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admiralsnackbar
12-15-2009, 09:03 AM
The election of Barack Obama appeared to signal the decline of the neoconservative foreign policy brand. But six months into the Age of Obama, it’s apparent that neoconservatives and their allies are proving remarkably adept at exerting their influence in an administration that was supposed to be their worst nightmare.
The disastrous aftermath of the invasion of Iraq, neoconservatism's signature initiative, was widely seen as the key factor contributing to the collapse of the Bush presidency and the political descent of the Republican Party. Obama not only soundly defeated neoconservative favorite John McCain (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/McCain_John), he swept into office with a set of foreign policy prescriptions more antithetical to neoconservative ideology than any presidential candidate in decades. Elected on a platform of ending the Iraq war and initiating engagement with Iran, Obama soon demonstrated his willingness to take a tougher line with Israel than any president since George H.W. Bush.
But those tempted to consign neoconservatives to irrelevance would do well to remember the last time Republicans found themselves shut out of the White House. It was in 1997—soon after Bill Clinton pummeled Bob Dole to win a second term in office—that William Kristol (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Kristol_William) and Robert Kagan (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Kagan_Robert) founded the Project for the New American Century (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Project_for_the_New_American_Century) (PNAC), the now-infamous group that laid much of the intellectual groundwork for the Bush administration’s foreign policy.
Even from the depths of political exile, right-wing hawks—and the think tanks that foster their work—have proven themselves capable of resurrection and reinvention. Within a few months of Obama’s inauguration, the neoconservatives have shown clear signs of resurgence. From forming new organizations, to flirting with liberal and centrist think tanks, to using their continued foothold in newspaper op-ed pages and cable talk shows to influence —and narrow —the foreign policy debate, right-wing hawks have demonstrated an undeniable resilience in shaping the political agenda.
The leading right-wing think tanks have choreographed a not-so-subtle dance—throwing support behind the president when he takes positions compatible with neoconservative dogma, and excoriating him when he doesn’t. For a supposedly discredited movement, this “carrots-and-sticks” approach has proven surprisingly effective. .
The hawks’ influence has been especially evident in solidifying support for military escalation in Afghanistan, in fighting plans for diplomatic engagement with Iran, and in heading off any urge to revisit Bush-era abuses during the “global war on terror.”
One key aspect of the neoconservatives’ continued political influence is the power of their ideological cousins, the liberal hawks, who have given neoconservative-flavored ideas a seat at the table in every Democratic administration. The Obama administration is no exception, featuring several key figures with strongly hawkish reputations. Dennis Ross (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Ross_Dennis), the special advisor on Iran policy who was first based at the State Department before moving to the National Security Council (NSC), attracted the most media attention in this regard. But he is far from alone. Richard Holbrooke, the administration’s special envoy for Afghanistan and Pakistan, was a cofounder with Ross of the hawkish group United Against Nuclear Iran. And both Vice President Joe Biden and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton earned reputations as archetypal liberal hawks during their time in the Senate.
In addition, an army of former staffers from hawkish liberal think tanks —most prominently the recently-formed Center for a New American Security (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/center_for_a_new_american_security) —have joined Obama’s State Department and Pentagon. On the whole, Obama’s foreign policy appointments earned more praise from the right than from the left, with neoconservative Sen. Joe Lieberman (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Lieberman_Joe) (I-CT) calling them “virtually perfect.”
But building right-wing institutions has been just as important to the hawks as cultivating liberal allies. When they are shut out of power, neoconservatives migrate to the network of like-minded think tanks that sustain the movement in lean years. The most important of these—at least as a propagator of neoconservative foreign policy doctrine—has been the American Enterprise Institute (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/American_Enterprise_Institute), but there are plenty of others: the Heritage Foundation (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Heritage_Foundation), the Washington Institute for Near East Policy (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Washington_Institute_for_Near_East_Policy), the Hudson Institute (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Hudson_Institute), the Foundation for Defense of Democracies (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Foundation_for_Defense_of_Democracies), and more.

Change at AEI
Of the think tanks that have incubated right-wing foreign policy doctrine in the last 20 years, the American Enterprise Institute (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/American_Enterprise_Institute) (AEI) is preeminent. A few months before Obama was elected, AEI welcomed a new president of its own who was anything but a hawkish firebrand: Arthur Brooks, by most accounts a mild-mannered social scientist best known for his work on charitable giving and for writing a book called "Gross National Happiness: Why Happiness Matters for America—And How We Can Get More of It."
In short order, AEI's foreign policy division, under the oversight of Danielle Pletka (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Pletka_Danielle), carried out a purge of several neoconservative stalwarts—notably Michael Ledeen (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Ledeen_Michael), Joshua Muravchik (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Muravchik_Joshua), and Reuel Marc Gerecht (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Gerecht_Reuel_Marc). (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n1)[1 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n1)] Ledeen was notorious not only for his involvement in the Iran-Contra affair, but also for allegedly propagating disinformation about Saddam Hussein having bought yellowcake uranium in Niger. (Ledeen is also known for delivering a steady stream of dire warnings about the purported Iranian menace in books like The Iranian Time Bomb.) Muravchik, a strident defender of the Bush’s neocon-inspired “democracy promotion” agenda, had called for bombing Iran in 2006, (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n2)[2 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n2)] while Gerecht was a former PNAC staffer known as a prominent advocate of regime change in Tehran. Ledeen and Gerecht soon landed at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Foundation_for_Defense_of_Democracies) (FDD), a newer think tank with less funding and mainstream visibility than AEI.
On the surface, the purge appeared to distance AEI from hardline neoconservative doctrine, and particularly from those pushing for confrontation with Tehran. But in this case, appearances are deceiving. Pletka herself is anything but a foreign policy moderate, and even with the loss of Ledeen, Muravchik, and Gerecht, AEI remains a bastion of neoconservatism. In fact, on Iran —particularly as seen during the tumultuous aftermath of Iran’s disputed June 12 election—AEI has proved to be a stronghold for hawkish hardliners, notably Pletka herself, plus Michael Rubin (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Rubin_Michael), Frederick Kagan (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Kagan_Frederick), and Ali Alfoheh. Far from being a broad renunciation of neoconservatism, Pletka’s purge now looks like an attempt to restore credibility to neoconservatism by distancing AEI from some of its most extreme elements. On a fundamental level, little at AEI appears to have changed.

PNAC Reinvents Itself
Less than a month after Obama took office, the usual neoconservative suspects unveiled a new organization that some commentators instantly dubbed “PNAC 2.0” (and that one liberal blogger cleverly named “The Project for the Rehabilitation of Neoconservatism.”) This was the more blandly named Foreign Policy Initiative (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Foreign_Policy_Initiative) (FPI), founded by PNAC principals Kristol and Kagan along with Dan Senor (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/senor_dan), best known for his stint as the spokesman for the Coalition Provisional Authority in the early days of the Iraq war. (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n3)[3 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n3)]
While FPI’s mission statement offered rhetoric reminiscent of PNAC—arguing that “the United States remains the world’s indispensable nation” and warning against “policies that would lead us down the path to isolationism”—in its early months FPI seemed content to maintain a lower profile and more anodyne stance than its predecessor. Aside from sending out a daily news roundup, since its birth the organization’s public activities have been limited to hosting a March 31 conference at Washington's Mayflower Hotel entitled “Afghanistan: Planning for Success,” and publishing a July open-letter to President Obama promoting human rights in Russia which, a la PNAC, includes signatures from several key neocons as well as several reputable human rights activists. (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n4)[4 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n4)] (In late September, FPI will host a two-day event on “Advancing and Defending Democracy.” )
FPI’s March conference on Afghanistan offered unabashed support for Obama, to a degree that surprised many observers. The new president had just announced what many expected to be the first of several escalations of the Afghanistan effort, revealing plans to send 21,000 new troops to the theater.
A bipartisan cast of commentators—including headliner John McCain, Robert Kagan and his brother Frederick (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Kagan_Frederick), Rep. Jane Harman (D-CA), and Center for a New American Security (CNAS) president John Nagl—offered support for Obama’s escalation. However, many also used the moment to try to lock the president into further troop increases, arguing, as Nagl did, that the 21,000 represented “merely a down payment on the vastly expanded force needed to protect all 30 million Afghan people.” (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n5)[5 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n5)]
This praise for the Democratic president was consistent with Kristol and Kagan’s past modus operandi. Christian Brose, a former speechwriter in the Bush administration State Department, explained what he saw as the logic behind Kristol and Kagan’s ventures: “PNAC was set up not to tar and feather Democrats for being weak-kneed appeasers of evil, but to encourage Clinton's more internationalist tendencies, and to give him political cover from the right to do so against his more nationalist, conservative critics. Judging by the conference today, my sense is that FPI has been founded with much the same purpose vis-à-vis Obama.” (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n6)[6 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n6)] FPI founder Senor admitted as much, saying that “our objective right now is to give President Obama cover in the eyes of those who would otherwise be skeptical on the right.”
While more strident groups like FDD were quick to denounce Obama’s every move as feckless and cowardly, FPI took a savvier tack. When Obama took interventionist (what Brose called “internationalist”) positions, FPI would sing his praises, thereby building goodwill while further marginalizing anti-interventionists in both parties. As Obama would soon discover, it was only when he resisted the logic of intervention and escalation that the knives came out.
“There used to be a bipartisan consensus in this country on foreign policy, in particular when we have our sons and daughters at war,” CNAS’s Nagl said at the conference. “And I am hopeful that events like this will contribute to that.” (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n7)[7 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n7)] The importance of bipartisan support for escalation in Afghanistan could not be overstated in shaping the course of the debate in Washington. (The FPI conference came only two months after Sen. Joseph Lieberman (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Lieberman_Joe) gave a widely-publicized speech at the Brookings Institution, Washington’s premier liberal establishment organ, calling for six distinct “surges” in Afghanistan.) (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n8)[8 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n8)] It was for this reason that Nagl’s appearance at the FPI conference was so notable—for if Kristol and Kagan’s PNAC was the leading intellectual force behind the Bush administration’s foreign policy, so far it is CNAS that has played that role for the Obama administration.

Center for a New American Security
CNAS was founded in 2007 by Kurt Campbell (soon to become Obama’s top State Department Asia hand) and Michele Flournoy (soon to become undersecretary of defense for policy, the Pentagon’s third-ranking position, and widely rumored to be a potential successor to Secretary of Defense Robert Gates). When its founders headed an influx of roughly a dozen CNAS fellows into the Obama administration, (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n9)[9 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n9)] the organization turned to Nagl, a mediagenic retired Army colonel, Rhodes s cholar, and author of an acclaimed book on counterinsurgency (COIN) warfare.
Choosing Nagl made sense, since CNAS made its name largely because of its expertise in COIN and other forms of irregular operations.
Unlike traditional military think tanks, which tended to focus primarily on conventional warfare against other militaries, CNAS was formed in the midst of the messy wars of occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan. Its debut came in 2007, just as General David Petraeus was preparing to implement the “surge” plan in Iraq (which AEI’s Kagan had vigorously pushed); the perceived success of the surge soon made Petraeus a revered figure among hawks and brought COIN to the forefront of American military strategy.
CNAS’s fellows include a number of prominent figures from the COIN world, such as David Kilcullen, an Australian-born COIN strategist and former Petraeus advisor; Andrew Exum, who runs the influential blog Abu Muqawama; and Thomas Ricks, author of the admiring surge account The Gamble.
It would be inaccurate to portray CNAS as indiscriminately hawkish; its fellows include some notable Iraq war skeptics such as Ricks. But the organization’s general self-presentation, like COIN itself, comes across as more technocratic than political, concerned with tactics rather than strategy. Counterinsurgency doctrine’s emphasis on political solutions and so-called civilian protection over brute firepower has made it attractive to CNAS and other center-liberal groups eager to balance humanitarian concerns with a desire to avoid seeming “soft” on foreign policy. CNAS did not come to prominence with sweeping statements about the justice or wisdom of America’s wars in Iraq in Afghanistan; rather, its output tended to be pragmatic advice on how to more effectively manage these wars.
Exum described his own approach as “focused on counterinsurgency operations and tactics without getting involved too much in either policy or strategy,” a characterization that could describe CNAS itself. Exum conceded that this sort of narrow tactical focus has been criticized as “at best irresponsible and at worst immoral,” and in response recently launched a discussion on his blog of whether the Afghan war is worth fighting at all. (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n10)[10 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n10)]
But CNAS’s impressive roster of alums in the Obama administration is a testament to the influence of the organization’s technocratic approach in Democratic foreign policy circles. At the Pentagon alone, Flournoy brought no fewer than seven CNAS colleagues with her:
- James Miller, principal deputy undersecretary of defense for policy
- Colin Kahl, deputy assistant secretary for the Middle East
- Price Floyd, principal deputy assistant secretary for public affairs
- Shawn Brimley, special advisor on strategy
- Vikram Singh, special advisor on Afghanistan and Pakistan
- Eric Pierce, deputy chief for legislative affairs
- Alice Hunt, special assistant
Other CNAS alums include Campbell and Derek Chollet in the State Department and Nate Tibbits in the White House Office of Presidential Personnel. (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n11)[11 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n11)]
Within the new bipartisan consensus favoring the escalating application of COIN doctrine to Afghanistan—a consensus stretching from CNAS to FPI, Nagl to Kristol—only a few isolated voices of dissent have emerged.
Perhaps the most prominent is Andrew J. Bacevich, a former Army colonel, Boston University historian, and leading COIN critic. Along with a veritable Who’s Who of Washington’s foreign policy media establishment, in June Bacevich attended CNAS’s conference at D.C.’s Willard Hotel. General Petraeus was the keynote speaker.
Appearing at a panel on Afghanistan, Bacevich reiterated his belief that the current enthusiasm for COIN serves as a smokescreen for maintaining a continued U.S. imperial presence built around the occupation and pacification of far-flung countries.
“At the outset of these proceedings, John Nagl referred to what he called ‘our ongoing global counterinsurgency campaign,’” Bacevich noted. “And Nate [Fick, CNAS’s CEO], in his remarks, told us that the goal of counterinsurgency is to make the population feel secure. It would follow that the aim or the objective of the global counterinsurgency campaign should be to make the global population feel secure.
“ And I would simply suggest that we really don’t need to undertake such a grandiose effort and we cannot afford to undertake such a grandiose effort. As long as we maintain adequate defenses, Al Qaeda operatives hunkered down in their caves pose no more than a modest threat to U.S. national security.”
Bacevich's gloomy message was strikingly out of synch with the generally upbeat tone of the CNAS conference. The audience responded with nervous laughter and applause. Panelist Andrew Exum, the COIN specialist who had just co-authored a new CNAS report on the war in Afghanistan, called Bacevich's remarks “a gloriously heretical response—and one that’s completely divorced from the political realities facing this administration.”
Bacevich seemed to agree. “The heretic has no expectations that in this city any of these notions will be taken seriously,” he said with a rueful chuckle. (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n12)[12 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n12)]

The Limits of Bipartisanship
Although CNAS in the liberal center and FPI on the right may have been important in building support for Obama’s escalation in Afghanistan, the new president quickly discovered, if he did not know already, that this bipartisan support was likely to be a rare occurrence. On other issues—particularly the defense budget, detainee treatment, and Iran—right-wing think tanks forcefully opposed the president, managing to inflict considerable political damage.
Pushback against the administration’s new defense budget— which scaled back several of the hawks’ favorite programs, including the F-22 jet fighter and missile defense funding, even as it increased overall defense spending— began shortly after Secretary Gates unveiled it on April 6. That same day, AEI fellows Thomas Donnelly (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Donnelly_Thomas) and Gary Schmitt (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Schmitt_Gary) published a provocative Wall Street Journal op-ed entitled “Obama and Gates Gut the Military.” (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n13)[13 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n13)] Over the coming weeks, AEI hosted two events warning about the dangers of the new budget— one featuring Sen. John Cornyn, the other featuring Donnelly, Frederick Kagan, and Sen. Saxby Chambliss. (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n14)[14 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n14)] Obama and Gates did ultimately manage to win the battle over the F-22, although it took a notably caustic speech from Gates at the Economic Club of Chicago in July to seal the plane’s fate.
For its part, AEI’s friendly rival, the Heritage Foundation (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Heritage_Foundation)—whose politics tend to be more generically hawkish than narrowly neoconservative—focused primarily on missile defense, a longtime hawkish hobbyhorse. Heritage went so far as to produce “33 Minutes,” described as “a thrilling, one-hour documentary that tells the story of the very real threat foreign enemies, like Iran and North Korea, pose to every one of us.” (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n15)[15 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n15)] (The title refers to the amount of time a hypothetical enemy missile would take to hit the United States.) In actuality, the film—along with the two Heritage events that accompanied it—served primarily as advertisements for missile defense and warnings against the Obama administration’s cuts in this area.
On torture and other “war on terror” issues, AEI also played a prominent part, most notably by hosting former Vice-President Dick Cheney (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Cheney_Dick)’s much-publicized May 21 speech defending the Bush administration’s policies. Cheney’s AEI speech, which came on the same day that Obama himself spoke out on detainee issues, marked the apex of the former vice-president’s torrent of criticism against his successors. Cheney claimed that “enhanced interrogation” prevented the deaths of “thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of innocent people,” warned that closing Guantanamo Bay prison “would be cause for great danger and regret in the years to come,” and alleged that “releasing the interrogation memos was flatly contrary to the national security interest of the United States.” (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n16)[16 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n16)]
In the face of this political onslaught by Cheney and congressional Republicans, Democrats in Congress wilted. Fearing a backlash from constituents, they stripped away the funding meant to close Guantanamo, and many announced they would oppose the transfer of Guantanamo prisoners to their districts—moves that put the president’s decision to close Guantanamo in serious jeopardy. While recent reports indicate that Attorney General Eric Holder is still considering appointing a criminal prosecutor to investigate CIA torture of detainees, the Obama administration apparently has ruled out any probe of the top-ranking Bush administration officials who actually formulated detainee policies.
Although AEI and its brethren could not in fairness claim much responsibility for these events, AEI had played a small but crucial role in giving Cheney his most high-profile forum.

Hawking Iran
But it was on the Iran issue that the Washington hawks worked hardest to undercut Obama. To be sure, their viewpoint had allies within the administration, most notably Dennis Ross. Although they had founded United Against Nuclear Iran (UANI), after joining the Obama administration, Ross and Holbrooke left the group—at which point longtime Republican political operative Mark Wallace took over. UANI’s advisory board includes prominent neoconservative-aligned hawks such as Fouad Ajami and R. James Woolsey (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Woolsey_James); as of August 2009, Ross and Holbrook were still listed on the “leadership” page of UANI’s website. (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n17)[17 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n17)]
Political fallout due to Ross and Holbrooke’s past involvement with UANI surfaced in the blogosphere in June, after UANI aired an advertisement promoting a hardline view of Iran and suggesting economic sanctions. (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n18)[18 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n18)] The ad, which implicitly undercut the Obama administration’s engagement strategy, caused renewed questioning of Ross’s role in the administration. “I’m shocked that Ross wouldn’t have completely dissociated himself from this group considering his government role, and the fact that UANI is advocating a position that not only is dangerous and contrary to current U.S. policy, but mirrors Israel’s interests and the goals of its military and intelligence apparatus,” wrote blogger Richard Silverstein. (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n19)[19 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n19)]
Ross’s involvement with the Iran hawks far predated the formation of UANI. He had previously been one of the key figures behind the Washington Institute for Near East Policy (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Washington_Institute_for_Near_East_Policy) (WINEP), unofficially known for its close links with the Israeli right. After helping to found WINEP in the 1980s, Ross returned in 2001 and served there until joining the Obama administration in 2009. He recently published a book co-written with WINEP’s David Makovsky that attracted notoriety for disputing some of the pillars of the administration’s Middle East policy (such as the idea of “linkage” between the Israeli-Palestinian and Iranian issues). (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n20)[20 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n20)]
In 2008, Ross participated in a WINEP task force—also featuring Obama’s future U.N. ambassador Susan Rice and key campaign advisor Anthony Lake—that produced a notably hawkish report about the Iranian nuclear issue. In the words of journalist Robert Dreyfuss, the report “opted for an alarmist view of Iran's nuclear program” and “raised the spurious fear that Iran plans to arm terrorist groups with nuclear weapons.” (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n21)[21 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n21)] Ross also took part in yet another task force—this one under the auspices of the Bipartisan Policy Center, and spearheaded by Michael Rubin and Makovsky’s brother Michael— which produced a report on Iran that journalist Jim Lobe characterized as a “road map to war.” (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n22)[22 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n22)]
Clearly, administration figures such as Ross, Holbrooke, and Rice have a history of hawkishness on the Iran issue, but all have insisted they would be team players and work faithfully to execute Obama’s engagement strategy. Neoconservatives outside the administration, however, had no compunctions about undercutting engagement, and it was here that the right-wing think tanks—notably AEI—came in. Even after it purged Ledeen, Muravchik, and Gerecht, AEI employed several of the Washington’s most prominent Iran hawks, including Michael Rubin (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Rubin_Michael), Frederick Kagan, and Ali Alfoneh.
Rubin, in particular, had been a leading critic of Obama’s plans for engagement with Tehran, arguing that the Islamic Republic’s leadership has no interest in a deal and that previous U.S. administrations had tried engagement—and failed.
In April 2009, under Frederick Kagan’s supervision, AEI launched the website IranTracker. The project is devoted to disseminating news and information about Iran, typically with an alarmist and hawkish slant. To mark the launch of IranTracker, AEI organized a conference on Iran policy that was headlined by Senator Joseph Lieberman and also featured Rubin, Kagan, and Kenneth Pollack of the Brookings Institution. It was one of five Iran-themed events that AEI hosted between the U.S. presidential elections in November 2008 and the Iranian elections in June 2009.
At IranTracker’s April 27 conference, Lieberman argued that Iran’s elections are ultimately unimportant, since “the overwhelming concentration of power in the Iranian political system lies not with the country's presidents, who change, but with the supreme leader, who rarely does”. (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n23)[23 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n23)] This is a widely held view among neoconservatives, some of whom even declared it would be better for Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to win reelection, since he would present a more alarming face to the world. (Daniel Pipes (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Pipes_Daniel) of the Middle East Forum (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Middle_East_Forum) attracted some notoriety for spelling out this view at a Heritage Foundation panel in early June.) (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n24)[24 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n24)]
But after Iran’s June 12 election ended in an Ahmadinejad victory widely alleged to have been the result of fraud, and images of the Iranian government’s repression of protesters were broadcast worldwide, neoconservatives at these think tanks led the charge in attacking Obama for his cautious response.
In the two weeks following Iran’s election, Michael Rubin wrote no fewer than six articles arguing that Obama’s engagement strategy had been discredited and accusing the president of “shirk his duty.” (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n25)[25 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n25)] Others, including AEI’s Danielle Pletka and Ali Alfoneh and FDD’s Ledeen and Gerecht, also got in on the act, writing op-eds and blog posts that contributed to the echo chamber of attacks on Obama’s Iran policy.
The leaders of FPI, which had earned praise for “moderation” by lavishing praise on Obama’s Afghanistan escalation, turned on the president with notable quickness. William Kristol co-wrote a [I]Weekly Standard editorial alleging that Obama’s “weakness” had made him “a de facto ally of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei.” (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n26)[26 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n26)]
Robert Kagan leveled the same accusation, writing a Washington Post column entitled “Obama, Siding With the Regime” which claimed that Obama’s “strategy toward Iran places him objectively on the side of the government's efforts.” (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n27)[27 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n27)] FPI cofounder Dan Senor appeared on CNN and, with FPI staffer Christian Whiton, wrote a [I]Wall Street Journal piece on “Five Ways Obama Could Promote Freedom in Iran,” including coordination with anti-regime expatriate leaders and increased funding for Radio Farda. (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n28)[28 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n28)] The latter measure was quickly incorporated into a bill sponsored by Senators Lieberman, John McCain, and Lindsey Graham.
AEI, FPI, and the other hawkish think tanks served as bases for what appears to have been a concerted media campaign aimed at discrediting Obama’s engagement strategy and forcing him to take a more hawkish line against Tehran. There are indications their strategy may have been successful, as Obama eventually stepped up his criticism of the Islamic Republic to say that he was “outraged” and “appalled” by its actions. However, it is also plausible that the intensification of Obama’s criticism during this time may have had more to do with the intensification of the regime’s repression of demonstrators. Regardless, the fierce media attacks did succeed in putting the administration on the defensive.
As the summer wore on, the administration showed signs of taking a harder line, suggesting that Iran only had until the September 30 meeting of the U.N. General Assembly to respond favorably to the engagement offer. Washington hawks focused in on sanctions targeting Iran’s refined petroleum imports as the next step, despite warnings from Iran analysts that sanctions would merely harm the Iranian people while solidifying support around the regime.
On July 22, the House Committee on Foreign Affairs held hearings revolving around the sanctions issue—hearings that were a tangible demonstration of neoconservatives’ continuing ability to influence the Iran debate. Of six speakers, two were centrists (Suzanne Maloney of the Brookings Institution and Karim Sadjadpour of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace); the remaining four were rightists who called for swiftly increasing sanctions: AEI’s Rubin, WINEP’s Patrick Clawson (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Clawson_Patrick), FDD’s Orde Kittrie, and the Hoover Institution’s (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Hoover_Institution) Abbas Milani. Soon after, a flood of anonymously-sourced media reports suggested that the administration itself was considering new sanctions, (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n29)[29 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n29)] while other reports suggested a September push for sanctions legislation in Congress backed by a media blitz from “Likud lobby” groups like AIPAC (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/American_Israel_Public_Affairs_Committee) and the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations. (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n30)[30 (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama#_ed n30)]
By all appearances, the backlash against Obama’s Iran policy spearheaded by the hawkish think tanks had been quite effective.

Staying Power
On Iran—as on Afghanistan, torture, and defense spending—groups like AEI and FPI have revealed a talent for continuing to influence political debates, even at a time when they are seen as representing a discredited ideology and party. Without real political power of their own, these groups have nonetheless been able to impact the decisions of those in power—most often by drumming up so much media attention for a hawkish line that Democrats in the executive and legislative branches have been forced to tack to the right to counter it.
The early visibility and viability of neoconservative think tanks over the first months of the Obama administration suggests that weakened or not, marginalized or not, these groups are likely to maintain their influence on Washington foreign policy debates for many years to come.
Daniel Luban writes for Inter Press Service and is a regular contributor to PRA’s Right Web (http://rightweb.irc-online.org/ (http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/)).


http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/neoconservative_resurgence_in_the_age_of_obama

Winehole23
12-15-2009, 10:45 AM
http://i42.tinypic.com/23st76b.gif

DarrinS
12-15-2009, 10:54 AM
I pretty much had to stop reading after this: "neoconservative favorite John McCain".

:lmao

Winehole23
12-15-2009, 11:04 AM
The moment of reversal was the Kosovo War, according to Raimondo.



What changed his foreign-policy purview, however, was the Kosovo War. Again he played the maverick role for all it was worth, taking up the cudgels against many in his own party. But this time, he was on the side of intervention.

Monday, April 5, 1999, was a busy day for McCain: Larry King, Charlie Rose, Catherine Crier, two appearances on MSNBC, another two on CNBC, capped by an interview on ABC’s “Nightline.” The next morning, he was up early for Don Imus. “We’ve turned down far more than we’ve accepted,” McCain enthused. It was “all McCain, all the time,” as one Republican strategist put it to the Washington Post, and it sure wasn’t hurting his presidential campaign.

“When I urged the president of the United States not to rule out the option of ground forces :wow, then I also assumed responsibility for what may be the loss of young Americans’ lives,” averred McCain. “I don’t know how it affects my campaign. But I’ve basically put my campaign on hold to some degree.” [Shades of October 2008? -Ed.]

This was disingenuous, at best. Far from putting his campaign on hold, his newfound visibility gave it a shot in the arm, and political operatives in both parties saluted the pragmatism of his stance. “He looks presidential at a time when many Republicans don’t believe the current president does,” said Whit Ayres, an Atlanta-based GOP pollster.

“He’s where the country is,” added Mark Mellman, a Democratic pollster. “Americans certainly like to win and they don’t like politicians sniping in the corner when the question is whether we’re going to win it.”

“We’re in it, and we’ve gotta win it!” McCain repeated endlessly as he berated his “isolationist” fellow Republicans and demanded that they get behind the president and support the war. Yet his support was framed by a critique of the handling of the conflict that disdained Clinton’s alleged timidity in taking steps to ensure a victory.

Three weeks after hostilities began, McCain delivered a speech to the Center for Strategic and International Studies in which he declared that American intervention in the Balkans had been effectively stymied: “I think it is safe to assume that no one, including me, anticipated the speed with which Serbia would defeat our objectives in Kosovo, and the scope of that defeat.” While conceding, “yes, the war is only three weeks old, and yes, NATO can and probably will prevail in this conflict with what is, after all, a considerably inferior adversary,” he warned “victory will not be hastened by pretending that things have just gone swimmingly.”

According to McCain, there were two big problems with the conduct of the war: first, “an excessively restricted air campaign that sought the impossible goal of avoiding war while waging one. The second is the repeated declarations from the president, vice president, and other senior officials that NATO would refrain from using ground troops even if the air campaign failed. These two mistakes were made in what almost seemed willful ignorance of every lesson we learned in Vietnam.”

We were, he warned, in danger of “losing” to the Serbian army—with its outdated equipment and complete lack of an air force—if we failed to launch air strikes that were “massive, strategic and sustained.” Furthermore, “no infrastructure targets should have been off limits”—factories, water plants, hospitals, schools, markets, whatever. Yes, “we all grieve over civilian casualties as well as our own losses,” but “they are unavoidable.”
http://www.amconmag.com/article/2008/feb/11/00007/

McCain was a strong voice against the existential threat of Serbia in 1999. He has been stalwart in his support of the fight against the existential threats posed by Afghanistan, Iraq and then Afghanistan again.

Like mogrovejo suggested in another context, maybe the man's principles got run over by the circumstances.

boutons_deux
12-15-2009, 11:09 AM
neocon are fake badasses and bullies who never have to fight the murderous wars they want the US to engage continuously. chickenshits in the pay of the MIC.

mogrovejo
12-15-2009, 01:57 PM
McCain is and has always been a prototypical Jacksonian, as explained by Walter Russel Mead. Neoconservatives of the 2nd generation are Wilsonians with little faith in international organizations that don't restrict access to illiberal regimes.

Winehole23
12-15-2009, 02:08 PM
McCain is and has always been a prototypical Jacksonian, as explained by Walter Russel Mead.When McCain sniffed the Presidency he changed his tune. NATO needed new missions. There is little doubt in my mind neocons favored McCain over Obama last year. Is there in yours?


Neoconservatives of the 2nd generation are Wilsonians with little faith in international organizations that don't restrict access to illiberal regimes.Sure. The resemblance to the John McCain of the last ten years is more than passing IMO.

mogrovejo
12-15-2009, 04:23 PM
When McCain sniffed the Presidency he changed his tune. NATO needed new missions.

I don't agree that McCain changed his tune. He changed it the same way Burke changed his tune when he supported the American Revolution but not the French Revolution. These subtilities aren't easy to understand to the mind deformed by ideology.


There is little doubt in my mind neocons favored McCain over Obama last year. Is there in yours?

No, although McCain wasn't the favourite candidate of neocons, especially during the republican primaries and Obama had the support of a few. But what is that supposed to mean? First, what you call neoconservatives aren't exactly single-issue voters; second, the guilty by association argument is a despicable one.


Sure. The resemblance to the John McCain of the last ten years is more than passing IMO.

Disagreed.

I guess it's still hard to swallow McCain's victory in the "surge" debate - and how reality proved him right against all odds.

Winehole23
12-15-2009, 04:39 PM
I don't agree that McCain changed his tune. He changed it the same way Burke changed his tune when he supported the American Revolution but not the French Revolution.Well, you never change yours. It all goes back to Burke, doesn't it?



These subtilities aren't easy to understand to the mind deformed by ideology.Subtilities. How ancien regime. If one read too much Edmund Burke one might warrantedly think this sort of word choice was still the ordinary usage, and not just stilted.

Nah. Couldn't be...


First, what you call neoconservatives aren't exactly single-issue votersAgree. That was never stipulated.


second, the guilty by association argument is a despicable one. Despicable.

A well poisoner, complaining about guilt by association. That's a rich one. :lol




Disagreed.

I guess it's still hard to swallow McCain's victory in the "surge" debate - and how reality proved him right against all odds.The surge was a resounding tactical success, short term; however it did not lead to the achievement of strategic political goals the tactics were always meant to serve, and our troops are still there. It's bit hard to countenance the argument that we've already won when we've not yet acheived our strategic objectives or brought US armed forces safely home.

Winehole23
12-15-2009, 06:00 PM
Geometry and theology!

http://juventudgijon.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/ignatius-reilly.jpg

ChumpDumper
12-15-2009, 06:01 PM
lol @ "against all odds."

The only way ultimate success can be measured in Iraq is when US forces leave. It could be that opposing forces in a potential renewed civil war are waiting for just that time.

spursncowboys
12-15-2009, 07:56 PM
lol @ "against all odds."

The only way ultimate success can be measured in Iraq is when US forces leave. It could be that opposing forces in a potential renewed civil war are waiting for just that time.

Under no conditions, the only success in Iraq is if it is missing American military? Who's success? How? I understand the notion that we shouldn't have gone there-I don't agree. But today, in 2009, you really think that? The only success that would be would be terrorists and druglords and Iranian mullahs. Our enemies, but worse our allies, will see that our political climate in America has no credibility or longevity. The Iraqi's will see us leaving and start making deals with the devil, in every way. Any country who worked with us will question which is more beneficial-democratic govt's with free trade, or authoritarian ran govt. What ever happened to the JFK and Truman branch of the democrats who realized that we should help any country become democratic and that there are such things as just war? When exactly did the dems become a bunch of populist pussies?

ChumpDumper
12-15-2009, 09:30 PM
So you are saying we should never leave?

Neocon.

Nbadan
12-15-2009, 09:32 PM
Ah, the old 'we're there argument' never works. Especially when the death of 100K's of people is involved...we lost the war when we failed to help the Iraqi people after we overthrew their government...poll after poll shows that the Iraqi people just want us out...that's not helping..

Winehole23
12-16-2009, 03:21 AM
we should help any country become democraticIs apparently still a real feeling out there. God help us. The Democrats were bad enough, now Republicans believe this too? Really? There's no opposition to never ending wars for democracy, anymore?

There used to be one, not long ago.

Winehole23
12-16-2009, 03:29 AM
democratic govt's with free trade, or authoritarian ran govtWhich do they have right now?

spurspf
12-16-2009, 03:36 AM
neo-cons are the worst. They want to go back to something that never was. Europeans, hell maybe even Chinese have more liberties than we do. We have so many laws that we need to ask, are we even free anymore?

Winehole23
12-16-2009, 03:37 AM
He'd kill the mule.

Winehole23
12-16-2009, 03:56 AM
neo-cons are the worst. They want to go back to something that never was.That's not what scares me. What scares me is that they want to go back to something that was. To a Cold War status quo ante, with terrorists standing in for the USSR.

A neocon at heart is a Cold War (i.e., anti-communist) liberal, rekindled by the flames of terror.

sabar
12-16-2009, 06:33 AM
Europeans, hell maybe even Chinese have more liberties than we do. We have so many laws that we need to ask, are we even free anymore?

That is a stretch. Slowly heading there? Yes. All democracy seems destined to end in oppression. In a few hundred years, I'd hope we would rise up and free ourselves again and not let some other country do nation-building for us. You can't force democracy on those who will not even rise up for it in the first place.

I don't see a neocon resurgence happening due to widespread bush-hate, though as the saying goes, "time heals all wounds."

DarrinS
12-16-2009, 09:02 AM
neo-cons are the worst. They want to go back to something that never was. Europeans, hell maybe even Chinese have more liberties than we do. We have so many laws that we need to ask, are we even free anymore?


:dramaquee

DarrinS
12-16-2009, 09:05 AM
Yes. All democracy seems destined to end in oppression.


Democracy and capitalism aren't perfect systems, just better than all the others.

spursncowboys
12-16-2009, 10:00 AM
Democracies at a higher percentage rate:
-trade with america
-invade other countries
-do not destroy entire groups of people
-allow more politcal dissent
...than other types of govt.

In the last 100 years, how many democratic countries have been a threat to our security?

If you believe that there are no reasons for war, or that our security is concrete and never needed to be questioned than we are on completely different worlds. Especially going back and reading unclassified reports from the KGB.

mogrovejo
12-16-2009, 10:01 AM
The surge was a resounding tactical success, short term

Sure, now that's obvious. But McCain was almost alone defending the surge in the public arena before that became obvious. Heck, McCain was criticizing Rumsfeld and the handling of the war before almost anybody.


however it did not lead to the achievement of strategic political goals the tactics were always meant to serve, and our troops are still there. It's bit hard to countenance the argument that we've already won when we've not yet acheived our strategic objectives or brought US armed forces safely home.

It didn't? Well, I suppose McCain never said "send the troops and in a month the entire thing is done and they can come back", did he? The improvements are being sustained, within a few months it's time to start scaling back the military force.

Winehole23
12-16-2009, 10:36 AM
It didn't? Well, I suppose McCain never said "send the troops and in a month the entire thing is done and they can come back", did he?No. You were the one crowing over temporary tactical gains.


The improvements are being sustained, within a few months it's time to start scaling back the military force.That process has already begun.

BTW, what improvements do you mean, and what evidence can you adduce that the improvements have been sustained to this day, besides your own naked assertion this is so?

spursncowboys
12-16-2009, 11:08 AM
No. You were the one crowing over temporary tactical gains.

That process has already begun.

BTW, what improvements do you mean, and what evidence can you adduce that the improvements have been sustained to this day, besides your own naked assertion this is so?

I think an improvement is the people's ability to elect the people in charge of their police, military, economy, etc. Furthermore, I doubt someone would stay in office if they starved their politicians while their political party stayed in luxury or mass murdering over a million citizens.

spursncowboys
12-16-2009, 11:14 AM
An improvement for America is Iraq is no longer a sanction for terrorists. Iraq no longer has a dictator in charge of a huge amount of the world's oil, in which the OPEC loses more of their pricing power. Iraq no longer has a dictator who funds suicide bombers, terrorists, marxist* regimes. Iraq no longer has a ruler who tries to assasinate american diplomatic officials.

Nbadan
12-16-2009, 11:25 AM
An improvement for America is Iraq is no longer a sanction for terrorists. Iraq no longer has a dictator in charge of a huge amount of the world's oil, in which the OPEC loses more of their pricing power. Iraq no longer has a dictator who funds suicide bombers, terrorists, marxist* regimes. Iraq no longer has a ruler who tries to assasinate american diplomatic officials.

WTF. There are more terraist in Iraq now than there were under Saddam

mogrovejo
12-16-2009, 11:34 AM
No. You were the one crowing over temporary tactical gains.

Temporary tactical gains as opposed to what? An eternal perfect world?


That process has already begun.

Maybe on paper and speeches. When Obama sworn in there were 135,000 troops in Iraq, nowadays there are more than 130,000.


BTW, what improvements do you mean, and what evidence can you adduce that the improvements have been sustained to this day, besides your own naked assertion this is so?

Search for data about terrorist attacks and casualties pre and post-surge.

spursncowboys
12-16-2009, 11:39 AM
winehole is talking out of his ass with short term terminoloy. It is something he says to sound smart. The entire surge idea was for long term gains. Cleaning out all the terrorists hold points in baghdad and then having units there to hold it from terrorists coming back in. Starting from the center of baghdad and moving outward all the way to the north.

Winehole23
12-16-2009, 11:51 AM
Temporary tactical gains as opposed to what? An eternal perfect world? As opposed to the benchmarks for progress. You know, the strategic goals.


Search for data about terrorist attacks and casualties pre and post-surge.You can't very well demand other posters back up their claims if you do not deign to support your own.

Winehole23
12-16-2009, 11:52 AM
You're not real big on reciprocity, are you?

spursncowboys
12-16-2009, 12:00 PM
As opposed to the benchmarks for progress. You know, the strategic goals.

You can't very well demand other posters back up their claims if you do not deign to support your own.

He is giving you an answer to your question. You cannot just have information spoon fed to you. Common knowledge (first page of a google search) shouldn't be wasted in posts and should just be presumed known.

mogrovejo
12-16-2009, 12:08 PM
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/graphs/timeline.php

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/graphs/gunexec.php

Civilian casualties and deaths from gunfire. Source: anti-war organization IraqBodyCount.

Winehole23
12-16-2009, 12:21 PM
Those numbers are felicitous. What are the numbers for electricity and clean water? Safe schools? Displaced people?

Iraq faces sectarianism and secession. The governing power there is closer to Iran than at any time in recent history.

Tell me, mogrovejo, what did the US get for this wonderful war?

mogrovejo
12-16-2009, 12:32 PM
Those numbers are felicitous. What are the numbers for electricity and clean water? Safe schools? Displaced people?

Goal post shifting.

Search for data about terrorist attacks and casualties pre and post-surge.




You can't very well demand other posters back up their claims if you do not deign to support your own.

I don't care for those numbers by the way. As long as the situation is stable and acceptable in regards to safety and a withdrawn can't be seen as a military defeat, there's no rationale, from my point of view, to the presence of US military forces except residually.

Winehole23
12-16-2009, 12:36 PM
Goal post shifting. Context, my man. It's one big war. We were talking about conditions in Iraq, right?


I don't care for those numbers by the way. As long as the situation is stable and acceptable in regards to safety and a withdrawn can't be seen as a military defeat,mogrovejo sets the bar much lower than Bush...


there's no rationale, from my point of view, to the presence of US military forces except residually....and ends up resembling no one so much as Joe Biden. :lol

mogrovejo
12-16-2009, 12:41 PM
The difference between my position and Biden's is that I'd found withdrawing from Iraq in the pre-surge situation a totally unacceptable decision that could lead to dire consequences.

McCain articulates this point very well vis-a-vis the Vietnam War.

Winehole23
12-16-2009, 12:49 PM
The difference between my position and Biden's is that I'd found withdrawing from Iraq in the pre-surge situation a totally unacceptable decision that could lead to dire consequences.In the past, you've had your differences. I can believe that.

Winehole23
12-16-2009, 01:19 PM
Furthermore, I doubt someone would stay in office if they starved their politicians while their political party stayed in luxury or mass murdering over a million citizens.You never know. There's worse things in the world than Saddam. He was bad but he was the reliable counterweight to Tehran. Now US forces are that counterweight in Iraq.

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 03:18 PM
We'll hand Iraqis back their own country what, in 2011 at the earliest?

Really?

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 03:19 PM
WH23 is not so sanguine.

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 03:46 PM
Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki recently (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/08/bagdad-car-bombs-iraq)accused Syria of being responsible for the car bomb blasts which killed over 110 people, and injured hundreds more, in Baghdad on Tuesday. This is a repeat of the claims that he made following similar blasts in August and October, which also struck Iraqi government buildings in Baghdad.
Maliki raised eyebrows for previously pointing the finger at Syria, when the released evidence looked less than definitive.http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/12/10/maliki_blames_syria_for_iraq_chaos

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 03:47 PM
http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/Gates-Meets-with-Talabani-in-Baghdad-78980042.html

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 03:50 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5BF3BR20091216

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 03:52 PM
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jZB5SOE3JmBLclK-8z6D5CYCs8-Q

spursncowboys
12-17-2009, 03:58 PM
You never know. There's worse things in the world than Saddam. He was bad but he was the reliable counterweight to Tehran. Now US forces are that counterweight in Iraq.

So we let iran go to the radical fascist who run it to this day. Then to counter it, we have to allow a brutal dictator remain a nuclear power. The countering because we have a foreign policy. I have never read a post by you that writes positively about any kind of foreign policy that intervenes in anything.

spursncowboys
12-17-2009, 04:01 PM
The democrats said that weapons comiing from syria and iran are just the neocons way of going to war again. None of that is real wh. all war monger's march. Believing Petraus will take______. Oh I can't remember what H Clinton said. Ugh...to suspend belief. That's right.

ChumpDumper
12-17-2009, 04:02 PM
So we let iran go to the radical fascist who run it to this day. Then to counter it, we have to allow a brutal dictator remain a nuclear power.Which dictator is this?

mogrovejo
12-17-2009, 04:02 PM
Nah. Iran isn't a danger any more. Obama solved that months ago when he made concessions to Russia and China.

ChumpDumper
12-17-2009, 04:03 PM
The democrats said that weapons comiing from syria and iran are just the neocons way of going to war again. None of that is real wh. all war monger's march. Believing Petraus will take______. Oh I can't remember what H Clinton said. Ugh...to suspend belief. That's right.Is this just a stream of consciousness rant?

None of it made any sense.

ChumpDumper
12-17-2009, 04:04 PM
Nah. Iran isn't a danger any more. Obama solved that months ago when he made concessions to Russia and China.So what danger is Iran to the US?

spursncowboys
12-17-2009, 04:24 PM
So what danger is Iran to the US?

Do you need a count of american soldiers killed by iranian train, and funded terrorist or by their weapons?
Their proxy wars with us, our allies and disrupting that region?
Their developing nuclear weapons? For who exactly?

mogrovejo
12-17-2009, 04:27 PM
http://www.gallup.com/poll/124727/Americans-Oppose-Closing-Gitmo-Moving-Prisoners.aspx?CSTS=alert

PRINCETON, NJ -- Americans remain opposed to closing the Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba and moving some of the terrorist suspects being held there to U.S. prisons: 30% favor such actions, while 64% do not. These attitudes could present a significant roadblock for President Obama at a time when he seeks congressional approval to move terrorist suspects from Guantanamo to a converted state prison in northwestern Illinois.

ChumpDumper
12-17-2009, 04:27 PM
Do you need a count of american soldiers killed by iranian train, and funded terrorist or by their weapons? Do you have that number?

Their proxy wars with us, our allies and disrupting that region?Which wars are those? The only one I remember was the Iran-Iraq war, and the US was on both sides of that one.
Their developing nuclear weapons? For who exactly?You think they are for us?

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 04:27 PM
So we let iran go to the radical fascist who run it to this day. Pretty much. It's their deal. It's for them to figure out, not for us to bestow upon them.


The countering because we have a foreign policy. I have never read a post by you that writes positively about any kind of foreign policy that intervenes in anything.It's usually a bad idea. Not that Saddam didn't deserve it, but we didn't need to be the ones who did it, when we did it or in the way we did it.

I think something similar about Iran. It would be plainly counterproductive for us to attack Iran, unless of course, the whole strategy is to create a contiguous zone of war and instability that stretches from Pakistan to Iraq, as well as a welcome distraction for Americans angry about the banks, the insurance company, and the erstwhile broker-dealers who hijacked the US Congress last fall.

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 04:28 PM
http://www.landstad.com/PLE/central_asia_map.gif

mogrovejo
12-17-2009, 04:34 PM
ForumCop would have allowed the soviet totalitarians to place their missiles in La Habana. "None of our business". He also would have allowed the nazi totalitarians to conquer the entire continental Europe, including Russia, if he was Churchill. "None of our business", he'd say.

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 04:43 PM
ForumCop would have allowed the soviet totalitarians to place their missiles in La Habana. Poisoning the well.


He also would have allowed the nazi totalitarians to conquer the entire continental Europe, including Russia, if he was Churchill. "None of our business", he'd say.Reductio ad hitlerum.

Hilarious. Here you reveal yourself to be little distinguishable from such distinguished SpursTalk posters as WC, SnC, gtown and Darrin. All strawman, ad hominem and Hitler.

Nice work, mogrovejo. :tu

mogrovejo
12-17-2009, 04:53 PM
Poisoning the well.

Reductio ad hitlerum.

Hilarious. Here you reveal yourself to be little distinguishable from such distinguished SpursTalk posters as WC, SnC, gtown and Darrin. All strawman, ad hominem and Hitler.

Nice work, mogrovejo. :tu

Interesting posts. That's a lot of stuff to think about, ForumCop. Substantive theory.

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 05:03 PM
Interesting posts. That's a lot of stuff to think about, ForumCop. Substantive theory.Oh bosh, it's just a description.

mogrovejo
12-17-2009, 07:42 PM
Oh bosh, I can't really articulate my point of view about national security policies and military interventions on foreign soil so I'll just keep playing floral games instead.

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 07:45 PM
Floral games?

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 07:46 PM
English fluency is a bitch, isn't it mogro?

mogrovejo
12-17-2009, 07:57 PM
You don't know what floral games are?

spursncowboys
12-17-2009, 08:02 PM
Pretty much. It's their deal. It's for them to figure out, not for us to bestow upon them. It wasn't the majority of iranians who wanted that. Just like the majority of iraqis didn't want saddam.


It's usually a bad idea. Not that Saddam didn't deserve it, but we didn't need to be the ones who did it, when we did it or in the way we did it.

I think something similar about Iran. It would be plainly counterproductive for us to attack Iran, unless of course, the whole strategy is to create a contiguous zone of war and instability that stretches from Pakistan to Iraq, as well as a welcome distraction for Americans angry about the banks, the insurance company, and the erstwhile broker-dealers who hijacked the US Congress last fall.
What my point was you were making an argument for leaving saddam because it kept iran in check. Why does it matter who is in check or not, if you are not willing to do something for america's interest across the world? Because it is not our business. I think it is your belief that we are safe in america regardless of their positions.

ChumpDumper
12-17-2009, 08:22 PM
It wasn't the majority of iranians who wanted that. Just like the majority of iraqis didn't want saddam.Did the Iranians want the repressive dictator that we backed before the revolution? Did they want their democratically elected prime minister overthrown in a CIA operation so that dictator could come back to power?


I think it is your belief that we are safe in america regardless of their positions.I think we were quite safe from Iraq as it was under the thumb of our military.

spursncowboys
12-17-2009, 08:50 PM
Did the Iranians want the repressive dictator that we backed before the revolution? Did they want their democratically elected prime minister overthrown in a CIA operation so that dictator could come back to power?

I think we were quite safe from Iraq as it was under the thumb of our military.

I think you should do a little more googling about iran. Starting to sound like gga.
Also that last sentence makes absolutely no sense.

ChumpDumper
12-17-2009, 08:53 PM
I think you should do a little more googling about iran. Starting to sound like gga.With what are you taking issue?

Be specific.

Also that last sentence makes absolutely no sense.I think you should do a little more googling about Iraq. Starting to sound like SnC.

clambake
12-17-2009, 08:56 PM
maybe he's too young to remember the butcher.

spursncowboys
12-17-2009, 09:07 PM
Poisoning the well.

Reductio ad hitlerum.

Hilarious. Here you reveal yourself to be little distinguishable from such distinguished SpursTalk posters as WC, SnC, gtown and Darrin. All strawman, ad hominem and Hitler.

Nice work, mogrovejo. :tu

How is the comparison off? Was WW2 our business? This isn't a strawman.

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 09:17 PM
You don't know what floral games are?A shocking lacuna. Because it's only common knowledge that:


Floral Games were any of a series historically-related poetry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetry) contests with floral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floral) prizes. In Occitan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitan), their original language, and Catalan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language) they are known as Jocs florals (modern Occitan: Jòcs floraus). In French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language) they became the Jeux floraux. The original contests may have been inspired by the Roman Floralia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floralia) (Ludi Florensei) held in honour of Chloris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloris).
Forgive us, profe. We are not European.

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 09:19 PM
Poetry contests, knowledge about?

spursncowboys
12-17-2009, 11:17 PM
Did the Iranians want the repressive dictator that we backed before the revolution? Did they want their democratically elected prime minister overthrown in a CIA operation so that dictator could come back to power?

I think we were quite safe from Iraq as it was under the thumb of our military.
It must be good to live in this safe world where communist nations that nationalize oil fields in the height of the Cold War. Also just pay no attention to the declassified kgb papers that authenticate the notion of ussr working to allie with iran. Then you got the persians and arabs all becoming commies, and then all our oil being controlled by our enemies. Europe would have been just fine with all their oils controlled by enemies. We all know how well Japan fared by it.
Also do you have any facts that base the shah's political prisoners are even closely similar to the political prisoners killed in Iran this year alone?

So after the US used military force, then we were safe from Iraq. Way to keep your moron record maintained.

Finally how many Americans were killed by Iranians when the shah was in?

Ignignokt
12-17-2009, 11:24 PM
English fluency is a bitch, isn't it mogro?

No, just the one who expects to get a moron pass from it.

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 11:42 PM
Ho ho. Good one. After a decent interval, I'll steal it from you.

ChumpDumper
12-17-2009, 11:46 PM
It must be good to live in this safe world where communist nations that nationalize oil fields in the height of the Cold War. Also just pay no attention to the declassified kgb papers that authenticate the notion of ussr working to allie with iran. Then you got the persians and arabs all becoming commies, and then all our oil being controlled by our enemies. Europe would have been just fine with all their oils controlled by enemies. We all know how well Japan fared by it.Aw, you googled a little.

Which countries turned communist again?

None of them, you say?

Your attempted resurrection of the idea of the communist monolith is quaint.


Also do you have any facts that base the shah's political prisoners are even closely similar to the political prisoners killed in Iran this year alone?The shah reportedly had over 2000 political prisoners in 1978.

Who said this?


We must straighten out Iranians’ ranks. To do so, we divide them into two categories: those who believe in Monarchy, the constitution and the Six Bahman Revolution and those who don’t.... A person who does not enter the new political party and does not believe in the three cardinal principles will have only two choices. He is either an individual who belongs to an illegal organization, or is related to the outlawed Tudeh Party, or in other words a traitor. Such an individual belongs to an Iranian prison, or if he desires he can leave the country tomorrow, without even paying exit fees; he can go anywhere he likes, because he is not Iranian, he has no nation, and his activities are illegal and punishable according to the law.

How many political prisoners were killed in Iran this year? Give me some numbers.


So after the US used military force, then we were safe from Iraq. Way to keep your moron record maintained.We were never in danger from Iraq. That was the whole point.


Finally how many Americans were killed by Iranians when the shah was in?Well, had the US not invaded Iraq, they wouldn't have been killed by Iranians either.

Please tell me who which country is currently the greatest ally to Iraq's government in the region.

Hint:
http://www.middle-east-online.com/pictures/big/_21716_maliki-ahmadinejad.jpg

ChumpDumper
12-18-2009, 12:07 AM
Obviously there is some 20/20 hindsight in my views, but hey -- we all used to think that communist paratroopers would plausibly assault a south Colorado high school, right?

Ignignokt
12-18-2009, 12:10 AM
nice long post. But it doesn't take brilliance to see that the Iran-Russo alliance had more to do with oil control than communist expansion.

SnC pointed that out.a Now nobody knows what you're talking about half the time because you're not focused on understanding the point of the opponent but trying to find weak spots.

ChumpDumper
12-18-2009, 12:13 AM
nice long post. But it doesn't take brilliance to see that the Iran-Russo alliance had more to do with oil control than communist expansion.Whose control?

SnC said they all turned or would have turned communist. Let him speak for himself.


SnC pointed that out.a Now nobody knows what you're talking about half the time because you're not focused on understanding the point of the opponent but trying to find weak spots.We supported dictators and spilled blood for oil.

Sounds familiar; at least this time you admitted it. :toast

mookie2001
12-18-2009, 12:17 AM
Aw, you googled a little.

Which countries turned communist again?

None of them, you say?

Your attempted resurrection of the idea of the communist monolith is quaint.





hahaaahaha please hammer dont hurt em

ChumpDumper
12-18-2009, 12:17 AM
And yes, it's terribly easy to find weak points with you guys.

It's not my fault.

Winehole23
12-18-2009, 12:17 AM
we all used to think that communist paratroopers would plausibly assault a south Colorado high school, right?If you didn't piss your pants, you hate America.

spursncowboys
12-18-2009, 12:19 AM
hahaaahaha please hammer dont hurt em

take it easy on em
dont hurt em hammer

George Gervin's Afro
12-18-2009, 12:20 AM
It must be good to live in this safe world where communist nations that nationalize oil fields in the height of the Cold War. Also just pay no attention to the declassified kgb papers that authenticate the notion of ussr working to allie with iran. Then you got the persians and arabs all becoming commies, and then all our oil being controlled by our enemies. Europe would have been just fine with all their oils controlled by enemies. We all know how well Japan fared by it.
Also do you have any facts that base the shah's political prisoners are even closely similar to the political prisoners killed in Iran this year alone?

So after the US used military force, then we were safe from Iraq. Way to keep your moron record maintained.

Finally how many Americans were killed by Iranians when the shah was in?

I'm sorry, are you trying to give people lessons in geopolitics?:lmao

George Gervin's Afro
12-18-2009, 12:21 AM
nice long post. But it doesn't take brilliance to see that the Iran-Russo alliance had more to do with oil control than communist expansion.

SnC pointed that out.a Now nobody knows what you're talking about half the time because you're not focused on understanding the point of the opponent but trying to find weak spots.

solid arguments don't have weak spots

George Gervin's Afro
12-18-2009, 12:32 AM
An improvement for America is Iraq is no longer a sanction for terrorists. Iraq no longer has a dictator in charge of a huge amount of the world's oil, in which the OPEC loses more of their pricing power. Iraq no longer has a dictator who funds suicide bombers, terrorists, marxist* regimes. Iraq no longer has a ruler who tries to assasinate american diplomatic officials.

your stupidity knows no bounds. so i guess we stay forever..when do we invade the next bad guy state?

ChumpDumper
12-18-2009, 12:36 AM
Iraq is no longer a member of OPEC, SnC?

Please explain.

spursncowboys
12-18-2009, 12:38 AM
your stupidity knows no bounds. so i guess we stay forever..when do we invade the next bad guy state?

so liz cheney, does iran get to have a nuclear weapon?

spursncowboys
12-18-2009, 12:38 AM
Iraq is no longer a member of OPEC, SnC?

Please explain.

what?

George Gervin's Afro
12-18-2009, 12:39 AM
so liz cheney, does iran get to have a nuclear weapon?

Let's tell them not to. let's tell them we know whats best for them...lets be thre world policemen. in fact, we can give you a plastic badge and a clipboard! How about that skippy?

ChumpDumper
12-18-2009, 12:40 AM
I'll agree that nationalization movements are largely overreactions to past slights that usually effect more overreactions from without and more problems within.

Like US/UK sponsored coups d'etat. Problem is that Iranians have a long, long memory. Even those not crazy about the Islamic republic aren't automatically crazy about the US.

ChumpDumper
12-18-2009, 12:43 AM
what?
An improvement for America is Iraq is no longer a sanction for terrorists. Iraq no longer has a dictator in charge of a huge amount of the world's oil, in which the OPEC loses more of their pricing power. Iraq no longer has a dictator who funds suicide bombers, terrorists, marxist* regimes. Iraq no longer has a ruler who tries to assasinate american diplomatic officials.Please explain.

spursncowboys
12-18-2009, 09:55 AM
Let's tell them not to. let's tell them we know whats best for them...lets be thre world policemen. in fact, we can give you a plastic badge and a clipboard! How about that skippy?

We should fight countries from having weapons that might make us and our allies dangerous. Also the arms race that would be created in the middle east.

spursncowboys
12-18-2009, 10:07 AM
Please explain.

The more countries that sell their oil outside of OPEC's manipulated price will take away from OPEC's power. The more allies in opec the better. Right now OPEC's policy on lower demand is to jack up the price.

George Gervin's Afro
12-18-2009, 11:18 AM
We should fight countries from having weapons that might make us and our allies dangerous. Also the arms race that would be created in the middle east.

That could be 75% of the rest of the world. Do you intend to invade everyone to accomplish this?

Winehole23
12-18-2009, 11:28 AM
ON THE MEXICAN WAR



TO WILLIAM H. HERNDON.



WASHINGTON, February 15, 1848.



DEAR WILLIAM:--Your letter of the 29th January was received last night. Being exclusively a constitutional argument, I wish to submit some reflections upon it in the same spirit of kindness that I know actuates you. Let me first state what I understand to be your position. It is that if it shall become necessary to repel invasion, the President may, without violation of the Constitution, cross the line and invade the territory of another country, and that whether such necessity exists in any given case the President is the sole judge.



Before going further consider well whether this is or is not your position. If it is, it is a position that neither the President himself, nor any friend of his, so far as I know, has ever taken. Their only positions are--first, that the soil was ours when the hostilities commenced; and second, that whether it was rightfully ours or not, Congress had annexed it, and the President for that reason was bound to defend it; both of which are as clearly proved to be false in fact as you can prove that your house is mine. The soil was not ours, and Congress did not annex or attempt to annex it. But to return to your position. Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such purpose, and you allow him to make war at pleasure. Study to see if you can fix any limit to his power in this respect, after having given him so much as you propose. If to-day he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him,--"I see no probability of the British invading us"; but he will say to you, "Be silent: I see it, if you don't."


The provision of the Constitution giving the war making power to Congress was dictated, as I understand it, by the following reasons: kings had always been involving and impoverishing their people in wars, pretending generally, if not always, that the good of the people was the object. This our convention understood to be the most oppressive of all kingly oppressions, and they resolved to so frame the Constitution that no one man should hold the power of bringing this oppression upon us. But your view destroys the whole matter, and places our President where kings have always stood. Write soon again.



Yours truly,



A. LINCOLN.

Winehole23
12-18-2009, 12:49 PM
A. Lincoln's example as President was admittedly different.

ChumpDumper
12-18-2009, 04:22 PM
The more countries that sell their oil outside of OPEC's manipulated price will take away from OPEC's power. The more allies in opec the better. Right now OPEC's policy on lower demand is to jack up the price.What incentive does Iraq, as a member of OPEC, have to keep oil prices low for the US?

boutons_deux
12-18-2009, 05:11 PM
"Right now OPEC's policy on lower demand is to jack up the price."

also done when US$ is low, since they get paid in US$ by oil purchasers.

But last summer, when the oil was $140/barrel, the Saudis said they had oil to sell, but no buyers, so they claimed it wasn't tight supply that drove up the price.

commodity traders (eg, Wall St) play a significant (secret) role in oil (other commodities) price volatility. Just another way "free markets" and massive global liquidity flows fuck us all over.

Nbadan
12-19-2009, 12:08 AM
"Right now OPEC's policy on lower demand is to jack up the price."

also done when US$ is low, since they get paid in US$ by oil purchasers.

But last summer, when the oil was $140/barrel, the Saudis said they had oil to sell, but no buyers, so they claimed it wasn't tight supply that drove up the price.

commodity traders (eg, Wall St) play a significant (secret) role in oil (other commodities) price volatility. Just another way "free markets" and massive global liquidity flows fuck us all over.

That's exactly how speculators rigged the system...the Oil was sitting there, but it was a lower grade crude, which would have had the duel effect of raising production costs, while eventually lowering the price at the pump for consumers, i.e. profits...

spursncowboys
12-19-2009, 11:32 AM
What incentive does Iraq, as a member of OPEC, have to keep oil prices low for the US?
We are a huge consumer of their commidity. Furthermore, we have the oil to to ourselves and if political wind swing will start relying on our own oil, in which their demand will directly compete with russia's pipelines. Also there is no guarantee that iraq will stay with opec.

ChumpDumper
12-19-2009, 04:15 PM
We are a huge consumer of their commidity.High demand is actually incentive to raise prices.


Furthermore, we have the oil to to ourselves and if political wind swing will start relying on our own oil, in which their demand will directly compete with russia's pipelines.Who says we have the oil to ourselves?


Iraq has auctioned off more proven oil reserves in the past six months than are collectively held by the United States, Mexico, and the United Kingdom.

But U.S. oil companies have signed surprisingly few development contracts – foreign rivals have swooped in to scoop up major deals.

Take last weekend, when Iraq wrapped up the biggest oil-field auction in history. Major new deals were announced by Europe's Royal Dutch Shell PLC (NYSE: RDS.A , RDS.B), OAO Gazprom (OTC ADR: OGZPY), Lukoil (OTC ADR: LUKOY), China's China National Petroleum Corp. (CNPC), and Malaysia's Petroliam Nasional Berhad (Petronas).

The U.S. oil majors – ExxonMobil Corp. (NYSE: XOM), ConocoPhillips (NYSE: COP) and Chevron Corp. (NYSE: CVX) – were nowhere to be seen.

http://moneymorning.com/2009/12/16/iraq-oil-companies/

It's Iraq's oil to sell to the highest bidder. Their incentive is to get the most money for it.


Also there is no guarantee that iraq will stay with opec.That would be in neither Iraq's interest or ours really.

Winehole23
12-21-2009, 08:04 PM
So what danger is Iran to the US?There is a sizeable presence of US forces in their neighborhood.

Just guessing, this is what mogrovejo ostensibly means by suggesting that Iran is somehow a threat to the US.

Winehole23
12-22-2009, 05:40 AM
I have never read a post by you that writes positively about any kind of foreign policy that intervenes in anything.So?

Are you familiar with Taft Republicanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Taft)?

Why not let someone else fight, and come in afterward with trade and technical expertise?

Marcus Bryant
12-22-2009, 09:39 AM
Any foreign policy that doesn't begin and end with the Pentagon taking over a state = "isolationism" to many citizens.

spursncowboys
12-22-2009, 10:11 AM
So?

Are you familiar with Taft Republicanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Taft)?

Why not let someone else fight, and come in afterward with trade and technical expertise?

That sounds like a great idea. Not for all situation though. As in Greece after WW2, are you against that kind of involvement? Where we train the fighters? I don't think our foreign policy should end though with non-interventionism. The fact is that alot of our allies have not made weapons to protect themselves because of us. We cannot just leave them to the wolves. Are you even against selling weapons to our allies?

Winehole23
12-22-2009, 01:41 PM
Are you even against selling weapons to our allies?No.