Jefferson's Ineffectiveness Explained

[Parker2112]

After last night's game, the causes of Jefferson's ineffectiveness became clear.

First, Jefferson is lethal on the break. That is too bad, because TP generally doesn't handle the break well unless he is schooling the opposing team's transition D as a one-man fast break. But last night, TP used an early transition opportunity to get RJ going, and it seemed to do wonders for RJ.

Second, RJ needs a PG who is looking to create. Well, last night TP did this through most of the first quarter, and it brought not only RJ into the game but also Dice and Bogans. This sacrifice (TP could have easily ran through the defense for a bucket) gave us more weapons down the stretch and will continue to do so for the season's remainder.

Third, did anyone else notice RJ scoring at will early on WHEN TD WAS OUT OF THE WAY, ON THE TOP OF THE KEY, LETTING RJ CREATE? I put this on Pop, and I think he's beginning to see that RJ needs 1) the ball, and 2) space to work. I think Pop is coming around to this, and hopefully we see offensive sets utilized that give RJ the room to work. Pop does the same thing for TD with Bonner, lets let RJ have some space as well.

Fourth, after the game RJ mentioned that Pop has focused for the most part on defense. For the fly-by-night fans who are calling RJ a failure less than 20 games in, understand that Pop doesn't usually care to focus on offense...defense is Spurs basketball, and wins titles. For those of you who joined the bandwagon when RJ came aboard, hoping to see explosive Phoenix Suns brand basketball, please take the next available train to lakaluva's house...we don't need you here. (Funny. I remember seeing open invitations on this board to join the Spurs bandwagon after RJ arrived...guess we picked up quite a lot of trash that way.)

Back to RJ, while the "new guy fitting into the system" is usually construed as being entirely on the new guy, in RJ's case it becomes obvious that RJ's success is going to require at least some sacrifice for TD and TP. But it will definitely benefit this team. Look... we already know TP can dismantle an entire defense single-handedly, time and time again. We already know that TD is unstoppable in the post once he's rolling. But neither approach will get us to the Finals. We will be far more successful if we get RJ and others integrated into this offense asap.

:flag:

[Dex]

As of yet, Jefferson hasn't shown a real knack for breaking down the defense himself. His lateral speed just doesn't seem to be there; he always finds himself driving into traffic when he goes iso.

Last night it looked like both Parker and Duncan were looking to feed Jefferson the ball and get him good looks. Jefferson responded by starting out 4/4 with two dunks and a couple easy pullups. Once he is rolling like that, those step back jumpers and three-balls suddenly become a lot more dangerous.

Maybe it was just Kings D, but it looked like either Pop, or the players, are starting to realize that Jefferson is going to need opportunities if he is going to be expected to produce.

[elbamba]

Last night was the first night I have seen Tony look to create from the first play of the game to the last. This is when Tony is at his best. RJ needs to be talking 12-15 shots a game. He is that good of a scorer and it takes the load off of Tim's knees and removes all the presure from Manu and Tony. Plus he is a better scorer than Manu at this stage in his career.

However, the lineup I never want to see again is RJ, Bonner, Blair, Bogans and Hill. That was the lineup that allowed the come back. But really the problem with this lineup is Bonner and Blair playing together. Big mistake as Blair is not a true big man, he plays better with Duncan or Dice.

[Sisk]

hear hear!

[Parker2112]

As of yet, Jefferson hasn't shown a real knack for breaking down the defense himself. His lateral speed just doesn't seem to be there; he always finds himself driving into traffic when he goes iso.



Hence, the numerous dunks...

Sorry but I've seen him blow by guys on the baseline more than a few times this season.

[Parker2112]

Last night it looked like both Parker and Duncan were looking to feed Jefferson the ball and get him good looks. Jefferson responded by starting out 4/4 with two dunks and a couple easy pullups. Once he is rolling like that, those step back jumpers and three-balls suddenly become a lot more dangerous.



This, x1000.

[Dex]

Hence, the numerous dunks...

Sorry but I've seen him blow by guys on the baseline more than a few times this season.

Idunno, I'd venture to guess that most of those dunks came out of transition or cuts to the paint.

I'm not saying he's never able to get around people; he's a slasher. That's what slashers do.

To me though, he seems to either get cut off, pick up an offensive foul, or drive the ball into traffic more often than he ends up scoring on these attempts. At least earlier they were calling fouls when he got into the paint, but even that has trickled down (compounded by his own missed free throws).

[Flux451]

I agree.

Game plan was to focus on Jefferson(finally?). Simply put, he needs to be fed the ball in motion and TD needs to play the high post more.

Let's hope this translates against more difficult teams.

I have a feeling other top notch teams know the Spurs game plan so well that adjusting to RJ won't be that difficult. But I hope that isn't the case.

[Flux451]

Idunno, I'd venture to guess that most of those dunks came out of transition or cuts to the paint.

I'm not saying he's never able to get around people; he's a slasher. That's what slashers do.

To me though, he seems to either get cut off, pick up an offensive foul, or drive the ball into traffic more often than he ends up scoring on these attempts. At least earlier they were calling fouls when he got into the paint, but even that has trickled down (compounded by his own missed free throws).

Good points. That open lane on the set play were he slammed it was because of Kings poor defense. Omir or Omar has a lot of work to do on D.

[Parker2112]

Idunno, I'd venture to guess that most of those dunks came out of transition or cuts to the paint.

I think your probably right about this, but I have seen him will his way through defenders on the baseline.


To me though, he seems to either get cut off, pick up an offensive foul, or drive the ball into traffic more often than he ends up scoring on these attempts. At least earlier they were calling fouls when he got into the paint, but even that has trickled down (compounded by his own missed free throws).

I think his ability to draw fouls has dwindled as his involvement has gone down, but I do think he gets the benefit of the call more often than not. I would even venture to say he gets the whistle at a greater clip than TP. TP tends to get the offensive foul, especially when he's being guarded by Beno:lol

[Parker2112]

I have a feeling other top notch teams know the Spurs game plan so well that adjusting to RJ won't be that difficult. But I hope that isn't the case.

IMO, This will be when we finally see if the RJ trade actually meets expectations...when we are playing quality teams and we call RJ's number.

Funny thing though, I think Pop would prefer to see RJ the solid defender than RJ the offensive weapon.

[EricB]

RJ's speed is still there.

[Fabbs]

Fourth, after the game RJ mentioned that Pop has focused for the most part on defense. For the fly-by-night fans who are calling RJ a failure less than 20 games in, understand that Pop doesn't usually care to focus on offense...defense is Spurs basketball, and wins titles. For those of you who joined the bandwagon when RJ came aboard, hoping to see explosive Phoenix Suns brand basketball, please take the next available train to lakaluva's house...we don't need you here. (Funny. I remember seeing open invitations on this board to join the Spurs bandwagon after RJ arrived...guess we picked up quite a lot of trash that way.)
Thats why we've had Mike Finley locking down the opponents PF and athletic SFs the last two seasons.
Pops all about the D.
Spare us. :lmao

[Fabbs]

After last night's game, the causes of Jefferson's ineffectiveness became clear.

First, Jefferson is lethal on the break. That is too bad, because TP generally doesn't handle the break well unless he is schooling the opposing team's transition D as a one-man fast break. But last night, TP used an early transition opportunity to get RJ going, and it seemed to do wonders for RJ.

Second, RJ needs a PG who is looking to create. Well, last night TP did this through most of the first quarter, and it brought not only RJ into the game but also Dice and Bogans. This sacrifice (TP could have easily ran through the defense for a bucket) gave us more weapons down the stretch and will continue to do so for the season's remainder.
Good point on TP needing to act like a real point more often with RJ. With everyone for that matter.

[Parker2112]

Thats why we've had Mike Finley locking down the opponents PF and athletic SFs the last two seasons.
Pops all about the D.
Spare us. :lmao

Team defense. Finley got burn because he follows orders.

Any true Spurs fan would know that athleticism counts for shit with Pop. He wants guys who can grasp the system and play a role, not lock-down defenders. Finley fits that to a T.

And he played for dirt cheap when we were trying to win titles under-budget.

New to the team, eh?

[rascal]

RJ is an open court player. He is great running the break and running in transistion. The spurs need to push the ball more often when opportunities present themselves. You get Jefferson going with a couple of easy fast break transistion baskets his entire game improves from there. And I agree Jefferson needs space to operate. He is not a deadly spot up shooter and plays better on the move.

The spurs need to utilize him to the player he is not try to fit him in some type of mold that has worked in the past with different players.

[Flux451]

RJ is an open court player. He is great running the break and running in transistion. The spurs need to push the ball more often when opportunities present themselves. You get Jefferson going with a couple of easy fast break transistion baskets his entire game improves from there. And I agree Jefferson needs space to operate. He is not a deadly spot up shooter and plays better on the move.

The spurs need to utilize him to the player he is not try to fit him in some type of mold that has worked in the past with different players.

True. Plus I like the fact that Blair has good vision and an excellent passer on the fly. I think they can compliment each other.

[rascal]

True. Plus I like the fact that Blair has good vision and an excellent passer on the fly. I think they can compliment each other.


Agree. Blair needs to be on the floor more. Same goes for Hill. The spurs need to get Jefferson, Hill and Blair going. They are not maximizing those guys potential now.

[Fabbs]

Team defense. Finley got burn because he follows orders.

Any true Spurs fan would know that athleticism counts for shit with Pop. He wants guys who can grasp the system and play a role, not lock-down defenders. Finley fits that to a T.

And he played for dirt cheap when we were trying to win titles under-budget.

New to the team, eh?
Hardy merit a response. We won titles with Bruce Bowen and Man From Nazr. Got it?
The LOSER mentality that it's better to have a suck ass defender who follows orders is vs a real defender is....
As to Finley coming over for "cheap", we were the class of the NBA after 2005 and he wanted a title. Which he did not deliver but instead helped us lose to Dallas, the team that paid him 20 million to leave! The asstard has earned something like 127 million is his overpaid ass career. Plus he did NOT give the Spurs a break on his most recent indecent extension when he could have taken minimum. Get bent. You are clueless.

[Leetonidas]

Why does everyone on the forum talk like they're making some huge discovery that Popovich hasn't noticed yet? Trust me, Pop and his coaching staff know a lot more than anyone on here do and they are certainly aware of what RJ needs to be effective.

[honestfool84]

Agree. Blair needs to be on the floor more. Same goes for Hill. The spurs need to get Jefferson, Hill and Blair going. They are not maximizing those guys potential now.

RJ, Hill, Blair, AND McDyess.

[Leetonidas]

Hardy merit a response. We won titles with Bruce Bowen and Man From Nazr. Got it?
The LOSER mentality that it's better to have a suck ass defender who follows orders is vs a real defender is....
As to Finley coming over for "cheap", we were the class of the NBA after 2005 and he wanted a title. Which he did not deliver but instead helped us lose to Dallas, the team that paid him 20 million to leave! The asstard has earned something like 127 million is his overpaid ass career. Plus he did NOT give the Spurs a break on his most recent indecent extension when he could have taken minimum. Get bent. You are clueless.

Everything you typed is completely irrelevant and devoid of any type of basketball knowledge. You sir, are a complete moron. Now, kindly sign out, drive to the I-10 overpass, and leap off. :tu

[Fabbs]

Everything you typed is completely irrelevant and devoid of any type of basketball knowledge. You sir, are a complete moron. Now, kindly sign out, drive to the I-10 overpass, and leap off. :tu
Are you applying for the position of Assistant Oil Boi to PopnFins and Bonner when they want to have a 3some? Is your avitar the mouth position you are assuming in anticipation, or is that just your perma mouth in all things Popped?

:lol You suck so badly.

[rascal]

Everything you typed is completely irrelevant and devoid of any type of basketball knowledge. You sir, are a complete moron. Now, kindly sign out, drive to the I-10 overpass, and leap off. :tu

Why don't you add something of value instead of trashing someone elses post.

[Solid D]

Thanks, Parker 2112, for delivering this message in a gentle enough manner as not to offend Parker lovers.

Some of us are too blunt.

[rascal]

RJ, Hill, Blair, AND McDyess.

McDyess is over the hill and is only a role player now. Hill, Blair and Jefferson have far more upside and can add far more value than what the spurs are getting out of them.

[BlackBellamy]

Everything you typed is completely irrelevant and devoid of any type of basketball knowledge. You sir, are a complete moron. Now, kindly sign out, drive to the I-10 overpass, and leap off. :tu

Pretty sure that Fabbs is an Pop-hating troll. If you look through his past posts (in particular the threads he's started) it's hard to come to another logical conclusion for the idiocy.

[Leetonidas]

Are you applying for the position of Assistant Oil Boi to PopnFins and Bonner when they want to have a 3some? Is your avitar the mouth position you are assuming in anticipation, or is that just your perma mouth in all things Popped?

:lol You suck so badly.

Seeing as how I'm not really a Finley or Bonner fan, no. I'm just not a retard like you, wasting a useless life with complaining on a message board about Popovich and Finley like it's gonna make a difference because I'm so depressed with everything else in my life that I have to fill the hole with constant whining and PMS-woman type bitching like a little cuckold faggot...

You're pretty sad. Every single one of your posts is the same. I kinda feel sorry for you, except I remember that you're a fucking doucher.

I feel kinda dumb for replying to your trollish behavior, but I would prefer if you realized that you're wasting your existence and go out and do something productive.

[Solid D]

McDyess is over the hill and is only a role player now. Hill, Blair and Jefferson have far more upside and can add far more value than what the spurs are getting out of them.

McDyess was hired to be a role player. He's a very valuable role player. I haven't seen very many guys get to the middle on him. 9 rebounds and 2 Blocked Shots in 23 minutes last night isn't too shabby.

[BlackBellamy]

McDyess was hired to be a role player. He's a very valuable role player. I haven't seen very many guys get to the middle on him. 9 rebounds and 2 Blocked Shots in 23 minutes last night isn't too shabby.

Really, was everyone expecting a big man next to Tim to make a lot of noise? Even D-Rob kept it (somewhat) quiet next to Duncan. He has (in my opinion), more or less found his defensive game on this squad and is still searching for his offense. Things all said and done, I think he'll be just as valuable getting us back in the upper standings as a clicking RJ, or a healthy Manu on the second squad (not counting how valuable "vintage" Manu is for close-outs). I, personally, still love the pick-up.

[Parker2112]

Pop and his coaching staff know a lot more than anyone on here do and they are certainly aware of what RJ needs to be effective.

I agree with this, BUT I think Pop is walking a fine line between carving out room for the new guys and preserving touches for the guys who won titles for us, and will represent SA in the HOF. I don't think that is an easy thing to do...it's probably even harder for a military man like Pop.

[Parker2112]

Hardy merit a response. We won titles with Bruce Bowen and Man From Nazr. Got it?
The LOSER mentality that it's better to have a suck ass defender who follows orders is vs a real defender is....
As to Finley coming over for "cheap", we were the class of the NBA after 2005 and he wanted a title. Which he did not deliver but instead helped us lose to Dallas, the team that paid him 20 million to leave! The asstard has earned something like 127 million is his overpaid ass career. Plus he did NOT give the Spurs a break on his most recent indecent extension when he could have taken minimum. Get bent. You are clueless.

I didn't say I agree with Pop's thinking, but I'm saying this was what Pop's thinkking. This is what makes us different from the Lakers.

Nazr blew too many assignments and had hands of steel. Bruce was probably what allowed Finley to hang around so long...

As for Finley being overpaid, that is what the Mavs are good at, has nothing to do with his career here...he was never overpaid here.

And for the record, Fin did win a title here. And I have advocated trading him for some time if you were wondering.

[BlackBellamy]

We're still under 20 games, I'm pretty sure we're achieving less than what Pop and the FO thought we'd be doing at this time, but I doubt they're pulling out clumps hair by the roots just yet. Last night, albeit against a poor Kings team, was the first time this season that I've noticed a lot of individual player glimpses of what could very well be in store later in season. Hope never stopped, and faith is now creeping in.

[Parker2112]

Thanks, Parker 2112, for delivering this message in a gentle enough manner as not to offend Parker lovers.

Some of us are too blunt.

Anyone with a screen name like Solid D can probably take exception to Parker now and then. There are always those of us who love what the Spurs brought on the defensive end, and hate to trade baskets with the opposition. But I think you can only blame Parker to a point...Pop always holds the final say.

[DesignatedT]

Hence, the numerous dunks...

Sorry but I've seen him blow by guys on the baseline more than a few times this season.

sorry... but, jefferson doesnt blow by anyone on the court....... he has a lot of trouble in ISO situations.... he needs to run pick an roll.

[Parker2112]

sorry... but, jefferson doesnt blow by anyone on the court....... he has a lot of trouble in ISO situations.... he needs to run pick an roll.

It depends on the defender. I have seen him resort to the shot at times, but I have also seen him drive the baseline and thrown down a reverse jam...as have you I assume.

[dbestpro]

McDyess was hired to be a role player. He's a very valuable role player. I haven't seen very many guys get to the middle on him. 9 rebounds and 2 Blocked Shots in 23 minutes last night isn't too shabby.

Yes, he collected 9 rebounds but he also gave up a ton of points in the paint. Our defense in the past was to crowd the shooters and make them drive into our shot blockers. The interior defense appears to be too slow to block enough of these shots for this to still be effective. This is why I still believe that Ian and Haislip deserve some PT because I think they could be very effective from this point of team defense.

[UnWantedTheory]

Idunno, I'd venture to guess that most of those dunks came out of transition or cuts to the paint.

I'm not saying he's never able to get around people; he's a slasher. That's what slashers do.

To me though, he seems to either get cut off, pick up an offensive foul, or drive the ball into traffic more often than he ends up scoring on these attempts. At least earlier they were calling fouls when he got into the paint, but even that has trickled down (compounded by his own missed free throws).

He has also had a tendency to pass out of his drives when he should be more aggressive. Not necessarily getting beat by the defense. His confidence has alot to do with it. He seems like he doesnt want to fuck up sometimes,...Well IMO.

[senorglory]

The LOSER mentality that it's better to have a suck ass defender who follows orders is vs a real defender is....

Not an actual debate or controversy. Noone here is advocating for 'suck ass defender[s].'

[TJastal]

Yes, he collected 9 rebounds but he also gave up a ton of points in the paint. Our defense in the past was to crowd the shooters and make them drive into our shot blockers. The interior defense appears to be too slow to block enough of these shots for this to still be effective. This is why I still believe that Ian and Haislip deserve some PT because I think they could be very effective from this point of team defense.

If you want specifically shot blocking then why would you suggest those two unproven rookies when you have one of the best shot blockers of the past decade, Theo Ratliff riding the pine?