Spurs are obviously better without Parker.

[Cry Havoc]

And his 30 points through 3 quarters.

Funny how the haters are never around when he's dominating.

[bdictjames]

I hope this team is ready when Manu comes back. Parker still has ways to improve, esp. on his passing game, but he's already a superb scorer in the league.

[Solid D]

You mean you like all the ball movement between Parker's hands and the floor?

:smokin

[it's me]

lol they are actually better without him...he's getting raped by Ellis.

[Cry Havoc]

lol they are actually better without him...he's getting raped by Ellis.

And we're winning by 30. Oh noes!

[lefty]

Parker's D is horrible

[JD909]

Parker's D is horrible

^^What he said...and he also needs to learn how to pass.

[ducks]

he had 7 assist

[JD909]

he had 7 assist

Also had 3 TO's

[kbrury]

Spurs are definately better with Parker when he is in rhythm. Ill take Parker's 32 and 7 with open arms.

Defensively yes he needs to get back to putting some energy to it but it will come.

[kbrury]

Also had 3 TO's
lol complaining about 3 TOs

[Ice009]

lol complaining about 3 TOs

LOL that is silly complaining about 3 turnovers. What about Monta Ellis' 11 the other night?

[Cry Havoc]

Also had 3 TO's

Kill yourself.

[nbaman99]

i know, when spurs wins fake fans vanishes

[Man In Black]

I think Tony Parker is great. His issue has been a longstanding one of knowing when to score and when to distribute. I agree with Sean Elliott who said that Tony will benefit everyone knowing that he doesn't have to do it all himself. It will save the wear on him and get everyone in a flow.

I'd rather have a team that has 5 guys averaging double figures or real close than always have to rely on 2 or 3 primary scorers.

But ever since TP came into the league and established himself, he's been my favorite PG in the league.

[ElNono]

Tony had a great game. He can play much better though, especially on defense. He's still getting in shape though, so I'm not worried.

LOL @ 3 TO... I'll take that every night, especially against a team like the Warriors that are pretty good stealing the ball..

[ducks]

tp had 2 steals also tonight

[ducks]

we also forgot his 4 rebounds

[TDMVPDPOY]

easy to put up stats against the warriors...who dont play a lick of defense...

[SpursRulez4eVeR]

and how the hell would he has 3 fouls !!! (btw there are some plays that he got called for fouls when it was clearly a good steal)

[ducks]

easy to put up stats against the warriors...who dont play a lick of defense...

why was bogas 1-6

[ducks]

hill was 3-12 also

[TDMVPDPOY]

why was bogas 1-6

cause he was shit tonight?

bonner was 100% from the field tonight but only scored 3pts

[TDMVPDPOY]

who gives a shit, how was haislip tonight?

[ducks]

but it is easy to put up big stats against gs just ask yourself

[jjktkk]

Anybody on this website who thinks the Spurs are better without Tony Parker, also probably thinks Spurstalk is a on-line shopping site for old western antiques.

[HarlemHeat37]

He had a great game tonight, he still looks a little slow to me though..hopefully he continues to perform well, we need him to perform like a true #1/1a option every night..

[Solid D]

but it is easy to put up big stats against gs just ask yourself

I've asked myself and I concur with myself.

[timvp]

he's getting raped by Ellis.

Uh, Ellis was primarily guarded by Bogans and Hill. He got the majority of his points against Hill.

[Solid D]

Uh, Ellis was primarily guarded by Bogans and Hill. He got the majority of his points against Hill.

...and the other Ellis scores again.

[timvp]

...and the other Ellis scores again.

44 . . . :hat

[Whisky Dog]

Kill yourself.

This dude is the new Tpark.

[Admidave50]

Fuck TP, bring back Beno!

[jag]

I'm waiting for this again...

I think the problem is actually with Parker. With Parker in the game at the same time, Jefferson is much less effective. I'd like to see more running, also. Another thing would be to possibly run those same plays where Finley comes off screens for Jefferson. Another thing would be to maybe run some plays that are set for RJ to cut to the basket like maybe a backdoor play. Posting him up works only when Duncan is either at the high post or out of the game. Like timvp said, his cutting lanes aren't open right now, so the spurs need to find a way to get him going, and get him going early.




Because TP can be somewhat of a ballhog on the break and decides he's the only player on the court. When he does pass the ball, there isn't an opportunity for his teammates to make a play, it's too late. He's not used to having guys running out there with him. Hopefully that will change. A good fastbreak game could be very dangerous.

[duhoh]

and you're obviously retarded for saying something this smart

[Bukefal]

Parker is the best we have. I dont get the hate some have on him. Is it because he is French? Is it because he enjoys playing for his country too? :)

[sonic21]

Parker is a ballhog and France sucks

[Brazil]

Great game by TP, now he needs to recover his consistency: one game he is very good, the other is bad etc... we need 4-5 games in a row with a steady performance. Last night I thought he passed the ball well.

[Chieflion]

Great game by TP, now he needs to recover his consistency: one game he is very good, the other is bad etc... we need 4-5 games in a row with a steady performance. Last night I thought he passed the ball well.
This. He gets one good game, and completely mails it in the next game. No one knows what is wrong with him. He says he is healthy so no one knows what is going on. Luckily, when he does not show up, someone on the team steps up and bails his shitty performance out. Had we lost to the Bucks, he would get criticised and get run down by Spurstalkers until the next game.

[Spurs Brazil]

I think TP played well yesterday. He got a lot of open lanes and attack, that's what he needed to do

He played well for the whole game. It seems like he's get his rhythm back

[romain.star]

This. He gets one good game, and completely mails it in the next game. No one knows what is wrong with him. He says he is healthy so no one knows what is going on. Luckily, when he does not show up, someone on the team steps up and bails his shitty performance out. Had we lost to the Bucks, he would get criticised and get run down by Spurstalkers until the next game.

yeah it is not as if he was a 27 years old 3 times allstar who has contributed to 3 rings... he is a spurs legend who gained the right to have a few shitty games without being involved in lame ST trade talks. Same goes with Manu

[spurspokesman]

I think Tony Parker is great. His issue has been a longstanding one of knowing when to score and when to distribute. I agree with Sean Elliott who said that Tony will benefit everyone knowing that he doesn't have to do it all himself. It will save the wear on him and get everyone in a flow.

I'd rather have a team that has 5 guys averaging double figures or real close than always have to rely on 2 or 3 primary scorers.

But ever since TP came into the league and established himself, he's been my favorite PG in the league.
Spot on. But I have to agree that even though he's a beast and a great player he doesn't really know how to create for others ala paul or kidd or billups etc. He's a score first attack player and with the way the spurs are built now that can be a detriment.

[Josepatches_]

Of course TP can score 30-40 or even 50 points every night.

But is that what we need? or it's better the ball movement and to have 4 or 5 players with 10+ points.

IMO the ball 80% of the time in tony's hand make us worse than we could be as team.Tony going bigger but Hill,RJ,Mason,Bonner,Manu,Fin... going smaller.And with that kind of play we aren't enough good to pass the first round last year and we weren't enough good to face the Lakers 2 years ago.

But the Warriors suck in the paint so yesterday Tony was right.He has to learn every game is not the same and this year we didn't have 20+ from him very night.

[lotr1trekkie]

The beauty of this team is that every nite someone different is going to have a big nite and carry the team. TP is one of the elite PG's in the league. He will adjust his game to whatever the team needs him to do. Would you rather have AI or his reincarnation Brandon Jennings ---25 ppg and 25 shots! When Manu gets back the picture will become clear. It's like a guy having 3 really hot chicks to date and only 2 days to work with. One must be creative.

[Cry Havoc]

This dude is the new Tpark.

I'm intolerant of idiotic asshats trying to give a basketball opinion.


Great game by TP, now he needs to recover his consistency: one game he is very good, the other is bad etc... we need 4-5 games in a row with a steady performance. Last night I thought he passed the ball well.

He's been injured. You try to play a sport predicated on speed and athleticism while hurt and see how you do.


This. He gets one good game, and completely mails it in the next game. No one knows what is wrong with him. He says he is healthy so no one knows what is going on. Luckily, when he does not show up, someone on the team steps up and bails his shitty performance out. Had we lost to the Bucks, he would get criticised and get run down by Spurstalkers until the next game.

He's been injured. He still isn't 100% and he dominated the Warriors last night.

Sorry you think he's "mailing it in". Care to elaborate on this? I have never, EVER seen Tony give less than a total effort in a game, but would you rather him hurt himself attempting to get a few points that really won't matter in 6 months?


Of course TP can score 30-40 or even 50 points every night.

But is that what we need? or it's better the ball movement and to have 4 or 5 players with 10+ points.

Sorry, should he pass the ball more? OH WAIT he had seven assists.


IMO the ball 80% of the time in tony's hand make us worse than we could be as team.

Are you familiar with the concept of a "Point Guard"?


Tony going bigger but Hill,RJ,Mason,Bonner,Manu,Fin... going smaller.And with that kind of play we aren't enough good to pass the first round last year and we weren't enough good to face the Lakers 2 years ago.


Yes. Because Fin and Mason have been stellar performers when given the ball this year. Parker led everyone in assists last night, and there were SIX Spurs in double figures.


But the Warriors suck in the paint so yesterday Tony was right.He has to learn every game is not the same and this year we didn't have 20+ from him very night.

We need 20+ from him on nights when he can score at over 55% of the time he shoots. That's not production you scoff at -- Kobe typically doesn't score with that kind of efficiency.

Tony went for 32 4 and 7 last night on 55.5% shooting with just 3 TOs (over a 2 dime/TO ratio) and 2 steals with a +11, and there are still Spurs fans on this site ripping him.

I seriously don't get it. It has to racism, or jealousy, or perhaps the fact that before Tony the Spurs haven't had a HoF caliber guard since Gervin, so maybe our fans just don't really know what the fuck one of the top guards in the league is supposed to look like and it scares them.

[Chieflion]

You are telling Tony is not at 100% but he still tries his best every game. Last I checked, he said he was fine and the training staff let him play. Injuries are therefore not an excuse. What about that Bucks performance? Everyone thought Parker would do well against Jennings but he played awful basketball, and chucked up bad shots. He lit up the Warriors who have almost no legs for 30 points and played well today. Credit has to be given for that. I would not be suprised to see Parker fail against the Houston defense next game because the Bucks played good defense on Parker and the Rockets also play good defense. Until he can put in 3 consecutive solid games and shows signs he could carry the team consistently, there is still going to be criticism whether he has 3 rings or not. Only because he is the team's best offensive player and contenders cannot have leading players who play like Jordan one night and Stevenson on another. I am not even talking about the Warriors game in general, I am sure he dominated against the piss poor Warriors. Until he plays like he does against the Warriors against a solid defensive team, don't crown him prematurely.

[Cry Havoc]

You are telling Tony is not at 100% but he still tries his best every game. Last I checked, he said he was fine and the training staff let him play. Injuries are therefore not an excuse. What about that Bucks performance? Everyone thought Parker would do well against Jennings but he played awful basketball, and chucked up bad shots. He lit up the Warriors who have almost no legs for 30 points and played well today. Credit has to be given for that. I would not be suprised to see Parker fail against the Houston defense next game because the Bucks played good defense on Parker and the Rockets also play good defense. Until he can put in 3 consecutive solid games and shows signs he could carry the team consistently, there is still going to be criticism whether he has 3 rings or not. Only because he is the team's best offensive player and contenders cannot have leading players who play like Jordan one night and Stevenson on another. I am not even talking about the Warriors game in general, I am sure he dominated against the piss poor Warriors. Until he plays like he does against the Warriors against a solid defensive team, don't crown him prematurely.

Yeah, you're right. He's never had 3 good games in a row in his career before. :lmao

[Chieflion]

Yeah, you're right. He's never had 3 good games in a row in his career before. :lmao
Obviously, I was talking about this season.

[Cry Havoc]

Obviously, I was talking about this season.

Obviously, he has been playing hurt this season.

[Interrohater]

Until he plays like he does against the Warriors against a solid defensive team, don't crown him prematurely.

Crown him prematurely? Do you realize what you said? Dude has been in the Spurs organization for 8 years man, he's a Finals MVP, etc, etc. What's premature about admitting he's an amazing point guard and one of the best in the league?

To me, the problem here lies in perception. It's the same with an NFL quarterback, because he's the leader, he gets the glory and the blame.

Tony Parker has been nothing but great for the Spurs, we should all be able to agree on that. He's helped us win 3 championships. However, the "pure point guard" advocates are slow to accept him because he's a score-first pg. Now, the complaints are even stronger because we actually do have multiple weapons and Tony has the tendency to keep the ball and drive it for the score or the kickout.

Let's all agree that while the new guys have to learn the system, Tony still has to learn the new guys. Tony has been used to a certain style of play for the last few years. That's years. For him to just change it up at the drop of a hat is very difficult, if not impossible. Maybe the drive an kick isn't the best option. Maybe the pick and roll with Timmy might work better with RJ. Maybe instead of Tony running off the back door screens, Tony should be the one setting the screen for George. It goes on and on.

I disagree with the statement that Tony had a bad game against Milwaukee. He ran the offense and created for other people. He didn't look like he was forcing the issue, which accounts for his low scoring total. However, he was a pass-first pg that night, with 6 points and 6 assists. The Spurs won and he ran the offense. Regardless of his personal production, at the end of the day, the win is what's important.

While it's true that RJ struggles when Tony is on the court, I don't think that it's any cause for concern. Like I said, Tony is still learning and Pop will figure out a way to utilize both of these "first-option" guys while on the floor together.

Again, it's still early, and even in wins we would be benefited from remembering that it will take some time before we are firing on all cylinders. Which, by the way, should be a scary thought for the rest of the league.

[Cry Havoc]

Crown him prematurely? Do you realize what you said? Dude has been in the Spurs organization for 8 years man, he's a Finals MVP, etc, etc. What's premature about admitting he's an amazing point guard and one of the best in the league?

To me, the problem here lies in perception. It's the same with an NFL quarterback, because he's the leader, he gets the glory and the blame.

Tony Parker has been nothing but great for the Spurs, we should all be able to agree on that. He's helped us win 3 championships. However, the "pure point guard" advocates are slow to accept him because he's a score-first pg. Now, the complaints are even stronger because we actually do have multiple weapons and Tony has the tendency to keep the ball and drive it for the score or the kickout.

Let's all agree that while the new guys have to learn the system, Tony still has to learn the new guys. Tony has been used to a certain style of play for the last few years. That's years. For him to just change it up at the drop of a hat is very difficult, if not impossible. Maybe the drive an kick isn't the best option. Maybe the pick and roll with Timmy might work better with RJ. Maybe instead of Tony running off the back door screens, Tony should be the one setting the screen for George. It goes on and on.

I disagree with the statement that Tony had a bad game against Milwaukee. He ran the offense and created for other people. He didn't look like he was forcing the issue, which accounts for his low scoring total. However, he was a pass-first pg that night, with 6 points and 6 assists. The Spurs won and he ran the offense. Regardless of his personal production, at the end of the day, the win is what's important.

While it's true that RJ struggles when Tony is on the court, I don't think that it's any cause for concern. Like I said, Tony is still learning and Pop will figure out a way to utilize both of these "first-option" guys while on the floor together.

Again, it's still early, and even in wins we would be benefited from remembering that it will take some time before we are firing on all cylinders. Which, by the way, should be a scary thought for the rest of the league.

When Duncan has a bad game, it's "Oh, he's hurt" or "We didn't need him" or "he's saving it for the playoffs."

When Parker has a bad game, it's "Trade Tony." "Parker sucks", etc.

He might be the most unappreciated guard in the NBA. At least by his own fans. There are about 27-28 NBA teams that would KILL for Tony to be running point for them right now.

[romain.star]

When Duncan has a bad game, it's "Oh, he's hurt" or "We didn't need him" or "he's saving it for the playoffs."

When Parker has a bad game, it's "Trade Tony." "Parker sucks", etc.

He might be the most unappreciated guard in the NBA. At least by his own fans. There are about 27-28 NBA teams that would KILL for Tony to be running point for them right now.

29 NBA teams would kill 4 him

[timaios]

You are telling Tony is not at 100% but he still tries his best every game. Last I checked, he said he was fine and the training staff let him play. Injuries are therefore not an excuse. What about that Bucks performance? Everyone thought Parker would do well against Jennings but he played awful basketball, and chucked up bad shots. He lit up the Warriors who have almost no legs for 30 points and played well today. Credit has to be given for that. I would not be suprised to see Parker fail against the Houston defense next game because the Bucks played good defense on Parker and the Rockets also play good defense. Until he can put in 3 consecutive solid games and shows signs he could carry the team consistently, there is still going to be criticism whether he has 3 rings or not. Only because he is the team's best offensive player and contenders cannot have leading players who play like Jordan one night and Stevenson on another. I am not even talking about the Warriors game in general, I am sure he dominated against the piss poor Warriors. Until he plays like he does against the Warriors against a solid defensive team, don't crown him prematurely.

Obviously you never practiced basketball in your life.
I played basketball, so I will explain to you.
A basketball player needs RHYTHM, especially fast PG like Parker.
So, he is 100% healthy but his body needs to get used to the NBA competition.
Pop played him very little minutes in preseason, so he started the regular season not totally prepared.
Then the injury, a game back, injury again. NO RHYTHM...
Tony Parker needs to play 5-6 games in a row and then his body will find the rhythm of the competition.
If he plays awful in 6 games, then you can start to ask if there is anything wrong with him.
And i don't even talk about all the new guys... All that needs time.

Parker is a good passer (i think last year he was the 14th best passer in the league), but he's not Steve Nash or Jason Kidd. Some people here ask to much. Nash was 2 times MVP and Kidd (or Paul) was a borderline MVP.
When he's not passing the ball, it's not because of his ego but because:
1 - Pop wants him to attack attack attack.
2 - Passing is not one of his best skill.

If Parker tries to be Steve Nash, he will have 10 turnovers by game ! I am not sure the spurs fans will be happy with that. :p:

[kbrury]

oh god can't believe what I'm seeing out of some spurs fans.

[kbrury]

parker likes to pad his stats, how a PG doesn't average 12+ ast playing with Duncan is laughable


imagine id Nash played with Duncan, Nash would have 15 ast a game




hopefully the Raptors are one of those teams

(Bosh/Parker trade)

lol Padding stats

lol Nash

lol T Parker 3 Championships

lol Finals MVP

lol more assists means better player

[ElNono]

I don't think Pop would play Tony if Tony is hurt or injured.

[aquiet20&10]

Anybody on this website who thinks the Spurs are better without Tony Parker, also probably thinks Spurstalk is a on-line shopping site for old western antiques.

:lol :tu

[aquiet20&10]

IMO the ball 80% of the time in tony's hand make us worse than we could be as team.

:smchode:

[spursfan1000]

^^What he said...and he also needs to learn how to pass.


He knows how to pass, he just needs to do it.

[Cry Havoc]

parker likes to pad his stats, how a PG doesn't average 12+ ast playing with Duncan is laughable


imagine id Nash played with Duncan, Nash would have 15 ast a game




hopefully the Raptors are one of those teams

(Bosh/Parker trade)

:lmao

[jag]

parker likes to pad his stats, how a PG doesn't average 12+ ast playing with Duncan is laughable


imagine id Nash played with Duncan, Nash would have 15 ast a game




hopefully the Raptors are one of those teams

(Bosh/Parker trade)

Do you take your own posts seriously?

[SpursWench21]

Parker had a solid game last night, but he needs just a biiiiit more conditioning IMO and hell look even better. I think his passing is coming along and his scoring will hopefully keep improving. He really need to get his jump shooting under control (although it seems he hasnt shot much this year from the field). Also...gotta make those FT's tony..

[SpursWench21]

oops, what i mean about his passing is that i think hes beginning to get more comfortable with the newbies on the team and is slowly but surely finding guys open more often for good looks

[sabar]

I seriously don't get it. It has to racism, or jealousy, or perhaps the fact that before Tony the Spurs haven't had a HoF caliber guard since Gervin, so maybe our fans just don't really know what the fuck one of the top guards in the league is supposed to look like and it scares them.

You would think a fan-base that had Beno, Vaughn, van Exel, and Mighty Mouse at the point would be slightly more appreciative of what they have.

[sabar]

(Bosh/Parker trade)

Yep, this team needs more bigs that play no defense. Then we can cruise through the season with a bunch of SGs playing PG. :rolleyes

[Chieflion]

Obviously you never practiced basketball in your life.
I played basketball, so I will explain to you.
A basketball player needs RHYTHM, especially fast PG like Parker.
So, he is 100% healthy but his body needs to get used to the NBA competition.
Pop played him very little minutes in preseason, so he started the regular season not totally prepared.
Then the injury, a game back, injury again. NO RHYTHM...
Tony Parker needs to play 5-6 games in a row and then his body will find the rhythm of the competition.
If he plays awful in 6 games, then you can start to ask if there is anything wrong with him.
And i don't even talk about all the new guys... All that needs time.

Parker is a good passer (i think last year he was the 14th best passer in the league), but he's not Steve Nash or Jason Kidd. Some people here ask to much. Nash was 2 times MVP and Kidd (or Paul) was a borderline MVP.
When he's not passing the ball, it's not because of his ego but because:
1 - Pop wants him to attack attack attack.
2 - Passing is not one of his best skill.

If Parker tries to be Steve Nash, he will have 10 turnovers by game ! I am not sure the spurs fans will be happy with that. :p:
LOL, rhythm, so for a guy who said he was healthy and got rhythm through practice has no rhythm, gotcha.

[ShoogarBear]

What I love is the argument that Parker doesn't get enough assists, so the Spurs should replace him with . . . George Hill.

[Chieflion]

Crown him prematurely? Do you realize what you said? Dude has been in the Spurs organization for 8 years man, he's a Finals MVP, etc, etc. What's premature about admitting he's an amazing point guard and one of the best in the league?

To me, the problem here lies in perception. It's the same with an NFL quarterback, because he's the leader, he gets the glory and the blame.

Tony Parker has been nothing but great for the Spurs, we should all be able to agree on that. He's helped us win 3 championships. However, the "pure point guard" advocates are slow to accept him because he's a score-first pg. Now, the complaints are even stronger because we actually do have multiple weapons and Tony has the tendency to keep the ball and drive it for the score or the kickout.

Let's all agree that while the new guys have to learn the system, Tony still has to learn the new guys. Tony has been used to a certain style of play for the last few years. That's years. For him to just change it up at the drop of a hat is very difficult, if not impossible. Maybe the drive an kick isn't the best option. Maybe the pick and roll with Timmy might work better with RJ. Maybe instead of Tony running off the back door screens, Tony should be the one setting the screen for George. It goes on and on.

I disagree with the statement that Tony had a bad game against Milwaukee. He ran the offense and created for other people. He didn't look like he was forcing the issue, which accounts for his low scoring total. However, he was a pass-first pg that night, with 6 points and 6 assists. The Spurs won and he ran the offense. Regardless of his personal production, at the end of the day, the win is what's important.

While it's true that RJ struggles when Tony is on the court, I don't think that it's any cause for concern. Like I said, Tony is still learning and Pop will figure out a way to utilize both of these "first-option" guys while on the floor together.

Again, it's still early, and even in wins we would be benefited from remembering that it will take some time before we are firing on all cylinders. Which, by the way, should be a scary thought for the rest of the league.
It is a new season and I believe everyone has a fresh start. He was an amazing point guard last season so don't live in the past cause he is not playing to those lofty standards, he is going into his prime so most of us have higher expectations of him. I did not mention Jefferson in my post so lets not talk about him. Many people talk about Parker not being selfish because he got 7 assists in the Warriors game. Just one game. First of all, assists do not measure how much a player is passing. It measures the amount of times a player passed that created a direct basket that showed on the scoreboard, in which case, it is 7. A player can pass exactly 7 times and get 7 assists. Not saying that is what Parker did. Assists are the most vague stat because of the statistician's point of view. Thanks to the offensive firepower that the Spurs have, those 7 assists came easier than maybe a player on the Bucks getting 7 assists. With a point guard who can set up offenses better, it results in open looks and consequently, higher field goal percentage usually. Well, in which case, the Spurs field goal percentage has been horrendous in many games this season for a team with such offensive firepower.

[timaios]

LOL, rhythm, so for a guy who said he was healthy and got rhythm through practice has no rhythm, gotcha.

Are you comparing practice to NBA competition ? Seriously ?

When you play basket, you know that. Practice is slow compared to competition.
And the injuries...
When you come back from an injury, often you are good the 1st game (full of energy) and not so good the 2nd game because you are tired, your body needs to learn again the rhythm of the competition.
The more you play, the more your body gets used to the competition...

I know my english is awful but it's not so difficult to understand. I think.

[Chieflion]

Are you comparing practice to NBA competition ? Seriously ?

When you play basket, you know that. Practice is slow compared to competition.
And the injuries...
When you come back from an injury, often you are good the 1st game (full of energy) and not so good the 2nd game because you are tired, your body needs to learn again the rhythm of the competition.
The more you play, the more your body gets used to the competition...

I know my english is awful but it's not so difficult to understand. I think.
No one is arguing that. For a vet like Tony, you would think he would know how important it is to get himself back into shape before he plays or get his minutes limited. I don't think he looked tired in the Bucks game. Not at all. I am comparing practice to NBA competition because the guys he practiced with is NBA material. Plus, practices does two things, improve consistency or skills and stamina.

[Interrohater]

It is a new season and I believe everyone has a fresh start. He was an amazing point guard last season so don't live in the past cause he is not playing to those lofty standards, he is going into his prime so most of us have higher expectations of him. I did not mention Jefferson in my post so lets not talk about him. Many people talk about Parker not being selfish because he got 7 assists in the Warriors game. Just one game. First of all, assists do not measure how much a player is passing. It measures the amount of times a player passed that created a direct basket that showed on the scoreboard, in which case, it is 7. A player can pass exactly 7 times and get 7 assists. Not saying that is what Parker did. Assists are the most vague stat because of the statistician's point of view. Thanks to the offensive firepower that the Spurs have, those 7 assists came easier than maybe a player on the Bucks getting 7 assists. With a point guard who can set up offenses better, it results in open looks and consequently, higher field goal percentage usually. Well, in which case, the Spurs field goal percentage has been horrendous in many games this season for a team with such offensive firepower.

Ok, first of all (why did you say first of all if that's the only point you made?), I don't understand your post at all. Was there a point to it or are you just playing devils advocate?

Secondly, you said that it would be easier to get assists because of our firepower, then you say that our field goal percentage has been horrendous this season. So, either Tony is better at passing than you want to admit, or....I'm not sure I understand your argument.

Fine, assists are a vague stat, but then so are points. For if a player was not receiving a great pass inside, then he may not have scored. Therefore, points per game is actually subject to assists made or offensive flow. So points are vague as well. So are blocks, maybe we should start counting the times that Timmy deters a player from trying to lay it up.

You can't just make things trivial in order to support your own arguments. Jason Kidd gets 9.2 assists per game, so he sucks because that stat means nothing, he may have only passed the ball 9.2 times.

Assists do matter, because they don't reflect how many times he passed the ball to an open teammate that missed the shot and numbers go up for good players. If a guy is a rebound king, he's going to have high rebounding numbers, assist king, then high assist numbers. If Parker has a great night, there's no reason to take that away from him, the stats show what they show.

I agree that Parker is selfish, but to me, he's selfish for the right reasons. He will learn and he will adjust.

[Interrohater]

Plus, practices does two things, improve consistency or skills and stamina.

Hmm....kind of silly to pretend that you know exactly what practice accomplishes, isn't it? What if it accomplishes three things? What if it only accomplishes one?

I'm sure practice accomplishes more than just those two things.

[Chieflion]

Ok, first of all (why did you say first of all if that's the only point you made?), I don't understand your post at all. Was there a point to it or are you just playing devils advocate?

Secondly, you said that it would be easier to get assists because of our firepower, then you say that our field goal percentage has been horrendous this season. So, either Tony is better at passing than you want to admit, or....I'm not sure I understand your argument.

Fine, assists are a vague stat, but then so are points. For if a player was not receiving a great pass inside, then he may not have scored. Therefore, points per game is actually subject to assists made or offensive flow. So points are vague as well. So are blocks, maybe we should start counting the times that Timmy deters a player from trying to lay it up.

You can't just make things trivial in order to support your own arguments. Jason Kidd gets 9.2 assists per game, so he sucks because that stat means nothing, he may have only passed the ball 9.2 times.

Assists do matter, because they don't reflect how many times he passed the ball to an open teammate that missed the shot and numbers go up for good players. If a guy is a rebound king, he's going to have high rebounding numbers, assist king, then high assist numbers. If Parker has a great night, there's no reason to take that away from him, the stats show what they show.

I agree that Parker is selfish, but to me, he's selfish for the right reasons. He will learn and he will adjust.
Look, Tony may be a good passer but he hasn't shown it. Someone has to bring up his bad points because Tony is not god. Some of you people act like he has no flaws at all and that is wrong. I said it should be easy for Tony to get assists because of our firepower but the field goal percentage sucks this season and Tony is not getting any assists, so what is wrong with that? Even his 7 assists has to be gotten because of the high pace the Warriors were playing. As a point guard, Parker's job is to control the pace, not let Monta Ellis' Warriors control it. I always thought assists were the most vague stat and there was nothing wrong with that. Don't bring Jason Kidd into this argument because he is a different player than Tony.

[Chieflion]

Hmm....kind of silly to pretend that you know exactly what practice accomplishes, isn't it? What if it accomplishes three things? What if it only accomplishes one?

I'm sure practice accomplishes more than just those two things.
Practice accomplishes at least two of those things I want to see, it is useless to talk about the other stuff because it is irrelevant to the argument at this point.

[spursfan09]

I think there is a lot of jealousy towards Tony Parker. Or maybe even racism. I think if you truly hate him as much as it seems like, you should take a break from the Spurs. Spurs aren't going to be w/o Tony anytime soon...

[Chieflion]

I think there is a lot of jealousy towards Tony Parker. Or maybe even racism. I think if you truly hate him as much as it seems like, you should take a break from the Spurs. Spurs aren't going to be w/o Tony anytime soon...
If anything, I love the Spurs for their international identity. I am not American, so I don't know where the idea of racism comes from, especially when I am living in a country with many religions, races, and culture.

[Interrohater]

Look, Tony may be a good passer but he hasn't shown it. Someone has to bring up his bad points because Tony is not god. Some of you people act like he has no flaws at all and that is wrong. I said it should be easy for Tony to get assists because of our firepower but the field goal percentage sucks this season and Tony is not getting any assists, so what is wrong with that? Even his 7 assists has to be gotten because of the high pace the Warriors were playing. As a point guard, Parker's job is to control the pace, not let Monta Ellis' Warriors control it. I always thought assists were the most vague stat and there was nothing wrong with that. Don't bring Jason Kidd into this argument because he is a different player than Tony.

Well that's a fundamental difference of opinion that we have. Tony has recorded 8, 6, and 7 assists in his last three games, not just the Warriors game. So he can pass. Tony Parker's greatest strength is driving into the lane. Whether that produces a layup or a kickout for an open shot, the results are still good for the team. One of his assists on Wed. was a sidearm pass from the top of the key to a cutting Timmy for an easy layup. Dude can pass, but he's been groomed to do the exact things that you're complaining about.

Also, of course the Warriors controlled the pace. The Spurs, and Tony Parker, can only control their half of the tempo. If the Warriors are shooting seven seconds into their shotclock, that means there will be an extraordinary amount of shots taken throughout the game. In addition, the Warriors are not a great defensive team, meaning that if the lane is open, why should Tony pull it back just to set-up the offense? Again, his greatest talent is driving into the lane. To deny him that in order to "control the pace" would deny the team of very easy baskets. I understand your points, but there are logical reasons as to why these things are done.

I don't think Tony is god and I've never said that. I do, however, think that Tony is one of the greatest PG's playing the game right now, not just last year. Since when has it been decreed that a point guard must only be a distributor and to be the first-option on offense is sacrilege?

[ChumpDumper]

If anything, I love the Spurs for their international identity. I am not American, so I don't know where the idea of racism comes from, especially when I am living in a country with many religions, races, and culture.Greece?

[Interrohater]

I think there is a lot of jealousy towards Tony Parker. Or maybe even racism. I think if you truly hate him as much as it seems like, you should take a break from the Spurs. Spurs aren't going to be w/o Tony anytime soon...

Come on man, I don't know if anybody in America is racist against a black Frenchman. That's just weird. Don't play the race card because there are other races on the team and the racism-callout is for small minds that don't have the capacity to maintain a logical argument.

[Chieflion]

Well that's a fundamental difference of opinion that we have. Tony has recorded 8, 6, and 7 assists in his last three games, not just the Warriors game. So he can pass. Tony Parker's greatest strength is driving into the lane. Whether that produces a layup or a kickout for an open shot, the results are still good for the team. One of his assists on Wed. was a sidearm pass from the top of the key to a cutting Timmy for an easy layup. Dude can pass, but he's been groomed to do the exact things that you're complaining about.

Also, of course the Warriors controlled the pace. The Spurs, and Tony Parker, can only control their half of the tempo. If the Warriors are shooting seven seconds into their shotclock, that means there will be an extraordinary amount of shots taken throughout the game. In addition, the Warriors are not a great defensive team, meaning that if the lane is open, why should Tony pull it back just to set-up the offense? Again, his greatest talent is driving into the lane. To deny him that in order to "control the pace" would deny the team of very easy baskets. I understand your points, but there are logical reasons as to why these things are done.

I don't think Tony is god and I've never said that. I do, however, think that Tony is one of the greatest PG's playing the game right now, not just last year. Since when has it been decreed that a point guard must only be a distributor and to be the first-option on offense is sacrilege?
Look, I am not criticising Parker's play in the Warriors' game cause he played well, doing what is best for the team. But is he consistent enough to it against different types of teams? Great cannot describe Tony Parker, he is not at that level yet. Excellence can describe him once in a while. We need him to be at least excellent every game.

[Chieflion]

Greece?
I live in Singapore. Greece is for KBP.

[Interrohater]

Look, I am not criticising Parker's play in the Warriors' game cause he played well, doing what is best for the team. But is he consistent enough to it against different types of teams? Great cannot describe Tony Parker, he is not at that level yet. Excellence can describe him once in a while. We need him to be at least excellent every game.

Dude, there's just no winning with you. You did criticize Tony's play against the Warriors, and I just showed you that he's consistent enough to do it against different types of teams. This is not his first year in the league, he's shown time and time again that he can do it consistently. If you're really only focused on this season, then your argument is not fair because he has not even played against every team yet.

Also, great CAN describe Tony Parker because he is at, and has been at, "that level." Three championships, a finals MVP, NBA All-Star, blah blah blah. I really don't understand your criteria for a "great" player if you think these accolades are not even worth the recognition.

By the way, it seems that you must have a player in mind that you think would fit better at the point for the Spurs who is "great." Who would that be?

[Chieflion]

Dude, there's just no winning with you. You did criticize Tony's play against the Warriors, and I just showed you that he's consistent enough to do it against different types of teams. This is not his first year in the league, he's shown time and time again that he can do it consistently. If you're really only focused on this season, then your argument is not fair because he has not even played against every team yet.

Also, great CAN describe Tony Parker because he is at, and has been at, "that level." Three championships, a finals MVP, NBA All-Star, blah blah blah. I really don't understand your criteria for a "great" player if you think these accolades are not even worth the recognition.

By the way, it seems that you must have a player in mind that you think would fit better at the point for the Spurs who is "great." Who would that be?
I said he did not control the pace, that was criticism. I will admit. Otherwise he played great. Finals MVP? I think anyone could have scored those points, be it Manu or Tim. They let Parker take on the scoring load because it was to their advantage against an injured Larry Hughes. He won one championship as a role player. He could have played much better this season. Spurs roll when Parker rolls. When he doesn't, we are fucked. That's all. I have been giving Tony backhanded compliments for those who do open their eyes. He has his flaws and his accomplishments are there not solely on his play. It was because there was a man called Tim Duncan who makes everyone look good around him. Parker is excellent, not great only because he is not particularly good at the defensive side of the court.

The point guard in my mind? He has already retired. Isiah Thomas would have made a more fantastic point guard in the Spurs system.

[Sotongball21]

Selamat Hari Raya dude.

I just hate people wanting to trade TP at the start of the season.
He is very important for this spurs team. How can we trade someone that is MADE to run the Spurs offense. That puzzles me.

[Chieflion]

Selamat Hari Raya dude.

I just hate people wanting to trade TP at the start of the season.
He is very important for this spurs team. How can we trade someone that is MADE to run the Spurs offense. That puzzles me.
Dude, it is Haji if I remember correctly, and I am not even Malay. I don't want to trade Parker, at least until there is a major steal or someone like Wade wants in.

[Sotongball21]

Haha, Its Hari Raya Haji. I am a Chinese Muslim. mm

No, i am not saying you want to trade Parker, but it is baffling to know that people want to trade parker.

[ducks]

no point guard with the spurs would average 15 assist a game unless pop changes the o
it is motion offensive
tp,manu and duncan can get 5-10 assist a game
all of them can not get 10 a game though

[Interrohater]

Finals MVP? I think anyone could have scored those points, be it Manu or Tim. They let Parker take on the scoring load because it was to their advantage against an injured Larry Hughes. He won one championship as a role player. He could have played much better this season. Spurs roll when Parker rolls. When he doesn't, we are fucked. That's all. .

First Bold: It's amazing that you can be so dismissive of Tony's performance in those finals. If Tony had won a regular season MVP, you'd probably have an excuse for that as well.

Second Bold: You make it sound as if this season is over when it's just begun.

Third Bold: Parker had 6 points in the win over Milwaukee. We weren't f*cked.

I'm not even sure what you're complaining about anymore. We've all admitted that Tony has deficiencies, but so does every player in the game. And since you think Isiah would be a much better point guard, then I think Larry Bird would be the perfect 3 point shooting big to space out the floor for Timmy. Bonner sux compared to Bird.

[Cry Havoc]

Look, Tony may be a good passer but he hasn't shown it. Someone has to bring up his bad points because Tony is not god. Some of you people act like he has no flaws at all and that is wrong. I said it should be easy for Tony to get assists because of our firepower but the field goal percentage sucks this season and Tony is not getting any assists, so what is wrong with that? Even his 7 assists has to be gotten because of the high pace the Warriors were playing. As a point guard, Parker's job is to control the pace, not let Monta Ellis' Warriors control it. I always thought assists were the most vague stat and there was nothing wrong with that. Don't bring Jason Kidd into this argument because he is a different player than Tony.

You know very little about the Spurs offense, then. It is NOT designed to get a point guard assists. The Suns offense runs like that. Nash passes to a player who immediately shoots or dunks.

The Spurs do not run a one pass offense. It is not about creating opportunities for a point guard to get assists. It is about either 1) getting easy buckets via the oppositions' inability to stop Parker from driving right to the rim, or 2) Passing the ball around to find an open player on the kickout, or Duncan on a positional mismatch inside.

Had you paid any attention to our offense over the Popovich era, you would not have such trivial concerns.

By the way, Tony averaged seven assists per game last year. He's been hurt most of this season and definitely not at 100%, and you're criticizing him because "he didn't control the tempo".

I don't know what you call 32 points on 10-18 shooting, with SEVENTEEN FREE THROWS, 4 rebounds, 2 steals, and SEVEN ASSISTS, but to me that's a hell of a statline and demonstrates complete command of the Warriors defense. How is it Parker's fault that Ellis went off when Tony wasn't even guarding him for the majority of the game?

Again. You're talking about pace control. How is 17 free throws not doing exactly that?

[TDMVPDPOY]

one of the strengths tony has over ghill3 is whining to the refs after every failed drive attempt, i hope ghill3 doesnt pick up the veterans bad traits....

[Interrohater]

one of the strengths tony has over ghill3 is whining to the refs after every failed drive attempt, i hope ghill3 doesnt pick up the veterans bad traits....

:rolleyes yea, let's hope the Hill doesn't do the same thing that every player in the NBA does.

[mathbzh]

Disclaimer:
I am not saying Parker is the passer Nash is. IMHO Nash is a great passer and Parker is a good one.


no point guard with the spurs would average 15 assist a game unless pop changes the o
it is motion offensive
tp,manu and duncan can get 5-10 assist a game
all of them can not get 10 a game though

I still don't understand how people can't get that...

Steve Nash as a Suns since 2004: 0.31 assist per min, best season: 11.6 apg, worst 9.7 apg.
Steve Nash as a Mavs:0.21 assist per min, best season 8.8 apg (scoring only 14 ppg, his worst mark in 4 season). Considering the Mavs were not exactly a slow pace team, his passing numbers were good but not really great.

Either a 30 yo Steve Nash suddenly evolved from good to HOFer passer or it is just that the assist numbers are highly dependent on the team offensive organisation.

[mathbzh]

Just one just funny thing (because I don't thing many people would suggest Chris Paul is not a good PG).
So far this season:
Hornets with Paul: 3W-7L.
Hornets without Paul: 4W-2L

Paul splits:
In games won: 31 pts/7ast
In games lost: 20 pts/10 ast

I am not saying Paul is a problem for the Hornets (the sample is really small). Sometime teams regroup when their leader is down. Players step up and assume bigger responsibilities... But maybe we should take some distance with numbers.
Maybe dominating the ball as much as Paul does is the best way to transform a talented Stojakovic in a Bonner like player? Maybe West is not just a finisher but can create a little bit...

[Chieflion]

You know very little about the Spurs offense, then. It is NOT designed to get a point guard assists. The Suns offense runs like that. Nash passes to a player who immediately shoots or dunks.

The Spurs do not run a one pass offense. It is not about creating opportunities for a point guard to get assists. It is about either 1) getting easy buckets via the oppositions' inability to stop Parker from driving right to the rim, or 2) Passing the ball around to find an open player on the kickout, or Duncan on a positional mismatch inside.

Had you paid any attention to our offense over the Popovich era, you would not have such trivial concerns.

By the way, Tony averaged seven assists per game last year. He's been hurt most of this season and definitely not at 100%, and you're criticizing him because "he didn't control the tempo".

I don't know what you call 32 points on 10-18 shooting, with SEVENTEEN FREE THROWS, 4 rebounds, 2 steals, and SEVEN ASSISTS, but to me that's a hell of a statline and demonstrates complete command of the Warriors defense. How is it Parker's fault that Ellis went off when Tony wasn't even guarding him for the majority of the game?

Again. You're talking about pace control. How is 17 free throws not doing exactly that?
Look, this is a typical Tony Parker dominant game. For a guy like Parker, who called himself a top defender at the point guard position, having to defer his defensive responsibility to George Hill and Keith Bogans, against Monta Ellis, who has been on fire a few games going into the match, is wrong. During the Warriors' game, Parker had many easy opportunities to get his own. He tries to get his own first. That is part of his game. I am concerned that if his shot does not fall, then what?

[Chieflion]

First Bold: It's amazing that you can be so dismissive of Tony's performance in those finals. If Tony had won a regular season MVP, you'd probably have an excuse for that as well.

Second Bold: You make it sound as if this season is over when it's just begun.

Third Bold: Parker had 6 points in the win over Milwaukee. We weren't f*cked.

I'm not even sure what you're complaining about anymore. We've all admitted that Tony has deficiencies, but so does every player in the game. And since you think Isiah would be a much better point guard, then I think Larry Bird would be the perfect 3 point shooting big to space out the floor for Timmy. Bonner sux compared to Bird.
If Tony had a regular season MVP, I would shut up. Dominating 82 games is not easy. Dominating the injured Cavs in the finals for 4 games for a player of Tony's calibre is too simple for him. No one said the season was over, you said it. I just thought a player entering his prime would be playing much better than his past year. Parker had 6 points in the win over Milwaukee and Bonner had 23. Do you think Bonner can score 23 every game?

[gilmor]

I live in Singapore. Greece is for KBP.

Muahaha.. that explains your stupidity

[romain.star]

I just thought a player entering his prime would be playing much better than his past year.


Parker has only played 8 games while being injured in the meantime...
Nevertheless, you are willing to draw conclusions about the level of a guy who has been around for 9 years now.

So if it is just to say that the kid is not a first-pass PG, we got your point and we agree thanx

[Brazil]

Chieflion you are a cool guy and you can post good stuff and analysis. Obviously you don't like the kind of player parker is there is nothing wrong about that. Now you have to keep in mind that TP can modify and improve his game but he is what he is, he won't change drastically and become I Thomas. You should also recognize how great it is to have a guard dishing 6-7 assists taking 20 shots at 50% FG and give the guy a break if he has a difficult 10 first games.

[Sotongball21]

Muahaha.. that explains your stupidity

Dude, whats up with you and Singaporeans?

Back to topic, everyone knows that the spurs offense will not give Parker more than 15 assist. That is the way the spurs play. IMHO, Parker is a good passer, there is no doubt about it.

[Chieflion]

Dude, whats up with you and Singaporeans?

Back to topic, everyone knows that the spurs offense will not give Parker more than 15 assist. That is the way the spurs play. IMHO, Parker is a good passer, there is no doubt about it.
Most people don't even know anything about Singapore. It is great to see how he has misconceptions about Singaporeans and know jack shit about Asia in particular. We have a better government than most countries and they are probably just jealous. I heard stupid things about Singapore from Europeans and US citizens in general. An example would be, "Is it some part of China?"

[SpurNation]

Parker has never had to share the ball in the last 3 years. And last year was asked/forced to be the number 1 option.

Now that he has others he can depend on to distribute to...he's going to have learn that role as well and when to do it.

I hope it'll come about.(being a better distributor) But people can't expect him to do that in just a few games into a season where just the past season he was counted on for scoring.

Admittedly his defense is not up to standard compared to last year. That's got to be attributed to another reason since it's been proven he can play better defensively than what he's been doing thus far. Hopefully that comes around as well and probably will as the season progresses.

That said. If Parker were traded to land a top tier post player I think the team would be fine as far as perimeter players on the team now and give the Spurs a more balanced team with regards to perimeter and post player contributions.

[Bukefal]

Greece?

Greece is just the opposite. They claim their country is 99% homogenic. They are xenophobic racists. They refuse to recognize any of their ethnic minorities, or any other religion.

[Interrohater]

Parkers Finals MVP was a joke, should of went to Duncan, but in a 4 game sweep someone can come in for the steal

That's just as stupid as saying '99 should have an asterisk. (as Bill Walton said: They beat everyone they had to beat.)

Maybe without Parker, it's not a 4 game sweep? Cavs had no answer for him.

I'm not a Parker-lover, but come on guys. This is just getting ridiculous. One of the best pg's in the game. Instant offense if the rest of the team is suckin, floor leadership. Team-oriented with team chemistry. Lament all you want, but he's a great pg and he'll keep winning games for us.

[kbrury]

Parkers Finals MVP was a joke, should of went to Duncan, but in a 4 game sweep someone can come in for the steal

lol



Still can't believe the magnitude of hate we are getting for Parker here.

[TDMVPDPOY]

daniel gibson says hi

[Interrohater]

daniel gibson says hi

So I assume with this witty repartee you are trying to make the point that Parker only dominated the Finals because of Gibson's inexperience and that he had to start.

Again, just as stupid as the asterisk for the '99 finals.

You can call out all the "well, if...." scenarios that you want. The hardware and the resume, however, will never change.

[Macca76]

So I assume with this witty repartee you are trying to make the point that Parker only dominated the Finals because of Gibson's inexperience and that he had to start.

Again, just as stupid as the asterisk for the '99 finals.

You can call out all the "well, if...." scenarios that you want. The hardware and the resume, however, will never change.

Don't even try to answer to TDMVPDPOY and Duncan the G.O.A.T., they're just basic TP haters, god only knows why. You'll get tired before them :lol

[Cry Havoc]

Look, this is a typical Tony Parker dominant game.

Stop. Just STFU.

You are literally whining that our point guard just destroyed a defense for 30+ points on 50%+ shooting with 7 assists and getting to the line nearly 20 times while dishing out 7 assists.

You have no clue what the fuck you're talking about.

[Chieflion]

Stop. Just STFU.

You are literally whining that our point guard just destroyed a defense for 30+ points on 50%+ shooting with 7 assists and getting to the line nearly 20 times while dishing out 7 assists.

You have no clue what the fuck you're talking about.
This is stupid. I said Tony Parker was dominant and you sound retarded. May I ask where were you when Parker was playing lousy? What are you crying havoc about this time? Starting this thread was redundant in the first place. I said it was a typical Tony Parker dominant performance. So, tell me what is wrong with that? So your Tony Parker dominant performance would have a statline of 40 and 12. Explain. All you have been doing is call out people who you think Parker sucks this season and when they explain, you will tell them to STFU.

[Cry Havoc]

This is stupid. I said Tony Parker was dominant and you sound retarded. May I ask where were you when Parker was playing lousy? What are you crying havoc about this time? Starting this thread was redundant in the first place. I said it was a typical Tony Parker dominant performance. So, tell me what is wrong with that? So your Tony Parker dominant performance would have a statline of 40 and 12. Explain. All you have been doing is call out people who you think Parker sucks this season and when they explain, you will tell them to STFU.

Parker.

Has.

Been.

Hurt.

If he had a broken leg, would you expect him to be throwing up 15-5 statlines? Because you're judging an All-star, finals MVP, 3 ringed point guard based on 8 games of a regular season while playing hurt, and you STILL criticized the above performance.

Your Parker hate could not be more obvious.

[Chieflion]

Parker.

Has.

Been.

Hurt.

If he had a broken leg, would you expect him to be throwing up 15-5 statlines? Because you're judging an All-star, finals MVP, 3 ringed point guard based on 8 games of a regular season while playing hurt, and you STILL criticized the above performance.

Your Parker hate could not be more obvious.
Are you stupid? He is healthy now. There are many notable players who played well immediately coming back from injuries. I was giving my opinion on why he is not playing well and you think I am hating on him. When people are objective and able to see flaws, you think people are hating. Cry about it some more. I can't wait to hear it.

[Chieflion]

And his 30 points through 3 quarters.

Funny how the haters are never around when he's dominating.
Funny how you never showed up when he is playing lousy. Stupid thread.

[Cry Havoc]

Funny how you never showed up when he is playing lousy. Stupid thread.

Funny how you criticize a player for being less effective 8 games into the season, while injured.

Also, when have I now shown up? I have nearly 9,000 posts on this site. You think Parker has a bad game and I stop posting?

[Chieflion]

Funny how you criticize a player for being less effective 8 games into the season, while injured.
I don't think Pop would allow an injured player to play, like how he pulled Ginobili back today. Again, stupid reasoning from a homer who gives excuses on weaker performance. What are you going to say if Parker has a weak performance today?

[Cry Havoc]

I don't think Pop would allow an injured player to play, like how he pulled Ginobili back today


During the 2005–06 season, Duncan suffered from plantar fasciitis for most of the season,[48] which was at least partly responsible for his sinking output (18.6 points, 11.0 rebounds, 3.2 assists and 2.0 blocks per game), and also for his failure to make the All-NBA First Team after eight consecutive appearances.

- Source: Wikipedia


Sorry. What were you saying?

[Chieflion]

- Source: Wikipedia


Sorry. What were you saying?
What was that? 3 years back? Proof from last season how he would never play an injured player who needs time to recover.

[Cry Havoc]

And last I checked, players are allowed to have bad games. Even the great Tim Duncan has had a few. Do you make threads and bash Timmy when he has an off-night?

[Chieflion]

And last I checked, players are allowed to have bad games. Even the great Tim Duncan has had a few. Do you make threads and bash Timmy when he has an off-night?
I don't make threads to bash players, period.

[Cry Havoc]

What was that? 3 years back? Proof from last season how he would never play an injured player who needs time to recover.

You said Popovich wouldn't allow an injured player to play. You did not put a specific timetable on when this has (not) occurred. I'm simply offering up facts to refute your generalizations that bear no truth in reality. Do you really think Manu has been 100% every time he's been on the court? Or Duncan? Or any Spurs player?

[Cry Havoc]

I don't make threads to bash players, period.

Right, you just crash them with your ridiculous hate for specific players not playing the game the way you want them to.

[kbrury]

lol Chieflion saying someone uses bad reasoning, should look at his own posts.

[Chieflion]

You said Popovich wouldn't allow an injured player to play. You did not put a specific timetable on when this has (not) occurred. I'm simply offering up facts to refute your generalizations that bear no truth in reality. Do you really think Manu has been 100% every time he's been on the court? Or Duncan? Or any Spurs player?
I don't think Parker likes people to give excuses for him. He is 100% now or so he says. I am sure he believes it. If I want to see 100% Tim Duncan, I will search for old tapes in 2003. If I want to see Manu at 100%, then I will look for his 2005-08 tapes. Parker's prime is now and he has not proved it so far which is a major disappointment.

[Chieflion]

lol Chieflion saying someone uses bad reasoning, should look at his own posts.
Have you only posted one-liners throughout this thread?

[Chieflion]

Right, you just crash them with your ridiculous hate for specific players not playing the game the way you want them to.
Here we go again. You don't like people giving their personal opinion, then gtfo from spurstalk. It is not hate. It is opinion.

[kbrury]

Have you only posted one-liners throughout this thread?


Why yes I have, because I believe the discussion going on in here is just stupid.

You talk about Parker not controlling Pace but he does everything a coach would want him to do on offense in the GS game. Then you complain about him sayin that he can guard Ellis when it is ultimately up to Pop who guards who, why don't you bash Hill and the defense that was played against Ellis.

[Cry Havoc]

Parker's prime is now and he has not proved it so far which is a major disappointment.

lol 8 games

lol all-star 2006

lol all-star 2007

lol all-star 2008

lol finals MVP

lol 3 time NBA champion

lol 6.9 assists in 2008

lol career 53.8 FG%

[Chieflion]

lol 8 games

lol all-star 2006

lol all-star 2007

lol all-star 2008

lol finals MVP

lol 3 time NBA champion

lol 6.9 assists in 2008

lol career 53.8 FG%
And somehow, all of that did not happen this season.

[Cry Havoc]

And somehow, all of that did not happen this season.

Yeah, while Duncan has been beasting. He's already accumulated 12 Defensive PoY awards, 3 Finals MVPs, 1,400 blocks, and has been crowned King of San Antonio -- all over the last 8 games!

[Chieflion]

Yeah, while Duncan has been beasting. He's already accumulated 12 Defensive PoY awards, 3 Finals MVPs, 1,400 blocks, and has been crowned King of San Antonio -- all over the last 8 games!
I think only you would make such an outlandish statement. Both of them have been inconsistent and Duncan has recently picked up.

[kbrury]

Think someone needs to be reminded of Pop's philosophy.

[Cry Havoc]

I think only you would make such an outlandish statement. Both of them have been inconsistent and Duncan has recently picked up.

I think you cannot detect sarcasm. Or your own double-standards.

[Chieflion]

I think you cannot detect sarcasm. Or your own double-standards.
Look who can't detect sarcasm, definitely not me, pussbag. You are still going with the Parker is injured, that is why he is playing lousy. I don't see Antawn Jamison playing like crap even though he is injured so to say.

[Cry Havoc]

sarcasm

G2y8Sx4B2Sk

[Chieflion]

Stupid video. It was you who started using that word, not me.

[dbestpro]

This is not about whether you like or dislike Parker. Parker the indivdual can win a game like the last one. Parker the team mate can win a championship.

[Chieflion]

This is not about whether you like or dislike Parker. Parker the indivdual can win a game like the last one. Parker the team mate can win a championship.
I don't know man. You tell me whether having high expectations set for Parker is wrong or not. Some people here like having low expectations for their stars supposedly in their prime.

[Cry Havoc]

This is not about whether you like or dislike Parker. Parker the indivdual can win a game like the last one. Parker the team mate can win a championship.

Can you point to a single player, coach, or janitor in the Spurs organization who has ever said a single thing about Tony being too selfish or too concerned with scoring points?

[Cry Havoc]

I don't know man. You tell me whether having high expectations set for Parker is wrong or not. Some people here like having low expectations for their stars supposedly in their prime.

He scored 32 with 7 assists and you were ripping him for his performance. Next.

[Chieflion]

Can you point to a single player, coach, or janitor in the Spurs organization who has ever said a single thing about Tony being too selfish or too concerned with scoring points?
This is the kind of thing they would keep it under wraps. They are professional enough. I am not saying he is selfish. His style needs to change.

[Chieflion]

He scored 32 with 7 assists and you were ripping him for his performance. Next.
I was just pointing out some flaws. 32 points and 7 assists do not mean no flaws, dipshit.

[dbestpro]

32 points against the defensive juggernaut Warriors who were missing their starting center. Keep it in persepctive.

[Macca76]

This is the kind of thing they would keep it under wraps. They are professional enough.


I am not saying he is selfish. His style needs to change.

1/ Lol. Parker plays exactly like Pop wants him to play.

2/ Says Chieflon better coach than Popovich ?

And to answer to your thousand posts about TP was bad for the beginning of the season. As everyone said but you don't seem to understand : he was hurt. Even if he comes back healthy, he needs to find back his rythm.

[Chieflion]

1/ Lol. Parker plays exactly like Pop wants him to play.

2/ Says Chieflon better coach than Popovich ?

And to answer to your thousand posts about TP was bad for the beginning of the season. As everyone said but you don't seem to understand : he was hurt. Even if he comes back healthy, he needs to find back his rythm.
I am sure he found his rhythm back by now.

[kbrury]

I thought Parker played pretty well tonight in a tough defensive game, also his defensive effort was a lot better tonight.

[Chieflion]

An average Tony Parker game. Nothing really special though.

[kbrury]

Can't you compliment his defensive effort?

[anakha]

An average Tony Parker game. Nothing really special though.

So he has to go for 32 and 7 before you give him his props?









Oh wait...

[spursfan09]

If anything, I love the Spurs for their international identity. I am not American, so I don't know where the idea of racism comes from, especially when I am living in a country with many religions, races, and culture.

Is it jealousy then?

[spursfan09]

Come on man, I don't know if anybody in America is racist against a black Frenchman. That's just weird. Don't play the race card because there are other races on the team and the racism-callout is for small minds that don't have the capacity to maintain a logical argument.

Must be jealousy then?

[Interrohater]

Must be jealousy then?

No, it's the pass-first advocates who don't like Tony's mindset of shoot-first.

I will give this to you, chieflion:

Tony looked like absolute garbage tonight. We won this game in spite of Tony, not because of him. I don't know how many times he left a wide-open RJ, or George Hill, so he could take a contested jump shot. I'm not worried though. If I could see it, then Pop could see it. I trust in Pop.

[ElNono]

No, it's the pass-first advocates who don't like Tony's mindset of shoot-first.

I will give this to you, chieflion:

Tony looked like absolute garbage tonight. We won this game in spite of Tony, not because of him. I don't know how many times he left a wide-open RJ, or George Hill, so he could take a contested jump shot. I'm not worried though. If I could see it, then Pop could see it. I trust in Pop.

+1

I never thought I'll say this but Mason handing out easy buckets to Blair tonight looked a lot better than Tony, as far as being a creator.
There's something going on with Tony. I don't know if he's just tired of the 82 game season and he's just going through the motions or what. I trust Pop will figure it out.

[Brazil]

We got the w against the rockets in their home (the first one), TP stats 19 2 7 ( I repeat 7 assists) with 4 tos shooting and defending decently while he is back after one week off but still the spurs fans are not happy with his performance... the tp hate is strong.

fuck you all just enjoy the fucking win

[ElNono]

We got the w against the rockets in their home (the first one), TP stats 19 2 7 ( I repeat 7 assists) with 4 tos shooting and defending decently while he is back after one week off but still the spurs fans are not happy with his performance... the tp hate is strong.

You keep looking at his numbers, I'll keep watching the games.
I want nothing but for Tony to be the best out there, because that automatically means we will win more games. I'm sorry if this bothers you somehow. I'm enjoying the win. No question about it.

[mingus]

Duncan and Parker look a step slower on both ends of the floor. hopefully there's nothing physically wrong with them and they're just approaching the season as a marathon by taking it slow. i know that was the approach for Duncan going in, but Parker looked signifcantly slower before the injury even happened this season... maybe he was still hurting from the ankle sprain he suffered this summer, or like i said he was approaching the season like a marathon.

both guys will have to be at the top of their game if they want to give any competition to the Lakers.

[sonic21]

good defensive game for tony. He was bad in the 1st and the 4th quarter on offense though.

[Ice009]

We got the w against the rockets in their home (the first one), TP stats 19 2 7 ( I repeat 7 assists) with 4 tos shooting and defending decently while he is back after one week off but still the spurs fans are not happy with his performance... the tp hate is strong.

fuck you all just enjoy the fucking win

I like that TP is being more aggressive. He still looks a little fatigued to me. If he's just out of form then I think he is starting to play better. I'm not going to bash him at all after tonight's game. I thought he was aggressive and played a decent game. He made some mistakes, but that is OK we won the game and those mistakes will be corrected as everyone gets on the same page.

RJ has to step up his aggressiveness though and not wait for Tony to set him up. TP and Tim have been trying to set up RJ, but I think RJ simply must put it on himself to be more aggressive and confident in his shooting and driving. Don't think about the system too much, just play.

[Bukefal]

We got the w against the rockets in their home (the first one), TP stats 19 2 7 ( I repeat 7 assists) with 4 tos shooting and defending decently while he is back after one week off but still the spurs fans are not happy with his performance... the tp hate is strong.

fuck you all just enjoy the fucking win

Exactly, this is obvious. Even how good he is in a game, he still is hated and underrated by the Spurs own fans. I cant think of any other explanation then that he is French. that must be it.

TP is the best we have, of course he has his bad days, but still.

[ElNono]

Exactly, this is obvious. Even how good he is in a game, he still is hated and underrated by the Spurs own fans. I cant think of any other explanation then that he is French. that must be it.

TP is the best we have, of course he has his bad days, but still.

Stop hating, please.... :rolleyes

[Muser]

Some people are never happy.

[Cry Havoc]

Parker didn't have his best game last night.

That said, he still shot 8-18 (not terrible, one shot from 50%), and had 19 and 7.

He also was on the court helping to orchestrate the monster 14-0 run that undoubtedly won the game for us in the start of the 2nd half. A lot of the time his jumper just wasn't falling and it just looked like he didn't have his legs under him.

[Brazil]

You keep looking at his numbers, I'll keep watching the games.
I want nothing but for Tony to be the best out there, because that automatically means we will win more games. I'm sorry if this bothers you somehow. I'm enjoying the win. No question about it.

I keep watching the game too and TP did a very good job in Defense while shooting near 50 and gave 7 assists. Everybody is complaining about TP D, guess what ? against Houston he defended well. Of course his game was far from perfect but it's still November. You right it does bother me.

[The Truth #6]

Good to see Parker is playing better because attack mode without buckets doesn't look pretty or help the team. I wish Parker could contribute other than just scoring but when he shoots a high percentage we usually do well.

[Cry Havoc]

I wish Parker could contribute other than just scoring

Yeah, it's not like he ever gets an assist.

Or was 11th last year in the NBA in assists per game.

Nothing like that.

[The Truth #6]

Yeah, it's not like he ever gets an assist.

Or was 11th last year in the NBA in assists per game.

Nothing like that.


He's a scoring point guard. Passing the ball is not his focus. He has the ball in his hands often for a majority of the shot clock. Often he scores but other times he passes when he can't get his shot. He'll get assists but don't act like distributing the ball is his main focus. Statistics don't tell the whole story. Iverson often got a lot of assists but no one confused that with him prioritizing the distribution of the ball. It was a byproduct of having the ball in his hands for large chunks of time.

If Tony is effective in his role then the Spurs often win. My issue is that he needs to learn to adapt his game, especially for his future years when his speed will give and he won't have other fundamentals to fall back on.

I don't see this as controversial but you seem to have an issue with protecting Parker.

[Brazil]

He's a scoring point guard. Passing the ball is not his focus. He has the ball in his hands often for a majority of the shot clock. Often he scores but other times he passes when he can't get his shot. He'll get assists but don't act like distributing the ball is his main focus. Statistics don't tell the whole story. Iverson often got a lot of assists but no one confused that with him prioritizing the distribution of the ball. It was a byproduct of having the ball in his hands for large chunks of time.

If Tony is effective in his role then the Spurs often win. My issue is that he needs to learn to adapt his game, especially for his future years when his speed will give and he won't have other fundamentals to fall back on.

I don't see this as controversial but you seem to have an issue with protecting Parker.

so he was 11th on assists last year because he has the ball in his hands for large bunch of time ? :rolleyes funny take

[The Truth #6]

If he can't get his shot he will pass the ball but he spends a good percentage of the shotclock with the ball in his hands. Nash dominates the ball as well but his focus is on passing, not scoring. Obviously Parker looks to score as his priority. It's called attack mode. Are you claiming Parker is a pass first point guard? I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make other than defending Parker, which really isn't an argument but a personal preference.

[Brazil]

If he can't get his shot he will pass the ball but he spends a good percentage of the shotclock with the ball in his hands. Nash dominates the ball as well but his focus is on passing, not scoring. Obviously Parker looks to score as his priority. It's called attack mode. Are you claiming Parker is a pass first point guard? I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make other than defending Parker, which really isn't an argument but a personal preference.

nobody is saying he is a pass first point guard but he is no Iverson like you seem to think, this is just stupid. He is a scorer because this is his natural ability and because Pop wants him to be in attack mode. Now he has the capacity to pass the ball and he is doing that more than decently. Stating that he passes only when he can't score is just a joke.

[spursncowboys]

And his 30 points through 3 quarters.

Funny how the haters are never around when he's dominating.
+1. How can people debate this?

[The Truth #6]

nobody is saying he is a pass first point guard but he is no Iverson like you seem to think, this is just stupid. He is a scorer because this is his natural ability and because Pop wants him to be in attack mode. Now he has the capacity to pass the ball and he is doing that more than decently. Stating that he passes only when he can't score is just a joke.

If I mentioned Arenas instead of Iverson would that make you feel better? It's the same situation - scorers trapped in a point guard's body. You seem to be offended by the Iverson comparison probably because of your personal feelings towards Iverson but Iverson averaged a high number of assists, in fact often higher than Parker, yet obviously you aren't defending Iverson for being a good passer, even with the same use of statistics that you used previously in defense of Parker.

You're a Parker fan. That's cool. But I'm not expecting this to be an objective discussion.

[TDMVPDPOY]

even though we are winning games atm, still he destroyed the momentum run we had going when he was out....this applies to ginoboli also....

[The Truth #6]

Another thing - the gospel that Pop wants Tony to be a shoot first point guard.

It wasn't always that way. Pop would berate Tony to try and mold him into a point guard that could score but also would be part John Stockton, as in a distributor. It was a unrealistic goal most likely because Pop wanted absolute perfection, but in no way did Pop only want to Parker to be a scorer.

What changed was Pop realized he needed to lighten up and let his stars focus on their strengths. He quit berating Manu and let him play wide open, and soon after let Parker play to his strengths without yelling at him every game. Obviously the results were good and Pop adapted his approach to the team by building around them.

[Brazil]

I'm a Parker hater. That's cool.

if u can't see the difference between arenas/iverson and parker there's nothing i can do for u. just a tip 10% fg.

I'm a parker fan but not an homer, look at my posts you will see that I'm not blind.

[kbrury]

even though we are winning games atm, still he destroyed the momentum run we had going when he was out....this applies to ginoboli also....

You can't really blame that on them when players are injured you get used to different lineups and when players come back you have to adjust.

[kbrury]

if u can't see the difference between arenas/iverson and parker there's nothing i can do for u. just a tip 10% fg.

I'm a parker fan but not an homer, look at my posts you will see that I'm not blind.

I do agree with the truth that Parker is a score first PG but he doesn't dominate the ball like an Iverson or Arenas if he did this team might not have won in the past.

[spursfan09]

It's seems when people say that he is not a pass first pg, that they trying to imply he is not all about the team- for the team which is ridiculous. I didn't see the game last night, but was he really that horrible? You people are making it seem like he doesn't belong in the NBA. And I know thats not right...

[The Truth #6]

if u can't see the difference between arenas/iverson and parker there's nothing i can do for u. just a tip 10% fg.

I'm a parker fan but not an homer, look at my posts you will see that I'm not blind.

You're not a Parker homer, yet you have a picture of Parker? And yet in the same post you label me as a Parker hater because I don't agree with you? Yes, you make a convincing argument.

It seems your problem with a Arenas/Iverson comparison is their fg% is lower, yet I don't hear you make an argument that their games are fundamentally different in approach. Right now Parker's fg % is low so I guess then you do agree?

These Parker threads are hilarious because they're always a few Parker fans on 24 hour security watch trying to minimize any real discussion. I don't hate Parker. I'm a fan of the team. With all the new talent, players will need to adapt. I haven't seen Parker adapt yet either to accomodate the new players or to change his approach when his shot isn't falling. I don't feel that makes me a Parker hater but perhaps you've become sensitive having to battle with the maniacal Manu fanbase. Whatever, you don't seem interested in discussion so I'll move on.

[Brazil]

lol I have a picture of tp so I'm a homer ? check my posts. I said parker hater as you stated for me parker homer. I don't know if you hate or not and I don't care.

[kace]

I don't feel that makes me a Parker hater but perhaps you've become sensitive having to battle with the maniacal Manu fanbase.

the "manu church" has nothing to do with the Parker hate lately, and for quite a while.

Manu has had more than his share of BS and unfair criticism lately on this forum. i think that made the manu fans more aware of how much the blind bashing is annoying and boring, whoever the player victim of that is.

[Interrohater]

Firstly, why don't we stop saying "Parker Hate" because a very high percentage of posters here don't hate Parker. The argument is more about trying to get the new guys involved, specifically Richard Jefferson. Is it not true that RJ played better when Parker was injured? It is true.

That, however, does not mean that anyone is asking for Parker to come off the bench (although some morons have said he should be traded, as if RJ is more important than Parker). It merely means that it's noticeable.

We haven't had a Jefferson-like player in many years, so to neglect his talents does a disservice to the rest of the team. Yes, we'll still win, the Spurs won 54 games last year with Tony doing what he does, but all of us were excited about the offseason acquisition of RJ and what he'd bring. So far that has really only surfaced during the games Tony was out. It's not a bash on Tony more than just a recognition of the TEAM's deficiencies.

I put this on Coach Pop more than Tony. Tony is playing the best way he knows how with the team he's had for the last couple of years. It's a new team now, though, and they will eventually gel, but it's going to take adjustments from every player at all positions. Tony is not exempt from that.

[The Truth #6]

lol I have a picture of tp so I'm a homer ? check my posts. I said parker hater as you stated for me parker homer. I don't know if you hate or not and I don't care.

Okay...I called you a Parker fan, you called yourself a Parker fan...somehow that meant I was a Parker hater. Because he's one of the more talented players on the team I think it's fair to spend more time discussing him. That's all this is.

[Brazil]

Okay...I called you a Parker fan, you called yourself a Parker fan...somehow that meant I was a Parker hater. Because he's one of the more talented players on the team I think it's fair to spend more time discussing him. That's all this is.

I'm all for discussing him fairly.

[sonic21]

Point guards are always under the most scrutiny from a fan base. They have (along with centers) the toughest job on the team. You read other team's forums and you'll find the same thing out of their fans regarding their point guards. The point guard is the first player blamed and the last to receive credit. The last point guard who was universally loved by their fans might have been Magic Johnson.

Is it fair? Maybe not but sometimes it goes overboard with parker (like last year when he had 36 pts and 10 asts against orlando and people were blaming him for the loss even if he was the only player who show up)

[Solid D]

Spurs are better with Parker, no question. He kills a lot of teams and his aggressive drives open up shots for others. As long as Tony gives it up when he doesn't have a shot, the Spurs thrive. Over-dribbling is his only real weakness and that comes and goes. He's still learning how to set teams up, particularly on the break, but he's the Spurs' primary scoring threat right now. The Spurs are obviously better WITH Parker.

[DPG21920]

^ Agree.

But there are a lot of Parker fans who seem to put him above the Spurs. They get over sensitive to any criticism and think he can do no wrong. Parker does far more good than bad, but it is ok to critique his game.

There is a problem with Parker hate, but that is a very small percentage of posters. But the defensive nature of some posters with regards to TP is getting crazy.

[portnoy1]

If you let Parker run pick n rolls all night, and spread the floor with bonner/Mason Jr./Finley and maybe Dice he can rack up 10-12 assist if the other team is insistent on collapsing in the paint so he cant score. He'll give up the ball if doubled, and can rack up assist easily that way. However, He doesnt have PG awareness. If your a guy who moves without the ball, most likely he wont be looking for. If your a guy who is solid in the post he will not run an isolation play for you. If you have a mismatch and he has a mismatch, he is going to try to score; instead of looking for you. Parker has always been that way. The reason he its being highlighted more this year is becuause of RJ. RJ is maybe the most versatile spur on the roster. He can shoot the spot up 3, but also slash/post/and finish at the rim in transition and otherwise. With Parker on the floor he is relegated to a spot up shooter. If TP is to look for him in the post, he needs to be ready to take that 16ft jumper cause of RJs double team. It can be done, however at this stage in his career RJ may not be able to adjust that well to a shootfirst PG which is why I like Hill/RJ playing together. Parker has always been a score-first PG and I doubt he'll change, since in the past that has really screwed up his game, thats why I like Parker and a shooter at the 2 or 3 spot. So basically theyll have to feel eachother out and play to their strengths. The team is better with Parker. PERIOD

[DPG21920]

Give him time to get used to RJ. TP is used to running in a slower system with a ton of play calls. He has not had a lot of guys who break out like RJ. The entire team is adjusting and that is especially tough on Tim and TP.

They will adjust and try and make it work. Now, it may never happen, but it won't be because TP is not good enough. It will be for multiple reasons.

[ElNono]

^ Agree.

But there are a lot of Parker fans who seem to put him above the Spurs. They get over sensitive to any criticism and think he can do no wrong. Parker does far more good than bad, but it is ok to critique his game.

There is a problem with Parker hate, but that is a very small percentage of posters. But the defensive nature of some posters with regards to TP is getting crazy.

This.
We're obviously better WITH Parker. I don't think there's debating this.
I also think we all saw him play considerably better than he has this season overall, and wish for him to get back to that level. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Brazil]

If I mentioned Arenas instead of Iverson would that make you feel better? It's the same situation - scorers trapped in a point guard's body. You seem to be offended by the Iverson comparison probably because of your personal feelings towards Iverson but Iverson averaged a high number of assists, in fact often higher than Parker, yet obviously you aren't defending Iverson for being a good passer, even with the same use of statistics that you used previously in defense of Parker.

You're a Parker fan. That's cool. But I'm not expecting this to be an objective discussion.

the tonite game is another proof that tp is a ballhog like Iverson, I mean in 33 min he took an impressive 10 shoots converting 6 while dishing 7 assists, typically Iverson or Arenas way of playing.

[ducks]

tp had 9 shot attempts 8 assist
16 points
mike finley even had more shot attempts then tp tonight
he knows how to pass
idiots

[Interrohater]

Tonight was an aberration for Tony, obviously. I think we're all arguing the same points here and I don't understand the fervor of the debate.

My whole thing was that he has to make small adjustments to get RJ more involved.

[ducks]

rj scored 5 points and tp had 3 assist before attempting a shot!

[Brazil]

Tonight was an aberration for Tony, obviously .

:lol yeah i know i was messing around a little, still never iverson could spend 33 min taking only 9 or 10 shots

[The Truth #6]

the tonite game is another proof that tp is a ballhog like Iverson, I mean in 33 min he took an impressive 10 shoots converting 6 while dishing 7 assists, typically Iverson or Arenas way of playing.

Clearly, he's following this thread VERY closely and decided to address his critics.


As to your point, I compared Parker to those players because they all are shoot first point guards. I raised the point that one can dominate the ball and average a high number of assists as Iverson did, yet it still doesn't mean they are good passers. You seem proud of Parker's assists yet dismissive of other shoot first point guards who often average more assists while dominating the ball even more, which was my original point: assists numbers alone don't tell the whole story.

Anyway, comparing Parker to those two can only go so far because they played in different scenarios, often with poor coaching, and most importantly - they didn't play next to the best player of recent memory, Tim Duncan. I see no reason why Arenas couldn't have played well in the Spurs system next to Tim and Manu as he was an excellent scorer and shooter. In fact, Tony often compared himself to Arenas, especially when he was lobbying for his big contract and wanted to get paid a few million more than Arenas.

It was a good win tonight and great to see the whole team contribute.

[kbrury]

:lol yeah i know i was messing around a little, still never iverson could spend 33 min taking only 9 or 10 shots

If Iverson only took 10 shots in a game his head would have exploded.

[Brazil]

Clearly, he's following this thread VERY closely and decided to address his critics.


As to your point, I compared Parker to those players because they all are shoot first point guards. I raised the point that one can dominate the ball and average a high number of assists as Iverson did, yet it still doesn't mean they are good passers. You seem proud of Parker's assists yet dismissive of other shoot first point guards who often average more assists while dominating the ball even more, which was my original point: assists numbers alone don't tell the whole story.

Anyway, comparing Parker to those two can only go so far because they played in different scenarios, often with poor coaching, and most importantly - they didn't play next to the best player of recent memory, Tim Duncan. I see no reason why Arenas couldn't have played well in the Spurs system next to Tim and Manu as he was an excellent scorer and shooter. In fact, Tony often compared himself to Arenas, especially when he was lobbying for his big contract and wanted to get paid a few million more than Arenas.

It was a good win tonight and great to see the whole team contribute.

I disagree but I understand your point. It's all good.

I still think that you underestimate TP passing ability, put tony on a D'antony team he will average 3 to 4 more assists a game but he is no steve nash we all agree with that.
Lastly your arenas / iverson comparaison is reasonably unfair.

Point is obviously tp is trying to adapt, I think pop asks him to be more ball distributor early in the game to have the whole group involved. I recognized tonite the TP in the French NT being quiet trying to distribute, personnally I'm not a big fan I prefer see him being aggressive but I'm ok with that if the team is better.

[The Truth #6]

We all see each others points of views. This is good. The spurs won as a team and Tony contributed to that, which is even better.

[Cry Havoc]

Clearly, he's following this thread VERY closely and decided to address his critics.


As to your point, I compared Parker to those players because they all are shoot first point guards. I raised the point that one can dominate the ball and average a high number of assists as Iverson did, yet it still doesn't mean they are good passers. You seem proud of Parker's assists yet dismissive of other shoot first point guards who often average more assists while dominating the ball even more, which was my original point: assists numbers alone don't tell the whole story.

Anyway, comparing Parker to those two can only go so far because they played in different scenarios, often with poor coaching, and most importantly - they didn't play next to the best player of recent memory, Tim Duncan. I see no reason why Arenas couldn't have played well in the Spurs system next to Tim and Manu as he was an excellent scorer and shooter. In fact, Tony often compared himself to Arenas, especially when he was lobbying for his big contract and wanted to get paid a few million more than Arenas.

It was a good win tonight and great to see the whole team contribute.

The difference between those PGs and Parker is that Parker scores, a lot, and at a VERY high rate. He gets to the rim. He makes layups. Regardless of what you think about his passing abilities, Parker making a relatively uncontested layup is better than ANY shot he's going to get for ANY player outside of a dunk. If Parker gets to the rack with no defender in position, you WANT him taking a lot of shots, because it's by far the best look you are likely to get in the 24 seconds you have.

Meanwhile AI, Arenas, and other PGs that "dominate the ball" (which is humorous, it's called the point guard for a reason) CANNOT be compared to Tony because they don't score with nearly the efficiency that he does. Over the course of a single season, an 8% difference (0's career to Tony's) equates out to about 160 points, or 120 shot attempts fewer. This balloons to well over 200 points and 140+ shots if you match Tony's career scoring % vs. Iverson's. Say whatever you want about Tony, 160 points over a season could very well be the difference between being 25 games over .500 and a .500 record. So no, I don't agree with the similarities between Arenas/Iverson vs. Tony. Would equating Antoine Walker to Ray Allen or Reggie Miller (using the idea that they both shoot a lot of 3 pointers) be a fair comparison? You can't just suddenly disregard such a huge statistical difference because it's an inconvenient stat that doesn't fit the idea that you're attempting to convey.

This is of course, to say nothing at all as to the effect Tony has on the defense, who has to scheme for him as much and probably more now than they do for Duncan. Parker's relentless drives to the hoop open the floor up for other teammates.

---

Yes. I realize that he has bad games. I'm curious as to what Spurs player doesn't? What is infuriating is that pseudo-Spurs fans on this board commenting en masse about how we need to "Trade Tony" or that he needs to completely change his game to be acceptable as a point within the Spurs offense. This kind of ignorance is galling, because it reeks of elitism, and Spurs fans who aren't happy unless Duncan or Manu gets the ball in every single possession.

Parker is our engine. Everyone in the Spurs organization seems to recognize this. He consistently gives us our best scoring option in every game. Pop knows it, Duncan will freely say it, a lot of fans seem to know it.... but a very noticeable number of individuals on this site seem to think Parker is just not a "true" point guard, so they take every possible opportunity to rip on him. These seem to frequently coincide with individuals who only care about stats, rather than actually looking at how an individual performs. If Tony was averaging 10 and 10, for some reason I feel like those same individuals would be applauding how "selfless" of a star he's become. But actually, I wonder if Tony could ever have those Spurs "fans" cheering him on, instead of resenting him for becoming the primary offense, supplanting the beloved Duncan.

[ElNono]

TP is CLEARLY listening to the haters here and adjusting his game accordingly... :lol

[Solid D]

Riddle: What goes "dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble-dribble, dribble, cross-over dribble, reverse dribble, dribble-dribble, spin swoosh, splash!"?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Answer: Matt Bonner bailing out Tony Parker again with a another three as the shot-clock expires. Assist goes to Parker.

:smokin

[Pauleta14]

The difference between those PGs and Parker is that Parker scores, a lot, and at a VERY high rate. He gets to the rim. He makes layups. Regardless of what you think about his passing abilities, Parker making a relatively uncontested layup is better than ANY shot he's going to get for ANY player outside of a dunk. If Parker gets to the rack with no defender in position, you WANT him taking a lot of shots, because it's by far the best look you are likely to get in the 24 seconds you have.

Meanwhile AI, Arenas, and other PGs that "dominate the ball" (which is humorous, it's called the point guard for a reason) CANNOT be compared to Tony because they don't score with nearly the efficiency that he does. Over the course of a single season, an 8% difference (0's career to Tony's) equates out to about 160 points, or 120 shot attempts fewer. This balloons to well over 200 points and 140+ shots if you match Tony's career scoring % vs. Iverson's. Say whatever you want about Tony, 160 points over a season could very well be the difference between being 25 games over .500 and a .500 record. So no, I don't agree with the similarities between Arenas/Iverson vs. Tony. Would equating Antoine Walker to Ray Allen or Reggie Miller (using the idea that they both shoot a lot of 3 pointers) be a fair comparison? You can't just suddenly disregard such a huge statistical difference because it's an inconvenient stat that doesn't fit the idea that you're attempting to convey.

This is of course, to say nothing at all as to the effect Tony has on the defense, who has to scheme for him as much and probably more now than they do for Duncan. Parker's relentless drives to the hoop open the floor up for other teammates.

---

Yes. I realize that he has bad games. I'm curious as to what Spurs player doesn't? What is infuriating is that pseudo-Spurs fans on this board commenting en masse about how we need to "Trade Tony" or that he needs to completely change his game to be acceptable as a point within the Spurs offense. This kind of ignorance is galling, because it reeks of elitism, and Spurs fans who aren't happy unless Duncan or Manu gets the ball in every single possession.

Parker is our engine. Everyone in the Spurs organization seems to recognize this. He consistently gives us our best scoring option in every game. Pop knows it, Duncan will freely say it, a lot of fans seem to know it.... but a very noticeable number of individuals on this site seem to think Parker is just not a "true" point guard, so they take every possible opportunity to rip on him. These seem to frequently coincide with individuals who only care about stats, rather than actually looking at how an individual performs. If Tony was averaging 10 and 10, for some reason I feel like those same individuals would be applauding how "selfless" of a star he's become. But actually, I wonder if Tony could ever have those Spurs "fans" cheering him on, instead of resenting him for becoming the primary offense, supplanting the beloved Duncan.


:tu


This should be starting a thread!!!! :lol

I hope there will be as many fans as possible, who don't give Tony the credits he deserves, that read this.
It's not the question of being a TP homer or hater, it's about UNDERSTANDING what he brings to the team...
I guess there will always be players whom we "blindly" see their qualities or defaults, I feel sorry for Tony that he belongs to the 2nd category...

By the way, thanks for taking the time, it was clear" and wised! :toast

[TDMVPDPOY]

the problem with tp with the rest of the elite pgs in the league is what they do when in possession of the ball, are they hurting their teams performance in regards to other players on the court.....

for example nash or cp3 who clearly have the ball most of the time in there hands, so what happens when they are getting theirs while the rest isnt gettin any cause over dominance with the ball or sometimes not selfish enough with the ball....no balance with the ball in terms of creating the offense for themselves or the team...

this has been discussed many times....

[ElNono]

The difference between those PGs and Parker is that Parker scores, a lot, and at a VERY high rate. He gets to the rim. He makes layups. Regardless of what you think about his passing abilities, Parker making a relatively uncontested layup is better than ANY shot he's going to get for ANY player outside of a dunk. If Parker gets to the rack with no defender in position, you WANT him taking a lot of shots, because it's by far the best look you are likely to get in the 24 seconds you have.

Meanwhile AI, Arenas, and other PGs that "dominate the ball" (which is humorous, it's called the point guard for a reason) CANNOT be compared to Tony because they don't score with nearly the efficiency that he does. Over the course of a single season, an 8% difference (0's career to Tony's) equates out to about 160 points, or 120 shot attempts fewer. This balloons to well over 200 points and 140+ shots if you match Tony's career scoring % vs. Iverson's. Say whatever you want about Tony, 160 points over a season could very well be the difference between being 25 games over .500 and a .500 record. So no, I don't agree with the similarities between Arenas/Iverson vs. Tony. Would equating Antoine Walker to Ray Allen or Reggie Miller (using the idea that they both shoot a lot of 3 pointers) be a fair comparison? You can't just suddenly disregard such a huge statistical difference because it's an inconvenient stat that doesn't fit the idea that you're attempting to convey.

This is of course, to say nothing at all as to the effect Tony has on the defense, who has to scheme for him as much and probably more now than they do for Duncan. Parker's relentless drives to the hoop open the floor up for other teammates.


Not to knock entirely on your point, but, none of those guys above had Duncan in his prime opening up the lane for them. Not to mention they've been number 1 option throughout their careers, while Tony has been number 2/3 up until last season.
Meaning, you can't really compare them because defenses were set up entirely to stop those two guys you mentions above, where against the Spurs, the onus always have been how to stop Duncan then control everybody else.

[anakha]

the onus always have been how to stop Duncan then control everybody else.

Not that I'm disagreeing with your main point, but this hasn't been the case for the past couple of seasons.

[ElNono]

Not that I'm disagreeing with your main point, but this hasn't been the case for the past couple of seasons.

Everything starts and ends with Duncan commanding attention in the paint though. You just can't slack off him. Tony has actually become a much more complete player since he developed his mid range jumper. He also improved a lot finishing at the basket since his early seasons in the league.

[spursfan09]

Over the past few years, Tony has been considered the head of the snake,and he has been the key to slowing or stopping the Spurs.

Oh and to all the fans who don't think we appreciate TP. We all love Tony here in SA. I think there are few who don't like the whole hollywood stuff he brings, but I think he does a great job of separating that from basketball. Don't worry, when I go the games many of fans cheer and clap for him! :tu

[anakha]

Everything starts and ends with Duncan commanding attention in the paint though. You just can't slack off him. Tony has actually become a much more complete player since he developed his mid range jumper. He also improved a lot finishing at the basket since his early seasons in the league.

What I was referring to was that opposing teams' coaches have stated in the past that they gameplan for Parker first, while trying single coverage on Duncan to start the game.

Of course Duncan is what makes everything go on both ends of the floor, I'm just pointing out that stopping Duncan first and foremost hasn't been most teams' priority in the recent past.

[Cry Havoc]

Not to knock entirely on your point, but, none of those guys above had Duncan in his prime opening up the lane for them. Not to mention they've been number 1 option throughout their careers, while Tony has been number 2/3 up until last season.
Meaning, you can't really compare them because defenses were set up entirely to stop those two guys you mentions above, where against the Spurs, the onus always have been how to stop Duncan then control everybody else.

I'm sorry, how, exactly, does that make Parker less efficient of a scorer?

Ball goes in hole. That's all that matters. Parker does it better than almost any PG in terms of efficiency.

Again. If you're comparing three-point shooters, are you going to say that Antoine Walker is as good as Robert Horry or Steve Kerr, using the argument that, "Well, Kerr and Horry had Shaq and Jordan and Duncan kicking it out to them on the perimeter, so OBVIOUSLY Walker can shoot just as well as they can."?

It's lamentable that Iverson has never played alongside a player like Duncan in his career, but that's true for almost every player in the league. It does not suddenly mean his 40% shooting is worth more as a percentage. A missed shot is still a missed shot, and it hurts the team. If the shot has less of a chance to go in than the team averages from the field, it could technically be considered a "bad" shot. If Matt Bonner is left alone at the hoop 27 times during the game, guess what? I want him taking 27+ shots, regardless of his lack of athleticism.

I could also point out to you how many point guards around the league play with a talented big that the opposition has to respect and never even sniff Parker's numbers. I do believe he and Chris Paul were the only players to average over 20 and 6 last year, though I'm calling this from memory.

[kace]

Everything starts and ends with Duncan commanding attention in the paint though. You just can't slack off him. Tony has actually become a much more complete player since he developed his mid range jumper. He also improved a lot finishing at the basket since his early seasons in the league.

Tony's and manu's numbers have nothing to do with Tim. That's just plain bullshit.

The spurs having succes has a lot to do with Tim, obviously, but tony and manu can put up great numbers and have great games without Tim.

They have made that several times with Duncan injured. That's just a myth brought by Tim's fans to underestimate TP or Manu level and status.

Indeed, each of the big three would without a doubt have greater individual performances without the others. Role players, like Bonner, take advantage of the attention commanded by the stars though.

[ElNono]

I'm sorry, how, exactly, does that make Parker less efficient of a scorer?

It doesn't. It does the opposite. Having Duncan opening lanes for him makes him a more efficient scorer, considering that layups are probably the highest percentage shot in basketball.


It's lamentable that Iverson has never played alongside a player like Duncan in his career, but that's true for almost every player in the league. It does not suddenly mean his 40% shooting is worth more of a percentage.

The question is, if AI had somebody to deflect a lot of attention off him, and open up lanes for him to drive, would he have been a more efficient scorer than he is? I have little doubt he would have. And this is not a knock on Tony, but you just can't pretend that Tim is not there.


I could also point out to you how many point guards around the league play with a talented big that the opposition has to respect and never even sniff Parker's numbers. I do believe he and Chris Paul were the only players to average over 20 and 6 last year, though I'm calling this from memory.

But they do produce similar numbers. A high points per game number is actually nothing to be proud for a point guard unless it's WAY over what other PGs are scoring out there.
Assists, on the other hand, count as roughly 2.5 points and get teammates involved, which is kind of the function of a PG.

So a Steve Nash, who averaged 15.7PPG and 9.7APG, actually produced about the same amount of points for his team last season than Tony's 22 and 7. Deron Williams, at 19.4 and 10.7 actually produced more points than Tony last season.

A guy like Rondo, who is the third/fourth offensive option on the Celtics, produced only about 7 less PPG last season than Tony.

Now, there's no question that Tony is among the elite PGs in the league.
I think only Deron and CP3 are a small notch above, and Tony can definitely hold his own against them.

[ElNono]

Tony's and manu's numbers have nothing to do with Tim. That's just plain bullshit.

The spurs having succes has a lot to do with Tim, obviously, but tony and manu can put up great numbers and have great games without Tim.

They have made that several times with Duncan injured. That's just a myth brought by Tim's fans to underestimate TP or Manu level and status.

Indeed, each of the big three would without a doubt have greater individual performances without the others. Role players, like Bonner, take advantage of the attention commanded by the stars though.

I mostly disagree. But, OK.

[Cry Havoc]

It doesn't. It does the opposite. Having Duncan opening lanes for him makes him a more efficient scorer, considering that layups are probably the highest percentage shot in basketball.

Tony scores a lot when Duncan is out of the game too. Obviously Duncan's presence helps, but it is not the primary catalyst for Tony destroying defenses. Being the fastest PG in the league to the rim is.


The question is, if AI had somebody to deflect a lot of attention off him, and open up lanes for him to drive, would he have been a more efficient scorer than he is? I have little doubt he would have. And this is not a knock on Tony, but you just can't pretend that Tim is not there.

No, the question in this thread is why Spurs fans are ripping on Tony for "dominating the ball" and being a ball-hog. My point was that Tony scores extremely efficiently and thus does not deserve to be compared to AI. Regardless of who he played with, AI shot 40% for his career. Parker scores a lot at an extremely high rate, and gets a lot of assists, therefore he works wonderfully well within the Spurs offense. This counters other points in the thread that he needs to change his game.



But they do produce similar numbers. A high points per game number is actually nothing to be proud for a point guard unless it's WAY over what other PGs are scoring out there.

This makes no sense. Scoring 30 PPG on 30% is nothing to be proud of.

Scoring 22 PPG on 50+% shooting, as Parker did last season, is an amazing accomplishment and something Parker SHOULD be proud of.


Assists, on the other hand, count as roughly 2.5 points and get teammates involved, which is kind of the function of a PG.

Tony was 11th in the NBA last year in assists per game.


So a Steve Nash, who averaged 15.7PPG and 9.7APG, actually produced about the same amount of points for his team last season than Tony's 22 and 7. Deron Williams, at 19.4 and 10.7 actually produced more points than Tony last season.

So let me get this straight.

Tony Parker = Steve Nash but with hellaciously better defense?

I'm sorry, how does this go against what I'm saying about how amazing Parker is?


A guy like Rondo, who is the third/fourth offensive option on the Celtics, produced only about 7 less PPG last season than Tony.

This statline is not really worth a lot on it's own, sorry.


Now, there's no question that Tony is among the elite PGs in the league.
I think only Deron and CP3 are a small notch above, and Tony can definitely hold his own against them.

Yet we still have "trade Tony" threads, and people like The Truth who think Parker is nothing special. Even when he puts up 32/7, there are still detractors talking about how he should be a "pure" point-guard and until then the Spurs will not win as a team.

[ElNono]

Tony scores a lot when Duncan is out of the game too. Obviously Duncan's presence helps, but it is not the primary catalyst for Tony destroying defenses. Being the fastest PG in the league to the rim is.

Actually, that title should go to Aaron Brooks these days, but I digress. Yes, I do agree that his quickness is what makes him an elite PG above all else. He is also one of the best players in the league playing off the pick and roll (with or without TD).


No, the question in this thread is why Spurs fans are ripping on Tony for "dominating the ball" and being a ball-hog. My point was that Tony scores extremely efficiently and thus does not deserve to be compared to AI. Regardless of who he played with, AI shot 40% for his career. Parker scores a lot at an extremely high rate, and gets a lot of assists, therefore he works wonderfully well within the Spurs offense. This counters other points in the thread that he needs to change his game.

I agree with you in that I don't think you can compare them because AI was the number one option on his team throughout his career. Something Tony only started to do about a season or two ago. I don't think AI also had the help of 3 HOF'ers throughout his career either. Yet, at around Tony's current age, AI was taking a Philly team to the NBA Finals as the man on that team. They have had very different roles. I don't think you can simply compare them side by side.


This makes no sense. Scoring 30 PPG on 30% is nothing to be proud of.Scoring 22 PPG on 50+% shooting, as Parker did last season, is an amazing accomplishment and something Parker SHOULD be proud of.

If Tony could score at that percentage on every possession, then we would never ever lose a game again. The difference is that on some games, the lane is not open to Tony (or Manu). So we have options. We can go with Tim, or we can hurl 3 pointers. We luckily have a system that attempts to maximize our strengths depending on what the defense gives us.
You'll have to help me remember, but I don't think AI every had anything like that in Philly. He was the head of the snake, and they gave him the ball and told him to do something with it. The fact he averaged 27 PPG in his career under those conditions is actually pretty incredible once you give it some thought.



Tony was 11th in the NBA last year in assists per game.
So let me get this straight.
Tony Parker = Steve Nash but with hellaciously better defense?
I'm sorry, how does this go against what I'm saying about how amazing Parker is?


I wouldn't say Tony is like Nash at all. They might produce the same amount of points for their teams, but they do it in a completely different way.
And I think that's exactly what some people (not the trolls) are talking about here. On any given possession, Tony is most likely to dribble up, play pick and roll and score himself. On any given possession, Nash is most likely to dribble around until he can hand an easy bucket to a teammate. They both end up counting for 2 points, as far as that particular possession goes.
Some people will argue that the latter is better than the former, since it gets other people involved and in rhythm. It's truly debatable.
Tony is undeniably an elite point guard, IMO. He has his type of game that gets it done and wins us games. He's not perfect, but neither is any of the other elite point guards (like you said, Nash is actually horrible on defense).


Yet we still have "trade Tony" threads, and people like The Truth who think Parker is nothing special. Even when he puts up 32/7, there are still detractors talking about how he should be a "pure" point-guard and until then the Spurs will not win as a team.

I think Parker is an unbelievable talent and we're obviously better WITH him. That said, the over-the-top criticism is very common around here. Trade Duncan threads have not been uncommon this past offseason.
But if you actually get defensive about them instead of letting the games speak for themselves, then you're simply feeding the trolls.

[The Truth #6]

Last I wrote it seemed as if some peace had broken out and there was a semblance of agreeing to disagree and all that, but as Cry Havoc is part of the 24 hour security team that monitors this thread, constantly probing for new ways to imply that Parker is being slighted, Cry Havoc goes off on a tangent about fg% and Iverson.

The whole point of bringing up Iverson and Arenas was to show that point guards can get high assist numbers but that doesn't mean they are good passers or focus on getting other players involved. And the only reason I brought that up was because of an accusation towards me that stated Tony isn't a good passer. Cry Havoc sees Iverson's name and takes a detour into comparing scoring efficiency because that's the easiest route and has nothing to do with where the discussion is headed.

No one disputes that Tony can't score - it's about passing and having a team game. Tony did a better job this last game, though I get the sense from the Parker Security Team that Tony wasn't aggressive because he didn't score enough points.

[Cry Havoc]

Last I wrote it seemed as if some peace had broken out and there was a semblance of agreeing to disagree and all that, but as Cry Havoc is part of the 24 hour security team that monitors this thread, constantly probing for new ways to imply that Parker is being slighted, Cry Havoc goes off on a tangent about fg% and Iverson.

Peace? This isn't a war. ElNono and I are/were having a very civil discussion about some relatively minor points regarding how Parker plays.

As for monitoring it, you know, being the person that started the thread, god forbid I actually reply in it. :(


The whole point of bringing up Iverson and Arenas was to show that point guards can get high assist numbers but that doesn't mean they are good passers or focus on getting other players involved. And the only reason I brought that up was because of an accusation towards me that stated Tony isn't a good passer. Cry Havoc sees Iverson's name and takes a detour into comparing scoring efficiency because that's the easiest route and has nothing to do with where the discussion is headed.


No, the whole point of bringing up Iverson was via the idea that Tony is a ball hog. Which is completely acceptable if his ball hogging winds up with 20+ points per game on 50% shooting and 6+ assists. That means he isn't dominating the ball too much, as he doesn't need to shoot a lot of shots to make the 20 PPG when he scores so frequently.


No one disputes that Tony can't score - it's about passing and having a team game. Tony did a better job this last game, though I get the sense from the Parker Security Team that Tony wasn't aggressive because he didn't score enough points.

So, do you actually want to have a discussion or just break out the histrionics because someone disagrees with you? Again, it's downright shameful that I'm replying frequently to a thread that I started.

Perhaps you should worry less about my reply button and more about providing actual facts or reasoning to back up your opinion that Parker = Iverson = Arenas. All I see here are aspersions cast on me for actually bringing stats and an opinion that differs from your own into the situation.


--------------



Actually, that title should go to Aaron Brooks these days, but I digress. Yes, I do agree that his quickness is what makes him an elite PG above all else. He is also one of the best players in the league playing off the pick and roll (with or without TD).

I think Parker is still at 75% speed right now, but when he was going strong last year, I have never seen anyone faster to the rack from the three point line than Tony. I've maybe seen a few players as fast -- but I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone who's clearly faster than he is.


I agree with you in that I don't think you can compare them because AI was the number one option on his team throughout his career. Something Tony only started to do about a season or two ago. I don't think AI also had the help of 3 HOF'ers throughout his career either. Yet, at around Tony's current age, AI was taking a Philly team to the NBA Finals as the man on that team. They have had very different roles. I don't think you can simply compare them side by side.

And you could also make the argument that had AI played on the Spurs in the early part of this century, he would have also been the #2 option on the Spurs, because no one was going to be more of a force or defensive focus than Duncan, especially on a team so predicated on slowing the pace of the game to keep defense at a premium. So just like you can't really take away anything from Iverson for struggling to score consistently at times, I don't think you can take anything away from Parker for not being the dominant scoring threat of the Spurs. He showed last year that he could do that and still score consistently, control the pace of games, destroy other team's defensive schemes, and still get other players involved.


If Tony could score at that percentage on every possession, then we would never ever lose a game again. The difference is that on some games, the lane is not open to Tony (or Manu). So we have options. We can go with Tim, or we can hurl 3 pointers. We luckily have a system that attempts to maximize our strengths depending on what the defense gives us.
You'll have to help me remember, but I don't think AI every had anything like that in Philly. He was the head of the snake, and they gave him the ball and told him to do something with it. The fact he averaged 27 PPG in his career under those conditions is actually pretty incredible once you give it some thought.

I agree with this. AI was absolutely brilliant during his career in Philly. Probably more heart than any player I've ever seen on a court. I was waiting for him to break a leg so he'd be hurt all of a quarter before returning to the court to finish the game.

However, Parker's numbers last year are pretty incredible in their own right. There have been dozens of great point guards in the past with great interior scoring threats and yet haven't made it even close to 50% scoring for a season with 20+ PPG.



I wouldn't say Tony is like Nash at all. They might produce the same amount of points for their teams, but they do it in a completely different way.
And I think that's exactly what some people (not the trolls) are talking about here. On any given possession, Tony is most likely to dribble up, play pick and roll and score himself. On any given possession, Nash is most likely to dribble around until he can hand an easy bucket to a teammate. They both end up counting for 2 points, as far as that particular possession goes.
Some people will argue that the latter is better than the former, since it gets other people involved and in rhythm. It's truly debatable.
Tony is undeniably an elite point guard, IMO. He has his type of game that gets it done and wins us games. He's not perfect, but neither is any of the other elite point guards (like you said, Nash is actually horrible on defense).

My point was that you were citing that Parker isn't necessarily as dominant as I was suggesting because he only gets 7 PPG more for his team than Rondo, but at the same time you stated that Nash -- a fantastic pure PG -- gets his team roughly the same number of points as TP. Which is a tribute to how awesome Tony is, even if Nash and Parker have different play styles. Especially when you consider that Tony is a much better defender.


I think Parker is an unbelievable talent and we're obviously better WITH him. That said, the over-the-top criticism is very common around here. Trade Duncan threads have not been uncommon this past offseason.
But if you actually get defensive about them instead of letting the games speak for themselves, then you're simply feeding the trolls.

This is a good point, and I really have to agree with you here. Well-put.

However, when Tony starts to dominate again this season it's still a lot of fun to call certain posters out for their ridiculous threads. :lol

[superbigtime]

Tony plays his heart out for this city and this team. He has made so many clutch shots, it is countless. I don't understand how anyone can have a real gripe with him. I think they are small minded French haters. Untimely turnovers have happened sure, but that occurs with all primary ballhandlers.

[ElNono]

And you could also make the argument that had AI played on the Spurs in the early part of this century, he would have also been the #2 option on the Spurs, because no one was going to be more of a force or defensive focus than Duncan, especially on a team so predicated on slowing the pace of the game to keep defense at a premium.

I don't think you can really make that argument. Not because there's any discussion about who is best between Duncan and Iverson, but because AI would simply not accept that role. He wouldn't accept that role right now that his career is clearly on the downside. Back then, he was still the league top's scorer and he was winning big. Just another facet of why you really can't really compare AI and TP overall. There are some similarities here and there, but the roles were/are too different.


So just like you can't really take away anything from Iverson for struggling to score consistently at times, I don't think you can take anything away from Parker for not being the dominant scoring threat of the Spurs. He showed last year that he could do that and still score consistently, control the pace of games, destroy other team's defensive schemes, and still get other players involved.

I don't think people try to take anything away from Tony as far as scoring prowess goes. I think the criticism has more to do with what his mindset is considering the position he plays. Tony is a guy, and particularly in this he's just like AI, that when the ball is in his hands, he's looking to score first, pass second. I think that if he would be playing SG (people would then bitch that he's undersized to play the two, but let's pretend here for a second they wouldn't) then that mindset wouldn't be an issue.


However, Parker's numbers last year are pretty incredible in their own right. There have been dozens of great point guards in the past with great interior scoring threats and yet haven't made it even close to 50% scoring for a season with 20+ PPG.

Because the PG position has traditionally been reserved for players that share the ball, not scorers. Guys like Nash, Kidd, DWill, CP3... they're pretty good scorers, but their assist numbers are what tell the tale on how good they are. For 20+ PPG on 50% scoring you need to look at guys in other positions. Actually, look at Richard Jefferson numbers career-wise, and you'll see a guy that pretty much has averaged that. Obviously, Richard always has been a scorer.

Tony was great last year, there's no discussing that. He elevated his game when the team needed it the most, and that's all you can really ask from him. Eventually, you win or lose series with your defense (IMO), and ours was not up to par.


My point was that you were citing that Parker isn't necessarily as dominant as I was suggesting because he only gets 7 PPG more for his team than Rondo, but at the same time you stated that Nash -- a fantastic pure PG -- gets his team roughly the same number of points as TP. Which is a tribute to how awesome Tony is, even if Nash and Parker have different play styles. Especially when you consider that Tony is a much better defender.

Sure, but think about this for a second: Nash dishes out to other people and that other people get in a rhythm and a flow. Tony prefers to score himself instead. Now, when both of them sit down, whose offense suffers the most?
If there's anything you can to credit Mike D'Antoni for during his Suns years, is that he really knew how to exploit this against average defensive teams. He would kick start the offense with Nash, then bring in Barbosa, who is also more of a scorer than a PG, and everybody was already in rhythm and knocking down shots. Then, when the offense stagnated a bit, back in goes Nash. Obviously, this didn't work well against good defensive teams since that's what good defensive teams do: break your flow and your rhythm.

[DaBears]

This has been mentioned a million times already but still some how the powers at be just cant see past the all might dollar bill... But TP has and always will be a shoot first PG. This current roster has plenty of Scorers and since this is a new look spurs team they need a guard that can create and involve there teammates, none of which TP is customed to doing.. Point taken is RJ while some is his own fault more than half the blame should lay on Tp's shoulders cause Tony doesnt even look his way when thier on the court together.. TP has to passing methods in his arsenal, which are the drive to the basket and look to either corner for a 3, and other is pick and pop by TD.. if you notice TP doesnt pass any other times or tries to create for his own teammates..

Now i am not a Tp basher though it may sound like it i am really not.. I just hink he needs to adjust his game to be more of a pass first PG or get some one that can be..

You can win a championship with an average or descent PG who can pass well. ie...(AJ)

A must too win a championship is a Big who can play "D" which we have all other parts are interchangable.

Long live the SPURS....

[mathbzh]

Tony's and manu's numbers have nothing to do with Tim. That's just plain bullshit.

The spurs having succes has a lot to do with Tim, obviously, but tony and manu can put up great numbers and have great games without Tim.

They have made that several times with Duncan injured. That's just a myth brought by Tim's fans to underestimate TP or Manu level and status.

Indeed, each of the big three would without a doubt have greater individual performances without the others. Role players, like Bonner, take advantage of the attention commanded by the stars though.
I mostly disagree. But, OK.


Why do you disagree?
I just checked, last year Tony played 6 games without TD.
His stats for these 6 games:
29.5 pts (51 FG%) 8.5 ast

Unless you have facts proving he cant, we can assume Tony can score with efficiency with and without Duncan (It does not mean Duncan is not necessary to the team success).

[bus driver]

And his 30 points through 3 quarters.

Funny how the haters are never around when he's dominating.


i used to be a parker hater, i even wanted him (dare i say) traded.....:bang

but now i am on the parker bus!

:flag:

[Cry Havoc]

I don't think you can really make that argument. Not because there's any discussion about who is best between Duncan and Iverson, but because AI would simply not accept that role. He wouldn't accept that role right now that his career is clearly on the downside. Back then, he was still the league top's scorer and he was winning big. Just another facet of why you really can't really compare AI and TP overall. There are some similarities here and there, but the roles were/are too different.

Agreed, the comparison is just not up to par. Though it should be mentioned that Tony clearly accepted the role of "student" until Duncan was ready to slow down a bit and become less of an offensive focus. To me, that means he was willing to put the team ahead of his own statline at the end of the game, which hints that perhaps scoring isn't everything to Tony.




I don't think people try to take anything away from Tony as far as scoring prowess goes. I think the criticism has more to do with what his mindset is considering the position he plays. Tony is a guy, and particularly in this he's just like AI, that when the ball is in his hands, he's looking to score first, pass second. I think that if he would be playing SG (people would then bitch that he's undersized to play the two, but let's pretend here for a second they wouldn't) then that mindset wouldn't be an issue.

Here I respectfully disagree. I think Tony is looking to score first and pass second. I think Iverson is looking to score first, score second, score third, throw up a wild shot fourth, and then maybe pass.

I really, really strongly feel that Parker is going to take what the defense gives him. He's going to try to find a weakness and exploit it for easy points. Does Tony force things at time? Absolutely. However, so does every Superstar who's ever played -- Duncan included.


Because the PG position has traditionally been reserved for players that share the ball, not scorers. Guys like Nash, Kidd, DWill, CP3... they're pretty good scorers, but their assist numbers are what tell the tale on how good they are. For 20+ PPG on 50% scoring you need to look at guys in other positions. Actually, look at Richard Jefferson numbers career-wise, and you'll see a guy that pretty much has averaged that. Obviously, Richard always has been a scorer.

It's still worth pointing out that we have a point guard who scores at 50%+ and that is a rare thing.


Tony was great last year, there's no discussing that. He elevated his game when the team needed it the most, and that's all you can really ask from him. Eventually, you win or lose series with your defense (IMO), and ours was not up to par.

:toast



Sure, but think about this for a second: Nash dishes out to other people and that other people get in a rhythm and a flow. Tony prefers to score himself instead. Now, when both of them sit down, whose offense suffers the most?
If there's anything you can to credit Mike D'Antoni for during his Suns years, is that he really knew how to exploit this against average defensive teams. He would kick start the offense with Nash, then bring in Barbosa, who is also more of a scorer than a PG, and everybody was already in rhythm and knocking down shots. Then, when the offense stagnated a bit, back in goes Nash. Obviously, this didn't work well against good defensive teams since that's what good defensive teams do: break your flow and your rhythm.

If the knock you're bringing about on Tony Parker is that Nash is a more talented offensive player, congratulations. I completely agree with you.

But how many players in NBA HISTORY have the offensive skillset of Nash? It's probably countable on one hand. And he still sucks on defense. Tony Parker will never have the offensive awareness of CP3 or Nash because almost no one in the history of the league has that ability. But ripping on Tony (not saying you are, just if you're referring to the discontent) because he isn't as good of a passer as the aforementioned is not really fair, IMO. Deron, Nash, and CP3 are three of the best prototypical point guards the NBA has seen in years or decades.

Tony still distributes. He gets assists. I just wish people could be happy with watching one of the fastest, best finishers at the rim they will ever see with their own eyes. He'd be fun to watch if he were a Maverick to me, because his ability to score inside and put just the right rotation on the ball to get around a taller, longer defender is something so incredibly rare.

[Josepatches_]

Tony is a great player but Duncan made him better than he really is.Same Manu.These 2 guys were lucky to play for the San Antonio Spurs.

We could have another TP or Manu.There are more players with their talent in the league but there is only one TD
And that's always happen with teammates of the greatest players.Pippen wasn't as good as one of the top50 of the history,who was Odom or Gasol before Kobe? Hardaway after Shaq (injuries apart) ?

There are many players with the same or more talent than TP but they never could have chance to win the NBA.Of course he is pretty good but he's not the key of our success.


So the Spurs aren't better without Parker but if TP never had played for the Spurs I'm sure we would have other PG as good for the team as he is.But Of course right now there is not PG better than TP for the team

[ElNono]

Agreed, the comparison is just not up to par. Though it should be mentioned that Tony clearly accepted the role of "student" until Duncan was ready to slow down a bit and become less of an offensive focus. To me, that means he was willing to put the team ahead of his own statline at the end of the game, which hints that perhaps scoring isn't everything to Tony.

Sure. Tony also had to put up with many years of Pop-Rage(tm) and Pop-DogHouse(tm). Tony made himself into the player he is today. Unlike Iverson, or other talented guys out there, he wasn't a number 1 pick, or a lock to get drafted. He had to go through camps, etc.


Here I respectfully disagree. I think Tony is looking to score first and pass second. I think Iverson is looking to score first, score second, score third, throw up a wild shot fourth, and then maybe pass.

I really, really strongly feel that Parker is going to take what the defense gives him. He's going to try to find a weakness and exploit it for easy points. Does Tony force things at time? Absolutely. However, so does every Superstar who's ever played -- Duncan included.


Well, that easily attributable to TP having a coach that makes him accountable, and obviously quality teammates he trusts.
However, the actual onus of my point stands: TP has a scorer mentality. That's normally a SG mentality. A traditional PG mentality is to use the first 10-15 seconds of the possession trying to get your teammates an easy basket (when not running a set play), then doing the scoring on your own if nothing is there. It's a lot like a quarterback in football, and the position has indeed drawn comparisons for a reason.


It's still worth pointing out that we have a point guard who scores at 50%+ and that is a rare thing.

Anybody at any position scoring over 50+% is great and fairly rare.


If the knock you're bringing about on Tony Parker is that Nash is a more talented offensive player, congratulations. I completely agree with you.
But how many players in NBA HISTORY have the offensive skillset of Nash? It's probably countable on one hand. And he still sucks on defense. Tony Parker will never have the offensive awareness of CP3 or Nash because almost no one in the history of the league has that ability. But ripping on Tony (not saying you are, just if you're referring to the discontent) because he isn't as good of a passer as the aforementioned is not really fair, IMO. Deron, Nash, and CP3 are three of the best prototypical point guards the NBA has seen in years or decades.

Well, if you want to call Tony an elite point guard, then you're going to have to deal with the fact that he's going to be compared with other elite PGs. That includes guys like CP3, Nash, Kidd, DWill, Stockton, Magic, Iverson, etc. I think a more fair comparison both for him and AI would be against SG. I think that's closer to their game.


Tony still distributes. He gets assists. I just wish people could be happy with watching one of the fastest, best finishers at the rim they will ever see with their own eyes. He'd be fun to watch if he were a Maverick to me, because his ability to score inside and put just the right rotation on the ball to get around a taller, longer defender is something so incredibly rare.

Considering speed is his greatest asset, and that's one of the first things a player loses, we better be enjoying him now before it's all gone.

[DaBears]

When it comes to Tony Parker you can sum up all you need to say with 3 words::::::::::
“PASS THE BALL”

[Cry Havoc]

Tony is a great player but Duncan made him better than he really is.Same Manu.These 2 guys were lucky to play for the San Antonio Spurs.

:rolleyes

This is the height of ignorance, and this kind of ridiculous opinion is exactly why I started this thread.

[gilmor]

Tony is a great player but Duncan made him better than he really is.Same Manu.These 2 guys were lucky to play for the San Antonio Spurs.

We could have another TP or Manu.There are more players with their talent in the league but there is only one TD
And that's always happen with teammates of the greatest players.Pippen wasn't as good as one of the top50 of the history,who was Odom or Gasol before Kobe? Hardaway after Shaq (injuries apart) ?

There are many players with the same or more talent than TP but they never could have chance to win the NBA.Of course he is pretty good but he's not the key of our success.


So the Spurs aren't better without Parker but if TP never had played for the Spurs I'm sure we would have other PG as good for the team as he is.But Of course right now there is not PG better than TP for the team

Sad.. You bitches will not be around when both Manu and Tim retires, and there is only Tony left. I think the idea of watching Spurs with only Tony as the mega-star will freaking cause you bitches sleepless nights..

Let me put it to you, if Tony were to go to Lakers to team with Kobe and Gasol, do you think Spurs will be better off?

[duhoh]

Tony is a great player but Duncan made him better than he really is.Same Manu.These 2 guys were lucky to play for the San Antonio Spurs.

:bang

so you're saying that people who can be efficient as a kobe or a healthy t-mac are easy to find?

sigh. . .

[duhoh]

:rolleyes

This is the height of ignorance, and this kind of ridiculous opinion is exactly why I started this thread.

it's ok.

the idiots point themselves out by just thinking aloud :lol

[ElNono]

Why do you disagree?
I just checked, last year Tony played 6 games without TD.
His stats for these 6 games:
29.5 pts (51 FG%) 8.5 ast

Unless you have facts proving he cant, we can assume Tony can score with efficiency with and without Duncan (It does not mean Duncan is not necessary to the team success).

That's your problem. Ginobili has also played without Tim and Tony too and scored upwards of 30 points and we've beaten teams over .500 in the process. Players normally step up their games when one of the pieces is missing. Opponents normally relax when a piece is missing. Can you expect that night in and night out over 82 game season? You simply cannot. For further reference look at the Dallas series.

[ElNono]

Sad.. You bitches will not be around when both Manu and Tim retires, and there is only Tony left. I think the idea of watching Spurs with only Tony as the mega-star will freaking cause you bitches sleepless nights..

I'll be around when Manu/Tim/Pop retire and Tony is the only one left. I will also going to have my expectations lowered several notches. Championship is going to be most likely out of the question. Tony, IMO, is an All Star caliber player. Which is no small accomplishment. However, he just isn't franchise/superstar caliber. Again, my opinion only, and I love Tony. But the reality is that there's already at least two other PGs in the league right now that are already better than Tony.


Let me put it to you, if Tony were to go to Lakers to team with Kobe and Gasol, do you think Spurs will be better off?

Well, if Tony ends up going to another team to play number 2 or 3 behind some other stars, then it will be confirmation of my point above. I'm fairly sure he'll at least give it a shot at being the man. Eventually, everybody just wants to win.

[The Truth #6]

Cry Havoc acts like this thread is about a real objective discussion, yet look at its glorious roots with the first post. Of course you're going to keep posting in this thread. You want to focus on the greatness of Parker. Yeah, we get it.

Cry Havoc runs from any discussion of a critique of Parker, such as his passing or assists but loves to talk about fg percentages and has now created a paradigm for a great point guard: 20ppg, 50% fg, and 6 assists. Hey, those are Tony's numbers!

For the millionth time, the Arenas/Iverson references were to make clear that high assist numbers don't by themselves mean someone is a good passer, yet somehow Cry Havoc takes this to mean that Tony is being thrown into the gutter along with the likes of those "awful" players Iverson and Arenas, even though they averaged more assists than Parker with much less talent around them for a good portion of their careers. I think it's clear: assist numbers don't tell the whole story. Brent Barry hardly averaged any assists on the Spurs but no one can say he was a bad passer. All you've proven is that Tony shoots at a high percentage, and we don't need your thread to already know what is obvious to everyone.

[quentin_compson]

I'll be around when Manu/Tim/Pop retire and Tony is the only one left. I will also going to have my expectations lowered several notches. Championship is going to be most likely out of the question. Tony, IMO, is an All Star caliber player. Which is no small accomplishment. However, he just isn't franchise/superstar caliber. Again, my opinion only, and I love Tony. But the reality is that there's already at least two other PGs in the league right now that are already better than Tony.



I agree, but we should also consider that PGs you can build a team around are very rare. It is just a lot easier to have a big man as your franchise player than a PG.

That being said, there aren't a lot of players I'd rather have than Tony right now. Paul and Williams would definitely work great here, Billups as well, but that's about it.

[Brazil]

I'll be around when Manu/Tim/Pop retire and Tony is the only one left. I will also going to have my expectations lowered several notches. Championship is going to be most likely out of the question. Tony, IMO, is an All Star caliber player. Which is no small accomplishment. However, he just isn't franchise/superstar caliber. Again, my opinion only, and I love Tony. But the reality is that there's already at least two other PGs in the league right now that are already better than Tony.


I think we all agree with your point even homers know that. BTW even the 2 or 3 or 4 whatever superior PGs are not capable either. Basically since several years now : no dominant big means no LOB see DW, Nash, Kidd, CP3...

For sure we can argue that CP3 is a franchise/superstar caliber and TP is not but at the end of the day the result is the same, no dominant big = no lob.

At the end of the day too tp is the good fit for the spurs and vice and versa.

[Solid D]

For sure we can argue that CP3 is a franchise/superstar caliber and TP is not but at the end of the day the result is the same, no dominant big = no lob.

At the end of the day too tp is the good fit for the spurs and vice and versa.

Is it the end of the day, yet?

:p: mlaaaa....

[Brazil]

Is it the end of the day, yet?

:p: mlaaaa....

at the end of the day my english is in great shape to achieve low level record

point is at the end of the day no big no lob no women no cries

[gilmor]

I'll be around when Manu/Tim/Pop retire and Tony is the only one left. I will also going to have my expectations lowered several notches. Championship is going to be most likely out of the question. Tony, IMO, is an All Star caliber player. Which is no small accomplishment. However, he just isn't franchise/superstar caliber. Again, my opinion only, and I love Tony. But the reality is that there's already at least two other PGs in the league right now that are already better than Tony.

Who are the franchise/superstar calibre players? Probably only a handful. Lebron, Kobe, Tim, Shaq. I won't even go so far to quote CP3 cos he is not. He won't win a ring without a strong big man backing him up. Do you think Spurs will win another ring if we were to trade for CP3, whom I think should be better than TP. Doubtful. The fact of the matter is that not every good PG can play in the Spurs system. At at this current moment, TP is probably the best PG in NBA who can excel the most in the Spurs system. And remember that, as your logic goes, we won't win another ring without Tim and Manu. That window is closing fast. I'll bet Tim won't stay longer than 3 years if we can't win it this year.



Well, if Tony ends up going to another team to play number 2 or 3 behind some other stars, then it will be confirmation of my point above. I'm fairly sure he'll at least give it a shot at being the man. Eventually, everybody just wants to win.

Does it matter if your point is confirmed? Kobe, being a mega superstar himself, won't win without his ensemble cast right now. Come on, Lebron hasn't even won a ring yet. So does it really matter if Tony is not the superstar/calibre player. He at least has 3 rings at his age.

[HarlemHeat37]

Tony's difficult to judge..

There has only been ONE player that played PG that had a higher usage % than Tony did last year, and it was Allen Iverson..Iverson did it numerous times during his career, and he put up similar assists numbers to Tony in many of those years..

Parker is a lot more comparable to combo guards, as opposed to PGs..his style is obviously suited to be a combo guard, but he's stuck in a PGs body..it's tough to compare him to guys like Steve Francis or even Iverson, because he's a lot more efficient than guys like that..

He can't be compared to guys like Paul and Williams, because he plays a different style..he's nowhere near those guys when it comes to passing, but he's arguably better than both when it comes to scoring..

He's probably one of the tougher guys to judge in the NBA, even though we get to see him play in every game..a more efficient, less athletic, less of a headcase version of Steve Francis is a decent comparison IMO..

he has to play like a legit star most nights though..currently this year, Parker has outplayed his opponent 5 times, and was outplayed 4 times..the Spurs are 5-0 when Parker outplays his opponent, not a coincidence..hopefully he can look like he did last year, where he looked like a dominant scoring PG..

[Brazil]

Tony's difficult to judge..

There has only been ONE player that played PG that had a higher usage % than Tony did last year, and it was Allen Iverson..Iverson did it numerous times during his career, and he put up similar assists numbers to Tony in many of those years..

Parker is a lot more comparable to combo guards, as opposed to PGs..his style is obviously suited to be a combo guard, but he's stuck in a PGs body..it's tough to compare him to guys like Steve Francis or even Iverson, because he's a lot more efficient than guys like that..

He can't be compared to guys like Paul and Williams, because he plays a different style..he's nowhere near those guys when it comes to passing, but he's arguably better than both when it comes to scoring..

He's probably one of the tougher guys to judge in the NBA, even though we get to see him play in every game..a more efficient, less athletic, less of a headcase version of Steve Francis is a decent comparison IMO..

he has to play like a legit star most nights though..currently this year, Parker has outplayed his opponent 5 times, and was outplayed 4 times..the Spurs are 5-0 when Parker outplays his opponent, not a coincidence..hopefully he can look like he did last year, where he looked like a dominant scoring PG..

good post. I agree he is quite unique even if I see what you mean comparing him with Francis. What is really surprising with TP is the fact that he can do the same action finishing with an easy lay up over and over during a game or even a serie. Everybody knows exactly what he is going to do but nobody can stop him, see for instance the 2007 finals.

[HarlemHeat37]

Ya he is definitely unique..he's also the by far the best little man I've ever seen at finishing at the rim without dunking..one of the best I've seen in general at finishing at the rim without dunking..

[ElNono]

I agree, but we should also consider that PGs you can build a team around are very rare. It is just a lot easier to have a big man as your franchise player than a PG.

That being said, there aren't a lot of players I'd rather have than Tony right now. Paul and Williams would definitely work great here, Billups as well, but that's about it.

Completely agree. Even if the rules has been shifting to give guards an advantage, you cannot get around the fact you still need big man(s).
And while there's a bunch of guards that would work great with us, I still think TP is the best option for us. He has been part of this core and already knows pretty much everything there's to know about how we play. He plays hard every night. I'm glad we have him.

[ElNono]

Who are the franchise/superstar calibre players? Probably only a handful. Lebron, Kobe, Tim, Shaq. I won't even go so far to quote CP3 cos he is not. He won't win a ring without a strong big man backing him up. Do you think Spurs will win another ring if we were to trade for CP3, whom I think should be better than TP. Doubtful. The fact of the matter is that not every good PG can play in the Spurs system. At at this current moment, TP is probably the best PG in NBA who can excel the most in the Spurs system. And remember that, as your logic goes, we won't win another ring without Tim and Manu. That window is closing fast. I'll bet Tim won't stay longer than 3 years if we can't win it this year.

I actually agree with almost everything you posted here. :tu


Does it matter if your point is confirmed? Kobe, being a mega superstar himself, won't win without his ensemble cast right now. Come on, Lebron hasn't even won a ring yet. So does it really matter if Tony is not the superstar/calibre player. He at least has 3 rings at his age.

Well, that's something we touched upon in an earlier post. You do need your big man(s). Now, if you switched Kobe for Tony, you think the Lakers win it all? Honestly, I don't think they do. Now, I'd love to be wrong and eat crow and Tony to be the franchise player that takes over Duncan and leads us to more titles. Today, I don't see it. Just my opinion.

[lefty]

Hey Parker and better rhyme :wow

[mathbzh]

That's your problem. Ginobili has also played without Tim and Tony too and scored upwards of 30 points and we've beaten teams over .500 in the process. Players normally step up their games when one of the pieces is missing. Opponents normally relax when a piece is missing. Can you expect that night in and night out over 82 game season? You simply cannot. For further reference look at the Dallas series.

Your point was that Parker is an efficient scorer because Tim is there.
My point is that when Tim is out, Parker is still an efficient scorer. When he plays with the French NT, he is still an efficient scorer and that in this Dallas series he was an incredible scorer.

Tony scores around 50% FG regardless of the context. Iverson doesn't.
Parker is not a perfect PG. As you stated he is not Nash when it comes to passing. But is high% scoring as nothing to do with Tim (the same goes with Manu. He doesn't need Tim when he is playing for Argentina).

The things Duncan bring to Parker are rings and maybe multiple All Star selections. But his stats would probably have been better playing for another team.

[mathbzh]

I won't even go so far to quote CP3 cos he is not. He won't win a ring without a strong big man backing him up.

If this is your criterion Kobe is not a franchise player and Lebron is barely one.
Tim and Shaq not anymore. Wade could be one but has won his ring with Shaq... well there is no franchise player.

My definition of a franchise player is rather different. He is just the guy you chose to build the team around. You sign him to a huge and long contract. You chose your other players to fit with him. And if your FO is good/lucky enough you can add a couple of all star to your team and become a contender.

[ElNono]

Your point was that Parker is an efficient scorer because Tim is there.
My point is that when Tim is out, Parker is still an efficient scorer. When he plays with the French NT, he is still an efficient scorer and that in this Dallas series he was an incredible scorer.

There's really no proof of that. You pointed out to a 6 game sample as evidence, and to me that's not enough. I don't know what his numbers are in the French NT.


Tony scores around 50% FG regardless of the context. Iverson doesn't. Parker is not a perfect PG. As you stated he is not Nash when it comes to passing. But is high% scoring as nothing to do with Tim (the same goes with Manu. He doesn't need Tim when he is playing for Argentina).

Sure it does. Tony is largely ineffective against teams that close out the paint. Spacing in the lane is directly provided by your bigs. There's a reason Bonner is sent camping to the perimeter. It's not just Tim that benefits from it. The reality is that whoever is guarding Tim will not slack off him. That's simply suicide. If you send the guy covering Bonner, then you expose yourself to a 3 pointer (the proverbial 'pick your poison' situation). Obviously, most good teams have figured out that you would rather have Bonner beat you than Tim/Tony. Which is really what happened with the Lakers two seasons ago, and the Mavericks last season.

As far as Manu goes, he's a different player from Tony. Manu actually has an outside game to complement his inside game. Something Tony has improved on, but is still a work in progress. There's also the fact that if you saw the Argentina NT playing you can see that they play a lot of set offense. At least they did with Magnano as the coach, when they used to be at the peak of their game. Manu is in the decline, however, while Tony is in his prime.


The things Duncan bring to Parker are rings and maybe multiple All Star selections. But his stats would probably have been better playing for another team.

I think his efficiency would have suffered. He might have had better stats because he might not need to share the ball as much, but I don't think his shooting percentage would have been the same it is.