


If a radical Christian pro-lifer went into a branch of Planned Parenthood and started spraying bullets, don't you think the MSM would question the person's religious and political motives?

Yes, because he would be as you called him "a radical Christian pro-lifer," so if the media knows those things they are going to report them. Right now, seems like the media doesn't know much about the shooter's intent or personal life. Some bits and pieces are starting to come to light, but it's probably going to take a while to figure out because the shooter didn't leave a note or a video about what he was planning to do (at least, not one that we know about).

I think it's a pointless argument anyhow--the guy killed a lot of innocent people.

[ChumpDumper]

Did the Obama administration call this particular act a man-caused disaster?

Show a link to it.

[spursncowboys]

TITLE 18 Part 1 CH 113B Subsection 2331
(5) the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that— (A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended— (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and

(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.

[ChumpDumper]

TITLE 18 Part 1 CH 113B Subsection 2331
(5) the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that— (A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended— (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and

(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.Thanks again for showing you were wrong. It takes a big man to admit it.

[DarrinS]

Did the Obama administration call this particular act a man-caused disaster?



No



Show a link to it.



No

[spursncowboys]

Thanks again for showing you were wrong. It takes a big man to admit it.
:lmao

[ChumpDumper]

:lmaoThis crime does not yet fit the definition of terrorism you posted. It might be proven to in the future, but not now.

[Oh, Gee!!]

TITLE 18 Part 1 CH 113B Subsection 2331
(5) the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that— (A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended— (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and

(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.

I'll grant you (A) and (C), but I'll need some convincing on (B).

[spursncowboys]

This crime does not yet fit the definition of terrorism you posted. It might be proven to in the future, but not now.
I respectfully disagree.

[ChumpDumper]

I respectfully disagree.Ok, prove your case.

[spursncowboys]

Ok, prove your case.
Officials: U.S. Aware of Hasan Efforts to Contact al Qaeda

Army Major in Fort Hood Massacre Used 'Electronic Means' to Connect with Terrorists

By RICHARD ESPOSITO, MATTHEW COLE and BRIAN ROSS

Nov. 9, 2009 —

U.S. intelligence agencies were aware months ago that Army Major Nidal Hasan was attempting to make contact with people associated with al Qaeda, two American officials briefed on classified material in the case told ABC News.
It is not known whether the intelligence agencies informed the Army that one of its officers was seeking to connect with suspected al Qaeda figures, the officials said.
Rep. Pete Hoekstra (R-MI) said the CIA had, so far, refused to brief the intelligence committees on what, if any, knowledge they had about Hasan's efforts.
CIA director Leon Panetta and the Director of National Intelligence, Dennis Blair, have been asked by Congress "to preserve" all documents and intelligence files that relate to Hasan, according to the lawmaker.
Hoekstra said he is "absolutely furious" that the house intel committee has been refused an intelligence briefing by the DNI or CIA on Hasan's attempt to reach out to al Qaeda, as first reported by ABC News.
Investigators want to know if Hasan maintained contact with a radical mosque leader from Virginia, Anwar al Awlaki, who now lives in Yemen and runs a web site that promotes jihad around the world against the U.S.
In a blog posting early Monday titled "Nidal Hassan Did the Right Thing," Awlaki calls Hasan a "hero" and a "man of conscience who could not bear living the contradiction of being a Muslim and serving in an army that is fighting against his own people."
According to his site, Awlaki served as an imam in Denver, San Diego and Falls Church, Virginia.
The Associated Press reported Sunday that Major Hasan attended the Falls Church mosque when Awlaki was there.


The Telegraph of London reported that Awlaki had made contact with two of the 9/11 hijackers when he was in San Diego.
He denied any knowledge of the hijacking plot and was never charged with any crime. After an intensive investigation by the FBI, Awlaki moved to Yemen.
People who knew or worked with Hasan say he seemed to have gradually become more radical in his disapproval of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
On Sunday, Senator Joseph Lieberman (D-CT) called for an investigation into whether the Army missed signs as to whether Hasan was an Islamic extremist.
"If Hasan was showing signs, saying to people that he had become an Islamist extremist, the U.S. Army has to have a zero tolerance," Lieberman told Fox News Sunday.

Army Chief of Staff

A fellow Army doctor who studied with Hasan, Val Finell, told ABC News, "We would frequently say he was a Muslim first and an American second. And that came out in just about everything he did at the University."
Finell said he and other Army doctors complained to superiors about Hasan's statements.
"And we questioned how somebody could take an oath of office&be an officer in the military and swear allegiance to the constitution and to defend America against all enemies, foreign and domestic and have that type of conflict," Finell told ABC News.
The Army Chief of Staff, General George Casey, raised concerns over the weekend that innocent Muslim soldiers could suffer as a result of the shooting at Fort Hood.
"I think the speculation (on Hasan's Islamic roots) could potentially heighten backlash against some of our Muslim soldiers," he said on ABC's "This Week."

[ChumpDumper]

Not proof.

Again, it might turn out to be the case. Not there yet.

[clambake]

if any of that is true, then there are much bigger problems than a guy named hasan.

[DarrinS]

Not proof.

Again, it might turn out to be the case. Not there yet.



What would be proof?


According to people like Nbadan, there's not even proof that 911 was a terrorist attack.

[LnGrrrR]

Interesting case. Also a tidbit... Falls Church, VA has a large amount of contractors working there, as it's a semi HQ for DISA (Defense Information Services Agency). Seems like that Imam picked a good place to try to influence service members and/or gov contractors.

[ChumpDumper]

What would be proof?In this case, actual evidence that meets Part B of the code you posted.

I think we'll find out soon enough. Your premature judgment may indeed be correct. No need to be so indignant in discovering you were premature.

[EmptyMan]

Hospital: Ft. Hood shooting suspect awake, talking. He was taken into custody and eventually moved to an Army (http://topics.breitbart.com/army/) hospital in San Antonio, (http://topics.breitbart.com/San+Antonio/) where he was in stable condition and able to talk

[Oh, Gee!!]

In this case, actual evidence that meets Part B of the code you posted.

I think we'll find out soon enough. Your premature judgment may indeed be correct. No need to be so indignant in discovering you were premature.

he's premature in every aspect of life.

[Winehole23]

Officials: U.S. Aware of Hasan Efforts to Contact al Qaeda

Army Major in Fort Hood Massacre Used 'Electronic Means' to Connect with Terrorists

By RICHARD ESPOSITO, MATTHEW COLE and BRIAN ROSS

Nov. 9, 2009 —

U.S. intelligence agencies were aware months ago that Army Major Nidal Hasan was attempting to make contact with people associated with al Qaeda, two American officials briefed on classified material in the case told ABC Newshttp://www.bradblog.com/?p=7514

[Winehole23]

ABC News (http://gawker.com/tag/abcnews/)' Brian Ross (http://gawker.com/tag/brianross/) has a breathtaking record of recklessly inaccurate, overhyped stories that don't live up to the headline. His scoop yesterday about Nidal Malik Hasan's "attempt to reach out to al Qaeda" (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fort-hood-shooter-contact-al-qaeda-terrorists-officials/Story?id=9030873&page=1) was one of them.http://gawker.com/5401562/how-abc-news-brian-ross-cooked-his-hasan-contacted-al-qaeda-scoop

[Winehole23]

(http://gawker.com/5231557/abc-news-fiercely-defends-notoriously-desperate-reporter)Which wouldn't be the first time (http://gawker.com/5231557/abc-news-fiercely-defends-notoriously-desperate-reporter). Ross reported—inaccurately—after the anthrax attacks in 2001 that the powder contained a "potent additive...known to have been used by only one country in producing biochemical weapons - Iraq." He laundered CIA agent John Kiriakou's lie that the agency only used waterboarding once, for 30 seconds, when in fact Kiriakou wasn't even in the same country as the secret prison where his colleagues waterboarded two men a total of 266 times. He fell for the lies of Alexis Debat, a grifter and fraud who masqueraded as an intelligence expert. And he hyped his access to the phone records of DC madam Deborah Jean Palfrey for days, but only came up with the names of two low-level clients.

[spursncowboys]

Rep.: Pakistan wire transfers traced to Hasan



By Angela K. Brown and Suzanne Gamboa - The Associated Press
Posted : Friday Nov 13, 2009 18:35:50 EST
FORT HOOD, Texas — The Army psychiatrist charged with killing 13 people in a shooting spree at Fort Hood made or accepted wire transfers with Pakistan, a country wracked by Muslim extremist violence, a Republican congressman said Friday.
Texas Rep. Michael McCaul, the ranking GOP member of the House Homeland Security Intelligence Subcommittee, said people outside the intelligence community with direct knowledge of the transfers also told him Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan also had communications with Pakistan.
“He may have friends or relatives or whatever and this could be totally [innocent],” McCaul said in a telephone interview. “But if he is wiring money to Pakistan, that could be terrorist financing. If he was receiving money from Pakistan, that is more significant.”
McCaul said he does not know the direction of the transfers and communications, only that they passed between Hasan and Pakistan. He said the lack of additional information is why Congress should launch an investigation.
Hasan, 39, was charged Thursday with 13 counts of premeditated murder in a military court, and Army investigators have said he is the only suspect in the case and could face additional charges. His attorney, John Galligan, has said prosecutors have not yet told him whether they plan to seek the death penalty.
A pair of civilian police officers responding to last week’s attack, in which 43 people were also injured, including 34 with gunshot wounds, shot Hasan four times. Recovering in the intensive care unit at San Antonio’s Brooke Army Medical Center, Hasan has told his attorney he has no feeling in his legs and extreme pain in his hands.
Galligan said doctors have told Hasan he may be permanently paralyzed from the waist down. He called his client’s medical condition “extremely serious” and said Hasan didn’t flinch when Galligan touched his leg during a meeting Thursday, when one of Hasan’s relatives was able to see him for the first time since he was hospitalized.
Hospital spokesman Dewey Mitchell said he could not confirm whether Hasan was paralyzed, since Hasan has directed hospital officials not to release any information about his condition or injuries.
The question of how Hasan spent his Army salary stems from the apparently frugal lifestyle he lived both in the small city of Killeen, Texas, outside of Fort Hood, and in the Washington, D.C., suburbs when stationed at Walter Reed Army Medical Center. In Texas, he lived in a rundown apartment that cost $350 a month and drove a 2006 Honda.
As an Army major with more than 12 years of service, Hasan earns just over $92,000 a year in basic pay and housing and food allowances, according to pay tables from the Defense Finance and Accounting Service. Hasan’s gross monthly salary is $6,325.50 a month, or $75,906 annually. He also gets $1,128 a month for a housing allowance and $223 a month for meals, which adds up to another $16,212 a year.
Military psychiatrists may also receive as much as $20,000 a year in incentive pay, according to the tables. But to get the bonus, they must meet certain requirements, such as agreeing to remain on active duty for at least one year after accepting the award. Hasan’s Army records are sealed due to the ongoing investigation, and it isn’t clear if he was eligible for the bonus or agreed to the conditions.
President Barack Obama has ordered a review of all intelligence related to Hasan and whether the information was properly shared and acted upon within government agencies. Several members of Congress, particularly Michigan Rep. Peter Hoekstra, the top Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, have also called for a full examination of what agencies knew about Hasan’s contacts with a radical Muslim cleric in Yemen and others of concern to the U.S.
Hoekstra confirmed this week that government officials knew about 10 to 20 e-mails between Hasan and the radical imam, beginning in December.
A joint terrorism task force overseen by the FBI learned late last year of Hasan’s repeated contact with the cleric, who encouraged Muslims to kill U.S. troops in Iraq. The FBI said the task force did not refer early information about Hasan to superiors because it concluded he wasn’t linked to terrorism.
—————
Gamboa reportered from Washington. Associated Press writer Richard Lardner in Washington contributed to this report.

[ChumpDumper]

So nobody really knows anything about the transfers except that Republican members of intel committees in congress are really eager to talk about it.

[DarrinS]

I don't think he said "Allahu Akbar!" -- it was probably some random gibberish. And, if you put 50 monkeys in a room with PC's, they'll eventually bust out a 50-page PowerPoint presentation on the Koranic world view as it relates to muslims in the US military. Said monkeys will also give lifeless death stares to anyone challenging their ideas.


http://www.guy-sports.com/fun_pictures/ostrich_head_sand2.gif

[Winehole23]

Said monkeys will also give lifeless death stares to anyone challenging their ideas.Are you having another fantasy about your morbid and lifeless sense of humor?

:rollin

[wut]

We can play with definitions all we want, but what we know for fact is that Muslim extremists are at war with the west, and this guy clearly chose to associate himself with that cause.

Call this an act of war/terrorism.... however you want to paint it, this man killed Americans in the name of an ideology...you can't dance around that fact.

[Winehole23]

Why does the fact matter so much? Would the case be much different if he had killed in the name of another ideology/religion?

[Winehole23]

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2009/11/12/terrorism/index.html

[spursncowboys]

What other religion is attacking free elected governments, and trying to replace with their Islamofacist govt?
Why do you libs always have to bunch up all religions to excuse the violence of Islam?
There are christian subcultures in every country in the Middle east. Never are they trying to overthrow their govt. or killing people in the name of Jesus. Even in Iran where they are being killed just for being Christian, they do not resist and fight with their church.

[Winehole23]

What other religion is attacking free elected governments, and trying to replace with their Islamofacist govt?There are plenty. Why restrict yourself to islamofascism, so-called?

BTW, when did *islamofascism* become a recognized world religion?

[wut]

It's all about moral ethics, and consequentialism...if these muslim extremists believe that their actions are for the good in the end, then no matter what they had to do to get to that end, it is moral.

It flies in the face of Judeo-Christian ethics which we perceive as natural law(divine law), or right and wrong being independent of the will of man.

[Winehole23]

It flies in the face of Judeo-Christian ethics which we perceive as natural law(divine law), or right and wrong being independent of the will of man.Exodus 32:27 is part of Judeo-Christian ethics too. Christians share it in common with Judaism and Islam.

Fiery intolerance of false idols is a family resemblance.

[spursncowboys]

There are plenty. Why restrict yourself to islamofascism, so-called?

BTW, when did *islamofascism* become a recognized world religion?


What other religion is attacking free elected governments, and trying to replace with their Islamofacist govt?

[Winehole23]

I take issue with the claim that islamofascism even exists as an ideologically, religiously or politically coherent movement at all, still less that it has any serious political extension.

The caliphate claptrap is pure conspiranoia on our side.

[spursncowboys]

Exodus 32:27 is also part of Judeo-Christian ethics too. Christians share it in common with Judaism and Islam.

Fiery intolerance of false idols is a family resemblance.

Mathew 26:52
Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

John 15:12-13
12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

This is a far stretch even for you.

[Winehole23]

Intolerance of false belief is a common point. Kooks may take it to include Old Testament style rampages. The three Abrahamic creeds do have Moses in common.

[Winehole23]

I don't see how that's even controversial.

[spursncowboys]

Intolerance of false belief is a common point. Kooks may take it to include Old Testament style rampages. The three Abrahamic creeds do have Moses in common.

You are ridiculous. Just admit that you talked out of your ass.

[Winehole23]

Not at all. Why don't you consider the point?

The three major world religions relevant to this conversation include Moses.

[Winehole23]

I understand about supercession of the Old Testament by the New. The tradition still includes Moses. A kook can focus on any part he wants to justify his aims. He's not limited by the doxa of the true believer, and never has been. This has been as true of Judaism and Christianity as it is of islam, historically speaking. Nobody's got the corner on violent zealotry.

[spursncowboys]

Not at all. Why don't you consider the point?

The three major world religions relevant to this conversation include Moses.

Christians aren't a group of people. I also wouldn't include Muslims in a major religion category. But going up more recently, would be Abraham. With his son Isaac to the Jews and Christians and his other son Ismail to Muslims.

[spursncowboys]

I understand about supercession of the Old Testament by the New. The tradition still includes Moses. A kook can focus on any part he wants to justify his aims. He's not limited by the doxa of the true believer, and never has been. This has been as true of Judaism and Christianity as it is of islam, historically speaking. Nobody's got the corner on violent zealotry.

Yeah. Whether it is their culture or their religion. Islam is attacking the free world. No other religion is doing this with no condemnation of their fellow religious leaders.

[Winehole23]

Christians aren't a group of peopleHow no?


I also wouldn't include Muslims in a major religion category.Why not?

#2 worldwide, behind Christianity.

[Winehole23]

Islam is attacking the free world.Not true.


No other religion is doing this with no condemnation of their fellow religious leaders. No condemnation? This is surely false. You're not paying attention, SnC. Islam may not bless our wars, but it does condemn terrorists as un-Islamic. It's practically a ritual by now.

[spursncowboys]

How no?

Why not?

#2 worldwide, behind Christianity.

Your right. Mi mal.

[Winehole23]

Is it still your contention that Islam's 1.5 billion adherents worldwide are at all war with us? That the creed, as such, is our enemy?

[hope4dopes]

Not true.

No condemnation? This is surely false. You're not paying attention, SnC. Islam may not bless our wars, but it does condemn terrorists as un-Islamic. It's practically a ritual by now.


Yes you always see huge demonsrtations of muslims outraged by islamic terroriest acts.filling the streets of say...............Barump nevada,

[Winehole23]

There was a candlelight vigil in Tehran after 9/11, and not for the perished jihadists.

http://www.pacificviews.org/weblog/archives/vigil-tehran2.jpg

[hope4dopes]

also Islam is a political movement and well as a religous movement.

[Winehole23]

All religions have political dimensions. The US Conference of Bishops lobbies against abortion? So what? What are you talking about? More Caliphate tinhat?

[hope4dopes]

There was a candlelight vigil in Tehran after 9/11, and not for the perished jihadists.

http://www.pacificviews.org/weblog/archives/vigil-tehran2.jpgYeah some of them may still be alive.Probablly the same guys that were in the streets for democracy that this regime ignored. Wow to dredge this small vigil up to prove your point is pathetic, when you compare it the multitudes across the muslim world that where dancing in the streets for joy on 9-11.

[Winehole23]

To have another Ottoman Empire, you'd need another Turkey behind it.

[Winehole23]

Yeah some of them may still be alive.Probablly the same guys that were in the streets for democracy that this regime ignored. Wow to dredge this small vigil up to prove your point is pathetic, when you compare it the multitudes across the muslim world that where dancing in the streets for joy on 9-11.You forget. We had the whole world on our side, including the lion's share of Muslims and even the Iranians.

And we blew it. That's what's really pathetic.

[hope4dopes]

All religions have political dimensions. The US Conference of Bishops lobbies against abortion? So what? What are you talking about? More Caliphate tinhat? Let's see when was the last time the Bishops I guess you mean by that the catholic bishops, sent out a fatwa to kill say an author, or anyone that was "heretical".
Yeah Islam just like a real religon huh.

[hope4dopes]

You forget. We had the whole world on our side, including the lion's share of Muslims and even the Iranians.

And we blew it. That's what's really pathetic.what are you rambeling about

[hope4dopes]

To have another Ottoman Empire, you'd need another Turkey behind it. The Ottoman Empire wasn't a calaphate.

[Ignignokt]

I guess the difference is between a political lobbying group like the Catholic Bishops, and a Government like Sharia, or the caliphate.

[Winehole23]

Let's see when was the last time the Bishops I guess you mean by that the catholic bishops, sent out a fatwa to kill say an author, or anyone that was "heretical".
Yeah Islam just like a real religon huh.Didn't you read the link to Greenwald? Islam doesn't have a monopoly on this sort of thing.

[hope4dopes]

All religions have political dimensions. The US Conference of Bishops lobbies against abortion? So what? What are you talking about? More Caliphate tinhat? From it's fucking conception Islam was a political movement it was about gaining control of the trade center of Mecca

[Winehole23]

The Ottoman Empire wasn't a calaphate.So? There is no considerable political power behind islamofascism, nor does it exist as a coherent movement in its own right. In order to become a political power, it would need a regional base and a political party. It has neither.

[Winehole23]

From it's fucking conception Islam was a political movement it was about gaining control of the trade center of Mecca Christianity took over Europe and much of the Mediterranean. There's a materialist take on everything. Are you a historical materialist, micca?

[hope4dopes]

Didn't you read the link to Greenwald? Islam doesn't have a monopoly on this sort of thing.Greenwald...Oh shit Greenwald.....Oh my God Greenwald.......There are plenty of people not named greenwald who disagree , and alot of of them are muslims, and a lot of them are muslim scholars, and muslim Imams, so when the leadership of this inane cult spout this crap to their millions or adoring followers, who am I to believe,..... them or....... "greenwald".

[Winehole23]

so when the leadership of this inane cult spout this crap to their millions or adoring followers, who am I to believe,..... them or....... "greenwald".What inane cult? Which leaders?

[hope4dopes]

Christianity took over Europe and much of the Mediterranean. There's a materialist take on everything. Are you a historical materialist, micca? HELLO>>>HELLO>>>>HELLO...It is 2009...Are you seriously suggesting that having survived the Catholic Churches shit Europe is now obliged under some politically correct insanity to once agian put up with terrorists.
Europe was attaked already by the muslim world's effort to conquer Europe and were stopped at the gates of vienna.This isn't the first attack the west has had to deal with

[Winehole23]

What electorally significant political party?

[hope4dopes]

What inane cult? Which leaders?
Gimmme LINKS>>>>FOR GOD SAKES GIMME LINKS...where the fuck you been...You haven't heard of the jihad?

[Winehole23]

Europe was attaked already by the muslim world's effort to conquer Europe and were stopped at the gates of vienna.This isn't the first attack the west has had to deal withSure. And See of Rome tried to capture Jerusalem. Repeatedly. Your point?

[hope4dopes]

What electorally significant political party?O.K. I'm out you're beyond stupid at this point.

[hope4dopes]

Sure. And See of Rome tried to capture Jerusalem. Repeatedly. Your point? Well you may have noticed he's fucking dead , and he's not fucking with me or mine.

[Winehole23]

Gimmme LINKS>>>>FOR GOD SAKES GIMME LINKS...where the fuck you been...You haven't heard of the jihad?There ain't no one big nasty jihad. If there is, it's on you to show it even exists.

[Ignignokt]

Sure. And See of Rome tried to capture Jerusalem. Repeatedly. Your point?

The Roman's are no longer around, the Muslims are.

[Winehole23]

O.K. I'm out you're beyond stupid at this point.No, you're beyond stupid. You beg the question of a jihad and a caliphate of no great geographical or political magnitude. You can't give any evidence but your own conviction that it even exists, other than pointing darkly at terrorism, sowing fear and encouraging everybody's fearful imagination to fill in the rest.

It's a a hackneyed bete noir. A bogeyman. Fit perhaps to frighten the young and the feebleminded. Terrorism ain't that big a deal, compared to us. Against us, the only chance it stands is making us lose our chickenheaded minds, just like you lost yours.

[Ignignokt]

No, you're beyond stupid. You beg the question on a jihad and a caliphate of no great geographical or political magnitude. You can't give any evidence but your own conviction that it even exists, other than pointing darkly at terrorism, sowing fear and encouraging everybody's fearful imagination to fill in the rest.

No sharia law exist in any foreing country. Move along.

BBC NEWS
Execution of a teenage girl
A television documentary team has pieced together details surrounding the case of a 16-year-old girl, executed two years ago in Iran.

On 15 August, 2004, Atefah Sahaaleh was hanged in a public square in the Iranian city of Neka.

Her death sentence was imposed for "crimes against chastity".

The state-run newspaper accused her of adultery and described her as 22 years old.

But she was not married - and she was just 16.

Sharia Law

In terms of the number of people executed by the state in 2004, Iran is estimated to be second only to China.

In the year of Atefah's death, at least 159 people were executed in accordance with the Islamic law of the country, based on the Sharia code.

Since the revolution, Sharia law has been Iran's highest legal authority.

Alongside murder and drug smuggling, sex outside marriage is also a capital crime.

As a signatory of the International Convention on Civil and Political Rights, Iran has promised not to execute anyone under the age of 18.

But the clerical courts do not answer to parliament. They abide by their religious supreme leader, Ayatollah Khamenei, making it virtually impossible for human rights campaigners to call them to account.

Code of behaviour

At the time of Atefah's execution in Neka, journalist Asieh Amini heard rumours the girl was just 16 years old and so began to ask questions.

"When I met with the family," says Asieh, "they showed me a copy of her birth certificate, and a copy of her death certificate. Both of them show she was born in 1988. This gave me legitimate grounds to investigate the case."

So why was such a young girl executed? And how could she have been accused of adultery when she was not even married?

Disturbed by the death of her mother when she was only four or five years old, and her distraught father's subsequent drug addiction, Atefah had a difficult childhood.

She was also left to care for her elderly grandparents, but they are said to have shown her no affection.

In a town like Neka, heavily under the control of religious authorities, Atefah - often seen wandering around on her own - was conspicuous.

It was just a matter of time before she came to the attention of the "moral police", a branch of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard, whose job it is to enforce the Islamic code of behaviour on Iran's streets.

Secret relationship

Being stopped or arrested by the moral police is a fact of life for many Iranian teenagers.

Previously arrested for attending a party and being alone in a car with a boy, Atefah received her first sentence for "crimes against chastity" when she was just 13.

Although the exact nature of the crime is unknown, she spent a short time in prison and received 100 lashes.

“ Atefah was soon caught in a downward spiral of arrest and abuse ”

When she returned to her home town, she told those close to her that lashes were not the only things she had to endure in prison. She described abuse by the moral police guards.

Soon after her release, Atefah became involved in an abusive relationship with a man three times her age.

Former revolutionary guard, 51-year-old Ali Darabi - a married man with children - raped her several times.

She kept the relationship a secret from both her family and the authorities.

Atefah was soon caught in a downward spiral of arrest and abuse.

Local petition

Circumstances surrounding Atefah's fourth and final arrest were unusual.

The moral police said the locals had submitted a petition, describing her as a "source of immorality" and a "terrible influence on local schoolgirls".

But there were no signatures on the petition - only those of the arresting guards.

“ Men's word is accepted much more clearly and much more easily than women ”
Mohammad Hoshi,
Iranian lawyer and exile

Three days after her arrest, Atefah was in a court and tried under Sharia law.

The judge was the powerful Haji Rezai, head of the judiciary in Neka.

No court transcript is available from Atefah's trial, but it is known that for the first time, Atefah confessed to the secret of her sexual abuse by Ali Darabi.

However, the age of sexual consent for girls under Sharia law - within the confines of marriage - is nine, and furthermore, rape is very hard to prove in an Iranian court.

"Men's word is accepted much more clearly and much more easily than women," according to Iranian lawyer and exile Mohammad Hoshi.

"They can say: 'You know she encouraged me' or 'She didn't wear proper dress'."

Court of appeal

“ She was my love, my heart... I did everything for her, everything I could ”
Atefah's father

When Atefah realised her case was hopeless, she shouted back at the judge and threw off her veil in protest.

It was a fatal outburst.

She was sentenced to execution by hanging, while Darabi got just 95 lashes.

Shortly before the execution, but unbeknown to her family, documents that went to the Supreme Court of Appeal described Atefah as 22.

"Neither the judge nor even Atefah's court appointed lawyer did anything to find out her true age," says her father.

And a witness claims: "The judge just looked at her body, because of the developed physique... and declared her as 22."

Judge Haji Rezai took Atefah's documents to the Supreme Court himself.

And at six o'clock on the morning of her execution he put the noose around her neck, before she was hoisted on a crane to her death.

Pain and death

During the making of the documentary about Atefah's death the production team telephoned Judge Haji Rezai to ask him about the case, but he refused to comment.

The human rights organisation Amnesty International says it is concerned that executions are becoming more common again under President Mahmoud Ahmedinajad, who advocates a return to the pure values of the revolution.

The judiciary have never admitted there was any mishandling of Atefah's case.

For Atefah's father the pain of her death remains raw. "She was my love, my heart... I did everything for her, everything I could," he says.

He did not get the chance to say goodbye.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/programmes/5217424.stm

Published: 2006/07/27 19:01:07 GMT

© BBC MMIX

[Winehole23]

The Roman's are no longer around, the Muslims are.The Muslims aren't our enemy, pinhead.

[Ignignokt]

No, you're beyond stupid. You beg the question of a jihad and a caliphate of no great geographical or political magnitude. You can't give any evidence but your own conviction that it even exists, other than pointing darkly at terrorism, sowing fear and encouraging everybody's fearful imagination to fill in the rest.

It's a a hackneyed bete noir. A bogeyman. Fit perhaps to frighten the young and the feebleminded. Terrorism ain't that big a deal, compared to us. Against us, the only chance it stands is making us lose our chickenheaded minds, just like you lost yours.

Why doesn't Obama say that?

[Ignignokt]

The Muslims aren't our enemy, pinhead.

Not all muslims, but the ones that actually have to adhere to the Quran.

[Winehole23]

No sharia law exist in any foreing country. Move along.This sort of thing happens in Saudi Arabia from time to time. Are they our enemy, too?

[hope4dopes]

No, you're beyond stupid. You beg the question on a jihad and a caliphate of no great geographical or political magnitude. You can't give any evidence but your own conviction that it even exists, other than pointing darkly at terrorism, sowing fear and encouraging everybody's fearful imagination to fill in the rest. Yeah you and Obama preach this shit while not only the people outside the Islamic world are terrorized,but the people in the muslim world suffer under the bootheel of a form of spiritual mongloidisim.

[hope4dopes]

No, you're beyond stupid. You beg the question of a jihad and a caliphate of no great geographical or political magnitude. You can't give any evidence but your own conviction that it even exists, other than pointing darkly at terrorism, sowing fear and encouraging everybody's fearful imagination to fill in the rest.

It's a a hackneyed bete noir. A bogeyman. Fit perhaps to frighten the young and the feebleminded. Terrorism ain't that big a deal, compared to us. Against us, the only chance it stands is making us lose our chickenheaded minds, just like you lost yours. Yeah it's a far cry from your lawn chair in the suburbs, but I just had dinner the other night with a couple from Kashmir in India they'd beg to differ with you and greenwald. Denial and lies is no argument.

[Winehole23]

Sharia is a neighborhood system of justice. It varies from place to place. It's not one big evil thing either.

[Winehole23]

Yeah it's a far cry from your lawn chair in the suburbs, but I just had dinner the other night with a couple from Kashmir in India they'd beg to differ with you and greenwald. Denial and lies is no argument.I was talking about us, not Kashmir. Keep your eye o n the ball.

[hope4dopes]

This sort of thing happens in Saudi Arabia from time to time. Are they our enemy, too? What kind of diseased hampster is running around in your gourd....Happens from time to time......from time to time......christ.........I personally don't care what you believe, as long as you keep it in your own yard.

[Winehole23]

Yeah you and Obama preach this shit while not only the people outside the Islamic world are terrorized,but the people in the muslim world suffer under the bootheel of a form of spiritual mongloidisim.Don't sugarcoat it, micca. Please tell us what you really think.

[Winehole23]

What kind of diseased hampster is running around in your gourd....Happens from time to time......from time to time......christ.........I personally don't care what you believe, as long as you keep it in your own yard.The politics forum is my own backyard.

[hope4dopes]

I was talking about us, not Kashmir. Keep your eye o n the ball. The problems of the real world must seem easy to solve from the barstool of a kitchy little micro brewery in the suburbs.

[hope4dopes]

Don't sugarcoat it, micca. Please tell us what you really think.
So you're reduced to trolling....

[hope4dopes]

Sharia is a neighborhood system of justice. It varies from place to place. It's not one big evil thing either. trolling.

[Winehole23]

So you're reduced to trolling....Whereas you never rose above it. So don't pat yourself on the back too hard for noticing.

[Ignignokt]

This sort of thing happens in Saudi Arabia from time to time. Are they our enemy, too?

An enemy of my enemy rule.

[Ignignokt]

So, Islam is a religion that refuses to spread correct?

[Winehole23]

Every religion tends to spread or die out. What's your point?

[Winehole23]

The problems of the real world must seem easy to solve from the barstool of a kitchy little micro brewery in the suburbs.Who was trying to solve the world's problems? Just having a semi-sensible conversation with you would be enough for me. I don't think I had any aspiration higher than that.

You're a walking jackpot of cliches, begged questions and false analogies, micca.

[Winehole23]

Not all muslims, but the ones that actually have to adhere to the Quran.You're an Islamist, I take it?

[Ignignokt]

Every religion tends to spread or die out. What's your point?

SUre, but Islam first spread through the sword, and their book calls on them to be warring.

To deny that at it's core it is a warrior religion is idiocy, history will debunk you.

[hope4dopes]

Every religion tends to spread or die out. What's your point?Bullshit.

[Winehole23]

Why don't you gloss it for us gtown? Adherence to what part of the Koran is typical of true Islamic faith, according to you?

[Winehole23]

To deny that at it's core it is a warrior religion is idiocy, history will debunk you.Go ahead, gloss it for us. Don't hoard the knowledge, gtown.

[Ignignokt]

Jihad

Quran 9:123 vs. Matthew 10:34

James M. Arlandson

Muslim apologists frequently quote Matthew 10:34, which mentions a sword, drawing a parallel between Christianity and Islam: Jesus and Muhammad both endorse jihad, so why would Christians today complain about it in Islam? However, this parallel is deadly flawed.

To explain more effectively how the two "Founders" differ, this article follows a particular method of exegesis (detailed analysis of a text). First, the historical context of the two verses is explained, so their meaning can be made clear. Second, the literary context—the verses surrounding the two targeted verses—is quoted or summarized, so we do not look at the two verses in isolation. Third, we discuss any important elements within the verses, such as key words. Finally, we will then be in a position to contrast the two verses at the end of the article, applying them to today.

We take Quran 9:123 as our counter-verse to Matthew 10:34 because, as we will see, both share the context of family relations.

9:123 "O you who believe, fight those of the unbelievers near you and let them see how harsh you can be. Know that Allah is with the righteous." (Fakhry’s translation)

The historical context of this verse takes place after a military expedition in early 630, so it is late in Muhammad’s life (he dies of a fever in AD 632). Some scholars regard Sura 9 as the last sura (chapter) to be revealed from on high. Therefore, it sets many policies for Muslims today, and is often interpreted as abrogating or canceling previous verses, even peaceful ones. During the military expedition, Muhammad led a large army of 30,000 soldiers to the northern city of Tabuk in order to confront the Byzantine Christians. This is clearly a Muslim Crusade, centuries before the European Crusades. The Byzantines failed to show up, so Muhammad’s Crusade was fruitless, except he managed to extort a tax from northern tribes for the "privilege" of living under Islam, that is, for not being attacked again. After the Muslims returned, Muhammad scolded the "hypocrites" who had stayed behind and failed to support him. Then he turns to those people who stirred up strife in the community by expressing doubt in Muhammad’s revelations; they needed to be silenced. This latter groups is whom he attacks in 9:123—the "unbelievers." He may wage war on them, without flinching.

Another aspect of the historical context should be considered. Muhammad urges his fighters forward in order to kill the unbelievers, even if the latter belong to the fighters’ own family, as seen in the words "near you" in v. 123, which may imply a relational nearness as well as a geographical one. Be that as it may, the Muslim commentator S. Abdul A’la Maududi informs us:

The Command [to fight] has been repeated at [the] end [of Sura 9] in order to impress on the Muslims the importance of the matter and to urge them to do Jihad and crush these internal enemies, without paying the least regard to the racial, family, and social relations that had been proving a binding force with them.

It is clear, then, that Muslims should not pay even "the least regard to the ... family ... relations," a "binding force" that had encumbered the expansion of Islam. Muslims have been ordered, therefore, to fight their family members in a physical way, in other words, to hit them with sharp swords. Why does Muhammad order this? According to Maududi, it is to "crush these internal enemies."

The literary context of 9:123 shows strife with those refusing to support or even opposing Muhammad. For example, in verse 121 Muhammad complains that the hypocrites do not spend any money in Allah’s cause (code for fighting), so Allah will recompense them accordingly. Next, Muhammad instructs his troops in verse 122 that not all Muslims should go out on a campaign of jihad, but some should stay behind to teach Islam, so they may warn people to beware of evil. Finally, in the verses after 9:123 Muhammad condemns the unbelievers for mocking his revelations. Thus, the literary context does not consist of peace and friendship with Muhammad’s opponents, and that is why he goes on the warpath and to deal with them harshly in 9:123.

The elements within 9:123, the third step in our exegetical method, yield two hard truths. First, Muhammad uses the Arabic word qital (three-consonant root is q-t-l), which always means physically fighting and killing and warring—no other meaning is available. This word is usually stronger than jihad (three consonant root is j-h-d), which Muhammad uses in 9:73, a companion verse to 9:123:

9:73 "O Prophet, fight [j-h-d] the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be stern with them. Their abode is Hell, and what a terrible fate!" (Fakhry)

Thus, jihad and qital can barely be distinguished, since the means (swords) and the goal (submission or death) of fighting are the same in both verses. These two verses alone should lay to rest forever the frequent claim that jihad means only a spiritual struggle against sin in the soul. Second, not only does Muhammad say that his jihadists should fight the unbelievers (and hypocrites in verse 73), but the Muslim warriors should do so harshly or sternly. This lends a severity to the verse which is difficult to take in—along with the eternal fate of the unbelievers, which is very, very often stated in the Quran in exactly the same way as verse 73 states it—short and quick and severe.

We turn now to Matthew 10:34.

Many Muslims assert that Jesus either wielded a physical sword, or he endorsed a holy war, of sorts. Thus, he is not different from Muhammad—and the latter prophet is better than Jesus. They say this to defend tacitly their prophet from any accusation of violence. But this is completely wrong.

Matt. 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth, but a sword."

The historical context, we should recall, is Jewish culture, as Jesus ministers to his own people. He sends out the twelve disciples to the "lost sheep of Israel," not yet to the gentiles, who will be reached after the Resurrection. It is not surprising, historically speaking, that he would spread his word by proclamation to his own, by Jewish disciples. Second, he predicts that some towns may not receive the disciples and that the authorities may put them on trial and flog them. In that eventuality, they should shake the dust off their feet, pray for them, and flee to another city (not attack the people or the authorities, which Muhammad does to his Meccan persecutors). Third, it is only natural that first-century Jews may not understand this new sect or "Jesus movement" (as sociologists of the New Testament call it), so they resist it. Does this mean, then, that Jesus calls for a jihad with a physical, military sword against his fellow Jews—say, against his own family who wanted to take custody of him because they thought he was "out of his mind" (Mark 3:21)?

These cultural facts explain the literary context, which shows division among family members. The literary context must be quoted in full to explain the meaning of "sword" in Matthew 10:34 (bold print):

32 "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven. 34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household [Micah 7:6]

37 Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."

The one key element in this lengthy passage is the word "sword," and its meaning is now clear. It indicates that following Jesus in his original Jewish society may not bring peace to a family, but may "split" it up, the precise function of a metaphorical sword. Are his disciples ready for that? This kind of spiritual sword invisibly severs a man from his father, and daughter from her mother, and so on (Micah 7:6). It is only natural that Matthew, the traditional author of the most Jewish of the Gospels, would include a pericope (a unit or section) like 10:32-39. Given Jesus’ own family resistance early on (they later came around), it is only natural he would say that no matter what the cost, one must follow him to the end, even if it means giving up one’s family. But this applies only if the family rejects the new convert, not if the family accepts him in his new faith; he must not reject them because the whole point of Jesus’ advent is to win as many people to his side as possible, even if this divides the world in two, but never violently.

Finally, reaching the fourth step in our method, we may now contrast the two verses (Quran 9:123 and Matt. 10:34), applying them to today, beginning with the Quranic verse.

Muhammad wages military war on disbelievers. Throughout the Quran in verses that speak of qital and jihad, the prophet divides the world into Dar-ul-Islam (Abode of Islam) and Dar-ul-Kufr (Abode of Unbelief). In 9:123 (and 9:73) Allah permits the superior first world, Islam, to wage war (qital) on and physically struggle (jihad) with the inferior second world—everyone else—Dar al-Harb (the Abode of War). This "everyone else" includes kinship and family ties. Muslims today can appreciate this in a literal way, for if they apostatize and become Christians, their family may disown them, or worse, following their Quran.

It is no wonder that non-violent fanatics and violent fanatics like terrorists are inspired by their sacred book. Sura 9 alone has many verses commanding the earliest Muslims to wage military war against disbelievers and hypocrites—and against Byzantine Christians until they, the People of the Book (Christians and Jews), submit to the Muslim army outside the city wall (or die) and pay a special "protection" tax (jizya) for the "privilege" of living under Islam (Quran 9:29). After all, Muhammad’s jihadists conquered Jerusalem in AD 638, only six years after his death (632). Thus, one Saudi cleric today, quoting mostly from Sura 9 (and there are many other verses in other chapters in the Quran), rebukes all Muslims who are indifferent to jihad—not a struggle only within the soul, but a military jihad with real live weapons. He is not misquoting his sacred text; rather, those moderates who misinform unsuspecting Westerners that jihad is an inner struggle of the soul only—these moderates are misquoting the Quran, not the fanatical Saudi cleric.

In contrast, history demonstrates that Jesus never wielded a sword against anyone, and in Matt. 10:34 he does not order his followers to swing one either, in order to kill their family opponents or for any reason. But a true disciple who is worthy of following Christ and who comes from a possibly hostile family has to use a sword of the will (never a physical sword) to sever away all opposition, even as far as taking up his cross—another metaphorical implement for the disciples. It is true that Jesus divides the world into two camps, those who follow him, and those who do not, those in the light, and those in the dark. However, he never tells his followers to wage war on everyone else, and certainly not on one’s family. If people in the second camp do not convert, they will not be harassed with swords in a jihad.

It is true that the Roman Emperor Constantine, Medieval Crusaders, and Protestants and Catholics have used the sword against unbelievers and against each other. However, none of them is foundational to Christianity—only Jesus is, and he never endorses the sword to spread his message. Also, Christianity has undergone Reform (c. 1400-1600) and has been put under the pressure of the Enlightenment (c. 1600-1800), which demanded peace. Both the Reformation and the Enlightenment have deeply influenced the founding of the US; hence, many Americans are the most tolerant and the most fervent in their Christian faith (and other faiths) among the industrialized nations around the world. In any case, according to the historical and literary contexts of Matt. 10:34, Jesus himself never calls for military jihad, and only he sets the genetic code for his movement.

On the other hand, Muhammad is foundational for Islam, and he indeed endorses using a sword, and he actually swings one on his frequent military raids and wars. His later Muslims are merely following their leader with a grounding in his Quran. They are not misinterpreting or misapplying their sacred text, for 9:123 (and many other verses) is clear and unambiguous, according to the historical and literary contexts.

Therefore, Muhammad and Jesus are in fact completely different from each other—as different as dark night and bright daylight. Muhammad commands his believers to kill family members with a physical sword, whereas Jesus says a spiritual sword, not a physical one, may sever family ties, so his disciples must be ready for that.

Thus, the Muslim apologists are misusing Matt. 10:34 in order to mask the violence coming from Muslim fanatics today, who are inspired by Muhammad and his Quran, the source of Islam.

Jesus saves. Muhammad killed.

Sometimes Muslim polemicists point out the wars in the Old Testament and the severe commands of God. But they have been explained and contrasted with Islamic wars in this article and this one. Besides, for Christians, Jesus Christ fulfills this area of the Old Testament and raises our vision to spiritual warfare, waged by preaching and praying, alone. He is our example to follow, and he did not wage military war on anyone, even though, as noted, he had at his disposal twelve legions of angels (Matthew 26:53). What Constantine and later Crusaders did is not foundational to Christianity.


This article has a companion piece, which may be read here.

[hope4dopes]

Who was trying to solve the world's problems? Just having a semi-sensible conversation with you would be enough for me. I don't think I had any aspiration higher than that.

You're a walking jackpot of cliches, begged questions and false analogies, micca. Yeah and your like being trapped on an elevator with Micheal Moore . slobbering idiotic nonsense with a mouthfull of liverwurst.

[spursncowboys]

All religions have political dimensions. The US Conference of Bishops lobbies against abortion? So what? What are you talking about? More Caliphate tinhat?
The muslims believe, in my opinion of how I interpret it, that their religious leader should also be their statesman. They do not have a cultural chrch/state seperation. The Bishops are against abortion because it is against their religion.

[boutons_deux]

Hasan, if proven to be a jihadist as the rabid right-wing has already "proven", kills the right-wing idea of "fighting (in continuous war(s)) Over There so we don't fight then Here". :lol

Right-wing, arm-chair-macho geopolitics fails again, but US and UK oil firms, previously shut out, are finally signing those Iraqi oil contracts, that Saddam was giving to the French, Russians, and Chinese.

And if the Army can't handle a single Major as jihadist, how is MacChrystal going to "befriend" millions of hated, they're-all-bad Muslims, which he says is the only way to "win" in Afghanistan.

[wut]

oil is a finite resource, it will be interesting to hear the left-wing come up with a new excuse when there is no more need for oil and islamic extremist groups are stilling attacking us, then again the left has always been good at adapting to make new excuses.

fwiw, you don't fight a fire at the tip of its flames.


And if the Army can't handle a single Major as jihadist, how is MacChrystal going to "befriend" millions of hated, they're-all-bad Muslims, which he says is the only way to "win" in Afghanistan.
This statement is so ignorant it's laughable.

It's a damn near fact that you cannot sustain a war without local support. The locals in Afghanistan do in fact want freedom and security, but it's hard for them to trust the U.S. to provide the security for them when the soldiers with all of their intelligence and equipment can't provide security even for themselves.

But alas, you have the Obama administration wondering what does winning even accomplish.

I can tell you what losing will accomplish....it's called Afghanistan in 1998 (http://www.cnn.com/US/9808/20/us.strikes.01/), terrorists angry and free to gather resources to attack.

Let's stop trying to tie this to the left or right political parties...to terrorists we are evil...it doesn't matter if you drive a prius and want to save the planet.

[boutons_deux]

"you cannot sustain a war without local support"

No argument there, but the US, as uninvited invader and long-time occupier, has no local support, nor does the US corrupt puppet Karzai, aka the president of (only) Kabul, and nor does the Karzai's "army", which has a reputation of raping young boys.

So the conflict remains, America invades 2 Muslim countries, seizes mosques in USA, demonizes Iran, convicts Hasan as Muslim terrorist before he's even charged, while MacChrystal is trying making friendly with Muslims in Afghanistan, America as pro-Muslim. GMAFB

St Ronnie would say: "I'm from the US government and I'm here to help you" :lol

[Winehole23]

Jihad

Quran 9:123 vs. Matthew 10:34

James M. ArlandsonSo you couldn't gloss it in your own words, gtown, but brought a pony instead.

I doubt comparing Christianity and Islam at a single point settles anything definitively, and restricting Jihad to literal physical struggle or the sword in Matthew to a figurative meaning when the verse is a clear concordance with Exodus 32:27 is tendentious.

The pissing match over whose religion is more peaceful or less warlike is just that. Religion may be twisted to justify war, violence, massacre or anything else. When it comes right down to it, any religion at all will do. Your assertion that Muslims who believe their religion teaches peace are not true Muslims is a variant of the no true scotsman fallacy, and Arlandson's gloss is a gloss of a single scriptural point. Even if he is roughly correct, he hasn't proven what you think he has. Weak.