I don't think RJ can play with TP

[SequSpur]

I don't know what it is, but they don't mesh well...

TP plays well when everybody stands around and he takes his defender of the dribble and he either shoots or dishes it... He fuckin blows in a movement offense....

I understand it's early and shouldn't be jumping off a cliff but fuck man, I hate going to Spurs games for entertainment and see a bunch of BS basketball...

The refs sucked too.

[Agloco]

TP just needs to stop making shots harder for himself. There were a lot of cases where he had the option of passing for an easier look, but instead took it into the middle of traffic for a high degree of difficulty shot.

I'm hoping he can change his game, for the teams sake.

[ploto]

This has been my concern since the Spurs traded for RJ- he needs a different kind of PG to succeed.

[sabar]

This is why having all all-star at every position is useless. "Dream teams" are forced to make stars into role players and they get out of sync.

Someone needs to move to the bench or swap with Manu. We have too many options and its easier than changing our offensive schemes.

[Ice009]

This is why having all all-star at every position is useless. "Dream teams" are forced to make stars into role players and they get out of sync.

Someone needs to move to the bench or swap with Manu. We have too many options and its easier than changing our offensive schemes.

I don't think they mesh well either.

I don't agree about the Dream Team thing though. We could trade for SJax and I think he would fit into the starting lineup a lot better than RJ and play better with Parker as he is a bit better defender than RJ and also can spot up and shot the 3 from TP's passes.

RJ and Manu off the bench would work well too I think. They seem to play well together.

[lefty]

I don't know what it is, but they don't mesh well...

TP plays well when everybody stands around and he takes his defender of the dribble and he either shoots or dishes it... He fuckin blows in a movement offense....

I understand it's early and shouldn't be jumping off a cliff but fuck man, I hate going to Spurs games for entertainment and see a bunch of BS basketball...

The refs sucked too.
The season is young, we have new players, so they all have to get used to each other.


DOn't worry

[Spursmania]

It's early. Give them time...

But, yeah, we didn't get much from RJ or Manu tonight.

[spursfan09]

It's still so early guys.... and Tony just played his first game back from injury....

I prefer to not overreact and act like the world is ending becasue the Spurs lost to OKC. They did last year to...

[Yogurt210]

It's still so early guys.... and Tony just played his first game back from injury....

I prefer to not overreact and act like the world is ending becasue the Spurs lost to OKC. They did last year to...

exactly,, and we get knocked out the first round

[Tp9gospursgo]

It'll take a while for this team to mesh. We're gonna have nights where we don't play good and others where we play great. I'm not worried at all and I don't expect anyone to be traded unless its Michael Finley.

[Interrohater]

exactly,, and we get knocked out the first round

Dude, young teams have always been our bane, even in championship seasons. The Bucks were always whoopin our asses. If you really think that the Thunder would beat the Spurs in a seven game series in the playoffs, then you have reason to be so pessimistic. However, it's really not that big a deal. Young teams don't win championships.

Why do so many people forget that we all predicted these early season struggles? And how do so many people forget that we're a 2nd half of the season team?

[Spursfan 87]

RJ only 4 FGA
TP 18 FGA

Tony pass the fucking ball, RJ should be the #1 option on offense.

[Allanon]

TP plays well when everybody stands around and he takes his defender of the dribble and he either shoots or dishes

You can switch Tony for RJ and you come up with the same...and that's the problem..two guys who play in the same space and neither is a deadly 3 point shooter. Defenses just back off them so it leaves even less room for them to slash.

"RJ plays well when everybody stands around and he takes his defender of the dribble and he either shoots or dishes."

[mesothorny]

If it's gonna work, TP's gonna have to stop stopping ball movement. I'll take TP's hogging with a short shot clock, but the ball's gotta swing early in every possession to get everyone going.

[phyzik]

You can switch Tony for RJ and you come up with the same...and that's the problem..two guys who play in the same space and neither is a deadly 3 point shooter. Defenses just back off them so it leaves even less room for them to slash.

"RJ plays well when everybody stands around and he takes his defender of the dribble and he either shoots or dishes."

Having another Manu isnt a bad thing. Thats essentially Manu's game.

[duhoh]

I don't think we've seen enough of RJ playing with TP to give a legitimate response.

[Allanon]

Having another Manu isnt a bad thing. Thats essentially Manu's game.

The difference between Manu and RJ is that Manu's a deadly 3 point shooter. Although Manu's been a bit off lately, defenders still have to honor his 3. RJ's a decent transition shooter but really not a spot up shooter in a set offense.

Manu + Tony is perfectly fine because Manu stretches the D out to the 3 point line. If you watch guys defending RJ and Tony, they'd prefer to give them the 3 while they back off. With BOTH Tony and RJ's guy backing off, there's even less room for either of them to work in the paint where they're most effective.

Manu's also an excellent passer with excellent vision while both Tony and RJ are only decent playmakers. Tony is a better playmaker than RJ but that's still not saying much. Manu drives to score or make plays 60/40. Tony and RJ drive to score or make plays about 80/20.

With Manu, defenders basically have to butt hug him and still worry about getting taken off the dribble and then worry about him making a play for somebody else.

[mesothorny]

Having another Manu isnt a bad thing. Thats essentially Manu's game.

But he isn't another Manu. If he dribbles, he's headed straight for the rim (or contact), just like TP. Manu can see the floor like a point guard - something RJ has never been able to do. Tony, RJ and even Tim have all been ball-stoppers, so there's certainly work to be done if fluidity is gonna happen. I actually think it will, too, but it's gonna take a bit longer than some Spurs fans are willing to endure.

[timaios]

Tim, Manu & Tony are playing together since 2002... 7 years !
Jefferson... 3 weeks !!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:lol:lol

Maybe you could wait one more week, i don't know... or 3 months.

[BillMc]

i don't think we've seen enough of rj playing with tp to give a legitimate response.

+1

[HarlemHeat37]

Allanon pretty much summed it up perfectly..

It's going to be very tough for Jefferson and Parker to fit together..

[draft87]

I don't know what it is, but they don't mesh well...

TP plays well when everybody stands around and he takes his defender of the dribble and he either shoots or dishes it... He fuckin blows in a movement offense....

I understand it's early and shouldn't be jumping off a cliff but fuck man, I hate going to Spurs games for entertainment and see a bunch of BS basketball...

The refs sucked too.


Yeah I TOTALLY agree. In fact, I think it's Parker, Jefferson, AND the refs that can't play together. AND the opponent. I'm POSITIVE that if the the refs and the other team aren't on the court then Parker and Jefferson can share it!

[Ice009]

Allanon pretty much summed it up perfectly..

It's going to be very tough for Jefferson and Parker to fit together..

lol Yep Allanon actually summed it up really well.

[JustinJDW]

it's early. Give them time...

But, yeah, we didn't get much from rj or manu tonight.+1.

[Kori Ellis]

Give them time. Actually Parker is pretty suited to play with RJ because they both like to run and they both can finish. Parker hasn't played with many players that can run with him, so it will take time to adjust.

[MaNu4Tres]

If anyone has Pokerstars I would appreciate your support. Let me know if you do. If you don't ignore.

[kace]

Manu's also an excellent passer with excellent vision while both Tony and RJ are only decent playmakers. Tony is a better playmaker than RJ but that's still not saying much. Manu drives to score or make plays 60/40. Tony and RJ drive to score or make plays about 80/20.

With Manu, defenders basically have to butt hug him and still worry about getting taken off the dribble and then worry about him making a play for somebody else.


Allanon pretty much summed it up perfectly..

It's going to be very tough for Jefferson and Parker to fit together..


lol Yep Allanon actually summed it up really well.

Allanon's post seems very interesting but.......is still false for the passing part (the 3 pts part is right).


for the last three years, manu's ratio of shot taken/assist (including for shots the number of shooting fouls drawn) is 3.6 (2008-2009), 3.4 (2007-2008) and 3.8 (2006-2007).

as for the ratio assist/bad pass: 3.2, 2.8 and 3.1


for tony the last three years from 2008-2009 to 2006-2007: ratio shot taken/assist: 2.9, 2.9 and 3

ratio assist-bad pass: 7, 6.2 and 5.5


so, not only manu isn't a better passer than tony (indeed, his ratio assist/bad pass is twice worse than tony's one the last three years), but manu choose more often than tony to shoot rather than to assist (indeed, for the last 3 years, manu's lowest ratio of shot taken compared to assist made is still way superior as tony's highest).

still, these stats don't include times where the player give away the ball without making an assist.

but the fact than manu can make spectacular passes that tony can't, at least in such a regular basis, shouldn't hide us the truth of passing abilities.


(stats from 82games.com)

[raspsa]

Its going to take time to develop chemistry betwen the old guys and new faces. Injuries to key players make this even more difficult. Others are still not in game shape.But have faith in the players and coaching staff.. they're not dimmies and given enough time, they will sort things out.

Talk of trades is way premature. You work with the pieces you have. IMO developing strong team cohesion will trump inividual greatness at the end of the day.

[Brazil]

Maybe RJ can take the off bench duties and lead the second squad. Let Manu in the starting 5 with Tim and TD + Dice, let RJ dominate the second unit with George and Blair.

[024]

I agree that Parker needs to evolve his game and become a better passing pg. Spurs fans still expect Parker to be the leading scorer but I think he should take a step back. He is the point guard so it's his responsibility to distribute the ball, not look to create for himself. But this has nothing to do with todays lost. Ginobili clunking his shots was the problem.

[spursncowboys]

Maybe RJ can take the off bench duties and lead the second squad. Let Manu in the starting 5 with Tim and TD + Dice, let RJ dominate the second unit with George and Blair.

Manu and Jefferson played good together. Keep them together.

[portnoy1]

TP is great and underrated in many instances, but the thing that separates him from the so called top 1 or 2 best PG spots is that he cant see the floor as good as CP3, D-Will, Rondo and Calderon (Note - both Rondo and Calderon are inferior to TP but as PG's they offensively have a better awareness). Parker can rack up assist by penetration and dish all day long. However finding people in their spots is something he has difficulty doing. The other 4 PG's mention will look for cutters and guys coming off screens, mismatches and finding people in their spots. Im not gonna shortchange TP, he can do all those things mentioned above. However its not natural for him, and since that is the case his game suffers. Its a catch 22 because him giving up the ball will mean more opportunities for RJ in particular and some others. However that screws up TP's game, and since he is the most consistent and dominant scorer on the team you want him to be comfortable in the offense so he can perform night in, night out at his highest potential. So him going 1 on 5 and kicking out to RJ will have to do. If TP looks for his teammates and isnt offensively aggressive then he looks lost. I've seen it before, you dont get much out of him. The good thing is that TP going 1 on 5 wont screw up RJ's game as bad as Parker moving the ball around, because when Parker kicks out to RJ, RJ can shoot the 3 or take it off the dribble and do his thing.

[benefactor]

Is any of this really a surprise? Parker is just doing the same things he has done for years with this team. You can't undo that in a couple of weeks. New player...new system...new teammates...new roles...how many times does it have to be said before we all figure out that they are not just going to magically mend together seamlessly as soon as they all step on the floor?

Parker and RJ will be fine. They just need floor time together so that they can develop a basketball relationship that will enhance each others strengths. RJ will need to recognize when to attack and Parker will need to learn that all the playmaking onus is no longer totally on his shoulders. As others have stated, Pop may need to step in too and work out some ways to get RJ the ball. Perhaps they can do something similar to what the Mavericks do with Howard...where they make it a point to feed him the ball in the first quarter to get him rolling.

[da_suns_fan]

:wakeup

[ElNono]

Allanon's post seems very interesting but.......is still false for the passing part (the 3 pts part is right).


for the last three years, manu's ratio of shot taken/assist (including for shots the number of shooting fouls drawn) is 3.6 (2008-2009), 3.4 (2007-2008) and 3.8 (2006-2007).

as for the ratio assist/bad pass: 3.2, 2.8 and 3.1


for tony the last three years from 2008-2009 to 2006-2007: ratio shot taken/assist: 2.9, 2.9 and 3

ratio assist-bad pass: 7, 6.2 and 5.5


so, not only manu isn't a better passer than tony (indeed, his ratio assist/bad pass is twice worse than tony's one the last three years), but manu choose more often than tony to shoot rather than to assist (indeed, for the last 3 years, manu's lowest ratio of shot taken compared to assist made is still way superior as tony's highest).

still, these stats don't include times where the player give away the ball without making an assist.

but the fact than manu can make spectacular passes that tony can't, at least in such a regular basis, shouldn't hide us the truth of passing abilities.

(stats from 82games.com)

Does those numbers only include when both were playing PG? Otherwise,they're pretty retarded.

[DAF86]

Allanon's post seems very interesting but.......is still false for the passing part (the 3 pts part is right).


for the last three years, manu's ratio of shot taken/assist (including for shots the number of shooting fouls drawn) is 3.6 (2008-2009), 3.4 (2007-2008) and 3.8 (2006-2007).

as for the ratio assist/bad pass: 3.2, 2.8 and 3.1


for tony the last three years from 2008-2009 to 2006-2007: ratio shot taken/assist: 2.9, 2.9 and 3

ratio assist-bad pass: 7, 6.2 and 5.5


so, not only manu isn't a better passer than tony (indeed, his ratio assist/bad pass is twice worse than tony's one the last three years), but manu choose more often than tony to shoot rather than to assist (indeed, for the last 3 years, manu's lowest ratio of shot taken compared to assist made is still way superior as tony's highest).

still, these stats don't include times where the player give away the ball without making an assist.

but the fact than manu can make spectacular passes that tony can't, at least in such a regular basis, shouldn't hide us the truth of passing abilities.


(stats from 82games.com)

Watch the games.

[kace]

Does those numbers only include when both were playing PG? Otherwise,they're pretty retarded.

Read the post i'm answering. it's not a cutting remark to manu who is great at what he does, no doubt.

Allanon was saying manu was 60/40 between shot and pass when he has the ball and tony 80/20. i assume, as manu doesn't play PG, he was talking about their game in their respective position and role.

the fact is this assertion was false. and by far.


Watch the games.

actually, games could be deceptive. a spectacular assist will be highlighted and remembered even between two turnovers whereas a classic inside-outside assist for a 3's will be forgotten quickly.

and the games i watch clearly match those stats.

Once again, not same position, different usefulness, perfect players for this team, no doubt.
but the 80/20 and 60/40 argument is BS.

His argument about RJ and TP not being great 3 pts threats and that it could help the defense against them together on the court is true though.

[ElNono]

Read the post i'm answering. it's not a cutting remark to manu who is great at what he does, no doubt.

Allanon was saying manu was 60/40 between shot and pass when he has the ball and tony 80/20. i assume, as manu doesn't play PG, he was talking about their game in their respective position and role.

the fact is this assertion was false. and by far.

I would agree with Allanon's impressions when both are starting the play.
Obviously, Manu also has to deal with taking a last minute shot after our PG dribbled for 20 seconds without being able to score...

I also agree that you need to watch games more. Overall, Manu is looking to pass more than to score more. It didn't used to be like that when he was more athletic, but the last few seasons, as his PG role increased, he's been passing more/better.

[Whisky Dog]

It's just about getting the right lineups together to make plays. That's what this part of the season is for, I'd expect the Spira to hover just over .500 until about game 20 the start to explode upwards.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Give them time. Actually Parker is pretty suited to play with RJ because they both like to run and they both can finish. Parker hasn't played with many players that can run with him, so it will take time to adjust.

I don't know. People said this exact thing before the 2003-2004 season in regards to Parker and Ginobili. And can we honestly say we've seen alot of two man action between them running down the floor? Not as much as one would think.

[Big P]

RJ & TP both need to start driving to the basket more. I'm sick of everyone standing around watching the ball handler. RJ needs to figure it out quickly & quit trying to be a simple jump shooter. We brought you here for more than spot up shooting. Yes thats how you will get a lot of your shots, coming to the corner waiting for the ball as the defenders sag, but RJ you need to be yourseldf & start driving the ball more & get some easy baskets & fouls.

[kace]

I would agree with Allanon's impressions when both are starting the play.
Obviously, Manu also has to deal with taking a last minute shot after our PG dribbled for 20 seconds without being able to score...

like if manu needed someone to take a desperate step back 3 pts shot.... and i guess some of those pass could bring to some wide open 3 for manu too.


Overall, Manu is looking to pass more than to score more. It didn't used to be like that when he was more athletic, but the last few seasons, as his PG role increased, he's been passing more/better.

he's not passing more nor better. he has always passed enough for me. Manu, as tony, is one of our main offensive weapons. i'm OK with him taking shots.

It's the same shit for three years now. People dream of of very smooth offense where every player will have the same amount of shots and with ten players scoring in double figure. Then come the hard games and the PO, and everyone realize that Mason, Hill, Bonner and even Dice, Blair and RJ this year, are not the players Tim, manu and tony are on offense.

Kobe, you know the leading scorer from the last year champion, take many shots which would be called desperate or ball hogging for any decent players. but he's Kobe and it's what make his team win even if he had to find a balance too in his choices.

I'm not saying that the motion offense couldn't be useful to everyone, stars and role player. i'm not saying it's a good thing to have many weapons when the opponent is focusing on the stars. but stars are the ones who need to have the ball in their hands because they're the ones able to score when the pressure is here.

[Flux451]

Maybe RJ can take the off bench duties and lead the second squad. Let Manu in the starting 5 with Tim and TD + Dice, let RJ dominate the second unit with George and Blair.


This iswhat i was preaching after the Toronto and dallas wins. A littledifferent but, I liketheidea of
starting: Parker, Hill, Bogans, Dice, Timmy
second unit: Hill, Manu, Jefferson, Blair, Dice

[ElNono]

It's the same shit for three years now. People dream of of very smooth offense where every player will have the same amount of shots and with ten players scoring in double figure. Then come the hard games and the PO, and everyone realize that Mason, Hill, Bonner and even Dice, Blair and RJ this year, are not the players Tim, manu and tony are on offense.

But it hasn't been. Last year it was entirely legitimate for Tony to 'take over', because TD was limping around and Manu was out.
But both RJ and Dice this year are legitimate NBA players that average double figures on their careers. That's exactly why they were brought in.


Kobe, you know the leading scorer from the last year champion, take many shots which would be called desperate or ball hogging for any decent players. but he's Kobe and it's what make his team win even if he had to find a balance too in his choices.

It's actually interesting you bring Kobe, because he has become a much better player since his assists have gone up and his shot attempts went down. Ask any Laker fan out there, and they'll tell you that the nights that Kobe is taking too many shots spell trouble for them.
Obviously, now that Gasol is out, he's taking a higher load, which makes sense, just as much as it made sense when TP had nobody else to play with.


I'm not saying that the motion offense couldn't be useful to everyone, stars and role player. i'm not saying it's a good thing to have many weapons when the opponent is focusing on the stars. but stars are the ones who need to have the ball in their hands because they're the ones able to score when the pressure is here.

Stars also need to be smart. That's why Tim doesn't force shots over double or triple teams at the end of games. He prefers to win than to be the hero. That's exactly how role players like Kerr, Horry and Bowen looked insanely great out there.
Now, I'll be the first to tell you that what has me more worried for this season is Tim not being able to command those double teams anymore. Tony getting his or not is really a secondary concern.

[anonoftheinternets]

it will work, once tony understands how rj likes his balls ..:lol

[anonoftheinternets]

^ enough with the gay RJ jokes .... its not funny anymore ... (angry poster 2)

[SA210]

This has been my concern since the Spurs traded for RJ- he needs a different kind of PG to succeed.

Like Manu

[lennyalderette]

what? copy paste or what!!!

[Phenomanul]

Give them time. Actually Parker is pretty suited to play with RJ because they both like to run and they both can finish. Parker hasn't played with many players that can run with him, so it will take time to adjust.

Is it just me or have there been a couple of alley-oop opportunities for RJ that have been overlooked on account of the ball-handlers' unfamiliarity with his predilections???

[TheSpursFNRule]

Fact is they have to exist together...we all know RJ will not be coming off the bench with the 2nd unit. No way can I see that happening.

[Bukefal]

Time, everything is about time. They just need to adjust to eachother, that's normal. We need to give them a break and wait, everything will work out just fine.

[portnoy1]

Time, everything is about time. They just need to adjust to eachother, that's normal. We need to give them a break and wait, everything will work out just fine.
You say time. But time has already shown what to expect. Remember Michael Finley of 04-05 with the Mavs. He was 31 at the time i think. He could shoot the 3 obviously, but he could drive and post and hit midrange pull up jumpers. Immediately once he came to the spurs he became a spot-up shooter that could put the ball on the floor if nessecary. As the seasons with the spurs progressed on he became nothing more than a spot up shooter with additional abilities lost due to non use. RJ is practically the same just not as good a shooter but more athletic. He can drive, post and hit the midrange jumper off the dribble. Sound Familiar? If Pop doesnt take over the playcalling, RJ in a year or 2 will be a shell of his former self. Just like a spur Named Finley who we now bash, but at one time were excited to have. Will that be RJ's fate? its up to TP/Pop.

[SA210]

Is it just me or have there been a couple of alley-oop opportunities for RJ that have been overlooked on account of the ball-handlers' unfamiliarity with his predilections???

It's not you. Tony's a ballhog.

[portnoy1]

It's not you. Tony's a ballhog.
He's been that way since he came in the league. People are calling for his head, but thats his game. Iverson and him are similar except Iverson was the man and didnt have to answer to anybody except Larry Brown who was suddenly let go and seen 2 finals appearances including a win. While Iverson seen a frequent first round exit. TP has a hall of fame Center and 2 allstars who can score as much as he does on any given night if they had the ball. Either we have to get use to RJ becoming a spot up shooter or A trade for Parker. Ill take option B but its to late for that now so it looks like RJ is the next Finley 2.0, so lets all enjoy losing to the Lakers in 4 games while TP torches DFish and the other spurs stand and watch and the Lakers sweep us like in 2001.

[spursfan09]

:wow Just too much biased hatred for Parker...

[ElNono]

:wow Just too much biased hatred for Parker...

It's part of every season. Everybody will love him by January.

[Agloco]

The difference between Manu and RJ is that Manu's a deadly 3 point shooter. Although Manu's been a bit off lately, defenders still have to honor his 3. RJ's a decent transition shooter but really not a spot up shooter in a set offense.

Manu + Tony is perfectly fine because Manu stretches the D out to the 3 point line. If you watch guys defending RJ and Tony, they'd prefer to give them the 3 while they back off. With BOTH Tony and RJ's guy backing off, there's even less room for either of them to work in the paint where they're most effective.

Manu's also an excellent passer with excellent vision while both Tony and RJ are only decent playmakers. Tony is a better playmaker than RJ but that's still not saying much. Manu drives to score or make plays 60/40. Tony and RJ drive to score or make plays about 80/20.

With Manu, defenders basically have to butt hug him and still worry about getting taken off the dribble and then worry about him making a play for somebody else.

+1

Great assessment.

[DaBears]

Give them time. Actually Parker is pretty suited to play with RJ because they both like to run and they both can finish. Parker hasn't played with many players that can run with him, so it will take time to adjust.

You say this! but this season we have seen proof of this when..........

Maybe once or twice in in 6 games..

TP is a ball stopper! always has been, but that is what he was suppose to do score... Now that you have more talent on wings he needs to change his game up to allow others to get into rytm...

[rascal]

Give them time. Actually Parker is pretty suited to play with RJ because they both like to run and they both can finish. Parker hasn't played with many players that can run with him, so it will take time to adjust.

Agree. Both can run and finish. Parker needs to not always pull up on the break and stop and pull it back out to the top of the key to setup the offense. This spur team has a sf finisher that they didn't have before.

The days of the team standing around the perimeter and watching one guy take it to the basket is over. The spurs have the athletes now to get more easy baskets off long rebounds and turnovers in transistion. They just have to adjust to play that way more on the offensive side.

[jj1194]

A month from now everyone will be annointing us...

[Morg1411]

Manu and Jefferson played good together. Keep them together.

+1. I like the chemistry there. Maybe they can both play off the bench, and we start Hill at the 2-guard and Bogans at SF.

(Or not. Just shooting off ideas.)

[galvatron3000]

I don't think they mesh well either.

I don't agree about the Dream Team thing though. We could trade for SJax and I think he would fit into the starting lineup a lot better than RJ and play better with Parker as he is a bit better defender than RJ and also can spot up and shot the 3 from TP's passes.

RJ and Manu off the bench would work well too I think. They seem to play well together.

That I agree with. Rj is bred to play with a Nash, Kidd, Paul or Williams type pg. He is a good player to have and not have to run offense through but he needs to have a pg that will get him involved. Jax is a different type Sf altogether and would fit much better with the starters (with Tony) and having Manu and Rj off the bench together with Hill running the point is a great idea.

Looking like:

Duncan
Blair/Dyess
Jackson
Bogans
Parker

Manu
Jefferson
Hill
Ratliff

[Trimble87]

I remember sometime in 08 Bill Plachske (spelling?) said that Tony and Manu coldnt play together on Around the Horn and got drilled for it by the other guys... but I've always felt the same way. Tony is better when manu is on the bench and vice versa. They both need the ball in order to be productive on the offensive side of the ball... Its different with Jefferson, as he isnt a create with the ball player, but I dont think he will mesh well with parkers style either. Jefferson needs a pass first manage the game point to be succesfull. Unless Tony can incorporate more of a mid-range game and becomes more of a facilitator then Jefferson is going to be a spot up shooter/finisher off the fast break. I just dont see it working any other way for him to generate offense except for set plays to get him open/get him to the rim.

That being said I would rather RJ really work on becoming a great defender and move into that spot up shooter/finisher role then have Tony try and change his game. I believe the Spurs are at their best when Tony is being extreamly agressive and driving the lane, he either scores or finds the wide open man for the jumper. Jefferson, correct me if I'm wrong, has never been the number 1 option for his team. And on the Spurs he is the 4th option. So I dont think its necesary to get him more involved in the offense then we need him to be.

That being said through 8 games, even with the seeming lack of cohesion on the offensive end, the offense has not been the problem. We need the guys to start playing better defense... and both Parker and Jefferson could do better on that side of the court.


**let me clarify by saying I love Tony Manu and Jefferson. I think they will get it going and barring injuries our offense and eventually defense will be very good. I just dont think Jefferson is going to be the dominant 20ppg scorer he was in the past. And if he is I dont think thats necesarily a good thing for this team. **

[da_suns_fan]

Manu and Jefferson play well together because Jefferson is a good finisher and Ginobili is a good creator.

Bottom line is Jefferson cant be effective shooting four shots in a game.

But you guys have the best coach in the world (seriously). He'll probably figure it out long before anyone here does.

[Supergirl]

give them time. Actually parker is pretty suited to play with rj because they both like to run and they both can finish. Parker hasn't played with many players that can run with him, so it will take time to adjust.

+1

[Flux451]

Give them time. Actually Parker is pretty suited to play with RJ because they both like to run and they both can finish. Parker hasn't played with many players that can run with him, so it will take time to adjust.

For real doe.
Jeff is just gonna have to keep up with that son of gun.

[rvman21]

RJ only 4 FGA
TP 18 FGA

Tony pass the fucking ball, RJ should be the #1 option on offense.

amen brother your exactly right

[#2!]

Manu and Jefferson play well together because Jefferson is a good finisher and Ginobili is a good creator.

Bottom line is Jefferson cant be effective shooting four shots in a game.

But you guys have the best coach in the world (seriously). He'll probably figure it out long before anyone here does.

Holy shit...a suns fan is telling spurs fans not to jump off a bridge. and he's right too:wow:lol

But seriously, yes there is a problem w/ the two playing together right now, and yes it is b/c of the style that tony has been forced to play for a couple of seasons (all the offseason talk about TP being our number one option probably doesn't help the ball movement either).

However, with the level of intelligence and unselfishness within the Spurs organization it seems incredibly unlikely that the problem will go unsolved. Do you think Pop didn't notice what we have?

With the depth of our playbook I'm sure that effective plays, or play variations, will be added as the season progresses. In fact, why not take the play in which (previously) Finley ran off of either 1 or 2 screens and caught the ball for a quick shot at the elbow, and instead let RJ cut to the basket from there instead of taking the shot. I'm sure the Spurs can come up w/ something if the people on here can.

[portnoy1]

I remember sometime in 08 Bill Plachske (spelling?) said that Tony and Manu coldnt play together on Around the Horn and got drilled for it by the other guys... but I've always felt the same way. Tony is better when manu is on the bench and vice versa. They both need the ball in order to be productive on the offensive side of the ball... Its different with Jefferson, as he isnt a create with the ball player, but I dont think he will mesh well with parkers style either. Jefferson needs a pass first manage the game point to be succesfull. Unless Tony can incorporate more of a mid-range game and becomes more of a facilitator then Jefferson is going to be a spot up shooter/finisher off the fast break. I just dont see it working any other way for him to generate offense except for set plays to get him open/get him to the rim.

That being said I would rather RJ really work on becoming a great defender and move into that spot up shooter/finisher role then have Tony try and change his game. I believe the Spurs are at their best when Tony is being extreamly agressive and driving the lane, he either scores or finds the wide open man for the jumper. Jefferson, correct me if I'm wrong, has never been the number 1 option for his team. And on the Spurs he is the 4th option. So I dont think its necesary to get him more involved in the offense then we need him to be.

That being said through 8 games, even with the seeming lack of cohesion on the offensive end, the offense has not been the problem. We need the guys to start playing better defense... and both Parker and Jefferson could do better on that side of the court.


**let me clarify by saying I love Tony Manu and Jefferson. I think they will get it going and barring injuries our offense and eventually defense will be very good. I just dont think Jefferson is going to be the dominant 20ppg scorer he was in the past. And if he is I dont think thats necesarily a good thing for this team. **
So in other words the spurs traded a solid rebounder(Thomas) a utility Center(Oberto) and a defensive stopper(Bowen) for a $14million spot up shooter? While at the same time keeping 3 spot up shooters Mason JR./Finley/Bonner who cant provide any of the things that Thomas/Oberto/Bowen provided the team. The front office aint that stupid. Before the trade it was obvious we needed to get younger. We traded 3 old guys who still contributed, just not that much, to get a younger athletic Wing. We still kinda need a bigman but the FO owes RJ $14million. If they really wanted a younger spot up shooter thats athletic they couldve gotten a MUCH MUCH cheaper one. The Spurs have plans for RJ and its not just hit the 3 and D up. Like I said their are cheaper options for that. Battier/Bell and some others. Bottom Line is Parker/Pop are going to have to figure out how to fit RJ in there system. Honestly I just want Pop to start calling plays again and leverage Parkers shoot-first mentality, that way Parker doesnt lose his offensive aggresiveness and the other 4 guys dont suffer because of his lack of court vision.

[ffadicted]

Fuck all (most) of this thread, are we already forgetting what parker did for us just a few months ago last season?

The idea of trading parker is as dumb (if not more) then the whole "trade ginobili" over the summer.

[dbestpro]

This thread is actually funny. Half the posts say it will take time, which means they need to play more together, and the other half of the posts are trying to figure out ways to limit RJ and TP playing together.

[ffadicted]

It's not you. Tony's a ballhog.

After spending more then half a decade without anyone on his team that can legitimately receive an alley-oop, it's understandable why Tony's not looking for it right now.

[rasho8]

The difference between Manu and RJ is that Manu's a deadly 3 point shooter. Although Manu's been a bit off lately, defenders still have to honor his 3. RJ's a decent transition shooter but really not a spot up shooter in a set offense.

Manu + Tony is perfectly fine because Manu stretches the D out to the 3 point line. If you watch guys defending RJ and Tony, they'd prefer to give them the 3 while they back off. With BOTH Tony and RJ's guy backing off, there's even less room for either of them to work in the paint where they're most effective.

Manu's also an excellent passer with excellent vision while both Tony and RJ are only decent playmakers. Tony is a better playmaker than RJ but that's still not saying much. Manu drives to score or make plays 60/40. Tony and RJ drive to score or make plays about 80/20.

With Manu, defenders basically have to butt hug him and still worry about getting taken off the dribble and then worry about him making a play for somebody else.

After watch all the games and the bizarre lineups Pop has put in there it makes sense to me (and im not a coach or even a very knowledgeable basketball fan) that we could split our squad in two and it would work well.

Startes:
TD
TP
Manu
McDyess
Mason

Bench:
RJ
Blair
Ratliff
Hill
Boguns

Hill and RJ seem to work good, Blair and Ratliff can rebound well together, if you use Bonner to spread the floor occasionally his three can force a better matchup for RJ by drawing out the PF.

Clearly Manu, Mason, Blair and McDyess can be shifted between the two teams during changes, but TD/TP should be our A team and Hill/RJ our A- team.

Thats just my observation from club 200 this year.

[SequSpur]

just sayin...