On the NBA’s Gender Barrier

[duncan228]

On the NBA’s Gender Barrier (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=tsn-onthenbasgenderbarri&prov=tsn&type=lgns)
SportingNews

Over at SI.com (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/ian_thomsen/12/04/countdown/index.html?xid=si_nba), Ian Thomsen raises a fairly weighty question: Will we soon, or ever, see a woman in the NBA? The headline, at least, makes you think that Commissioner Stern himself is on board. What he actually says is "Sure. I think that’s well within the range of probability." That’s in response to the very open-ended "Will it happen someday?"

I enjoy the WNBA. Even before this year’s bonkers Finals, I’d been attending and watching games. It’s come a long way since those early, crude days, and during the off-season, serious hoop fans could do far worse than to follow the W. But I’m just not buying Thomsen’s "reasons." Stern’s lukewarm, PR-required response doesn’t count. That the first female NBA player "would be a huge story" implies that hype runs the league, which starts us down the path of fixed playoff series and lottery fraud. The point that the women’s game has made great strides is certainly relevant here, but Dirk Nowitzki points out the problem with this rationale:


"Skills-wise, yeah," [Nowitzki] said, meaning they could shoot and handle the ball at an NBA level. "But physical-wise, it’s tough. Even all the little guys are pretty strong in this league and pretty athletic."

Certainly, the WNBA has shooters, passers, and overall students of the game on par with anyone in the men’s league. But Dirk makes the key point: Relatively speaking, men are bigger, stronger, and more athletic.

Maybe a star WNBA player could hold her own in today’s NCAA men’s game. The NBA, though, is where the best athletes in the world come to ply their craft. As much as I love Cappie Pondexter, it’s laughable to suggest that she could guard Dwayne Wade. Which leads us to Thomsen’s next reason: Rule changes have made the men’s game less physical, more reliant on shooting and all-around skill. This is where Diana Taurasi enters the conversation, seeing as she’s got height, dead-eye range and a great basketball mind.

What exactly would Taursai do in the NBA, though? Be a 6’ Kyle Korver? Would she want to do that? Would that really serve the purpose of breaking the gender line?

All of which undermines the final reason: "The first women will be greeted with newfound respect." This experiment only makes sense if a player is capable of playing her game with the men. Otherwise, it’s condescending, pointless and an insult to everything the WNBA has achieved on its own.

[Fpoonsie]

Fuuuuuck me. I sure as hell hope this doesn't happen.

[mavs>spurs2]

lol women cannot play on the men's level. some women are pretty close like dirk said in terms of dribbling and shooting the ball, but the physical gap is just too far to bridge. i went to high school with a girl who was a mcdonald's all american and another girl who didn't quite get the same recognition but was one of the top scorers in the country. those girls would come to open gym and play pickup with the guys but by no means could either of them come close to beating me, and obviously i'm not in the nba. interesting idea but it would surely fail

[21_Blessings]

Take 5 best WNBA players to Venice Beach or Rucker and watch them get run off the court.

[mavs>spurs2]

Take 5 best WNBA players to Venice Beach or Rucker and watch them get run off the court.

:lol that would be just mean and brutal, but true

[jacobdrj]

Take 5 best WNBA players to Venice Beach or Rucker and watch them get run off the court.

How about 4 regular male basketball players and the best WNBA shooter?

[mavs>spurs2]

How about 4 regular male basketball players and the best WNBA shooter?

instead of handicapping them why not just bring the best NBA shooter? plus, the best wnba shooter wouldnt be a good shooter with a male sized regulation ball. she would have to adjust

[Darthkiller]

it can never happen. men plays differently with women, unless they are gay or something. plus it would be awkward in the lockerroom where guys go naked.

[The Gemini Method]

While I'm not for a woman being in the NBA, it would be perilously foolish to say that the 5 best WNBA players wouldn't be able to hold their own at the famed Venice Beach courts. I have seen plenty of female teams take games from their male counterparts.

[Allanon]

To answer the question, just reverse the question.

Should extremely talented men be allowed into the WNBA?

[The Gemini Method]

To answer the question, just reverse the question.

What if men were allowed into the WNBA?

No one would notice because nobody would watch...

[mavs>spurs2]

While I'm not for a woman being in the NBA, it would be perilously foolish to say that the 5 best WNBA players wouldn't be able to hold their own at the famed Venice Beach courts. I have seen plenty of female teams take games from their male counterparts.

women CANNOT play against men, dude. i've played against female mcdonalds all americans that dont stand a chance in hell at beating me, and i'm just a regular guy who's played ball for years. I'm not nba or college d1 level. they just can't compete man, it's nothing personal or sexist

[kamikazi_player]

I thought we already started this movement by letting Sasha Vujacic play

[Chomag]

I thought we already started this movement by letting Sasha Vujacic play

:lmao:rollin

I'm surprised no one already said this untill now. lol

[phyzik]

Then there's the whole mess of sexism. Someone is playing rough man to man defense, poking, prodding, body to body. Who's to say whats over the limit?

It just wouldnt work. Rules would have to be setup specific to women players and the moment that happens, it ruins the spirit of the game.

[The Gemini Method]

women CANNOT play against men, dude. i've played against female mcdonalds all americans that dont stand a chance in hell at beating me, and i'm just a regular guy who's played ball for years. I'm not nba or college d1 level. they just can't compete man, it's nothing personal or sexist

So, in essence, you're saying this response isn't personal nor sexist when you make a totalistic comment stating, "women CANNOT play against men?" That seems a little bit contradictory, because that whole remark is pretty much sexist in regards. To say without unequivable doubt that females cannot play is disregarding the whole female segment of the population. Which is kinda a huge statment to make without curtailing the lines of sexism.

Secondly, you played against McDonald's All-Americans who are barely out of high-school. Is that a fair comparison to an WNBA player? That is akin (hypothetically) to saying well, I beat LeBron in an AAU game, so that means I am definitely capable of taking down LeBron in an NBA game now. The girls who are All-American still have to go through the seasoning they'd get playing at a powerhouse like UConn or Tennessee and then making it to the WNBA for this whole debate to have merit.

While, I'm not in agreeance that women should play in the NBA, but to say that a WNBA squad can't hang with say, a pick-up game definitely does not sound right and to be quite honest, is probably dead wrong.

[mavs>spurs2]

So, in essence, you're saying this response isn't personal nor sexist when you make a totalistic comment stating, "women CANNOT play against men?" That seems a little bit contradictory, because that whole remark is pretty much sexist in regards. To say without unequivable doubt that females cannot play is disregarding the whole female segment of the population. Which is kinda a huge statment to make without curtailing the lines of sexism.

Secondly, you played against McDonald's All-Americans who are barely out of high-school. Is that a fair comparison to an WNBA player? That is akin (hypothetically) to saying well, I beat LeBron in an AAU game, so that means I am definitely capable of taking down LeBron in an NBA game now. The girls who are All-American still have to go through the seasoning they'd get playing at a powerhouse like UConn or Tennessee and then making it to the WNBA for this whole debate to have merit.

While, I'm not in agreeance that women should play in the NBA, but to say that a WNBA squad can't hang with say, a pick-up game definitely does not sound right and to be quite honest, is probably dead wrong.

Me thinks you're underestimating the competition level at some of these places like Rucker park. There are guys in our country out in the streets that are as good or better than anyone in the NBA, the difference is they just never got the same opportunities. Do some research on Demetrius "Hook" Mitchell and see what Gary Payton, and Jason Kidd among others say about him. They are on record to say he's the "best player they ever played against." But he didn't end up in the NBA, he ended up in the penitentiary. Stories similar to his are quite common amongst young blacks in our inner cities. Putting those girls out on the court at Rucker Park would be like throwing a deer with a broke leg into a crocodile pit.

[mogrovejo]

In a coaching position, yeah. As a player, it'd need to be some kind of aberration. Big gap in athleticism.

That said, I think it makes sense that this question is raised because of Taurasi. She's a freak, she reminds me of LeBron James. I can see her being a decent player in the NCAA div 1 or in some European leagues.

[NBAfan83]

Don't do it stern! or there will be less players Paul Pierce can kick in the crotch!

[dallaskd]

This shouldnt be debated. Ive played high level basketball tournaments my whole life. There are plenty of girls who can fucking shoot lights out, you would be surprised but there is no way they ever belong on the same court. If a NBA team played a WNBA team,
the WNBA team would only score off free throws and maybe some fluke 3 pointers. The level is so dramatic its rediculous.

[Kriz-Maxima]

Not gonna happen.

[duncan228]

SheBron? James not sure women ready for NBA (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-nbawomanplayer&prov=ap&type=lgns)
By Tom Withers

LeBron James can’t imagine having a female teammate or posting up against a woman in the NBA.

Commissioner David Stern said in an interview with Sports Illustrated that he believes women could be playing in the league within the next decade.

“I don’t want to get into all kinds of arguments with players and coaches about the likelihood,” Stern told SI. “But I really think it’s a good possibility.”

Asked about Stern’s take, James, the league’s reigning MVP, wasn’t convinced it will ever happen.

“Ten years?” James said before the Cavaliers hosted Chicago on Friday night. “That’s like right around the corner. I’ll be 34 and I’ll still be in the NBA. I think 10 years is a little pushing it. I love all sports. I love watching the girls, especially in the Olympics and in the WNBA. They’re great and there are a lot of great players.

“But 10 years? I think that’s pushing it.”

Cavaliers forward Anthony Parker, whose sister, Candace, is perhaps the top women’s player in the world, agreed with James.

“First of all, I don’t see why, other than to say a woman can do it,” he said. “But for long term? No way. My sister is a good player and has great skill, but as far as making an NBA roster? No. She’s 6-4, which is the average height of a shooting guard. I’m never going to say never.

“I just hope I live to see it.”

[ezau]

I thought we already started this movement by letting Sasha Vujacic play

Holy fuck, this was nasty :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[monosylab1k]

Take 5 best WNBA players to Venice Beach or Rucker and watch them get run off the court.

:lol true.

the worst NBA player in the league >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best WNBA player in the league.

[monosylab1k]

Matt Carroll could score 40 points a game in the WNBA.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If Trajon Langdon was a girl, he wouldn't have needed to go to Europe to dominate.

[sabar]

Why not, the league is already filled with short people that can shoot and do nothing else. Most teams have one already. Of course, they'd never be able to be elite players until we get some genetic engineering going and they can muscle up.

Anyways, I doubt women would even want to compete if they would just be out shooting threes and doing nothing else. It'd look bad on them.

Within 50 years you'll have people pumping themselves full of whatever sex hormone they want and the gender line will be blurry. This already occurs today, although far past the age when it has to be done to get the right body shape (pre-puberty).

[JoeTait75]

Won't happen and shouldn't happen for reasons that go way beyond the enormous physical differences between men and women.

[baseline bum]

Matt Carroll could score 40 points a game in the WNBA.

Only 40? A women's ball makes jumpshots easier in real life than on XBox.

[JoeTait75]

Why not, the league is already filled with short people that can shoot and do nothing else.

Not short people. Short men.

[Blake]

Otherwise, it’s condescending, pointless and an insult to everything the WNBA has achieved on its own.

I didn't realize the WNBA had achieved anything at all on its own.

[JoeTait75]

I didn't realize the WNBA had achieved anything at all on its own.

[Smooth Criminal]

It's tough for them, and it's seems rude to say it, but they just aren't good enough. At my High School, our sophomore team would embarrass the Girls Varsity Team

[duhoh]

I thought we already started this movement by letting Sasha Vujacic play

:lol

ok, ok, you got us

[Xevious]

I don't care how much skill a woman has... men and women shouldn't be combined in physical sports. As soon as one of them goes down with an injury due to a hard foul, all hell will break loose. They have their own league for a reason.

[Indazone]

If Mugsy Bogues could make it in the NBA, then a woman can play in the NBA. Do I think there will ever be a woman post player capable of banging with Tim Duncan? No

Women do have some of the best eye hand coordination around and some of them can dunk. I can see a woman point guard or woman shooting guard who can take it to the hole, dunk or shoot the three. If nothing else, like Mugsy Bogues, just handling the rock and setting up the offense.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If Mugsy Bogues could make it in the NBA, then a woman can play in the NBA.


This ranks right up there with some of the dumbest things Rocketfan has ever posted.

[JoeTait75]

If Mugsy Bogues could make it in the NBA, then a woman can play in the NBA.

Bullshit.

Mugsy Bogues got into the NBA because he earned it. He earned it by excelling in youth basketball against boys. In high school basketball against boys. And in college basketball against men. They didn't let him play because they wanted him to break "height barriers." He got to the NBA on merit.

If a woman can run that gauntlet, she's earned her spot. But that's not what people are talking about. They're talking about letting a woman compete against other women in every level of basketball up to the pro level... and then giving her a spot in the NBA, not because she's gotten there by merit, by succeeding against men from the youth level on... but because they want to make a bullshit socio-political statement about "breaking barriers" and "providing inspiration to millions of girls" or other such nonsense.

The lowliest bench player in the NBA deserves his spot a thousand times more than the greatest woman player. You know why? Because he earned it a thousand times more than any woman could.

[Darthkiller]

If women are allowed to play in the nba then men should be allowed in women bathrooms.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I still can't get over how dumb that Mugsy Bogues comment was.

[jacobdrj]

instead of handicapping them why not just bring the best NBA shooter?

The Phx Suns don't seem to mind...

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The Phx Suns don't seem to mind...


That made no sense. Are you seriously suggesting Stern do everything he can to put a women's player in the NBA when she's done nothing to deserve it?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Women in any men's sport doesn't make sense. Michele Wie probably stained women's golf forever and ruined her career by playing in men's tournaments and finishing near the bottom of the standings in all of them.

[pawe]

I thought we already started this movement by letting Sasha Vujacic play

I bet he's having a grand time waking up in the morning with Maria Sharapova sucking on his nuts.

[jacobdrj]

That made no sense. Are you seriously suggesting Stern do everything he can to put a women's player in the NBA when she's done nothing to deserve it?

Oh come on now, its all in good fun...

I am for a meritocracy. However, sports rarely seems like one. Too much is based on factors other than basketball ability in the NBA. If the NBA ever gets to the point where it lets the best players play, they might get to the point where specialists in tactical systems can work, and than it might be possible for a quick short fundamentally sound shooting female might crack a rotation. But since the 1st will never happen, neither would the 2nd...

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I simply didn't get the joke.

[gaKNOW!blee]

If Mugsy Bogues could make it in the NBA, then a woman can play in the NBA. Do I think there will ever be a woman post player capable of banging with Tim Duncan? No

Women do have some of the best eye hand coordination around and some of them can dunk. I can see a woman point guard or woman shooting guard who can take it to the hole, dunk or shoot the three. If nothing else, like Mugsy Bogues, just handling the rock and setting up the offense.

First of all, the girls that dunk can BARELY get it. If Candice Parker some how played in the NBA, I guarantee she would NEVER dunk. Not once. The only way she can in womens ball is when she has a fast break, but in the NBA guys like Lebron, Wade and Kobe would chase her ass down with ease. You seriously think a woman can drive on an NBA guard, and have the elevation to dunk in the midst of 7 footers?

[jacobdrj]

I simply didn't get the joke.

http://morphium.org/~bursar/images/srsly.jpg

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Seriously, was it about Nash's hair or something :lol

[jacobdrj]

First of all, the girls that dunk can BARELY get it. If Candice Parker some how played in the NBA, I guarantee she would NEVER dunk. Not once. The only way she can in womens ball is when she has a fast break, but in the NBA guys like Lebron, Wade and Kobe would chase her ass down with ease. You seriously think a woman can drive on an NBA guard, and have the elevation to dunk in the midst of 7 footers?

I don't think a 'tall' woman would ever be able to play in a mens league. But a short, very short, quick woman could theoretically get in on speed and quickness.

[gaKNOW!blee]

I don't think a 'tall' woman would ever be able to play in a mens league. But a short, very short, quick woman could theoretically get in on speed and quickness.

I really doubt it.

[lil_penny]

Woman have a place in the nba... and that's looking pretty for the camera during interviews.. it would be hard to take the nba seriously with woman playing in it.. they could be worse than euros at acting on charging fouls.

[Sigz]

Becky Hammon would show more toughness than Matt Bonner.

[YoMamaIsCallin]

I don't think so. If this were going to happen in 10 years, you'd start seeing it at lower levels now, such as high school. And you're really not seeing that at all.

Of course I'm talking about post-puberty. Kids teams can be co-ed and have been for a while.

Personally I've played pickup against women (like b-ball coaches and good HS varsity players) and they're OK but are pretty easy to guard and shotblock and shoot over because they just aren't as strong and quick. And I'm an old guy who was never athletic to begin with.

Watching the WNBA, I'd say that any man who can start at the D1 college level would dominate a WNBA game. And these are the best women players in the world.

So, given the tens of thousands of men who have that level of basketball skill and athletic ability, how is a woman ever going to make it through the process and join the 400 or so who get downselected to play at the NBA level? I just don't see it happening.

[BRHornet45]

sons we should have never allowed these chickenhead broads to even vote. its been downhill ever since ... what the hell is next? women in the NFL?

sons I say if the women want to play men sports, then lets start with boxing and see how long that last. god bless

[ffadicted]

This is fucking stupid, of course it's not going to work. People that say they could still shoot and help swing the ball in the offense.... sure, but you're looking at the wrong issue. The problem is you're constantly going to see entire offenses basically be "Give the ball to the person who the chick is guarding and let her get posterized".

I'm not sexist or anything like that, but this idea is just fucking stupid, moving on.


sons we should have never allowed these chickenhead broads to even vote. its been downhill ever since ... what the hell is next? women in the NFL?

sons I say if the women want to play men sports, then lets start with boxing and see how long that last. god bless

:lol

[024]

i recall a time when spurs fans wanted to replace michael finley and jacque vaughn with candace parker. that was funny. i don't see this completely out of the realm of possibility. a bottom of the barrel team desperate to sell tickets may just be desperate enough to pick up a talented woman to play for them.

[duhoh]

i recall a time when spurs fans wanted to replace michael finley and jacque vaughn with candace parker. that was funny. i don't see this completely out of the realm of possibility. a bottom of the barrel team desperate to sell tickets may just be desperate enough to pick up a talented woman to play for them.

look at the attendance in a wnba game. nuff said

[lefty]

You guys have been fooled by David Stern!

He is laughing at your asses !!!!!!!!

Women have had a team in the NBA for decades.

If you are from Phoenix, you know who I'm talking about

[Hornets1]

Give Candance Parker a shot; she is the best player in the WNBA and when she fails, the experiment/stupid arguement will be over

[picc84]

Women in any men's sport doesn't make sense. Michele Wie probably stained women's golf forever and ruined her career by playing in men's tournaments and finishing near the bottom of the standings in all of them.

Ouch.

I havent heard anything about her since then. Wonder why.

[picc84]

I'd love to see a woman on an nba team playing the Celtics. She gets switched onto Kendrick Perkins who slam dunks her into the basket along with the ball without changing his expression, as Garnett spews a stream of expletives into her face and Rondo punches her in the back of the head.

She'd be crying her way back to the locker room by the first tv timeout.

This was on wiretap at realgm.


[Lakers coach Phil Jackson] said he learned of the difference between the sexes when he ran a youth basketball camp in Montana early in his coaching career.

He pitted state champion high school girls team against a group of middle-school boys that had never played together.

"(The girls) were all four to six inches bigger than these boys, and they got beat by 40 points," Jackson said. "It was one of those things that opened my eyes to the differences. Even though the girls had skill and knowledge as a group and the boys hadn't played together, they just trapped and pressed and did all kinds of things that changed the game."

[jacobdrj]

Give Candance Parker a shot; she is the best player in the WNBA and when she fails, the experiment/stupid arguement will be over

It doesn't work like that. Candice is a good good basketball player, but she is a taller woman. She would probably lack the necessary quickness, and certainly lacks the strength of a comparable sized male player.

An extreme example of this is Lisa Leslie. Even in her prime, she was only better than everyone else because of her relative size.

For a woman to succeed in the NBA she would have to play to her strengths, speed, agility, and perhaps eye-hand coordination. I don't know of anyone off hand who could do it, but it could theoretically be done.

She would also have to be so much better than anyone else her size (males included) because NBA capable male players can't even get in because of the existing size bias.

[jacobdrj]

sons we should have never allowed these chickenhead broads to even vote. its been downhill ever since ... what the hell is next? women in the NFL?

sons I say if the women want to play men sports, then lets start with boxing and see how long that last. god bless

Well that is the whole issue: If they can do it, they should. If they can't (and as of right now I would agree they can't) no special treatment should be given. It is a performance based issue.

If somewhere there was some crazy woman boxer that was knocking everyone out and was doing the same in back rooms to the men, why not? It is safe to say there is nobody out there like this, but were it to happen, that person shouldn't be held back.

With all that said, I don't see it (woman in the NBA) happening.

[Scola]

The problem at the C, PF, & SF spot is that the guys in the NBA are too big, a WNBA Center like Lisa Leslie is only 6'5" (the size of an typical College/NBA shooting guard). At the NBA level the shooting guard position is usually the most athletically demanding position. Players who can shoot but lack athleticism usually tend to struggle on the defensive end (ex: JJ Redick).

Candace Parker (6'4"), arguably the best WNBA player, would have to play as an undersized SG or switch to the PG position. There are some 6'4" shooting guards (wade, gordon) but they usually make up for their lack of size by having crazy athleticism :

NSA_Di2vliU

[mogrovejo]

Diana Taurasi is the best WNBA player and it's not even close. Bench player for some minor college program - I can see her being decent in that role.