Holy Evolution Batman! We Have a New Species!

[ashbeeigh]

Feeding Birds in Winter Could Speed Evolution of Species
Without need to fly far for food, wing shapes changed rapidly, researchers say

Posted December 3, 2009

THURSDAY, Dec. 3 (HealthDay News) -- Many people think evolution takes hundreds, if not thousands, of years, but it can happen much faster and new research shows exactly how: The simple act of feeding birds in winter appears to be having an effect on a population of birds.
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Researchers, who report their findings in the Dec. 3 online edition of Current Biology, said a single population of blackcap birds has split into two distinct groups in fewer than 30 generations. The population of birds did this despite breeding next to each other in the same forests; now the birds are as different from each other in some ways as those separated by hundreds of miles.

The difference between the groups can be found in their migration patterns, which changed after humans began feeding some of the birds during winter. "The new northwest migratory route is shorter, and those birds feed on food provided by humans instead of fruits as the birds that migrate southwest do," study author H. Martin Schaefer, of the University of Freiburg in Germany, said in a news release from the journal's publisher.

"As a consequence, birds migrating northwest have rounder wings, which provide better maneuverability but make them less suited for long-distance migration," he explained.

"Our study documents the profound impact of human activities on the evolutionary trajectories of species," Schaefer said. "It shows that we are influencing the fate not only of rare and endangered species, but also of the common ones that surround our daily lives."

In the big picture, "this is a nice example of the speed of evolution," Schaefer noted. "It is something that we can see with our own eyes if we only look closely enough. It doesn't have to take millions of years."



http://health.usnews.com/articles/health/healthday/2009/12/03/feeding-birds-in-winter-could-speed-evolution-of.html

[boutons_deux]

"It doesn't have to take millions of years"

but when you do have 100s of 1000s or millions of years, you very definitely get "speciation" which the silly, deluded, ridiculous Bible-thumping creationists deny.

"Their" God (He's the Very Best, Better Than All The Rest) created all species a few 1000 years ago, along with all the fake geological record (He's a real Joker, always foolin around), and nothing has changed since then.

[BacktoBasics]

but but but the DNA hasn't changed.

[ashbeeigh]

but but but the DNA hasn't changed.

They don't mention that, it could have..we'd have to get a hold of the full article.

[CuckingFunt]

I'd be very surprised if a change in wing shape would make it impossible for the two groups of birds to successfully reproduce with each other. Sounds more like variation within a species than development of a new species.

[tlongII]

I'd be very surprised if a change in wing shape would make it impossible for the two groups of birds to successfully reproduce with each other. Sounds more like variation within a species than development of a new species.

The article isn't arguing that a new species was created.

[CuckingFunt]

The article isn't arguing that a new species was created.

I was responding to the title of the thread.

[phyzik]

I saw some show on Discovery Sunday. I think it was "Before Dinosaurs" and they where showing how manipulating bird DNA with todays birds that they could bring back traits from their dinosaur ancestors. The DNA was the same, just certain points are turned off at certain times during development.

For instance, they made one gene stay "on" causing a chicken embryo to grow a longer "dinosaur-like" tail. Another one they had grow some teeth on its beak. It was pretty interesting stuff.

[mouse]

"It doesn't have to take millions of years"

but when you do have 100s of 1000s or millions of years, you very definitely get "speciation" which the silly, deluded, ridiculous Bible-thumping creationists deny.

"Their" God (He's the Very Best, Better Than All The Rest) created all species a few 1000 years ago, along with all the fake geological record (He's a real Joker, always foolin around), and nothing has changed since then.

Wow already first reply to the topic has insults and name calling. Are you that threaten by Creationists, you have to get the first punch in?
I can see by your attitude you must be a blast to debate with.
keep up the good work your really helping the other side. :tu

[mouse]

I saw some show on Discovery Sunday. I think it was "Before Dinosaurs" and they where showing how manipulating bird DNA with todays birds that they could bring back traits from their dinosaur ancestors. The DNA was the same, just certain points are turned off at certain times during development.

For instance, they made one gene stay "on" causing a chicken embryo to grow a longer "dinosaur-like" tail. Another one they had grow some teeth on its beak. It was pretty interesting stuff.

So your saying they "Created" something?
Wow that must prove there "is " a creator? Was that the point your trying to make?

[sabar]

Speaking of bird and human interactions, there's like a thousand birds outside San Antonio Whataburgers every morning/evening.

[Cyrano]

Oh, c'mon, Mouse; just because you shaved your back and learned to drink from a cup, your species didn't change.

[phyzik]

So your saying they "Created" something?
Wow that must prove there "is " a creator? Was that the point your trying to make?

No, they didnt create the DNA. It was already there. They manipulated it to react as they presumed it did millions of years ago.... and what do you know, they where right!

[BlackSwordsMan]

instead of wings they're gonna grow claws and chase fat people around
fucking awesome

[BlackSwordsMan]

the reemergence of dinosaurs!

[phyzik]

I was wrong, the show was called Dinosaurs: Return to life?

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[mouse]

No, they didnt create the DNA. It was already there. They manipulated it to react as they presumed it did millions of years ago.... and what do you know, they where right!

So that means (if your married) you and your wife didn't create your children you just manipulated your own DNA?

Sounds to me like you Atheist have many double standards when it comes to creation. If the bible thumper's use it it's pie in the sky bullshit. if the scientist use it, it's called basic biology?

Another thing for you all in this topic, you may need to research "micro" and "macro" evolution there is a difference.

[mouse]

Oh, c'mon, Mouse; just because you shaved your back and learned to drink from a cup, your species didn't change.

It depends what's in the cup and how much of it I drink.

[phyzik]

So that means (if your married) you and your wife didn't create your children you just manipulated your own DNA?

Sounds to me like you Atheist have many double standards when it comes to creation. If the bible thumper's use it it's pie in the sky bullshit. if the scientist use it, it's called basic biology?

Another thing for you all in this topic, you may need to research "micro" and "macro" evolution there is a difference.

Your sex analogy doesnt quite work here. The egg is already fertilized with a growing embryo inside before they do any manipulation.

It would be the equivalent of modifying a fetus.


But just to humor you....

Maybe I'm doing sex wrong but I have never put my semen under a microscope and modified the "secret message" that my soldiers are going to relay to the egg. So no, Im not "modifying" anything when Im shooting live rounds.

PS:

I just posted about that show because I saw it only yesterday and thought it was interesting. I didnt post it with the intention of starting another pointless debate.

[Phenomanul]

"It doesn't have to take millions of years"

but when you do have 100s of 1000s or millions of years, you very definitely get "speciation" which the silly, deluded, ridiculous Bible-thumping creationists deny.

"Their" God (He's the Very Best, Better Than All The Rest) created all species a few 1000 years ago, along with all the fake geological record (He's a real Joker, always foolin around), and nothing has changed since then.

Actually, these rapid genetic variations (denoted by change in phenotype) contradict the notion that millions or billions of years are required to drive variation...

All it takes are for a couple of pre-existing genes within a species to be turned on or off. And as noted by the article, the effects of this process can be achieved in relatively few generations... not hundreds of thousands or millions of generations... as we are constantly led to believe.

Darwin believed (or rather presumed) his Galapagos finches required hundreds of thousands of years to adapt to their particular niches... it has been shown however, that such variations can be spurred within a matter of years (tagged finches taken off of mainland Ecuador developed similar features when relocated to the Cayman Islands after only a couple of generations)... Darwin's observations were ingenuously notable... his conclusions from those observations... not so much...

But... each side is going to see in these articles only what they want to see... regardless of the truths in the biological processes at play...

[mouse]

I didnt post it with the intention of starting another pointless debate.

Then why reply? one post is not a debate, but replying to me again and again one might feel a person likes to debate. My bad I will remember that in the future, besides I wouldn't want to upset you again, who knows what you might bring up this time to belittle me.

And I apologize to the topic starter I forgot about her Memo: she wants people to remember about her before you engage in conversations.
being in a hurry before this laptop battery dies out , I didn't even bother to see who the OP was.

carry on everyone...............

:wakeup

[MiamiHeat]

we TOLD YOU slavery affected black athletes

[Gerryatrics]

Where's the part about the new species?

[Cyrano]

instead of wings they're gonna grow claws and chase fat people around
fucking awesome

I can see it now.....they crap on your windshield, then rub YOUR nose in it!

[tp2021]

So that means (if your married) you and your wife didn't create your children you just manipulated your own DNA?


Wow, I think you must be retarded.

[tp2021]

Lewontin and Gould would say that it is irresponsible as an evolutionary biologist to explain all putative speciation as having been driven by natural selection. It could very well just be due to genetic drift. I haven't read the journal article in question, but I would hope that they've tried mating the 2 putative species in the lab to see what kind of offspring, if any, they produce.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

When those birds evolve into dogs or fish you all give me a call.

[mouse]

Wow, I think you must be retarded.


Well when you know for sure stop riding the fence,grow a pair and say so.

And how is going into a topic tossing out a 1997 insult at someone and running for the door not helping you look like a 16 year old?
not to mention it adds nothing to the topic.

[mouse]

When those birds evolve into dogs or fish you all give me a call.

The funny thing is people who seem to hate God or can't stand religion seem to trip over others to be the first to post some sort of earth shattering news about how there is new evidence we came from ape or their is life on another planet.

As if they need that conformation in their lives so they can sleep at night knowing if they die it's ok there was never a God so they don't have to worry about their souls and what sins they have committed in life.

If people today would take 1/2 the passion they have for proving Darwin is right and NASA is needed and put it to something more constructive we may already have a cure for cancer by now.

just another theory I have...


http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/aa8.jpg

[mouse]

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/vlcsnap-258480-1.png

[jacobdrj]

Where does adaptation end and speciation begin?

[tlongII]

Actually, these rapid genetic variations (denoted by change in phenotype) contradict the notion that millions or billions of years are required to drive variation...

All it takes are for a couple of pre-existing genes within a species to be turned on or off. And as noted by the article, the effects of this process can be achieved in relatively few generations... not hundreds of thousands or millions of generations... as we are constantly led to believe.

Darwin believed (or rather presumed) his Galapagos finches required hundreds of thousands of years to adapt to their particular niches... it has been shown however, that such variations can be spurred within a matter of years (tagged finches taken off of mainland Ecuador developed similar features when relocated to the Cayman Islands after only a couple of generations)... Darwin's observations were ingenuously notable... his conclusions from those observations... not so much...

But... each side is going to see in these articles only what they want to see... regardless of the truths in the biological processes at play...

Please explain the unique flora and fauna found on the continent of Australia. Do you believe that the continent of Australia broke off from the Eurasian supercontinent just a few thousand years ago? Or do you believe it was always in its present location?

[Phenomanul]

Please explain the unique flora and fauna found on the continent of Australia. Do you believe that the continent of Australia broke off from the Eurasian supercontinent just a few thousand years ago? Or do you believe it was always in its present location?

Rapid variation can occur over thousands of years... how does this adversely change what you presume I believe?

:wakeup

[tlongII]

Rapid variation can occur over thousands of years... how does this adversely change what you presume I believe?

:wakeup


Do you believe that the continent of Australia broke off from the Eurasian supercontinent just a few thousand years ago? Or do you believe it was always in its present location?


You're not really answering the question, are you?

[Phenomanul]

You're not really answering the question, are you?

I did... but apparently you missed it... fact of the matter is you posited at least two questions. I answered one. The other is irrelevant - based on the premise of the first.

:wakeup

[tlongII]

I did... but apparently you missed it... fact of the matter is you posited at least two questions. I answered one. The other is irrelevant - based on the premise of the first.

:wakeup

So your premise that species variation can occur over thousands of years makes the question of how long ago Australia separated itself from the greater Eurasian continent moot? Got it! :wakeup

[Phenomanul]

So your premise that species variation can occur over thousands of years makes the question of how long ago Australia separated itself from the greater Eurasian continent moot? Got it! :wakeup

Pretty much... yep... in light of the entrapment you thought to have created. :wakeup