The difference between Mc Viegh and Hasan.

[hope4dopes]

We call Mc Viegh a domestic terrorist, and we are calling Hasan a loony and or victim of stress. How are they different/alike.....thoughts. Do you consider them both terrorists. If not...... why not.

[spursncowboys]

We call Mc Viegh a domestic terrorist, and we are calling Hasan a loony and or victim of stress. How are they different/alike.....thoughts.
McVeigh is white.
Hasan isn't.

[Crookshanks]

We call Mc Viegh a domestic terrorist, and we are calling Hasan a loony and or victim of stress. How are they different/alike.....thoughts.
Hasan is Muslim
McVeigh wasn't

[clambake]

they were both pissed.
and
one used a gun, the other used a bomb.

[EmptyMan]

What was McViegh's last meal? The DC Sniper had Chicken and Red Sauce.

[hope4dopes]

if that was what he wanted for his last meal, he deserves to be put down.

[hope4dopes]

McVeigh is white.
Hasan isn't. do you consider them both terrorists

[hope4dopes]

they were both pissed.
and
one used a gun, the other used a bomb. do you consider them both terrorists

[clambake]

not yet.

[hope4dopes]

not yet. can you elaborate.

[clambake]

sure

[clambake]

are you in a hurry, or do you insist on this conclusion?

[clambake]

so, micca, are they both terrorismist?

[hope4dopes]

:lmao...... sorry, look whose talking right.

[clambake]

did hasan have help in building his guns?

[spursncowboys]

do you consider them both terrorists
Yes

[EmptyMan]

If it walks like a terrorist, dresses like a terrorist, talks like a terrorist, kills like a terrorist...

[clambake]

all killers are turrist.

better?

[jack sommerset]

Great example Hope. The White dude is called a terrorist and should be. BUT douchebags like Obama don't want to use the word terrorist on a muslim who did not want to fight other muslims so he killed americans to get out of it. That is a fact :lol But some of you want to dispute this. Seriously, take a good hard look at yourself and see how fucking pathetic you are, troll or not a troll, fucking lame.

And what do some people say...."People gave him shit all the time, you know he had a bumper sticker with the word Muslim on it and somebody tore it off his car" :lol . Fucking lame. My God man, they tore his bumper sticker off his car! Civil rights has moved in a direction many should be ashamed of.

[clambake]

Great example Hope. The White dude is called a terrorist and should be. BUT douchebags like Obama don't want to use the word terrorist on a muslim who did not want to fight other muslims so he killed americans to get out of it. That is a fact :lol But some of you want to dispute this. Seriously, take a good hard look at yourself and see how fucking pathetic you are, troll or not a troll, fucking lame.

And what do some people say...."People gave him shit all the time, you know he had a bumper sticker with the word Muslim on it and somebody tore it off his car" :lol . Fucking lame. My God man, they tore his bumper sticker off his car! Civil rights has moved in a direction many should be ashamed of.

yep, people fucked with him for being muslim.

[hope4dopes]

yep, people fucked with him for being muslim. Do you feel that's relevant.

[George Gervin's Afro]

We call Mc Viegh a domestic terrorist, and we are calling Hasan a loony and or victim of stress. How are they different/alike.....thoughts. Do you consider them both terrorists. If not...... why not.

Ok, I'll slow down for you:

Lets wait until all of the facts can be verified before making any claim? ok?

If the EVIDENCE shows that this guy was bent on avenging his brothers in arms then he most certainly is a terrorist.


What you morons don't seem to get is there are many Muslims around this country and the world who are helping us right now. Yet now, you want the presdient to crucify the Islamic faith..brilliant.


Yes McVeigh is a terrorist

[hope4dopes]

Ok, I'll slow down for you:

Lets wait until all of the facts can be verified before making any claim? ok?

If the EVIDENCE shows that this guy was bent on avenging his brothers in arms then he most certainly is a terrorist.


What you morons don't seem to get is there are many Muslims around this country and the world who are helping us right now. Yet now, you want the presdient to crucify the Islamic faith..brilliant.


Yes McVeigh is a terrorist what is it specifically that makes you define Mc viegh as a terrorist and not Hassan

[DarkReign]

McVeigh = pre 9/11
Hasan = post 9/11

[George Gervin's Afro]

what is it specifically that makes you define Mc viegh as a terrorist and not Hassan

I said I want to wait for all of the facts before I calim hasan is a terrorist...comprende?

Mcvaigh is a terrorist because one he killed 168 people and two he wanted to attack the govt over his political beliefs..

So if the evidence states that hasan did this to attack the US govt over his politicla and religious beliefs he is a terrorist as well..

If he snapped then he'e a spree killer.

[hope4dopes]

I said I want to wait for all of the facts before I calim hasan is a terrorist...comprende? O.K but with the facts we have at hand now,what makes you define Mc viegh as a terrorist and not Hasan

[George Gervin's Afro]

O.K but with the facts we have at hand now,what makes you define Mc viegh as a terrorist and not Hasan

Mcveigh is a terrorist because one, he killed 168 people and two he wanted to attack the govt over because of his political beliefs..

So if the evidence states that hasan did this to attack the US govt over his political and religious beliefs he is a terrorist as well..

If he snapped then he's a spree killer and not a terrorist.

[hope4dopes]

Mcveigh is a terrorist because one, he killed 168 people and two he wanted to attack the govt over because of his political beliefs..

So if the evidence states that hasan did this to attack the US govt over his political and religious beliefs he is a terrorist as well..

If he snapped then he's a spree killer and not a terrorist. How do you come to the conclusion that they are different.Mc viegh made comments of dicontent so did Hasan many time, how are they different.

[George Gervin's Afro]

How do you come to the conclusion that they are different.Mc viegh made comments of dicontent so did Hasan many time, how are they different.

What don't you get about wanting to wait to hear all of the facts? McVeigh's issues were well docmneted after the fact so I am going to give mr hasan the same benefit of the doubt until i know all of the facts. how many times do i have to repeat that? The investigatoon on mcveigh took a year? maybe two? and you want me to decide on what fox news reports whether he is the same category that mcveigh is..you can jump the gun. I'll wait to hear the evidence which is what most critical thinking people do when making a decision or accusation.

[FromWayDowntown]

Is that dude who had 11 dead bodies in his house in Cleveland a terrorist?

[hope4dopes]

What don't you get about wanting to wait to hear all of the facts? McVeigh's issues were well docmneted after the fact so I am going to give mr hasan the same benefit of the doubt until i know all of the facts. how many times do i have to repeat that? The investigatoon on mcveigh took a year? maybe two? and you want me to decide on what fox news reports whether he is the same category that mcveigh is..you can jump the gun. I'll wait to hear the evidence which is what most critical thinking people do when making a decision or accusation. So you'll get back to us in a year or two right.

[George Gervin's Afro]

So you'll get back to us in a year or two right.

yes I'll make my decision once all the facts are in. Glad I could clear that up for you..although it took me repeating myself at least 4 times...

[hope4dopes]

Yeah you cleared it up alright, thanks.

[FromWayDowntown]

I'm not really sure what difference it makes to define this as an act of terrorism or not. I suppose that in some quarters, defining it as terrorism is a proxy for continuing to vilify Muslims and for pressing onward with the amorphous GWT. At bottom, we're dealing with a situation in which a man, for whatever reason, took it upon himself to kill many and attempt to kill many others. Whether that was terrorism or not seems irrelevant. Whether that was religiously-motivated or not seems irrelevant. I don't think that there are broader views of the world to be taken from characterizing this as terrorism or not.

If we call it terrorism, are we going to invade Killeen to wipe out the terrorists there? Are we going to stifle the religious practices of Muslims in America? Are we going to intern perceived threats on a broad basis because of the act of a single madman -- however he may have been motivated?

[DarrinS]

Is that dude who had 11 dead bodies in his house in Cleveland a terrorist?

No, but McVeigh and Hasan are.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Yeah you cleared it up alright, thanks.

do you routinely make decisions without knowing all of the facts?

[Oh, Gee!!]

I think that a major difference in how many of us view the separate acts is the manner in which they were planned and executed. McVeigh spent months planning the attack, getting the materials, and finally committing the act. McVeigh's chosen method (bombing a building) mimics the conventional mode and weaponry of a terrorist attack. The site of the bombing (an office building filled with civilians) mimics the type of place we think of when we think about the typical terrorist attack.


Hasan’s attack has the earmarks of a typical shooting spree: man with gun shoots and kills several of his co-workers. It may have taken him months to plan, or it could have been a spur of the moment type of act. It doesn’t matter which it was, but you would have to admit that the act itself is vastly different than McVeigh’s in the way it was executed, and in the way that it fits into our views (perhaps outdated) on the way terrorist attacks are committed. I am hesitant to say it was a planned terrorist attack, but as more evidence has come to light I am willing to concede that those who are calling it are terrorist attack have a point, something I posted in the other thread a couple of days ago:


You could conclude that the act was an act of terrorism given that:
[A] he commited a dangerous act or crime (mass murder)
[B] against civilians/non-combatants (enlisted men at home, not armed, and not yet deployed for battle)
[C] with the apparent intent to cause a shift in policy (to force the US Army to change its current policy on non-deployment of Muslim enlisted men who like the shooter would ask not to be forced to fight other Muslims).

[George Gervin's Afro]

I think that a major difference in how many of us view the separate acts is the manner in which they were planned and executed. McVeigh spent months planning the attack, getting the materials, and finally committing the act. McVeigh's chosen method (bombing a building) mimics the conventional mode and weaponry of a terrorist attack. The site of the bombing (an office building filled with civilians) mimics the type of place we think of when we think about the typical terrorist attack.


Hasan’s attack has the earmarks of a typical shooting spree: man with gun shoots and kills several of his co-workers. It may have taken him months to plan, or it could have been a spur of the moment type of act. It doesn’t matter which it was, but you would have to admit that the act itself is vastly different than McVeigh’s in the way it was executed, and in the way that it fits into our views (perhaps outdated) on the way terrorist attacks are committed. I am hesitant to say it was a planned terrorist attack, but as more evidence has come to light I am willing to concede that those who are calling it are terrorist attack have a point, something I posted in the other thread a couple of days ago:

The accusers don't need to wait for the evidence they already know..

[DarrinS]

This is obviously a case of vicarious traumatic stress disorder and I will continue to ignore mounting evidence that Hasan was motivated by his extremist Islamic beliefs.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I don't need to wait for all the facts to make a decision or accusation. I an teaching my kids to never wait until you have heard everything because it's much more fun to latch on to inuendo and partisan pundits

[DarrinS]

I'm still waiting for ANY evidence that suggests he was JUST crazy. If that information is brought forward, I will not ignore it (unlike you).

[boutons_deux]

McVeigh was a right-wing, anti-government terrorist, on the same continuum with Repugs and conservatives who spew hate and venom about all things governmental, with a grievance against government and bombed a govt building, and was not proven to be mentally ill or insane.

Hasan (for Whott, that name makes him a terrorist automatically, like Barack HUSSEIN Obama) we don't have all the info, yet, but it sure sounds like he was mentally unstable, socically isolated, a loner, and attacked by his Army colleagues for his religion and ethnicity, never mind his citizenship.

Hasan risks being handled by the Army as the FBI handled Stephen Hafill.

But I am impressed by the what I've heard about the Army admitting having serious doubts about Hasan, but not having the balls, like so many in the armed services and other professions like medical and legal, to handle a bad/criminal/incompetent performer in their ranks.

[DarkReign]

I'm still waiting for ANY evidence that suggests he was JUST crazy. If that information is brought forward, I will not ignore it (unlike you).

Lets say youre right and that he was motivated for religious reasons, you name the scenario.

What fucking difference does it make?

[George Gervin's Afro]

I'm still waiting for ANY evidence that suggests he was JUST crazy. If that information is brought forward, I will not ignore it (unlike you).

You may make deicisons beased on knowing 50% of the facts. I choose to wait to have 100% of the facts before I make my decision. That's the difference between you and me.

[ChumpDumper]

Lets say youre right and that he was motivated for religious reasons, you name the scenario.

What fucking difference does it make?Apparently they want Muhammed Ali to be cavity searched every time he goes to the airport.

[doobs]

Lets say youre right and that he was motivated for religious reasons, you name the scenario.

What fucking difference does it make?

It could represent a failure of our intelligence and surveillance capabilities. It could also represent a morale-boosting victory for jihadists around the world---one of their own managed to strike us on American soil . . . at a military base!

Knowing what motivated Hasan is important when trying to avoid another such incident in the future. This is all obvious, yes?

[hope4dopes]

Apparently they want Muhammed Ali to be cavity searched every time he goes to the airport. easy chimp...wait till they take the bait into their mouths.

[ChumpDumper]

It could represent a failure of our intelligence and surveillance capabilities. It could also represent a morale-boosting victory for jihadists around the world---one of their own managed to strike us on American soil . . . at a military base!So you want the jihadis to have a morale-boosting victory?

Strange.

[doobs]

So you want the jihadis to have a morale-boosting victory?

Strange.

What makes you think I WANT that?

Stupid.

[George Gervin's Afro]

It could represent a failure of our intelligence and surveillance capabilities. It could also represent a morale-boosting victory for jihadists around the world---one of their own managed to strike us on American soil . . . at a military base!

Knowing what motivated Hasan is important when trying to avoid another such incident in the future. This is all obvious, yes?

then why publicly acknowledge it's a terrorist attack? You said it yourself that it would present a morale booster victory fir jihadists around the world.so I asky, why?

[ChumpDumper]

easy chimp...wait till they take the bait into their mouths.Automatic screening for being a Muslim has been advocated on this board.

[doobs]

then why publicly acknowledge it's a terrorist attack? You said it yourself that it would present a morale booster victory fir jihadists around the world.so I asky, why?

Are you saying we should ignore reality? Forget that we live in a free society and such a thing is nearly impossible . . . isn't it better to face reality and try to prevent something like this happening again?

[ChumpDumper]

What makes you think I WANT that?Your wanting to label it a terrorist attack.


Stupid.I agree what you posted was stupid. You should think things through next time.

[doobs]

Your wanting to label it a terrorist attack.

I agree what you posted was stupid. You should think things through next time.

OK, you're a fucking idiot. I'm done with you.

[ChumpDumper]

OK, you're a fucking idiot. I'm done with you.Promises, promises.

[hope4dopes]

Automatic screening for being a Muslim has been advocated on this board. damnit .....keep a light hand on that spool.they'll break off you keep monkeying around like this.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Are you saying we should ignore reality? Forget that we live in a free society and such a thing is nearly impossible . . . isn't it better to face reality and try to prevent something like this happening again?

so granting the jihadists a morale victory is ok? Considering we don't know all of the facts surrounding the case? isn't that irresponsible?

[ChumpDumper]

damnit .....keep a light hand on that spool.they'll break off you keep monkeying around like this.Thanks for posting about me again.

[FromWayDowntown]

Are you saying we should ignore reality? Forget that we live in a free society and such a thing is nearly impossible . . . isn't it better to face reality and try to prevent something like this happening again?

Shouldn't we have tried to stop the dude in Cleveland, too? What difference does it make what his motivations were or where they came from?

I also don't get the urgency to call this a terrorist attack followed by the concern that it having been a successful terrorist attack will boost the morale of jihadists everywhere. They'll take from it what they want. But we certainly would add fuel to their fire by calling what might well have been the equivalent of the Columbine shooters a successful terrorist attack.

Ultimately, I don't get what happens next if this was a terrorist attack as opposed to a mass murder. Again, are we going to rid the military of Muslims? Invade Killeen? Intern all Muslims? Nuke Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran? Promote greater suspicion of all Muslims in general?

Someone please explain it to me: what are the consequences for the nation going forward if this is characterized as a terror attack as opposed to a mass murder?

[hope4dopes]

Thanks for posting about me again.
no worries mate...what ya got in the old bait can today.Did you bring sun screen?

[ChumpDumper]

no worries mate...what ya got in the old bait can today.Did you bring sun screen?Thanks for posting about me again.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Someone please explain it to me: what are the consequences for the nation going forward if this is characterized as a terror attack as opposed to a mass murder?

some people will sleep better at night I suppose

[angel_luv]

What was McVeigh's last meal? The DC Sniper had Chicken and Red Sauce.

Two pints of ice cream, if memory serves.

[angel_luv]

I was right.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

His last meal was two pints of mint chocolate chip ice cream.

[DarrinS]

Shouldn't we have tried to stop the dude in Cleveland, too? What difference does it make what his motivations were or where they came from?

I also don't get the urgency to call this a terrorist attack followed by the concern that it having been a successful terrorist attack will boost the morale of jihadists everywhere. They'll take from it what they want. But we certainly would add fuel to their fire by calling what might well have been the equivalent of the Columbine shooters a successful terrorist attack.

Ultimately, I don't get what happens next if this was a terrorist attack as opposed to a mass murder. Again, are we going to rid the military of Muslims? Invade Killeen? Intern all Muslims? Nuke Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran? Promote greater suspicion of all Muslims in general?

Someone please explain it to me: what are the consequences for the nation going forward if this is characterized as a terror attack as opposed to a mass murder?



It's not about labeling this particular event. It's about the RELUCTANCE to investigate muslims engaged in suspicious activity because those investigating may appear to be racially insensitive.

[FromWayDowntown]

It's not about labeling this particular event. It's about the RELUCTANCE to investigate muslims engaged in suspicious activity because those investigating may appear to be racially insensitive.

I don't think there's a concern about investigating. I think there's a concern -- an understandable one, at that -- to rush to conclusions based on assumptions rather than investigation.

I have yet to see anything to suggest that investigation into the Fort Hood shooter was somehow belayed by the fact that he was a Muslim. Instead, from what I understand, there was some investigation into curious writings, despite the fact that he is a Muslim, and that investigation concluded that the writing were consistent with his job and the performance of that job, and not with an intent to commit terrorism.

And ultimately, are you suggesting that Muslims should be under heightened scrutiny compared to others in our society simply because of their religious beliefs? If so, I must have missed the reports that McVeigh, the Unibomber, and the Columbine shooters (terrorists, all) were Muslims.

I'd agree that we should be investigating, to the extent possible and constitutional, suspicious people who engage in suspicious behavior. I don't think that investigatory concern should somehow be more readily pointed at Muslims than anyone else. That's not political correctness; it's fact-based practicality, I think.

[hope4dopes]

It's not about labeling this particular event. It's about the RELUCTANCE to investigate muslims engaged in suspicious activity because those investigating may appear to be racially insensitive. Yes well that's all very good........ but No I refuse to look at that, it can't be,NO there is some other explanation...there must be ....No you're wrong ......doooooonnnnn't make me look. wether or not he is or a terrorist is not the point to even contemplate such things are VERBOTEN, to whisper them is a hate crime to, to ponder them is to risk your mortal soul from being cast into the eternal damnation of POLITICALLY CORRECT lakes of fire.:lmao

[ChumpDumper]

It's not about labeling this particular event. It's about the RELUCTANCE to investigate muslims engaged in suspicious activity because those investigating may appear to be racially insensitive.So this is the conclusion to which you have jumped. We understand.

[DarkReign]

It could represent a failure of our intelligence and surveillance capabilities. It could also represent a morale-boosting victory for jihadists around the world---one of their own managed to strike us on American soil . . . at a military base!

Knowing what motivated Hasan is important when trying to avoid another such incident in the future. This is all obvious, yes?

Seriously, that isnt a good enough reason for me. If Fuqwad Ali Muhommed in bum-fuck Tazburkistan gets his jollies from violence in other countries, then he has no shortage of "porn" to mentally masturbate to.

Every time a Muslim does something illegal, it isnt terrorism, even if its religiously motivated. Are we going to start guessing the Moral Victory Meter of fundamentalist Christians whenever some nutjob whacks an abortion clinic?

Do you see the absurdity in this? Exactly whose thumb is being licked and placed into the wind to gauge such an important aspect of all violent crime in our country?

Absurd, one way or the other, its all absurd. Guy flipped out, political, religious or otherwise. He killed people. He did it alone and without any logistical support. I dont care if you eventually find him singing OBL praises, it doesnt make what he did terrorism. Or should I say, it shouldnt.

Loathe be the day when terrorism starts getting easier and easier to recognize and categorize. By then, we'll all be terrorists as the meaning expands to include those who dissent vehemently with established government.

[boutons_deux]

I'm pretty sure the "politically correct" angle was the Army not having the balls to terminate ANY of their medical doctors, esp a Major, for incompetence or mental illness, rather than because he Muslim.

The xenophobe racists here never fail to jerk their knees in unison.

[DarrinS]

I have yet to see anything to suggest that investigation into the Fort Hood shooter was somehow belayed by the fact that he was a Muslim.

Then you aren't looking very hard.

[DarrinS]

I'm pretty sure the "politically correct" angle was the Army not having the balls to terminate ANY of their with medical doctors, esp a Major, for incompetence or mental illness, rather than because he Muslim.

The xenophobe racists here never fail to jerk their knees in unison.



How boutons_deux prepares for a post on the political forum.

YersIyzsOpc

[FromWayDowntown]

Then you aren't looking very hard.

Concern about an investigation violating his Constitutional rights (both to free speech and free exercise) is the same as a concern for targeting him for being Muslim?

Are Muslims not entitled to Constitutional protections?

[hope4dopes]

How boutons_deux prepares for a post on the political forum.

YersIyzsOpc:lmao:lmao:lmao
where's the part where he bites the head off the chihuahua.

[hope4dopes]

Seriously, that isnt a good enough reason for me. If Fuqwad Ali Muhommed in bum-fuck Tazburkistan gets his jollies from violence in other countries, then he has no shortage of "porn" to mentally masturbate to.

Every time a Muslim does something illegal, it isnt terrorism, even if its religiously motivated. Are we going to start guessing the Moral Victory Meter of fundamentalist Christians whenever some nutjob whacks an abortion clinic?

Do you see the absurdity in this? Exactly whose thumb is being licked and placed into the wind to gauge such an important aspect of all violent crime in our country?

Absurd, one way or the other, its all absurd. Guy flipped out, political, religious or otherwise. He killed people. He did it alone and without any logistical support. I dont care if you eventually find him singing OBL praises, it doesnt make what he did terrorism. Or should I say, it shouldnt.

Loathe be the day when terrorism starts getting easier and easier to recognize and categorize. By then, we'll all be terrorists as the meaning expands to include those who dissent vehemently with established government. So what then makes Mc Viegh a terrorist.

[hope4dopes]

Home Blog Contact Documents Koran Polls Support
English Français Deutsch Italiana Nederlands Svenska Türkçe Бългapcки Pyccкий Toчикй Укpaї́нcькa עברית فارسی عربي
OUR GOALS

to educate Muslims about dangers presented by Islamic religious texts and why Islam must be reformed
to educate non-Muslims about the differences between moderate Muslims and Islamists (a.k.a. Islamic Religious Fanatics, Radical Muslims, Muslim Fundamentalists, Islamic Extremists or Islamofascists)
to educate both Muslims and non-Muslims alike that Moderate Muslims are also targets of Islamic Terror


OUR MANIFESTO

Acknowledging mistakes
The majority of the terrorist acts of the last three decades, including the 9/11 attacks, were perpetrated by Islamic fundamentalists in the name of Islam. We, as Muslims, find it abhorrent that Islam is used to murder millions of innocent people, Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

Inconsistencies in the Koran
Unfortunately, Islamic religious texts, including the Koran and the Hadith contain many passages, which call for Islamic domination and incite violence against non-Muslims. It is time to change that. Muslim fundamentalists believe that the Koran is the literal word of Allah. But could Allah, the most Merciful, the most Compassionate, command mass slaughter of people whose only fault is being non-Muslim?

The Koran & the Bible
Many Bible figures from Adam to Jesus (Isa) are considered to be prophets and are respected by Islam. Islamic scholars however believe that both the Old and the New Testament came from God, but that they were corrupted by the Jews and Christians over time. Could it be possible that the Koran itself was corrupted by Muslims over the last thirteen centuries?

The need for reform
Islam, in its present form, is not compatible with principles of freedom and democracy. Twenty-first century Muslims have two options: we can continue the barbaric policies of the seventh century perpetuated by Hassan al-Banna, Abdullah Azzam, Yassir Arafat, Ruhollah Khomeini, Osama bin Laden, Muslim Brotherhood, al-Qaeda, Hizballah, Hamas, Hizb-ut-Tahrir, etc., leading to a global war between Dar al-Islam (Islamic World) and Dar al-Harb (non-Islamic World), or we can reform Islam to keep our rich cultural heritage and to cleanse our religion from the reviled relics of the past. We, as Muslims who desire to live in harmony with people of other religions, agnostics, and atheists choose the latter option. We can no longer allow Islamic extremists to use our religion as a weapon. We must protect future generations of Muslims from being brainwashed by the Islamic radicals. If we do not stop the spread of Islamic fundamentalism, our children will become homicidal zombies.

Accepting responsibilities
To start the healing process, we must acknowledge evils done by Muslims in the name of Islam and accept responsibility for those evils. We must remove evil passages from Islamic religious texts, so that future generations of Muslims will not be confused by conflicting messages. Our religious message should be loud and clear: Islam is peace; Islam is love; Islam is light. War, murder, violence, divisiveness & discrimination are not Islamic values.

Religious privacy
Religion is the private matter of every individual. Any person should be able to freely practice any religion as long as the practice does not interfere with the local laws, and no person must be forced to practice any religion. Just as people are created equal, there is no one religion that is superior to another. Any set of beliefs that is spread by force is fundamentally immoral; it is no longer a religion, but a political ideology.

Equality
Islam is one of the many of the world's religions. There will be no Peace and Harmony in the World if Muslims and non-Muslims do not have equal rights. Islamic supremacy doctrine is just as repulsive as Aryan supremacy doctrine. History clearly shows what happens to the society whose members consider themselves above other peoples. All moderate Muslims must repudiate the mere notion of Islamic supremacy.

Sharia
Sharia Law must be abolished, because it is incompatible with norms of modern society.

Outdated practices
Any practices that might have been acceptable in the Seventh Century; i.e., stoning, cutting off body parts, marrying and/or having sex with children or animals, must be condemned by every Muslim.

Outdated verses
The following verses promote divisiveness and religious hatred, bigotry and discrimination. They must be either removed from the Koran or declared outdated and invalid, and marked as such.

Outdated words & phrases
Use of the following words and phrases or their variations must be prohibited during religious services:
• Infidel / Unbeliever: these terms have negative connotation and promote divisiveness and animosity; Islam is not the only religion
• Jihad: this word is often interpreted as Holy War against non-Muslims
• Mujaheed / Holy Warrior: no more wars in the name of Islam
• American (Christian / Crusader / Israeli / Zionist) occupation: these terms promote bigotry; at this point in time, Muslims living in non-Muslim lands have more freedoms than Muslims living in Muslim lands

Islam vs. violence
Islam has no place for violence. Any person calling for an act of violence in the name of Islam must be promptly excommunicated. Any grievances must be addressed by lawful authorities. It is the religious and civic duty of every Muslim to unconditionally condemn any act of terrorism perpetrated in the name of Islam. Any Muslim group that has ties to terrorism in any way, shape, or form, must be universally condemned by both religious and secular Muslims.

Portrayal of Prophets
While portrayal of Prophets is not an acceptable practice in Islam could be personally offensive to some Muslims, other religions do not have such restrictions. Therefore, the portrayal of the Prophets must be treated as a manifestation of free expression.

The Crusades vs. The Inquisition
While the Inquisition was a repulsive practice by Christian Fundamentalists, the Crusades were not unprovoked acts of aggression, but rather attempts to recapture formerly Christian lands controlled by Muslims.


Brothers and Sisters!
Do not make the next generation of Muslims clean up your mess!
Fight Islamic Fascism now, so your children won't have to!


If only the radical chic made as much sense, as these MUSLIMS

[jacobdrj]

The sad thing is that both incidents are related: Timmy McV's actions broke the ice on terrorism on US soil. McV's name should be spat upon for all time for the trouble he ultimately caused, beyond the lives he took with his own hands.

[sabar]

Shootings are very rarely considered terrorism for multiple reasons. Terrorism requires a political agenda, a goal of inflicting fear on a national scale, and mass killing. Shootings very rarely capture these points. The U.S. gov't definition of terrorism replaces mass killing with mass destruction/kidnapping, pretty much ruling out all gun violence. This leaves the obvious things -- bombs and hijackings.

A man with a gun isn't an effective way to kill either scores or people or cause widespread fear. For one, the man is easily subdued during the attack. It is defensible. A bomb or hijacking isn't. Secondly, gun violence is common and people aren't driven by it other than on the local level. Gun violence can't hold a government ransom. Bombing million dollar structures can.

It takes a lot for shootings to be considered terrorism. Shooting up an airport, school, or court house is much more likely to be terrorism than shooting your co-workers.

I'm not sure why there is so much surprise over this. Even shootings that cause mass terror usually aren't referred to as terrorist attacks. Anyone born before 2000 should realize what is considered terrorism and what is considered a rampage shooting.

It honestly doesn't even matter unless you are the prosecution and looking for a death sentence.

[DarkReign]

I was in the midst of typing a response without having read ahead in the thread.

I cant top that.

[DarkReign]

@ hope4

What obscure, Western blog is that from?

[DarrinS]

Shootings are very rarely considered terrorism for multiple reasons. Terrorism requires a political agenda, a goal of inflicting fear on a national scale, and mass killing. Shootings very rarely capture these points. The U.S. gov't definition of terrorism replaces mass killing with mass destruction/kidnapping, pretty much ruling out all gun violence. This leaves the obvious things -- bombs and hijackings.

A man with a gun isn't an effective way to kill either scores or people or cause widespread fear. For one, the man is easily subdued during the attack. It is defensible. A bomb or hijacking isn't. Secondly, gun violence is common and people aren't driven by it other than on the local level. Gun violence can't hold a government ransom. Bombing million dollar structures can.

It takes a lot for shootings to be considered terrorism. Shooting up an airport, school, or court house is much more likely to be terrorism than shooting your co-workers.

I'm not sure why there is so much surprise over this. Even shootings that cause mass terror usually aren't referred to as terrorist attacks. Anyone born before 2000 should realize what is considered terrorism and what is considered a rampage shooting.

It honestly doesn't even matter unless you are the prosecution and looking for a death sentence.


I think you make a lot of good points. Was this an act of terrorism, since it was only one person and he used a firearm and may not have had a political agenda? Maybe not. Was this an act of a jihadist? Was the act not so much to send a political message, but rather to kill as many of his "enemies" as possible? All evidence currently available about this man paints a picture of a jihadist, and not someone suffering from pre-TSD.

* His very vocal view that the wars in Iraq/Afghanistan were wars against Islam.

* His 50-page PowerPoint presentation, "The Koranic World View as it Relates to Muslims in the US Military" when he was supposed to present a medical topic.

* His repeated emails to a radical imam said to have been a "spiritual adviser" to two of the September 11 hijackers

* Give away many of his possessions and may have sent money to Pakistan

* Yelled "Allahu Akbar" before opening fire


The dude sent out many VERY OVERT red flags that shouldn't have been ignored.



What is the evidence that suggests he just suffered from pre-TSD?

[Nbadan]

What is the evidence that suggests he just suffered from pre-TSD

:rolleyes

He shot up a bunch of people with a gun....what other evidence do you need?

[Nbadan]

It takes a lot for shootings to be considered terrorism. Shooting up an airport, school, or court house is much more likely to be terrorism than shooting your co-workers.

True. There is also the possibility that PTSD caused him to have thoughts about martyrdom in something he really believed in....if he were a really devote Christian and shot up a military barrack would he be a terrorists?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

If only we had this many warning signs for McViegh that we've had for Hasan. OKC would not have happened. Period.

[DarrinS]

If only we had this many warning signs for McViegh that we've had for Hasan. OKC would not have happened. Period.


Yep. WHen some anti-govt loon buys a very large amount of fertilizer, it's time to pay attention.

[Supergirl]

Terrorism is a planned attack designed to instill fear and terror in its victims hearts and minds. the OKC bombings, the WTC bombings, and all the suicide bombings which have occurred in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Israel, Madrid, London, etc...were all planned by groups attempting to force a political goal by causing people to be afraid of the consequences if they don't.

It isn't yet clear that the Hasan attack was terrorism, because it isn't clear whether it was premeditated or whether he was "under stress" (though this obviously seems to be an gross understatement) and opened fire. But as more information comes out, it may turn out that it was, in fact, a premeditated terrorist act.

[Supergirl]

I think you make a lot of good points. Was this an act of terrorism, since it was only one person and he used a firearm and may not have had a political agenda? Maybe not. Was this an act of a jihadist? Was the act not so much to send a political message, but rather to kill as many of his "enemies" as possible? All evidence currently available about this man paints a picture of a jihadist, and not someone suffering from pre-TSD.

* His very vocal view that the wars in Iraq/Afghanistan were wars against Islam.

* His 50-page PowerPoint presentation, "The Koranic World View as it Relates to Muslims in the US Military" when he was supposed to present a medical topic.

* His repeated emails to a radical imam said to have been a "spiritual adviser" to two of the September 11 hijackers

* Give away many of his possessions and may have sent money to Pakistan

* Yelled "Allahu Akbar" before opening fire


The dude sent out many VERY OVERT red flags that shouldn't have been ignored.



What is the evidence that suggests he just suffered from pre-TSD?

overt red signs that he was potentially a danger to others, but not necessarily a terrorist.

plenty of people are danger to others but not terrorists.

[Ignignokt]

Terrorism is a planned attack designed to instill fear and terror in its victims hearts and minds. the OKC bombings, the WTC bombings, and all the suicide bombings which have occurred in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Israel, Madrid, London, etc...were all planned by groups attempting to force a political goal by causing people to be afraid of the consequences if they don't.

It isn't yet clear that the Hasan attack was terrorism, because it isn't clear whether it was premeditated or whether he was "under stress" (though this obviously seems to be an gross understatement) and opened fire. But as more information comes out, it may turn out that it was, in fact, a premeditated terrorist act.

So if you're stressed out, you can't be a terrorist?

[SpurNation]

None. Both cold blooded killers.

[hope4dopes]

None. Both cold blooded killers. I agree, but why do we call one a terrorist and not the other.what is it about one we label part of a terrorist movement but the other one a victim of stress.

[DarrinS]

overt red signs that he was potentially a danger to others, but not necessarily a terrorist.

plenty of people are danger to others but not terrorists.


Might he be a jihadist? Is your keyboard capable of spelling out muslim or jihadist?

[Winehole23]

Might he be a jihadist?So what if he is? Why is that so important to you?

[hope4dopes]

So what if he is? Why is that so important to you? So what makes Mc viegh a terrorist and not Hasan?

[Supergirl]

Might he be a jihadist? Is your keyboard capable of spelling out muslim or jihadist?

He was a Muslim, that's something we already know. Not sure what you mean by calling him a "jihadist" - a jihad is a concept in Islam but a concept which is distorted and overblown by both Muslim extremists and right wing nutbags obsessed with the war on Islam Bush declared.

It seems fairly clear that Hasan was mentally unbalanced, and drawn to a lot of the words and ideas of Muslim extremists. But that doesn't mean he was working with them, in fact I thought I saw something in one story about him being rejected by a Muslim extremist group.

Again, let's be clear, the only useful way to have a term like "terrorism" is to use it when it is appropriate and not whenever we find someone abhorrent and violent.

Hasan may or may not be a terrorist. He was certainly mentally unbalanced, violent, and creepy. And there were ample signs that someone should have been paying closer attention to him and not allowing him to be around weapons.

[spursncowboys]

Terrorism is a planned attack designed to instill fear and terror in its victims hearts and minds. the OKC bombings, the WTC bombings, and all the suicide bombings which have occurred in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Israel, Madrid, London, etc...were all planned by groups attempting to force a political goal by causing people to be afraid of the consequences if they don't.

It isn't yet clear that the Hasan attack was terrorism, because it isn't clear whether it was premeditated or whether he was "under stress" (though this obviously seems to be an gross understatement) and opened fire. But as more information comes out, it may turn out that it was, in fact, a premeditated terrorist act.
Him taking the guns with armor piercing rounds, and giving his things away. Saying his goodbyes are all ways that he planned for this.
Can we stop calling it pre-tsd. There is no such thing. Just because someone gets stressed or is nuts doesn't mean they have ptsd of anykind. it lowers it for real people who went through real stressful situations and having real ptsd and not some liberal concoction.

[Supergirl]

Him taking the guns with armor piercing rounds, and giving his things away. Saying his goodbyes are all ways that he planned for this.
Can we stop calling it pre-tsd. There is no such thing. Just because someone gets stressed or is nuts doesn't mean they have ptsd of anykind. it lowers it for real people who went through real stressful situations and having real ptsd and not some liberal concoction.

I don't know what this "pre-tsd" thing people are referring to is. You are correct, there is no such diagnosis in the DSM-IV. Although there is a Acute Stress Disorder plenty of people can meet the criteria for this and most of them don't go around shooting people.

Stockpiling weapons and giving his things away are certainly concerning red flags, but not indicative of being a terrorist. They are indicative of someone who was planning to become violent and/or suicidal. But again, plenty of people have become violent and/or suicidal without being terrorists.

[EmptyMan]

This thread is giving me Pre-ED.

[DarrinS]

I don't know what this "pre-tsd" thing people are referring to is. You are correct, there is no such diagnosis in the DSM-IV. Although there is a Acute Stress Disorder plenty of people can meet the criteria for this and most of them don't go around shooting people.

Stockpiling weapons and giving his things away are certainly concerning red flags, but not indicative of being a terrorist. They are indicative of someone who was planning to become violent and/or suicidal. But again, plenty of people have become violent and/or suicidal without being terrorists.


He probably just had a bad day and it is pure coincidence that he's muslim and tried to contact a radical imam on numerous occasions.

From now on, any pro-lifer that kills an abortion doctor is just someone who's stressed out.

Peace.

[Ignignokt]

I don't know what this "pre-tsd" thing people are referring to is. You are correct, there is no such diagnosis in the DSM-IV. Although there is a Acute Stress Disorder plenty of people can meet the criteria for this and most of them don't go around shooting people.

Stockpiling weapons and giving his things away are certainly concerning red flags, but not indicative of being a terrorist. They are indicative of someone who was planning to become violent and/or suicidal. But again, plenty of people have become violent and/or suicidal without being terrorists.

So if you're stressed out, you can't be a terrorist?

[Supergirl]

FYI: Here's how the US government defines terrorism:

"the term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents." http://terrorism.about.com/od/whatisterroris1/ss/DefineTerrorism_5.htm