Couple arrested for refusing to tip waiter, claim bad service

[MiamiHeat]

Couple Busted for Refusing to Pay Tip

Patrons claim service was so bad, they had to get napkins and silverware for themselves

By DAVID CHANG
Updated 12:20 PM EST, Thu, Nov 19, 2009


If you’re frustrated by poor service at a restaurant, think twice before you decide to not tip. You may be in for a bit more than just a dirty look from the waiter.

"Nobody, nobody wants to be forced to pay a tip or be arrested for terrible service," Leslie Pope said when her happy hour ended in handcuffs.

Pope and John Wagner were hauled away by police and charged with theft for not paying the mandatory 18 percent gratuity totaling $16 after eating at the Lehigh Pub in Bethlehem, Pa. with six friends.

Pope claimed that they had to wait nearly an hour for their order and that she had to get napkins and silverware for the table herself.

“At this point I became very annoyed because I had already gone up to the bar myself to have my soda refilled because the waitress never came back,” Pope said.

After the $73 bill came, the group paid for food, drinks, and tax but refused to pay the tip. After explaining the bad service to the bartender in charge, Pope claimed he took their money and called police. The couple was handcuffed and placed in the back of a police car.

“I understand that, you know, we didn’t pay the gratuity, but it was a gratuity, it wasn’t something that was required,” said Wagner.

The owner admitted that the group waited unusually long for their food, but said the pub was extremely busy that night. He said managers offered to comp the food, a claim the couple denies ever happened.

“Obviously we would have liked for the patron and the establishment to have worked this out without getting the police involved,” said Deputy Police Commissioner Stuart Bedics.

Police charged them with theft since the gratuity was part of the actual bill. However, it is doubtful that the charges will hold up in front of a judge. The couple is scheduled to appear in court next month.

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local-beat/Time-In-Prison--70426052.html

[Bender]

stupid business. really getting themselves some good publicity here.

[Heath Ledger]

Ridiculous, news of this story is going to cost this establishment a shit ton more than that $16 gratuity in lost business. They were idiots to even consider calling the police.

Ive stiffed waiters on a few occasions for shitty service. For me its about my beverage service, if you are not checking on me for refills, you fail and I will stiff you, the food can be mediocre or even bad but I won't hold it against the server when it comes time to tip, but if you give me shitty drink service you get shitty or no tip depending on what mood I'm in.

[Strike]

If the service was as bad as they say it was, I would have done the same damn thing.

The whole mandatory gratuity thing is bullshit, anyway.

[Whisky Dog]

Philly style

[MiamiHeat]

Agree... if the gratuity isn't gratuity anymore, and it's 'mandatory', then it needs to be included in food prices so that they can pay their waiters a higher salary.

in which case, people would stop coming for their high food prices.

[baseline bum]

I left 50 cents one time for a horrible waitress at PF Changs in Santa Monica who took 15 minutes to get my drink and never came by again except to bring the bill, even though it was like 2PM and the place was empty. For the most part I give 20%, unless like Ledger said, the drink service is bad (maybe 10%) or if the waiting is really spectacular sometimes I'll go to 35% (for instance, Cheesecake Factory in Beverly Hills never disappoints here).

[PM5K]

It's not uncommon to require a gratuity for a party that size (Sounds like eight people), and of course it's not a gratuity when you require it, but they should have known this coming in, if you don't like it don't dine there.

[JamStone]

The pub was obviously in the wrong, but even when I think I've had horrible service, I still tip. I just tip something outrageously bad like 5-10%. Good service will always get at least 15-20% from me. Great service, more. I don't see why the couple couldn't just give a shitty tip, unless the pub was suggesting they give 15%. If they were really disgusted with the service, tip them $5 on that $73 bill.

Edit: Nevermind... I skimmed the article at first and didn't read that they were demanding an 18% "Mandatory" gratuity.

That's dumb.

[Crookshanks]

Maybe the laws are different in Pennsylvania, but it is my understanding that you cannot be forced to pay a gratuity - because then it wouldn't be a gratuity!

gratuity  
–noun, plural -ties. 1. a gift of money, over and above payment due for service, as to a waiter or bellhop; tip.
2. something given without claim or demand.

I was at Dave & Busters with a group of co-workers. We were on lunch, and my order was messed up and then by the time they got it fixed, we had to leave to get back to work. Because we were a big group, they automatically added the tip to our checks; but I complained to the manager and they removed it.

Waitstaff know the majority of their money is coming from tips - so they need to provide good service. If a tip is "mandatory", then they get lazy and don't work as hard.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

It's pretty much the SOP at any place for parties of that size and I'm sure it was written down somewhere as well. In a situation like that you need to raise a stink while you're getting the shitty service and turn that into some comped stuff rather than waiting til the very end.

[PM5K]

It's pretty much the SOP at any place for parties of that size and I'm sure it was written down somewhere as well. In a situation like that you need to raise a stink while you're getting the shitty service and turn that into some comped stuff rather than waiting til the very end.

Great minds think alike.

[mrsmaalox]

$73 for a party of 6?? The place needed the gratuity to try to make some money.

[PM5K]

after eating at the Lehigh Pub in Bethlehem, Pa. with six friends.

[easjer]

It's pretty much the SOP at any place for parties of that size and I'm sure it was written down somewhere as well. In a situation like that you need to raise a stink while you're getting the shitty service and turn that into some comped stuff rather than waiting til the very end.

Yes.

But. Even when it's written down, they aren't going to be able to legally enforce. Mandatory gratuity won't hold up in court, because it is as defined, an additional payment in recognition of service provided.

With most credit card companies, if you cross it out on the bill and refuse to pay it, the restaurant can't charge it, and if they do, the credit card company will refuse to pay it.

We just had a long discussion about this in our staff meeting yesterday.

But yeah, you need to complain to the manager. And 'busy' doesn't give license for inexcusable service like having to get your own silverware and drink refills.

[mrsmaalox]

Ah so let's see 6 +2 =8. :wow $73 for 8 people?? The place is a bargain :D

[Oh, Gee!!]

good business strategy: satisfaction guaranteed, or we'll arrest you.

[PM5K]

Yes.

But. Even when it's written down, they aren't going to be able to legally enforce.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there since THEY GOT ARRESTED.

Will it hold up in court? Shit if I know but as I mentioned earlier, it's typical for parties that large, and it's regardless of the quality of service so you have to know that coming in and not dine there if you disagree.

[MiamiHeat]

I'm going to have to disagree with you there since THEY GOT ARRESTED.

Will it hold up in court? Shit if I know but as I mentioned earlier, it's typical for parties that large, and it's regardless of the quality of service so you have to know that coming in and not dine there if you disagree.

news flash

Police can do whatever the fuck they want. They have unparalleled authority to arrest you for even looking at them the wrong way.

If you even use the wrong tone of voice, they can arrest you for "Disturbing the peace" and if you protest, then hit you with "resisting arrest" if they felt like it. They can make shit up and lie about it. Other cops will back them up.

The point is, it has to get to court, before a judge. That's when the real justice system gets to work.

Cops arresting you and charging you with something means NOTHING. It's garbage. They can arrest you for whatever they please, then force you to go to jail and see a judge. Only then, do you go home.

Get educated.

Being arrested for it doesn't mean it can be legally enforced.

[I. Hustle]

I've stiffed a few waitresses in my day.

[PM5K]

news flash

Police can do whatever the fuck they want. They have unparalleled authority to arrest you for even looking at them the wrong way.

If you even use the wrong tone of voice, they can arrest you for "Disturbing the peace" and if you protest, then hit you with "resisting arrest" if they felt like it. They can make shit up and lie about it. Other cops will back them up.

The point is, it has to get to court, before a judge. That's when the real justice system gets to work.

Cops arresting you and charging you with something means NOTHING. It's garbage. They can arrest you for whatever they please, then force you to go to jail and see a judge. Only then, do you go home.

Get educated.

Being arrested for it doesn't mean it can be legally enforced.

Obviously you need to get educated, in reading comprehension because I said flat out that I didn't know that it would hold up in court, but that they did get arrested.

It's a lot easier just to not give business to places that have these types of policies, or to go in knowing that the tip isn't tied to the quality of service.

[I. Hustle]

Obviously you need to get educated, in reading comprehension because I said flat out that I didn't know that it would hold up in court, but that they did get arrested.

It's a lot easier just to not give business to places that have these types of policies, or to go in knowing that the tip isn't tied to the quality of service.

YYYYYEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH BBBBOOOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

You tell that fool!

[mouse]

If some of you would just learn how to cook this wouldn't be an issue.

I like to tip according to the service why should I have to tip more because I had lobster instead of fish sticks? Making someone pay a certain amount is borderline communism and you all eat this shit up everyday.

wake up people!

qX_qOaZmCFM

[Big P]

Sure the place offered to comp the meal. What a bunch of shit. Like those people would not have taken the meal for free if it was offered to them. Like Heath said, this will likely wind up being very costly for that dump.

[koriwhat]

i hate shitty servers especially those that think they're the shit.

i had some terrible service the other week out in austin near the lake/river/whatever we were near.

dude was just taking orders and not running food to the tables so he definitely had no excuse as to why he sucked so bad. took him 10 minutes just to get to our table, then he left for about 5 minutes and came back to take our drink order, then left again for a good 10 minutes before coming back to take our drink order again. finally we get our drinks and he takes off again for a good 10 minutes before coming back to take our food order, he never comes around to refill our drinks, food comes out an hour later with all sorts of fuck ups, then he proceeds to blame everyone except for himself.

dude claimed to be a "genius" waiter and was the best. my buddy was sarcastically saying how our other friend loves the waiter and just then the dude pops out of nowhere and asks, "who loves me?" and my friend starts laughing and says, "she does!". well that got our waiter thinking we liked him as a waiter and that he was on top of things, wrong!

we left him a big fat fuck you on the table in pennies. yep what a tip.

[koriwhat]

i hate shitty servers especially those that think they're the shit.

i had some terrible service the other week out in austin near the lake/river/whatever we were near.

dude was just taking orders and not running food to the tables so he definitely had no excuse as to why he sucked so bad. took him 10 minutes just to get to our table, then he left for about 5 minutes and came back to take our drink order, then left again for a good 10 minutes before coming back to take our drink order again. finally we get our drinks and he takes off again for a good 10 minutes before coming back to take our food order, he never comes around to refill our drinks, food comes out an hour later with all sorts of fuck ups, then he proceeds to blame everyone except for himself.

dude claimed to be a "genius" waiter and was the best. my buddy was sarcastically saying how our other friend loves the waiter and just then the dude pops out of nowhere and asks, "who loves me?" and my friend starts laughing and says, "she does!". well that got our waiter thinking we liked him as a waiter and that he was on top of things, wrong!

we left him a big fat fuck you on the table in pennies. yep what a tip.

[PizzaDeliveryGuy]

Don't even get me started on bad tippers. :bang

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I remember when the PizzaDeliveryGuy troll was created. Ahhh, for the good ol' days before the waiting period.

[Oh, Gee!!]

come for the lobster, stay for the tazing.

[Strike]

Just do this....

http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2009-04-11/no_service_30min.jpg

[Alex Jones]

I remember when the PizzaDeliveryGuy troll was created. Ahhh, for the good ol' days before the waiting period.

That waiting period pretty much killed the TRoll forum.

I used to work in the food industry the last thing you want to do is piss of a cook or a waiter before you get all of your food. :smokin

[Alice]

that waiting period pretty much killed the troll forum.

I used to work in the food industry the last thing you want to do is piss of a cook or a waiter before you get all of your food. :smokin

+100

[JoeChalupa]

I very rarely leave no tip. They have to really suck.

[MiamiHeat]

Obviously you need to get educated, in reading comprehension because I said flat out that I didn't know that it would hold up in court, but that they did get arrested.

It's a lot easier just to not give business to places that have these types of policies, or to go in knowing that the tip isn't tied to the quality of service.

Go get yourself some edumucations

easjer said they can't legally enforce this

You said "i'm gonna have to disagree with you there SINCE THEY GOT ARRESTED"

Arresting someone and charging them with a crime is not the same as legally enforcing a law. According to you, every arrest a cop ever makes is legal and legit. Cops can arrest you for things that don't even exist, it happens. but the Judge and the Court is the one who will call them on it and send you home. The courts are the ones who decide, they LEGALLY enforce the laws.

The judge and the court will decide to either dismiss the case and send them home, or whatever.

The court legally enforces laws, not police.

[Heath Ledger]

But if they really suck wouldn't you be inclined to tip even more?

[ShoogarBear]

I've stiffed a few waitresses in my day.

I usually just give them a really big tip.

[Hooters Girl]

But if they really suck wouldn't you be inclined to tip even more?

PM me! :makeout

[LOL texans]

that couple should sue. I bet they'd win

[ploto]

I am a great tipper, but I hate the idea that places put the mandatory tip on a large group. When they do this, that is all they get from me- exactly the amount they added and not a penny more. If they had not done this, the tip always would have been much higher.

[TDMVPDPOY]

so ir ur tipping 10% from the invoice...lol thats like paying half an hr salary right?

[whottt]

Um all the, pigs, in this thread that think it's ok to go out 8 people at a time and have someone bring you food and drinks for less than the minimum wage and then say fuck you on the tip...can go hop in the lake.

If you don't want to tip, don't go eat at a restaurant that has waiters.


You know why the restaurant took up the waiters cause?

Because the restaurant pays the waiter less than the minimum wage and can do that because the waiter receives tips. If they do no recieve tips, the restaurants cannot pay them less than the minimum wage.

So I say to you again, if you go out to eat and specifically choose a place where you know you will have another human being bringing your food and drinks, you are a literal pig if you do not tip without a good reason.

And it is not always the waiters fault if your food is not on time, or your drinks are fucked up.

And it is most definitely not his fucking fault if you have to wait to get a table. That is not a good reason to royally fuck the waiter.
That clearly makes you a clueless dumbass.


And the reason large parties have the gratutity included as opposed to small parties, is because large parties are a lot more likely to pull some asshole stunt like not tipping a person who has been bringing their lazy fucking asses food and drinks for the last 2 hours.


People that do not like to tip, should not go to restaurants with waiters in them, you don't belong in them because you do not get it, you belong in a restaurant without waiters, and should take that into account when deciding where you will eat. Restaurants are for people that want service, appreciate it, and are willing to pay for it, they are not for people that don't and aren't.

[Jacob1983]

These people were completely justified on not tipping. Why reward someone for doing a shitty job? If the waiter or waitress sucks ass, then they shouldn't be rewarded for it. Common sense. Besides, are you honestly going to tell me that you would be generous on your tip to a waiter that was rude, slow, and an asshole or bitch to you?

[Blake]

Yes.

But. Even when it's written down, they aren't going to be able to legally enforce. Mandatory gratuity won't hold up in court, because it is as defined, an additional payment in recognition of service provided.

With most credit card companies, if you cross it out on the bill and refuse to pay it, the restaurant can't charge it, and if they do, the credit card company will refuse to pay it.

We just had a long discussion about this in our staff meeting yesterday.

But yeah, you need to complain to the manager. And 'busy' doesn't give license for inexcusable service like having to get your own silverware and drink refills.

which makes me wonder how the cops had the brass to actually arrest these people.

seems to me they would have told the bar to take it up in civil court.

[Blake]

Go get yourself some edumucations

easjer said they can't legally enforce this

You said "i'm gonna have to disagree with you there SINCE THEY GOT ARRESTED"

Arresting someone and charging them with a crime is not the same as legally enforcing a law. According to you, every arrest a cop ever makes is legal and legit. Cops can arrest you for things that don't even exist, it happens. but the Judge and the Court is the one who will call them on it and send you home. The courts are the ones who decide, they LEGALLY enforce the laws.

The judge and the court will decide to either dismiss the case and send them home, or whatever.

The court legally enforces laws, not police.

these people now might be able to file a lawsuit against the city of Philadelphia for false arrest.

[J.T.]

Gotta back up MiamiHeat here. Friend of mine who is already on probation for multiple counts of drug possession was pulled over and then arrested after the cop found xanax in his car. He faked a panic attack and the cop let him go (also possibly because it was his girlfriend's vehicle). Cop later tried to get him to help take down some drug dealers via blackmail and since my friend was never formally charged and no police report was filed, his lawyers pretty much told to the cop to fuck off or get sued. Cops bend rules all the time to further themselves.

Also they hate being called cops. I always make a point to call them cops on purpose. They don't even know what cop stands for.

[I. Hustle]

Cops? I call them pigs

[katyon6th]

So I say to you again, if you go out to eat and specifically choose a place where you know you will have another human being bringing your food and drinks, you are a literal pig if you do not tip without a good reason.




So, what's a good reason not to tip?

[MannyIsGod]

these people now might be able to file a lawsuit against the city of Philadelphia for false arrest.

There's no grounds for a lawsuit here.

[I. Hustle]

If a server ignores me, takes 30 minutes to take my order, brings me the wrong drinks they start getting deductions from their tip. ALSO I hate when I am rushed out of a restaurant.

[baseline bum]

Um all the, pigs, in this thread that think it's ok to go out 8 people at a time and have someone bring you food and drinks for less than the minimum wage and then say fuck you on the tip...can go hop in the lake.

If you don't want to tip, don't go eat at a restaurant that has waiters.


You know why the restaurant took up the waiters cause?

Because the restaurant pays the waiter less than the minimum wage and can do that because the waiter receives tips. If they do no recieve tips, the restaurants cannot pay them less than the minimum wage.

So I say to you again, if you go out to eat and specifically choose a place where you know you will have another human being bringing your food and drinks, you are a literal pig if you do not tip without a good reason.

And it is not always the waiters fault if your food is not on time, or your drinks are fucked up.

And it is most definitely not his fucking fault if you have to wait to get a table. That is not a good reason to royally fuck the waiter.
That clearly makes you a clueless dumbass.


And the reason large parties have the gratutity included as opposed to small parties, is because large parties are a lot more likely to pull some asshole stunt like not tipping a person who has been bringing their lazy fucking asses food and drinks for the last 2 hours.


People that do not like to tip, should not go to restaurants with waiters in them, you don't belong in them because you do not get it, you belong in a restaurant without waiters, and should take that into account when deciding where you will eat. Restaurants are for people that want service, appreciate it, and are willing to pay for it, they are not for people that don't and aren't.

I totally agree and almost always give 20% if the service was decent. If it consists entirely of the waiter taking my order and bringing the bill and the busboy bringing my food, that's not something worth paying for. That's the same service you get at McDonalds, and no one would ever tip that. If the place is busy I'm OK if things take time, but if there's more waiters in a restaurant than there are customers, then I'm not going to understand when it takes 15 minutes to walk in back and get my Coke and the waiter doesn't come by at all in 30-45 minutes to check to see if I need a refill, clear off a finished plate, check if I want to order desert, etc. That one time at PF Changs is thankfully the only time I have ever received service like that, and the only time I have ever not tipped.

[Blake]

There's no grounds for a lawsuit here.

I'd like more details about this incident and why exactly the police officer(s) saw the need to arrest the students for not paying a gratuity.

It's been proven in court that not paying a mandatory gratuity is not a punishable offense. Again, I think the cops should have told the owner that this is a civil matter and should be taken up in small claims court.

No law was broken. I think it would not be a very strong false arrest lawsuit, but they might get a settlement out of it.....

Philly had to fork out $180k two years ago after settling out of court for a false arrest claim.


Lee told police the flour-filled condoms were used for stress relief.
A woman who was arrested and jailed for three weeks on drug charges for what turned out to be flour-filled condoms has settled a lawsuit against the city for $180,000.

http://cbs3.com/local/Condom.Flour.Janet.2.306611.html

[angel_luv]

I am a hostess and so have many friends who are servers.

As a patron I don't care for the automatic gratuity. If it is gratuity then I should not be required to give a certain amount.


But working in the restaurant industry I understand why it is necessary.

Recently a party of fifteen came into our establishment and had dinner for free ( gift certificates) and had three servers wait on them, but left no tip.
Granted it could have been an error in communication- i.e. the patrons did not realize that gratuity was not automatically included in their gift certificates. And maybe the company who sent their employees to us just assumed their people would tip.
Regardless, our servers had the majority of their tables taken up for an entire evening, for which they only received their meager server's salary as compensation.


It is because of instances like that, that I favor automatic gratuity for large parties.

I dislike automatic gratuity because some servers do take advantage of it.
But I hate to penalize good servers out of spite for the bad apples out there.

Maybe the answer is to cap automatic gratuity at 10%. That way no server will work for no tip but there is still an incentive for them to provide you excellent service.

[Sancha]

If I ever had to pay at a restaurant then maybe I would know what the hell you guys are talking about.

[Dex]

1. If the article is correct, the party did report it to the "manager" (bartender in charge). The manager claims that he offered to comp the meal, the party denies that allegation. I'd be inclined to believe the party because who's going to turn down a $73 comp on shitty service, to then turn around and skimp on a $16 tip.

2. Regardless of the ethics of not tipping (I'm against it), everything hinges upon the definition of the word "mandatory" here. Is there a law in this area that requires an 18% gratuity? Is there a law that requires the gratuity for groups of 6 or more?

If not, is the "mandatory" gratuity posted anywhere in the establishment? If there is so much as one sign, posting, or asterisk of fine print on the menu that establishes this, then the restaurant has a case. However, if so, they should've just gone ahead and included the mandatory gratuity as part of the bill, as most restaurants often will, and avoided this whole clusterfuck.

[Sportcamper]

Dex- Some upscale restaurants & country clubs have a mandatory tip added to the bill…Hopefully Taco Bell will not start this practice…

[ploto]

Recently a party of fifteen came into our establishment and had dinner for free (gift certificates) and had three servers wait on them, but left no tip.

Granted it could have been an error in communication- i.e. the patrons did not realize that gratuity was not automatically included in their gift certificates. And maybe the company who sent their employees to us just assumed their people would tip.

Do you mean at the AT&T Center? I know some people don't really view it like a normal restaurant and think that when someone gives them certificates to dine there, that it is like someone giving them tickets to their suite.

[angel_luv]

Do you mean at the AT&T Center? I know some people don't really view it like a normal restaurant and think that when someone gives them certificates to dine there, that it is like someone giving them tickets to their suite.

Yes, I do. That is why I stated that I thought the not tipping was accidental, though unfortunate.

Although recently a gentleman who also had his meal comped made it a point to ask me if gratuity was automatically included.
When he found it wasn't, left the server a generous tip out of his own pocket.
I appreciated the guesture. It was very kind and considerate.

I think someone should always ensure that the server gets tipped. If someone is paying for people to dine, they should include the tip for the server in they charges they authorize- in my opinion.

When big parties like the one I first mentioned do not tip, I fault the host not the people who are being treated.

[whottt]

So, what's a good reason not to tip?

If they give you lousy service or are rude.


But here is the catch, food being late. drinks being late, are not automatically the waiter's fault.

If the restaurant is busy, I can almost guarantee you it isn't the waiter's fault.


If it's slow, it probably is.


Generally the only time you can be certain you are in the right in stiffing a waiter is if they are rude. Everything else is circumstantial.

Even if they don't appear at your table as often as you like.

Often if you are a small table and the restaurant is busy and your waiter is not around very much, it's probably because has a large table monopolizing his time.

Based on this, those people were wrong to stiff that waiter....because the manager said they were really busy. It was probably the kitchen's fault their food was late.

Also, most restaurants notify you when the gratutity is being automatically included, they will usually have some notice by the hostess stand or on the menu. Most large parties are notified in advance the gratutity will be included, before they order. I do think it qualifies as theft of service, and since waiters work for under the minimum wage I question the legality of doing it for other reasons as well.

[whottt]

By the way, the reason that restaurant was probably willing to comp part/all of the food is because it was their fault. Those people probably held that waiter accountable for their food being late, and it probably was not his fault. Everyone whose fault it actually was(the cooks, the restaurant), got paid in full, and would have whether the food was comped or not. The waiter who was probably working harder than anyone else in that restaurant, for about $5 an hour, was the only one that got screwed and very likely he did nothing wrong at all.

[ploto]

Even if they don't appear at your table as often as you like.

Often if you are a small table and the restaurant is busy and your waiter is not around very much, it's probably because has a large table monopolizing his time.

Based on this, those people were wrong to stiff that waiter....because the manager said they were really busy.

Too busy to get them silverware or drinks??

If the waiter has so many tables that he can not serve me properly, then I figure he has lots of people tipping him that hour and I don't need to leave him as much. When a place is slow, I tip more because my tip may be just about all they are getting that hour.

[whottt]

Too busy to get them silverware

It's not always the waiter's job to get the silverware, especially when it is busy. Usually it's a buspersons job to do it, or a host. The buspeople make the real minimum wage, plus they get tipped from the wait person from their tips.

It is the waiter's job to take the orders fast, get the drinks fast, and the food fast and the check when they ask for it. Whatever else they ask.

But you have to realize, you are not the only table. And if there is no silverware, if no one puts the food up, or the drinks, the waiter cannot bring them to you. And it's not their fault.

Like I said, the only way to be sure the waiter deserves it, is if it's slow, or if they're rude. If it is busy you have no idea why the delays may be happening. I would be willing to bet that these people did not just see the waitperson standing around doing nothing.

He might very well have been in the kitchen fighting for their food, to get it out quickly. And that happens.





or drinks??

Depends on the types of drinks, if they had mixed drinks then it again probably was not the waiter's fault. If it was just cokes and stuff, it probably was.




If the waiter has so many tables that he can not serve me properly, then I figure he has lots of people tipping him that hour

It might be not be his fault you aren't being served properly, there is no way for you to know that if it's busy unless you just see them standing around doing nothing.


The worst time to expect great service is when it's busy. That is when you are least likely to get it.




and I don't need to leave him as much. When a place is slow, I tip more because my tip may be just about all they are getting that hour.

When it is slow there usually isn't any excuse for poor service.

Anyway, I believe you can tell a lot about someone by the way they treat a waitperson.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Tipping in the US always makes me laugh, especially this "compulsory tip" nonsense. How about you set up a decent minimum wage system so that waiters/waitresses get paid a living wage, and tip only for service that is very good or better? Simplifies things a lot. It's what everyone else in the world does, pretty much... ;)

[MiamiHeat]

By the way, the reason that restaurant was probably willing to comp part/all of the food is because it was their fault. Those people probably held that waiter accountable for their food being late, and it probably was not his fault. Everyone whose fault it actually was(the cooks, the restaurant), got paid in full, and would have whether the food was comped or not. The waiter who was probably working harder than anyone else in that restaurant, for about $5 an hour, was the only one that got screwed and very likely he did nothing wrong at all.

so why didn't the restaurant give their employee 16 bucks from the $73 bill the customers paid?

why bother the customers and arrest them? if they were willing to comp the food, just accept the money from the bill, and just give the waiter $16 from it and call it even.


Why must the $16 come from the customers? they didn't think that through now did they. just "OMFG IM CALLING THE COPS"

[Insomniac]

Something tells me whottt has been a waiter at some time in his life.

[ploto]

Depends on the types of drinks, if they had mixed drinks then it again probably was not the waiter's fault. If it was just cokes and stuff, it probably was.

The article says they got refills for their sodas in the bar themselves. So, first they were not mixed drinks and secondly, the bar was not too busy even to refill sodas.

Yes, when I have gotten bad service, I have at times told the manager that the waiter had too many tables. But then again, I have had people who work in restaurants tell me they want more tables, even when they know they can't serve them properly, because more tables = more tips.

Also, I have seen waiters stand around and do nothing. Or the disappearing guy who I found watching the Spurs game in the bar area when I went to get something out of my car.

[ploto]

so why didn't the restaurant give their employee 16 bucks from the $73 bill the customers paid?

why bother the customers and arrest them? if they were willing to comp the food, just accept the money from the bill, and just give the waiter $16 from it and call it even.


Tells me their claim to comp the bill is bogus.

[velik_m]

Because the restaurant pays the waiter less than the minimum wage and can do that because the waiter receives tips. If they do no recieve tips, the restaurants cannot pay them less than the minimum wage.

How is this a customers problem? If the waiter cannot live with the salary he's getting, he should take it up with his employer or find another job.


People that do not like to tip, should not go to restaurants with waiters in them, you don't belong in them because you do not get it, you belong in a restaurant without waiters, and should take that into account when deciding where you will eat. Restaurants are for people that want service, appreciate it, and are willing to pay for it, they are not for people that don't and aren't.

I never tip. I do pay for service, how the establishment splits up that payment among its employes is not really my problem.

[whottt]

so why didn't the restaurant give their employee 16 bucks from the $73 bill the customers paid?

Sometimes they do. Depends on how their cashier system is setup.




why bother the customers and arrest them? if they were willing to comp the food, just accept the money from the bill, and just give the waiter $16 from it and call it even.

Oh I think it's fucking funny they got arrested. It's fucking hilarious.





Why must the $16 come from the customers? they didn't think that through now did they. just "OMFG IM CALLING THE COPS"

Why don't the customers that don't want to tip go to a restaurant without waiters?


You know that you are expected to tip 15% when you got to a restaurant, everyone knows that.

It's expected, you knolw it, you are electing to be a shitty human being and refuse to pay it because no one is forcing you too...

That just makes you a fucking asshole.

If you don't agree with that system, don't go to a restaurant that has a waitstaff.

Simple really.

You see when you go to a restaurant and accept the service of a waitstaff and refuse you tip, you are not only fucking up the system for the waiter, but for the people that do tip as well.

[whottt]

Something tells me whottt has been a waiter at some time in his life.

All through college. I might add it's also easy to tell which people have never been waiters.

I guarantee you that anyone that has ever been one is not someone who never tips.

[whottt]

How is this a customers problem? If the waiter cannot live with the salary he's getting, he should take it up with his employer or find another job.

How about you don't go to restaurants with waitstaff and go get your own fucking food and drinks fatass.




I never tip. I do pay for service, how the establishment splits up that payment among its employes is not really my problem.

Oh but it most definitely is your problem, you just don't know it. :lol

I'll give you a hint as one human to another...don't ever have a regular restaurant you go to, where they know who you are and that you do not tip.


I'll just assure you that it is likely far more your problem than you realize if you do.

You see, if you don't play by the rules, like a cunt, don't expect them too either.

And I'll also say this, I would not trade meals eaten and drinks drunken with you for a billion dollars.

100% serious. Not for a billion dollars.

You have a wonderful day Velik. :)

PS: Don't ever become a monarch either, your reign will be a short one.

[whottt]

The article says they got refills for their sodas in the bar themselves. So, first they were not mixed drinks and secondly, the bar was not too busy even to refill sodas.

Yes, when I have gotten bad service, I have at times told the manager that the waiter had too many tables. But then again, I have had people who work in restaurants tell me they want more tables, even when they know they can't serve them properly, because more tables = more tips.

Also, I have seen waiters stand around and do nothing. Or the disappearing guy who I found watching the Spurs game in the bar area when I went to get something out of my car.



I wouldn't tip in some of those instances either.

Customers going to the bar doesn't mean anything either...Bartenders tell waiters to fuck off all the time, they do not say that to customers.


If you really want to piss the waiter off it is much better to do something like a leave a penny instead of nothing. If you leave nothing they just think you are an idiot, if you leave a penny they'll get the message.

And BTW if they were pissed at the waiter and blaming him for everything, it makes total sense they would pay for the food and refuse to pay for the service...because it totally fucks the waiter and that is their likely intent.

[whottt]

Tipping in the US always makes me laugh, especially this "compulsory tip" nonsense. How about you set up a decent minimum wage system so that waiters/waitresses get paid a living wage, and tip only for service that is very good or better?

Why don't you take it up with the restaurants? Do you think it's the waiters saying, pay us under the regular minimum wage, we love that!

[whottt]

It's truly amazing the number of stupid people that do not realize the power the person bringing their food has over them.

That's not the last person you show respect to...it's the first. To not do so is thoroughly stupid.

You people are so so trusting...and cheap.


Absolutely horrible combination of qualities as far as long term survival goes.

[velik_m]

How about you don't go to restaurants with waitstaff and go get your own fucking food and drinks fatass.

You didn't anwser my question: How is waiter's wage a customer's problem? When you buy some product in a store, do you worry how that money will be distributed to the workers? When you go to the doctor, do you tip the receptionist? Do you tip people at McDonalds? They handle your food too.



Oh but it most definitely is your problem, you just don't know it. :lol

I'll give you a hint as one human to another...don't ever have a regular restaurant you go to, where they know who you are and that you do not tip.

I'll just assure you that it is likely far more your problem than you realize if you do.

You see, if you don't play by the rules, like a cunt, don't expect them too either.

And I'll also say this, I would not trade meals eaten and drinks drunken with you for a billion dollars.

100% serious. Not for a billion dollars.



I really don't have a problem. In my country if a meal is 4.90, and i give a 5 euro bill, i'll get back the 10 cents. That's how a proper business works - they put up a price for the service, i request that service, i receive said service and then i pay for the service on a previously agreed price.

[whottt]

You didn't anwser my question: How is waiter's wage a customer's problem?
Because the customer is responsible for paying a portion of the waiters wage unless the waiter does something to change that. That is how we do it here in America.

You see, the waiter is not getting the restaurant drinks and food, the waiter is getting customers drinks and food. The restaurant is not the one consuming the drinks and asking someone to refill them, the customer is the one doing that.




When you buy some product in a store, do you worry how that money will be distributed to the workers?

Always, it's the kind of fellow I am.



When you go to the doctor, do you tip the receptionist?

Nope. It is not part of the economy of the Doctors office.

That said, it never hurts to tip anywhere, if you see a reason for it. It can only help and serve to make the world a better place for us all.




Do you tip people at McDonalds? They handle your food too.

Depends on if they bring my food and drinks or not. Since they usually don't, no...it's not part of the economy of McDonalds.







I really don't have a problem. In my country if a meal is 4.90, and i give a 5 euro bill, i'll get back the 10 cents. That's how a proper business works - they put up a price for the service, i request that service, i receive said service and then i pay for the service on a previously agreed price.

Damn, will you Euros ever learn to be culturally sensitive? You'd think you would have figured that whole "proper" thing is kind of an asshole perspective after the cultural genocide you spread out over the world during the colonial era.


Still the same...and I tell people that want to follow Europe's lead that all the time...hopefully they'll start to listen when they hear those sorts of comments about what is proper.


What is proper, is do as the customs of the country you are in, so while that may be the way a proper business works where you are from, it is not the proper way conduct yourself in a restaurant here in America.


In America, it is proper to tip at least 15% at a restaurant for service unless the service was poor. That is the way the economy of the restaurants are designed to work. And it works well as long as everyone plays by the rules.

And if they don't want to do that, then don't go to a restaurant that has a service staff. Go to one without.


You know why you don't see any dinging restaurants without waitstaff here in America? It's not because no one tries to do it it, it's because they go out of business pretty much every time.

Shame too...if only the people that don't tip would go to those restaurants they would probably stay in business.



And the restaurants will almost always take the side of the waiter, because they would rather you pay them that money, than they themselves having to do it. And since most managers know exactly what a pain in the ass being a waiter is, they will pretty much always take their side as well, because if they have no waiters, they will have to wait hte table themselves. And they never want to do that. Because it's a pain in the ass.



You see all waiters get compliments and complaints, if they know you do not tip, your complaint will be filed under, totally meaningless. They will understand exactly why you get poor service, and realize it is entirely your fault.

[BacktoBasics]

(n) gratuity (an award (as for meritorious service) given without claim or obligation)


They can bill you gratuity but good luck getting it to stick.

[whottt]

(n) gratuity (an award (as for meritorious service) given without claim or obligation)


They can bill you gratuity but good luck getting it to stick.

Just because everyone is calling it a gratuity doesn't mean it's going to be legally considered one.

Observe:


6. Q. Is a mandatory service charge considered to be the same as a tip or gratuity?


A. No, a tip is a voluntary amount left by a patron for an employee. A mandatory service charge is an amount that a patron is required to pay based on a contractual agreement or a specified required service amount listed on the menu of an establishment. An example of a mandatory service charge that is a contractual agreement would be a 10 or 15 percent charge added to the cost of a banquet. Such charges are considered as amounts owed by the patron to the establishment and are not gratuities voluntarily left for the employees. Therefore, when an employer distributes all or part of a service charge to its employees, the distribution may be at the discretion of the employer and the service charge, which would be in the nature of a bonus, would be included in the regular rate of pay when calculating overtime payments.



That's why they notify you in advance either on the menu or on a placcard in plain sight by the host stands that gratutities will be automatically included on parties of x number of patrons. IOW, it's something the customers are made aware of before they are served by the restaurant and their failure to comply can easily be considered theft of service.



In any case, say they do win, they've been arrested, they will be getting their food rubbed on people genitals, stepped on, rubbed in ass cracks spit on, bugs and otehr matter thrown in it, and there are lot of gay waiters that have things like HEP C and HIV btw, and believe it or not they are the usually the meanest ones in my experience, likely served their drinks in dirty glasses, and it's going to take them a long time to get it and it will be cold by the time they do...by any one who recognizes them.


Yeap...those people really showed that waiter who the boss is.

The wisest thing they can do is stop going out to eat for a while...a good while.


What will be their next act of brilliance, telling the doctor who is going to perform heart surgery on them to go fuck himself?

Always be nice and respectful to the person handling your food, fast food, restaurant, lunch lady or otherwise. It's simply stupid not to be...

[whottt]

One other bit of advice, if you are a cop, never ever ever go into any restaurant wearing your uniform where you cannot watch your food and drink every step of it's journey to you.


*shudder* I still have nightmares from some of the things done to poor unsuspecting cops food and drinks.

[Jacob1983]

In my opinion, a tip should always be optional and considered as a reward for good service. It should never be mandatory. If it's mandatory, then that means a person do a shitty job and still be rewarded. A tip is a reward for doing a good job or at least a decent job.

[Richard Cranium]

Apparently a tip isn't whottt its cracked up to be.

[Blake]

Apparently a tip isn't whottt its cracked up to be.

just fyi...I found out it's pronounced "wo" and then the 3 t's.

[whottt]

In my opinion, a tip should always be optional and considered as a reward for good service. It should never be mandatory. If it's mandatory, then that means a person do a shitty job and still be rewarded. A tip is a reward for doing a good job or at least a decent job.

I agree with everything you said except when it comes to big parties.

You know why? Because big parties take more time, they take up more tables, and they are more work and that hurts you on busy nights.

One table of 8 takes as much time to turn as 4 tables of 4. You see just by the table being there they are cutting his tips in half it the business is strong. That is why I know the waiter did not deliberately delay getting their food and drinks. He wanted them gone, as did the restaurant, because they are a loss of revenue over smaller tables in the same spots. For more work. And when it is busier these factors are multiplied which means the table, if stupid and inconsiderate, is more likely to stiff the waiter.

And if they do stiff the waiter, it represents about a 4 time loss over what he would have made had they never showed up at all.


The waiter does not like you on a busy night big table, he wants you out of there as fast as he possibly can get you out of there. Because you are more than likely costing him money for more work, even if you leave a 15% tip.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Why don't you take it up with the restaurants? Do you think it's the waiters saying, pay us under the regular minimum wage, we love that!

1. If they are paying "under the regular minimum wage", surely they are breaking the law which would be easy to prove given their payslips.

2. As I said in my original post, the problem is having a minimum wage system which pays less than a living wage. If people are paid a living wage, tips can then become and optional extra for good service, as they are in the rest of the world.

[EricB]

awesome to see the anti business big government posters chime in here.

Hi ruff.

[leemajors]

1. If they are paying "under the regular minimum wage", surely they are breaking the law which would be easy to prove given their payslips.

2. As I said in my original post, the problem is having a minimum wage system which pays less than a living wage. If people are paid a living wage, tips can then become and optional extra for good service, as they are in the rest of the world.

Waiters make anywhere between $2.25 and $5 an hour, and they usually have to tip out the kitchen, runners, and bar - usually a percentage of their sales that night. Credit card tips are obviously recorded, and a percentage of their sales is also reported as income because it's obviously hard to tax cash tips, which are up to the server to report.

[leemajors]

That said, it never hurts to tip anywhere, if you see a reason for it. It can only help and serve to make the world a better place for us all.

This. You can easily make someone's day by leaving a good tip. Before I worked in a restaurant, I usually always tipped at least 15%. I now usually tip at least 25%, and my life has been better for it. I get comped drinks/food at bars/restaurants I go to frequently, and the staff is always happy to see me and my friends.

[baseline bum]

Waiters make anywhere between $2.25 and $5 an hour, and they usually have to tip out the kitchen, runners, and bar - usually a percentage of their sales that night. Credit card tips are obviously recorded, and a percentage of their sales is also reported as income because it's obviously hard to tax cash tips, which are up to the server to report.

In Texas. In Cali they make the regular minimum wage + tips. I'm not sure which is more prevalent nationwide.

[ploto]

In Texas. In Cali they make the regular minimum wage + tips. I'm not sure which is more prevalent nationwide.

In Europe they make decent regular wages and tips are often just the leftover change.

[MiamiHeat]

You know why tips are the way they are?

So waiters try extra hard to give you good service.

If they do a shitty job, or get an hourly wage and don't care if they treat you good, then what power does a customer have?

The Tip is the power.


Police should be ashamed they arrested this couple.

[whottt]

They knew before they ate that the bill was going to include the gratutity automatically. Period. It's not optional in that circumstance. It is not something that is paid to the waiter, it is something that is paid to the restaurant. Hence, theft of service.

[Bean Dip]

If the service is bad the tip reflects said service. Simple as that.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

awesome to see the anti business big government posters chime in here.

Hi ruff.

Paying people a living wage is "anti big business"? GTFOH. The rest of the developed world seems to manage paying a living wage and still having big business, why is the US any different?

I'm not anti-big business, I'm pro-fairness. There is a middle ground where both do okay - if conditions go too far one way other the other someone gets screwed.

Under the US system, restaurants are simply externalising the cost of staff (waiters) onto others, namely the customers, rather than paying the staff a wage they can live on. The costs don't go away, someone always pays, and that's ends up being the 15% you fork out. I'd rather the business take care of paying the waiters (rather than pretending that is someone else's responsibility), and then I can tip really good service which goes to the person who provided it if I so choose.


Waiters make anywhere between $2.25 and $5 an hour, and they usually have to tip out the kitchen, runners, and bar - usually a percentage of their sales that night. Credit card tips are obviously recorded, and a percentage of their sales is also reported as income because it's obviously hard to tax cash tips, which are up to the server to report.

And who gets screwed if there's any short-fall in that system? Looks like the guy at the bottom, the waiter, to me. The guy at the bottom always gets screwed, that's life, but the US minimum wage (below living wage) system is an entrenched way of screwing the guy with the least power. Wonderful.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

They knew before they ate that the bill was going to include the gratutity automatically. Period. It's not optional in that circumstance. It is not something that is paid to the waiter, it is something that is paid to the restaurant. Hence, theft of service.

Not arguing the theft point, but there are some other interesting aspects to this.

So if the "gratuity" (which it is not - it is a service charge) is going directly to the restaurant, they must pay their waiters a decent wage (well above the minimum), otherwise how would the waiter survive?

An even bigger question is why call it a "gratuity" when it is actually just a business cost they are separating from their other costs and adding on top of everything (and why are they doing that)? And why 18%? Have they calculated that 18% of their operational costs are waiter's wages? I doubt it.

Sounds to me like an elaborate way to rip everyone off - both their customers and waiters.

[Kori Ellis]

Not arguing the theft point, but there are some other interesting aspects to this.

So if the "gratuity" (which it is not - it is a service charge) is going directly to the restaurant, they must pay their waiters a decent wage (well above the minimum), otherwise how would the waiter survive?

The waiter might get below minimum wage. This set gratuity is only for parties of X number or more... which are not the norm.



An even bigger question is why call it a "gratuity" when it is actually just a business cost they are separating from their other costs and adding on top of everything (and why are they doing that)? And why 18%? Have they calculated that 18% of their operational costs are waiter's wages? I doubt it.

Sounds to me like an elaborate way to rip everyone off - both their customers and waiters.

It's pretty much the norm here. If you have large group, there's usually an 18% (sometimes 15 and sometimes 20 percent) gratuity on top. We get it a lot of times at GTGs ... even at casual restaurants like sports bars.

[whottt]

The funniest thing about this conversation is I know realize why Euros and other International visitors to this country were always such shitty tippers. Because you guys do not have a clue how it works here :lmao.

I don't know why it's so hard to understand, I can understand exactly how you guys are saying your system works, but I know if I were a waiter I would not like it as much as the system that is over here. The waiter makes a lot better money in America with the tip system it has.



Anyway...

All restaurants are different and it also depends on what the State Laws say.

Not all the tips are automatically included in the bill like that. It's usually only on larger parties they do that. That way it can be included in the bill and the waiter is protected.

If the people leave cash it usually goes straight to the waiter(although not always).

As for what they do with it, they usually give it back to the waiter, sometimes they will deduct a pct of it fo the bartenders and buspeople, sometimes they will have a tip pool for all the waiters. So it's not really theft of any kind and there's nothing deceptive about it.

Some places do include the tip on all parties regardless of size, but those are usually private clubs, and those waiters don't make under the minimum wage. They make about 15 bucks an hour plus tips over the automatic gratuity.



To pay the waiter under the minimum wage the restaurant just has to be able to prove they make over 50 bucks a month or something like that in tips. Which is easy to do, since it takes about one shift to do that. But it's those mandatory grats they usually use to prove that, since those go straight to them.


It's also a great deal on taxes for the waiters, because waiters are only required to report 8-20%, or whatever they recive in credit card charges, of what they make in tips, and those automatic grats usually cover that too.


So iow, it pays very well. I personally do not consider the system to be broken.


As for the last part of what you asked, why call it a mandatory gratuity, it's just what we call it, and not everyone calls it that anyways. I think they do usually refer to it as a service charge when it is automatically included but I don't believe there is any law that says calling it an automatic or mandatory gratuity instead of a service charge prevents the refusal to pay it from being theft of service, since it is going directly to the restaurant. I think if it's on the menu that you are going to be paying it, then it is part of the bill.


Anyway I don't really know all the laws but the bottom line is that it's mainly big tables that get the automatic gratuity or service charge, and the reason is because they take more time and more tables.

[mogrovejo]

Paying people a living wage is "anti big business"? GTFOH. The rest of the developed world seems to manage paying a living wage and still having big business, why is the US any different?

I'm not anti-big business, I'm pro-fairness. There is a middle ground where both do okay - if conditions go too far one way other the other someone gets screwed.

Under the US system, restaurants are simply externalising the cost of staff (waiters) onto others, namely the customers, rather than paying the staff a wage they can live on. The costs don't go away, someone always pays, and that's ends up being the 15% you fork out. I'd rather the business take care of paying the waiters (rather than pretending that is someone else's responsibility), and then I can tip really good service which goes to the person who provided it if I so choose.

And who gets screwed if there's any short-fall in that system? Looks like the guy at the bottom, the waiter, to me. The guy at the bottom always gets screwed, that's life, but the US minimum wage (below living wage) system is an entrenched way of screwing the guy with the least power. Wonderful.


I'm not sure what do you mean by living wage. I'm also not sure why a minimum wage bellow the living wage screws anyone. What screws people is the simply existence of the minimum wage: jobs whose return is bellow the minimum wage threshold (and that some people may want to take) are simply not offered. The minimum wage is no more or no less than a way of suppressing jobs. It has no other consequences.

In any case, on average waiters in America make more money than in Europe. And the American minimum wage is one of the highest in the world, it'd easy rank top-10 in Europe (and the federal minimum wage, not accounting for states with higher minimum wage rates). I'm not sure if you understand what you're talking about.



The funniest thing about this conversation is I know realize why Euros and other International visitors to this country were always such shitty tippers. Because you guys do not have a clue how it works here :lmao.

I don't know why it's so hard to understand, I can understand exactly how you guys are saying your system works, but I know if I were a waiter I would not like it as much as the system that is over here. The waiter makes a lot better money in America with the tip system it has.


I prefer the American system. The incentives are better placed for everybody - a colleague of mine published a paper on this but I can't find it.

My experience as a costumer goes the same way: American waiters tend to do a much better service - are more client-orientated - than others in the rest of the world.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I'm not sure what do you mean by living wage. I'm also not sure why a minimum wage bellow the living wage screws anyone. What screws people is the simply existence of the minimum wage: jobs whose return is bellow the minimum wage threshold (and that some people may want to take) are simply not offered. The minimum wage is no more or no less than a way of suppressing jobs. It has no other consequences.

In any case, on average waiters in America make more money than in Europe. And the American minimum wage is one of the highest in the world, it'd easy rank top-10 in Europe (and the federal minimum wage, not accounting for states with higher minimum wage rates). I'm not sure if you understand what you're talking about.

Why didn't you look up "living wage" then? It is a concept in widespread common use:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_wage

and if you hate wikis:

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-living-wage.htm

or thousands of other pages.

A minimum wage below the living wage means that someone working 40hours a week in a minimum wage job still can't make ends meet for the basic necessities. Sound fair? Not to me. Sounds like a poverty trap to me.

As for suggesting this: "The minimum wage is no more or no less than a way of suppressing jobs. It has no other consequences", that is utter nonsense. Minimum wage laws protect workers, who have little power in the job market, from predatory practices by employers. There's been a lot written on the subject, maybe you should read some of it or talk to a job market economist.

BTW, for future reference I generally don't discuss things I don't understand, and you ought to look things up before you call someone out on them.


I prefer the American system. The incentives are better placed for everybody - a colleague of mine published a paper on this but I can't find it.

My experience as a costumer goes the same way: American waiters tend to do a much better service - are more client-orientated - than others in the rest of the world.

I agree with that - in general, I think American service is better than most other places.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

whottt - just one more question. I can see that the system might work better for the (good) waiters as you have described it, but why does the consumer put up with the service industry externalising its labour costs onto them? In such a consumer-driven society, I'm surprised people aren't up in arms about that! :lol

[ploto]

...why does the consumer put up with the service industry externalising its labour costs onto them? In such a consumer-driven society, I'm surprised people aren't up in arms about that!

There are still plenty of people who go out to eat in couples or small groups who tip poorly or not at all. They don't seem to care.

[whottt]

whottt - just one more question. I can see that the system might work better for the (good) waiters as you have described it, but why does the consumer put up with the service industry externalising its labour costs onto them? In such a consumer-driven society, I'm surprised people aren't up in arms about that! :lol

Well it's not like anyone forces people to go to a restaurant with a waitstaff...that's what cafeterias, buffets, order at the cashier, and fast food restaurants are for. And like I said earlier, people try to start restaurants that are sort of do it yourself, you can even cook for yourself if you want, they just don't stay in business very long.

Also as mentioned earlier, smaller groups usually don't have the gratuity included in the check like big groups do.

[mogrovejo]

Why didn't you look up "living wage" then? It is a concept in widespread common use:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_wage

and if you hate wikis:

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-living-wage.htm

or thousands of other pages.

A minimum wage below the living wage means that someone working 40hours a week in a minimum wage job still can't make ends meet for the basic necessities. Sound fair? Not to me. Sounds like a poverty trap to me.


I said I didn't know what you mean by living wage because it's a highly subjective, arbitrary (and disputable) concept. It's mostly an ideological/religious concept, hardly an economic one; and its translation to laws vary greatly in practice. The general procedure is just to equate the legal minimum wage to the living wage. In most economic literature, living wages is not treated as a concept de per si but as the minimum wage paid by some local communities in the US to the city employees. So far, most studies point out that the institution of "living wage" has lead to increases on unemployment among low-wage workers.

I also doubt that waiters in America don't rank at the top of the world in terms of percentage of living wage covered by their salary relatively to their peers. Do you have any evidence on the contrary? I'm not aware of any peer-reviewed research made on this subject.


As for suggesting this: "The minimum wage is no more or no less than a way of suppressing jobs. It has no other consequences", that is utter nonsense. Minimum wage laws protect workers, who have little power in the job market, from predatory practices by employers. There's been a lot written on the subject, maybe you should read some of it or talk to a job market economist.

BTW, for future reference I generally don't discuss things I don't understand, and you ought to look things up before you call someone out on them.

As an academic I have no use to argumentum ad verecundiam. As far as I know, and working myself on the field, the consensus in mainstream economics is that minimum wage leads to higher unemployment rates - unless it's settled at the equilibrium rate (the salary the employers would offer without the existence of a minimum wage) or bellow it, and in that case the minimum wage becomes useless at best, as it's easy to understand (there's a net loss due to bureaucracy/policy costs). There's some dispute on this coming from marginal/heterodox schools and economists, but the only empirical study I know about that contradicts the consensus is the very dubious Card et all (1992).

Do you care to explain your view?

For example, let's say that A is an employer (supply of labour) and B is looking for a job (demand of labour). A needs a new employee and he's willing to pay $x. If there's no minimum wage, B can accept or refuse the job. If the minimum wage is set at $x or $x-z, nothing changes. But if the minimum wage is set at $x+z, what do you think it would happen? Or, to phrase it differently, if minimum wage doesn't cause unemployment, why don't we set it at $1000 per hour?

Minimum wage can benefit very marginally those whose salary would be very close to it without its existence; but it also exercises the opposite pressure (lowering very marginally the salaries whose salary would be a bit higher) and leaves out of work much more people.


I agree with that - in general, I think American service is better than most other places.

Don't you think that's because of the different incentives scheme?

[mogrovejo]

, but why does the consumer put up with the service industry externalising its labour costs onto them? In such a consumer-driven society, I'm surprised people aren't up in arms about that! :lol

That question doesn't make sense: they can't externalize a cost that doesn't belong to them. This is just semantics anyway. The client is consuming 2 services: the restaurant and the waiters' service. It's more transparent and allows the client to differentiate (and remunerate) merit better - hence putting a premium on quality and improving the market overall.

You make it sound like the consumer would pay less with a different system. They wouldn't (at least with the European system). Generally the more transparent a market is, the better is the cost/benefit relation for the buyer.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I'm not going to argue the economics of minimum wage laws with you because if you argue it only on the basis of economics you are probably correct, however minimum wage laws are not purely based on economics. They are based on the power imbalance between employers and employees, and are a way to protect workers from exploitation. If there were no minimum wage laws, those in low-skill jobs (ie. highly replaceable workers) would be paid even less than they already are with all of the benefits accruing to the employers. Why do you think minimum wage laws are now ubiquitous across developed economies - to redress this power imbalance. Your argument suggests that if there were no minimum wage laws there would be more jobs, which may be correct, but what would be the point of that if the people in those jobs were earning a pittance and unable to support themselves? That would be great for the profiteers but neglects the fact that human beings aren't just economic units.


That question doesn't make sense: they can't externalize a cost that doesn't belong to them. This is just semantics anyway. The client is consuming 2 services: the restaurant and the waiters' service. It's more transparent and allows the client to differentiate (and remunerate) merit better - hence putting a premium on quality and improving the market overall.

You make it sound like the consumer would pay less with a different system. They wouldn't (at least with the European system). Generally the more transparent a market is, the better is the cost/benefit relation for the buyer.

When people go to a restaurant they are not consuming 2 services - delivering the food is not a separate service, it is part of the package of going to the restaurant, and the cost does belong to the restaurant because the people who deliver the food are employed by them.

I never said the consumer would pay less, and I agree that transparent markets are preferable to non-transparent ones.

[baseline bum]

As an academic I have no use to argumentum ad verecundiam. As far as I know, and working myself on the field, the consensus in mainstream economics is that minimum wage leads to higher unemployment rates - unless it's settled at the equilibrium rate (the salary the employers would offer without the existence of a minimum wage) or bellow it, and in that case the minimum wage becomes useless at best, as it's easy to understand (there's a net loss due to bureaucracy/policy costs). There's some dispute on this coming from marginal/heterodox schools and economists, but the only empirical study I know about that contradicts the consensus is the very dubious Card et all (1992).


Who even cares if a minimum wage eliminates jobs that wouldn't allow someone to pay rent, feed himself, and buy a bus pass to actually get to work? Should the state have to subsidize a company by providing housing to its employees when it pays so poorly that they have to live in shelters? I can't remember if it was you or Wild Cobra who was arguing that companies should be able to pay workers $4 an hour in the US, but any company that can't/won't pay it's workers enough to buy food and pay rent doesn't deserve to survive, as it's exploiting slave labor. The minimum wage ensures that anyone who works full time is able to feed himself, have a very modest apartment, and have transportation to and from his job through public transportation.

[polandprzem]

whottt made few hours of my day :lol


This. You can easily make someone's day by leaving a good tip. Before I worked in a restaurant, I usually always tipped at least 15%. I now usually tip at least 25%, and my life has been better for it. I get comped drinks/food at bars/restaurants I go to frequently, and the staff is always happy to see me and my friends.

Nope, you pay them so they are acting they like you.
Try not to pay aditional and see if they like you or your money :)

Just like when you go to a nice place with dancing and stuff :) and order a whore (prostitute), you giving her the money and you tip her let's say 28% and she gives you the best blow job you ever had ! I doesn't mean she loves you man.


When people go to a restaurant they are not consuming 2 services - delivering the food is not a separate service, it is part of the package of going to the restaurant, and the cost does belong to the restaurant because the people who deliver the food are employed by them.

I never said the consumer would pay less, and I agree that transparent markets are preferable to non-transparent ones.

and one :tu

How come I do not get tips for my job mr whottt?
I would love to have aditional untaxed money for the things I do. I'm not earning a lot. Waiter is a job isn't it? It's their job to provide service.
Nobody cares about my conditions at work and that I have to get up at 4:12 am to be ready at work before 7am be back home at 9:30 pm.
Boo hoo poor me huh?
But poor waiter service for earning much more then me. (giving the tips)

In some countries Mr whottt it would be an insult to give tip to a waiter. How is that? You would give you 20% tip they would arrest you :)

In Poland it's still new this tip thing. Only because we heve free market 20yrs now. Before thet there was nothing in shops.


And when we are going to a restaurant (not many times in a year) for example some friends are looking at me like I'm a fool or something for giving 'big' tip. And I like to give tips. But it depends more on the bill rather then the service. Service is usually the same.

And I treat it like something aditional, that is something I does not have to do. I do not give tips in shops or drug stores or McDonald's service.
Do you give tips to the cleaning service in McDonalds Mr whottt??