4 Down... 4 down... 4 down...

[Buddy Holly]

When Tim missed that easy five foot put back, I don't know, maybe you don't run 4 down again and again.

The fucking Mavs knew it was coming and triple teamed Duncan who throws a desperate shot looking for a foul. It is like Groundhog Day now, just not in the good way.

[timvp]

Don't give the ball to your best player.

Good idea.

[SpursRulez4eVeR]

duncan gave us the overtime,he gave us the teamhigh in points,rebounds,AND assists...but he also gave away the game...argh

[DMX7]

Don't give the ball to your best player.

Good idea.

Find a different way to get it to him. Don't just throw it in the paint and let them set their offense. Run pick and roll, a set play, or something.

[Buddy Holly]

Don't give the ball to your best player.

Good idea.

I know, it's like fuck playing the percentages, just run four down and give it to Tim because he's our best player who possession after possession in OT couldn't make a shot because of their defense. Please stop acting like this isn't the first time.

I know it's blasphemous to speak negative of Duncan or against the majority opinion but who cares? I'm tired of this bullshit that always kills us in close games.

[Buddy Holly]

Find a different way to get it to him. Don't just throw it in the paint and let them set their offense. Run pick and roll, a set play, or something.

:toast

[polandprzem]

the spurs will run 4down until Tim is 44yrs old

[rayray2k8]

I think he means that the spurs should mix it up.
Every time duncan thought he got fouled, the mavs went running the other way.
Not sure why he complains so much, he's not a good free throw shooter anyway.

[Buddy Holly]

the spurs will run 4down until Tim is 44yrs old

:wow :bang :(

[TDMVPDPOY]

sometimes the best player on the floor is just chuckin up shots for fts....and hey you aint gettin any calls if those dont look like legit shots

[G-Nob]

Sometime In the future:

Here lies Pop. Devoted Husband. Loving Father. 4 Down.

[narmerguy]

some day...

[Buddy Holly]

sometimes the best player on the floor is just chuckin up shots for fts....and hey you aint gettin any calls if those dont look like legit shots

And he's been doing this for a couple of seasons now, he's smart enough to get the idea that the refs, especially in road games are not going to call fouls on desperate shots he just chucks in a close game.

[Velo]

It seem repetitive, but you give your hottest player the ball. If it had been Blair or Dice hitting the shots, they would have gotten the ball. Tim had more than 20+ pts that point in the 4th. It's just smart to give it to your best player. It just happened to be Tim.

[jj1194]

I agree, I was screaming at the tv saying, here comes four down again....and here is a triple team.....maybe you should pass it now. Either way it was a very good game and it was an impressive effort without some key guys.

p.s. Dirk mentioned in the post game interview that they were missing a couple key guys.....LMAO

[ElNono]

Everybody was off tonight... Look at the end of regulation, we couldn't buy a bucket.
The problem is that Tim simply doesn't command the respect he did earlier in his career, and he will get no whistle. But I'll take 4 down over Mason jacking up a three all day.

[SA210]

Tim should have dunked it and maybe we wouldn't have lost like this.

[Buddy Holly]

Everybody was off tonight... Look at the end of regulation, we couldn't buy a bucket.
The problem is that Tim simply doesn't command the respect he did earlier in his career, and he will get no whistle. But I'll take 4 down over Mason jacking up a three all day.

Look at the first play of OT, the screens for Hill who drives. Then 4 down, 4 down, 4 down. :bang

[timvp]

Without TP or Manu and no other player being aggressive, force feeding Duncan was the only thing somewhat working. The anti 4 Down threads sometimes make sense but not in this game with a crippled offensive attack.

[DesignatedT]

without duncan it wouldnt even have been a game. critisism should go to the supporting cast... and yes that includes everyones dickfest RICHARD JEFFERSON. i dont care how new you are or whos adjusting or whatever... this guy has to score more.. period. POP also fucked this game with misusing his timeouts.

[Buddy Holly]

Without TP or Manu and no other player being aggressive, force feeding Duncan was the only thing somewhat working. The anti 4 Down threads sometimes make sense but not in this game with a crippled offensive attack.

Bullshit, our offensive was crippled because Tim clogged the paint and forced shots. Instead of creating plays for other players who could drive and either score or get fouled we kept doing 4 down because our offense sucked because we kept running 4 down.

[Velo]

I don't think it was Crippled, more like old-fashioned. They did put up 140+ against the Raps.(with no Tony or Tim), so it is potent, when all shots are going..

[jrmp317]

sometimes the best player on the floor is just chuckin up shots for fts....and hey you aint gettin any calls if those dont look like legit shots

It works for Dirk

[HarlemHeat37]

Who the hell was going to shoot?..

Jefferson was beyond horrible, and he has no ability to create on the perimeter..Hill did produce..did you guys want a Finley isolation play?..

Duncan missed a shot, he got fouled on the other..it happens..I'm sure the guy was tired of carrying us to the fucking OT..

[Buddy Holly]

without duncan it wouldnt even have been a game.

How we got to OT means nothing in OT. If Dirk got the Mavs to OT with a shot at the top of the key and then preceded to 90% of the shots in OT and miss them all, it's on him they lost, him getting them to OT means nothing.

[Budkin]

Sometime In the future:

Here lies Pop. Devoted Husband. Loving Father. 4 Down.

:lmao

[ElNono]

Look at the first play of OT, the screens for Hill who drives. Then 4 down, 4 down, 4 down. :bang

I hear you. I was saying go for Dice that had the hot hand too.
But you can't fault them for going to Duncan when Dirk was guarding him.
You also want to make Dirk work on D.
TD got us that far anyways, so I can't complain really. I'm putting this loss and all that wasted effort on Pop for playing Mason even after he sucked ass.

[Buddy Holly]

I don't think it was Crippled, more like old-fashioned. They did put up 140+ against the Raps.(with no Tony or Tim), so it is potent, when all shots are going..

Dude, the Knicks offense is potent if all shots are going... wtf?

[Buddy Holly]

Who the hell was going to shoot?..

Jefferson was beyond horrible, and he has no ability to create on the perimeter..Hill did produce..did you guys want a Finley isolation play?..

Duncan missed a shot, he got fouled on the other..it happens..I'm sure the guy was tired of carrying us to the fucking OT..

Get the fuck out of here with this shit. The play calling in the game sucked and it sucked even more in the OT.

[TDMVPDPOY]

2 on 8 basketball thats fun

[HarlemHeat37]

Somebody just tell me..who was going to create if we didn't go 4-down?..

When Duncan was double-teamed, he passed the ball out..when he wasn't, he went at them..unfortunately in OT, he missed the 2/3 shots that he took in 4-down(1 of them a clear foul)..

Richard Jefferson has little ability to create on the perimeter, he feeds off others..Hill is way too passive..Finley has absolutely no slashing ability at all, and McDyess can't create for himself either..

*NEWSFLASH* PARKER AND GINOBILI WEREN'T PLAYING

[ElNono]

Who the hell was going to shoot?..

Jefferson was beyond horrible, and he has no ability to create on the perimeter..Hill did produce..did you guys want a Finley isolation play?..

Duncan missed a shot, he got fouled on the other..it happens..I'm sure the guy was tired of carrying us to the fucking OT..

You mix it up with Dice, and prevent them from triple teaming...
But we need to move on. This is not the reason we lost this game.

[EricB]

Had Richard Jefferson played more agressively and hill a little smarter I'd agree 100.

I wouldve liked a couple more pick and pops for dyess but no complaints here. Duncan looks off nothing physically that worse than normal.

[EricB]

You mix it up with Dice, and prevent them from triple teaming...
But we need to move on. This is not the reason we lost this game.


Possibly but in OT dyess looked a tad gassed.

[Rorschach]

Agree,

For as long as i can remember, Spurs running Four Down always leads to static play, no ball movement, and losses. Its the same shit, every time I see Tim Post up and shooters spot up on teh arch, i know Tim is either gonna get blocked, stripped, or miss a heavily contested hook shot because every defender and their mothers swarm him.

Spurs are at their best with the high pick and roll using Duncan as the pick. i.e. Hills first play in OT. Penetrate and dish = Championship basketball Spurs have just gotten away from it.

[Buddy Holly]

agree,

for as long as i can remember, spurs running four down always leads to static play, no ball movement, and losses. Its the same shit, every time i see tim post up and shooters spot up on teh arch, i know tim is either gonna get blocked, stripped, or miss a heavily contested hook shot because every defender and their mothers swarm him.

Spurs are at their best with the high pick and roll using duncan as the pick. I.e. Hills first play in ot. Penetrate and dish = championship basketball spurs have just gotten away from it.

Exactly.

[timvp]

The Mavs had a frontline of Dirk, Humphries and Terry yet Spurs fans are complaining about giving Duncan the ball too much.

Unbelievable.

[timvp]

Agree,

For as long as i can remember, Spurs running Four Down always leads to static play, no ball movement, and four championships.

Fixed.

[EricB]

The Mavs had a frontline of Dirk, Humphries and Terry yet Spurs fans are complaining about giving Duncan the ball too much.

Unbelievable.


Why should it he suprisin?

Pop didn't play small ball so they have to drop to the next safe bitch.

[Buddy Holly]

There's a reason the Spurs played so well without Duncan. We need Duncan to win it all but we also need Duncan (and Pop) to adjust the offense to fit the more athletic and younger players we have now.

If that means Tim takes a hit statistically, so be it.

[Velo]

*NEWSFLASH* PARKER AND GINOBILI WEREN'T PLAYING
TY~:toast

[TDMVPDPOY]

that 1-2 play mcdyness throws into duncan and then trolls to ft line corner to receive it back, thats money shot for him...should run more plays for him....

[timvp]

There's a reason the Spurs played so well without Duncan. We need Duncan to win it all but we also need Duncan (and Pop) to adjust the offense to fit the more athletic and younger players we have now.

If that means Tim takes a hit statistically, so be it.

Duncan comes within a two foot chippy from leading the Spurs to victory on the road against a top rival with minimal help but instead he's the problem and holding the team back.

Classic.

[EricB]

There's a reason the Spurs played so well without Duncan. We need Duncan to win it all but we also need Duncan (and Pop) to adjust the offense to fit the more athletic and younger players we have now.

If that means Tim takes a hit statistically, so be it.


Awesome. Who gets the ball, Jefferson or hill taking turns standing at the three point line looking befuddled.

[EricB]

Duncan comes within a two foot chippy from leading the Spurs to victory on the road against a top rival with minimal help but instead he's the problem and holding the team back.

Classic.


Don't forget pop.

[Buddy Holly]

The Mavs had a frontline of Dirk, Humphries and Terry yet Spurs fans are complaining about giving Duncan the ball too much.

Unbelievable.

So you're calling the Mavs frontline pathetic (which I agree with) but only illustrated how bad Duncan was in the OT. Again, this isn't the first time Duncan has gone late in the close game against shitty frontlines and done the same thing. It isn't.

How anyone can defend Pop calling 4 down and Tim throwing up prayers and looking for foul calls is confusing as shit.

I'd rather lose by missing good shots created by running a good motion offense then by losing the way, we always seem to, with that ugly offense like tonight.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Four down was not the problem. Giving up second chance points throughout the game, horrible mental errors at the worst possible moment, Jefferson having an NBA Jam Clutch rating equivalent of three, and Hill picking up that fourth foul forcing Pop to play RMJ at point really really fucked us over. Then when it became a 5 minute game, that missed Duncan tip-in, combined with the no-call on Duncan's strong move just nailed it in the coffin.

Painful loss.

[ElNono]

Possibly but in OT dyess looked a tad gassed.

And Tim didn't? I thought they all looked gassed, including the Mavs.

[Buddy Holly]

Duncan comes within a two foot chippy from leading the Spurs to victory on the road against a top rival with minimal help but instead he's the problem and holding the team back.

Classic.

Oh god, yes, I also want to kill him and skin his body. Seriously now, that two foot chippy miss was a prime example of why they shouldn't have run 4 down every time in OT.

[Trimble87]

Duncan comes within a two foot chippy from leading the Spurs to victory on the road against a top rival with minimal help but instead he's the problem and holding the team back.

Classic.

QFT :toast

[Buddy Holly]

Awesome. Who gets the ball, Jefferson or hill taking turns standing at the three point line looking befuddled.

Yeah, they're befuddled because they suck. That's a correct and rational explanation.

They're befuddled because the offense is jacked up.

[DesignatedT]

AGAIN IMO duncan was obviously the best option in OT.. POP misused his timeouts.. didint call any till it was over... should have used his timeout to refuel duncan a bit before feeding him the ball over and over again....

[timvp]

So you're calling the Mavs frontline pathetic (which I agree with) but only illustrated how bad Duncan was in the OT. Again, this isn't the first time Duncan has gone late in the close game against shitty frontlines and done the same thing. It isn't.

Okay? What's the point? Duncan has sucked against bad frontlines so the Spurs shouldn't give him the ball even when he's being single covered against horrible defenders?

You are using Monday Morning Quarterback logic. Duncan hits that chip shot and this thread is never made. It's easy to say Duncan shouldn't have gotten the ball after the Spurs lose but during the game, Duncan against Humphries or Dirk was by far the best thing the Spurs had going offensively.

[Buddy Holly]

should have used his timeout to refuel duncan a bit before feeding him the ball over and over again....

Bro, no amount of time outs would have stopped a triple team and Duncan killing the possession with a miss or turnover.

Again, play the damn percentages.

[DesignatedT]

duncan was clearly the best option

[Velo]

Painful loss.


It's Relative. It's an accepted loss. Plus some new guys got some PT in Crunch time. That's good for Growth and cohesion. I'll take a close loss the to the Mavs 10 games in and 2 Key players down to Train the New Guys and build team play together.

[FkLA]

Manu is our closer. He was out, what did you expect.

[Buddy Holly]

Okay? What's the point? Duncan has sucked against bad frontlines so the Spurs shouldn't give him the ball even when he's being single covered against horrible defenders?

No, I think the point is change the play calling when it because so damn obvious the current one you're running isn't working nor is it going to work.


You are using Monday Morning Quarterback logic. Duncan hits that chip shot and this thread is never made.

I agree. But that's the point, a healthier, younger Duncan doesn't miss that chip shot.

Duncan Fall 2009 isn't a the player you want gobbling up the entire offense because of his former glory.

[HarlemHeat37]

LOL..

so the only alternative that has been given so far is a screen for McDyess..I don't disagree, I wouldn't have minded that..it's tough though..the only guy that could have POTENTIALLY given a good screen would be RJ, because Tim's the only guy they would have respected enough to give their focus..

freeing somebody up isn't that easy when you have to rely on RJ, a PG in Hill, and a horrible screen-setter in Finley..I don't know if Dice could have gotten a good shot there..I guess we could have tried..

timvp hit pretty well though, I don't know how anybody can disagree..Duncan was having a great 2nd half, he's going against average defenders..he missed his shots, he didn't have enough gas left, it happens..we had no other option..

it's tough to execute when your #1 and #2 closers aren't playing, you're on the road, and your best player just carried you on both ends the entire 2nd half to get it into OT..

[DesignatedT]

Bro, no amount of time outs would have stopped a triple team and Duncan killing the possession with a miss or turnover.

Again, play the damn percentages.



Bro, duncan carried this team on his back once again to force overtime.. you have to be crazy that duncan against humphries or dirk wasnt the best option..... who did u want with the ball? RJ and Dice dont even know where to stand for fucks sake. Duncan was the only reason we were in this game

And, for duncan getting triple teamed.....even more of a reason to go to him to pass and kick.....

all im saying is that pop could have used some timeouts to make sure everyone (new guys) are on the same page.. while giving duncan some much needed rest

[Buddy Holly]

Manu is our closer. He was out, what did you expect.

Weak. We don't need a closer if we play better team ball with the offense.

[Buddy Holly]

And, for duncan getting triple teamed.....even more of a reason to go to him to pass and kick.....

He never did that, hence the thread.

[ElNono]

Honestly, I partially agree with BH here. I don't mind going to TD as long as he's being single covered. I think it's actually a mismatch to exploit. But at some point you know the other team is gonna gamble and double-triple team. That's why you need to mix it up.

Again, this is not what lost us the game. It wasn't also the gimmie TD missed.
I really for the life of me can't fault Duncan for trying to carry this team.

[DesignatedT]

Of course i would love Mcdyess to shoot open jumpers all overtime... DO YOU REALLY FUCKING THINK THE MAVS WERE GOING TO ALLOW THAT? because you call a pick and roll with hill and dyess doesnt mean there going to leave dyess for an open jumper automatically.. fuckin a

[HarlemHeat37]

Also, how the fuck is it Duncan's fault if nobody is moving when he's down low?..

Duncan's one of the best passing big men of all-time..he's one of the most unselfish players ever..if he sees a cutter freed up, you don't think he's going to pass the ball?..

you don't need a double team to find an open man..not his fault nobody is moving..

[DubMcDub]

p.s. Dirk mentioned in the post game interview that they were missing a couple key guys.....LMAO

Why is that funny? It's true. Unless you are so hypersensitive as to infer that he thinks the Spurs weren't also missing key guys, there's nothing funny at all about that comment.

[timvp]

No, I think the point is change the play calling when it because so damn obvious the current one you're running isn't working nor is it going to work.Duncan against Humphries or Dirk with minimal help is something I'd want the Spurs to exploit no matter the situation.


I agree. But that's the point, a healthier, younger Duncan doesn't miss that chip shot.Are you sure?

Sincerely,

2005 Finals Game 5


Duncan Fall 2009 isn't a the player you want gobbling up the entire offense because of his former glory.Duncan is scoring just about the same amount of points as usual while shooting a career high percentage. You are burying him too soon.

[Buddy Holly]

DO YOU REALLY FUCKING THINK THE MAVS WERE GOING TO ALLOW THAT?

When they have three guys covering Duncan in the paint, yeah, I think there's ample opportunity for Dice to shoot.

Three players collapse on Duncan and you don't think we could get a shot off?

[DesignatedT]

When they have three guys covering Duncan in the paint, yeah, I think there's ample opportunity for Dice to shoot.

Three players collapse on Duncan and you don't think we could get a shot off?

i never once saw 3 players collapse on duncan untill duncan made his move already... if dice was open for a jumper, ill trust duncan to find him.

[ElNono]

LOL..

so the only alternative that has been given so far is a screen for McDyess..I don't disagree, I wouldn't have minded that..it's tough though..the only guy that could have POTENTIALLY given a good screen would be RJ, because Tim's the only guy they would have respected enough to give their focus..

freeing somebody up isn't that easy when you have to rely on RJ, a PG in Hill, and a horrible screen-setter in Finley..I don't know if Dice could have gotten a good shot there..I guess we could have tried..

timvp hit pretty well though, I don't know how anybody can disagree..Duncan was having a great 2nd half, he's going against average defenders..he missed his shots, he didn't have enough gas left, it happens..we had no other option..

it's tough to execute when your #1 and #2 closers aren't playing, you're on the road, and your best player just carried you on both ends the entire 2nd half to get it into OT..

Which begs the question of what was Finley doing there? I mean, if TD wasn't gonna pass, what's the point of Finley? Kidd, who was guarding him, was the one to go double team TD.

[Buddy Holly]

Duncan against Humphries or Dirk with minimal help is something I'd want the Spurs to exploit no matter the situation.

The problem is, we couldn't exploit it and instead of seeing that and changing it up (whether the outcome stays the same or not) Pop just kept putting his thumb in his palm and rotating the other four down.


Are you sure?

Sincerely,

2005 Finals Game 5

No, I'm still sure.


Duncan is scoring just about the same amount of points as usual while shooting a career high percentage. You are burying him too soon.

Who cares, the fact remains that I saw the SOS tonight just on a different day during a different close game.

LJ, please answer me honestly. Who this the first time you've seen this in a close game?

[Buddy Holly]

i never once saw 3 players collapse on duncan untill duncan made his move already... if dice was open for a jumper, ill trust duncan to find him.

So Duncan can't pass out after he begins to drive?

He can swing it another player who finds Dice?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Yet another tell-tale sign

spurs EIGHTEEN TURNOVERS to Dallas' Five.

Richard Jefferson have five just by himself. duncan had just 2.

[timvp]

LJ, please answer me honestly. Who this the first time you've seen this in a close game?

Duncan has had bad games in close games throughout his career. Every superstar has. Not sure how that helps your argument.

[DesignatedT]

So Duncan can't pass out after he begins to drive?

He can swing it another player who finds Dice?

first of all it isnt even a fact that dice was ever open on these "triple teams".. secondly, again i would trust timmy to find the open man if there is one.. duncan obviously thought he could take humphries just like he did at the end of regulation and seeing dirk get calls like that one against mcdyess in ot.. there was def enough contact for him to go back to the line that last play.\


and like just posted... duncan with just 2 turnovers

[Buddy Holly]

Duncan has had bad games in close games throughout his career. Every superstar has. Not sure how that helps your argument.

No, not a bad game, this same shit. The exact identical thing. Running 4 down constantly with Tim getting doubled or tripled team, forcing a shot, looking for a foul or getting it stripped.

I've seen this kill our offense so many times, it's lead to the losing of leads and just plain losing in close games.

[DesignatedT]

No, not a bad game, this same shit. The exact identical thing. Running 4 down constantly with Tim getting doubled or tripled team, forcing a shot, looking for a foul or getting it stripped.

I've seen this kill our offense so many times, it's lead to the losing of leads and just plain losing in close games.

without tony and manu it was hard to run anything else.. especially in a close games with nothing but new faces.

i can understand your argument if tony and manu were in the game... but with rj and dice... you really have no argument

[HarlemHeat37]

So what about all the times 4 down has carried our offense?..

I didn't see anybody complaining when Duncan posted up Humphries for the game-tying basket with 2 seconds left..

[DesignatedT]

There is no doubt 4 down was the play to go... there is no doubt duncan should have been at the line that last possession...

again like i said.. pop should have used his timeouts better instead of running up and down.. clearly we were tired.

[Buddy Holly]

So what about all the times 4 down has carried our offense?..

Yes, because that's the point of my thread. I hate 4 down so super damn much it hurts.


I didn't see anybody complaining when Duncan posted up Humphries for the game-tying basket with 2 seconds left..

Because that's a different situation. It's a one on one play against a inferior defender.

Again, not the reason I started this thread.

[Buddy Holly]

again like i said.. pop should have used his timeouts better instead of running up and down.. clearly we were tired.

Time outs are meaningless if Duncan is going to get doubled and tripled and put up a shot looking for a foul.

They were wasted possessions, a time out isn't going to change that.

[timvp]

Because that's a different situation. It's a one on one play against a inferior defender.

Again, not the reason I started this thread.

:lol Uh, yes it is.

[Buddy Holly]

:lol Uh, yes it is.

No it's not. :lol See, I clicked on it too.

My rant pertains to OT and the play of Duncan in the 4 down that was called repeatedly by Pop.

It's Tim's forcing of shots in the double or triple team looking for a bailout by the refs that kept repeating like a merry-go-round that made me start this thread.

[polandprzem]

I had a luck to watch the 4th q and I said in the OT wtf is Tim doing now?

Again and again opponent clogged the lane for tim and first obvious passing lane. Spurs fail to open more passing lanes when Tim is doubled or trippled. It's still the easiest way to stop the spurs even when talking about whole game - all you need tro do is single coverage Tim with double team going at him as he moving closer to the basket. Then at the end throw constatnt double or tripple close the lane and of course reabound as spurs have nobody there to rebound at that time.

end of story

Spurs look so much different with manu out there



btw. again a game in a b2b lost, someone said that the spurs are good at b2b games.

[DesignatedT]

Time outs are meaningless if Duncan is going to get doubled and tripled and put up a shot looking for a foul.

They were wasted possessions, a time out isn't going to change that.

i disagree... if duncan had time to catch his breath then there is no doubt in my mind he would take humphries to the rack for 2 even if they were bringing kidd on the double... or in your case... a timeout could have help set up a pass out of the double team.... the timeouts could have helped... especially with the new guys.

[HarlemHeat37]

So is anybody going to tell me why nobody cuts or moves when Duncan has the ball down low?..that's the belief here, why don't they do it?..shit, according to some here, we have those types of players in the rotation..

Bonner had the ball on the wing, he had his back slightly to the basket..Hairston came from the wing, cut down the middle, caught the ball and went up to score a layup..

It was the SAME situation..

lack of movement isn't on the player with the fucking ball..

[mexicanjunior]

I'm all for 4 down when other players are moving and cutting to the basket...not when the 4 other guys just stand at the 3 point line and wait for the kick out. In the OT, it seemed like the 2nd scenario was happening alot more.

[ElNono]

So is anybody going to tell me why nobody cuts or moves when Duncan has the ball down low?..that's the belief here, why don't they do it?..shit, according to some here, we have those types of players in the rotation..

Bonner had the ball on the wing, he had his back slightly to the basket..Hairston came from the wing, cut down the middle, caught the ball and went up to score a layup..

It was the SAME situation..

lack of movement isn't on the player with the fucking ball..

That's actually by design. In theory, Duncan backs down his defender, and if a double comes, he can kick it out for shooters. If the other team doubles with the guy farthest from TD, then you would need to pass along the perimeter as the other team rotates to get a three on the far side. If the other team doesn't double, then these spot up shooters are spacing the floor giving TD room to operate.

Obviously, it didn't matter this time since Tim was merely hoisting up a shot hoping for a call that it's pretty hard to get on the road.

[ElNono]

I forgot to add. Some teams would rather give up the three and clog the lane. They will only swarm and double if we're hitting from outside. Obviously, they are merely playing the percentages, since points inside the paint are normally a much higher percentage shot than a three.

The Lakers specifically have played us like this for a long time
now.

[HarlemHeat37]

I assume there's a variation of the play, which is simple basketball..we had 1 semi-consistent 3-point shooter on the floor, and 1 semi-consistent mid-range shooter..I would assume there's a variation that included cutting to the basket, which is simple basketball, especially since Finley's the only 3-point shooter that was on the floor..

The Mavs didn't clog the paint on us, they didn't have any defenders that should be able to keep up with a cutting Hill or Jefferson, and they don't have any interior defenders..

Duncan taking the shot was our best bet either way, but I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't have worked out with so much space with RJ/Hill slashing off the ball..

[ElNono]

I assume there's a variation of the play, which is simple basketball..we had 1 semi-consistent 3-point shooter on the floor, and 1 semi-consistent mid-range shooter..I would assume there's a variation that included cutting to the basket, which is simple basketball, especially since Finley's the only 3-point shooter that was on the floor..

Yes there is IF the other team is guarding your shooters on the perimeter. If the other team is instead clogging the lane by basically sitting their played around the key, then well, they're just daring you to shoot.

[ElNono]

What I didn't like was that nobody crashed the boards.
Once TD missed, we had no chance of grabbing the rebound.
It was 3 Mavs against Dice going for the board.
Props to Dallas on actually mixing it up on defense, boxing out and rebounding.

[Trimble87]

you keep referring to Duncan 'forcing shots' against double and tripple teams. I'm not sure we watched the same game. He did force the shots, and they were ugly, but he was never double teamed. Once Duncan forced his way into Dirk the help defense semi-collapsed in the lane, but that is not a double team. At no point did the Mavericks leave a man open to come trap Duncan with a double team, if they did he would have passed out of it. Duncan made the same moves hes been making for 10 years, and tonight he made those moves against a horrible front line. They didn't fall and he didn't get the benefit of a call. But Timvp is right, one chip shot goes in and we win by 5-6 and everyone is talking about how Pop did amazing with what he had and how Duncan played great. Get off it.

[Josepatches_]

Duncan comes within a two foot chippy from leading the Spurs to victory on the road against a top rival with minimal help but instead he's the problem and holding the team back.

Classic.

Not classic.Stupid.

Next time TD has to pass the ball in the 4th quarter so there is not overtime,we lose the game anyway and everybody is happy

[Josepatches_]

So what about all the times 4 down has carried our offense?..

I didn't see anybody complaining when Duncan posted up Humphries for the game-tying basket with 2 seconds left..

[Fabbs]

For as long as i can remember, Spurs running Four Down always leads to static play, no ball movement, and four championships.
4 Dumb led to 4 championships. :lmao That made my night.

Eric_Park
Awesome. Who gets the ball, Jefferson or hill taking turns standing at the three point line looking befuddled.
Why are they standing at the three point line looking befuddled with the great coach Popavich directing the offense?

ElNono
What I didn't like was that nobody crashed the boards.
Once TD missed, we had no chance of grabbing the rebound.
It was 3 Mavs against Dice going for the board.
Props to Dallas on actually mixing it up on defense, boxing out and rebounding. Now here is a person who understands the pitfalls of 4 Dumb being overused. In addition the opponent is almost always in better position for transitioning to their offense, certainly true again tonight vs Dallas.

[Josepatches_]

Finally TD never was egoist.He wasn't leading the team in FGA last 3 or 4 seasons.

So when he has to do force shots it's because Pop wants and his teammates are afraid or not ready to do it.TD would be happy if he only has to pass the ball to win the game but that didn't work in the 4th quarter while he tied the game every play.


We lost in Dallas in the OT without TP and Manu.

That's bullshit could be good when we lost with the Thunders

[polandprzem]

What I didn't like was that nobody crashed the boards.
Once TD missed, we had no chance of grabbing the rebound.
It was 3 Mavs against Dice going for the board.
Props to Dallas on actually mixing it up on defense, boxing out and rebounding.
What's new?

[sabar]

Your other players need to not suck for any motion offense to have a chance.

We practically passed the ball to the Mavs more than to ourselves. That should pretty much be the end of how we lost.

[jag]

haha

what an emotional bitch

Duncan acted a little irrationally after he missed that tip it...he wanted to try and make up for it on every possession after that. Big deal, he and GHill were the only O that the Spurs had. He carried the team on his back the whole game (especially on D). The Spurs tried moving the ball around in the first half and it was worthless...Duncan was the only bright spot on O.

Stupid fucking thread.

[Rynospursfan]

Don't give the ball to your best player.

Good idea.

/thread

[ThaiFanofSpurs]

I agree with many posters here. Without Manu and TP and with RJ kind of having a bad game, it seems like how TD played would be how to get the easiest points plus chanses of going to the free throw line. But he didn't get any call (especially the last one he should have.) Anyway, I am upset with the loss but I am not too disappointed with how we played. We could have won the game and we are still a work in progress. What worries me the most is how RJ is gonna handle the pressure when we are down in the close games, especially in the POs.

[Dice]

Everybody was off tonight... Look at the end of regulation, we couldn't buy a bucket.
The problem is that Tim simply doesn't command the respect he did earlier in his career, and he will get no whistle. But I'll take 4 down over Mason jacking up a three all day.

McDyess hit both his jumpers and a couple of free throws in the fourth. He then hit the only shot he took in the OT. Jefferson shot a three pointer early in the OT and never got another look.

George Hill tried to force his offense towards the end of the game and pumping the ball into Duncan is never a bad idea but he has to deliver. I would have liked to see some of the other guys try and knock down a shot towards the end though.

[Mr.Robinson]

Duncan comes within a two foot chippy from leading the Spurs to victory on the road against a top rival with minimal help but instead he's the problem and holding the team back.

Classic.

This. Sucks he missed though.

[DisAsTerBot]

how bout posting up rj who had one of terry, kidd, or barrea on him.

[bigdog]

If Duncan would've slammed that putback we'd all be celebrating a Spurs win. Don't blame Duncan for the loss. No one else was doing shit.

[benefactor]

So let me get this straight....Duncan makes the shot to send it to overtime and Duncan makes the block that prevents the Mavs final chance in regulation...and you want to piss and moan because we are feeding him in the post repeatedly against Dirk and Kris freaking Humphries?

Please tell me what option would have given us a better chance to win.

[TJastal]

So let me get this straight....Duncan makes the shot to send it to overtime and Duncan makes the block that prevents the Mavs final chance in regulation...and you want to piss and moan because we are feeding him in the post repeatedly against Dirk and Kris freaking Humphries?

Please tell me what option would have given us a better chance to win.

I would like to see Jefferson get some opportunities to close out games and see what he can do. That would get his confidence going too which seems to be a big thing with him.

[benefactor]

I would like to see Jefferson get some opportunities to close out games and see what he can do. That would get his confidence going too which seems to be a big thing with him.
As would I...but last night the match ups heavily favored Duncan, especially with him making two big plays to send the game to OT.

[benefactor]

We're just happy to get to overtime now? When did that happen?
No...but Duncan got us there and he was facing inferior defenders for the rest of the game. Forgive me if I missed it, but what option did you think was better?

[DisAsTerBot]

No...but Duncan got us there and he was facing inferior defenders for the rest of the game. Forgive me if I missed it, but what option did you think was better?


how bout posting up rj who had one of terry, kidd, or barrea on him.

[portnoy1]

how bout posting up rj who had one of terry, kidd, or barrea on him.

They kinda tried that, and it worked to a degree. More of it you say? I would like that. RJ however didnt have a great game. It was decent but not great. Decent isnt going to cut if 2 of the big 3 are out. Finley got a post-up opportunity and converted over JKIDD. Ironically the same matchup he seen last season in the playoffs. Makes you wonder why couldnt he have gotten a few more touches in the post against smaller players in that series. Oh yeah, Parker was going for 60pts. Kinda hard to see mismatches when you only see the rim.

[benefactor]

how bout posting up rj who had one of terry, kidd, or barrea on him.
So posting up RJ on inferior players is better than posting up Duncan on inferior players...got it.

Remember...he had just made two huge plays to send it to OT and RJ currently had twice as many turnovers as anyone on the team.

[benefactor]

The one where hill had an and 1 first play out, or Dice hitting most of his 16 footers late in the game.
Duncan in the post against Humphries or Dirk>>>second year PG or anyone shooting from 16 feet. If you can't see the reasons why then there is no help for you.

[portnoy1]

So posting up RJ on inferior players is better than posting up Duncan on inferior players...got it.

Remember...he had just made two huge plays to send it to OT and RJ currently had twice as many turnovers as anyone on the team.
Like I said, RJ didnt have a great game. I think we seen enough post-ups from RJ in this last game. More importantly they looked for him. Im am concerned about tonights game. I would like to see them continue to look for RJ in the post some more. I would like it to be like the 91' Lakers where they had 3-4 guys to post up and the other guys would either shoot or cut off the double teams. Post-up Tim/RJ/Dice and if a smaller guard is on him, even Finley. And then have guys to shoot and cut. GHILL/RJ can both cut. While Finley/DICE can both shoot of double teams. That way we get some paint points. Also if we play defense the way we did last night, I like our chances.:flag:

[benefactor]

Like I said, RJ didnt have a great game. I think we seen enough post-ups from RJ in this last game. More importantly they looked for him. Im am concerned about tonights game. I would like to see them continue to look for RJ in the post some more. I would like it to be like the 91' Lakers where they had 3-4 guys to post up and the other guys would either shoot or cut off the double teams. Post-up Tim/RJ/Dice and if a smaller guard is on him, even Finley. And then have guys to shoot and cut. GHILL/RJ can both cut. While Finley/DICE can both shoot of double teams. That way we get some paint points. Also if we play defense the way we did last night, I like our chances.:flag:
I actually like RJ better facing up and going hard to the rim to draw contact. I would only want him posting up a lot if the match up is favorable.

[portnoy1]

I actually like RJ better facing up and going hard to the rim to draw contact. I would only want him posting up a lot if the match up is favorable.
Yeah, Thats cool if he faces up. I just want him mid-post ISO and let the defense react. Instead of Doubling Duncan an leaving everybody else to their own device.

[portnoy1]

By the way benefactor, did you see RMJ try to go top-shelf on one of the mavericks bigs?

[DaBears]

without duncan it wouldnt even have been a game. critisism should go to the supporting cast... and yes that includes everyones dickfest RICHARD JEFFERSON. i dont care how new you are or whos adjusting or whatever... this guy has to score more.. period. POP also fucked this game with misusing his timeouts.


LISTEN: Lets all quit blaming the players on the court, who are the ones out playing game and start blaming the coach...... ITS a coachs job to make sure players are in the spots and matching up..... Duncan while he had a productive game ends up clogging the lane(as well as the other 4 defenders) and everyone else stands around watching... Last night i noticed no movement, 2 fast break pts all night that is pathetic.....

Richard Jefferson is having to try to make something out of nothing out there.. And he seems to really be getting fustrated as the games go on...

Spurs turned over the ball way too much and could not rebound which is no new story this season...

When is the Coach going to say enough is enough.. Everyone who says its early in the season still.. I ask you when is the time up for that excuse... Let me guess when it's too late.... 9 games into the season and i for one see no improvement in team chemistry or production......

SPURS Fan 4 LIFE..

[portnoy1]

could not rebound which is no new story this season...



SPURS Fan 4 LIFE..
Rebounding edge belonged to the spurs if im correct 50 to 49. Of note Duncan 14/RJ 11/Bonner 10.

[DaBears]

I would not be happy about the 1 rebound edge.. That is nothing to bragg about..

We got killed on 2nd chance pts (Gooden, Dirk, Jason Kidd) all of which hurt us on put backs....

[DesignatedT]

LISTEN: Lets all quit blaming the players on the court, who are the ones out playing game and start blaming the coach...... ITS a coachs job to make sure players are in the spots and matching up..... Duncan while he had a productive game ends up clogging the lane(as well as the other 4 defenders) and everyone else stands around watching... Last night i noticed no movement, 2 fast break pts all night that is pathetic.....

Richard Jefferson is having to try to make something out of nothing out there.. And he seems to really be getting fustrated as the games go on...

Spurs turned over the ball way too much and could not rebound which is no new story this season...

When is the Coach going to say enough is enough.. Everyone who says its early in the season still.. I ask you when is the time up for that excuse... Let me guess when it's too late.... 9 games into the season and i for one see no improvement in team chemistry or production......

SPURS Fan 4 LIFE..



I can agree with this.. i was simply coming to duncans defense on how people on here could criticize him for his performance last night.

As for Pop i totally agree and he needs to get his shit together fast..

RJ has to be more productive on the offensive end period. there is no exceptions on this.... especially with manu looking the way he is early with these injuries... and that means taking more than 11 shots. I definitely understand the concept that pop needs to run more plays or put RJ in better positions to score the rock but this guy is supposed to be "top 3" small forward in the game today" so he is going to HAVE to create something out of nothing SOMETIMES.

13 pts from him with no tony or manu isnt going to get it done... i will also gaurantee another LOSS tonight if RJ only scores 13.

but then again, its early :lol

[DesignatedT]

Looks like you got your wish.... No 4 DOWN called tonight in crunch time against Utah.... really payed off. LMAO mason LMAO hill LMAO defense

[Josepatches_]

Looks like you got your wish.... No 4 DOWN called tonight in crunch time against Utah.... really payed off. LMAO mason LMAO hill LMAO defense