Bruce Bowen: Kobe is the second greatest player of all-time

[PGDynasty24]

Bruce Bowen was asked on the hot list where does Kobe rank among the all-time greats. He said Kobe was top 5 and then said Jordan was #1 and Kobe was #2. Pretty high praise considering Kobe still has several high quality years left.

Very interesting considering Bowen was a teammate of Timmy Duncan

[koriwhat]

i agree.

[jag]

He spent the majority of his career having to physically guard Kobe. If anyone knows and respects what Kobe does, it's Bruce. That being said, I don't see how anyone can justify putting Kobe in the #2 all-time spot.

[Amaso]

Makes decent sense. Most people are reluctant to put a person who isnt retired that high but when he retires in 6-8 years he'll probably be the concensus #2.

[MiamiHeat]

Bowen is biased because he had to play with kobe

There's no way in hell kobe is #2

Wilt and MJ are above, and you got a lot of other guys you can make an argument for.

He's not even top 10.

[jag]

Makes decent sense. Most people are reluctant to put a person who isnt retired that high but when he retires in 6-8 years he'll probably be the concensus #2.

Wilt?

Bird?

Magic?

Kareem?

[PGDynasty24]

Bowen is biased because he had to play with kobe

There's no way in hell kobe is #2

Wilt and MJ are above, and you got a lot of other guys you can make an argument for.

He's not even top 10.

MiamiHeat GTFO. What is your obsession with a player that you hate,get a life. No1 cares about your imput cause ur so far up dwyane wade's ass it's not funny. I like d-wade and think he's a great player,and u dont see me trashing him on every thread

[MiamiHeat]

MiamiHeat GTFO. What is your obsession with a player that you hate,get a life. No1 cares about your imput cause ur so far up dwyane wade's ass it's not funny. I like d-wade and think he's a great player,and u dont see me trashing him on every thread

I upset a member of kobe's congregation

face reality, noobsauce.

[mavs>spurs2]

Kobe is top 10 or 15, not #2.

[Darrin]

If I had to pick a personal favorite all-time great, it's Larry Bird. Then Kobe.

[jag]

MiamiHeat GTFO. What is your obsession with a player that you hate,get a life. No1 cares about your imput cause ur so far up dwyane wade's ass it's not funny. I like d-wade and think he's a great player,and u dont see me trashing him on every thread

:lol

who the fuck is this?

[himat]

Bill Russell?????? I swear everyone forgets him even though you could make a legit argument that he was greater than Jordan. (I don't believe that but a case could be made.)

[Culburn369]

Old Bowen ain't gonna abide the old Spurs Line, I see. jejejeje!!!

[Darrin]

Bill Russell?????? I swear everyone forgets him even though you could make a legit argument that he was greater than Jordan. (I don't believe that but a case could be made.)

No one looks at the defensive end of the ball.

[DrHouse]

I think it's a little premature to put Kobe in the top 5 of all time. Jordan didn't get his first ring until he was 29, Kobe is 30-31 and already has 4. Let's see what he does over the next 4-5 years.

IMHO, if he can get 2-3 more championships this question won't even need to be asked.

[ChrisRichards]

Bowen is biased because he had to play with kobe

There's no way in hell kobe is #2

Wilt and MJ are above, and you got a lot of other guys you can make an argument for.

He's not even top 10.

top 12 before kobe even egts into consideration

michael jordan
kareem abdul jabbar
wilt
magic johnson
larry bird
moses malone
hakeem olajuwon
tim duncan
shaquille o 'neal
garnett
jerry west
oscar robertson


I upset a member of kobe's congregation

face reality, noobsauce.

+ rep if i could, nice one:toast

:lol

who the fuck is this?
he had sex with your momma last night? that's who he is :lol

[ElNono]

#2 All time shooting guard would be more accurate...

[Culburn369]

Good to see an old salt like Bowen shovin' it the Big Fundamental. WOOT!

[Greg Oden]

How can he he knock Bird out the top 5 when Bird is better than Magic?

[jag]

top 12 before kobe even egts into consideration

michael jordan
kareem abdul jabbar
wilt
magic johnson
larry bird
moses malone
hakeem olajuwon
tim duncan
shaquille o 'neal
garnett
jerry west
oscar robertson



+ rep if i could, nice one:toast

he had sex with your momma last night? that's who he is :lol


Zing!

The list is solid...but i have a hard time putting Garnett above O and the Logo.

[Greg Oden]

negative. Bird was a much better player.

[Ice009]

Good to see an old salt like Bowen shovin' it the Big Fundamental. WOOT!

Bruce has got to be drinkin' that ESPN Koolade or however the fuck you spell it. Sean Elliott would have none of that shit.

No way is Kobe better than Tim let alone second of all time.

[Allanon]

I think y'all have misunderstood Bowen; you're thinking accomplishments while Bruce is talking from a pure "Great Player" standpoint.

Bowen knows Kobe playing against him all those years.

Kobe could very well be the 2nd greatest player right now; not in accomplishments but as a player...and who would know better than the man charged to battle him?

And if Bruce is right, in 5 years Kobe will be recognized as one of the all time Greats for his team accomplishments as well.

[jag]

I think y'all have misunderstood Bowen; you're thinking accomplishments while Bruce is talking from a pure "Great Player" standpoint.

Bowen knows Kobe playing against him all those years.

Kobe could very well be the 2nd greatest player right now; not in accomplishments but as a player...and who would know better than the man charged to battle him?

And if Bruce is right, in 5 years Kobe will be recognized for his team accomplishments as well.

meh

There's no reason to argue over semantics here...but as far as face-value is concerned, Bowen said "second greatest player if all-time."

And on the list of "all-time greatest players"....

Kobe isn't 2nd.

[jag]

Most talented??? Maybe.

But that's not what he said.

And even still, i done see how Kobe is more talented than Wilt.

[Allanon]

meh

There's no reason to argue over semantics here...but as far as face-value is concerned, Bowen said "second greatest player if all-time."

And on the list of "all-time greatest players"....

Kobe isn't 2nd.

We don't really know how great of a player Kobe is because none of us have ever played against him.

Just like when Jordan won his 3rd ring, nobody knew he was the GOAT. But his competitors probably had a good idea. Jordan was the GOAT the first day he played basketball, we just didn't know it.

[jag]

We don't really know how great of a player Kobe is because none of us have ever played against him.


Oh, stop it.

[Allanon]

Oh, stop it.

It's the truth. Nobody knows. Bruce could very well be correct and he could be wrong. He probably knows more than we do.

Jordan was always the GOAT, we didn't know until after the fact; but guys who played against him probably knew years before we did.

[NickiRasgo]

Just respect Bowen's opinion.

[ElNono]

We don't really know how great of a player Kobe is because none of us have ever played against him.

Just like when Jordan won his 3rd ring, nobody knew he was the GOAT. But his competitors probably had a good idea. Jordan was the GOAT the first day he played basketball, we just didn't know it.

None of us played against MJ and we know he's the GOAT.
Furthermore, Kobe would need to drop Gasol, keep Artest and a bunch of role players THEN win 6 rings to just get into the GOAT conversation.
I don't know about you, but I don't think it's happening...

That said, I don't need to play against Kobe to know he's going to retire as one of the best of all times...

[mystargtr34]

I think y'all have misunderstood Bowen; you're thinking accomplishments while Bruce is talking from a pure "Great Player" standpoint.

Bowen knows Kobe playing against him all those years.

Kobe could very well be the 2nd greatest player right now; not in accomplishments but as a player...and who would know better than the man charged to battle him?

And if Bruce is right, in 5 years Kobe will be recognized as one of the all time Greats for his team accomplishments as well.

I understand what your saying, but if your comparing player skill, how would Bruce Bowen know unless he has played under an alias during the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's, and guarded all of the great players? You can only go on accomplishments, both team and individual, you cant say this guy is the best because i think he has the prettiest fade away, or has the most moves.

You also say, 'who better to say than the man who guarded him'. Well what about guys with comparable skill level to Kobe, such as Hakeem, Larry Bird, David Robinson, Oscar Robinson etc.... did Bruce Bowen ever guard those guys?

Going by your quote, Bowen's comment is only valid for wing players from 2001 onwards, because those are the only guys he has guarded. Kobe has actually been the best player since then.

[KSeal]

Bruce Bowen is stoned.

[Allanon]

None of us played against MJ and we know he's the GOAT.
Furthermore, Kobe would need to drop Gasol, keep Artest and a bunch of role players THEN win 6 rings to just get into the GOAT conversation.
I don't know about you, but I don't think it's happening...

That said, I don't need to play against Kobe to know he's going to retire as one of the best of all times...

We know MJ is the GOAT, but this wasn't until after he was done. Players who played against MJ personally probably knew years before we did that he was GOAT.

Bruce Bowen is saying Kobe's 2nd GOAT; he doesn't really have to do much more than get a couple more rings for that to happen.

[jag]

It's the truth. Nobody knows. Bruce could very well be correct and he could be wrong. He probably knows more than we do.

Jordan was always the GOAT, we didn't know until after the fact; but guys who played against him probably knew years before we did.

We aren't playing "pretend" here.

No one can speak for the future. When Jordan was 28 and hadn't won a title he wasn't the GOAT. It's only after his accomplishments that he became the GOAT.

As of right now, today, the present, Kobe isn't the 2nd greatest player of all-time.

Maybe he ends up being the 2nd greatest player of all time...maybe he opts out of his contract and signs with the Grizzlies. Who knows, but none of that matters right now.

[Allanon]

I understand what your saying, but if your comparing player skill, how would Bruce Bowen know unless he has played under an alias during the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's, and guarded all of the great players? You can only go on accomplishments, both team and individual, you cant say this guy is the best because i think he has the prettiest fade away, or has the most moves.

You also say, 'who better to say than the man who guarded him'. Well what about guys with comparable skill level to Kobe, such as Hakeem, Larry Bird, David Robinson, Oscar Robinson etc.... did Bruce Bowen ever guard those guys?

Going by your quote, Bowen's comment is only valid for wing players from 2001 onwards, because those are the only guys he has guarded. Kobe has actually been the best player since then.

I accept that Bruce Bowen knows alot more about basketball than I do. So I accept the assessment that he thinks Kobe is the 2nd GOAT. He could very well be right. He could also be wrong. I don't think he is far from the truth.

And a few years from now we'll look back and say, damn, Bruce knew years before we did.

[Allanon]

We aren't playing "pretend" here.

No one can speak for the future. When Jordan was 28 and hadn't won a title he wasn't the GOAT. It's only after his accomplishments that he became the GOAT.

I disagree. Jordan was the GOAT at 28...he knew it; some of his opponents knew it but we didn't.

When we talk about Jordan being GOAT, that includes his early years too. He's not just GOAT in his 6th ring year. He was ALWAYS the greatest, it just wasn't publicly recognized until after the fact.

If Kobe does end up being recognized as 2nd GOAT, he always was, we just didn't know it but maybe Bruce does.

[ElNono]

We know MJ is the GOAT, but this wasn't until after he was done. Players who played against MJ personally probably knew years before we did that he was GOAT.

Bruce Bowen is saying Kobe's 2nd GOAT; he doesn't really have to do much more than get a couple more rings for that to happen.

That's why I said the #2 SG of all time. I really have a hard time ranking alone over Russell. Even if he wins the next 3...
Wether you like it or not, sharing the court with arguably one of the most dominant centers in the last decade and a HOF is going to play against him when his individual accolades are talked about. Not really his fault. But nothing you can do about it either.

I respect your opinion though, even if I don't necessarily share it.

[jag]

I disagree. Jordan was the GOAT at 28...he knew it; some of his opponents knew it but we didn't.

If Kobe does end up being 2nd GOAT, he always was, we just didn't know it but maybe Bruce does.

You're better than this.

I guarantee JR Rider thought he was the GOAT when he was 16 years old.

Thinking that you are the greatest doesn't make you the greatest. And none of Kobe's opponents have any idea what it would be like to guard Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, West, or Oscar. So i have no idea why you keep going back to that.

It's not about what the player thinks, it's not about what his opponents think, it's about what said player has done that makes him the greatest.

[Allanon]

You're better than this.

I guarantee JR Rider thought he was the GOAT when he was 16 years old.

Thinking that you are the greatest doesn't make you the greatest. And none of Kobe's opponents have any idea what it would be like to guard Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, West, or Oscar. So i have no idea why you keep going back to that.

It's not about what the player thinks, it's not about what his opponents think, it's about what said player has done that makes him the greatest.

You have a good point of what the player thinks doesn't matter...I won't argue that.

But his opponents probably do have a good idea.

Let's put it this way.

In 5 years, if Kobe does get recognized as 2nd GOAT, was Bruce wrong?

[jag]

Tiger wasn't the greatest golfer of all time when he was 2 years old. He's the greatest golfer now, because of what he's accomplished.

If you want to use your argument then there would never really be a "greatest." Because there would always be some unborn fetus, or egg, or sperm out there that was the "real GOAT" just waiting to be born. That fetus knew it all along.

[Allanon]

That's why I said the #2 SG of all time. I really have a hard time ranking alone over Russell. Even if he wins the next 3...
Wether you like it or not, sharing the court with arguably one of the most dominant centers in the last decade and a HOF is going to play against him when his individual accolades are talked about. Not really his fault. But nothing you can do about it either.

I respect your opinion though, even if I don't necessarily share it.

Sounds good to me El Nono. I respect your high regard for Russell.

[ElNono]

I disagree. Jordan was the GOAT at 28...he knew it; some of his opponents knew it but we didn't.

When we talk about Jordan being GOAT, that includes his early years too. He's not just GOAT in his 6th ring year. He was ALWAYS the greatest, it just wasn't publicly recognized until after the fact.

If Kobe does end up being recognized as 2nd GOAT, he always was, we just didn't know it but maybe Bruce does.

If you look at certain things about Mike's career that stood out, you knew he had the potential to be the GOAT. For example, consecutive seasons averaging over 50% FG shooting. That's incredibly hard to do.
He obviously ended up finding a coach and a system that enabled him to go from potential to actual reality over the years.

[mystargtr34]

I disagree. Jordan was the GOAT at 28...he knew it; some of his opponents knew it but we didn't.

When we talk about Jordan being GOAT, that includes his early years too. He's not just GOAT in his 6th ring year. He was ALWAYS the greatest, it just wasn't publicly recognized until after the fact.

If Kobe does end up being recognized as 2nd GOAT, he always was, we just didn't know it but maybe Bruce does.

You have your own subjective meaning of 'greatness'. 99% of basketball fans and analysts use accomplishments, individual and team, when ranking and comparing players of past and present generations. Your the other 1%...

Do you agree then that LeBron is the greatest player of all time now? Since he has the best statistics the league has ever seen? What is your basis for saying Jordan was the GOAT before he won any rings?

[carrao45]

top 12 before kobe even egts into consideration

michael jordan
kareem abdul jabbar
wilt
magic johnson
larry bird
moses malone
hakeem olajuwon
tim duncan
shaquille o 'neal
garnett
jerry west
oscar robertson



+ rep if i could, nice one:toast

he had sex with your momma last night? that's who he is :lol

:lmao

None of those guys has more than 1 title. try again

[jag]

In 5 years, if Kobe does get recognized as 2nd GOAT, was Bruce wrong?

If i say that there is a God...and the world ends and there actually ends up being a God, does that mean that i was "right" all along??

Well there's no way for me to definitively know that there is a God...so it was obviously just faith and a really good pick.


I'm sure Bruce believes what he says...but that doesn't make it true. There's no way for him to definitively know. And we won't know till we get there.

[Allanon]

You have your own subjective meaning of 'greatness'. 99% of basketball fans and analysts use accomplishments, individual and team, when ranking and comparing players of past and present generations. Your the other 1%...

Do you agree then that LeBron is the greatest player of all time now? Since he has the best statistics the league has ever seen? What is your basis for saying Jordan was the GOAT before he won any rings?

This is entirely about opinion. I don't think LeBron is GOAT, but I could be wrong. Bruce thinks Kobe is #2 GOAT, he could be wrong and he could be right.

Jordan was always the GOAT because it includes all of his accomplishments and his individual talent and drive.

If somebody saw Jordan playing in high school and said he was the GOAT, they would be correct. They had the correct opinion all along while the rest of us didn't have a clue.

[Allanon]

If i say that there is a God...and the world ends and there actually ends up being a God, does that mean that i was "right" all along??

Well there's no way for me to definitively know that there is a God...so it was obviously just faith and a really good pick.


I'm sure Bruce believes what he says...but that doesn't make it true. There's no way for him to definitively know. And we won't know till we get there.

That is my point; we don't know if Bruce is correct or not. He believes one way and we believe in another. Whose to say who is right and wrong?

We will eventually know if Bruce was right all along.

[jag]

That is my point; we don't know if Bruce is correct or not. He believes one way and we believe in another. Whose to say who is right and wrong?

We will eventually know if Bruce was right all along.

The whole point of my post was that Bruce has no idea how Kobe will be remembered 50 years from now.

He can only attest to right now....and as of right now, he's wrong.

[lefty]

Olajuwooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooon

[Bandwagon Fan]

lol at whoever put Duncan before Kobe.

[ginobili's bald spot]

:lol Bowen just cock slapped all of the spurfans on this site.

[Chieflion]

:lol Bowen just cock slapped all of the spurfans on this site.
Bowen just gave the most skilled player some credit. Can't say I agree with his idea of 2nd greatest player but Kobe is right up there with the best of them.

[leemajors]

There was an interesting discussion about Kobe on PTI yesterday. Wilbon had Kobe as the 6th best Laker of all time, behind Magic, Kareem, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, and George Mikan. Kornheiser had him 5th, ahead of Mikan.

[Chieflion]

There was an interesting discussion about Kobe on PTI yesterday. Wilbon had Kobe as the 6th best Laker of all time, behind Magic, Kareem, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, and George Mikan. Kornheiser had him 5th, ahead of Mikan.
Elgin Baylor practically never did shit with the Lakers. Sad case. Never won a championship. Excellent player though. I think Kobe is ahead of Baylor and Mikan, maybe even West.

[Culburn369]

:lol Bowen just cock slapped all of the spurfans on this site.

Amen. After all they've been thru in this short season and now Bowen pulls this stunt.

Manoshevitz.

[leemajors]

Elgin Baylor practically never did shit with the Lakers. Sad case. Never won a championship. Excellent player though. I think Kobe is ahead of Baylor and Mikan, maybe even West.

4th best all time scoring average at 27.4, averaged 13.5 rebounds for his career only being 6'5", and went to the finals seven times. He also averaged 26.4 PPG in the finals (44 games), and averaged 27.0 PPG for the playoffs in general (134 games). He also holds the scoring record for a finals game at 61 points - How did he never do shit with the Lakers?

[Culburn369]

4th best all time scoring average at 27.4, averaged 13.5 rebounds for his career only being 6'5", and went to the finals seven times. He also averaged 26.4 PPG in the finals (44 games), and averaged 27.0 PPG for the playoffs in general (134 games). He also holds the scoring record for a finals game at 61 points - How did he never do shit with the Lakers?

The sight of him & West huddled in a corner (Wilt had fled) with the Celtics throwing dirty towels at them is daunting.

[Chieflion]

4th best all time scoring average at 27.4, averaged 13.5 rebounds for his career only being 6'5", and went to the finals seven times. He also averaged 26.4 PPG in the finals (44 games), and averaged 27.0 PPG for the playoffs in general (134 games). He also holds the scoring record for a finals game at 61 points - How did he never do shit with the Lakers?
The Lakers franchise's ultimate goal is the championship. How do you get to the finals 7 times and not even win once is just incomprehensible. 13.5 rebounds? Do you know what the ridiculous pace of the game was in the 60s? In this era, the highest rebounding average is like 14.2 for a season. Baylor was also one of the most athletic forwards, you heard me, forward, in his era with the centers at around 6 foot 8. In this era, you are 6 foot 5, you would most probably be a guard. No doubt the guy is an excellent player, but if you are thinking he would average 13.5 rebounds in the 80s or 90s and the current decade does not make sense. However, I will not be suprised if he gets 9 rebounds a game or something. Nothing against Baylor. He is a great player whose accomplishment in the league was diminished cause he had no championships to show for it.

[ginobili's bald spot]

The Lakers franchise's ultimate goal is the championship. How do you get to the finals 7 times and not even win once is just incomprehensible. 13.5 rebounds? Do you know what the ridiculous pace of the game was in the 60s? In this era, the highest rebounding average is like 14.2 for a season. Baylor was also one of the most athletic forwards, you heard me, forward, in his era with the centers at around 6 foot 8. In this era, you are 6 foot 5, you would most probably be a guard. No doubt the guy is an excellent player, but if you are thinking he would average 13.5 rebounds in the 80s or 90s and the current decade does not make sense. Nothing against Baylor. He is a great player whose accomplishment in the league was diminished cause he had no championships to show for it.

And even further diminished by the fact that they won a championship as soon as he retired IIRC.

Very good post btw.

[Culburn369]

The Lakers franchise's ultimate goal is the championship. How do you get to the finals 7 times and not even win once is just incomprehensible.

Yer huddled in a corner with West with your hands over your eyes. Jabbar was gonna do the same gd thing until Magic took the whole bunch (West in a seer sucker suit now) kickin' & screamin' (Magic included) and burned off 5 before they could get him stopped.

[leemajors]

The Lakers franchise's ultimate goal is the championship. How do you get to the finals 7 times and not even win once is just incomprehensible. 13.5 rebounds? Do you know what the ridiculous pace of the game was in the 60s? In this era, the highest rebounding average is like 14.2 for a season. Baylor was also one of the most athletic forwards, you heard me, forward, in his era with the centers at around 6 foot 8. In this era, you are 6 foot 5, you would most probably be a guard. No doubt the guy is an excellent player, but if you are thinking he would average 13.5 rebounds in the 80s or 90s and the current decade does not make sense. Nothing against Baylor. He is a great player whose accomplishment in the league was diminished cause he had no championships to show for it.

They are insane numbers regardless of the era. It's not his fault they were going up against Russell's Celtics. It's not like Baylor wasn't tearing shit up in the playoffs and finals.

[JamStone]

The Lakers franchise's ultimate goal is the championship. How do you get to the finals 7 times and not even win once is just incomprehensible. 13.5 rebounds? Do you know what the ridiculous pace of the game was in the 60s? In this era, the highest rebounding average is like 14.2 for a season. Baylor was also one of the most athletic forwards, you heard me, forward, in his era with the centers at around 6 foot 8. In this era, you are 6 foot 5, you would most probably be a guard. No doubt the guy is an excellent player, but if you are thinking he would average 13.5 rebounds in the 80s or 90s and the current decade does not make sense. However, I will not be suprised if he gets 9 rebounds a game or something. Nothing against Baylor. He is a great player whose accomplishment in the league was diminished cause he had no championships to show for it.

Even though 6-foot-4 Charles Barkley was pulling down 13 rpg in the 80s, or 6-foot-7 small forward Dennis Rodman averaged 15-19 rebounds a game for 7 years straight in the 1990s?

I don't disagree that there is some era adjustment in Baylor's numbers, but it wasn't just about 13 rpg. He averaged over 18 rpg twice in his career. His first four seasons, he averaged at least 15 rpg. I think you may give him too little credit. In today's NBA, he'd probably have to play a hybrid wing player, but he'd still probably be more of a small forward than a 2-guard. He'd still spend time rebounding. And, he'd probably be listed at 6'7 instead of 6'5.

Tough to criticize him for not winning a title when his prime years were up against Bill Russell's Celtics. Pretty much no one else in the league was winning titles except for the Celtics during Baylor's career.

[Culburn369]

Tough to criticize him for not winning a title when his prime years were up against Bill Russell's Celtics. Pretty much no one else in the league was winning titles except for the Celtics during Baylor's career.

Chronological failure is not to be admired.

[JamStone]

Cool Cul.

You should at least sympathize even if you don't admire.

You would know the feeling based on your post history here on SpursTalk.

[ginobili's bald spot]

Tough to criticize him for not winning a title when his prime years were up against Bill Russell's Celtics.

I disagree. Not when he lost in the finals 8 TIMES (and not only to the Celtics) With some of the most loaded teams in NBA history. He couldn't win a championship playing with Jerry West, Wilt Chamberlain and Gail Goodrich. On top of that, then the Lakers finally break through and win as soon as he retires. That doesn't exactly help his case.

[nkdlunch]

sad thing is Kobe is not even the 1st or 2nd best player this season

[DPG21920]

sad thing is Kobe is not even the 1st or 2nd best player this season

Now that is just silly. 1) He is pretty damn close. 2) Tim Duncan is no where to be found on that list of players this season, but does that diminish where he ranks overall?

[JamStone]

I disagree. Not when he lost in the finals 8 TIMES (and not only to the Celtics) With some of the most loaded teams in NBA history. He couldn't win a championship playing with Jerry West, Wilt Chamberlain and Gail Goodrich. On top of that, then the Lakers finally break through and win as soon as he retires. That doesn't exactly help his case.

Elgin Baylor played in 7 NBA Finals. He was injured for the 1965 NBA Finals.

He also faced the Boston Celtics 6 out of those 7 times. The only other team the Lakers faced in the Finals with Elgin Baylor on the team was the New York Knicks in 1970 when Elgin Baylor was 35 years old, and he still put up 19/10.

He only played with Wilt Chamberlain in two NBA Finals, again when Elgin was already 34 and 35 years old, and Wilt was scoring in the teens, not the dominating 35+ PPG he was earlier in his career.

Elgin Baylor also led his 1958-59 33-39 Minneapolis Lakers to the NBA Finals.

You see, you want to harp on the 8 times the Lakers went to the NBA Finals and lost without understanding why they went so many times. The league was a 9-12 team league for much of Elgin Baylor's career. There was one great team, and that was the Celtics. A bad team could make it to the Finals, obviously when you look at that record of the 1958-59 Lakers team at 33-39 and making it to the Finals. Shit, the following year, the Lakers went 25-50 and made it to the division finals (equivalent to conference finals now). If you actually understood that, you wouldn't bash on Elgin Baylor's inability to win a title nearly as much.

In his prime, for example in 1961-62, he averaged 39 PPG and 18 RPG for the entire playoffs. You're going to fault him for not beating the Celtics in the Finals when he's putting up those kinds of numbers? The following year, he put up 33/14 in the playoffs. Yeah, must have been Elgin's fault.

Are you sure you're a Laker fan? Do you know any Laker history predating Shaq-Kobe?

[JamStone]

sad thing is Kobe is not even the 1st or 2nd best player this season

Brandon Jennings best player of this past decade!!!!

[Killakobe81]

I upset a member of kobe's congregation

face reality, noobsauce.

Many already put Duncan in top 10 all time ...so it's not ridiculous ...but i would still put him behind MJ, Kobe and Magic ...
Those of you talking wilt and Russell are not old enough (most) to have seen them play so you guys are foolish. I ALWAYs in these debates start in the 1980's since that iswhen I start watching stats wise Wilt is the greatesteven over MJ but I never saw it ...so how can I say he is greater?

[Killakobe81]

sad thing is Kobe is not even the 1st or 2nd best player this season

This puts your IQ level on par with your sig picture ...

[Killakobe81]

There was an interesting discussion about Kobe on PTI yesterday. Wilbon had Kobe as the 6th best Laker of all time, behind Magic, Kareem, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, and George Mikan. Kornheiser had him 5th, ahead of Mikan.

I have no problems with this to be this far already is great but I think with perpective he will have the stats, rings and longevity pretty much be considered the best. Those that loved or grew up in the 60's, 70's or 80'sWill argue west, Baylor Kareem or Magic . Magic is STILL my all-time fave Laker ... but EVEN i can't argue that Kobe may in the end be greater ....but IMHO not yet. That said if I was going all-time top 5 by position he does not make it. It is still ... Kareem, Duncan, Bird Jordan and Magic. If positions are eliminated then the best I have ever seem are Kareem,Jordan, Magic Bryant and Hakeem with Bird and Duncan close behind. Shaq one notch below ...

[F_U_Buddy]

I have no problems with this to be this far already is great but I think with perpective he will have the stats, rings and longevity pretty much be considered the best. Those that loved or grew up in the 60's, 70's or 80'sWill argue west, Baylor Kareem or Magic . Magic is STILL my all-time fave Laker ... but EVEN i can't argue that Kobe may in the end be greater ....but IMHO not yet. That said if I was going all-time top 5 by position he does not make it. It is still ... Kareem, Duncan, Bird Jordan and Magic. If positions are eliminated then the best I have ever seem are Kareem,Jordan, Magic Bryant and Hakeem with Bird and Duncan close behind. Shaq one notch below ...


u may wanna replace Duncan with Hakeem at forward...

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a68/Koolbreezey/nashmvp3ws8ju.jpg

[dbreiden83080]

Magic dominated Bird in college, and the pros.

Magic's teams were better and Bird did get him once in the finals..

[dbreiden83080]

And Kobe is still well behind Duncan on the All time list.

Duncan never played with a legendary all time center during that center's best years of his career. If D-Rob and Timmy played during D-Rob's prime for 5 or 6 years they would have got another 4 rings easy..

Duncan's got 4 rings and was the man on all 4 teams..

Duncan never was at the center of a team that missed the playoffs

Never got his ass kicked in the NBA finals

Kobe's great, Duncan is still better all time..

[spursfan09]

Bowen should thank Kobe for his rings... Especially that one in 03.

[dbreiden83080]

Sit tight on this one, its coming.

Page long reply on Kobe excuses for that one no thanks..

[21_Blessings]

Bowen should thank Kobe for his rings... Especially that one in 03.

Actually he should be thanking Horry for that 03 one. It was as if he was already playing for the Spurs that series.

[spursfan09]

Actually he should be thanking Horry for that 03 one. It was as if he was already playing for the Spurs that series.

Tis true!!

[carrao45]

Elgin Baylor practically never did shit with the Lakers. Sad case. Never won a championship. Excellent player though. I think Kobe is ahead of Baylor and Mikan, maybe even West.

Starting the game after Baylor retired, the Lakers started that 33 game winning streak.

And Baylor was not greater than Kobe. Neither was Mikan (Dude shot a lower percentage AS A CENTER).


And as great as West was: 4-6 in the Finals (4 Titles)>>>>1-8 in Finals (1 Title)

[Chieflion]

Starting the game after Baylor retired, the Lakers started that 33 game winning streak.

And Baylor was not greater than Kobe. Neither was Mikan (Dude shot a lower percentage AS A CENTER).


And as great as West was: 4-6 in the Finals (4 Titles)>>>>1-8 in Finals (1 Title)
Yep. I had the book published after the 2003 NBA finals on "Who's best, who's greatest in basketball". Simply put, him not winning championships is one thing, but it really does not help his case when the team pulled off the longest winning streak in pro sports, not just basketball, and went on to steamroll to the championship that year.

I think Jamstone also mentioned about Charles Barkley and Dennis Rodman's rebounding ability to compare to Baylor. I believe Rodman played small forward at the start of his career. However, again, the pace of the game was too different, and the athletes, height of the players, physical talent, etc. There are too many variables to account for. I have to acknowledge the fact he was probably the best rebounding small forward of his generation which was why I said he could probably grab 9 rebounds a game for his career in average and break 10 a few times in his career.

[ginobili's bald spot]

He also faced the Boston Celtics 6 out of those 7 times. The only other team the Lakers faced in the Finals with Elgin Baylor on the team was the New York Knicks in 1970 when Elgin Baylor was 35 years old and he still put up 19/10.

None of these excuses change or contradict anything that I said. But thanks for spouting off random facts.





He only played with Wilt Chamberlain in two NBA Finals, again when Elgin was already 34 and 35 years old, and Wilt was scoring in the teens, not the dominating 35+ PPG he was earlier in his career.


If you knew nearly as much as you pretended, you would know that Wilt was averaging 20 & 20 during the years he and Baylor played together. It wasn't until the Lakers won the title in 71-72 that Wilt averaged in the teens.


So either:

A. You are an intellectually dishonest piece of shit

or

B. You have no fucking clue what you are talking about, while you rip me for supposedly not knowing Lakers history. Which not only makes you dumb but also a hypocrite.

Here are the FACTS which you unsuccessfully attempted to obfuscate:


-Elgin Baylor has 0 championships.


-Elgin Baylor couldn't win a championship with an allegedly washed up Wilt Chamberlain averaging 20 points and 20 rebounds and another all time great Jerry West.

-The year Elgin Baylor retired, an older and more washed up Wilt Chamberlain averaging only "in the teens" along with Jerry West and the exact same Lakers team won the championship.

-The game following Elgin Baylor's retirement, the Lakers went on an NBA record 33 game win streak.


And you want to call this player better than someone with 4 rings and counting? :lol




You see, you want to harp on the 8 times the Lakers went to the NBA Finals and lost without understanding why they went so many times. The league was a 9-12 team league for much of Elgin Baylor's career. There was one great team, and that was the Celtics.


Ok, so let me get this straight. The fact that it was only a 9-12 team league is supposed to make it more excusable that he never won a championship? It doesn't take a math major to see that makes no sense. That just strengthens my point even further.




In his prime, for example in 1961-62, he averaged 39 PPG and 18 RPG for the entire playoffs. You're going to fault him for not beating the Celtics in the Finals when he's putting up those kinds of numbers? The following year, he put up 33/14 in the playoffs. Yeah, must have been Elgin's fault.


You can quote numbers from an era with inflated stats all you want. The fact remains that he didn't win shit. Not only that but the Lakers got better as soon as he left. To be more exact, they got HISTORICALLY good.

Allen Iverson put up good stats too, but he's sitting at home right now without a job. Why is that? Like my man Herm said...


W42iiCcFbxE[youtube]




Now I'm not comparing him to A.I. I say that to illustrate the point that individual statistics alone do not make a player. Especially when the player doesn't win and the statistics were produced in an era of insanely inflated numbers compared to today, due to obvious differences in how the game is played. I'm not saying that Baylor wasn't a good player. But The impact he had is better shown by contrasting the success of his team with and without him rather than quoting to inflated stats from 1960. And as I pointed out earlier it paints a pretty clear and concise picture.



Are you sure you're a Laker fan? Do you know any Laker history predating Shaq-Kobe?



:lol Is it even possible to have a cordial conversation with you? Not sure why you felt the need to take shots at me. You're so sensitive. I wonder why there is so much anger in your posts. Is it because you live in the biggest shit hole in America? Or because you have a tiny asian cock that you feel the need to compensate for? But since you asked, I have been watching Laker games ever since I can remember, starting with the showtime Lakers. I know for a fact that I have only missed a hand full of games since about 1990. So to answer your question, yes.

[carrao45]

Yep. I had the book published after the 2003 NBA finals on "Who's best, who's greatest in basketball". Simply put, him not winning championships is one thing, but it really does not help his case when the team pulled off the longest winning streak in pro sports, not just basketball, and went on to steamroll to the championship that year.

I think Jamstone also mentioned about Charles Barkley and Dennis Rodman's rebounding ability to compare to Baylor. I believe Rodman played small forward at the start of his career. However, again, the pace of the game was too different, and the athletes, height of the players, physical talent, etc. There are too many variables to account for. I have to acknowledge the fact he was probably the best rebounding small forward of his generation which was why I said he could probably grab 9 rebounds a game for his career in average and break 10 a few times in his career.

Who's Better, Who's Best you mean? If that's what you mean, I have the book too. It's very good.

[JamStone]

None of these excuses change or contradict anything that I said. But thanks for spouting off random facts.

Qualifying doesn't necessarily have to expose contradiction.

And, the fact that you blamed him for 8 NBA Finals losses when he only played in 7 NBA Finals isn't a random fact. It shows you didn't quite know what you were talking about.




If you knew nearly as much as you pretended, you would know that Wilt was averaging 20 & 20 during the years he and Baylor played together. It wasn't until the Lakers won the title in 71-72 that Wilt averaged in the teens.


So either:

A. You are an intellectually dishonest piece of shit

or

B. You have no fucking clue what you are talking about, while you rip me for supposedly not knowing Lakers history. Which not only makes you dumb but also a hypocrite.

I looked at playoff numbers. Wilt averaged 13.9 ppg in the 1969 playoffs. The two post seasons the Lakers made it to the NBA Finals with Elgin and Wilt on the team, Wilt averaged 18.0 ppg.

I didn't take anything away from Wilt's rebounding. However, Wilt averaging 20 ppg in an era you like to qualify with inflated stats is still not the same as the 36 ppg Wilt was averaging before joining the Lakers. 36 ppg v. 20 ppg. Hmmmmmmmm.




Here are the FACTS which you unsuccessfully attempted to obfuscate:


-Elgin Baylor has 0 championships.


-Elgin Baylor couldn't win a championship with an allegedly washed up Wilt Chamberlain averaging 20 points and 20 rebounds and another all time great Jerry West.

-The year Elgin Baylor retired, an older and more washed up Wilt Chamberlain averaging only "in the teens" along with Jerry West and the exact same Lakers team won the championship.

-The game following Elgin Baylor's retirement, the Lakers went on an NBA record 33 game win streak.

And you want to call this player better than someone with 4 rings and counting? :lol


1. Never claimed Elgin won any championships.

2. A player averaging 20 ppg is a far cry from his prime when in his prime, he was averaging 36 ppg. It would be like Kobe averaging 10 ppg this season and claiming he's just as dominant as he was in his prime.

3. Elgin Baylor was pretty much done before the season he retired. Interesting how when the Lakers won the title in 1972, Bill Russell had already retired.

4. Elgin played 2 games total in the 1970-71 season. Why didn't the Lakers have that 33 game win streak in that season?

5. Go back to my posts. I never once claimed Elgin Baylor was better than Kobe. I merely said it's a tough criticism that he didn't win any titles when the prime of his career was during Russell's Celtics run.




Ok, so let me get this straight. The fact that it was only a 9-12 team league is supposed to make it more excusable that he never won a championship? It doesn't take a math major to see that makes no sense. That just strengthens my point even further.

Yes, because it was a one team league through most of Elgin's career. It was the Boston Celtics and everyone else. My point was that a bad team could make the Finals, just like the 33-39 Lakers. It makes plenty sense if you understand what I mean. In a small league, bad teams made the playoffs. Bad teams even made the Finals. There was one great team. The Celtics. They beat everybody.




You can quote numbers from an era with inflated stats all you want. The fact remains that he didn't win shit. Not only that but the Lakers got better as soon as he left. To be more exact, they got HISTORICALLY good.

Inflated stats like 20/20 wouldn't be that great, right? Your logic.

I didn't even read and won't even address that stuff mentioning Iverson...



:lol Is it even possible to have a cordial conversation with you? Not sure why you felt the need to take shots at me. You're so sensitive. I wonder why there is so much anger in your posts. Is it because you live in the biggest shit hole in America? Or because you have a tiny asian cock that you feel the need to compensate for? But since you asked, I have been watching Laker games ever since I can remember, starting with the showtime Lakers. I know for a fact that I have only missed a hand full of games since about 1990. So to answer your question, yes.

So let me get this straight. A little jab at you not being a true Laker fan, and that is comparable to bashing an entire city and my ethnicity? Cool. I think you're a little warped if you think I'm the one who has anger issues or being sensitive. My jab was a small one, wasn't even all that serious. Yours carries quite a bit of animosity. But, it's cool. I'm not going to get all butthurt over a couple insults. Have more, if it's fun for you, by all means.

But, since you were so kind enough to answer my question, I'll answer yours. I'm not sensitive at all on this topic. I just shared my opinion. I'm not angry at you or anyone else in this thread. Again, it's merely an opinion. And, Detroit, Michigan is absolutely struggling right now as a city, especially economically. But, I was born and raised here. Love the city despite its problems. And, I don't consider it a shithole by any stretch. That perception and image it has is actually a lot further from the truth if someone would actually give an honest and thorough research and look at the city. But, I'm not asking anyone to do that, not you. You do know that Los Angeles and California is in as bad a shape economically if not worse than Detroit and Michigan, right? They had to get private donors to pay for the Lakers championship parade because the city is broke. But, hey, I like LA too.

As for me having a tiny asian cock, well, I appreciate your interest in my cock. If you are a woman, and by that last post, I can at least tell you're a bitch, then PM me. Maybe you can find out how tiny it is. If you're a man, sorry, I don't swing that way. But, again, thanks, in a platonic appreciation, your interest in my cock.