Why is Joe Dumars reguarded as a great GM?

[Thunder Dan]

Whenever a poll comes out as to who the best GMs are, Joe is always at the top. Even last year when they traded Billups, the hot talk was Lebron was going to Detroit so he could play on Dumars' team because he is such a genius. Why? He put together a couple good teams, but he has some major blunders.

He picked Darko over Bosh, Wade, and Carmelo.

He traded Billups for what would become Ben Gordon, basically tanking the 2008-09 season

Most of his draft picks in recent years aren't even on the Pistons anymore: Aflallo, Amir Johnson, Carlos Delfino to name a couple

[Pero]

I didn't know he was reguarded. :p:

[monosylab1k]

http://a.espncdn.com/i/magazine/new/pistons_ring.jpg

[Fpoonsie]

Barbosa trying and failing to "reguard".

b3Y38z_QC04

[Thunder Dan]

I FAIL at spelling

[Double-Up]

Is Danny Ferry regarded as a great GM? :lol

[Culburn369]

How bout Kupchak?

tee, hee.

[ginobili's bald spot]

I'm not sure people consider him a good GM anymore. At least they shouldn't because he's horrible. I know he got a lot of praise for constructing that championship team but it's really been nothing but mistakes for him ever since then.

[Thunder Dan]

Is Danny Ferry regarded as a great GM? :lol

no, he isn't and I don't think he should be. But I don't understand why Dumars is. The guy for the Lakers is, dude in Oklahoma City is good, but Dumars is middle of the road just like Ferry

[Double-Up]

I didn't know he was reguarded. :p:

The motherfucker can't even spell, which is nothing new... :rollin

[Thunder Dan]

I'm not sure people consider him a good GM anymore. At least they shouldn't because he's horrible. I know he got a lot of praise for constructing that championship team but it's really been nothing but mistakes for him ever since then.

How good would this Pistons be if they took Wade, Bosh or Carmelo in 2003? They could have been one of the biggest dynasties since Jordan. They were in the Conference Finals for like 5 years without those guys, not reason they couldn't have won the East and a couple more rings with one of them.

[JamStone]

Dumars has made plenty of mistakes, and several of them huge, huge mistakes. He deserves as much criticism as he does praise.

But, it still stands that he built a championship team without a franchise superstar player, without a max player. His two leaders and most important players on that team (Billups and Ben Wallace) were both MLE players. There is no other GM over the last 30 years in the NBA who can claim they were able to build a title winning team the way Dumars did. That carries quite a bit of weight.

That's why. He's not perfect. He's made some mind-boggling, bone-headed moves. But, he also crafted and constructed the most impressive and most improbable championship team since probably the 1979 Seattle Sonics. Dumars is also seen as forward thinking, a big picture GM who doesn't make moves simply for an immediate result, but for long term results. Trading Billups for what amounts to Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva doesn't look good right now, but neither did trading the then franchise Jerry Stackhouse for a skinny Rip Hamilton who didn't play defense. The Tigers traded John Smoltz for Doyle Alexander, who helped the Tigers get into the playoffs in 1987. It was viewed as a good trade at the time for the Tigers. Can't really accurately evaluate the Billups trade for several years.

Dumars does get some unwarranted praise as a great GM. In truth, he's a pretty good GM who makes his share of mistakes, just like pretty much every other GM in the league. But, Dumars' downfall might be because the fact he often gets free passes by the media and even much of the Pistons fanbase because of that. Perhaps overconfidence in his abilities as GM and as a forward thinker, perhaps hubris, perhaps out-thinking himself. But, then again, take a look around the league and you might find 2-3 GMs who are clearly better than Dumars. The rest haven't done squat either and have also made their share of mistakes.

[Culburn369]

That's adorable, Jam.

[JamStone]

How good would this Pistons be if they took Wade, Bosh or Carmelo in 2003? They could have been one of the biggest dynasties since Jordan. They were in the Conference Finals for like 5 years without those guys, not reason they couldn't have won the East and a couple more rings with one of them.

That's assuming a lot. And, there is no point in bringing up Wade or Bosh. It was either Darko and Carmelo and every GM in the league then would have only those two choices as well. Those were the two choices and those two alone. And, there were plenty of NBA GMs who would have chosen Darko as well.

And, even if the Pistons chose Carmelo, it's assuming too much to think they would have become a dynasty. First of all, Larry Brown would have sat Carmelo's ass down just like he did for the 2004 Olympics. Carmelo wouldn't have become the stud nearly as quickly because he wouldn't have seen as much PT, as much touches, and he would have had a quick hook on him. Plus, Larry Brown loooooooved Tayshaun Prince. And, if they figured a way to play Carmelo at PF, then the Pistons might not have traded for Rasheed Wallace. No Rasheed Wallace, no championship, definitely no dynasty.

You have to understand that making a different draft selection also changes the rest of the season for the Pistons. And, even with Carmelo, no matter how much you want to argue it, there's no guarantee of a title, in 2004 or afterward.

[baseline bum]

How good would this Pistons be if they took Wade, Bosh or Carmelo in 2003? They could have been one of the biggest dynasties since Jordan. They were in the Conference Finals for like 5 years without those guys, not reason they couldn't have won the East and a couple more rings with one of them.

Stupid pick definitely, as you had 4 all-star talents who were clearly ready to contribute at that level right away in James, Anthony, Bosh, and Wade. Still, how can you not be impressed that he took a one-man team that lost that one guy in 2000 to a title only 4 years later? That one horrible pick doesn't even begin to erase taking what was maybe the worst situation in the league and turning it into a title. The 99-00 Pistons were a horrible team without Grant Hill. That whole roster was complete trash outside of him. What Dumars did was equivalent to someone walking into Charlotte and making them into the Celtics.

As for the Billups trade, he knew they weren't winning a title and that Chauncey was getting old. Dumars knew exactly what he was doing in trading for an expiring contract in Iverson.

[Thunder Dan]

That's assuming a lot. And, there is no point in bringing up Wade or Bosh. It was either Darko and Carmelo and every GM in the league then would have only those two choices as well. Those were the two choices and those two alone. And, there were plenty of NBA GMs who would have chosen Darko as well.

And, even if the Pistons chose Carmelo, it's assuming too much to think they would have become a dynasty. First of all, Larry Brown would have sat Carmelo's ass down just like he did for the 2004 Olympics. Carmelo wouldn't have become the stud nearly as quickly because he wouldn't have seen as much PT, as much touches, and he would have had a quick hook on him. Plus, Larry Brown loooooooved Tayshaun Prince. And, if they figured a way to play Carmelo at PF, then the Pistons might not have traded for Rasheed Wallace. No Rasheed Wallace, no championship, definitely no dynasty.

You have to understand that making a different draft selection also changes the rest of the season for the Pistons. And, even with Carmelo, no matter how much you want to argue it, there's no guarantee of a title, in 2004 or afterward.

but if you just think that if that pick they owned happened to be in the top 5 in any spot other than the #2 spot that it was, they would have fallen into a future Hall of Famer. Like going into it, if you had a top 5 pick in 2003 you had a 80% chance at getting a future NBA great, yet the #2 pick was the one that didn't pan out.

[Thunder Dan]

Stupid pick definitely, as you had 4 all-star talents who were clearly ready to contribute at that level right away in James, Anthony, Bosh, and Wade. Still, how can you not be impressed that he took a one-man team that lost that one guy in 2000 to a title only 4 years later? That one horrible pick doesn't even begin to erase taking what was maybe the worst situation in the league and turning it into a title. The 99-00 Pistons were a horrible team without Grant Hill. That whole roster was complete trash outside of him. What Dumars did was equivalent to someone walking into Charlotte and making them into the Celtics.

As for the Billups trade, he knew they weren't winning a title and that Chauncey was getting old. Dumars knew exactly what he was doing in trading for an expiring contract in Iverson.

I know. I understand the Darko pick, I really do because I remember his hype. But, I still don't get the Billups trade. He traded him because his is old, but he traded him to basically turn a 6th man into a starter and a star player. That is what I don't get. I could see if he traded him to clear room and he signed Bosh or Wade or something, but he got Ben Gordon. He traded an All Star who was getting old for a guy who might make a single All Star game his whole career if everything goes well

[lefty]

I'm not sure people consider him a good GM anymore. At least they shouldn't because he's horrible. I know he got a lot of praise for constructing that championship team but it's really been nothing but mistakes for him ever since then.
Spot on.

[JamStone]

Now you're talking about luck. I didn't argue that the Darko pick was good. It was a horrible pick, very likely as bad as any high lottery pick in the history of the NBA draft. Now, you're talking about changing the Pistons' "luck" when you're criticizing Joe Dumars as a GM.

I'm telling you right now that at the time of the 2003 NBA Draft, every NBA GM would have told you that if they had the #2 pick after LeBron got drafted, they would have either chosen Carmelo or Darko. There were no other possibilities. So lamenting over Wade or Bosh is moot; criticizing Joe for not selecting Wade or Bosh not relevant. It was a mistake, a huge mistake. And Dumars should never get a pass for it. It could have been huge for the Pistons. But, it still would not have guaranteed a title, much less a dynasty.


BTW, on tangent, you think Chris Bosh is a future Hall of Famer?

[baseline bum]

I know. I understand the Darko pick, I really do because I remember his hype. But, I still don't get the Billups trade. He traded him because his is old, but he traded him to basically turn a 6th man into a starter and a star player. That is what I don't get. I could see if he traded him to clear room and he signed Bosh or Wade or something, but he got Ben Gordon. He traded an All Star who was getting old for a guy who might make a single All Star game his whole career if everything goes well

I think it turned out to be a decent move. You're not going to get a young all-star for an old one, and saving capspace for 2010 would be disastrous because they would have been competing with New York, New Jersey, Miami, Chicago, and lots of other teams clearing room for next summer.

[baseline bum]

I'm not sure people consider him a good GM anymore. At least they shouldn't because he's horrible. I know he got a lot of praise for constructing that championship team but it's really been nothing but mistakes for him ever since then.

So you disagree with him not re-signing Ben Wallace to that $60 million contract in 2006, for example?

[lefty]

Now you're talking about luck. I didn't argue that the Darko pick was good. It was a horrible pick, very likely as bad as any high lottery pick in the history of the NBA draft. Now, you're talking about changing the Pistons' "luck" when you're criticizing Joe Dumars as a GM.

I'm telling you right now that at the time of the 2003 NBA Draft, every NBA GM would have told you that if they had the #2 pick after LeBron got drafted, they would have either chosen Carmelo or Darko. There were no other possibilities. So lamenting over Wade or Bosh is moot; criticizing Joe for not selecting Wade or Bosh not relevant. It was a mistake, a huge mistake. And Dumars should never get a pass for it. It could have been huge for the Pistons. But, it still would not have guaranteed a title, much less a dynasty.


BTW, on tangent, you think Chris Bosh is a future Hall of Famer?
The problem with the Darko pick is that it was based only on potential.

It's a huge gamble; the Dirk and Bargnana picks were only based on potential too, because there was som much to develop, but they turned out to be better players than Darko (especially Dirk)

It's a gamble; it has worked out for Nellie and Colie, but no for Joe.

Of course, Nellie and Colie have more epxerience than Joe as GM's

[jacobdrj]

Dumars traded Billups a year too late, but he had no choice. We didn't have Stucky available yet, and we didn't know if he would work out in the 1st place. Billups lost his drive here. He had no desire to go into the paint. He completely bought into the Mr. Bigshot hype, despite not hitting a really big shot in years. He kept collapsing in the playoffs. He had issues with some other players (C-Webb).

He needed a change of scenery. We needed to rebuild. There was even a slim chance in hell the Iverson thing was going to work. It may have worked, if AI wasn't AI... Now we have a myriad of guards who do what AI was supposed to. We have no true PG, but we didn't have one in 2003 either. Billups took what Carlisle and Brown taught him and became a floor general.

The Pistons were not going anywhere with Billups as the 'star'.

[JamStone]

I know. I understand the Darko pick, I really do because I remember his hype. But, I still don't get the Billups trade. He traded him because his is old, but he traded him to basically turn a 6th man into a starter and a star player. That is what I don't get. I could see if he traded him to clear room and he signed Bosh or Wade or something, but he got Ben Gordon. He traded an All Star who was getting old for a guy who might make a single All Star game his whole career if everything goes well

The Pistons weren't going to sign Wade or Bosh or LeBron, and Dumars knew that. Dumars also knew the Pistons were no longer title contenders in 2008-09. He should have known that they weren't after the 2005-06 season.

The Billups trade had many layers to it. It wasn't just trading Billups for Iverson or trading Billups for cap space. It was about breaking up the core group of players that had become stale and dispassionate. It was about looking long-term instead of trying to contend for one more season. Ben Gordon isn't Chauncey Billups and Charlie Villanueva isn't Rasheed Wallace. But in two years when Ben and Charlie in the middle of their contract, Billups is probably done and Rasheed is probably retired. Dumars was looking long-term. And, with any luck (for the Pistons), Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva out-perform their contracts like Billups and Ben Wallace and Antonio McDyess did before them. Gordon and Villanueva are both in their mid-20s. They have a chance to become better players, and that's probably what Dumars is hoping and banking on. Will it happen? Maybe not, probably not. But, moves had to be made. The Pistons can't sign the LeBrons and Wades and Amares. They don't have the juice or appeal to do so. But, changes still had to be made less the Pistons go through another teal era...

[jacobdrj]

The problem with the Darko pick is that it was based only on potential.

It's a huge gamble; the Dirk and Bargnana picks were only based on potential too, because there was som much to develop, but they turned out to be better players than Darko (especially Dirk)

It's a gamble; it has worked out for Nellie and Colie, but no for Joe.

Of course, Nellie and Colie have more epxerience than Joe as GM's

You are right that it was a gamble. I would have taken the trade with Memphis for Pau. But there is no guarantee the Pistons would have won the title.

[baseline bum]

Normally I can't fault a team drafting on potential, but 2003 was no normal draft. It's pretty rare you come into a draft and can pinpoint 4 players ready to play at an all-star level right away. I hated that pick right away when they made it.

[Thunder Dan]

Now you're talking about luck. I didn't argue that the Darko pick was good. It was a horrible pick, very likely as bad as any high lottery pick in the history of the NBA draft. Now, you're talking about changing the Pistons' "luck" when you're criticizing Joe Dumars as a GM.

I'm telling you right now that at the time of the 2003 NBA Draft, every NBA GM would have told you that if they had the #2 pick after LeBron got drafted, they would have either chosen Carmelo or Darko. There were no other possibilities. So lamenting over Wade or Bosh is moot; criticizing Joe for not selecting Wade or Bosh not relevant. It was a mistake, a huge mistake. And Dumars should never get a pass for it. It could have been huge for the Pistons. But, it still would not have guaranteed a title, much less a dynasty.


BTW, on tangent, you think Chris Bosh is a future Hall of Famer?
I know, but when people say "Great GM" aren't they taking about their ability to make the right picks? I realize that most every GM would have taken Darko, but a great GM would be able to see past that and pick a guy like Carmelo, Bosh and Wade. Like in football, the great GMs are guys who can draft all stars in the 6th round and don't miss with their first picks no matter who they are passing up. Like the Texans passing on the greatest running back of all time for Mario Williams, how did that work out? That is what great GMs can do and that is why I say Dumars is middle of the road but not great

[resistanze]

Only like 8 franchises have won a championship in the last 29 years or so. GMs in this league pass through a revolving door. Bottom line, GMs the build championship teams usually get free passes.

[JamStone]

Normally I can't fault a team drafting on potential, but 2003 was no normal draft. It's pretty rare you come into a draft and can pinpoint 4 players ready to play at an all-star level right away. I hated that pick right away when they made it.

LeBron and Carmelo were the only two sure things (and Darko as thought by so many GMs and scouts). Bosh was not viewed as ready to play at an all star level right away. He was a 6-10, 200 lbs hybrid PF/C who had a lot of questions about him as well. He also came out as a freshman out of GT. It's not like he had an impressive college resume. And Wade was considered a combo guard in the bad sense, too short to legitimately play the 2-guard but not a pure point guard. Still viewed as a great young prospect, but not seen as one who would be an immediate all star. I still remember reading how Pat Riley was pissed that Bosh went the pick ahead because that's who he really wanted and Riley wasn't all that excited about drafting Wade.

Looking back in retrospect often changes what really was going on at the time...

[Venti Quattro]

A GM that brings his team to the conference finals for 6 straight years is ... sorta great for me.

[JamStone]

I know, but when people say "Great GM" aren't they taking about their ability to make the right picks? I realize that most every GM would have taken Darko, but a great GM would be able to see past that and pick a guy like Carmelo, Bosh and Wade. Like in football, the great GMs are guys who can draft all stars in the 6th round and don't miss with their first picks no matter who they are passing up. Like the Texans passing on the greatest running back of all time for Mario Williams, how did that work out? That is what great GMs can do and that is why I say Dumars is middle of the road but not great

If that's your definition of a "great" GM, that's cool. I'm not the one who outlines the characteristics and traits that are necessary for every single person to consider a GM "great."

How about this: Over the last decade, can you name 5 NBA GMs who have clearly done a better job than Joe Dumars? That includes those who are no longer GMs now. Name 5 who clearly have done better jobs as NBA GMs. You have probably well over 50 GMs to choose from with firings and hirings (I'm guessing), perhaps more.

Maybe you can. But, I think you'd be hard pressed to do so. I think that's how I'd probably define a "great" GM, by comparing what that particular GM has done to what other GMs have done. Really off the top of my head, RC Buford might be the only one who "clearly" has done a better job. Edit: And of course Jerry West...

Look at a guy like Mitch Kupchak who was gifted Pau Gasol, otherwise he'd probably be out of a job right now. Or a guy like Danny Ainge, who was widely considered a bumbling idiot before Kevin McHale threw him a life line. Look around the league and identify the good and great GMs. Look at Kevin Pritchard who was being hailed as the next bright mind, but look at all the luck he has had in the draft and then look at the debacle he has from his off season moves.

"Great" GMs make mistakes. It's the nature of the job. In Dumars' case, a couple of his mistakes were monumental so they get more attention. But, if you go and look around the league, who has clearly done a better job over the last 10 seasons?

[Kriz-Maxima]

I know, but when people say "Great GM" aren't they taking about their ability to make the right picks? I realize that most every GM would have taken Darko, but a great GM would be able to see past that and pick a guy like Carmelo, Bosh and Wade. Like in football, the great GMs are guys who can draft all stars in the 6th round and don't miss with their first picks no matter who they are passing up. Like the Texans passing on the greatest running back of all time for Mario Williams, how did that work out? That is what great GMs can do and that is why I say Dumars is middle of the road but not great

The GM's job is not based solely on being able to pick the good players in the draft, if that was all there is to it Isiah wouldn't be out of a job, since he has a nice eye for drafting. A good GM has to build a quality team and drafting is only one of the means available to do that.

[resistanze]

Dumars has done more to earn his credit than Mandingo James has done to earn his.

:lmao

[Thunder Dan]

If that's your definition of a "great" GM, that's cool. I'm not the one who outlines the characteristics and traits that are necessary for every single person to consider a GM "great."

How about this: Over the last decade, can you name 5 NBA GMs who have clearly done a better job than Joe Dumars? That includes those who are no longer GMs now. Name 5 who clearly have done better jobs as NBA GMs. You have probably well over 50 GMs to choose from with firings and hirings (I'm guessing), perhaps more.

Maybe you can. But, I think you'd be hard pressed to do so. I think that's how I'd probably define a "great" GM, by comparing what that particular GM has done to what other GMs have done. Really off the top of my head, RC Buford might be the only one who "clearly" has done a better job. Edit: And of course Jerry West...

Look at a guy like Mitch Kupchak who was gifted Pau Gasol, otherwise he'd probably be out of a job right now. Or a guy like Danny Ainge, who was widely considered a bumbling idiot before Kevin McHale threw him a life line. Look around the league and identify the good and great GMs. Look at Kevin Pritchard who was being hailed as the next bright mind, but look at all the luck he has had in the draft and then look at the debacle he has from his off season moves.

"Great" GMs make mistakes. It's the nature of the job. In Dumars' case, a couple of his mistakes were monumental so they get more attention. But, if you go and look around the league, who has clearly done a better job over the last 10 seasons?

I think Ainge is doing alright. I mean you can say what you want about McHale, Ainge had the young talent to trade away to make it happen. Not only that, he drafted Rondo late in the first round in 2006. He picked up Leon Powe for a late 2007 2nd round pick. And, got Glen Davis as a throw in to the Ray Allen deal. And got Perkins late in the 2007 draft. I think Ainge is pretty solid


The guy in Portland is pretty good too. He hasn't won anything yet, but the team is full of talent even with Oden being hurt, and they are in a position to offer a max deal this summer.

Otis Smith for the Magic has done an excellent job.