One More Step in the attempt to ban Exotic Pets

[RoyerReptiles]

Hello Everyone,

I don't post that often here, but I really would like to let everyone know what's going on right now with the latest Laws/bans and exotic animals.

A few months back exotic pet owners nationwide came together to block a bill that the government tried to pass (HR669) that would have made it illegal to own just about any exotic animal. That would have included parakeets, goldfish, hamsters, ball pythons....you get the idea.

Well, they haven't stopped. The Humane Society of the United States and PETA are still at work, and they still want to take away everyone's exotics, but they are working to do it one step at a time. The latest step is S373, a.k.a. the Python ban. As currently written, S373 would ban all species of python, including the ball python, which of course is the most popular pet snake in the industry. HSUS is also working to have the boa constrictor added to the fray. This bill will have far reaching effects, since the industry has grown leaps and bounds over the years. Thousands of businesses have come up due to the breeding/selling of all sorts of supplies/cages, animals, etc. and this bill will put a LOT of people out of work, not to mention it will bankrupt thousands of families who have invested many thousands of dollars in this hobby/industry. My wife and I ourselves have close to 100,000 dollars invested in our collection, and with this bill it would all be gone overnight. The bill is based on junk science, all of course used to sensationalize something that will be a cash cow for some as well as finally meet the goals of HSUS to take more animals out of the hands of the owners who love and care for them.

We in the industry need your help. We in the hobby need your help. Please check out the links below, and help us fight to keep our rights. This will not end with pythons and boas everyone. It's just one step. They have tried to take away all exotics once before, and they won't stop unless we all come together and do something.

Thank you for your time.

Jason Royer.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1765890,1765890

and some information pertaining to the Burmese pythons in the everglades:

http://www.vpi.com/sites/vpi.com/files/OnBurmese_Florida_compressed.pdf

[LnGrrrR]

Thanks for pointing this out. If people want to keep exotic pets, and are treating them humanely, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to.

[jacobdrj]

I am not a fan of people having pets to begin with. I don't hold a snake in any different regard than owning a 'cute little puppy'.

IMHO there is no 'humane' way to have a pet.. If you need to domesticate an animal to survive, like a horse, sheep, or dogs [back in the day], fine. But people keeping animals cooped up in homes for no real purpose kind of bothers me.

[whottt]

People that have to own exotic pets are pretty much assholes that end up causing shit like this:

Po7XWitwZ3I&feature=related



Sorry but it's true. I don't think everyone has a constitutional right to own an exotic pet. And it's not simply a case of minding your own business either. My support for this depends on the exotic pets in question.

[Bender]

I used to own 2 large green iguanas, 2 boa constrictors, a burmese python, a ball python, and some I can't remember. Not all at the same time though. I had them in large enclosures, some of them custom made, and the reptiles were well taken care of.

[sabar]

Government incompetence at its finest.

1. Why is an invasive species to Florida a federal issue?
2. Why are all pythons banned instead of the one destroying wildlife?

[sabar]

I am not a fan of people having pets to begin with. I don't hold a snake in any different regard than owning a 'cute little puppy'.

IMHO there is no 'humane' way to have a pet.. If you need to domesticate an animal to survive, like a horse, sheep, or dogs [back in the day], fine. But people keeping animals cooped up in homes for no real purpose kind of bothers me.

Please. I let my pets roam outside and they prefer to stay in. Free food, no predators, and warmth. They don't even leave my yard. I'd think something that hates being confined would bolt off and never return.

[jacobdrj]

Are pitt bulls exotic?

[jacobdrj]

Please. I let my pets roam outside and they prefer to stay in. Free food, no predators, and warmth. They don't even leave my yard. I'd think something that hates being confined would bolt off and never return.

I would say you are a better pet owner than most. However, I still don't understand some people's compulsion to own a pet in the 1st place. Particularly people who have kids...

[byrontx]

Here's why:
http://www.impactlab.com/2009/05/30/pythons-invading-florida-everglades/
There is concern that we will be having a problem here in Texas as well.
Ban 'em.

[EmptyMan]

I like the assholes who bring over exotic pets to the states, let them loose, they populate like horny monkeys, and fuck up the local eco-system.

[mogrovejo]

Sorry but it's true. I don't think everyone has a constitutional right to own an exotic pet

What's the constitutional right that grants politicians the right to say if people can own animals or not?

I don't own exotic pets (although I'd like to hunt a few), but I own dogs, birds and horses, so I'm with you:


First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me.

[jacobdrj]

The strong will survive, and if the Pythons are more fit to inhabit an area, then so be it...
They will eventually find a balance with their surroundings and are a de facto part of the system...

[whottt]

Here's why:
http://www.impactlab.com/2009/05/30/pythons-invading-florida-everglades/
There is concern that we will be having a problem here in Texas as well.
Ban 'em.

Holy shit. Yeah...it's definitely one of those things where one idiot can do a lot of damage.


Making them illegal isn't going to keep people from attempting to own them though. It just creates a black market...

The idiots always screw everything up for everyone else.

[whottt]

What's the constitutional right that grants politicians the right to say if people can own animals or not?

I don't own exotic pets (although I'd like to hunt a few), but I own dogs, birds and horses, so I'm with you:


First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me.




I don't know the answer to that...but I think that woman had more right to have a face than that idiot had to own a chimp.


So how about make them legal, if their pet kill someone else, they get the death penalty for it?

Does that work?

[TheProfessor]

Government incompetence at its finest.

1. Why is an invasive species to Florida a federal issue?
2. Why are all pythons banned instead of the one destroying wildlife?
I agree with your second point. Targeting the invasive animal specifically would have the desired effect without crippling the exotic trade. Invasive species are very much a federal issue here though, since it's directly affecting 1.) national parks and 2.) species that fall under the ESA.

[TheProfessor]

What's the constitutional right that grants politicians the right to say if people can own animals or not?
Actually, that would be the commerce clause.

[whottt]

Are pitt bulls exotic?

The problem is not with the pit bull or the exotic pets, the problem is with the owners.

[EmptyMan]

The strong will survive, and if the Pythons are more fit to inhabit an area, then so be it...
They will eventually find a balance with their surroundings and are a de facto part of the system...

What's that one Asian vine that grows over everything and is relentless? Devil's tail maybe, I cannot remember.

That vine is strong and will survive, but I do not want to be living under a gotdamn vine.

[RoyerReptiles]

I was hoping not to get too caught up in this, just trying to put some of the info out there, but it's almost impossible to ignore.

Byrontx, Texas has already passed laws regarding the big five snakes, requiring permits for breeding and ownership. NEVER has any of these snakes established itself as a viable, breeding species in the state of Texas.

The only place that's viable for any of these snakes is in the southern area of Florida, i.e. the everglades. The glades have more introduced species than any area (arguably) in the world. It's the perfect survival area for these animals, but there is no real scientific proof that they will spread. The United States Geological Service came out with a report that was sponsored by HSUS saying that they could spread beyond that area, but this report was refuted by a very large group of scientists saying that no one else was allowed to review the report, it wasn't allowed a peer review. If it was it would have been completely picked apart.

The media link that you provided is typical of what we are up against. Where do you think that number (150,000) pythons came from, for example? It's made up. The truth is that the people that are feeding the media and Senator Nelson their info are some of the ones that will gain from this. If they it a national problem (saying they will spread), then federal dollars will flow in, and careers will be built combating the "python problem". Why not put a bounty on the snakes? Why not let the public remove them for money?

A good point was brought up earlier. This is a Florida problem! That is the key!!! Why should a person in Washington state lose his ball python because of the everglades? Don't you see the problem here? The Federal Government's job is to protect the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and the rest is supposed to be up to the states. With everything else going on in our country, why is everyone so willing to allow the government to have so much say in our daily lives?

I'm not talking chimpanzees, big cats, nile crocodiles or great white sharks. I'm talking about ALL exotics being the eventual goal, and by exotic I mean any animal that is not native to the United States. By that I mean gerbils, hamsters, ferrets, goldfish, parakeets, all sorts of lizards, pythons, boas, there are so many more.

Two key points here with the python ban:

1. In the last 30 years there has been less than one death a year from large pythons, and all but three of the deaths were the owner of the snake. The other 3 were people living in the house, and those three deaths were surrounded by doubt (meaning foul play was suspected in the death, including the little girl who was killed recently in Florida). NO ONE living outside the house of the snake has ever been killed or seriously injured by a python. This eliminates the "Threat to the Public".

2. In the years that this hobby/business has been around, there has been only one area of the country that pythons, in this case Burmese pythons, have been known to be able to live and breed in. No other area is inhabitable by these animals. No other area provides the year round climate to support them. It's a Florida issue, not a Federal issue.

[RoyerReptiles]

I do believe that animals such as monkees, big cats, wolves, etc. should be regulated, but I also believe that it's a state issue, not a federal one. The federal government has overstepped it's bounds on so many occasions, and it's obviously at a ridiculously powerful level.

A few Thomas Jefferson quotes about big government:

"Most bad government has grown out of too much government."


"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

[SnakeBoy]

There is concern that we will be having a problem here in Texas as well.


No there isn't, unless your an idiot. It gets too cold here. In fact it gets to cold for them in all but the southern tip of Florida. And eventually a really strong cold front will put even the southern tip of Florida down into the low 40's as it has in the past and that will do quite a number on any invasive population of pythons.




My support for this depends on the exotic pets in question.

This is part of Senator Bill Nelsons war on pythons ever since that toddler was killed. He gave the link to Dave and Tracy Barkers article on the subject which explains it quite well.
http://www.vpi.com/sites/vpi.com/files/OnBurmese_Florida_compressed.pdf

[jacobdrj]

What's that one Asian vine that grows over everything and is relentless? Devil's tail maybe, I cannot remember.

That vine is strong and will survive, but I do not want to be living under a gotdamn vine.

Grapes?

Those grape vines are all over here and kill all the trees...

[admiralsnackbar]

The strong will survive, and if the Pythons are more fit to inhabit an area, then so be it...
They will eventually find a balance with their surroundings and are a de facto part of the system...

That logic has worked out great with zebra clams, kudzu, and snake-fish.

[admiralsnackbar]

The bill is based on junk science, all of course used to sensationalize something that will be a cash cow for some as well as finally meet the goals of HSUS to take more animals out of the hands of the owners who love and care for them.

So who do you see profiting from this, Jason? Honest question.

[byrontx]

For a few species, however, larger areas of the continental United States appear to exhibit suitable climatic conditions. For example, much of the southern U.S. climatic conditions are similar to those experienced by the Burmese python in its native range. However, many factors other than climate alone can influence whether a species can establish a population in a particular location, the report notes.

http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=2324

Snakes are not companions; they are creatures that belong in their place not stuck in a cage. Ban 'em.

[coyotes_geek]

Thanks for pointing this out. If people want to keep exotic pets, and are treating them humanely, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to.

My libertarian side wants to agree with this, but then I've got a friend who runs a shelter for exotic pets that have been abused or abandoned. Whether the actual bill being discussed goes to far or not I don't know, but conceptually I'm not opposed to government making these pets harder for people to get.

[TheProfessor]

It's a Florida issue, not a Federal issue.
Burmese pythons directly impact a national park and several species under the Endangered Species Act living there. Exotics are a part of interstate commerce that rakes in quite a bit of money (you being a prime example). Talk about scope of the legislation all you want, but it's a federal problem.

[mogrovejo]

I don't know the answer to that...but I think that woman had more right to have a face than that idiot had to own a chimp.


So how about make them legal, if their pet kill someone else, they get the death penalty for it?

Does that work?

Personally I'm opposed to death penalty, but I think that's another whole different issue. I'm not in favour of prohibiting the ownership guns but using guns to kill people should be penalized, sure. I don't see the rationale for the legal frame to be any different than the one to non-exotic animals.

Is there such a big problem with exotic pets killing people? If I had to guess I'd say that dogs kill more people than exotic pets put together.


Actually, that would be the commerce clause.

Woudn't that give the Congress the power to regulate commerce of animals and not their ownership?

[RoyerReptiles]

On the profit subject: You have to look at the group of "scientists" and "experts" that are feeding this information to the media, senator Nelson, the rest of the Senators, etc. etc. They are the same group of people that have been "running" the removal of the invasive Brown tree snake in Guam. In short, the Brown tree snake was brought to Guam during the second World War on Military transports and has been eradicating rare birds in Guam. The U.S. government has spent millions of dollars at the request of the "experts" over there, yet the population hasn't been brought down, in fact, Guam has some of the densest populations of snakes in the world. The "experts" from Guam have learned how to receive millions of dollars for this, and they are working hard to bring that money to Florida. So is Senator Nelson. The everglades project was a multibillion dollar restoration project years ago, but funding has slowed considerably. By making this a national problem, the flood gates will open and money will flow a lot more freely again.

And Byrontx, I have to question why you would be so easily swayed into banning something like that, without taking into account all of the people whose lives would be destroyed. That's right, destroyed. It's a dream of many people to be able to live their lives freely and un-impeded by the government, to pursue happiness, and you are willing to just throw that word around so freely. Ban 'em. Very ignorant on the subject. There are thousands of people in this country now who own businesses that deal exclusively in products that either support boas/pythons or breed them to sell to people like me, people that are fascinated by them, and love them. It's unfortunate that so many people are willing to just say "ban 'em" so freely. I don't know what you are into, but maybe I'll try an example. Let's say you love hot rods. You have a 69 camaro that's just cherry. But since the government is trying to go "green", they get to a point where your car is considered not "eco" friendly, and you have to turn your car in. They ban it. That would suck for all the old car people, and small steps were taken towards that recently with the "cash for clunkers" program.

And you can't tell me that the USGS, (G being for "geological") survey actually swayed you. A LONG list of scientist wiped their ass with that piece of work, calling it unscientific. Here's the quote:


“It is a misrepresentation to call the USGS document ‘scientific’” stated the scientists. “As written, this [USGS] document is not suitable as the basis for legislative or regulatory policies, as its content is not based on best science practices, it has not undergone external peer-review, and it diverts attention away from the primary concern. We encourage the USFWS and USGS to submit this document to an independent body for proper and legitimate peer review. Additionally, we encourage the Committee to review this document, not as an authoritative scientific publication, but rather as a report currently drafted to support a predetermined policy”.

And here's the list of scientists that signed the letter sent to Congress:

Elliott Jacobson, MS, DVM, PhD, Dipl. ACZM
Professor of Zoological Medicine
University of Florida

Dale DeNardo, DVM, PhD
Associate Professor School of Life Sciences
Arizona State University

Paul M. Gibbons, DVM, MS, Dipl. ABVP (Avian)
President-Elect, Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians
Interim Regent, Reptiles & Amphibians, American Board of Veterinary Practitioners
Director, Exotic Species Specialty Service
Animal Emergency Center and Specialty Services

Chris Griffin, DVM, Dipl. ABVP (Avian)
President, Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians
Owner and Medical Director
Griffin Avian and Exotic Veterinary Hospital

Brady Barr, PhD
Resident Herpetologist
National Geographic Society
Endangered Species Coalition of the Council of State Governments
Crocodilian Specialist Group

Warren Booth, PhD
Invasive Species Biologist
Research Associate
North Carolina State University
Director of Science
United States Association of Reptile Keepers

Ray E. Ashton, Jr.
President
Ashton Biodiversity Research & Preservation Institute

Robert Herrington, PhD
Professor of Biology
Georgia Southwestern State University

Douglas L. Hotle
Curator of Herpetology/Conservation/Research
Natural Toxins Research Center
Texas A&M University

Francis L. Rose (Retired) , B.S., M.S. (Zoology), PhD (Zoology)
Professor Emeritus
Texas State University

Edward J. Wozniak DVM, PhD
Regional Veterinarian
Zoonosis Control Division
Texas Department of State Health Services

Why take away something, a FREEDOM, a right, away from Americans based on junk science?

[Bender]

I don't know what you are into, but maybe I'll try an example. Let's say you love hot rods. You have a 69 camaro that's just cherry. But since the government is trying to go "green", they get to a point where your car is considered not "eco" friendly, and you have to turn your car in. They ban it. That would suck for all the old car people, and small steps were taken towards that recently with the "cash for clunkers" program.
spot on. It's a slippery slope. They ban something you don't really care about, then tomorrow they ban something you do care about.

Until someday you can't really do anything, other than sit in front of your big screen TV and get spoon-fed some MSM. Oh, wait, aren't they trying to ban big screen TVs in CA now...?

[mogrovejo]

I agree with the previous 2 posts.

If the commerce of ownership of exotic pets produce negative externalities, than prove that existence, calculate the value and apply a reasonable Pigovian Tax.

[DarkReign]

Exotic pet owners can join the ever-expanding list of Americans who have their rights as human beings trounced on by government, whether local, state or federal.

Smokers
Obese people
Exotic pet owners
Torrent users
[insert future member here]

[EmptyMan]

That logic has worked out great with zebra clams, kudzu, and snake-fish.

ah, that's the name of it.

http://writersforensicsblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/kudzu-covered-house.jpg

[TheProfessor]

Woudn't that give the Congress the power to regulate commerce of animals and not their ownership?
In the aggregate, those purchasing exotic animals would be said to have a substantial effect on interstate commerce under current SC precedent.

[jacobdrj]

That logic has worked out great with zebra clams, kudzu, and snake-fish.

How do you figure?

They invaded. You can't un-invade them. They are a part of the eco system. The strong will survive. Change is a constant. People like things to stay stagnant, but the reality is there is nothing you can do at this point to make everything the way it was. The best thing you can do it learn to cope, as the environment will eventually on its own.

[admiralsnackbar]

How do you figure?

They invaded. You can't un-invade them. They are a part of the eco system. The strong will survive. Change is a constant. People like things to stay stagnant, but the reality is there is nothing you can do at this point to make everything the way it was. The best thing you can do it learn to cope, as the environment will eventually on its own.

Precisely because you can't "uninvade" species, the logic seems to be that you can prevent or slow down invasions so they don't catastrophically impact economies and ecosystems. By the same token, however, I don't see the value in a straight ban since it'll only drive the trade of animals into unregulated underground markets, which is almost certainly more dangerous.

++++++++++

EDIT: I'm still curious who profits from this bill. Law enforcement, maybe? Anyone else?

++++++++++++

EDIT 2: nm, just saw your reply.

[jacobdrj]

Precisely because you can't "uninvade" species, the logic seems to be that you can prevent or slow down invasions so they don't catastrophically impact economies and ecosystems. By the same token, however, I don't see the value in a straight ban since it'll only drive the trade of animals into unregulated underground markets, which is almost certainly more dangerous.


I am not quite following your point. If a species has already invaded, what difference does it make to bring in more? If the ecosystem can support more, they will breed themselves.

I guess if people care about these invasions they have the right to burn their money any way they choose, but it just seems like a waste of time and effort to me.

[admiralsnackbar]

I am not quite following your point. If a species has already invaded, what difference does it make to bring in more? If the ecosystem can support more, they will breed themselves.



In an ultimate sense, I agree with you. But slowing down the rate at which an invasive species takes over an ecosystem/economy buys people time to plan against/adapt to, changes. 30 rogue pythons will take over a given landmass much quicker than 10 regulated ones.... see what I'm saying?

[jacobdrj]

Well put. Excellent point.

[Blake]

Exotic pet owners can join the ever-expanding list of Americans who have their rights as human beings trounced on by government, whether local, state or federal.

Smokers
Obese people
Exotic pet owners
Torrent users
[insert future member here]


what rights have been trounced on in regards to smokers and obese people?

[Blake]

Personally I'm opposed to death penalty, but I think that's another whole different issue. I'm not in favour of prohibiting the ownership guns but using guns to kill people should be penalized, sure. I don't see the rationale for the legal frame to be any different than the one to non-exotic animals.

Is there such a big problem with exotic pets killing people? If I had to guess I'd say that dogs kill more people than exotic pets put together.


I'm betting the python bill is getting attention because of the young girl that was killed by a Burmese python some months ago.

[Blake]

Hello Everyone,

I don't post that often here, but I really would like to let everyone know what's going on right now with the latest Laws/bans and exotic animals.

A few months back exotic pet owners nationwide came together to block a bill that the government tried to pass (HR669) that would have made it illegal to own just about any exotic animal. That would have included parakeets, goldfish, hamsters, ball pythons....you get the idea.

Well, they haven't stopped. The Humane Society of the United States and PETA are still at work, and they still want to take away everyone's exotics, but they are working to do it one step at a time. The latest step is S373, a.k.a. the Python ban. As currently written, S373 would ban all species of python, including the ball python, which of course is the most popular pet snake in the industry. HSUS is also working to have the boa constrictor added to the fray. This bill will have far reaching effects, since the industry has grown leaps and bounds over the years. Thousands of businesses have come up due to the breeding/selling of all sorts of supplies/cages, animals, etc. and this bill will put a LOT of people out of work, not to mention it will bankrupt thousands of families who have invested many thousands of dollars in this hobby/industry. My wife and I ourselves have close to 100,000 dollars invested in our collection, and with this bill it would all be gone overnight. The bill is based on junk science, all of course used to sensationalize something that will be a cash cow for some as well as finally meet the goals of HSUS to take more animals out of the hands of the owners who love and care for them.

We in the industry need your help. We in the hobby need your help. Please check out the links below, and help us fight to keep our rights. This will not end with pythons and boas everyone. It's just one step. They have tried to take away all exotics once before, and they won't stop unless we all come together and do something.

Thank you for your time.

Jason Royer.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1765890,1765890

and some information pertaining to the Burmese pythons in the everglades:

http://www.vpi.com/sites/vpi.com/files/OnBurmese_Florida_compressed.pdf


http://www.royerreptiles.com/RoyerReptiles.html

how much cash cow will you lose if the bill passes?

how much does one of your ball pythons cost?

[DarkReign]

what rights have been trounced on in regards to smokers and obese people?

The rights of private property ownership. Right of an adult establishment to cater to adults.

Obese people...eh, not so much a right per say, but affordable healthcare. Guy I work with had to go to the doctor yesterday for a physical because his wife's insurance requires a full physical to gauge blood pressure, heart rate and your BMI as cost indicators.

I should say I predict obese people will be added to that list soon for some other equally ridiculous reason.

[byrontx]

On the profit subject: You have to look at the group of "scientists" and "experts" that are feeding this information to the media, senator Nelson, the rest of the Senators, etc. etc. They are the same group of people that have been "running" the removal of the invasive Brown tree snake in Guam. In short, the Brown tree snake was brought to Guam during the second World War on Military transports and has been eradicating rare birds in Guam. The U.S. government has spent millions of dollars at the request of the "experts" over there, yet the population hasn't been brought down, in fact, Guam has some of the densest populations of snakes in the world. The "experts" from Guam have learned how to receive millions of dollars for this, and they are working hard to bring that money to Florida. So is Senator Nelson. The everglades project was a multibillion dollar restoration project years ago, but funding has slowed considerably. By making this a national problem, the flood gates will open and money will flow a lot more freely again.

And Byrontx, I have to question why you would be so easily swayed into banning something like that, without taking into account all of the people whose lives would be destroyed. That's right, destroyed. It's a dream of many people to be able to live their lives freely and un-impeded by the government, to pursue happiness, and you are willing to just throw that word around so freely. Ban 'em. Very ignorant on the subject. There are thousands of people in this country now who own businesses that deal exclusively in products that either support boas/pythons or breed them to sell to people like me, people that are fascinated by them, and love them. It's unfortunate that so many people are willing to just say "ban 'em" so freely. I don't know what you are into, but maybe I'll try an example. Let's say you love hot rods. You have a 69 camaro that's just cherry. But since the government is trying to go "green", they get to a point where your car is considered not "eco" friendly, and you have to turn your car in. They ban it. That would suck for all the old car people, and small steps were taken towards that recently with the "cash for clunkers" program.

And you can't tell me that the USGS, (G being for "geological") survey actually swayed you. A LONG list of scientist wiped their ass with that piece of work, calling it unscientific. Here's the quote:


“It is a misrepresentation to call the USGS document ‘scientific’” stated the scientists. “As written, this [USGS] document is not suitable as the basis for legislative or regulatory policies, as its content is not based on best science practices, it has not undergone external peer-review, and it diverts attention away from the primary concern. We encourage the USFWS and USGS to submit this document to an independent body for proper and legitimate peer review. Additionally, we encourage the Committee to review this document, not as an authoritative scientific publication, but rather as a report currently drafted to support a predetermined policy”.

And here's the list of scientists that signed the letter sent to Congress:

Elliott Jacobson, MS, DVM, PhD, Dipl. ACZM
Professor of Zoological Medicine
University of Florida

Dale DeNardo, DVM, PhD
Associate Professor School of Life Sciences
Arizona State University

Paul M. Gibbons, DVM, MS, Dipl. ABVP (Avian)
President-Elect, Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians
Interim Regent, Reptiles & Amphibians, American Board of Veterinary Practitioners
Director, Exotic Species Specialty Service
Animal Emergency Center and Specialty Services

Chris Griffin, DVM, Dipl. ABVP (Avian)
President, Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians
Owner and Medical Director
Griffin Avian and Exotic Veterinary Hospital

Brady Barr, PhD
Resident Herpetologist
National Geographic Society
Endangered Species Coalition of the Council of State Governments
Crocodilian Specialist Group

Warren Booth, PhD
Invasive Species Biologist
Research Associate
North Carolina State University
Director of Science
United States Association of Reptile Keepers

Ray E. Ashton, Jr.
President
Ashton Biodiversity Research & Preservation Institute

Robert Herrington, PhD
Professor of Biology
Georgia Southwestern State University

Douglas L. Hotle
Curator of Herpetology/Conservation/Research
Natural Toxins Research Center
Texas A&M University

Francis L. Rose (Retired) , B.S., M.S. (Zoology), PhD (Zoology)
Professor Emeritus
Texas State University

Edward J. Wozniak DVM, PhD
Regional Veterinarian
Zoonosis Control Division
Texas Department of State Health Services

Why take away something, a FREEDOM, a right, away from Americans based on junk science?

Royer, I will qualify my statement about banning them. If you want to raise them as a food source to recover your investment I am fine with that but as long as they can get in the hands of an irresponsible that will release them into environments they are not native to, I have a problem with that. Come up with any type of solution that addresses that (mandatory sterilization for purchasers not having a breeder's license) and I am fine with it.

The whole "Big Government" argument does not carry a lot of weight with me. Until we can breed people to be smarter and more responsible I am all for using government regulations where necessary to keep them in line. You may be one of those smarter and more responsible types but a hell of a lot of people aren't.

[Blake]

The rights of private property ownership. Right of an adult establishment to cater to adults.

not really. Smoking is a health issue to others in establishment where the act of smoking is not what the premises is meant to be used for.

/hijack

[byrontx]

I occupy an unique environmental niche myself; I am willing to listen to an opposing view and change my mind if new facts indicate I should. I couldn't make it as a politician, I guess, because I would be known as a "flopper." After reading this:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0002931

I am less concerned about the spread/invasion of these large reptiles but I am still inclined towards sterilized snakes at retail level (I advocate that for other pets, too).

Okay, here's the change: No ban-more control.

[BacktoBasics]

No question dogs are responsible for more needless deaths than any 5 exotics combined. For the ones mouthing off in here against this guys plight are you as willing to ban domestic cats and dogs?

[Blake]

No question dogs are responsible for more needless deaths than any 5 exotics combined. For the ones mouthing off in here against this guys plight are you as willing to ban domestic cats and dogs?

how many needless deaths are due to domestic cats or chihuahuas?

[BacktoBasics]

how many needless deaths are due to domestic cats or chihuahuas?How many deaths are due to grass snakes and hamsters?

[Blake]

How many deaths are due to grass snakes and hamsters?

not sure, but if they might pose a threat to our environment then I would say we need to deal with them appropriately. If that ultimately means a ban on them in residential neighborhoods, I've got no problem with that.

I don't, however, see the point in banning cats or dogs that are not known to kill people.

[BacktoBasics]

not sure, but if they might pose a threat to our environment then I would say we need to deal with them appropriately. If that ultimately means a ban on them in residential neighborhoods, I've got no problem with that.

I don't, however, see the point in banning cats or dogs that are not known to kill people.
Then you have made my point.

[DarkReign]

not really. Smoking is a health issue to others in establishment where the act of smoking is not what the premises is meant to be used for.

/hijack

Private ownership of said property determines what the property is meant for. That has been superceded. Laws that ban smoking in establishments that require an adult age limit (18 or 21) are proof positive that yo do not own your property, you mearly lease it from the moral conscience and corporate power struggle.

The smoking ban is a competition between two industries, the insurance and tobacco industries. One has far more clout and influence now than the other.

Moreover, if government cared about your health as you think they do, then they'd ban it outright like they did alcohol. But that would eliminate a billion dollar industry that still has at least a shred of power left in government.

No, this isnt about health issues. This is about the expansion of power for government and special interests groups with enough money to sick the attack dogs.

But I quit smoking three weeks ago, so really, I dont care. Doesnt change the fact that its just more of the same from the pro-government crowd.

[admiralsnackbar]

I occupy an unique environmental niche myself; I am willing to listen to an opposing view and change my mind if new facts indicate I should. I couldn't make it as a politician, I guess, because I would be known as a "flopper." After reading this:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0002931

I am less concerned about the spread/invasion of these large reptiles but I am still inclined towards sterilized snakes at retail level (I advocate that for other pets, too).

Okay, here's the change: No ban-more control.
It's nice to read someone who doesn't invest so much ego in their posts that they feel incapable of revising their opinion. Props :toast

[RoyerReptiles]

Byrontx,

I agree, it's good that you are willing to pull away from a total ban. I agree that certain things do need to be regulated, but I also do believe in more control for each state and less big government control. Florida already has some really good laws in the books on the "big five" snakes, they just need to enforce those. The U.S. government has much bigger problems to deal with, leave stuff like this to the states that are affected. I believe that if a person can prove that they have the proper knowledge and caging, they should be allowed to have any snake that they want. Burmese pythons, reticulated pythons, anacondas, these snakes are a handful and not for beginners. But they are amazing animals and are a blast to have as pets if you are ready for them and know what to expect. I've had burmese pythons off and on over the years, and I love them as pets. They're fascinating animals, but not something that should be easily obtained through a pet shop to someone who is "green" on the subject.

Banning all of these snakes won't help the everglades. What's done is done. What banning them would do is alienate and hurt the very best resource the Everglades has in how to combat the burmese issue, the very people who care for these animals for a living. The most knowledgeable people on the subject haven't really been tapped for help. If the government is willing to work with the industry together, we can all come up with the best solution to fight the problem.

Banning them also won't really do anything for the rest of the states either. The rest of the states already have the best thing on their side: climate and terrain. The 'glades is a perfect place for these animals to thrive, but there really isn't another place like that in the lower 48. Once temps drop down to the low 60's and 50's, pythons and boas start to have tons of problems. Not so much if it's very quick, but if it's nightly, the animals can't really last all that long. I have tons of problems if my room gets too low in temp, and I'm not talking about freezing temps either.

Right now, according to the latest on the bill (S373), my ball pythons will be unaffected. It's just my boa collection. The stupid thing, though, is that there has never EVER been a case of a boa constrictor killing a person in the U.S.A. NEVER! I'll be able to keep them, but I won't be able to sell them across state lines. I think I could breed them, unless Texas changes it's mind. Cutting off interstate commerce destroys my snakes values. I don't know how much they're all worth now, but the potential offspring values is where I lose most. Thousands. Tens of thousands.

To answer the question on the ball python prices: Kingsnake.com classifieds has the most current prices. It's kinda like the eBay for snakes. I produce stuff that runs anywhere from 10 bucks each up to a few thousand each. Depends on the animal's color and pattern. For example, albino ball pythons go for around 400 bucks.

[whottt]

Private ownership of said property determines what the property is meant for. That has been superceded. Laws that ban smoking in establishments that require an adult age limit (18 or 21) are proof positive that yo do not own your property, you mearly lease it from the moral conscience and corporate power struggle.

Just so you know who you're arguing with:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoking_ban


The first modern, nationwide tobacco ban was imposed by the Nazi Party in every German university, post office, military hospital, and Nazi Party office, under the auspices of Karl Astel's Institute for Tobacco Hazards Research, created in 1941 under orders from Adolf Hitler.[24] Major anti-tobacco campaigns were widely broadcast by the Nazis until the demise of the regime in 1945.[25]

[Wild Cobra]

Congress again, at it's finest.

When will people learn to stop electing the morons who want to infringe of our God given rights?

Genesis 1:28:


And God blessed them: and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

[DarkReign]

Just so you know who you're arguing with:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoking_ban

Him and I argued about this (i think) last year. He doesnt seem to want to admit that a smoking ban is, in fact, an assault on the rights of adults everywhere only because this assault is something that pleases him personally as a non-smoker.

[Blake]

Just so you know who you're arguing with:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoking_ban

so being able to blow your carcenogenic second hand smoke in a public place makes you more American.

Just so everyone knows who I'm arguing with.

[Blake]

Him and I argued about this (i think) last year. He doesnt seem to want to admit that a smoking ban is, in fact, an assault on the rights of adults everywhere only because this assault is something that pleases him personally as a non-smoker.

:lol How is keeping polluted air out of a public place "an assault on the rights of adults everywhere"?

smokers are funny. :lol

[Blake]

Right now, according to the latest on the bill (S373), my ball pythons will be unaffected. It's just my boa collection. The stupid thing, though, is that there has never EVER been a case of a boa constrictor killing a person in the U.S.A. NEVER! I'll be able to keep them, but I won't be able to sell them across state lines. I think I could breed them, unless Texas changes it's mind. Cutting off interstate commerce destroys my snakes values. I don't know how much they're all worth now, but the potential offspring values is where I lose most. Thousands. Tens of thousands.


thanks for stating your agenda.