Game Thoughts: L vs. Celtics, L vs. Nuggets, L @ Jazz

[timvp]

After a five-game winning streak, the Spurs were tested by playing the Celtics and Nuggets at home and the Jazz on the road. On paper, all three of those games were difficult. With the test complete and losses in each contest, it is safe to say that the Spurs failed the exam.

At 9-9, it's logical to be at least somewhat worried about this team. Their chemistry seems to be regressing and the concern about the health status of the biggest stars lingers. The Spurs still have plenty of time to get better but failing this test proved that the needed improvements are substantial.

Tim Duncan
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3173.jpg
34.3 minutes, 21.6 points, 10.6 rebounds, 2.0 assists, 2.33 blocks, 3.3 turnovers
59.1% from the field, 81.3% (13-for-16) at the line

As you can see by the numbers, Tim Duncan's production over the last three games wasn't the problem. An offseason spent losing weight has allowed Duncan to beat his man off the dribble consistently this season, which has allowed him to be a powerful force on the offensive end. He's also shooting the ball well from the perimeter, rebounding very well and blocking shots at his career average.

However, things aren't all good with Duncan. Mysteriously, he seems to be one of the main culprits when it comes to the team lacking chemistry. His two-man game with both Parker and Ginobili hasn't been smooth. Duncan has also tended to bog down the offensive flow by dribbling too much in the low post. Quicker and more decisive passes would help the team keep its rhythm, as would playing more at the high post when other players are rolling.

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Tony Parker
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3527.jpg
35 minutes, 22 points, 5.7 assists, 2.7 rebounds, 4.3 turnovers
57.5% from the field, 50% (1-for-2) on three-pointers, 76% (19-for-25) at the line

Tony Parker obviously isn't 100% healthy following a long summer of action and an early season ankle injury. He doesn't have his usual burst and seems to be laboring at times when running the court. That said, his stats as of late aren't far from his career-best numbers of last season.

The biggest problem for Parker right now are his turnovers. He has gone from the best turnover percentage of his career last season to the worst of his career this season. His 11 turnovers in the last two games definitely hurt San Antonio's chances of victory. Parker needs to make smarter decisions, take care of the ball and somehow find a way to bounce back into elite basketball shape.

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Manu Ginobili
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3380.jpg
22.7 minutes, 10 points, 2.3 assists, 2.3 rebounds, 1.7 steals, 2.3 turnovers
32.1% field, 41.7% (5-for-12) on three-pointers, 77.8% (7-for-9) at the line

To begin the campaign, I was satisfied with Manu Ginobili's play. In the last three games, I've grown extremely concerned. While his three-point shooting has been at a respectable level, the rest of his game has been difficult to watch most of the time.

Since returning from injury, Ginobili hasn't been able to finish at the rim -- it's that simple. He's just 6-for-25 on two-pointers in the last four games. On the season, he's shooting 42.9% on shots around the basket. Last season, that number was at a sizzling 65.5%. As well-rounded as Ginobili is as a player, he's no longer a star if he's lost athleticism to the point that he can't finish consistently at the rim. Let's hope his legs get stronger and this current situation is just a matter of being rusty.

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Richard Jefferson
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3523.jpg
35.3 minutes, 7.7 points, 3.7 rebounds, 2.0 assists, 1.3 steals, 2.0 turnovers
35.7% from the field, 30% (3-for-10) on three-pointers, 00.0% (0-for-5) at the line

Wow. In the past, a number of players have had a difficult transition into the Spurs system -- but this is brutal. It's officially time to question whether or not Richard Jefferson can fit. In the last three games, he just looks more and more uncomfortable. He can't blend into the flow offensively and his defense has been painfully average.

At this point, I think Jefferson's problems are mental. He's thinking way too much and that has slowed down his movements and castrated his aggression. For proof, look at how he's not getting to the line much at all. Even when has arrived at the charity stripe, he gets a case of the yips. While he's not helping out much at all right now, the hope is that he'll settle down and start to spread his wings once he figures out his niche. The silver lining, if you are searching for one, is that Derek Anderson needed until January to start playing well and the addition of Anderson was quite similar to the addition of Jefferson.

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Antonio McDyess
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3004.jpg
19.7 minutes, 1.7 points, 4.0 rebounds
14.3% (1-for-7) from the field, 75% (3-for-4) at the line

Where art thou, Antonio McDyess? After going for 15 points and 14 rebounds against the Rockets, McDyess has scored a total of five points in the last four games. During that time he's hit one field goal attempt and has pulled down only 14 rebounds. His defense has also been sketchy during this stretch.

Part of the problem for McDyess is his scoring is dependent on the offense flowing smoothly. When there's good spacing, good ball movement and plenty of penetration, that's when McDyess will get open shots from the perimeter. When the offense is a mess, McDyess simply doesn't have the means to help out on that end of the court.

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George Hill
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/4488.jpg
16.7 minutes, 7.3 points, 2.0 assists
29.4% from the field, 33.3% (3-for-9) on three-pointers, 81.8% (9-for-11) at the line

I continue to be underwhelmed by George Hill's play. Offensively, he's relying too much on his perimeter shot and isn't attacking the rim consistently enough. His playmaking has been slightly better as of late but still ranks near the bottom of the barrel when it comes to NBA point guards. Defensively, he's been decent but nothing to write home to Indianapolis about.

Another thing that is baffling to me about Hill's play is his lack of rebounding. One rebound in the last three games for a player who was one of the best rebounders at his position a year ago? I don't get it. The team needs defensive rebounds and Hill is nowhere to be found. The bottomline with Hill is that the Spurs need him to step into a larger role this season but he's not playing at a higher level than he was as a green rookie from IUPUI.

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Matt Bonner
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3748.jpg
25.7 minutes, 11 points, 8 rebounds, 1.7 assists
48% from the field, 31.3% (5-for-16) on three-pointers, 80% (4-for5) at the line

Against the Celtics and the Nuggets, Bonner was 2-for-11 from the field and his inability to stretch the defense really hurt the Spurs. The Celtics, especially, were giving Bonner open looks and he wasn't able to cash in. However, against the Jazz, Bonner made up for his previous shortcomings by almost single-handedly leading the Spurs to victory.

Bonner had perhaps the best game of his career when he had 28 points, eight rebounds and three assists versus Utah. He had a running flip shop that almost won the game. Even when he was struggling against the Celtics and Nuggets, his rebounding has remained at a very high level. If he can keep scoring and rebounding at his current rates, Bonner will be one of the best backup bigmen in the entire NBA.

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Keith Bogans
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3746.jpg
12.7 minutes, 1.3 points, 1.3 rebounds, 1 turnover
33.3% from the field

Keith Bogans continues to start but now I'm seriously beginning to question whether starting Bogans is the right move. Defensively he's good. Not great but good. Offensively, he's so horrible that he makes it difficult for the other four players on the court to score. Opponents leave him open and double off of him whenever they have a chance. And unlike a player like Bruce Bowen, Bogans doesn't have a spot on the floor where he can make other teams pay.

Despite playing with the starters for a majority of his minutes, Bogans had a plus/minus of -20 in the last three games. Considering that the Spurs lost those three games by a combined 17 points, that's a very telling stat. Personally, I've seen enough of Bogans starting. His 4-for-22 shooting in the last six games very much overshadows his defensive positives.

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DeJuan Blair
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/4642.jpg
16.3 minutes, 7.6 points, 5 rebounds, 1.3 blocks
64.7% from the field, 33.3% (1-for-3) from the line


DeJuan Blair was a beast against the Celtics, finishing with 18 points, 11 rebounds and two blocks in only 22 minutes. In fact, he was the player who almost pulled the rest of his teammates to a victory. He statistics weren't nearly as gaudy in his subsequent two games, although I've continued to see steady improvement.

The most exciting improvement I've seen from Blair is on the defensive end. For example, his defense against Carlos Boozer was very good. Blair's team defense is also rapidly improving. His lack of height will always be a hindrance but he's no longer a lame duck on the defensive end. Combine his improved defense with his scoring touch around the basket and his superior rebounding ability ... and the Spurs may be onto something here.

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Roger Mason, Jr.
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3628.jpg
13.6 minutes, 1 point, 1 assist, 1 rebound, 1 turnover
11.1% (1-for-9) from the field, 16.7% (1-for-6) on three-pointers

Before Roger Mason, Jr. hurt his hamstring, he was in a groove. Since his return, Mason's level of play from the beginning of the season has re-joined him -- and that's not a good thing. His shooting is ice cold once again and he's not helping out in other areas.

With the players around him struggling, Mason could hypothetically be earning himself a large role. But since he might be struggling the most, Mason continues to be at risk of being out of the rotation once the team makes its run into the homestretch.

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Michael Finley
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3023.jpg
11.5 minutes, 4.5 points, 1.5 rebounds, 1.5 assists
66.7% (4-for-6) from the field

Michael Finley has been an ironman since joining the Spurs. Unfortunately, he turned his ankle against the Nuggets and will be forced to miss a few games. After missing five contests in his first season with the Spurs, he missed only one game in the last three seasons. And the one game he missed was that game in Denver last year in which Pop sat practically everyone.

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[ajballer4]

Thanks timvp. Your articles are one of the few things I still like reading around here these days

[PDXSpursFan]

Thanks timvp. No thoughts on Pop coaching?

[urunobili]

Thank you timvp :tu

[ducks]

gee amazing
timvp blames the whole team not just tp

[Mr Bones]

:toast "Blair" and "beast" in the same sentence. Nice, dude.

[FvckMavs]

Thanks timvp.
After watching these three games, I think Spurs should retire Bruce's #12 jersey right away.

[BoricuaCJA]

Thanks timvp. Your articles are one of the few things I still like reading around here these days
I have to agree! Keep doing what your doing Timvp! Your points are pretty spot on.

[jcrod]

Its hard watching this team now, but I still believe. Every player is not playing well and they're still in every game with a chance to win. Hopefully it will click soon and everyone will start hitting their grove.

It's unbelievable how bad everyone is playing at the same time and missing their shots at a high rate. Nowhere to go but up.

[weebo]

This team is completely gutless, and I hate to say it but it starts with Pop. I have always been a strong supporter of Pop but I'm pretty sick of hearing his post game bullshit ("...they fought hard...gave themselves a chance to win..."...etc...). Doesn't this asshole know that moral victories are for losers!? Realization is starting to set in and Pop is being exposed for the fraud that he really is. Give any coach a top ten all time player and watch him become an all time great, but level the playing field and you see how a fraud is easily exposed. Fucking pathetic.

[ernest787]

i am not one to usually worry this early in the season, but it is currently to the point that i think all spurs fans have to begin to worry. Spurs have a history of slow starts, and while I have checked the stats I am pretty positive 18 games in the Spurs have not been .500 once in the Duncan era

That being said, I still have faith in the Spurs organization and Pop in general. It is nice to know the Spurs still have assets we can use if we need to make a move. It's also comforting to know that December should get a little easier the rest of the way and hopefully the Spurs can rack up some wins and maybe get some chemistry going.

IMO the big problem right now is the glaring need for another big man. Bonner has played great, Timmy is timmy, Blair has been great is spurts, but I still think they need a true C who can play 25 minutes next to Tim. Obviously the problem is that there are not many of those guys in the NBA and they come at a very high premium.

Regardless here is to hoping the Spurs get it going soon

[lurker23]

-I'm definitely up for throwing Mason back in the starting lineup in place of Bogans, mostly in an effort to get RMJ in a groove again. Other problems this would solve: relegating Bogans back to a more fitting "situational cooler" role, and adding a (theoretically) more reliable spot-up 3-point shooter to the starting lineup (which the Spurs don't have any more now that Bonner is on the bench).

-Pop was really trying hard to get Jefferson going last night, especially in the 3rd quarter (IIRC). He called several plays for him, mostly for him to post-up against a smaller defender. It was largely unsuccessful, but at least it shows Pop is cognizant about the need to actively get RJ involved.

-If Bonner and Blair can continue their progress on rebounding and defense respectively, then the Spurs should have no problem with their big man depth, particularly with the Theo Ratliff card still up their sleeve. Of all the players currently struggling (and there are a lot of them), Dice is one that I'm worried about the least. When push comes to shove, he's not going to forget how to rebound or knock down a 15-foot jumper. He may still be feeling his way around about the best way to get those things in this system, but in the end it's a lot easier to integrate a big man than it is to effectively integrate a guard or swingman.

[quentin_compson]

The Bogans matter is definitely a difficult one for Pop. While it was clear that his couple of very good games offensively early on weren't something you could expect every other night, I also didn't think that he would be as horrible as he's been lately.

But who should be the guy starting instead of Bogans? Mason Jr. and Finley haven't been exactly playing elite level basketball this season, either.

[UnWantedTheory]

Its hard watching this team now, but I still believe. Every player is not playing well and they're still in every game with a chance to win. Hopefully it will click soon and everyone will start hitting their grove.

It's unbelievable how bad everyone is playing at the same time and missing their shots at a high rate. Nowhere to go but up.

I love the positivity. I hope your right.

[quentin_compson]

-Pop was really trying hard to get Jefferson going last night, especially in the 3rd quarter (IIRC). He called several plays for him, mostly for him to post-up against a smaller defender. It was largely unsuccessful, but at least it shows Pop is cognizant about the need to actively get RJ involved.


Yeah, I remember that as well. Apart from Bonner's career-high and great game, this might have been the best thing about this loss against the Jazz.

[DPG21920]

gee amazing
timvp blames the whole team not just manu

Fixed.

Your act gets old Donald. Not everyone blames TP. Most say he plays a significant part in the struggles though. That is not to hard to understand because he is one of the most significant players. If you want him to be the superstar, he has to take the blame like the superstar.

Something that has been said a million times that you don't seem to get is that all of the other struggles were foreseen to a certain degree. But not TP's. No one could have expected the youngest of the big 3 to have such a set back. The Spurs were not planning on that being a problem, but it has been a huge problem. Not the only problem, but one that if corrected, would go the longest way to helping this team win more games.

[DPG21920]

I thought from the very beginning (even pre-season) that Mason was a lock to start. I was shocked to find him out of the starting line up to begin the season. Then when Bogans entered, it was the only thing that made sense.

Now I am back at Mason has to start. He just fits. You will maximize what you get from him and everyone (theoretically) if you start him.

[PDXSpursFan]

Bogans = sucks offensively, above-average defensively
Mason = sucks both offensively and defensively

Who should start again?

[DPG21920]

Bogans = sucks offensively, above-average defensively
Mason = sucks both offensively and defensively

Who should start again?

To simple of an analysis. Mason does not suck offensively. He showed that last year. He is not playing well as of late, but his offense does not suck. He can play passable defense when he focuses as well. He is not a good defender, but he can help out.

[duncan228]

Piece on Mason that got lost in the crowd today.

Garcia: Mason Jr. adjusting to new role as Spurs retool

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141511

[Spurs Brazil]

The silver lining, if you are searching for one, is that Derek Anderson needed until January to start playing well and the addition of Anderson was quite similar to the addition of Jefferson.

That's a good comparison but at that time DA was the 1st perimeter option to attack the basket, now TP and Manu will have the ball more than RJ. Let's hope Pop figures something to get him going

[Chieflion]

Good read, although it does makes me more pissed to see everyone except for Timmy and Bonner playing like shit.

[senorglory]

I don't think Bogans is intended to be a starter, but is in there as a stop gap measure filling in for injuries and unexpected mediocrity, so that eventually, he'll slide back to his natural role player position, coming off the bench, and be a good addition to the roster. He had a stretch of over-achievement, playing above his normal abilities, and the Spurs tried to ride it for too long, making him look poor as he regressed to normal. He'll look good again when he goes back to his natural role. Probably.

[senorglory]

I don't think Bogans is intended to be a starter, but is in there as a stop gap measure filling in for injuries and unexpected mediocrity, so that eventually, he'll slide back to his natural role player position, coming off the bench, and be a good addition to the roster. He had a stretch of over-achievement, playing above his normal abilities, and the Spurs tried to ride it for too long, making him look poor as he regressed to normal. He'll look good again when he goes back to his natural role. Probably.

o.k., I see now that I made the same basic point as lurker23, quentin_compson, and DPG21920.

[Fabbs]

Thanks timvp. No thoughts on Pop coaching?
Yes while being neither for nor against your further commentary on Poop in Game Thoughts, after 3 years of it (longer?) to just omit without explaination?

[lmbebo]

Haven't been able to see the games because of work. Its been frustrating.

Sucks to see the team struggling. From what I can tell is that the spurs were just awful in the 3rd and in the 4th, lack of team execution did the team in. IN the past, those were the games the spurs excelled at. Spurs played so well as a unit and out played opposing teams.

Not the case any more

[TJastal]

I don't think Bogans is intended to be a starter, but is in there as a stop gap measure filling in for injuries and unexpected mediocrity, so that eventually, he'll slide back to his natural role player position, coming off the bench, and be a good addition to the roster. He had a stretch of over-achievement, playing above his normal abilities, and the Spurs tried to ride it for too long, making him look poor as he regressed to normal. He'll look good again when he goes back to his natural role. Probably.

Bogans has limited value as a defensive player and has virtually no value on offense, most of the teams he's been apart of obviously figured that out and shipped him out accordingly.

I still have no idea what was going through Popovich's head when he signed this guy when they already had a guy with a ton more upside (Hairston)

[Chieflion]

Haven't been able to see the games because of work. Its been frustrating.

Sucks to see the team struggling. From what I can tell is that the spurs were just awful in the 3rd and in the 4th, lack of team execution did the team in. IN the past, those were the games the spurs excelled at. Spurs played so well as a unit and out played opposing teams.

Not the case any more
The team showed resilence in the 4th in the Utah game, without it, I would have switched the game off. The execution in the 3rd quarter sucks though.

[ezau]

Richard Jefferson
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3523.jpg
35.3 minutes, 7.7 points, 3.7 rebounds, 2.0 assists, 1.3 steals, 2.0 turnovers
35.7% from the field, 30% (3-for-10) on three-pointers, 00.0% (0-for-5) at the line



Talk about being mediocre. Look at this guy's stats. Jesus H. Christ

[Horse]

I been saying all along it's just gonna take time and we probably won't be a 1 or 2 seed. But if they get it right it won't matter. When this team was basically the same year in and year out they still always started slow. Now we have more new pieces to fit in than ever and more good players not just role players. So it will take a bit. But I believe we'll get there. A couple bounces and we're on an 8-game winning streak instead of losing 3. We'll have to sacrifice some games but we'll get there. That being said running a play for bonner with the game on the line is insane.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Well, you pretty much capture what I have seen in those descriptions, LJ, and it ain't pretty. We basically have the majority of our best 11 players playing like garbage right now.

For mine, the major problem is on the wing - Bogans is struggling, RJ is lost and Manu has sadly lost a step. If I were the team I'd be exploring trade option for Manu/RJ, and if a good one comes along for a young, athletic wing who can create and knock dow the 3 (yeah, I know, they don't grow on trees), I'd pull the trigger. Pity we missed out on Jax, and more and more it looks like we should have traded for Vince last season...

I trust that TP and George will find their way out of their struggles - they are too good not to - and that Dice and the other role players will become relevant again when the machine starts to move with some fluidity, but right now everyone is affected by the malaise affecting 3 of the big 4.

And just how much do we miss Bruce? A fuckload is how much. The system simply doesn't stand up without an elite perimeter defender. It might also be time to package something to NO for James Posey, if we have anything they want. As a smart defender and clutch 3pt shooter, he would make a huge difference here.

However, I also bet that none of these things happen. Pop is not one to upset the apple cart early in the season. He will probably stay the course, unfortunately, even though it's obvious to everyone that this team is not a contender right now. Sad, but true.

[barbacoataco]

Good job as always timvp. I have been able to watch most of the games this year and I'm not sure it is time to give up. As an optimist:
1. TP is not himself. When he gets his explosive move to the basket back that will fix a lot of offensive problems.
2. Ginobili still could return to a closer version of himself. If he can stay healthy he should be better by February.
3. McDyess is a proven quantity and will play like himself as the season goes on.
4. bonner looks like one of the better backup bigs in the NBA
5. Bogans can impersonate Bowen for limited stretches
6. Jefferson has been around this league and should start playing closer to his career averages
7. Perhaps most important- DUNCAN looks like he could potentially have a great season and be an offensive force in the playoffs

However, right now the Spurs are an average team.

[callo1]

Not worried

[DPG21920]

I am definitely worried, but that does not mean all is lost. Spurs had a ton of work coming into the season, and even more now given the circumstances.

[ploto]

Maybe Jefferson just isn't very bright.

[024]

while i'm concerned about the entire team, the only person i'm really worried about now is ginobili. he seems to have lost his explosiveness. other than his 3 pointers, ever other part of his game has suffered. it's sad but i can name many examples where players lose their effectiveness after major injuries.

i wonder, if ginobili does not improve, it's near the deadline, and the spurs are 7-8th seed will popovich really trade him?

[HarlemHeat37]

I hope the team explores trading a package of Manu/Mason/Finley, but I don't know if Pop/RC would actually trade Manu..it seems like they'll ride with him through anything..the opposite side of this argument is that Pop clearly gave up on Bowen, so there's a chance..

When he's mentally and physically healthy, he's more valuable to us than anything a trade can bring..but will he ever be the same Manu?..right now he's a below average player..keeping him means we're taking the risk that he'll be healthy AND that he'll be the same guy when it matters..

[Russ]

In the past, successful Spurs teams have had a fair number of "new pieces" fit in fairly quickly. They've been on a losing steak in that regard since, oh, June '07.

Blair may break the streak big time. Used to be, Spurs fans acknowledged Blair's strengths but also recited his ordained and unalterable limitations, e.g., too small to defend bigs, not quick enough to defend virtually anyone.

But if the "Spur way" has rolled off RJ's back like water off a duck, Blair has been like a sponge. He blocks shots now. He gyrates under the basket to score like an overweight Ginobili. Each game, he shows something new and the sky seems to be the limit.

If the Spurs were trying to build a team to beat the Lakers, Blair may be the key. I frankly do not think that there are any physical or other limits to Blair's potential that will keep him from guarding (or scoring against) any bigs in the league, Lakers' included.

The other "new" pieces, however, still don't seem to be fitting in as well. Mason seems to have regressed. Hill could provide much needed athleticism but he's hit and miss. Bonner is fool's gold IMO, looking great against bad teams or in garbage time or contributing more than anyone else when the team loses. While all of those things create nice stats, none of them can help a team win big games.

And Pop, like anyone in a position of power for a long time, seems to be tending more and more toward his weaknesses, i.e., undervaluing athleticism, overvaluing control (even if it means uninspired play), trying to build a team that is more suited for the league in the "hack 'em on the perimeter" era (or the "surround Duncan with stationary three point shooters" era).

I think the Spurs have the players to compete for the whole thing, but they definitely have to take the plunge and go with a more athletic lineup. RJ should help quite a bit with that. Maybe Hill, too. And Blair.

Get 'em to play Spurs defense, Pop. But give 'em their head a little bit more along the way -- let 'em show what they can do. (And please turn Bonner into a specialist, not a mainstay.)

Then pray like heck that the Big 3 can still use their legs to make plays -- not just their heads.

[SenorSpur]

Long awaited. Much appreciated.

[ducks]

while i'm concerned about the entire team, the only person i'm really worried about now is ginobili. he seems to have lost his explosiveness. other than his 3 pointers, ever other part of his game has suffered. it's sad but i can name many examples where players lose their effectiveness after major injuries.

i wonder, if ginobili does not improve, it's near the deadline, and the spurs are 7-8th seed will popovich really trade him?

they wanted to let david robinson WALK
HELLO

[senorglory]

Bogans has limited value as a defensive player and has virtually no value on offense, most of the teams he's been apart of obviously figured that out and shipped him out accordingly.

I still have no idea what was going through Popovich's head when he signed this guy when they already had a guy with a ton more upside (Hairston)

I'm not arguing that it's deserved or undeserved, but before coming to the Spurs, Bogan's reputation has been that he's dependable as a defensive specialist, takes care of the ball, and avoids turnovers/mistakes.

1) http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/Ex-Bucks_stop_here_in_Spurs_victory_over_Mavs.html:
Bogans clamped down, alternately, on Josh Howard, Jason Terry, Jason Kidd and J.J. Barea — none of whom shot better than 50 percent from the field.

“That's what Keith Bogans does,” Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said.

2) http://basketballtraderumors.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=588:
Bogans, a solid defensive player, is being looked at as an heir apparent to Bruce Bowen, who retired recently after being San Antonio's perimeter defensive stopper throughout much of the decade. The Spurs had been grooming Ime Udoka for that role, but they are electing not to bring him back as a free agent after he played two seasons with the team.

3) http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Keith-Bogans-1715/:Offense: Almost exclusively a 3-point shooter at this point in his career, but is pretty effective in this role. Not very effective off the dribble. An average ball-handler at best. Doesn’t make many mistakes with the ball, nor will he be very aggressive with his dribble drive. Makes smart passes, but isn’t a playmaker. Likes to go left, and is very effective when he does. Doesn’t get many looks at the rim, and rarely gets to the free throw line. Isn’t asked to function as much more than a spot up player, but is solid all around.

Defense: A very solid defender who uses his strength to his advantage. Does a good job getting into position to deny dribble penetration. Won’t get pushed around on the block or by a ball handler trying to get a step. Has a hard time defending taller swingmen. Doesn’t take many risks as a half court defender. Shows a willingness to get on the floor when he can grab a loose ball. Always turns with the shot and looks to box out and secure the rebound. Not a playmaker, but the type of solid defender that coaches love to bring off the bench.

[SequSpur]

http://brotherpeacemaker.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/head_up_your_ass.jpg

Greg Popovich

Loser. Look at the picture. Spurs Coach. Matt Bonner. Keith Bogans. 70+ million.

You were fooled.

[SenorSpur]

In the past, successful Spurs teams have had a fair number of "new pieces" fit in fairly quickly. They've been on a losing steak in that regard since, oh, June '07.
Seeing the Spurs get routinely outhustled, outquicked and outrebounded by younger, quicker teams is a trend that started with the '08 season.

Blair may break the streak big time. Used to be, Spurs fans acknowledged Blair's strengths but also recited his ordained and unalterable limitations, e.g., too small to defend bigs, not quick enough to defend virtually anyone.

If the Spurs were trying to build a team to beat the Lakers, Blair may be the key. I frankly do not think that there are any physical or other limits to Blair's potential that will keep him from guarding (or scoring against) any bigs in the league, Lakers' included. We wont know if Pop plays his usual "rookie" head games with the kid. While I like the additions of Hill and Blair, I think the Spurs STILL need more of what they very little of now - length and athleticism. If Rudy Gay becomes available next summer, as most think he will be (he and the Grizz were unable to come to terms over this past summer), the Spurs had better be first in line.

And Pop, like anyone in a position of power for a long time, seems to be tending more and more toward his weaknesses, i.e., undervaluing athleticism, overvaluing control (even if it means uninspired play), trying to build a team that is more suited for the league in the "hack 'em on the perimeter" era (or the "surround Duncan with stationary three point shooters" era).
Explosive comments, yet sadly true. Pop hasn't altered his philosophy much. I've often wondered why the Spurs are perennially the least-athletic team, and the oldest team, in the NBA? It does appear that Pop always places more value on age, rather than athleticism. Even after watching his roster decline and his teams continuously failing to keep up with up-and-coming new playoff-contending teams. And don't forget, everyone is still chasing the Fakers and they are a helluva lot younger than the Spurs. Pop is an old-school coach that believe in his system. And why not? He's got four titles to back it up. However, I do agree that he needs to keep up with the changes in league trends, other than adopting small-ball.


I think the Spurs have the players to compete for the whole thing, but they definitely have to take the plunge and go with a more athletic lineup. RJ should help quite a bit with that. Maybe Hill, too. And Blair.
I don't know if the Spurs have all the pieces to compete for the whole thing, but it would be nice to see all the pieces and various combinations be fully utlized - that includes playing the youngsters. There are certainly times where Pop can and should try to match the athleticism of opponents as best he can.

[mountainballer]

Wow. In the past, a number of players have had a difficult transition into the Spurs system -- but this is brutal. It's officially time to question whether or not Richard Jefferson can fit. In the last three games, he just looks more and more uncomfortable. He can't blend into the flow offensively and his defense has been painfully average.


agree. and IMO that's the key question. all other questions can be solved, players roles can be adjusted, minor moves could also help there.
but the RJ question is a really big one. we all thought he is the right player for the Spurs needs, but it wouldn't be the first time such a move didn't turn out as helpful as it seemed in the beginning. I also don't think the "good fans are patient" rule, or the "players need 2 seasons to adjust" rule is valid in RJ's case. yes, it's early and yes, things might turn better with him, but the general problems he has with the Spurs style and system are obvious.
I also don't want to blame or bash him. things like that happen.
question is the exit strategy.
a trade? why not. it might be easier to put a player on the market, as long most GMs still think he just didn't fit with the Spurs (but fits with team xy)
he has a huge contract, which won't be easy to move. on the other hand, such numbers also help to make things happen. interesting will be teams, that already focus on 2011. (while Spurs push their focus to 2012, when Tim retires?)
Kings? would they do a Nocioni, K.Thomas, Rodriguez package for RJ, Mason/Finley, Ian?
would we do it?

[NZ Spurs]

How is Jefferson going to get boards if he is focusing on getting out on transition and getting back on D? He is still averaging 4+ a game.

His D has actually been pretty good, he uses his length well to contest shots on the perimeter and especially at the rim. His Transition D needs work though.

He is often the bail out option on offense which isn't going to do his confidence much good. He is also often making that Hockey assist pass before the final pass. Pop tried an iso on the block against Utah, it looked promising, if the other players can learn to play off of that.

Manu regains some form and TP gets healthy then this team is rolling.

[NZ Spurs]

If I were the team I'd be exploring trade option for Manu/RJ


Ohh yeah brilliant. The new guys (who are relatively savvy veterans) had a preseason and 18 games and are still struggling to find chemistry and pick up the play book.

Lets trade for a player who will be even further behind the eight ball. Brilliant idea.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Ohh yeah brilliant. The new guys (who are relatively savvy veterans) had a preseason and 18 games and are still struggling to find chemistry and pick up the play book.

Lets trade for a player who will be even further behind the eight ball. Brilliant idea.

Don't cherry pick my posts and make it look like I didn't have some reasons for saying that. Quote the whole thing next time.

RJ does not fit. He needs the ball to make an impact, and he's not getting it. I'd try making him the 6th man first, but at the same time I'd be seeing if anyone wants him. Moving him for another player will make very little difference because it's not like he's thriving in the system.

As for Manu, I'd give him until January to show that he can take a man off the dribble. If he can't have some really decent games with the weak schedule that's a huge warning sign. I'd also be putting out feelers to see what people would give for him. He'd be a huge loss, but if he has lost a step we aren't going anywhere with him this year or any future year, so you have to roll the dice. I love Manu, and I hate to say that, but with effectively 2 1/2 seasons of Tim's career left, there's no time to waste.

Blackjack suggest Manu for Salmons and Thomas in another thread - it works monetarily, the Bulls would love the 10.7mil expiring, and those are talented players (although Thomas is a headcase and has a low ball IQ). It's high risk high reward, but sometimes you have to gamble.

Also, there is precedent of players coming into the Spurs mid-season and greatly helping the team - Nazr as the example off the top of my head.

[Ice009]

Yeah I am with Ruff with trying RJ off the bench. If not benching RJ I think Manu needs to start.

Bogans has been worse that I thought. I thought he could provide a bit more offense that Bruce, but he's getting worse and worse on that end. You know I am beside myself that he is starting now and Bruce was let go because of his limited offense. Bruce not only could score more, but he was still easily the better defender. Don't get me wrong to I really do like the effort Bogans is showing on the defensive end. I always like players that bust their ass on defense.

I love Bruce Bowen. One of the best Spurs players of all time. I thought with the RJ trade he was only included because he would be bought out and come back to the Spurs.

[temujin]

Very good wrap-up with two additions.

1) Parker has regressed substantially on defense, to the point where he is mostly watching and resting for the offense to resume. That's unacceptable.

2) That Jefferson is a case of mental softness is exemplified by the last 3 minutes of the Portland game: he didn't get a couple of questionable calls (on important plays), got upset and went off with a monster dunk on Aldridge. Too bad it was irrelevant by then. So maybe Popovich should bench the guy for a couple of games, just to get him seriously upset.

[ManuTastic]

-I'm definitely up for throwing Mason back in the starting lineup in place of Bogans, mostly in an effort to get RMJ in a groove again. Other problems this would solve: relegating Bogans back to a more fitting "situational cooler" role, and adding a (theoretically) more reliable spot-up 3-point shooter to the starting lineup (which the Spurs don't have any more now that Bonner is on the bench).

I'm all for this. Actually, I'm all for anyone other than Bogans starting. Try RMJ, try Manu... I don't care. Enough is enough.

[Whisky Dog]

Who wants a busted Manu and an RJ who can't score?

I was fooled. I was wrong. RJ is a Spurs bust, Manu is finished, McDyess is below average, and Parker deserted us for that pansy ass national team that won't win shit.

I was duped. Duped into believing this was a team who would compete, who would contend. Duped into forking out for league pass on a lame duck team.

[GrandeDavid]

TimVP, the only reason I visit this site is to read your postgame critiques. Keep them up, please!

[SpurNation]

Frustration level orange. I don't know about the rest but I was expecting more than what's happened thus far. Especially regarding Jefferson. And it's not so much Jefferson has been struggling more so than the salary he is eating up from this franchise compared to what he been producing. If he were only making 8 to 10 mil. I would be more tolerant.

But Jefferson isn't the only problem at this time. It's the team as a whole. The off season saw promise of a new day. A hope that Tim and Tony wouldn't have to be relied upon so heavily for chances of this team to win. And we as fans were excited of that promise in what Jefferson could bring and a healthy Manu and what appeared to be an upgrade in our post.

Unfortunately...Tony's either injured or not happy or both...Manu has proven he is only as good now as the next injury and mind set allows him to be...Jefferson does not fit the system and would probably only be close to being worth his salary if the system changed. (Ain't goin' to happen)...Mason and McDyess are as consistent as the weather in south Texas...Finley is another year older than retirement age...Hill and Bogans are transcending into the lost and found (and then lost again)...and the rest of the team don't see enough minutes to make a clock tick.

On top of that...we have Bonner...who by all accounts was one of the least consistently productive players from last year being one of the players this team needs to count on the most so far.

It's been ugly the past 3 games because the team just isn't where it needs to be to beat elite teams in the league.

The bright side at this moment...the team has nowhere else to go but up. Beating teams they are suppose to beat isn't going to get me excited more so than just stop the pain for a while.

I'm not sure if trades are neccessary...but I did like Ruff's suggestions if one is ever to be made.

Otherwise...I'll sit back...chear them on...and hope some of these issues will resolve themselves in the near future against some of the elite teams when they play them again.

PS...I never mentioned Duncan. Really no need. He's proven himself more than "sevicable" and the only reason this team did not get blown away in the last 3 games. For those that want to use rust and/or lack of conditioning as an excuse ...he blows that theory out of the water.

[benefactor]

Who wants a busted Manu and an RJ who can't score?

I was fooled. I was wrong. RJ is a Spurs bust, Manu is finished, McDyess is below average, and Parker deserted us for that pansy ass national team that won't win shit.

I was duped. Duped into believing this was a team who would compete, who would contend. Duped into forking out for league pass on a lame duck team.
Then GTFO fair weather fan. I'll pay for league pass every year, no matter what the expectations are.

[timvp]

-Pop was really trying hard to get Jefferson going last night, especially in the 3rd quarter (IIRC). He called several plays for him, mostly for him to post-up against a smaller defender. It was largely unsuccessful, but at least it shows Pop is cognizant about the need to actively get RJ involved.Good point. In the last few games, the first set play in each half is for RJ. That's another reason why I don't understand why a lot of Spurs fans are looking around for others to blame when the truth is that it's on RJ. He has to figure out how he can fit.


Of all the players currently struggling (and there are a lot of them), Dice is one that I'm worried about the least. When push comes to shove, he's not going to forget how to rebound or knock down a 15-foot jumper. He may still be feeling his way around about the best way to get those things in this system, but in the end it's a lot easier to integrate a big man than it is to effectively integrate a guard or swingman.Agreed. As long as his body holds up and he keeps up the intensity, he'll be a good fit once everyone else figures out what they're doing on the offensive end.

[timvp]

while i'm concerned about the entire team, the only person i'm really worried about now is ginobili. he seems to have lost his explosiveness. other than his 3 pointers, ever other part of his game has suffered. it's sad but i can name many examples where players lose their effectiveness after major injuries.

i wonder, if ginobili does not improve, it's near the deadline, and the spurs are 7-8th seed will popovich really trade him?

After Manu's latest injury, Pop seemed pretty mad about the situation. Until those comments, I never thought Pop would OK a Manu trade. Now I think he might -- but only if the Spurs feel his body just won't allow him to be an asset in the playoffs.

[timvp]

How is Jefferson going to get boards if he is focusing on getting out on transition and getting back on D? He is still averaging 4+ a game.

First of all, his best rebounding years of his career were when he was running with Kidd and the Nets. He was able to multitask those seasons.

Secondly, he's not even running out on the break that often. It's not like he's been running the floor hard and the Spurs are just missing him. He's not running much or rebounding at the moment.

And third, his season average is deceptive (and still it isn't that good). In the last seven games, he's averaging less than three boards a game. For a 6-foot-8 player with good athleticism who is getting a lot of playing time ... that is unacceptable, to put it nicely.

[polandprzem]

Few things

1. There is huge miscomunication right now on this team esp. on the ofensive end. many players seems to be lost and do not know what to do. It's kinda strange considering all the preperation that NBA has before season and esp. when spurs had some days off between games to work on that.

2. We do not have a force inside on ofense. Tim right now plays midrange game faceing the basket. And even when he plays backing down he still is toofar from the basket, all the other team defenders got easier and ball movement is not a) as easy b) as effective as it should have.

3. Tim is not getting as much attention as he used to. Double teams are not happening too much. And it was always (my opinion) tyhe most efective way to beat the spurs. single coverage Tim and not let the ofense flow. It was times when Tim on a single coverage destryoed other teams but it's not an issue right now.

4. Utah game shown the ofensive weakness too me that is a tactic mistake. All the players are on their spot with beautifull spread (get me right here :) ) And well it is not giving us any adventage simply because we have no space to operate. we need to suck the D. either it's on the low block or the midrange (side or top key) p&rolls or p&pops. Just do something to create that free space.

[Fabbs]

Good point. In the last few games, the first set play in each half is for RJ. That's another reason why I don't understand why a lot of Spurs fans are looking around for others to blame when the truth is that it's on RJ. He has to figure out how he can fit.
Who recruited him, dumped Bowen for him, gave him 70 million over X years?
Training camp they hadn't gone over all this crap?

Yeah yeah yeah roster acquisition, its a team effort. B.S., Pop has almost all say in personell matters and it was he who talked Holt and RC Dufas into it.

[ducks]

I trade manu and mason for jr smith

[Whisky Dog]

Then GTFO fair weather fan. I'll pay for league pass every year, no matter what the expectations are.

Every businessman's/scam artists dream. The consumer who blindly throws his money down the drain with no expectations on a return benefit. Thanks for fueling the system.

[DJB]

Trade RJ for Marcus Camby and all of our problems will be fixed. We need a true center.

[benefactor]

Who recruited him, dumped Bowen for him, gave him 70 million over X years?
Training camp they hadn't gone over all this crap?

Yeah yeah yeah roster acquisition, its a team effort. B.S., Pop has almost all say in personell matters and it was he who talked Holt and RC Dufas into it.

I trade manu and mason for jr smith
nfHOQAT0-Mk

[benefactor]

Every businessman's/scam artists dream. The consumer who blindly throws his money down the drain with no expectations on a return benefit. Thanks for fueling the system.
So that is all this is to you? A business that you buy into where you just bail if you don't see a return? People like you have no business rooting for sports teams. Again...just piss off. No one wants fans like you around.

[DesignatedT]

The minutes are still way to spread out IMO. different players getting different minutes different times of the games. pop needs to shorten the rotations. nobody can get into a groove at this pace...

seriously name another starter (bogans)... who averges 13 minutes a game... fucking ridiculous.

[Fabbs]

Every businessman's/scam artists dream. The consumer who blindly throws his money down the drain with no expectations on a return benefit. Thanks for fueling the system.
+1 :lol

Proud of the fact he's a "lower the expectation level" sheep.

[Robinson#1]

Great timvp, great article. I like the break down of every player

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

My hope is that Blair will continue to show improvement on the defensive end and that as the season wears on that his minutes will increase. He and Duncan in the paint will be a pretty imposing tandem. If Blair could play defense, having him play starters minutes wouldn't be a bad thing with McDyess as the backup. A second unit of McDyess/Bonner would be as good as any 2nd unit in the league. I don't care if Blair starts, but I foresee him playing a much bigger role if the team is going to win in May.

Manu needs to get healthy. He needs to work on his explosiveness. That's what appears to be lacking at this point...leg strength. The mental part of his game will be there if he can get his physical tools in order.

RJ...what can I say? I'm convinced he's a much better player than what he's shown so far. He may be the key to the whole season. If he could play with confidence and aggression, he could fill in a lot of the void that they currently are dealing with. He's supposed to be the 4th part of the big 4. Right now this team is the Big 1, Timmy, about .75 Tony, about .50 of Manu, and about .10 of RJ. RJ needs to step up on the offense and the defense. He needs to make guys like Bogans obsolete. If I'm Pop I may consider having him be part of the 2nd unit just to give him more touches and perhaps let him build his confidence back up. Start Manu and give him enough minutes so he can do the same thing.

At the moment this team would get brushed aside by the likes of LA if we can't get those 4 guys going. Let's hope people step up before Timmy wears out again this year. Wearing Tim out in December losses is not what I was picturing back in the summer.

Excellent summary Timvp! :tu

[Whisky Dog]

So that is all this is to you? A business that you buy into where you just bail if you don't see a return? People like you have no business rooting for sports teams. Again...just piss off. No one wants fans like you around.

aww how cute this guy gets all emotional, you'd think it's Pop's son or something. Sorry, I'm a fan and have been a fan for over 20 years and will always root for the Spurs no matter what, but I don't blindly throw cash at failing attempts at entertainment. Watching them get beaten down night after night just isn't entertaining.

[benefactor]

aww how cute this guy gets all emotional, you'd think it's Pop's son or something. Sorry, I'm a fan and have been a fan for over 20 years and will always root for the Spurs no matter what, but I don't blindly throw cash at failing attempts at entertainment. Watching them get beaten down night after night just isn't entertaining.
If you are not emotional about your team then why do you root for them? Is is just a demographic responsibility? If it's all about entertainment for you then go be a Suns fan.

I tend to think...and I hope that other fans would also...that being a fan of a team actually required some sort of commitment. You say you've been a fan for 20 years but at the same time say that you'd rather change the channel on them if they are not giving you exactly what you want. The FO goes deep in to tax territory to try to get at least one more trophy and as soon as things start looking like they might not work out you say you have been duped? That's the biggest crock of bullshit I have ever heard.

If you don't really care about this team then just say so...but don't go around telling people that you are a fan. I...and I'm sure many others...do not want to be associated with people who think like you do.

[SuperManu!!!]

Start Manu.....if he gets the confidence back, you'll see it will spread all over the court. You can't deny that

[senorglory]

After Manu's latest injury, Pop seemed pretty mad about the situation. Until those comments, I never thought Pop would OK a Manu trade. Now I think he might -- but only if the Spurs feel his body just won't allow him to be an asset in the playoffs.

Spurs did cold bloodedly 86 Del Negro and Bob Hill. They'll pull the trigger.

[angelbelow]

Just rewatched Blair vs Boston.. very encouraging the way they played and the confidence and energy that he exhibited. I haven't been able to watch the past 3 games but I noticed that he hasn't been playing much. That's okay because hes still a rookie and the match up may have not been there but I hope he continues to improve and keep his confidence high.

[tp2021]

aww how cute this guy gets all emotional

Speaking of emo...


Who wants a busted Manu and an RJ who can't score?

I was fooled. I was wrong. RJ is a Spurs bust, Manu is finished, McDyess is below average, and Parker deserted us for that pansy ass national team that won't win shit.

I was duped. Duped into believing this was a team who would compete, who would contend. Duped into forking out for league pass on a lame duck team.


Then stop watching the games and don't post again.

When I read your post, I pictured this:

http://lineout.thestranger.com/files/2007/11/crybaby.jpg

[senorglory]

I don't think Bogans is intended to be a starter, but is in there as a stop gap measure filling in for injuries and unexpected mediocrity, so that eventually, he'll slide back to his natural role player position, coming off the bench, and be a good addition to the roster. He had a stretch of over-achievement, playing above his normal abilities, and the Spurs tried to ride it for too long, making him look poor as he regressed to normal. He'll look good again when he goes back to his natural role. Probably.

And maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about:

"Save for one night in Dallas, when Popovich opted to start Ginobili instead, Bogans has been a fixture in the first five ever since. In games in which Bogans has started and logged at least 20 minutes, opposing guards are shooting 39.8 percent." Spurs' Bogans Relishing His Role (http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/Spurs_Bogans_relishing_his_role.html), mysa.com 12/23/09

[DAF86]

Oh, NOES!!! timvp put Tony above Manu in the game thoughts :depressed