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mogrovejo
12-16-2009, 03:16 PM
How little they know (http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2009/12/16/economics_101_how_little_they_know/)



HAS THE RECESSION ended?



Yes, says Larry Summers (http://blogs.abcnews.com/george/2009/12/summers-job-growth-by-spring.html), the president’s top economic adviser and a former secretary of the Treasury. He told ABC’s George Stephanopoulos on Sunday, “Everybody agrees that the recession is over.’’



No, says Christina Romer (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/12/13/romer_greenspan_romney_granholm_on_meet_the_press_ 99545.html), who heads the White House Council of Economic Advisers. The official definition may suggest that the economy has bottomed out, she said on NBC’s “Meet the Press,’’ but when moderator David Gregory pressed her on whether the recession is over, Romer replied: “Of course not . . . The people on Main Street . . . are still suffering. The unemployment rate is still 10 percent.’’


If the administration’s top economists can’t agree on something as fundamental as knowing when a recession has ended, how can they possibly be certain that they know how to end it?



Back in January, the incoming Obama administration warned that passing an immense “stimulus’’ package was an urgent priority if unemployment was to be held below 8 percent (http://otrans.3cdn.net/45593e8ecbd339d074_l3m6bt1te.pdf#page=5); without it, the economic team forecast, unemployment would climb as high as 9 percent. Congress gave the new president the stimulus he wanted - at $787 billion, it was the largest spending bill in US history - yet the share of the workforce without jobs rose well above the promised 8 percent. By November it had reached 10.2 percent (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=acha6mUkfV_8), the highest level since 1983, before dipping to 10 percent in December.



What do economists really know? Are their insights into the workings of a modern economy comparable to, say, the medical profession’s understanding of the intricacies of human health? Are economists’ grasp of the forces that drive the business cycle on a par with aerospace engineers’ grasp of the forces encountered by aircraft during flight? Perhaps no apples-to-apples comparison is possible. But consider: Medical science has conquered polio, tuberculosis, and smallpox; air travel is safer than ever. Yet economists still don’t know how to prevent recessions, or whether stock prices will go up or down, or whether it is possible to “stimulate’’ a $14 trillion economy without causing harm.



As the Obama administration’s senior economists were declaring the recession over/not over, Paul Samuelson, the first American to win the Nobel Prize in economics (http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economics/laureates/1970/samuelson-bio.html), died at 94. In a column published during an earlier crisis a decade ago, Samuelson suggested that modesty is appropriate when economists diagnose an ailing economy.



“What we know about the global financial crisis is that we don’t know very much,’’ (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost/access/40934965.html?dids=40934965:40934965&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Apr+28%2C+1999&author=Robert+J.+Samuelson&pub=The+Washington+Post&desc=Sunrise+--+Or+False+Dawn%3F&pqatl=google) he wrote. The formula for economic recovery was unclear, and it was worth remembering that “economics has never been a science.’’ In words as apt today as in 1999, Samuelson observed that officials trying to ease the economic distress were essentially winging it. “It would be reassuring and dramatic to declare that they had succeeded. But the duller truth is that we don’t know - and neither do they.’’



In testimony (http://www.mercatus.org/publication/job-market-and-great-recession) before the congressional Joint Economic Committee last week, George Mason University economist Russell Roberts made a similar point with regard to job creation and the stimulus. “There is no reliable way of knowing whether the stimulus package has averted a worse situation - or whether it’s part of the problem. There is no consensus in the economics profession on this question, and no empirical evidence that can settle the dispute.’’



Most people assume that fixing the economy is the government’s responsibility - that it needs to do something to get the unemployed back to work. “That may not be possible,’’ Roberts said. Government fixes have a habit of generating unintended and unfortunate consequences. Government intervention, far from dispelling economic anxiety, often exacerbates it. “Doing less might, paradoxically, be more successful than doing more.’’



Economics isn’t rocket science or any other hard science, and never will be. Human motivations, appetites, relationships, expectations - the raw stuff of economic life - cannot be perfectly modeled or reduced to an unvarying equation. Unlike the tides or electromagnetic waves or chlorophyll, human beings have free will. Men and women choose for themselves, and no economist or policymaker can ever know with perfect certainty what those choices will be. Roberts quoted Friedrich Hayek (http://mises.org/about/3234), another Nobel laureate (http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economics/laureates/1974/hayek-cv.html), who had that uncertainty in mind when he summarized the economist’s truest function:


“The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.’’




By Jeff Jacoby (http://search.boston.com/local/Search.do?s.sm.query=Jeff+Jacoby&camp=localsearch:on:byline:art)
Globe Columnist (http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2009/12/16/economics_101_how_little_they_know/)

Winehole23
12-16-2009, 03:26 PM
Economics isn’t rocket science or any other hard science, and never will be.This leapt out at me.

EmptyMan
12-16-2009, 03:55 PM
Both are giving a political answer, they just haven't agreed on the best political maneuver to appeal to their target Americans. :lol

Winehole23
12-16-2009, 04:04 PM
It's a point of guile to be two faced. One face or the other can usually be verified as genuine after the fact.

jack sommerset
12-16-2009, 04:28 PM
Too many jobless folks to say it is over.

Blake
12-16-2009, 04:40 PM
This leapt out at me.

How little Jeff Jacoby knows

Winehole23
12-16-2009, 04:45 PM
How little Jeff Jacoby knowsHow little I know.

I've seen the name. Boston Globe, right?

Who the eff is Jeff Jacoby?

Blake
12-16-2009, 04:48 PM
How little I know.

I've seen the name. Boston Globe, right?

Who the eff is Jeff Jacoby?

I don't really know. I saw his name at the bottom of the article.

EVAY
12-16-2009, 05:06 PM
Clearly, the Obama administration has not found the one-armed economist that Harry Truman kept looking for to no avail.

No decent politician in either party is going to claim that the recession is over as long as jobs are as bad as they are. But, Larry Summers, being an academic sort of ass, fails to understand that the metric assessment is not what regular folks are looking at.

Summers saying what he did reminds me of Phil Graham's comment last summer ('08) essentially saying that Americans were wusses for being nervous about the economy, that it was structurally very sound, blah, blah, blah. This was about 3 months before the bottom fell out.

mogrovejo
12-16-2009, 05:30 PM
How little Jeff Jacoby knows

Well, he's not the one trying to "fix the economy" using others people money.

Winehole23
12-16-2009, 05:38 PM
How else does one run a government?

mogrovejo
12-16-2009, 06:00 PM
How else does one run a government?

As Hayek recommends.

Winehole23
12-16-2009, 06:02 PM
As Hayek recommends.How's that?

mogrovejo
12-16-2009, 06:04 PM
How's that?

One of this days I'll make a short bibliography for Hayek as I did for Von Mises. :toast

Winehole23
12-16-2009, 06:12 PM
Knock on the door and run away.

We had a colorful expression for this, growing up in San Antonio, TX. It involves knocking. I only ever saw white kids doing it, but surely the pastime is more general than that.

Nbadan
12-16-2009, 08:18 PM
Back in January, the incoming Obama administration warned that passing an immense “stimulus’’ package was an urgent priority if unemployment was to be held below 8 percent; without it, the economic team forecast, unemployment would climb as high as 9 percent. Congress gave the new president the stimulus he wanted - at $787 billion, it was the largest spending bill in US history - yet the share of the workforce without jobs rose well above the promised 8 percent. By November it had reached 10.2 percent, the highest level since 1983, before dipping to 10 percent in December.

So 'the economic team' was wrong and Obama is too blame....is that your logic? So, Bush was to blame for 9/11 because his security team assured him that a warning entitled 'Osama intent to attack America' was just terrorist machismo? right?

ChumpDumper
12-16-2009, 09:34 PM
Too many jobless folks to say it is over.Depends on your definition of recession.

What is your definition of recession?

What is Jacoby's?

mogrovejo
12-16-2009, 10:05 PM
Knock on the door and run away.

We had a colorful expression for this, growing up in San Antonio, TX. It involves knocking. I only ever saw white kids doing it, but surely the pastime is more general than that.

I feel your pain, but I have work to do, classes to prepare, books to read... really don't have the time to write lectures on limited government, liberalism and the Austrian School in a message board. And it's not like that kind of in-depth, scholarly posting is the rule around here.

Nbadan
12-16-2009, 10:16 PM
....yet there are more than a few MBAs here..

mogrovejo
12-16-2009, 10:53 PM
So 'the economic team' was wrong and Obama is too blame....is that your logic? So, Bush was to blame for 9/11 because his security team assured him that a warning entitled 'Osama intent to attack America' was just terrorist machismo? right?

When exactly has Bush's security team, whatever that may be, assured him that a warning entitled "Osama intent to attack America" was just terrorist machismo? Do you have a link?

In any case, what's exactly the point you're trying to blame? That the administration was wrong but Obama doesn't deserve the blame? That Obama can do no wrong?

ChumpDumper
12-17-2009, 04:26 AM
I feel your pain, but I have work to do, classes to prepare, books to read... really don't have the time to write lectures on limited government, liberalism and the Austrian School in a message board. And it's not like that kind of in-depth, scholarly posting is the rule around here.What is your definition of recession?

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 04:30 AM
I feel your pain, but I have work to do, classes to prepare, books to read... really don't have the time to write lectures on limited government, liberalism and the Austrian School in a message board.A quick little nutshell would suffice, just to give us a correct idea of what you're talking about.

Have pity on us: your style is not pellucid, Maestro.

I call upon your magnanimity to forgive this message board for not being on exactly the same page as you, and for being somewhat less well acquainted with your own hobby horses than you are yourself; and to answer my legitimate request for clarification of your post, just as you demand others do from time to time.

You know, the reciprocity thing. If you don't do what you ask of others, you can lose it.

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 04:30 AM
What, are you rationing your words all of a sudden, mogrovejo?

MannyIsGod
12-17-2009, 05:19 AM
:lmao @ the "I don't have time excuse"

Because typing the excuse was so much faster.

As far as the OP, I stopped reading when the author took two quotes completely out of context in order to make it seem as though both economists disagree on the current political situation. All this from the same Mojogrovo who was so upset over Harry Reid's supposed lack of civility just a week ago?

Hilarious.

I think its plainly obvious to anyone with more than 2 objective brain cells that Larry Summers gave a technical economics answer while his counterpart gave a political answer. Yes, the recession is over. Yes, economic times are still very hard. Neither are exclusionary statements.

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 05:34 AM
Because typing the excuse was so much faster.Zapped.

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 05:35 AM
He'll say real life intruded, but it's a clear sidestep.

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 06:26 AM
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/29/47922503_184d537f49.jpg?v=0

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 06:42 AM
mogro clearly wanted us to to attempt to recap the homework he assigned to us in another thread, so he could criticize it authoritatively.

When asked to pose and answer the questions himself, mogro sometimes seems to falter a bit, as he did just upstream.

Maybe showing his own work is passe' for the profe.





At any rate, mogro has a very long list of citations that prove he is correct.

mogrovejo
12-17-2009, 10:58 AM
A quick little nutshell would suffice, just to give us a correct idea of what you're talking about.

Have pity on us: your style is not pellucid, Maestro.

I call upon your magnanimity to forgive this message board for not being on exactly the same page as you, and for being somewhat less well acquainted with your own hobby horses than you are yourself; and to answer my legitimate request for clarification of your post, just as you demand others do from time to time.

You know, the reciprocity thing. If you don't do what you ask of others, you can lose it.

Clarification from my post in a quick little nutshell? I didn't understand that's all you wanted. You asked what was the alternative to economic interventionism from the state, right? Well, it's non-interventionism. I thought you wanted me to expand on what non-interventionism, minimalist, classical liberalism style of government is. It's not the case then.

So, there's your answer, sorry for the misunderstanding.

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 11:01 AM
Well, it's non-interventionism. I thought you wanted me to expand on what non-interventionism, minimalist, classical liberalism style of government is.Thank you.

That's much clearer than a naked reference to Hayek.

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 11:08 AM
I didn't understand that's all you wanted.I don't believe I asked for any more.

If I start to comment on your understanding of what you think I want, I don't believe an infinite regress can be avoided. In the interest of crispness and topicality perhaps we can agree mutually to discuss it no more, eh? Of what possible interest could it be to anyone else?

mogrovejo
12-17-2009, 11:26 AM
Yeah, we can settle that the alternative to state interventionism is non-interventionism and that you were ignorant of that.

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 11:48 AM
Yeah, we can settle that the alternative to state interventionism is non-interventionism and that you were ignorant of that.Perhaps your post was less than completely clear at the time.

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 11:49 AM
Your prose style in English has, ahem, many infelicities, profe.

mogrovejo
12-17-2009, 11:50 AM
Perhaps your post was less than completely clear at the time.

Which post?

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 12:00 PM
You seem to count it a fault of intelligence that I did not read your mind, or finish your sentence for you. Perhaps a surfeit of self-regard led to this conclusion.

Perhaps you will respond to this post by quoting something you have already posted. Again.

I assure you, Sir, it would have been much easier to for me do so had you at some point finished clearing your throat and set about actually making your point.

mogrovejo
12-17-2009, 12:07 PM
You seem to count it a fault of intelligence that I did not read your mind, or finish your sentence for you. Perhaps a surfeit of self-regard led to this conclusion.

Perhaps you will respond to this post by quoting something you have already posted. Again.

I assure you, Sir, it would have been much easier to for me do so had you at some point finished clearing your throat and set about actually making your point.

Sure, sure. So, which post? Which post of mine was less than completely clear?

mogrovejo
12-17-2009, 04:07 PM
So, which post, ForumCop?

ChumpDumper
12-17-2009, 04:14 PM
So,
What is your definition of recession?

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 04:34 PM
Asked and answered, asshole. The naked reference to Hayek upstream.

mogrovejo
12-17-2009, 04:38 PM
Asked and answered, asshole. The naked reference to Hayek upstream.

Why are you resorting to high-school insults? Isn't that kind of childish?

I thought I had read texts posted by yourself with a variety of references to Hayek. You mean not only you were unable to figure out by yourself that one alternative to interventionism is non-interventionism, you've also posted stuff you don't understand? You had no idea what Hayek, broadly speaking, stood for?

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 04:57 PM
I thought I had read texts posted by yourself with a variety of references to Hayek. You mean not only you were unable to figure out by yourself that one alternative to interventionism is non-interventionism, you've also posted stuff you don't understand?Forgive me. My own familiarity with Hayek is passing. I believe I have previously characterized it as being glancing, slight. Is that ok with you?


You had no idea what Hayek, broadly speaking, stood for?Certainly I did. I just wanted to see what you would say for yourself. Given your pattern of sly and captious bantering, I was wary of being led into a trap. Can you blame me?

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 05:00 PM
Why are you resorting to high-school insults? Isn't that kind of childish? It's very irritating that you keep asking me to restate points I've already explicitly made.

It's the mr. magoo thing again. Obliviousness to circumstances.

TeyshaBlue
12-17-2009, 05:10 PM
I think it will be especially challenging to call this recession due to the role global economics is playing in this one. We could very well, classically, recover from this whilst continuing to post double digit unemployement figures which illustrates the disconnect between the stock market and the rate of unemployment. Apparently, the global economy is not as dependent on U.S. consumption as was believed. On the other hand, there is no question that the staggering quantity of government cheese that Bush and then Obama pumped into the U.S. economy and international bond markets helped to restore confidence in the global economy. What's significant is that the U.S. economy is not leading the global recovery any more.

Huge S&P mainliners like Coca Cola are able to pad their weak domestic numbers with increasing volume of sales overseas.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/22/business/22coke.html

mogrovejo
12-17-2009, 05:33 PM
Forgive me. My own familiarity with Hayek is passing. I believe I have previously characterized it as being glancing, slight. Is that ok with you?

Certainly I did. I just wanted to see what you would say for yourself. Given your pattern of sly and captious bantering, I was wary of being led into a trap. Can you blame me?

I see. So you're familiar with Hayek, the concepts of non-interventionism, minimal government, etc. Yet, you asked what was the alternative to a government where politicians use others people money to fix the economy. I'm puzzled. What prompted that question of yours?

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 06:00 PM
Which question? About the probable co-existence of socialism and capitalism?

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 06:05 PM
Sheer ornery insistence on reality, I guess.

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 06:07 PM
I live in the USA. Surely the USA is an example of what I was talking about.

mogrovejo
12-17-2009, 07:31 PM
This one:

How else does one run a government?

ChumpDumper
12-17-2009, 08:27 PM
Still no takers?
What is your definition of recession?

Winehole23
12-17-2009, 08:44 PM
Yes. Presumably with someone else's money. Good god. How else do governments run?

Presumably this was just as true when most revenue came from the US Customs House instead of income taxes.

jack sommerset
12-17-2009, 09:31 PM
Still no takers?

Is there any right answer?

ChumpDumper
12-17-2009, 09:33 PM
Is there any right answer?There are several answers. By some definitions, the recession is indeed over.

jack sommerset
12-17-2009, 09:38 PM
There are several answers. By some definitions, the recession is indeed over.

A significant decline in activity across the economy, lasting longer than a few months. It is visible in industrial production, employment, real income and wholesale-retail trade. I say we are still in it.

ChumpDumper
12-17-2009, 09:58 PM
That's quite vague. You would need to quantify each factor you describe so one can tell when we're in it and out of it.