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admiralsnackbar
12-14-2009, 02:00 PM
BY THOMAS H. JOHNSON, M. CHRIS MASON | DECEMBER 10, 2009


rjv's post in the Nobel speech thread reminded me of this article. Don't worry -- I promise not to post any more threads today. :lol
Snack

As German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer once said, truth is ridiculed, then denied, and then "accepted as having been obvious to everyone from the beginning." So let's start with the obvious: There isn't the slightest possibility that the course laid out by Barack Obama in his Dec. 1 speech (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/12/01/the_way_forward_in_afghanistan_and_pakistan) will halt or even slow the downward spiral toward defeat in Afghanistan. None. The U.S. president and his advisors labored for three months and brought forth old wine in bigger bottles. The speech contained not one single new idea or approach, nor offered any hint of new thinking about a conflict that everyone now agrees the United States is losing. Instead, the administration deliberated for 94 days to deliver essentially "more men, more money, try harder." It sounded ominously similar to Mikhail Gorbachev's "bloody wound" speech that led to a similar-sized, temporary Soviet troop surge in Afghanistan in 1986.
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But the Soviet experience in Afghanistan isn't what everyone is comparing Obama's current predicament to; it's Vietnam. The president knows it, and part of his speech was a rebuttal of those comparisons. It was a valiant effort, but to no avail. Afghanistan is Vietnam all over again.
In his speech, the president offered three reasons why the two conflicts are different. And all are dead wrong. First, Obama noted that Afghanistan is being conducted by a "coalition" of 43 countries -- as if war by committee would magically change the outcome (a throwback to former President George W. Bush's "Iraq coalition" mathematics). The truth is, outside of a handful of countries, it's basically a coalition of pacifists. In fact, more foreign troops fought alongside the United States in Vietnam than are now actually fighting with Americans today. Only nine countries in today's 43-country coalition have more than 1,000 personnel there; nine others have 10 (yes, not even a dozen people) -- or fewer. And although Australia and New Zealand have sent a handful of excellent special operations troops to Afghanistan, only Britain, Canada, and France are providing significant forces willing to conduct conventional offensive military operations. That brings the coalition's combat-troop contribution to approximately 17,000. Most of the other 38 "partners" have strict rules prohibiting them from ever doing anything actually dangerous. Turkish troops, for example, never leave their firebase in Wardak province, according to U.S. personnel who monitor it.
In Vietnam, by contrast, there were six countries fighting with the United States. South Korea alone had three times more combat troops in that country (50,000) than the entire coalition has in Afghanistan today. The Philippines (10,500), Australia (7,600), New Zealand (500), Thailand (about 1,000), and Taiwan also had boots on the ground. So the idea that Afghanistan's coalition sets it apart doesn't hold water.
The president went on to assert that the Taliban are not popular in Afghanistan, whereas the Viet Cong represented a broadly popular nationalist movement with the support of a majority of the Vietnamese. But this is also wrong. Neither the Viet Cong then, nor the Taliban now, have ever enjoyed the popular support of more than 15 percent of the population, according to Daniel Ellsberg (http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=4375), the senior Pentagon official who courageously leaked the Pentagon Papers revealing the military's endemic deceit in the Vietnam War.

The president's final argument, that Afghanistan is different because Vietnam never attacked American soil, is a red herring. History is overflowing with examples of just causes that have gone down in defeat. To suggest that the two conflicts will have different outcomes because the U.S. cause in Afghanistan is just (whereas, presumably from the speech, the war in Vietnam was not) is simply specious. The courses and outcomes of wars are determined by strategy, not the justness of causes or the courage of troops.
The reality on the ground is that Afghanistan is Vietnam redux. Afghan President Hamid Karzai's regime is an utterly illegitimate, incompetent kleptocracy. The Afghan National Army (ANA) -- slotted to take over the conflict when the coalition pulls out -- will not even be able to feed itself in five years, much less turn back the mounting Taliban tide. The U.S. Center for Army Lessons Learned determined by statistical analysis that the ANA will never grow larger than 100,000 men because nearly 30 percent either desert or fail to re-enlist each year. The ANA is disproportionately Tajik, drug use is a major problem, all recruits are illiterate, and last month the ANA reached only half its modest recruiting goal despite 40 percent unemployment nationwide. The American media, in its own regression to 1963, simply regurgitates Pentagon press releases that vastly inflate the actual size of the Afghan military, which is actually less than 60,000 men, just 32,000 of whom are combat troops.
The strategy's other component for dealing with the Taliban, "negotiating with moderates," is also ludicrous to anyone who is familiar with the insurgents. The Taliban are a virus. There is no one to negotiate with, and from their perspective, nothing to discuss. And the Taliban know they are winning. Meanwhile, commanding Gen. Stanley McChrystal's plan to secure the urban areas (rather than the rural countryside where the insurgency is actually metastasizing) is plagiarized from the famous never-written textbook, How to Lose a War in Afghanistan, authored jointly by Alexander the Great, the British Empire, and the Soviet Union.
Most critically of all, Pakistan's reaction to Obama's speech was to order its top military intelligence service, the ISI, to immediately begin rebuilding and strengthening covert ties to the Afghan Taliban in anticipation of their eventual return to power, according to a highly placed Pakistani official. There will be no more genuine cooperation from Pakistan (if there ever was).

And that is why the United States is now headed for certain defeat in Afghanistan. Obama's new "strategy" is no strategy at all. It is a cynical and politically motivated rehash of Iraq policy: Toss in a few more troops, throw together something resembling local security forces, buy off the enemies, and get the hell out before it all blows up. Even the dimmest bulb listening to the president's speech could not have missed the obvious link between the withdrawal date for combat troops from Iraq (2010), the date for beginning troop reductions in Afghanistan (2011), and the domestic U.S. election cycle.
So we are faced with a conundrum. Obama is one of the most intelligent men ever to hold the U.S. presidency. But no intelligent person could really believe that adding 30,000 troops to Afghanistan, a country four times larger than Vietnam, for a year or two, following the same game plan that has resulted in dismal failure there for the past eight years, could possibly have any impact on the outcome of the conflict.
Arthur Conan Doyle's character Sherlock Holmes used to say that "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." The only conclusion one can reach from the president's speech, after eliminating the impossible, is that the administration has made a difficult but pragmatic decision: The war in Afghanistan is unwinnable, and the president's second term and progressive domestic agenda cannot be sacrificed to a lost cause the way that President Lyndon B. Johnson's was for Vietnam. The result of that calculation was what we heard on Dec. 1: platitudes about commitment and a just cause; historical amnesia; and a continuation of the exact same failed policies that got the United States into this mess back in 2001, concocted by the same ship of fools, many of whom are still providing remarkably bad advice to this administration.
We believe the president knows perfectly well that Afghanistan is Vietnam all over again, both domestically and, as we wrote in Military Review (http://usacac.army.mil/CAC2/MilitaryReview/Archives/English/MilitaryReview_20091231_art004.pdf) this month, in Kabul and out in the Afghan hills, where good men are bleeding and dying. And he's seeking the same cynical exit strategy that Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger did in 1968: negotiating the best possible second-place position and a "decent interval" between withdrawal and collapse. In office less than a year, the Obama administration has already been seduced by the old beltway calculus that sometimes a little wrong must be done to get re-elected and achieve a greater good.



http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/12/10/sorry_obama_afghanistans_your_vietnam?page=0,0

mogrovejo
12-14-2009, 06:16 PM
The president's final argument, that Afghanistan is different because Vietnam never attacked American soil, is a red herring. History is overflowing with examples of just causes that have gone down in defeat. To suggest that the two conflicts will have different outcomes because the U.S. cause in Afghanistan is just (whereas, presumably from the speech, the war in Vietnam was not) is simply specious. The courses and outcomes of wars are determined by strategy, not the justness of causes or the courage of troops.

It's only worth fighting for a just cause if you can be certain of victory?

http://toddborger.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/churchill.jpg

admiralsnackbar
12-14-2009, 06:25 PM
Comparing Nazi Germany to a country without enough organization to govern itself, much less the will to do war with it's neighbors, seems extremely obnoxious. If we're there to police Pakistan and make Iran sweat, that's fine -- but as long as our central objective remains some state-building action in Bedrock, there's nothing Churchillian about this war philosophically, only rhetorically.

mogrovejo
12-14-2009, 06:55 PM
Comparing Nazi Germany to a country without enough organization to govern itself, much less the will to do war with it's neighbors, seems extremely obnoxious. If we're there to police Pakistan and make Iran sweat, that's fine -- but as long as our central objective remains some state-building action in Bedrock, there's nothing Churchillian about this war philosophically, only rhetorically.

Well, I certainly didn't compare Nazi Germany to Afghanistan - and in any case I don't think that the US are on war with Afghanistan.

What was the author trying to convey in the paragraph I addressed then?

mogrovejo
12-14-2009, 06:56 PM
Obama is one of the most intelligent men ever to hold the U.S. presidency. But no intelligent person could really believe that adding 30,000 troops to Afghanistan, a country four times larger than Vietnam, for a year or two, following the same game plan that has resulted in dismal failure there for the past eight years, could possibly have any impact on the outcome of the conflict.
Arthur Conan Doyle's character Sherlock Holmes used to say that "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." The only conclusion one can reach from the president's speech, after eliminating the impossible, is that ....

Why is it impossible that Obama simply isn't one of the most intelligent men ever to hold the U.S. presidency?

Winehole23
12-14-2009, 07:02 PM
Why is it impossible that Obama simply isn't one of the most intelligent men ever to hold the U.S. presidency?Who said it was?

admiralsnackbar
12-14-2009, 07:04 PM
First explain to me why you've chosen to invoke Churchill.

mogrovejo
12-14-2009, 07:14 PM
Who said it was?

The author (or he simply holds in high esteem the intelligence of former POTUS).


First explain to me why you've chosen to invoke Churchill.

Because Churchill fought for any cause he deemed as just no matter how uncertain the outcome.

admiralsnackbar
12-14-2009, 07:15 PM
Because Churchill fought for any cause he deemed as just no matter how uncertain the outcome.
You neglect to add that he had no choice.

mogrovejo
12-14-2009, 07:21 PM
You neglect to add that he had no choice.

Of course he had. In both wars there were appeasers.

admiralsnackbar
12-14-2009, 07:27 PM
Of course he had. In both wars there were appeasers.
In the early stages, yes, but when Hitler's ambitions became clear and the alternative became starkly to remain English (or what have you) and possibly perish or become German and possibly live, Chamberlin-esque notions of peaceful obliviousness fell by the wayside.

admiralsnackbar
12-14-2009, 07:34 PM
Because Churchill fought for any cause he deemed as just no matter how uncertain the outcome.
Also, valiant as that sounds, he didn't charge into the fray against Stalin, logic be damned.

EVAY
12-14-2009, 08:56 PM
Of course he had. In both wars there were appeasers.

There are still appeasers. See Patrick Buchanan's new book on the "Unnecessary War", which posits that the allies were wrong to defend Poland, and that all of World War II was unnecessary. It's all hogwash, of course, but it got published, and people in this country defend it.

Winehole23
12-14-2009, 11:09 PM
The author (or he simply holds in high esteem the intelligence of former POTUS). You chose to speak to the OP , rather than to the people all around you, who btw all had something to say.

That's no intellectual fault. Perhaps you can finally back up your swagger, and pretend you actually give a fuck about the courteous behavior you have mentioned so loudly and so conspicuously, so many times before here.

People will remind you what you said long after you forget it, so choose your words carefully.

Nbadan
12-15-2009, 01:14 AM
Most critically of all, Pakistan's reaction to Obama's speech was to order its top military intelligence service, the ISI, to immediately begin rebuilding and strengthening covert ties to the Afghan Taliban in anticipation of their eventual return to power, according to a highly placed Pakistani official. There will be no more genuine cooperation from Pakistan (if there ever was).

It's hard to take this article seriously...first the author plays fancy with the coalition numbers...and next he acts like the ISI hasn't been financing the Taliban resurgence in the first place...

:rolleyes

There are a number of negotiations going on behind the scenes that would have never been started under a McCain administration and GOP leadership...

symple19
12-15-2009, 02:20 AM
There are a number of negotiations going on behind the scenes that would have never been started under a McCain administration and GOP leadership...

please, do tell. What kind of negotiations?

And why wouldn't they have been possible under McCain?

admiralsnackbar
12-15-2009, 07:21 AM
please, do tell. What kind of negotiations?

And why wouldn't they have been possible under McCain?

I'm unable to resist repeating symple's valid questions... especially since I can't shake the sense that this war seems to be emanating from our generals' ambition/geopolitic itself.

Why would either Obama or McCain be more -- or less -- privy to strategic data or negotiations than his rival? The Pentagon may play hard and fast with some rules, but I tend to believe they will always fall well-shy of any treason involving the omission of crucial mission data.

Do you have reason to suspect otherwise, I guess I'm asking?

mogrovejo
12-15-2009, 02:46 PM
You chose to speak to the OP , rather than to the people all around you, who btw all had something to say.

That's no intellectual fault. Perhaps you can finally back up your swagger, and pretend you actually give a fuck about the courteous behavior you have mentioned so loudly and so conspicuously, so many times before here.

People will remind you what you said long after you forget it, so choose your words carefully.

Maybe, just maybe, the reason I addressed the article posted by the OP was because I was the first person posting a reply on this thread and the OP himself didn't add a comment of his own and just posted the article. What do you say? Can it be?

When others posted, I spoke to them as well. Are you going to apologize for your false accusations?

You're trying too hard. What was the purpose of this post besides trying to make an ad hominem attack? And a failed one.

mogrovejo
12-15-2009, 03:11 PM
In the early stages, yes, but when Hitler's ambitions became clear and the alternative became starkly to remain English (or what have you) and possibly perish or become German and possibly live, Chamberlin-esque notions of peaceful obliviousness fell by the wayside.

Not really. Especially in the I WW. But wasn't Churchill's genius exactly the ability to see further than others - namely the appeasers?


There are still appeasers. See Patrick Buchanan's new book on the "Unnecessary War", which posits that the allies were wrong to defend Poland, and that all of World War II was unnecessary. It's all hogwash, of course, but it got published, and people in this country defend it.

Yeps, I'm aware of it. Buchanan and his clique of fake-conservatives and anti-semites are know-nothings. An excellent apology of appeasement and a very critical view of Churchill is the marxist historian AJP Taylor's (for my money, one of the best historians in the XX century) The Origins of the Second World War (http://www.amazon.com/Origins-Second-World-War/dp/0684829479).

Winehole23
12-15-2009, 03:26 PM
Maybe, just maybe, the reason I addressed the article posted by the OP was because I was the first person posting a reply on this thread and the OP himself didn't add a comment of his own and just posted the article. What do you say? Can it be? Fair enough.


When others posted, I spoke to them as well.You do not so much speak with others as drop your thoughts on them, like a bird.


You're trying too hard. What was the purpose of this post besides trying to make an ad hominem attack? And a failed one.The board will decide for itself who's more full of it, you or me. Your declaration could turn out to be premature.

mogrovejo
12-15-2009, 03:29 PM
I don't have time to keep answering to your ad hominem arguments, WH.

I replied to the only thing posted in the thread - the OP which constituted of an article, and you accused me of replying to the OP instead of talking to the people around me. Enough said.

Winehole23
12-15-2009, 04:17 PM
I don't have time to keep answering to your ad hominem arguments, WH. Apparently, you're too busy poisoning wells to acknowledge them. (Ad hominem) Well and fine, mogro. Suit yourself. (Prosonomasia)