48MoH: Learning from Marcus Haislip

[Blackjack]

Learning from Marcus Haislip (http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2009/11/27/learning-from-marcus-haislip/)
by Timothy Varner


Marcus Haislip saw his first action of the season Wednesday night against the Warriors. He played 4 minutes, scoring two points but not making a mark in any other basic statistical category. A quick scouting report from the game would tell you that Haislip was completely unassertive on the boards and played a handful of ghostly possessions. But he did knock down a 19 foot shot and, honestly, could have scored on at least two other possessions where he used his speed to get out in front of the break. The Spurs’ guards simply missed him.

One assumes Marcus Haislip was activated so that Gregg Popovich could have a long bench of quick, athletic players at his disposal against the microball Warriors. After all, Theo Ratliff was not far removed from his best minutes of the season. Based on the recent play of Ratliff, I wouldn’t have expected Marcus Haislip to play against Golden State. But Haislip, in hindsight, made sense given the match up.

The Spurs play the Yao-less Rockets this evening, a team that features one of the smallest (but overachieving) frontcourts in the league. The Rockets, like the Warriors, push the ball whenever possible. Haislip might enjoy another evening in gym shorts.

The point to take from this is not the fact of Haislip’s minutes, or lack thereof. His appearance against the Warriors tells us very little, if anything, new about the Spurs. But there is at least one important note to file away: It’s a long season, and the Spurs are still trying to figure out their roster, and how that roster might take shape moving forward.

You know that awkward feeling of uncertainty that accompanies new relationships. You’re not sure what to say. You’re not sure how to interpret a strange host of new mannerisms, or whether the one you flashed made its intended point. You can hear the music, but haven’t quite mastered the rhythm. That’s how this Spurs team feels to me.

[benefactor]

We shouldn't have given him a guaranteed contract...especially being over the cap.

[SpurNation]

They (Spurs brass) must have seen something in Haislip they thought would help the team when they gave him the guarantee. I always thought he would do well in limited SF minutes when having to go against taller teams.

[spurspokesman]

Hell, besides youtube he is A ghost to me. He is obviously not what they hoped for as he cant score minutes over aging vets and players without his athletic gifts.

[Interrohater]

I don't think we need to give up on him yet. I trust Pop and the front office too much right now. Look at the Bogans "fiasco". Bogans played like absolute garbage for awhile, through the preseason into the first couple of games. While we were here on Spurstalk calling for Bogan's immediate dismissal, Pop stuck with it, because he knows what he's doing.

Same thing with Mason and Bonner. In situations where they wilted, Pop now has them in blossoming roles where they can positively affect the game.

If the Spurs saw something in this guy to sign him to a guaranteed contract, then we would be wise to just let it play out. We had a lot of guys who played horribly in the preseason. If Pop is putting this guy out there right now, maybe he's improved from those limited minutes that we saw.

And don't say anything about "garbage time", because we all know that Hairston can play, but he has mostly seen garbage time as well.

[Blackjack]

We shouldn't have given him a guaranteed contract...especially being over the cap.

Sometimes you hit it out of the ballpark, others it hits the back of the glove; the Spurs took their cut, and even if it can't truly be deemed a strike-out yet, they're definitely behind the count.

I'd actually like to see him play against these smaller, quicker teams, in meaningful minutes, alongside the Spurs' best players. There hasn't been much of any indication he's capable of being a useful contributor, but the tools are intriguing enough to wonder how playing off the attention garnered by the Big 3+1 would benefit his game; the talent's definitely there and the Spurs taking a flyer made sense basketball-wise.

The good news is, whether he plays or not, I don't see his presence being detrimental to the team on the court. If he's on the court for more than garbage time or the coaching staff to just get a look-see it's a win. If he's sitting on the bench and doing nothing but being a helpful scout team member and giving them a better athlete to play the star of opposing team's during game-planning, he serves a purpose; they probably could have got a cheaper player to fill that role, however..

We really can't complain, though. Mr. Holt allowed the Spurs to step in the batter's-box and take their cut against some big-league pitching, even with the specter of the luxury tax looming.

The chances of hitting one out of the ballpark (finding a real contributor) weren't all that high but every once-in-a-while you run into one; Mr. Holt has my appreciation for giving them the opportunity.

[Darkwaters]

Sometimes you hit it out of the ballpark, others it hits the back of the glove; the Spurs took their cut, and even if it can't truly be deemed a strike-out yet, they're definitely behind the count.


Eh, the sample size is too small to say anything definitive about Haislip yet. He has a history as a bust, but to be honest, that was years ago. His game is completely different now and hes been pretty dominant in Europe. The talent is there, I'm likely to believe hes just trying to translate it back to this side of the pond.

Marcus Haislip is the epitome of the low-risk gamble. A minimum wage player with a proven record of quality play in Europe. He shows the exact style of play that we've been craving for some time and hes got all the right tools. I can't think that we should cut sling load on him so quickly. Pre-season and 16 regular season games is hardly a lot of time for analysis.

Consider the role of Fabricio Oberto a few years ago. He sat his first season on the bench and seemed poised to be the team's wallflower and victory cigar. Then in season 2 he broke out and performed far better than this entire board had ever imagined (minus Solid D).

For the 15th man making minimum money, I see little reason to cut him loose unless theres someone really useful available. As far as projects go, Haislip's a pretty damn good one.

[Spursfan 87]

I think this guy was a good sign. He is athletic, young, can shoot a little bit, and the most important he came cheap. And when you have so many players with long history of injuries, he is a nice insurance.

Also Haislip signed for 2 years. Bonner, Bogans, Finley, Mason, Theo and Ian are all free agents this year. I think this guy is going to be part of the rotation next year. This year he needs to learn that system and learn how to play defense, so next year he can be a factor.

[Interrohater]

Bonner, Bogans, Finley, Mason, Theo and Ian are all free agents this year. I think this guy is going to be part of the rotation next year. This year he needs to learn that system and learn how to play defense, so next year he can be a factor.
:tu

[weebo]

I think this guy was a good sign. He is athletic, young, can shoot a little bit, and the most important he came cheap. And when you have so many players with long history of injuries, he is a nice insurance.

Also Haislip signed for 2 years. Bonner, Bogans, Finley, Mason, Theo and Ian are all free agents this year. I think this guy is going to be part of the rotation next year. This year he needs to learn that system and learn how to play defense, so next year he can be a factor.

True. I think this guy and Hairston are here now to learn from the guys currently taking up minutes (Finely, Bonner, Mason, etc.) that might not be back next year. Ian, on the other hand, is as good as gone.

[benefactor]

Sometimes you hit it out of the ballpark, others it hits the back of the glove; the Spurs took their cut, and even if it can't truly be deemed a strike-out yet, they're definitely behind the count.

I'd actually like to see him play against these smaller, quicker teams, in meaningful minutes, alongside the Spurs' best players. There hasn't been much of any indication he's capable of being a useful contributor, but the tools are intriguing enough to wonder how playing off the attention garnered by the Big 3+1 would benefit his game; the talent's definitely there and the Spurs taking a flyer made sense basketball-wise.

The good news is, whether he plays or not, I don't see his presence being detrimental to the team on the court. If he's on the court for more than garbage time or the coaching staff to just get a look-see it's a win. If he's sitting on the bench and doing nothing but being a helpful scout team member and giving them a better athlete to play the star of opposing team's during game-planning, he serves a purpose; they probably could have got a cheaper player to fill that role, however..

We really can't complain, though. Mr. Holt allowed the Spurs to step in the batter's-box and take their cut against some big-league pitching, even with the specter of the luxury tax looming.

The chances of hitting one out of the ballpark (finding a real contributor) weren't all that high but every once-in-a-while you run into one; Mr. Holt has my appreciation for giving them the opportunity.
I agree with taking the gamble, but signing him for guaranteed money when they are already in tax territory becomes problematic if they are out of roster spots. My biggest concern is the one we have already seen...the lack of quality ball handlers if Manu, TP or Hill are out for any length of time. They could waive Hairston if they really got in a pinch, but most of us agree that would be undesirable as he seems to have a future with them. If my math is correct, waiving Haislip would cost the Spurs a little over 1.7 million...then they would be looking at another veteran minimum contract to replace him(tax included, of course).

Oh well...it goes back to that old hindsight saying....

[Darkwaters]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think minimum salary players counted against the luxury tax. Besides, his base salary is paid in large part by the league as a vet minimum player. So his salary is not nearly as costly as some as suggesting.

[Flux451]

I am hungry for some Haislip play. I have a feeling we will see more of him in the game tonight. Even if he is seldom used, at least we and especially the coaches can see what he is capable of. There will come times when we will need a change of pace from some bigs being injured or cold as Bonner and Mason in the playoffs.

[senorglory]

I see from his wikipedia page, that Haislip won the Turkish Basketball League All-Star Weekend Slam Dunk Contest in the 05-06 season. That's exciting.

[Spursfan 87]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think minimum salary players counted against the luxury tax. Besides, his base salary is paid in large part by the league as a vet minimum player. So his salary is not nearly as costly as some as suggesting.


It counts against the tax. Once you are over the cap every sign (MLE, BLE, LLE, minimum) counts against the tax.

[Blackjack]

Eh, the sample size is too small to say anything definitive about Haislip yet. He has a history as a bust, but to be honest, that was years ago. His game is completely different now and hes been pretty dominant in Europe. The talent is there, I'm likely to believe hes just trying to translate it back to this side of the pond.

I'm not sure how you read a definitive fail in my take..


Marcus Haislip is the epitome of the low-risk gamble.

Had there not been the luxury tax ramifications, then, yes, he'd be the epitome of a low-risk gamble.


A minimum wage player with a proven record of quality play in Europe. He shows the exact style of play that we've been craving for some time and hes got all the right tools.[QUOTE]

The fact of the matter is, his style of play puts in the same boat as Bonner: the shooting-4.

You're absolutely right that he has the right tools, thus, the flyer was taken in hopes the Spurs could harness his God-given abilities and get them to translate on the defensive end of the floor. If successful, the Spurs would've finally had their answer to all the bigger 3's and mobile 4's that had given them so much trouble over the years.

The problem is, Haislip is an offensive player; the growth in his game came as an offensive player and not on the defensive end. You can have all the tools in the world, but if you don't know how to use them or the willingness to learn, the guy is approaching 30, what good do they actually do?

The guy's capable of the spectacular but the Spurs need more of the solid on the defensive end. I haven't closed the book on him, he is signed for two-years, but as of right now I do know this:

When it comes to the very aspects of the game that Haislip excels in, Bonner's better in just about every regard; frankly, it's not all that close.


[QUOTE=Darkwaters;3871071]Consider the role of Fabricio Oberto a few years ago. He sat his first season on the bench and seemed poised to be the team's wallflower and victory cigar. Then in season 2 he broke out and performed far better than this entire board had ever imagined (minus Solid D).

I wasn't posting then but I was a big fan of Oberto's for a while before the Spurs acquired him. I couldn't understand how he wasn't in the league and how the Kings never made an attempt to sign him; (not that I know of, anyway) he would've been fantastic in that offense, especially when he was closer to his prime.

So I was happy when the Spurs got him, even if a little skeptical because of the Scola situation. I knew what he had to offer and that it was of need to the Spurs. There was no guesswork or trying to get a player to change his stripes; the same can not be said for Haislip.

Fab got caught in a log-jam with Nazr, Rasho, Horry, and of course Tim, so his not playing was understandable.

Haislip's got one guy ahead of him for the role he could play offensively, and no competition for what he could bring defensively.

Maybe this first-year's sole purpose is to get him acclimated and have him learn to be the defensive player the Spurs hope him to be, but that's assuming a lot of faith for someone that takes up a roster spot and cost double on the dollar; maybe it was the only way they could secure his services, though. He surely could've received more money playing overseas given his play..



For the 15th man making minimum money, I see little reason to cut him loose unless theres someone really useful available. As far as projects go, Haislip's a pretty damn good one.

Well, it's a little over the minimum, it's double on the dollar, and as far as projects go, again, he's almost 30.

I really like the guy and his tools are no doubt intriguing, I just have my doubts; I hope he does get the chance to play and prove he can change his stripes, though.


I agree with taking the gamble, but signing him for guaranteed money when they are already in tax territory becomes problematic if they are out of roster spots. My biggest concern is the one we have already seen...the lack of quality ball handlers if Manu, TP or Hill are out for any length of time. They could waive Hairston if they really got in a pinch, but most of us agree that would be undesirable as he seems to have a future with them. If my math is correct, waiving Haislip would cost the Spurs a little over 1.7 million...then they would be looking at another veteran minimum contract to replace him(tax included, of course).

Oh well...it goes back to that old hindsight saying....

Yeah, I hear where you're coming from; Mason and point-guard go together like Amy Winehouse and clean-living.

There's still the possibility of a small two-for-one trade or Mahinmi getting dealt, so there's a chance that could get addressed if needed.

I'd hate to have to schedule another baby seal-hunting trip, in the event Malik was cut; my club is always at the ready, though..

[HarlemHeat37]

Letting him play is kind of a risk..who is he going to play ahead of?..Ratliff isn't playing much, and he's produced when he has..

I guess I could see why people want him to play..he has the mobility and size to potentially guard guys that give us problems(Dirk, West), but Haislip was beyond horrible in preseason..I'm not talking about his offense, because missing shots happens, even Bogans couldn't make in preseason..his defense was REALLY bad though, significantly worse than Bonner and even Blair..it wasn't just rotations, his individual D was very poor, to the point where he was getting torched by guys like Rob Kurz..

[The Truth #6]

Ian, Marcus, Malik - all part of the athletic youth movement and all sitting on the bench.

Given that we aren't very good right now, it seems stupid to experiment with our lineup without giving the young players a chance. Instead, we're experimenting occasionally with Theo Ratliff, as if his contributions can't already be easily calculated. This is especially true of Malik and Ian because they know the system better than players like Ratliff and Dice. In a sense, Malik and Ian are already veterans in our system even if they are "young", yet can't get playing time. I'm not saying they're going to be great but we keep trying to find a spark from our players and I see no reason why not to give them a chance. This point has been beaten to death obviously, yet somehow I mustered enough energy to re-emphasize it one more time.

As far as how we can categorize Haislip - I don't see how we as fans can assume to know what role he would fill or who he would be competing with for minutes. I say that because there is hardly any viewable evidence of him as a Spur. He played about a minute in regular season and in some pre-season games that were never televised. I know some people saw him plahy and those few views seem to be taken as the only interpretation. Given how many people I could easily disagree with on this board, these few opinions are not something I necesarilly believe yet. The guy is a mystery to me. He might suck, he might be good for us. Personally, I don't see how I can make an assessment at this point. The fact that he isn't playing doesn't mean anything to me. Most people assume Hairston is superior to Finley, but until Hairston gets a real chance to play, how can we know?

[ulosturedge]

I would have to say I had more hope for Haislip before the season started. I do think the FO got ahead of themselves when they signed him to a 2-year guaranteed deal. That is looking back in hindsight though. You have to think that the FO thought they had a guy who could add a lot of versatility on both ends of the court. The offense more so and the defense of course would have taken some grooming, but with his athleticism it would have seemed quite doable. The fact that he couldn't beat out any of our backups to get a spot on the bench tells me that he is much farther behind in the learning curve then I initially thought. This makes me think that his BBIQ is lacking quite a bit, and his bb mentality needs a ton of refining. But what actually makes matters worse for him is that as our team molds together it really comes apparent what we would need from him. And that is some solid defense which is not really what the guy was about over in Europe.

I can't help but think that Pop is looking to see if Haslip can learn enough defensively to help us counter "big" lineups. Bigger lineups have given us a ton of problems inside and I can't help but think that teams like the Blazers, Lakers, Celtics, ect. are going to cause us alot of trouble if we don't look to resolve the situation. I hope i'm wrong, but I have to say I don't feel good about it.

[dbestpro]

My wife (novice) was easily impressed with Haislips athleticism in the 4 minutes he played and could see the impact he could make if given time. Its funny that she can see how smooth he is but many fans (experts) can't see the obvious.

Right now, Haislip is being treated like a pre-season Bogans. You haven't seen him so you don't know him so he must be bad. If given the chance he will surprise.

[HarlemHeat37]

We saw him in a number of preseason games..there was also a number of credible posters here that saw him in person in the games that weren't televised and shared the same sentiment..

Bogans' shot wasn't going in preseason, but his defense was never questioned..Haislip is undoubtedly the worst defender on the team..it's not like he had a reputation of being a good defensive player in Europe, so I don't see why people are surprised..

It's not just the fans that are saying this, it's clearly the coaches as well..it would at least make sense if he had played decent ball in preseason..decent is levels better than what Haislip showed..

[Blackjack]

What people need to understand is, Haislip isn't some unknown quantity just because most haven't seen him at the NBA level.

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on Haislip but I saw him when he broke into the league, I got a feel for him through preseason, and I have a couple of friends whose eye I trust that have seen him play extensively in Europe and in person here in SA; there's more than enough information for me to ascertain a decent opinion of the player he is and can be.

There's no question about his athleticism and tools, but, like I said before, he's an offensive player. He came into the league as an athlete with potential, he washed out because of circumstances and/or his approach, and he made himself into a ball-player while over in Europe where he honed his shooting and became a shooting-4.

His defense never took the next step, he just utilized the athleticism he had with a pretty decent shot to carve out a nice niche while over in Europe. Essentially, what he became was a poor man's Matt Bonner. People get caught up in the spectacular dunking ability or the occasional high-light reel block, but it's fools gold; I don't think people truly comprehend just how bad of a defensive player he was thought to be over in Europe during his resurgence and how bad he looked, even in a small sample set, during the preseason. We're talking on-ball and everywhere in-between, so it wasn't a lack of knowledge in a particular defensive concept.

There's no reason on Earth why I wouldn't want this guy to work out, he's a good guy and it'd be great for the Spurs. What he happens to excel in though, Bonner excels in more; he's a better shooter for sure, a more willing defender, and I'd venture to say that Bonner's probably got the edge in ball-handling and rebounding as well.

The skepticism with Haislip isn't something that just came about recently, more than a few of us have wondered how this signing really made sense from the beginning; you're going to give a guaranteed contract to a guy to come in and fill what you hope to be a defensive need, but the only thing that tells you he could be the answer is of a physical nature?

You've got to respect the guy for turning his career around and turning into a nice player while overseas, which I'm sure is something the Spurs found admirable and even desireable, but I have a hard time believing a guy approaching 30, that's never been noted for defense, is all of a sudden going to give you minutes on some of the most talented and intelligent players in the league; just can't see it..

[barbacoataco]

He could be of use for limited minutes against some of the up-tempo teams like Golden State and Phoenix.

[GSH]

If he were playing for the Warriors or Knicks, he would probably be getting solid minutes this season. He belongs in the NBA - I'm just not sure why they thought he belonged on a team coached by Greg Popovich.

The sad thing is, it cost him just about as much to come here as it cost the Spurs. He wanted another shot at the NBA, and gave up a chunk of cash to get it. I feel for him.

[Muser]

If he were playing for the Warriors or Knicks, he would probably be getting solid minutes this season. He belongs in the NBA - I'm just not sure why they thought he belonged on a team coached by Greg Popovich.

The sad thing is, it cost him just about as much to come here as it cost the Spurs. He wanted another shot at the NBA, and gave up a chunk of cash to get it. I feel for him.

Yeah, let's feel sorry for a guy earning millions of dollars...

[silverblackfan]

I think Bonner was pretty much a working man type offensive player when he came here. Now, especially this year, he is playing defense and still shooting well. This history leads leads me to think that Haislip can also pick up defense to go with his athletic abilities. Hence, the 2 year commitment. It's insurance, like Malik, against losing some of the upcoming free agents.
It looks like now that Pop has a starting 5 coming together and a 2nd unit starting to gel, he is inserting only 1 new player at a time. I think we will see more of Haislip over the next 10 games, especially if the defense continues to improve and leads become the norm.

[Mel_13]

The second year of Haislip's is not guaranteed. The Spurs can waive him by July 1, 2010 and owe him nothing for next season. There is no 2 year commitment. If he plays well, the Spurs can elect to take a second year at the vet minimum.

[Blackjack]

Bruno: courtesy Sham

Marcus Haislip has a $915,852 salary that is fully non-guaranteed before July 1st 2010 and become fully guaranteed after that.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125187

I'm not sure why the original reporting of a guaranteed two-year deal keeps getting stuck in my head, but it's a pleasant surprise to find out it was wrong each time I remember or am reminded of it. :lol