Start Manu

[GabeIsGone]

This far into the season our starting group has not played up to par with other elite starters. Our bench is quite possibly the best in the league (and this is without ginobli for a decent amount of time!). Manu no longer needs to be coming off the bench, and is needed in the starting unit. He seems to have the best connection with Jefferson of our big 3 and will overall improve the performance of the starters. For all those who say its not who starts its who finishes, did you see the game todday? We fell behind early and only came back when the starters were out. Plus manu didnt even really finish so...

[duhoh]

No!

[DesignatedT]

whoa

[Purch]

Same thing I said in the other thread

The Bench is productive with or without Manu and if needed they can put Dice on the Bench for that mid range jumpshot.

The real problem I saw was how much the starters got outscored.


These are the two games Manu and Jefferson played together since Duncan and Parker were out Most of Jefferson's points were just off Manu getting the ball to him off cuts.

http://i46.tinypic.com/34xmik3.jpg

These are the stats for the lineup

Parker
Manu
Jefferson
Duncan
Bonner

http://i48.tinypic.com/29qea7k.jpg

I think for maximum production out of Jefferson him and Manu need to be played at the same time. I think Pop should have faith in his Bench without Manu it's already 3rd in the leauge in production.

[GabeIsGone]

Same thing I said in the other thread

The Bench is productive with or without Manu and if needed they can put Dice on the Bench for that mid range jumpshot.

The real problem I saw was how much the starters got outscored.


These are the two games Manu and Jefferson played together since Duncan and Parker were out Most of Jefferson's points were just off Manu getting the ball to him off cuts.

http://i46.tinypic.com/34xmik3.jpg

These are the stats for the lineup

Parker
Manu
Jefferson
Duncan
Bonner

http://i48.tinypic.com/29qea7k.jpg

I think for maximum production out of Jefferson him and Manu need to be played at the same time. I think Pop should have faith in his Bench without Manu it's already 3rd in the leauge in production.
.

[kbrury]

Im not against it.

[Purch]

Im not against it.

If only Pop would make it happen but it seems he dosen't even want to give the lineup a test

[Brazil]

lol since I'm following spurstalk I see 10 times a year a start manu thread it's like the trade parker or bonner sucks

[tHe210rObInHoOd]

Bench RJ and let him lead the offensive production off the bench. Start Manu and let him get back to playing with Tim and Tony, just keep his minutes under 30 per game. Problem solved....

[Purch]

Bench RJ and let him lead the offensive production off the bench. Start Manu and let him get back to playing with Tim and Tony, just keep his minutes under 30 per game. Problem solved....

Why would they bench Jefferson they haven't even tried starting Manu with Jefferson, Tony and Duncan yet. As you've seen Manu makes Jefferson better

[ffadicted]

http://i48.tinypic.com/29qea7k.jpg



That's really intriguing actually. What about with McDyess or Blair instead of Bonner

[sa_kid20]

It's been quite clear that RJ is at his best when Manu is out there with him. Either if Pop starts Manu instead of RJ to give the starting 5 a little more punch and then have RJ come in for Bogans, or if he just starts them both right off the bat; it seems like Manu helps RJ out tremendously as apposed to when he's out there with the starting group. Manu not only helps out Jefferson because he's the best playmaker on the team and will create opportunities for him, but Manu is also able to extend the defense out to the 3-point line which unclogs the paint a little for RJ and gives for of a driving lane. Tony and Bogans don't really extend the defense very much and their defenders are more likely to sag back and clog that lane. Throw in the fact that Duncan will be on the block most times, and it makes it even more difficult for RJ to get to the rim. I just think either Manu needs to start instead of RJ, or they both need to start because with the starting 5 we have now, RJ is basically being turned into a spot-up shooter which definitely isn't his strength.

[z0sa]

Last week, I hypothesized Manu's return would break RJ's fragile chemistry with the team due to a couple different reasons.

Ginobili's first game back from injury (http://www.nba.com/games/20091129/PHISAS/gameinfo.html#nbaGIboxscore)

Ginobili's second game back from injury (http://www.nba.com/games/20091203/BOSSAS/gameinfo.html#nbaGIboxscore)

The stats speak for themselves. While RJ has shined during moments on the defensive end over these two games, his offensive game (once again) has dropped off a cliff. However, I'm not making a direct correlation with only Manu, but rather an indirect one with team's best players being healthy.

I'm confident RJ simply needs more time with the Big 3 healthy before he can truly find his niche on offense. He can't build a rhythm with the guys facing injury at all times. His touches and the very flow of the game are inconsistent.

What does this have to do with Manu starting? I don't think we have enough evidence showing whether Manu would be better with RJ on the floor or not. Pop is probably hoping for a stretch of health so this and other questions (like RJ coming off the bench?) can be answered. Perhaps then he can make a calculated decision.

RJ needs more time with a healthy Big 3. He can't find his niche on offense without Manu's health. That's why it is so vital Manu (and the rest of the big 3) stays healthy.

[TJastal]

It's been quite clear that RJ is at his best when Manu is out there with him. Either if Pop starts Manu instead of RJ to give the starting 5 a little more punch and then have RJ come in for Bogans, or if he just starts them both right off the bat; it seems like Manu helps RJ out tremendously as apposed to when he's out there with the starting group. Manu not only helps out Jefferson because he's the best playmaker on the team and will create opportunities for him, but Manu is also able to extend the defense out to the 3-point line which unclogs the paint a little for RJ and gives for of a driving lane. Tony and Bogans don't really extend the defense very much and their defenders are more likely to sag back and clog that lane. Throw in the fact that Duncan will be on the block most times, and it makes it even more difficult for RJ to get to the rim. I just think either Manu needs to start instead of RJ, or they both need to start because with the starting 5 we have now, RJ is basically being turned into a spot-up shooter which definitely isn't his strength.

I wouldn't be against Manu starting. The starting unit has gone cold offensively, mainly due to Bogans. The spurs can't afford to have Bogans laying eggs offensively and providing nothing defensively at the same time.

Another solution that I think would be even better would be to put Roger Mason into the starting lineup to help open up the floor a bit and give the starting unit some offensive punch. With Jefferson, Duncan, and Dice on the floor that is plenty of interior defense and they don't need Bogans' defense as much as the second unit with Blair and Bonner.

[TJastal]

So in effect it would be

Starters

Duncan
McDyess
Jefferson
Mason, Jr
Parker

Bench

Blair
Bonner
Bogans
Manu
Hill

I think these lineups are a bit better balanced offensively and defensively.

[kbrury]

So in effect it would be

Starters

Duncan
McDyess
Jefferson
Mason, Jr
Parker

Bench

Blair
Bonner
Bogans
Manu
Hill

I think these lineups are a bit better balanced offensively and defensively.

Seems like Pop has been playing Mason as the backup PG though so he probably won't start.

[TJastal]

Seems like Pop has been playing Mason as the backup PG though so he probably won't start.

Then Pop didn't learn anything from last year. Even more reason to put him in the starting lineup, so he's not handling the rock much.

[kbrury]

Then Pop didn't learn anything from last year. Even more reason to put him in the starting lineup, so he's not handling the rock much.

To Mason's credit he was a big reason for the winning streak earlier not only because his shot started to go down but his PG play was good. I think he averaged just above 3 assists per game, seems like Hill is still not the creator the Spurs want him to be.

[TJastal]

To Mason's credit he was a big reason for the winning streak earlier not only because his shot started to go down but his PG play was good. I think he averaged just above 3 assists per game, seems like Hill is still not the creator the Spurs want him to be.

Flukey. I wouldn't put much stock in Mason's point guard accomplishments or count on it for any length of time.

As for Hill, since he plays alot of minutes with Ginobili he really doesn't need to be the main creator with the ball. Same goes for Mason, Jr.

If anything your logic dictates the spurs could use him in starting lineup to help Parker create opportunities for Jefferson.

[kbrury]

Flukey. I wouldn't put much stock in Mason's point guard accomplishments or count on it for any length of time.

As for Hill, since he plays alot of minutes with Ginobili he really doesn't need to be the main creator with the ball. Same goes for Mason, Jr.

If anything your logic dictates the spurs could use him in starting lineup to help Parker create opportunities for Jefferson.

Im not counting on Mason's PG skills its just that right now Hill has not shown enough improvement as a PG to the Spurs I guess. Maybe thats why Mason has been the primary ball handler when they are on the court together.

I don't mind Mason starting but to the Spurs they will probably keep him on the bench unless Hill shows he can consistently be a playmaker.

[TJastal]

Im not counting on Mason's PG skills its just that right now Hill has not shown enough improvement as a PG to the Spurs I guess. Maybe thats why Mason has been the primary ball handler when they are on the court together.

I don't mind Mason starting but to the Spurs they will probably keep him on the bench unless Hill shows he can consistently be a playmaker.

If the goal is turn Hill into a playmaker then they need to let him do it then and quit using RMJ as a crutch. He'll never learn otherwise.

At least for now, the point is moot anyway. When Manu is healthy he is the main playmaker in the 2nd unit. Hill can take care of stuff like bringing the ball up the court and such but Manu is going to be the main playmaker on offense. Mason, Jr is not needed to do this in the 2nd unit. If anything, the 1st unit could use a little more playmaking since that isn't Parker's strong suit.
So either Manu or Mason in the starting lineup, take your pick.

I'll give it 10 more games before Popovich finally figures this out.

[exstatic]

Flukey. I wouldn't put much stock in Mason's point guard accomplishments or count on it for any length of time.

As for Hill, since he plays alot of minutes with Ginobili he really doesn't need to be the main creator with the ball. Same goes for Mason, Jr.

If anything your logic dictates the spurs could use him in starting lineup to help Parker create opportunities for Jefferson.

Then the second unit suffers without Manu. GH3 is really more of a Parker type guard who will find his own shot first, and see you if you're wide open. Manu finds players BEFORE they're open. You really can't teach that, and the bench needs that MUCH more than the starters. You have it or you don't. Tony doesn't even have it, although he can now find players just as they break open, something he didn't have earlier.

[kbrury]

Then the second unit suffers without Manu. GH3 is really more of a Parker type guard who will find his own shot first, and see you if you're wide open. Manu finds players BEFORE they're open. You really can't teach that, and the bench needs that MUCH more than the starters. You have it or you don't. Tony doesn't even have it, although he can now find players just as they break open, something he didn't have earlier.

He was talking about starting Mason.

[dbestpro]

lol since I'm following spurstalk I see 10 times a year a start manu thread it's like the trade parker or bonner sucks

But this time it makes sense.

[InK]

But this time it makes sense.

Yeh, this time it does. 2nd unit if finally good enough to take care of bussines. Pops probably gonna do this in the near future.

[NFGIII]

No!

Agreed. Manu's influence on the 2nd is critical. He is the playmaker that most on this team are not. Besides Manu who on this team really is a playmaker?

TP? I think not. Shoot first and pass second. Would anyone in Spursland consider him on the same level as a Kidd/Nash? Even a notch below? And that is in the context as to being a passing PG looking to assist others rather than looking for one's own shot first.

GHIll? Too early to tell but as of now he is more a shoot first PG.

Mason? He is better suited for SG though as of late he is handling the ball better. But overall I think not.

We need a 2nd unit that comes in and contributes but if Manu is a starter I think that wont happen. If the Spurs were to replace RJ with Manu then RJ could feast on 2nd unit players but we still have no playmaker on the 2nd unit. RJ works best without the ball by slashing and running the open floor to get open and the Spurs would essentially waste his talents by making him a playmaker. IMHO