CHANGE THE GAME !!! The only solution for title.

[ginobili fan]

Really TP has to change his mentality.
For that POP have to.
Change the style of playing SPURS.
Tired of seeing the same systems with Tony and Tim.
I mean we a better team potentially but the same old problem, nothing has changed because POP doens't want to!!

[spursfan1000]

I agree with you 100%

[Riverwalkman]

So are you claiming some regular season wins without Parker and Duncan make you consider changing the Tim Duncan&Tony Parker based system?

[spursfan1000]

So are you claiming some regular season wins without Parker and Duncan make you consider changing the Tim Duncan&Tony Parker based system?

Dude, they are not as dominant as they were before, we can't have a system baised on them anymore, not we have better players like Richard Jefferson and George Hill, who need to be more involved.

[ginobili fan]

I agree it isn't an easy thing especially when you used to play like that during 5 years and more you had the success and all... for the fans maybe too, but more for the coaches and players.
But the thing is when you realize you are not the best anymore you have to ask yourself questions , serious questions.
I don't want to say that the Spurs are on decline like the media like to and the global nba fans, but the truth is we reached our limit since 2008.
Each year we had injuries problems, age problems, atheltism problems...
And in the other hand the rest of the league is evolving( portland, orlando...)I think the mentality too: Defense gets you NBA title wich is true but it doesn't suffice anymore.
Remember Spurs 2005, Remember Detroit 2004/2005...
We need more fluid plays, more intensity, less previsible plays, and the most important thing is the team chemistry.
When you see the Spurs the last years, it's more one man show than team victory: no solid defense anymore,the players are waiting and seeing Tony plays or Timmy plays or Manu, but there isn't really chemistry plays beetween the stars.
Look at Boston or Lakers, they know how to involve all their star players.
Take the Lakers: they do not have a real PG but they know how to play just each other.
Take the Boston: Each one has his role, look at Rondo who isn't the best PG but he knows how to play for the team.
We have the chance to have a real star at point position, we may have the best backourt with Manu, Hill, one of the best Big Man if not the best and a good bench.
What else to ask more ?
At this point I don't see us winning a title without changing the game, not entirely but Tony and POP have to think about it seriously now because time goes by fast.

[ginobili fan]

Dude, they are not as dominant as they were before, we can't have a system baised on them anymore, not we have better players like Richard Jefferson and George Hill, who need to be more involved.

That's what I'm saying people seems to forget all those game which frustrated us during the last years bevause of the same old problems: Tony playing for himself he's not superman,set plays for Tim who isn't dominant like he used to be 4 years ago!!! 4 years man. Tony driving and kicking for players who are reduced to shooting mode...
I don't want to see a 14 million player reduced to Finley role!!
And the whole world knows how to play the Spurs now.

[Riverwalkman]

Dude, they are not as dominant as they were before, we can't have a system baised on them anymore, not we have better players like Richard Jefferson and George Hill, who need to be more involved.
Yes we should be last season's Milwaukee, RJ take over the franchise, Duncan used as a blue collar like Bogut. That makes sense.

Tony Parker is coming back from NT, Duncan did not practice as usual this summer, and they still showed some omens to dominate, I think they just need some time. It's not just about RJ making adjustment to them, but also they need some game to be back in shape, so the progress will be painful but I think finally everything will be OK.

[TDMVPDPOY]

this team cant accept change, this shit has been rolling since what? the last championship in 07

[SenorSpur]

I mentioned in another thread that up to this year, TP has HAD to be a scoring PG for the Spurs to be successful. He still does. However TP was one of the staunchest advocates for upgrading the team's talent level. Now that that has happened, it's time for him to adjust his game accordingly. This isn't the same Spurs team where he needs to get up 25 shots a game.

At this early part of the season, he needs to focus as much on getting the new weapons involved, just as much as keeping defenses honest with his penetration and scoring. As the PG, it's his responsibility to get guys rolling and sense which player has the hot hand. Parker is such a gifted offensive player that his offense will be there, whenever he wants it.

It pisses me off to see a guy set a screen for TP and then suddenly roll to the cup wide open and that player doesn't get the ball. Or see a Spurs player set a back screen and be left standing wide open under the basket for second or two, while TP is pounding the rock on the perimeter. Furthermore, there was absolutely NO excuse for RJ to have had only 4 shots against OKC.

I realize TP has better familiarity with TD and Manu, but Tony cannot just look for these two guys. He has got to adjust his game a bit and truly become the quarterback of the offense.

[wut]

I think having Parker as the 2 guard with RJ, Hill, Duncan, Blair will be a really nice combo for the Spurs with a little time to gel it together.

I think most people are overreacting....parker wasn't passing well last night and it might just have to do with him not being healthy and just not realizing that RJ won't succeed if he passes to him like he does the rest of the team. Pop needs to step up and add some new plays that incorporate RJ.....outside of that the team just needs time to adjust (ie. spacing issues, etc).

Spurs will be fine, there's no need to trade parker, but I agree there needs to be some tweaks made to the offense.

btw, off-topic but I thought Duncan's defense was a liability about 70% of the time last night.

[kace]

tony won't change and i'm not sure about Pop.

Tony will ever be an elite score first aggressive PG and it has always be what the spurs needed (and still is this year IMO).

If you want an elite team conductor PG, TP is not your man. not only because of his mentality, but because of his skills. a passive Tony is half the player he is when he's aggressive. like it or not.

[ElNono]

a passive Tony is half the player he is when he's aggressive. like it or not.

You don't need to be 'passive' to be an elite pass-first PG. I don't think CP3 is passive, or JKidd in his prime was passive.

I agree with you that at this point it's pretty doubtful he will change, considering he was developed to be what he is.

[beirmeistr]

I mentioned in another thread that up to this year, TP has HAD to be a scoring PG for the Spurs to be successful. He still does. However TP was one of the staunchest advocates for upgrading the team's talent level. Now that that has happened, it's time for him to adjust his game accordingly. This isn't the same Spurs team where he needs to get up 25 shots a game.

At this early part of the season, he needs to focus as much on getting the new weapons involved, just as much as keeping defenses honest with his penetration and scoring. As the PG, it's his responsibility to get guys rolling and sense which player has the hot hand. Parker is such a gifted offensive player that his offense will be there, whenever he wants it.

It pisses me off to see a guy set a screen for TP and then suddenly roll to the cup wide open and that player doesn't get the ball. Or see a Spurs player set a back screen and be left standing wide open under the basket for second or two, while TP is pounding the rock on the perimeter. Furthermore, there was absolutely NO excuse for RJ to have had only 4 shots against OKC.

I realize TP has better familiarity with TD and Manu, but Tony cannot just look for these two guys. He has got to adjust his game a bit and truly become the quarterback of the offense.




Good post.

[Zero_Twilight]

I wouldn't change the whole system completely, but I would definitely get some of the new guys "involved" a whole lot more. At least from now until April.

We already know that the dynamic duo of Timmy and Tony works. It's proven. With the amount of talent in the west, it's not going to win us game unless we play unfettered defense, which sadly isn't the case. Kevin Durant made a joke out of the Spur's defense by prancing around the court and dunking it.

Why is RJ only scoring 4 points in 34 mins? This raises a serious red flag for me and I'm looking at this as the REAL reason why Manu wasn't played in the 4th. I think Pop wanted to see what the "problem" was as well. Personally, I think it's a clash of egos and hidden issues with chemistry.

RJ wants to be the star of this team, he NEEDS it. I say bite your tongue and give it to him since Timmy or Tony have nothing left to prove while RJ has everything to prove. We need his strength to go deep and we can't wait any longer for this to happen. Without Timmy and Tony, it was easy for him to get into his groove because he was the first option. If he is just standing around the court, I think he gets bored and uninspired. That isn't his role, RJ is an all-star.

Either start Manu and let RJ be productive with the second unit, or let RJ be the first or second scoring option in the starting lineup. I love Manu being the spark off the bench and he dictates the second unit like a musical genius. So I'd rather have RJ start and get him going as early as possible. If anything, he can get to the charity stripe.

Tony has to take it upon himself and get guys involved more . Even if it means scoring less. He feels safe giving the rock to Timmy but he's got to be more comfortable passing to RJ, and Bogans even. I want to see this team attacking the rim more, and kicking it out less. At least until April when the sleeping dragon Timmy wakes up and teams start to triple team him.

[ginobili fan]

Spurs Basketball sucks !!!
That's it.
I'm tired of this f*cking 2 man show.
Why is jefferson here for?
Why is Mcdyess here for?
it's the same old team with same old and boring systems.
POP what are you thinking ??????

[Johnny RIngo]

RJ wants to be the star of this team, he NEEDS it. I say bite your tongue and give it to him since Timmy or Tony have nothing left to prove while RJ has everything to prove. We need his strength to go deep and we can't wait any longer for this to happen. Without Timmy and Tony, it was easy for him to get into his groove because he was the first option. If he is just standing around the court, I think he gets bored and uninspired.

When has RJ EVER proven he can lead a successful team as the first option?


That isn't his role, RJ is an all-star.

IIRC, RJ has NEVER been an all-star. You don't hand over the reins of a Tim Duncan team to a fringe star like RJ.

Fact is that the Spurs made a mistake trading for a "star" with a nice-guy attitude when they really needed someone more explosive that can handle the ball(even more apparent after seeing how much Manu's degenerated)

[ginobili fan]

but but Jefferson is a good player ? isn't he ? or is he a scrub?

[024]

i think the spurs need a point guard who can shoot the 3. that way, when ginobili or duncan has the ball, the pg won't be completely useless. parker kind just hangs around when he doesn't have the ball in his hand and he is not a threat at all. when parker gives up the basketball, he's pretty much useless. other elite point guards know how to shoot 3s and that's what makes them continually useful.

[easy7]

They can change the game, they can change the players and they can change the coach, but if you get 19 turnovers a game you are not going to beat anyone.

[Hayden.Panettiere]

But I love the non-motion offense when TP is in the game.

[amy020]

The problem is not that we are lack in great players,but that we don't make great use of them. Dice,RJ are both tough players when they were in other teams, especially RJ,he is near 20 ppg even without a pg like Kidd,why he can't contribute as before now,it's the team's system. Just stick to TP-TD combination with others all as role players. The ball movement is really bad.I mean when guys don't get enough time touch the ball,how can they become hot handed? Teams like Lakers with a player like Kobe also have a better system for team work play, why can't the spurs? Also,I think Hill deserve more playing time,even Harriston deserve some time,he played great every time he's on the court. but now there seems no chance for him.
The team is just with enough athletic and talent players, how to involved them in and make the max use is the real problem. If not,any trade is useless since you are stick to the old system without involving them in. No ball in hand, no great movement, no win,especially against tough teams.

[ginobili fan]

The problem is not that we are lack in great players,but that we don't make great use of them. Dice,RJ are both tough players when they were in other teams, especially RJ,he is near 20 ppg even without a pg like Kidd,why he can't contribute as before now,it's the team's system. Just stick to TP-TD combination with others all as role players. The ball movement is really bad.I mean when guys don't get enough time touch the ball,how can they become hot handed? Teams like Lakers with a player like Kobe also have a better system for team work play, why can't the spurs? Also,I think Hill deserve more playing time,even Harriston deserve some time,he played great every time he's on the court. but now there seems no changes for him.
The team is just with enough athletic and talent players, how to involved them in and make the max use is the real problem. If not,any trade is useless since you are stick to the old system without involving them in. No ball in hand, no great movement, no win,especially against tough teams.

Exactly what I'm saying. 500% agreed

[circ]

simply put.. thing is they when they give the ball to Duncan everyone just stands around waiting to get open
they're not moving the ball
and when they do it's fucking turn over after turnover
a slower Duncan, though still effective, and teams learning to adjust after running this same play for fucking years is probably stifling the natural flow that newer players are accustomed to.

[kace]

simply put.. thing is they when they give the ball to Duncan everyone just stands around waiting to get open
they're not moving the ball
and when they do it's fucking turn over after turnover
a slower Duncan, though still effective, and teams learning to adjust after running this same play for fucking years is probably stifling the natural flow that newer players are accustomed to.

dumb post in a dumb thread.

Melo scored at will against us, and that wasn't from ball movement. Nene scored in the post against us, and that wasn't from ball movement.

The best way to create ball movement is Tim in the post and Tony attacking the rim, because defense has to respect them or they'll score.

so basically either they'll score at a high rate, or they'll make the extra pass if the defense clog the lane for TP or make a double team for Tim.

The myth of ball movement from the beginning of the possession is funny. but there's no team who wins like that, as if every player was equal to any of his teamate on offense. you play from your stars, and from that could come the ball movement, the extra pass.

I'm OK with RJ or Manu numbers being called on possession of course. but Tony can't do shit for RJ. Pop could call RJ's number more often though. that's all.

[intlspurshk]

^^Most DUMB reply I have ever seen

Melo scored because he is a great player and he is at his peak and SPURS defense offered no solution. TD is not at his peak and TP offense is good but not great. If you run the same play by only 2 players over and over again, you will certainly be explored unless the players are MJ or Shaq at their peak. What you need to do is to beat the opponent by team efforts such that, if the regular 2 man offense does not work, some other plays involving other players can compensate.

If you have only 2 good players and ask them to handle all offense responsibilities, your team can't advance far (see what SPURS did in the past 2 seasons and what Jazz achieved when they have Stockon and Malone are valid proof). Now the team has 3.5 good players and the coach still run 2 men plays is beyond my understanding.

I would say, before any trade to happen, that the team should consider hiring a more open minded assistant coach to bring some new ideas to Pop & Co

[kace]

^^Most DUMB reply I have ever seen

Melo scored because he is a great player and he is at his peak and SPURS defense offered no solution. TD is not at his peak and TP offense is good but not great. If you run the same play by only 2 players over and over again, you will certainly be explored unless the players are MJ or Shaq at their peak. What you need to do is to beat the opponent by team efforts such that, if the regular 2 man offense does not work, some other plays involving other players can compensate.

If you have only 2 good players and ask them to handle all offense responsibilities, your team can't advance far (see what SPURS did in the past 2 seasons and what Jazz achieved when they have Stockon and Malone are valid proof). Now the team has 3.5 good players and the coach still run 2 men plays is beyond my understanding.

I would say, before any trade to happen, that the team should consider hiring a more open minded assistant coach to bring some new ideas to Pop & Co

i'm not saying Pop has to call plays only for tim and tony. but when he does, and i hope that will be often, he has to let them play their offensive game, which is very efficient. not to try a mythological conceptual ball movement.

Ball movement will come from the play of our stars. If they force things, that sucks. but as long as Tim give up the ball when he is doubled and tony does the same when the lane is closed for an open 3's, that's well played.

[Spurs Brazil]

The best way to create ball movement is Tim in the post and Tony attacking the rim, because defense has to respect them or they'll score.

so basically either they'll score at a high rate, or they'll make the extra pass if the defense clog the lane for TP or make a double team for Tim.


Agree 100%. TP needs to stop thinking about get others involved and attack the basket every time. When he does that things will open for others like RJ and Dice

[ElNono]

Ball movement will come from the play of our stars. If they force things, that sucks. but as long as Tim give up the ball when he is doubled and tony does the same when the lane is closed for an open 3's, that's well played.

That happens often against the good teams, except that Tim is not doubled and the 3's are not open, but contested and they don't go in. I'm not sure I want to die by how good Tony's jumper is...

[Chieflion]

Cool. Forum turns 180 degrees and Parker has turned into the Spurs' weakness.

[ElNono]

Cool. Forum turns 180 degrees and Parker has turned into the Spurs' weakness.

It's not about Tony. He's a great player and we need him if we're to win it all.
But if you're reducing our entire offense to Tim and Tony, and they get stopped successfully, then you have no right to bitch about what the other players around them don't give you.