After Tim Retires, Who Will be the Greatest Winner in NBA History?

[Galileo]

Poll: After Tim Retires, Who Will be the Greatest Winner in NBA History?

Rings Brought to Different Teammates

Tim Now 32

Russell 37

Jordan 29

Magic 30

Tim w/ Another Ring 39

League Teams Defeated to Get Rings

[in other words, in an 8-team league, you must beat 7 teams, in a 30-team league, you must beat 29 teams, etc.]

Tim 114

Russell 92

Jordan 162

Magic 109

Tim w/ Another Ring 143

Series Won To Get rings

Tim 16

Russell 24

Jordan 24

Magic 18

Tim w/ Another Ring 20

Caliber of Help

Hall-of-Famers

Tim 1

Russell 12

Jordan 2

Magic 4

Top 50 NBA Players

Tim 1

Russell 4

Jordan 2

Magic 2

All-Star Seasons by Teammates

Tim 2

Russell 22

Jordan 4

Magic 8

All-NBA Team Selections by Teammates

Tim 0

Russell 19

Jordan 5

Magic 2

:lobt2: :lobt2: :lobt2: :lobt2: :lobt2:

:flag:

GO TIM!

GO FOR FIVE!!!!!

[ElNono]

The 'Caliber of Help' section is wrong on multiple places...

[TIMMYD!]

Impressive. That is all.

[Höfner]

Uh, someone forgetting Five-O

[ElNono]

Uh, someone forgetting Five-O

Yes, and...

Tony was an All Star 3 times.
Finley was an All Star 2 times.
Ginobili was an All Star 1 time.

Manu being also arguably a HOF...

[will_spurs]

Yes, and...

Tony was an All Star 3 times.
Finley was an All Star 2 times.
Ginobili was an All Star 1 time.

Manu being also arguably a HOF...

I think he counted teammates who have been All Star in the same year a championship was won.

The HoF part is unknown for now. I wouldn't be surprised to see that in the end Tim played alongside 2 future HoFers.

[austN Spur]

Wow I love shi* stuff like that thanks for the thread

[Galileo]

Yes, and...

Tony was an All Star 3 times.
Finley was an All Star 2 times.
Ginobili was an All Star 1 time.

Manu being also arguably a HOF...

Tony played in the all-star game in '07, and Ginobili in '05. That's it.

Other seasons don't count for this analysis.

[Galileo]

The 'Caliber of Help' section is wrong on multiple places...

No it isn't. Where?

[SpursWench21]

very interesting numbers... thanks for posting!

[Galileo]

very interesting numbers... thanks for posting!

I was going to set up a poll, but the poll thing f'd up.

[Agloco]

Yes, and...

Tony was an All Star 3 times.
Finley was an All Star 2 times.
Ginobili was an All Star 1 time.

Manu being also arguably a HOF...

True, but I think the OP is referring to accomplishments achieved while playing alongside Timmy, in which case Finley's ASG's and 5-oh's ASG's aren't part of the equation. As far as HOF goes, the OP went with the situation as it is presently.

Interesting analysis.

[jdiggy0424]

manu isn't a hof

[Galileo]

Notes on analysis:

* Tim has four teammates who won a ring with him (Parker, Manu, Bonner, Finley).

That means if Tim wins a ring this season, seven more Spurs will win a ring with Tim (you had to play at least one playoff game to count as a ring getter).

* Hall-of-Famers

w/ Tim

DRob

w/ Russell

Tom Heinsohn
Bill Sharman (Top 50 player)
Bob Cousy (Top 50 player)
Frank Ramsey
Arnie Risen
Andy Phillip
Sam Jones (Top 50 player)
KC Jones
John Havlicek (Top 50 player)
Clyde Lovelette
Bailey Howell
Red Auerbach (head coach)

w/ Jordan

Robert Parish
Phil Jackson (head coach)

note - Pippen is a Top 50 player, but not a Hall-of-Famer

w/ Magic

Kareem
Bob McAdoo
James Worthy
Pat Riley (head coach)

All-stars

w/ Tim

Manu 1
Parker 1

w/ Russell

Cousy 6 (6 on NBA team)
Heinsohn 5 (4 on NBA team)
Sam Jones 5 (2 on NBA team)
Havlicek 3 (4 on NBA team, one year made NBA team, but not all-star)
Sharman 3 (3 on NBA team)

w/ Jordan

Pippen 4 (5 years on NBA team)

w/ Magic

Kareem 5 (2 on NBA team)
Worthy 2
Norm Nixon 1

[Galileo]

More notes:

* Popovich will make the Hall-of Fame

* Manu will make the HoF

* Manu is not HoF caliber from NBA play, but could be if he adds another ring, makes another all-star game, or has more great playoff exploits

* Parker is a borderline Hofer, he needs another ring or an all-star game

* of the 12 HoFes who were w/ Russell, 3 were only role players at end of career (Risen, Phillip, and Lovelette)

* That said, a veteran HoF role player helps your team.

* Howell came late in his career, but was an all-star in '67 and a near all-star in '68 and '69.

* Cousy and Hondo played about half their years w/ Russell

* That said, Russell had by far better teammates than Tim

* DRob played half of career w/ Tim, but it was the bad half.

* Parish was only a role player w/ Jordan

[ElNono]

Tony played in the all-star game in '07, and Ginobili in '05. That's it.

Tony actually played in the All-Star game in 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_NBA_All-Star_Game), 2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_NBA_All-Star_Game) and 2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_NBA_All-Star_Game)...


Other seasons don't count for this analysis.

Why not?

[Galileo]

Tony actually played in the All-Star game in 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_NBA_All-Star_Game), 2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_NBA_All-Star_Game) and 2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_NBA_All-Star_Game)...



Why not?

Tim Duncan didn't win a ring in '06 or '09.

Only all-star seasons in ring years count.

They don't count becasue we are looking at how much help the players got with their rings.

[ElNono]

Tim Duncan didn't win a ring in '06 or '09.

Only all-star seasons in ring years count.

They don't count becasue we are looking at how much help the players got with their rings.

Gotcha. :tu

[exstatic]

Tony played in the all-star game in '07, and Ginobili in '05. That's it.

Other seasons don't count for this analysis.

Meaningless stat.

[Cry Havoc]

So one of the 50 best players in NBA history isn't a Hall of Famer?

:lmao

[exstatic]

manu isn't a hof

Yes he is. He's as much a lock as Duncan.

You do realize that it's the basketball HOF and not the NBA HOF, right? All of his Euroleague years, plus his FIBA and Olympic stuff counts. If you want to see a player with a LESSER NBA/Euro resume who's in the HOF, look up Drazen Petrovic.

[duhoh]

manu isn't a hof

someone doesn't know his players very well

[EP Money Man]

After Tim retires . . . the world ends. Haven't you heard? 2012? Even the Mayans predicted it. :depressed

[duhoh]

After Tim retires . . . the world ends. Haven't you heard? 2012? Even the Mayans predicted it. :depressed

if the mayans knew so much about the future, why aren't they still around?

[ElNono]

if the mayans knew so much about the future, why aren't they still around?

They knew too much. They had to die. :lol

[duhoh]

haha true

[sabar]

Pretty good stat digging... shows what kind of tier Duncan is on. Would be cool to see a list of like the top 50 players sorted for each category.

Nice work!

[ShoogarBear]

Interesting use of numbers, but it won't change the fact that the answer to the question is Bill Russell.

And if you want to looks beyond NBA, Russell also won two NCAA championships and an Olympic title in the two years before turning pro.

[Spursmania]

They knew too much. They had to die. :lol

:lol

[Galileo]

Interesting use of numbers, but it won't change the fact that the answer to the question is Bill Russell.

And if you want to looks beyond NBA, Russell also won two NCAA championships and an Olympic title in the two years before turning pro.

Russell's HoF teammates:

1957

Tom Heinsohn; all-star
Bill Sharman; all-star, all-NBA (1st)
Bob Cousy, all-star, all-NBA (1st), MVP (1st)
Frank Ramsey
Arnie Risen
Andy Phillip

1959

Tom Heinsohn
Bill Sharman; all-star, all-NBA (1st)
Bob Cousy; all-star, all-NBA (1st), MVP (4th)
Frank Ramsey
Sam Jones
K.C. Jones

1960

Tom Heinsohn; MVP (10th)
Bill Sharman; all-star, all-NBA (2nd)
Bob Cousy; all-star, all-NBA (1st), MVP (4th)
Frank Ramsey
Sam Jones
K.C. Jones

1961

Tom Heinsohn; all-star, all-NBA (2nd), MVP (6th)
Bill Sharman
Bob Cousy; all-star, all-NBA (1st)
Frank Ramsey
Sam Jones
K.C. Jones

1962

Tom Heinsohn; all-star, all-NBA (2nd)
Bob Cousy; all-star, all-NBA (2nd), MVP (8th)
Frank Ramsey
Sam Jones; all-star
K.C. Jones

1963

Tom Heinsohn; all-star, all-NBA (2nd)
Bob Cousy; all-star, all-NBA (2nd), MVP (8th)
Frank Ramsey
Sam Jones
K.C. Jones
John Havlicek; MVP (10th)
Clyde Lovellette

1964

Tom Heinsohn; all-star, all-NBA (2nd)
Frank Ramsey
Sam Jones; all-star, MVP (9th)
K.C. Jones
John Havlicek, all-NBA (2nd)
Clyde Lovellette

1965

Tom Heinsohn; all-star
Sam Jones; all-star, all-NBA (2nd), MVP (4th)
K.C. Jones
John Havlicek

1966

Sam Jones; all-star, all-NBA (2nd), MVP (5th)
K.C. Jones
John Havlicek; all-star, all-NBA (2nd)

1968

Sam Jones; all-star
John Havlicek; all-star, all-NBA (2nd)
Bailey Howell

1969

Sam Jones
John Havlicek; all-star, all-NBA (2nd)
Bailey Howell

Average Russell Ring

5 teammates besides Russell are Hall-of-Famers
2 teammates besides Russell are all-stars

This means the average Bill Russell team started 3 or 4 all-stars and/or all-NBA players or MVP vote getters, 5 Hall-of-Famers (including 3 or 4 Top 50 all-time players), and even the 6th man was a Hall-of-Famer!

Frankly, Russell winning 11 rings in an 8-team league and this kind of talent, is NOT more impressive than Tim getting 4 rings in a 30-team league.

Tim > Russell

[jack0fspeed]

You forgot Shaq who has 31. Of course if he wins this year he gets to 42.

1999-2000
1. Kobe Bryant
2. Glen Rice
3. Ron Harper
4. Robert Horry
5. Brian Shaw
6. Rick Fox
7. Derek Fisher
8. A.C. Green
9. Devean George
10. Travis Knight
11. John Salley


2000-2001
Kobe Bryant
Derek Fisher
Rick Fox
12. Horace Grant
Robert Horry
Brian Shaw
13. Tyronn Lue
Devean George
Ron Harper
14. Mark Madsen
15. Greg Foster



2001-2002
Kobe Bryant
Derek Fisher
Rick Fox
Robert Horry
Devean George
16. Samaki Walker
Brian Shaw
17. Lindsey Hunter
18. Stanislav Medvedenko
19. Mitch Richmond
Mark Madsen

2006
20. Dwyane Wade
21. Antoine Walker
22. Jason Williams
23. Udonis Haslem
24. James Posey
25. Gary Payton
26. Alonzo Mourning
27. Derek Anderson
28. Michael Doleac
29. Shandon Anderson
30. Wayne Simien
31. Jason Kapono

[jack0fspeed]

Here's Duncan for comparison. I'd say Duncan and Shaq are pretty comparable.

Tim Duncan

1998 - 1999
1. David Robinson
2. Avery Johnson
3. Sean Elliott
4. Jaren Jackson
5. Mario Elie
6. Malik Rose
7. Jerome Kersey
8. Antonio Daniels
9. Steve Kerr
10. Will Perdue
11. Gerard King

2002-2003
12. Tony Parker
13. Stephen Jackson
14. Manu Ginobili
Malik Rose
David Robinson
15. Bruce Bowen
16. Speedy Claxton
17. Kevin Willis
Steve Kerr
18. Danny Ferry
19. Steve Smith

2004-2005
Manu Ginobili
Tony Parker
20. Robert Horry
21. Nazr Mohammed
22. Brent Barry
Bruce Bowen
23. Beno Udrih
24. Glenn Robinson
25. Devin Brown
26. Rasho Nesterovic
27. Tony Massenburg

2006-2007
Tony Parker
Manu Ginobili
28. Michael Finley
Bruce Bowen
29. Fabricio Oberto
Robert Horry
30. Francisco Elson
Brent Barry
31. Jacque Vaughn
32. Matt Bonner
Beno Udrih

[Galileo]

You forgot Shaq who has 31. Of course if he wins this year he gets to 42.

1999-2000
1. Kobe Bryant
2. Glen Rice
3. Ron Harper
4. Robert Horry
5. Brian Shaw
6. Rick Fox
7. Derek Fisher
8. A.C. Green
9. Devean George
10. Travis Knight
11. John Salley


2000-2001
Kobe Bryant
Derek Fisher
Rick Fox
12. Horace Grant
Robert Horry
Brian Shaw
13. Tyronn Lue
Devean George
Ron Harper
14. Mark Madsen
15. Greg Foster



2001-2002
Kobe Bryant
Derek Fisher
Rick Fox
Robert Horry
Devean George
16. Samaki Walker
Brian Shaw
17. Lindsey Hunter
18. Stanislav Medvedenko
19. Mitch Richmond
Mark Madsen

2006
20. Dwyane Wade
21. Antoine Walker
22. Jason Williams
23. Udonis Haslem
24. James Posey
25. Gary Payton
26. Alonzo Mourning
27. Derek Anderson
28. Michael Doleac
29. Shandon Anderson
30. Wayne Simien
31. Jason Kapono

Shaq wasn't the best player on the team in 2006.

You can also question Russell's first and last rings in that regard.

In 1957, Cousy was the MVP, and Russell wasn't even the rookie-of-the year, Heinsohn was, and Russell was not an all-star or all-NBA player.

In 1969, Russell did not even average double-digits, and Hondo averaged 25 points and 10 boards in the playoffs.

[ShoogarBear]

Before Russell got there none of those guys won anything. Including Auerbach, who had been coaching for a long time.

After he left, they stopped winning.

With the exception of Cousy, Havlicek, and maybe Sam Jones, it is easy to argue that all those guys are in the HoF only because of Russell.


Frankly, Russell winning 11 rings in an 8-team league and this kind of talent, is NOT more impressive than Tim getting 4 rings in a 30-team league.

Really? Name one other person who did what Russell did.

Meanwhile, there are quite a few other people who have won 4 rings during or immediately preceding the Duncan era.

Your statement is a complete logical failure.

Tim Duncan's incredible record speaks for itself. It doesn't need laughable hyperbole to prop it up.

[UnWantedTheory]

Yes, and...

Tony was an All Star 3 times.
Finley was an All Star 2 times.
Ginobili was an All Star 1 time.

Manu being also arguably a HOF...

Fin wasnt an all-star when he got here and "arguably" shouldnt count until its fact.

[UnWantedTheory]

Cool stat digging, but both sides of the argument have huge holes regarding the "Russell" Effect. :) But pretty cool to debate. I do agree with Galileo to a certain extent. OHHHH....and I wouldnt compare the talent level of teammates betweeen Shaq and Tim, because I dont think its real close Jack.

[Galileo]

Before Russell got there none of those guys won anything. Including Auerbach, who had been coaching for a long time.

After he left, they stopped winning.

With the exception of Cousy, Havlicek, and maybe Sam Jones, it is easy to argue that all those guys are in the HoF only because of Russell.



Really? Name one other person who did what Russell did.

Meanwhile, there are quite a few other people who have won 4 rings during or immediately preceding the Duncan era.

Your statement is a complete logical failure.

Tim Duncan's incredible record speaks for itself. It doesn't need laughable hyperbole to prop it up.

The 1956 Celtics were the 2nd best team in the NBA according to the Basketball Reference SRS, and had the 2nd best record (39-33).

They had to play a 3-game playoff series in the first round against Syracuse (35-37), rated 4th best in the NBA by the SRS.

The Celtics had the home court and won the first game by 17 points.

Then they lost a real close road nail-bite-er by 3 points. Then they blew it at home and lost by 5.

The Celtics were very close to crossing the hump. They had to play a short series were upsets are more likely, and then despite having a +9 point differential, lost the series.

The 1956 Celtics had three Hall-of-Famers, Cousy, Sharman, and Risen.

In the next season, 1957, the Celtics added FOUR HALL-OF FAMERS. Yes FOUR more in one season. And they kept the three they already had.

They added Bill Russell.

They Added Tom Heinsohn who won the rookie of the year award (not Russell), and averaged 23 points and 12 rebounds in the playoffs. He was 2nd on the Celtics on PER for the playoffs.

They also added Frank Ramsey, who is known as the first "6th man" in NBA history, and led the Celtics in PER in the playoffs.

They also added veteran Andy Phillip, a man know as being drafted ahead of Bob Cousy. Phillip had been an all-star as recently as 1955, and had played in the '55 and '56 NBA Finals. Phillip was the second best passer of the 1950s, behind Cousy. He lead the NBA in assists in '50, '51, '52, was 2nd in '53, '54, '55, and was 5th in '56.

They still had Cousy, who lead the NBA in assists and averaged 20.6 points per game. In the playoffs, he averaged 20 points, 9 assists, and 6 reboinds per game, yet was only 4th on the team in playoff PER.

Bill Sharman averaged 21 points and shot over 90% from the free throw line.

Risen, who in the '56 playoffs had averaged 12 points and 15 boards per game, was reduced to a 15-minute per game role player in the '57 playoffs.

So the Celtics were totally loaded with talent in 1957.

And Hondo & Don Nelson won two more NBA titles AFTER Russell left, and Don Chaney won one more after Russell left.

So your logic does not wash.

:lmao

[An Unbiased Fan]

Based on the criteria in this thread, Kobe will eclipse all in a few years and become the greatest winner in NBA history. He's already on par with TD(actually a little above at this point), and he's likely to grab a few more rings.

[Galileo]

Based on the criteria in this thread, Kobe will eclipse all in a few years and become the greatest winner in NBA history. He's already on par with TD(actually a little above at this point), and he's likely to grab a few more rings.

Kobe only has one ring.

:bang

[jack0fspeed]

Shaq wasn't the best player on the team in 2006.


Second best plus the "best" player can't seem to do squat without him. Anfernee Hardaway was supposedly great when he played with Shaq. Without him ... not so much.

Shaq took three different teams to the finals. There's a reason that teams like PHX and CLE keep taking flyers on him as a guy that might put them over the top.

[ElNono]

Based on the criteria in this thread, Kobe will eclipse all in a few years and become the greatest winner in NBA history. He's already on par with TD(actually a little above at this point), and he's likely to grab a few more rings.

You're not unbiased, nor a Cleveland fan...
And there's a reason Kobe is not in this conversation. He doesn't belong in it.
Now, feel free to start a new thread about it in the NBA forum if you disagree.

[Galileo]

Second best plus the "best" player can't seem to do squat without him. Anfernee Hardaway was supposedly great when he played with Shaq. Without him ... not so much.

Shaq took three different teams to the finals. There's a reason that teams like PHX and CLE keep taking flyers on him as a guy that might put them over the top.

Hardaway was a great player who got injured.

[jack0fspeed]

Hardaway was a great player who got injured.

With Shaq, Penny shot 50%. Without him, he never got above 44%.

[Galileo]

With Shaq, Penny shot 50%. Without him, he never got above 44%.

Penny had constanat injuries. He won the NBA player of the month when Shaq was injured.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Hardaway

[jack0fspeed]

Penny had constanat injuries. He won the NBA player of the month when Shaq was injured.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Hardaway

Again ... 50% with Shaq, low 40s without him. My original argument still stands. Penny was a good player made great by Shaq.

We are off on a rabbit trail here anyway.

[Nathan Explosion]

I'm reading Bill Simmons' book right now and he has Duncan listed as the 7th greatest player ever, behind these players (in reverse order 6-1) Wilt, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Russell and Jordan. Pretty impressive company although I'm sure Phila won't like the order.

Having said that, when you can say that you were arguably the best player on your championship teams and have more rings than fingers, you can definitely be considered the greatest winner in NBA history.