Minute Men Founder Declares Victory, Goes Home Early

[Nbadan]

TUCSON, Ariz. (AP) - The chief organizer of the Minuteman Project, which attracted hundreds of volunteers to watch for illegal immigrants and smugglers along the Mexican border, said Monday he's leaving his post early.

Jim Gilchrist said the watch project has been a success and will continue through the end of the month as planned, but under a different name.

"The operation is continuing, but it's not under the Minuteman Project," Gilchrist said. "There's nothing for us to do here. We're bored to death. But people are staying here."
....
Border Patrol spokesman Andy Adame expressed surprise at Monday's announcement. "Gilchrist said it (the project) was going to run for a month. He takes off halfway through and declares victory? Sounds kind of strange," Adame said.


Jim Gilchrist got the attention he was looking for. The one time Air Force Officer was not meant for the grunt work of actually having to walk around with a lot of gear looking for illegals.

He had his 2-weeks vacation in Arizona but now that temperatures on the desert are beginning to rise and the media is hot on the trail of Michael Jackson, The Vatican, Tom DeLay, and no longer hauling their satellite vans to the Arizona Border, Jim don't wanna play no more.

Now he can write on his resume that he organized, and trained his littlie militia to protect the United States of America's Borders from terrorist invasions and go on speaking engagements for $5000 a pop.

Hell, W will probably make him the next terrorist czar because of his two week vacation the boarder.

[MannyIsGod]

Hey Dan, you realize the point for this was attention right? That was admitted. What I'm wondering is, what is YOUR point?

[Useruser666]

So what are you saying Dan? You spend 2 weeks there and then you might have grounds to speak on the subject.

[Useruser666]

Oh shit, I was thinking exactly like Manny! :lol

[bigzak25]

i heard on the radio the name was going to change to the civilian homeland security yadda yadda yadda and they were going to start targeting businesses that were hiring illegals.....

[Nbadan]

Hey Dan, you realize the point for this was attention right? That was admitted. What I'm wondering is, what is YOUR point?

Well if the point isn't obvious enough to you maybe you should look in yourself for the answer. These guys said they were gonna stay there for a month and two weeks later their leader is calling it quits cause he's board. Nice way to bring attention to a problem which isn't such a bad problem after all.

[MannyIsGod]

The ease of crossing the border is not a problem? I don't know what your defention of security is, but mine certainly involves secure (notice the simmilarity between the words secure and security?) borders.

The main objective has been accomplished, and while I would have prefered they follow through on what they said, the majority of the group is staying.

The fact is they succeed in drawing national attention to something that is definetly a problem.

[Nbadan]

The fact is they succeed in drawing national attention to something that is definetly a problem.

To bad W and The Republican legislature don't agree. Mexicans who cross the boarder work harder and pay more in SS and Federal Income taxes than the services they use.

[Nbadan]

The ease of crossing the border is not a problem? I don't know what your defention of security is, but mine certainly involves secure (notice the simmilarity between the words secure and security?) borders.

We inspect 5% of cargo containers coming into U.S. ports. Which do you think is most likely, a terra st' bringing in WDM on a ship hidden in a cargo container, or across the boarder on a burro'?

[The Ressurrected One]

We inspect 5% of cargo containers coming into U.S. ports. Which do you think is most likely, a terra st' bringing in WDM on a ship hidden in a cargo container, or across the boarder on a burro'?
Across the border on a burro.

And, trust me, the United States Government is inspecting more than 5% of cargo containers coming into U.S. ports...I don't care what the papers or the U.S. Government says. If they try to sneak a nuke into the country in a cargo container on a ship...it'll be detected. Chemical weapons may be a little more difficult to spot...

[The Ressurrected One]

those guys act like the immigrants (or the coyotes) are stupid enough to cross at the locations where the minutemen (freud) announced they were going to patrol
lololol
You know it's not an infinite border with an infinite number of places to cross, right? It wouldn't take that many people to patrol the lengths of border where crossings are possible and most likely.

[The Ressurrected One]

do you realize that the rio grande (thanks to americans) is about waist-deep in alost of places?
Yeah, I do realize that. I also realize much of the terrain on the American side of the Rio Grande is unforgiving with landowners that are even more unforgiving. You just can't wade across the border and hope to end up with a gas-powered weed eater and a day labor job overnight. There are a lot of bones bleaching in places law enforcement have never been. Why? Because it's stupid to cross there...and many don't make it.

Plus, if you do establish a crossing point that is remote, it takes about two days to discover it and shut it down. No, the majority of illegal immigration takes place within a few miles of border crossings or in place near civilization and improved roads. Such as where IH-10 and IH-8 come to within a couple of miles of the border.

[The Ressurrected One]

I've still yet to see a good answer to the question of why these people don't just cross legally.

[The Ressurrected One]

it's hard as hell to get a work visa
Yet, people do.

But, why is it hard?

[MannyIsGod]

To bad W and The Republican legislature don't agree. Mexicans who cross the boarder work harder and pay more in SS and Federal Income taxes than the services they use.
Too bad nobody in Washington agrees regardless of their party affiliation.

Why am I even bothering with you?

[MannyIsGod]

We inspect 5% of cargo containers coming into U.S. ports. Which do you think is most likely, a terra st' bringing in WDM on a ship hidden in a cargo container, or across the boarder on a burro'?
I think both could easily be used to transport materials and terrorists into this country.

But what it boils down to, is one is an issue that the Democrats and you can turn around and use to their advantadge, while the other is an issue that holds both parties at fault. You'd rather bury your head in the sand.

[MannyIsGod]

Something being hard is not an excuse to allow illegal (and more importantly, undocumented and untracked) immigration.

[MannyIsGod]

Who cares what they would rather do? Border security and immigration policy should not be about the convience of the immigrant, but what suits the country's needs.

[Useruser666]

We inspect 5% of cargo containers coming into U.S. ports. Which do you think is most likely, a terra st' bringing in WDM on a ship hidden in a cargo container, or across the boarder on a burro'?

Dan you act like you know what you are taking about. It is IMPOSSIBLE to inspect every container that comes into this country. Do you have any idea how many containers come into the US every day? The manpower and facilities to make such checking possible would be ridiculous in cost and size. You act as though we had always checked these containers and then Bush put a stop to it just now. Why not ask, "How come Bush doesn't have an FBI agent on every corner of every street in the US? He must not care!". That is exactly what you are saying when you question shipping container inspection.

[Useruser666]

What’s the volume of traffic at U.S. ports?
Some 7,500 ships with foreign flags make 51,000 calls on U.S. ports each year. They carry the bulk of the approximately 890 million tons of goods that come into the country, including 7.8 million containers, 175 billion gallons of oil and other fuels, and hundreds of thousands of cruise-ship passengers and crew members. The volume of traffic gives terrorists opportunities to smuggle themselves or their weapons into the United States with little risk of detection; in May 2002, there were reports about 25 Islamist extremists who may have entered the United States by hiding in shipping containers.

That's 21,369 containers a day. Now tell me how easy it is to search through that many containers in a day?

[ClintSquint]

I'm glad this ruckus is over.

[desflood]

Arnold got it right...

Arnold: 'Close the Borders'
Tuesday, April 19, 2005


SAN FRANCISCO — Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger (search) said Tuesday the nation's policy on preventing illegal immigration is too lax, telling a group of newspaper publishers the United States needs to "close the borders."

"Close the borders in California and all across Mexico and in the United States," Schwarzenegger said at the annual meeting of the Newspaper Association of America (search). "Because I think it is just unfair to have all those people coming across, have the borders open the way it is, and have this kind of lax situation."

Schwarzenegger's remarks were later clarified by his spokeswoman, who said the governor supports greater security along the nation's borders but was not calling for their complete closure.

"The governor has talked before about the need to ensure that immigrants are put on a path toward fully participating in California's economy," spokeswoman Margita Thompson said. "But he feels they need to enter the country the right way, and must not undermine important security issues. He feels that the border needs to be secure."

During his speech, Schwarzenegger also suggested exploring several policy proposals aimed at addressing illegal immigration, including President Bush's proposed guest worker program and federal legislation to pave the way for undocumented workers in the United States to attain legal status.

[desflood]

...and then wussed out.

Schwarzenegger Apologizes For Border Remark
Governor Says Remarks Were 'A Total Screw-Up'

POSTED: 12:46 pm PDT April 20, 2005
UPDATED: 2:28 pm PDT April 20, 2005

SACRAMENTO -- Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger moved quickly Wednesday to apologize for suggesting that California's border with Mexico should be closed in an effort to solve the nation's illegal immigration problem.


Schwarzenegger said he misspoke in comments to newspaper editors and publishers Tuesday, intending to say the border should be secured. The governor blamed the error on his sometimes flawed use of English -- his second language.

"Yesterday was a total screw-up in the words I used," the governor said at a press conference. "Because instead of closing, I meant securing. I think maybe my English, I need to go back to school and study a little bit."

The contrition seemed to quell the issue at the Capitol. Hispanic lawmakers -- many of whom are also rival Democrats -- said they accepted his apology.

"I don't think the governor identifies himself with that kind of rhetoric," said Assembly Speaker Fabian Nunez, D-Los Angeles. "I don't know why he said it but I'm very pleased he has totally removed himself from those folks who espouse that kind of hatred."

Nunez's office, however, pointed out that Schwarzenegger said something very similar in a 2003 interview with Fox TV host Bill O'Reilly.

Margita Thompson, Schwarzenegger's spokeswoman, said it was unfortunate Nunez was promoting a "story that has no merit."

She pointed out that Nunez told a reporter only Tuesday that he too may have misspoken about holding up negotiations this summer on the state budget because of a disagreement with the governor on workers' compensation reform.

On Tuesday, before the annual meeting of the Newspaper Association of America in San Francisco, Schwarzenegger said it was "unfair to have all those people coming across, have the borders open the way it is, and have this kind of lax situation."

The Republican governor backed away from those statements Wednesday, saying that while securing the border is an important issue -- he does not want to close it.

"We have a terrific relationship with Mexico," Schwarzenegger said. "I filmed four movies in Mexico, I love to go on vacation to Mexico. We have a great trade agreement with Mexico."

[Nbadan]

You talking legal or illegal immigrants? Last I chcked, illegal immigrants don't pay into SS or pay taxes. They're the problem, not legal immigrants.

A recent government(?) report showed that illegal workers in the U.S., on average pay, more into Federal taxes and the SS system than the services which they use. Of course, most never become eligible for SS in the first place.

[Nbadan]

That's 21,369 containers a day. Now tell me how easy it is to search through that many containers in a day?

Everyday that the WH fails to protect the country is another day that we risk being attacked with a hidden WMD. We have the money, expertise and the technology now to inspect 80-90% of these containers coming into the country, but I think the WH guestimates that in reality the likely-hood of this type of attack happening anytime soon is very remote at best. Remember, in the 80's and early 90's we relied on high-tech surveillence to stop nuclear proliferation in the ME, and look how well that has worked for us. Clearly, if there is a plan, the reliance here is on human intelligence. Working with the Mossad and other world intelligence agencies, the germans, french, Italians, and Spanish..etc...etc...to stop threats like this from ever materializing in the first place.

As far as how this relates to the boarder, I think that some people need to realize that just because they look the same, not all brown skinned people are the same. Middle Eastern men, presumably Islamists hell-bent on attacking the U.S., would have a hard time fitting into either Central or South American culture. They would stick out like a sore thumb, and given our assets in the region, the CIA would be on them like white on rice.

[desflood]

A recent government(?) report showed that illegal workers in the U.S., on average pay, more into Federal taxes and the SS system than the services which they use. Of course, most never become eligible for SS in the first place.
Just about everything I've read (New York Times, Washington Post, various papers from Seattle, San Diego, Massachusettes, etc etc) says that illegals pay large amounts into SS, but that they are eligible if they can prove they worked in the U.S. for at least 18 months. Will see if I can find a link for that info.

[Nbadan]

Eligible for what? disability payments?

Many people may not know this, but Illegal immigrant labor even helped to rebuild the Pentagon after 911..


Many of the immigrants rebuilding the Pentagon came to America the hard way, sneaking across the Mexican border. Ortiz sloshed across the Rio Grande 13 years ago. On a recent day, he gazed from a viewing platform at the restored Pentagon's vast gray wall. "Who would have thought, 13 years ago, when I was on my porch in El Salvador, that I'd be standing outside the Pentagon?" marveled the supervisor. Ortiz is among the lucky ones. Like many Salvadorans who arrived in the late 1980s, he quickly got a temporary work permit and eventually became a legal permanent resident. He is the father of three U.S.-born girls and owns a house in Fort Totten. "A few years from now, we're going to try the citizenship," said Ortiz, who works for a Pentagon subcontractor, Potomac Services. Others have fewer guarantees about their future.

Danilo Aleman stripped asbestos for three months in the fall as part of the demolition that began soon after the hijacked American Airlines jet slammed into the Pentagon's western face. Like many workers in the high-risk asbestos-removal field, Aleman travels to projects across the country, jumping into his car when a recruiter calls. At the Pentagon, he worked 12-hour shifts seven days a week, tumbling into bed at night in a cheap hotel room he shared with two other immigrants. For the Honduran immigrant, a fervent patriot who displays the U.S. flag on his car, his bandanna and even his 6-month-old son's clothing, working at the Pentagon was an honor.

"I'd give my life for the United States," said Aleman, 28, a New Orleans resident. He came to this country illegally eight years ago, fleeing poverty, and obtained working papers in 1999. "This is the country that's fed me. I even tell my mother . . . I owe everything I have to this country." But it's not clear whether Aleman will be able to stay here. Like many Honduran and Salvadoran laborers at the Pentagon, he has temporary protected status, which grants them short-term work permits while their countries recover from disasters. The permits for Hondurans expire in July; the U.S. government hasn't said whether it will extend them.

ailf.org (http://www.ailf.org/pubed/pe_911_article_latinomuscle.asp)

[Nbadan]

Fear - the constant mass control mechanism of this administration. We have been told over and over that these people are "stealing American jobs" without ever looking into how many of our jobs are being shipped overseas everyday.

They have been told over and over that all the jobs are drying up because of the high cost of union labor, and all the illegals working for next to nothing.

They have been told over and over that gays getting married "will destroy marriage as we know it" without ever asking themselves how it would impact their wedding vows?

They have been told over and over that everyone who isn't a white male is some type of special interest group looking for a free ride on the taxpayer dime, that it pushes costs up, drives jobs away, and in general is the reason for any failure that this administration has had. Its always someone else's fault.

At the same time, the Republican theocracy has the keys to heaven in it's hands (or wants everyone to believe they do), that it's good to do without and suffer in Jesus's name, you'll get your reward later (hmmm, sounds a little like the 19 virgins huh?). Sound familiar Dave Ramsey?

The US economy runs on rampant consumerism - and to keep it going the message is always the same - everyone else has one, you're just not good enough if you don't, you're not special enough if you don't own one of these. So they rush off to the mall, running up credit card debt they can't pay all to make their egos feel better. And since that still doesn't do the trick, they need an enemy, a scapegoat to feel superior to - the black woman, the gay guy, the illegal alien.

Who gets the blame doesn't matter - as long as there's someone else to be responsible for their own shortcomings.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

We inspect 5% of cargo containers coming into U.S. ports.

Of course, something like 90% of the cargo containers are inspected in their points of origin before they can even head this way.

But just to play devil's advocate for the sake of Dan... say no inspections took place in foreign ports.

Who gives a shit if we inspected 100% of cargo containers in our ports. In case you hadn't noticed, that would make them... in our ports.

What good does inspecting the containers on our soil do for us if they've put a Russian nuke on there? All they have to do once the ship docks (hell, they could even do it in the shipping channel) is blow the thing, it's still gonna wipe out the port and a good chunk if not all of the port city...

My numbers may be a little off on this one because it's coming off of memory of a fellow classmate who did her thesis on the threat of WMD via international cargo shipping container ships, but if I remember right by 2006 or so all the major foreign shipping ports (something like 95% of all containers arriving in the US go through 8 major foreign ports) will have radiation detectors installed and scanning all containers bound for western points of entry.

[Nbadan]

What good does inspecting the containers on our soil do for us if they've put a Russian nuke on there? All they have to do once the ship docks (hell, they could even do it in the shipping channel) is blow the thing, it's still gonna wipe out the port and a good chunk if not all of the port city...

That's exactly where human intelligence comes in. It is the first and most important line of defense to this type of attack.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Well then why are you bitching about how many we inspect once they get HERE?

The inspectors use a comprehensive threat matrix to determine which cargo gets a closer eye, so why do you have your panties in a bunch about it?

[Nbadan]

Well then why are you bitching about how many we inspect once they get HERE?

The inspectors use a comprehensive threat matrix to determine which cargo gets a closer eye, so why do you have your panties in a bunch about it?

Ummm...I've been trying to show the correlation in strategies between the approches we are most likely taking to cargo containers and how this relates to border security. The reason we don't have an army patrolling the border is because we have and have always had 'human assets' in the border region, our eyes if you will, that are already in place. If there is anything but immigrants looking for food, water and a few dollars coming through we know about it.

Also, It's unlikely that civilian patrols did anything to slow immigration, all the Minute men did was what every other effort to curb illegal immigration on limited parts of the border always do - force immigrants to cross on another part of the border.

[MannyIsGod]

Dan, the problem is that the border is a much easier way to smuggle across non nuclear material in order to perform attacks.

I'm all for mexicans being allowed to this country to work the fields and whatever other jobs they would like. I'm not for them collecting SS benefits, but they should have a special tax they pay in order to come over.

But I want it all documented. That only goes to serve the interests of everyone involved.

And don't try to say that the border isn't a problem right now. You were one of hte ones right there echoing Moore's famouse rant on the Oregon coast and how badly patrolled it was. This is the same situation, if not worse.

[whottt]

Mexicans are one thing...

But you fellows are telling me that the damn Burros are coming over here illgally and taking WMD carrying jobs away from hard working American Mules..

I think any Burro caught crossing illegally should be shot on sight!

I can handle folks crossing illegally(kinda) but just tell them to leave their fucking Burros at home...sheesh the nerve of some people...next time I see a guy walking down the street with his Burro, and it looks like one that entered the country illgally? I am gonna give that guy a piece of my mind AND call the border patrol.

Next thing you know we'll have homeless illegal burros eating into our tax dollars and wallets! This must stop!

[Useruser666]

Dan, there is NO WAY we can inspect 100% of the containers coming into this country. IT IS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO DO. Do you have any idea how difficult it can be to search or inspect a container? Do you have any idea how big a container is? Do you have any idea how quickly a cargo ship is unloaded? Do you have any idea how many people, how much equipment, and how much money it would take to inspect 100% of the containers coming into this country every day?

21,369 containers a day, 7.8 million containers a year. The US does not have the man power, the equipment, or the logistical backbone to undertake searching every container. Because so much of this freight is time critical, adding the long wait of having everything being searched to it's shipment time would KILL most of the people depending on imported goods. It is simply not possible. Maybe years and years from now technology will find a way.

[MannyIsGod]

Chris, he all of that acknowledged that.

[Useruser666]

Chris, he all of that acknowledged that.

Uh, then explain this Manny.


Everyday that the WH fails to protect the country is another day that we risk being attacked with a hidden WMD. We have the money, expertise and the technology now to inspect 80-90% of these containers coming into the country, but I think the WH guestimates that in reality the likely-hood of this type of attack happening anytime soon is very remote at best. Remember, in the 80's and early 90's we relied on high-tech surveillence to stop nuclear proliferation in the ME, and look how well that has worked for us. Clearly, if there is a plan, the reliance here is on human intelligence. Working with the Mossad and other world intelligence agencies, the germans, french, Italians, and Spanish..etc...etc...to stop threats like this from ever materializing in the first place.

As far as how this relates to the boarder, I think that some people need to realize that just because they look the same, not all brown skinned people are the same. Middle Eastern men, presumably Islamists hell-bent on attacking the U.S., would have a hard time fitting into either Central or South American culture. They would stick out like a sore thumb, and given our assets in the region, the CIA would be on them like white on rice.

He still doesn't get it. The US couldn't even inspect 20% of the containers that come into this country everyday. It's a needle in a haystack. A drop in the ocean.

[MannyIsGod]

You need to read his last posts for his intent. He was doing that to make a point. I don't think he made it very well, but arguing what he already knows is pretty fruitless.

[Useruser666]

I don't see it Manny. Please point it out. I only see where he states, "We have the money, expertise and the technology now to inspect 80-90% of these containers coming into the country, but I think the WH guestimates that in reality the likely-hood of this type of attack happening anytime soon is very remote at best."

Where does he say we don't have the money, expertise, and technology to inspect countainers at such a high rate?

[MannyIsGod]

That's exactly where human intelligence comes in. It is the first and most important line of defense to this type of attack.


Ummm...I've been trying to show the correlation in strategies between the approches we are most likely taking to cargo containers and how this relates to border security.The reason we don't have an army patrolling the border is because we have and have always had 'human assets' in the border region, our eyes if you will, that are already in place.


He knows that searching the containers would be useless and impossible, and that we reley on human intelligence to fix that. He's drawing the comparison to the border situation and saying we don't need the Minutemen out there because like the shipping containers, we can't cover everything and instead reley on human intelligence gathering.

So, you can keep arguing that we can't search the containers, but why?

[Useruser666]

I guess that is a rough about face. I think it's poor to criticize the government for not searching the containers or not patroling the border. I think more can be done for the border dilema than is possible in regards to searching containers.

[MannyIsGod]

I agree with you.

[Useruser666]

Symptoms of a heart attack can include:

http://www.diseases-explained.com/HeartAttack/Resources/hattacksymptomsil.gif

[Gatita]

Someone made a point saying that the U.S. government are always wanting to place the blame on someone else. I agree that the U.S. government is always seeking a scapegoat for its mistakes. Many don't like the idea of Mexicans coming over, they feel that they are being invaded. I take this personally because this country is where it is today, economically, because of the sweat off of Mexican's backs. They do all the grunt work, that we as Americans wouldn't do. We have become a society that will not accept minimum wage. Yes, I do believe we need tighter security at the borders, but we shouldn't make it so damn fustrating and difficult to let those in who want to work. Not all of them are here for the free benefits, some are, but I don't think the majority of them are. And it is true that undocumented Mexicans pump more money into the US, than those who are here taking free US benefits.