More Minutes for Theo Ratliff [Archive]

Amuseddaysleeper

11-09-2009, 12:42 AM

anonoftheinternets

11-09-2009, 12:47 AM

No, he can't play major minutes, but I think Dice should move to the starting lineup and Ratliff should be one of the first bigs off the bench alongside Blair.

After reading the thread topic on the Spurs evolution to small ball and abandoning the two headed center concept, I think Ratliff has the potential to really shore up our interior D. I think with his ability to alter shots and Blair's knack for rebounding, the Spurs should be able to keep things tight defensively with this as the front line for the second unit.

Yeah, Blair is a spotty defender, but I think if he could get 20 minutes a game and actually get some real burn he could be a highly effective player.

But my main point for this thread was Ratliff, how much should the Spurs look to him to limit the points in the paint despite the fact that he can't play a lot of minutes?

you dont want to make theo (xxx years old) guy an integral part of our rotations. He should be limited to spot minutes where he is effective. I dont want to see our 'ship hopes pinned on him. They better find a way to win by making crisp rotations, and forcing people to make turnovers without relying on shotblocking. I mean for pete's sake with our offense we dont have to hold teams to 80s anymore. low 90s or even mid 90's would do.

Right now we are allowing points in the 100s, that will slowly improve as players understand teh rotations and defensive schemes. Have a little patience. if that doesnt work, were screwed anyways.

Amuseddaysleeper

11-09-2009, 12:51 AM

you dont want to make theo (xxx years old) guy an integral part of our rotations. He should be limited to spot minutes where he is effective. I dont want to see our 'ship hopes pinned on him. They better find a way to win by making crisp rotations, and forcing people to make turnovers without relying on shotblocking. I mean for pete's sake with our offense we dont have to hold teams to 80s anymore. low 90s or even mid 90's would do.

Right now we are allowing points in the 100s, that will slowly improve as players understand teh rotations and defensive schemes. Have a little patience. if that doesnt work, were screwed anyways.

I think part of the reason we are allowing nearly 100 ppg is because we have no one outside of Tim to block shots. Ratliff has shown (like in the sacramento game) that he can make some nice plays. I'm aware he isn't very durable but I think if we're going to experiment, we should at least try to play more "traditional" lineups as oppose to asking RJ or Finley to play the 4. I actually would like to see Ratliff play with Duncan. Our frontline would be slow, but I think one aspect the modern Spurs are missing compared to the defensive beast teams of a few seasons ago is the ability to dictate the tempo.

When you allow the teams to get into the paint at will (which becomes even more open when Duncan heads to the bench) you're not going to be able to get out on the break since you're allowing too many made FG's.

I think Ratliff should be given more of a chance.

JustinJDW

11-09-2009, 01:04 AM

I completely agree, but doing this would cause Bonner to get less minutes, which is something Pop can't fathom the idea of actually happening.

Mel_13

11-09-2009, 01:07 AM

I think part of the reason we are allowing nearly 100 ppg is because we have no one outside of Tim to block shots.

They didn't have anyone outside of Tim to block shots last year and only allowed 93.3 ppg. Obviously, having a second shotblocker would be a good thing, but an effective defense is not impossible without one.

I'm aware he isn't very durable

If you want Theo for the playoffs, it's not a really good idea to make him a rotation player in the regular season.

we should at least try to play more "traditional" lineups as oppose to asking RJ or Finley to play the 4.

There's a bunch of stuff in the smallball thread that wildly overstates the extent to which it has been used this year.

I think Theo can prove to be very valuable when the playoffs roll around, but his recent history tells us that his regular season minutes will have to be strictly rationed.

TDMVPDPOY

11-09-2009, 01:47 AM

we should always have at least one guy good enough on the court to cover the weakness of the other player....

itzsoweezee

11-09-2009, 02:11 AM

I completely agree, but doing this would cause Bonner to get less minutes, which is something Pop can't fathom the idea of actually happening.

this is really the crux of the problem. any kind of upgrade in the front court rotation will necessarily require bonner to move to the end of the bench. pop hasn't shown any interest whatsoever in doing that, let alone taking boner out of the starting lineup.

at this point, the best we can hope for is an injury. too bad the only spurs that tend to get injured are the ones that we need to be on the court the most.

Rappin' Pop

11-09-2009, 04:51 AM

I am not going to play him. He is just insurance policy if Bonner gets injured.

SA210

11-09-2009, 09:57 AM

I'm for Ratliff seeing some good minutes immediately. F Bonner F Finley!

Phenomanul

11-09-2009, 10:00 AM

He's no good to us is he's hurt by May... Pop's saving his health for when it really matters..

Höfner

11-09-2009, 10:25 AM

Good thinking. Start him and play him 35+ minutes.

ElNono

11-09-2009, 10:58 AM

He's no good to us is he's hurt by May... Pop's saving his health for when it really matters..

Like he saved Oberto or Gooden?

Until I actually SEE your claim with my very own eyes, I have to pile up your comment with the 'Finley will only be a 15 mpg player off the bench", and 'Bonner spaces the floor for Duncan'...

SpurNation

11-09-2009, 11:03 AM

I'de rather sacrifice the health of a Theo Ratliff or even McDyess with more regular season minutes than the health of Duncan in the playoffs from having to play too many.

That said...if Ratliff/McDyess/or even Blair could replace Bonner I think it would be done. I don't think it's a matter of Pop being stubborn more so than none of the afore mentioned players have the ability to break into the starting role at this point.

The "system" of our defense requires the other "post" player to log heavy minutes "chasing the ball". Our supposedly weak side post players are required, because of the system to have to be from anywhere near the top of the key, down to the corner, back down in the lane and then back out to the key. Something Duncan used to be able to do with ease in his younger days. Eventually Horry was used in that regard when he played for the Spurs and Duncan was asked less and less to do.

The reality is...the Spurs don't have a Horry. None of the post players not named Duncan on this team have that ability. And Duncan definately doesn't have that ability anymore.

Guess what? Bonner is as close to that Horry type player this team has. Ratliff and McDyess are best as zone type of defenders that do not have to rotate as much. Blair has the speed but not the height or ability to spread the floor.

My guess is unless the requirements of our weak side post players are changed by implementing a different offensive/defensive scheme...we'll continue to see Bonner as our starter. Not withstanding one of the other players mentioned able to effectively adjust.

ElNono

11-09-2009, 11:23 AM

The "system" of our defense requires the other "post" player to log heavy minutes "chasing the ball".

You mean our current defensive system (since Pop fell in love with Horry's 3 point game).
We didn't play like that at all with guys like Rasho, Nazr or DRob.

SpurNation

11-09-2009, 11:35 AM

You mean our current defensive system (since Pop fell in love with Horry's 3 point game).
We didn't play like that at all with guys like Rasho, Nazr or DRob.

Debatable. Though Duncan never was a 3 point threat...he used to rotate more on defense when he was younger much in the same manner Horry used to play in the system and what is being asked of our weak side post defenders now.

ElNono

11-09-2009, 11:54 AM

Debatable. Though Duncan never was a 3 point threat...he used to rotate more on defense when he was younger much in the same manner Horry used to play in the system and what is being asked of our weak side post defenders now.

I don't think it's really debatable. The 'old' system involved funneling driving guards baseline so they would end up meeting one of our two shot blockers, which basically packed the paint. If they decided to take shots from outside, you merely contest and let them take the low percentage shot. It's really not that much different of what the Lakers or Celtics do right now.

We started with this 'new' system after the series against Dallas because Dirk is such a freak matchup that he forced you to go guard him all the way to the baseline. Also, as explained by FWD in another thread, we lacked a skilled big on offense to really punish smaller teams.

Phenomanul

11-09-2009, 12:02 PM

Like he saved Oberto or Gooden?

Until I actually SEE your claim with my very own eyes, I have to pile up your comment with the 'Finley will only be a 15 mpg player off the bench", and 'Bonner spaces the floor for Duncan'...

I'm a big fan of Ratliff and have followed his career... Theo has a history of being hurt... just about every season he's been in the league in fact. Pop knows what Theo is capable of on the defensive end and what he can provide given adequate minutes... otherwise he wouldn't have been signed.

As for your comparison, Pop had no idea Oberto would develop that heart problem last year. And Gooden simply didn't have enough time to plead his case.

My initial comment still stands. Theo is no good to the Spurs if he is injured.

He does need to play ~10 mpg though... instead of completely rotting away on the bench...

lefty

11-09-2009, 12:03 PM

Rattler !!!!!

ElNono

11-09-2009, 12:04 PM

I'm a big fan of Ratliff and have followed his career... Theo has a history of being hurt... just about every season he's been in the league in fact. Pop knows what Theo is capable of on the defensive end and what he can provide given adequate minutes... otherwise he wouldn't have been signed.

As for your comparison, Pop had no idea Oberto would develop that heart problem last year. And Gooden simply didn't have enough time to plead his case.

My initial comment still stands. Theo is no good to the Spurs if he is injured.

He does need to play ~10 mpg though... instead of completely rotting away on the bench...

Don't get me wrong. I really sincerely hope you're right! :toast

SpurNation

11-09-2009, 12:17 PM

Yeah. I'm not so sure about the "funneling" aspect of our defense anymore since many teams now have the ability to space the floor with taller, athletic players forcing at least one of our bigs to defend the perimeter.

I'm not sure if Mcdyess, Ratliff, or Blair could do any better than Bonner if required to play the same way Bonner is asked to play.

But the point I was making is that defensively Duncan used to play more on the perimeter when younger because he had the mobility and skills to do so effectively and still get back to defend the post. (AE: Duncan v. Garnett, Duncan v. Novinski, etc.) None of the post players we have now can do that including Duncan anymore. And as crazy as it sounds...Bonner can do that more effectively than any of the other post players on the team. He may not be good at it...but he is better at it than anyone else. Kinda sucks for the Spurs when playing tall athletic teams...but it is what it is.

duhoh

11-09-2009, 12:39 PM

ratliff in his entire career has only played through the entire season thrice.

all the other years? aside from his rookie and sophomore years, under 65 games. we do not want to give him more minutes.

ElNono

11-09-2009, 12:41 PM

Yeah. I'm not so sure about the "funneling" aspect of our defense anymore since many teams now have the ability to space the floor with taller, athletic players forcing at least one of our bigs to defend the perimeter.

You're only forced if the other team is making shots. I can see how a incredibly good shooter like Dirk could force you to do that, but for the most part, I want players like Odom to take a jump shot instead of driving to the rim.

I'm not sure if Mcdyess, Ratliff, or Blair could do any better than Bonner if required to play the same way Bonner is asked to play.

I think personnel was actually what forced us to switch from the 'old' to the 'new' system. Having a guy like Horry around who was a tall guy that knew how to play on the perimeter, and was still pretty mobile and considering Duncan was dominant enough to grab above average rebounds made that combination a winner.
I actually think that with the current personnel we should really be trying to play more with the 'old' system than the new system.

But the point I was making is that defensively Duncan used to play more on the perimeter when younger because he had the mobility and skills to do so effectively and still get back to defend the post. (AE: Duncan v. Garnett, Duncan v. Novinski, etc.) None of the post players we have now can do that including Duncan anymore. And as crazy as it sounds...Bonner can do that more effectively than any of the other post players on the team. He may not be good at it...but he is better at it than anyone else. Kinda sucks for the Spurs when playing tall athletic teams...but it is what it is.

If the Spurs ever had a choice, they would always make Duncan the help defender.

SA210

11-09-2009, 12:48 PM

peskypesky

11-09-2009, 12:49 PM

save Ratliff for the playoffs. in fact, i think they should put him in a suit for a while and dress Ian.

SpurNation

11-09-2009, 01:22 PM

You're only forced if the other team is making shots. I can see how a incredibly good shooter like Dirk could force you to do that, but for the most part, I want players like Odom to take a jump shot instead of driving to the rim. Agreed.

I think personnel was actually what forced us to switch from the 'old' to the 'new' system. Having a guy like Horry around who was a tall guy that knew how to play on the perimeter, and was still pretty mobile and considering Duncan was dominant enough to grab above average rebounds made that combination a winner.
I actually think that with the current personnel we should really be trying to play more with the 'old' system than the new system. On this I agree with somewhat. Before Horry came along, Duncan used to play the part of tall, athlectic perimeter D and had the youth and mobility to do so. Horry came along and allowed the Spurs to continue that scheme. The difference between now and then is that our post players now don't have the ability to effectively get back defensively from perimeter D. Including Duncan.

If the Spurs ever had a choice, they would always make Duncan the help defender.
Problem is..they don't have that choice anymore. Duncan wouldn't last half a season if asked to do this much less have the ability to do it any more.

Again though, I'm not in disagreement with your thoughts. I would love it to see a combination of post players do what you suggest. It's just that I don't think we have enough attributes in any one post player at the time to effectively do what we all would like to see. For as good as their effenciencies may be in one aspect of their game...their defenciencies in other aspects are too easily exposed.

Keeping in mind who would come off the bench and provide the same. Out of these possible starter combinations which would you think would do the best in your scenario... Duncan/Bonner, Duncan/Blair, Duncan/Ratliff or Duncan/McDyess?

ElNono

11-09-2009, 02:04 PM

Keeping in mind who would come off the bench and provide the same. Out of these possible starter combinations which would you think would do the best in your scenario... Duncan/Bonner, Duncan/Blair, Duncan/Ratliff or Duncan/McDyess?

I would do what most every other team in the history of Basketball has done, and that for some reason has been lost somewhere by our coaching staff, which is to start your best players: Duncan/McDyess. Then I would make Blair the third big, Ratliff the fourth and Bonner the fifth.
I would love every game to be a blowout, so we can play Bonner more in garbage time.
And Duncan is the guy I would want to preserve, not Theo.

BatManu

11-09-2009, 02:40 PM

I can understand starting Bonner to stretch the floor, but his defense and rebounding are non-existent and McDyess can hit that shot from 15 all day which is more than we are getting from Bonner's 1-for-4 from downtown anway, so really, why not roll with McDyess?

MaNu4Tres

11-09-2009, 03:01 PM

I can understand starting Bonner to stretch the floor

Then why not bring back Steve Kerr, Dale Ellis, Chuck Person, or Jaren Jackson and put them at the 4.

SamoanTD

11-09-2009, 03:11 PM

save Ratliff for the playoffs. in fact, i think they should put him in a suit for a while and dress Ian.
sounds good to me patna

SpurNation

11-09-2009, 03:26 PM

I would do what most every other team in the history of Basketball has done, and that for some reason has been lost somewhere by our coaching staff, which is to start your best players: Duncan/McDyess. Then I would make Blair the third big, Ratliff the fourth and Bonner the fifth.
I would love every game to be a blowout, so we can play Bonner more in garbage time.
And Duncan is the guy I would want to preserve, not Theo.

Point accepted. But who is the "best" player to have on the court with Duncan in the current system now in place?

At his age, do you think McDyess is going to have the legs to maintain how the weak side defender has to play now? McDyess would run out of gas by the first half. That plus his shot would be no where near as effective with tired legs.

From and armchair coach perspective this is what I'd like to see...Run Duncan and Blair as the starters while switching McDyess and Duncan in regular intervals depending on game time situations. Ratliff and Bonner used sporatically to sub out for Blair all the while switching weak side responsibilities during those times as to allow for reducing the physical demands inheritly associated to playing the weak side in this system.

ElNono

11-09-2009, 03:48 PM

Point accepted. But who is the "best" player to have on the court with Duncan in the current system now in place?

At his age, do you think McDyess is going to have the legs to maintain how the weak side defender has to play now? McDyess would run out of gas by the first half. That plus his shot would be no where near as effective with tired legs.

From and armchair coach perspective this is what I'd like to see...Run Duncan and Blair as the starters while switching McDyess and Duncan in regular intervals depending on game time situations. Ratliff and Bonner used sporatically to sub out for Blair all the while switching weak side responsibilities during those times as to allow for reducing the physical demands inheritly associated to playing the weak side in this system.

You asked what combo would do best in MY scenario.
In MY scenario I wouldn't play the new/current system. I would go back to the old system, where the C and PF pretty much camp in the lane, and dare the other team to beat you with jumpers, limiting that to a single shot, whenever possible. It also works in our advantage in that if you rebound well, you can get the fast break started fairly quickly for a guy like TP and RJ.
I think the personnel we have lends itself more to that 'old' system. In that context, I would take the better rebounder/scorer, which is McDyess.
Don't forget Antonio is actually used to playing quite a lot of minutes. If my memory serves me well, he averaged near 30 mpg the last couple of seasons.

angelbelow

11-09-2009, 03:50 PM

I think Theo would definitely help us out but I dont mind him not logging any minutes - since hes so injury prone. I would rather we hold off until Feburary or March before we start playing him regularly. For now, just a few spot minutes here and there.

SpurNation

11-09-2009, 04:37 PM

You asked what combo would do best in MY scenario.
In MY scenario I wouldn't play the new/current system. I would go back to the old system, where the C and PF pretty much camp in the lane, and dare the other team to beat you with jumpers, limiting that to a single shot, whenever possible. It also works in our advantage in that if you rebound well, you can get the fast break started fairly quickly for a guy like TP and RJ.
I think the personnel we have lends itself more to that 'old' system. In that context, I would take the better rebounder/scorer, which is McDyess.
Don't forget Antonio is actually used to playing quite a lot of minutes. If my memory serves me well, he averaged near 30 mpg the last couple of seasons.

:tu Yeah... in your scheme scenario that works for me too.