Start Hill-Parker Backcourt

[Kori Ellis]

I get it -- they are short. But GH is long, so I don't care he's a couple inches too short. Against most teams, this backcourt would work. They play well together and it gives the Spurs more versatility offensively (plus GH's D would be good to start the game).

Also TP needs to feed RJ early in the game. RJ obviously can't work his way into the offense and needs to have the ball more from the get-go. Tony can distribute early and score late. He'll still get his.

[Kori Ellis]

Bring a top 3 PG in the league off the bench? Bad idea.

Huh?

I just said START Parker and Hill.

[kbrury]

Bring a top 3 PG in the league off the bench? Bad idea.
:lol fail

[MannyIsGod]

The biggest issue right now is figuring out a way to prioritize RJ's offense more than it has been in games with Tony and Tim. He's too good at drawing fouls and driving the lane to make him the fourth option to start the game.

I'm not sure if I like the idea of Hill starting because I think he actually works better with Manu than he does with Tony. The problem is that on nights when Manu struggles like tonight then the chemistry isn't there but when Manu is off they're going to have problems either way.

Plus, I honestly hate seeing RMJ run the point. I don't think he's very good at it at all.

[Kori Ellis]

The biggest issue right now is figuring out a way to prioritize RJ's offense more than it has been in games with Tony and Tim. He's too good at drawing fouls and driving the lane to make him the fourth option to start the game.

I'm not sure if I like the idea of Hill starting because I think he actually works better with Manu than he does with Tony. The problem is that on nights when Manu struggles like tonight then the chemistry isn't there but when Manu is off they're going to have problems either way.

Plus, I honestly hate seeing RMJ run the point. I don't think he's very good at it at all.

Hill actually works awesome with Tony or Manu.

Oh and RMJ should barely play. He won't be the backup PG. Just pull Hill at the 6 min mark when Manu comes in and then bring him back at the start of the second quarter when Tony goes out.

[MaNu4Tres]

Also TP needs to feed RJ early in the game. RJ obviously can't work his way into the offense and needs to have the ball more from the get-go. Tony can distribute early and score late. He'll still get his.

This

Plus 1000

[urunobili]

how about no? Bogans in the starting lineup makes more sense...

[Brazil]

Also TP needs to feed RJ early in the game. RJ obviously can't work his way into the offense and needs to have the ball more from the get-go. Tony can distribute early and score late. He'll still get his.

Tp faced the same situation with the French NT the coach asked him to start slowly to get the guys involved early and then to make his scoring effort on the second half. I think TP did that quite well during the euro, but the risk is to have a passive tony. It's not going to be an easy scenario.

TP Tim Manu and Pop need to adapt quickly to the new spurs.

[Quiet Strength]

I dont see why so many people want parker starting. Yeah he has been great but his defense is hurting the spurs imo. Hill on the other hand is playing great defense and brings the energy to the team every night. Why not try having parker come off the bench? Maybe it could be as good as when pop first started bringing manu off the bench.

[Kori Ellis]

how about no? Bogans in the starting lineup makes more sense...

Bogans has had a couple good games but he's honestly not as good as he's played. I don't think he's starter material long term.

[Kori Ellis]

I dont see why so many people want parker starting. Yeah he has been great but his defense is hurting the spurs imo. Hill on the other hand is playing great defense and brings the energy to the team every night. Why not try having parker come off the bench? Maybe it could be as good as when pop first started bringing manu off the bench.

:lol

[kbrury]

Also TP needs to feed RJ early in the game. RJ obviously can't work his way into the offense and needs to have the ball more from the get-go. Tony can distribute early and score late. He'll still get his.

I agree they need to force the ball into RJ, it probably would never happen but I thought about bringing RJ off the bench so he can get more touches. That being said I don't want finley starting.

[celldweller]

Hill actually works awesome with Tony or Manu.

Oh and RMJ should barely play. He won't be the backup PG. Just pull Hill at the 6 min mark when Manu comes in and then bring him back at the start of the second quarter when Tony goes out.

I agree on all counts. Hill played Durant solid.

So Pop likes the Parker & Hill Combo on the floor together? (see post game video) I Like it to. Hill's a good defender (looks better than Bogans IMHO), did a great, great job on Durant. I agree our eventual starting line up should be:

PF Duncan

SF Jefferson

C McDyess

SG Hill

PG Parker

With Hill taking over Point when Parker goes out (He's young and can play heavy minutes)

Finley & Mason are great guys but need to step aside for our youth movement; Hairston, Haislip, Mahinmi (why not? If not then trade him!)
Mason is young but tends to play defense like an old, old vet.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't believe Bogans is starting material in the long run either. I'm still waiting for the real Bogans to show his head but I'm also hoping he proves us all wrong.

[timvp]

Not a bad idea. I'd give Bogans a few more opportunities but if his offense bogs down the starting unit, this is something Pop could try.

Hill's defense against Durant was very good tonight. If he turns out to be the best perimeter defender against superstar swingmen, Pop might not have a choice but to do this.

[td4mvp21]

I like this idea a lot :tu

[chasky]

I'm not sure if I like the idea of Hill starting because I think he actually works better with Manu than he does with Tony. The problem is that on nights when Manu struggles like tonight then the chemistry isn't there but when Manu is off they're going to have problems either way.

All the players in the roster Works Better with Manu!!

[kbrury]

Some posts in here remind me of the thread where Tjastal claimed that Hill was almost better then Parker offensively.

[Leetonidas]

I dont see why so many people want parker starting. Yeah he has been great but his defense is hurting the spurs imo. Hill on the other hand is playing great defense and brings the energy to the team every night. Why not try having parker come off the bench? Maybe it could be as good as when pop first started bringing manu off the bench.

The Spurs will sign D-Rob out of retirement before they assign Parker to the bench in a Ginobil role.

[Quiet Strength]

:lol

I dont see why that is so funny. Hill started the last 2 games the spurs got two very good wins.. Parker comes back and the spurs lose. I love parker as a player but right now its about winning and who is playing better all around.

[timvp]

I dont see why that is so funny. Hill started the last 2 games the spurs got two very good wins.. Parker comes back and the spurs lose. I love parker as a player but right now its about winning and who is playing better all around.

Good idea. Bench Duncan and start Bonner while you're at it.

[kbrury]

I dont see why that is so funny. Hill started the last 2 games the spurs got two very good wins.. Parker comes back and the spurs lose. I love parker as a player but right now its about winning and who is playing better all around.

oh god

[HarlemHeat37]

Not a bad idea. I'd give Bogans a few more opportunities but if his offense bogs down the starting unit, this is something Pop could try.

Hill's defense against Durant was very good tonight. If he turns out to be the best perimeter defender against superstar swingmen, Pop might not have a choice but to do this.

I know you think Hairston should get a look, timvp..

[BWS-1994]

As long as Hill still has enough to relieve Parker...

[Cant_Be_Faded]

George's work on Durant was incredible. Remember when Pop threw him at Kobe last season?

Sure Kobe owned the crap outta him....but Pop is really starting to get a grasp on what he can get out of Hill's defense. Even though he's in year 2, he is still the most pleasant surprise of this season thus far.

[Warlord23]

This might be a good short-term solution to get us some more wins but IMO it would be evading the central problem than solving it.

The problem is how will a 5-man unit with multiple offensive weapons mesh together. Whatever we do now, later in the season we are (hopefully) going to finish games with the 5-man unit of TD/Dice/RJ/Manu/TP. These guys need to understand how to keep everyone involved.

The last decade or so, the Spurs' rotation had at most 3 offensive weapons to share among. So you had at least 2 players camping out beyond the arc waiting for some open looks. And Pop's offensive playbook with his crunch-time unit was relatively simple: TD in the post, or Manu/TD high pick-n-roll or TP breaking down the D.

That was fine as long as we had Bowen and Horry standing still waiting for the pass. This year's team has different personnel. What we lost in 3-point shooting, we have gained in other areas (RJ attacking the basket, Dice and his mid-range game). Pop needs to diversify his playbook ASAP.

[thispego]

parker will realize, eventually, that he doesnt have to do all the scoring anymore

[kbrury]

I know you think Hairston should get a look, timvp..

+1

Need to see what the youngsters can do. Even give Haislip some burn Ratliff didn't play tonight, see what he can do maybe he will play better then he did in preseason.

[Quiet Strength]

Good idea. Bench Duncan and start Bonner while you're at it.

It's not like parker is the best player ever. Its not all about parker.. its about team basketball. The spurs played better as a team with hill starting at pg. Btw screw bonner he shouldn't even get playing time

[Kori Ellis]

I believe Pop will probably try it within the next five games. I think it will actually work as the long term starting lineup, but we'll see.

[MaNu4Tres]

Pop feeling obligated on giving Finley and Mason PT out of respect will hurt this team more than help in the long run.


Pop may be a great X's and O's coach, perhaps the best in the NBA.

But his respect and loyalty with some players runs on fumes sometimes.


I'm hoping Spurs are offered a can't say no deal for their expiring contracts, so this team can actually reach it's full potential.

[ElNono]

I would start our best players like every other NBA team. Then manage the rotation as things develop.

And to be honest, I don't know if Tony is out of shape or just not interested in playing D, but Pop needs to find out soon

[kbrury]

It's not like parker is the best player ever. Its not all about parker.. its about team basketball. The spurs played better as a team with hill starting at pg. Btw screw bonner he shouldn't even get playing time

wow

[Kori Ellis]

Pop feeling obligated on giving Finley and Mason PT out of respect will hurt this team more than help in the long run.


I don't think he feels obligated to them. He's been more than kind to Finley over the years, since Fin is a Duncan-Popovich favorite. And RMJ just hasn't done much to prove that he's worthy of beating anyone out for minutes. My opinion is that RMJ will be gone by the trade deadline.

[kbrury]

It's not like parker is the best player ever. Its not all about parker.. its about team basketball. The spurs played better as a team with hill starting at pg. Btw screw bonner he shouldn't even get playing time

With your logic the team played better without Duncan should we sit him also because its about team basketball its not all about Duncan.

[thispego]

Pop feeling obligated on giving Finley and Mason PT out of respect will hurt this team more than help in the long run.


Pop may be a great X's and O's coach, perhaps the best in the NBA.

But his respect and loyalty with some players runs on fumes sometimes.


I'm hoping Spurs are offered a can't say no deal for their expiring contracts, so this team can actually reach it's full potential.

out of respect :rolleyes

you dont know shit about basketball :td

[Libri]

Even though I like what Bogans has been doing defensively, I think Pop would rather have somebody who is much more dynamic like Hill, who is able to defend and score.

[MaNu4Tres]

And RMJ just hasn't done much to prove that he's worthy of beating anyone out for minutes. My opinion is that RMJ will be gone by the trade deadline.

Saw this day coming months ago. I hope he is packaged to bring in a solid wing behind Jefferson/ Manu or a solid legit big man next to start with Tim.

[Quiet Strength]

With your logic the team played better without Duncan should we sit him also because its about team basketball its not all about Duncan.

Only if duncan isn't playing healthy. When duncan is healthy the spurs play better with him. Duncan usually works hard on defense and tries to get the team involved on offense.. parker on the other hand has been very weak on defense and usually doesn't get the team involved on offense.

[MaNu4Tres]

out of respect :rolleyes

you dont know shit about basketball :td

I know I'm learning.

[kbrury]

Only if duncan isn't playing healthy. When duncan is healthy the spurs play better with him. Duncan usually works hard on defense and tries to get the team involved.. parker on the other hand has been very weak on defense and usually doesn't get the team involved.

Duncan looked pretty good tonight, and while parker is a scoring PG hes a much better distributor then Hill even when he's rusty. Offense would go pretty stagnant I believe if Hill became the primary ball handler for long streches.

[thispego]

I know I'm learning.

no sweat, you're better than alot of others

[JustinJDW]

Am I the only guy who liked it when Roger Mason started? I wish he started knocking down his 3's again.

:depressed

[MaNu4Tres]

no sweat, you're better than alot of others

So since Parker dribbles the ball up the court does that make him a forward?

Since he is moving forward towards his teammates?

[MaNu4Tres]

Am I the only guy who liked it when Roger Mason started? I wish he started knocking down his 3's again.

:depressed

Maybe we should bring back Steve Smith and Steve Kerr too and start them since they can still hit the 3 at a high percentage.

Who cares about defense anyway right?

[thispego]

So since Parker dribbles the ball up the court does that make him a forward?

Since he is moving forward towards his teammates?

is this a joke?

[Quiet Strength]

Duncan looked pretty good tonight, and while parker is a scoring PG hes a much better distributor then Hill even when he's rusty. Offense would go pretty stagnant I believe if Hill became the primary ball handler for long streches.


Parkers main problem is that he holds on to the ball way too long and when he does that, nothing good comes out of it. He either ends up taking a bad shot of he sets somebody up for a bad shot. The main reason I want hill to start is because of his defense. With his energy on defense the rest of the team feeds off of it and obviously the spurs really need stronger defense if they have any shot at winning a championship.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

It's an interesting idea.

Another way to go would be to start Manu and make RJ the 6th man in the Manu role, which would lead to plenty of opportunities for him.

Fucked if I know what to do except FREE DICE! That man needs to start.

[kbrury]

Parkers main problem is that he holds on to the ball way too long and when he does that, nothing good comes out of it. He either ends up taking a bad shot of he sets somebody up for a bad shot. The main reason I want hill to start is because of his defense. With his energy on defense the rest of the team feeds off of it and obviously the spurs really need stronger defense if they have any shot at winning a championship.

So do you believe in Hill's playmaking and PG abilities rather then Parker's.

[SpurNation]

Only if duncan isn't playing healthy. When duncan is healthy the spurs play better with him. Duncan usually works hard on defense and tries to get the team involved on offense.. parker on the other hand has been very weak on defense and usually doesn't get the team involved on offense.

Parker does need to do a better job of getting others involved. But it doesn't mean he doesn't start. Parker has been asked over the past 2 years to do what he is doing now. Score.

The offense's plan needs to change in order to make that happen. Parker driving the lane without a cutter to distribute to is what stagnates the whole thing most of the time he can't score off of penetration.

This of course would mean a player or two actually having to move off the ball in order to make that happen as well. As it stands now...Parker penetrates and everybody waits.

[kbrury]

Parker does need to do a better job of getting others involved. But it doesn't mean he doesn't start. Parker has been asked over the past 2 years to do what he is doing now. Score.

The offense's plan needs to change in order to make that happen. Parker driving the lane without a cutter to distribute to is what stagnates the whole thing most of the time he can't score off of penetration.

This of course would mean a player or two actually having to move off the ball in order to make that happen as well. As it stands now...Parker penetrates and everybody waits.

this and as others have said need to get RJ go to his traditonal style of moving without the ball instead of Pops usual SF of spot up shooting.

[spursfan09]

I get it -- they are short. But GH is long, so I don't care he's a couple inches too short. Against most teams, this backcourt would work. They play well together and it gives the Spurs more versatility offensively (plus GH's D would be good to start the game).

Also TP needs to feed RJ early in the game. RJ obviously can't work his way into the offense and needs to have the ball more from the get-go. Tony can distribute early and score late. He'll still get his.

This is how I feel. You would think the our actual Coach would think the same way

[Ice009]

The biggest issue right now is figuring out a way to prioritize RJ's offense more than it has been in games with Tony and Tim. He's too good at drawing fouls and driving the lane to make him the fourth option to start the game.

I'm not sure if I like the idea of Hill starting because I think he actually works better with Manu than he does with Tony. The problem is that on nights when Manu struggles like tonight then the chemistry isn't there but when Manu is off they're going to have problems either way.

Plus, I honestly hate seeing RMJ run the point. I don't think he's very good at it at all.

LOL do not rip me for this, but I will mention SJax again. I agree with most of what you said and I think if we get SJax I would start him with TP and Hill. Hill works well with either Manu or Tony. So far Tony doesn't work well with RJ at all. They might be better with a shooter like SJax. I think since SJax is more of a shooter and is a slightly better defender than RJ he would work better in the starting 5. Then you can have Manu and RJ off of the bench who seem to work brilliantly together.

Starting 5

Tim
Antonio
SJax
Hill
Parker

Bench
RJ
Manu
Bonner
Blair
Bogans

[Quiet Strength]

So do you believe in Hill's playmaking and PG abilities rather then Parker's.

No. The spurs did look better with hill running the team the last 2 games but my trust is in parker. Parker is just in a slump and he needs something to snap his ass out of it. Like I said.. he's struggling more defensively than anything else.

[kbrury]

No. The spurs did look better with hill running the team the last 2 games but my trust is in parker. Parker is just in a slump and he needs something to snap his ass out of it. Like I said.. he's struggling more defensively than anything else.

You mean Ginobili right?

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

No. The spurs did look better with hill running the team the last 2 games but my trust is in parker. Parker is just in a slump and he needs something to snap his ass out of it. Like I said.. he's struggling more defensively than anything else.

I agree. TP will be fine, he's just getting his wind back and sloughing the rust. It's not like he suddenly lost an arm and the ability to play basketball or something!

[Quiet Strength]

You mean Ginobili right?

Are you saying that the spurs looked better with manu running the team or that manu is struggling? Or neither? :lol

[Ice009]

George's work on Durant was incredible. Remember when Pop threw him at Kobe last season?

Sure Kobe owned the crap outta him....but Pop is really starting to get a grasp on what he can get out of Hill's defense. Even though he's in year 2, he is still the most pleasant surprise of this season thus far.

Hill was tough against Kobe. When Kobe hit that three if Hill's face it did not faze Hill at all. He played air tight defense on that shot and it was just a great, great shot from Kobe.

[kbrury]

Are you saying that the spurs looked better with manu running the team or that manu is struggling? Or neither? :lol

You could actually say both after that game but while Hill did start at PG he wasn't the primary ball handler for long stretches Manu and even RJ to an extent were the playmakers as Hill played offball which is why I agree with Hill starting at the 2.

When Parker goes out Manu comes in where he and Hill can share the ball handling.

[The Truth #6]

I'm not in to this idea. Hill is finally learnng to be a point guard. I don't like the idea of trying to turn him back into a shooting guard. If Tony can learn how to get RJ involved in the beginning of the game we can live with Bogans starting, assuming he continues to play solid defense. An eventual 2nd unit of Manu, Blair, and Hill should be the goal, as well as getting Dice into the starting lineup. Starting Hill could create more long term problems because then we'd have another scorer into the starting lineup who takes away even more points from RJ, which was the main problem tonight.

Bottom line: Tony needs to adjust as the leader on the court, especially if Pop gave him additional responsibility this year. If Tony doesn't adjust then Pop needs to make it happen.

[DAF86]

Good idea. Bench Duncan and start Bonner while you're at it.

Yeah, and bench Manu and start Bogans too... oh, wait.

[Quiet Strength]

You could actually say both after that game but while Hill did start at PG he wasn't the primary ball handler for long stretches Manu and even RJ to an extent were the playmakers as Hill played offball which is why I agree with Hill starting at the 2.

When Parker goes out Manu comes in where he and Hill can share the ball handling.

I have nothing against parker and hill both starting. This early in the season pop has to experiment and find out what works best. The only players I do not want to start again are finley and bonner. As for hill, manu, and rj all handling the ball and making plays thats what pop has to continue doing. Him going back to only parker and duncan making plays is not working anymore. All 5 players on the floor have to be involved somehow.

[kbrury]

This is my opinion but I don't think Hill will ever be a great PG but he will be a great combo guard and be able to be the PG for short stretches when needed. Hes great at moving without the ball and plays with lots of energy which is why I think he plays better offball with Tony or Manu.

[The Truth #6]

Hill is better with Manu because they actually complement each other. They both play with intensity and Manu's passing offsets Hill's lack of. I don't see any synergy between Tony and Hill.

[pjjrfan]

I get it -- they are short. But GH is long, so I don't care he's a couple inches too short. Against most teams, this backcourt would work. They play well together and it gives the Spurs more versatility offensively (plus GH's D would be good to start the game).

Also TP needs to feed RJ early in the game. RJ obviously can't work his way into the offense and needs to have the ball more from the get-go. Tony can distribute early and score late. He'll still get his.
Really not a bad idea, especially since I think Hill can play major minutes and it will only help his game. Have Hill play all the 1st quarter and rest Tony at the 3 or 4 minute mark. Then bring him back and have Hill sit and then play them both the last 6 minutes of the 1st half. As far as Jefferson is concerned I think he got plenty of touches he just never took shots, if that was by design I don't know, but I thought Jefferson passed up a lot of good looks letting other guys take shots especiallly iwtht he clock running down.

[Ice009]

Really not a bad idea, especially since I think Hill can play major minutes and it will only help his game. Have Hill play all the 1st quarter and rest Tony at the 3 or 4 minute mark. Then bring him back and have Hill sit and then play them both the last 6 minutes of the 1st half. As far as Jefferson is concerned I think he got plenty of touches he just never took shots, if that was by design I don't know, but I thought Jefferson passed up a lot of good looks letting other guys take shots especiallly iwtht he clock running down.

Maybe RJ isn't a jump shooter or has enough confidence in his shot.

I only got to start watching from halfway through the second quarter and League Pass Broadband was not showing the game until then.

I am all for Hill starting BTW.

I like this idea from Kori. I just didn't know if he would be tall enough to cover the SGs, but I think he can with his wingspan. Looks like Pop agrees with Kori and likes both TP and Hill out there together.

Bogans is probably not as good as he's looked the last few games. Hill is going to be a lot better and bring it more consistently IMO. I also thought TP should have gotten Hill a lot more looks at the end on those corner 3 pointers. George Hill seems to have worked his ass off on that shot and should be a great fit with TP if he can keep nailing those shots. TP was able to get the ball to Bruce for those shots all the time. That should work the same with Hill.

[duhoh]

I dont see why that is so funny. Hill started the last 2 games the spurs got two very good wins.. Parker comes back and the spurs lose. I love parker as a player but right now its about winning and who is playing better all around.

yeah because a sophomore player is so much better than a 3 time champion PG with a finals MVP who is in his prime.

look at the big picture before making cases for ideas that clearly points out your high intellect.

[Allanon]

RJ's never been a good shooter, very streaky. He's more of a slasher than a shooter. And we saw tonight why Pop has started Bonner instead of Blair with RJ.

Starting Hill and Parker together would be great but that leaves the bench with no PG.

My guess is Pop sends RJ to the bench and if health allows him to, bring in Manu as starting SF.

Off the bench you'd have a pretty good bench mob. The starting unit can run the Spurs offense which Manu knows well. The bench can be mini-Suns...run and gun while playing to RJ's transition and slashing game.

Hill-PG
RMJ-SG
RJ SF
Dice/Bonner/Ratliff - PF/C

[Quiet Strength]

yeah because a sophomore player is so much better than a 3 time champion PG with a finals MVP who is in his prime.

look at the big picture before making cases for ideas that clearly points out your high intellect.

:lol I am looking at the big picture. The spurs need defense to win a championship and even though some of you spurs fans are all over parkers balls he is sucking very bad at defense. I have never seen him this bad defensively. Just because parker is a 3 time champ and a finals mvp doesnt mean that he's going to play as great as he did when he won the mvp. I only said that hill has been playing better than parker has been lately and that is mostly on defense. You dont have to be an asshole.. I just want to see the spurs win. Simple as that.

[kobyz]

:lol I am looking at the big picture. The spurs need defense to win a championship and even though some of you spurs fans are all over parkers balls he is sucking very bad at defense. I have never seen him this bad defensively. Just because parker is a 3 time champ and a finals mvp doesnt mean that he's going to play as great as he did when he won the mvp. I only said that hill has been playing better than parker has been lately and that is mostly on defense. You dont have to be an asshole.. I just want to see the spurs win. Simple as that.

i agree, parker need to pick up his defense, it can't go on like this, maybe benching him for couple of games is the only solution to make him understand that.

[duhoh]

:lol I am looking at the big picture. The spurs need defense to win a championship and even though some of you spurs fans are all over parkers balls he is sucking very bad at defense. I have never seen him this bad defensively. Just because parker is a 3 time champ and a finals mvp doesnt mean that he's going to play as great as he did when he won the mvp. I only said that hill has been playing better than parker has been lately and that is mostly on defense. You dont have to be an asshole.. I just want to see the spurs win. Simple as that.

i don't think you understand.

if SA is like this in June, I completely agree with you. but it's not. parker has never been good at defense anyways. that's not never been his thing, and never will be.

SA has team defense. individual-defense only stood out because bowen and TD being great examples of that. mostly everyone else was a decent, and more recently, poor.

the spurs in 03 to 07 were suffocating in the 2nd half of the season. they also suffocated defensively in the 2nd half of games more than the first half. especially in the 3rd quarter.

yes, we both want them to win, but please think things through. GH3 has not led a team through the playoffs where it matters. parker has. GH is a stud, but let's see how he does in the post-season.

this is like having practices for Pop right now. let's calm down now.

[The Truth #6]

If Tony can't get other people involved then Pop needs to assume more control again calling plays. I think Hill is excellent as a backup. Our second unit gets a decent amount of minutes as it is, which is good as it gives rest to the vets. Moving Hill into the starting lineup will not get RJ more involved in the offense, which is what the issue is. This is something Tony the starting PG needs to work on. Tony, Tim , and RJ should be enough offense for the starting 3. This allows Manu and Hill to keep our momentum going with the subs. As such, Bogans complements them with defense. Before more random shuffling, I think Tony should adapt rather than have everyone adapt around him.

[ManuTastic]

This might be a good short-term solution to get us some more wins but IMO it would be evading the central problem than solving it.

The problem is how will a 5-man unit with multiple offensive weapons mesh together. Whatever we do now, later in the season we are (hopefully) going to finish games with the 5-man unit of TD/Dice/RJ/Manu/TP. These guys need to understand how to keep everyone involved.

The last decade or so, the Spurs' rotation had at most 3 offensive weapons to share among. So you had at least 2 players camping out beyond the arc waiting for some open looks. And Pop's offensive playbook with his crunch-time unit was relatively simple: TD in the post, or Manu/TD high pick-n-roll or TP breaking down the D.

That was fine as long as we had Bowen and Horry standing still waiting for the pass. This year's team has different personnel. What we lost in 3-point shooting, we have gained in other areas (RJ attacking the basket, Dice and his mid-range game). Pop needs to diversify his playbook ASAP.

Amen and well-said.

[spursfan1000]

I would rather start Bogans who has more size and better defense.

[Quiet Strength]

i don't think you understand.

if SA is like this in June, I completely agree with you. but it's not. parker has never been good at defense anyways. that's not never been his thing, and never will be.

SA has team defense. individual-defense only stood out because bowen and TD being great examples of that. mostly everyone else was a decent, and more recently, poor.

the spurs in 03 to 07 were suffocating in the 2nd half of the season. they also suffocated defensively in the 2nd half of games more than the first half. especially in the 3rd quarter.

yes, we both want them to win, but please think things through. GH3 has not led a team through the playoffs where it matters. parker has. GH is a stud, but let's see how he does in the post-season.

this is like having practices for Pop right now. let's calm down now.


Of course hill has not led a team in the playoffs.. he hasn't been given the chance to. I think he could have been huge for the spurs last year in the playoffs if he was given alot more minutes.

I know it is very early in the season but the spurs need to figure out a way to play stronger defense. Last season it was horrible. The spurs already know what they're going to get out of parker, duncan, manu but these new players need the playing time to develop. So why would it matter now if pop started hill over parker? Hill needs the experience too. Whos to say that he can't become just as good or even better than parker? I dont really care if hill starts or not I just want him to get enough playing time and that goes for hairston too. They're young and hungry for a championship.. the spurs need that kind of energy so the older players can feed off of.

[TDMVPDPOY]

lol at parker fans afraid GHILL3 will steal his starting job.....

[TJastal]

Wow, everyone's down on Bogan's already? I'm still digesting the crow I ate from this guy's last game ... good lord that was fast.

Has his fanboi club even given up on him?

[wildbill2u]

I get it -- they are short. But GH is long, so I don't care he's a couple inches too short. Against most teams, this backcourt would work. They play well together and it gives the Spurs more versatility offensively (plus GH's D would be good to start the game).

Also TP needs to feed RJ early in the game. RJ obviously can't work his way into the offense and needs to have the ball more from the get-go. Tony can distribute early and score late. He'll still get his.

What's wrong with playing our best players as starters and giving them the most minutes. That's basically what every team in sports does.

Parker
Manu
Duncan
Jefferson
McDyess

This would be a formidable starting lineup and because of our better depth we could then bring in

Hill
Blair
Bonner
Bogan
Mason

Not a bad second team for a few minutes against the other teams second unit.

Spot players Finley and Ratliff, Hairston, Ian, Haislip.

[SenorSpur]

i agree, parker need to pick up his defense, it can't go on like this, maybe benching him for couple of games is the only solution to make him understand that.

There's no doubt that Parker defense has been surprisingly atrocious. It's almost as though he's saving himself for the offensive end. THAT is what this team doesn't need - another bad defender on the court. There is no excuse for it. This is no time for TP to start turning into a "sacred cow."

Some guys like Mason, Bonner and Finley are simply bad defenders and there's not much that will change there. Pop has taken strides to help improve the overall team defense by replacing Finley for Bogans and sitting down Bonner. He needs to go the extra mile and demand that everyone be accountable on the defensive side or they sit - no matter who they are. Parker included. I'm sure he already does this, but it's not sinking in to some.

[ElNono]

What's wrong with playing our best players as starters and giving them the most minutes. That's basically what every team in sports does.

Parker
Manu
Duncan
Jefferson
McDyess

This would be a formidable starting lineup and because of our better depth we could then bring in

Hill
Blair
Bonner
Bogan
Mason

Not a bad second team for a few minutes against the other teams second unit.

Spot players Finley and Ratliff, Hairston, Ian, Haislip.

It's because we're too good, so we need to somehow handicap ourselves to make the game more interesting. :jack

[EmptyMan]

G Hill should get to start based on his Defense alone.

[TJastal]

G Hill should get to start based on his Defense alone.

Careful, statements like these will get the fanbois frothing at the mouth.

[eisfeld]

What's wrong with playing our best players as starters and giving them the most minutes. That's basically what every team in sports does.

Because the Spurs have to manage the minutes for Duncan, Manu and Dice. Manu never was a 35 mpg player and isn't that effective in that role. Playing Timmy for extended minutes would lead to him being tired later in the season and maybe more injury prone. Same goes with Dice.

[Death In June]

Pop feeling obligated on giving Finley and Mason PT out of respect will hurt this team more than help in the long run.


Pop may be a great X's and O's coach, perhaps the best in the NBA.

But his respect and loyalty with some players runs on fumes sometimes.


I'm hoping Spurs are offered a can't say no deal for their expiring contracts, so this team can actually reach it's full potential.People are writing off RMJ a little too soon. I don't think he's been able to establish any sort of rhythm with the playing time he's gotten. Too many players are being cycled in and out, and he's been the odd man out. He isn't going to be any good from from the bench though. He's only ever showed that he could be decent when playing as the starting sg.

[SenorSpur]

People are writing off RMJ a little too soon. I don't think he's been able to establish any sort of rhythm with the playing time he's gotten. Too many players are being cycled in and out, and he's been the odd man out. He isn't going to be any good from from the bench though. He's only ever showed that he could be decent when playing as the starting sg.

Before the FO or us fans ship out RMJ, I'd like to see him back in a starter's role. See him get some rhythm and confidence. He's still a liability at backup PG and on thee defensive side, but when he's on, he can be an unconscious, cold-blooded shooter.

[wildbill2u]

Because the Spurs have to manage the minutes for Duncan, Manu and Dice. Manu never was a 35 mpg player and isn't that effective in that role. Playing Timmy for extended minutes would lead to him being tired later in the season and maybe more injury prone. Same goes with Dice.

They are still going to get the most minutes, no matter who starts or how you manage the minutes.

Make the most out of those minutes by playing them together. The reason for putting Manu on the bench was to give some firepower to the bench players when they came into the game. Our new bench has some firepower of its own

[HarlemHeat37]

According to the numbers, our best defensive lineup this year has been..

PG Parker
SG Hill
SF Jefferson
PF McDyess
C Duncan

[lurker23]

Kind of late to the party here, but I think this is an idea worth trying. Actually, mountainballer and I were talking about this a few days ago in this thread:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138955


the question about the perfect role for Hill with this team will become more and more relevant, the more he develops.
Tony is currently the Spurs best player and will be for some more years. (let's assume he gets an extension till 2015).
Hill could soon be the 2nd best guard on the Spurs (not this year, as Manu showed last night, but maybe next season?) and he is young, so you want to play him 33-35 minutes and not be just Tony's back up in the first place.
then the question is: will the Spurs back court of the future be Tony+Hill? if yes, what other wing player would it take to balance for the lack of size and sub par 3pt shooting. or is the Spurs future small ball anyhow?


Some very good questions. I think there's a distinct possibility that Tony+Hill is the starting back court of the future, with the Spurs bringing in another player to be Tony's backup. I don't think the size is a major issue, as Hill's wingspan allows him to guard most 2-guards, though it could become a problem if Hill is assigned to the opponent's PG (e.g.- Chris Paul), and Tony has to guard the opposing SG.

As far as the SF to match with these two, I agree with what you implied: it should be a long 3 who can hit the three-pointer (though I wouldn't give up quite yet on Parker or Hill developing a respectable three-point shot). I think the answer is probably sitting right in front of our face: Richard Jefferson. Remember that he's only 2 years older than Parker. The major question will be what kind of contract he demands in 2011, and whether his Spurs experience will convince him to sign an extension of the long-term/hometown discount variety. (Also, we'll have to see if his near 40% on 3-pointers last year was a fluke or sign of things to come.)

As far as Kori's idea of keeping Hill as Tony's backup (removing Hill at the 6 minute mark for Manu, bringing him back in at the start of the 2nd quarter when Tony sits), I think it's something that CAN be done, but I don't know if it's something that is necessarily easy rotation-wise in the long-term (especially when you get into more unpredictable second half rotations). While this would certainly be the goal, I think we'd have to accept the fact that once in a while this would mean RMJ or (preferably) Manu being the primary ball-handler (probably 2-6 minutes per game).

[murpjf88]

Who's going to back up parker? Mason? No thanks.

[timaios]

Who's going to back up parker? Mason? No thanks.

Manu can play 10-12 min at PG.

[rascal]

I get it -- they are short. But GH is long, so I don't care he's a couple inches too short. Against most teams, this backcourt would work. They play well together and it gives the Spurs more versatility offensively (plus GH's D would be good to start the game).

Also TP needs to feed RJ early in the game. RJ obviously can't work his way into the offense and needs to have the ball more from the get-go. Tony can distribute early and score late. He'll still get his.

I've been saying start Hill at the 2 since last year. Its time to trade Manu and get a starting caliber center like Camby. Jefferson is still a capable 20 point scorer and adding Camby and more shots and minutes to Blair and Hill the Spurs will not miss a beat losing manu. And getting Camby gives them a true center which they will need to matchup with the bigger Lakers.

[mingus]

i still say Bogans should start. i can't see him as a bench guy now, and i can't ever see him evolving into a bench guy later on because he needs an open look to score ala Bruce Bowen and those guys just don't work well off the bench imo. Hill can score on opposing team's bench defenses he's just not making the effort to do it as much as he should imo.

[mingus]

and Parker looked SLOW yesterday. hopefully he gets his legs back.

one other thing i noticed that he's not doing (even before he went down) is he's not using his mid-range game. eveything seemed to be drives, and he took a couple of hard falls early on this season, which could actually still be affecting him. i'd like to see him establish his mid-range game again.

another thing: whatever ever happened to the talk of posting up Richard Jefferson? haven't seen that happen yet. another thing with RJ is he just stands around; he doesn't cut to the basket. maybe it's because he's used to be the go to guy from last year... but esp when Duncan has the ball in the post i'd like to see less standing around from him. Duncan and Manu are great passers and he could benefit from them more than he has.

Blair... i'd like to see get the ball more offensively.

McDyess is money from 15. he needs to get that shot more often. hopefully last night was a sign of things to come.

those are some of the kinks in the offense that need to be straigtened out imo.

[SenorSpur]

I get it -- they are short. But GH is long, so I don't care he's a couple inches too short. Against most teams, this backcourt would work. They play well together and it gives the Spurs more versatility offensively (plus GH's D would be good to start the game).

Also TP needs to feed RJ early in the game. RJ obviously can't work his way into the offense and needs to have the ball more from the get-go. Tony can distribute early and score late. He'll still get his.

Kori, you must be a soothsayer. Apparently, Pop was thinking the same thing.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139585

[ElNono]

Kori, you must be a soothsayer. Apparently, Pop was thinking the same thing.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139585

Not saying Kori is not a visionary, but... Did you actually watch last game?

[SenorSpur]

Not saying Kori is not a visionary, but... Did you actually watch last game?

Of course. Yet she's advocated this pairing for a while now - long before that game.

[ElNono]

Of course. Yet she's advocated this pairing for a while now - long before that game.

She did? I missed that.
I'm impressed now.

[rascal]

Hill is not a true pg. He plays better at the 2 and can rise to be a star in the league if given the chance at the 2.

[SenorSpur]

Hill is a much-improved player and he makes things happen. He's also a very good defender to be so young. While they will be a quicker backcourt, I just worry that it's a backcourt that lacks length and height.

[rascal]

She did? I missed that.
I'm impressed now.

I'm with you I don't remember seeing her say this last year.

[lurker23]

I imagine Kori may have expressed this opinion even earlier, but here's one example:


http://www.woai.com/content/sports/spurs/story/The-Spurs-Pathway-to-Victory/7y7N-6PGtkCc5mNSgrxb3A.cspx


In 2006, the Mavs changed the complexion of the series by inserting Devin Harris into the starting lineup. Harris' penetration, defense and activity level were invaluable qualities for Dallas. That strategy is something the Spurs can borrow by playing Parker and Hill together for long stretches.

With a Parker and Hill duo, the Spurs suddenly won't appear as sedentary and unathletic. They can also better match the Mavericks' personnel and if they get out and run, that duo could help the Spurs get a few much needed effortless conversions in transition.

[The Truth #6]

Inevitably they will find time on the court together, however I think going out of the way to start them together creates more problems. Hill is comfortable coming off the bench as is Manu, who plays better with Hill than Tony does. With Hill starting this will create more confusion for RMJ, Bogans, and RJ.

I still believe we should have continued with Bogans starting to see how that was going to work. People assume it was going to fail before it had a chance to fail. We're performing experiments without waiting for the results. Where's the analysis in that?

The goal should be for Tony to find a way to integrate RJ into the offense. To me that is still the central issue.

With either Bogans or Hill starting our defense will improve over Finley or RMJ. But with Hill starting it's basically saying either RMJ will never play again or he'll only play backup PG. These are two bad options.

Hill is a good player so he will contribute. That's obvious. What isn't clear is how this will affect the rest of the team. I think it's a dumb move until proven wrong.

[timvp]

Bump.


Nice call. :married:

If the Hill doesn't start the rest of the year, that will be a mistake. An added plus is that he's much better and defending swingmen than point guards.

And while RJ was supposed to run with TP, that really hasn't worked because RJ isn't that fast. Hill, on the other hand, forms a nice running twosome with Parker.

[Ice009]

Hmm I was going on about trading for SJax earlier in this thread and starting him at SF with a Hill, Parker back court and moving RJ to the bench.

I would love that right now.