Kobe's bogus and-1 ... the real reason the Lakers beat the Bucks

[jack0fspeed]

48 seconds left in OT, Bucks up by 4 and Kobe gets this and-1 call?� COME ON MAN!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2G6LymlDMk

[Capt Bringdown]

The Bucks should have reminded Kobe that he has a broken finger with hard fouls all night. Letting a player with a broken finger dump 39 points on you is a disgrace.

[lebomb]

Clearly a charge...........you cant spin into someone with your back and it not be. Oh well.

[TJastal]

LOL. Typical bs call by Stern's pitbull crew. Bring back the replacement refs already.

[ElNono]

Wrong forum.

[Mr.Robinson]

NBA Forum >>>>>>

[Xevious]

Looks like a superstar call... nothing new unfortunately.

[TJastal]

Looks like a superstar call... nothing new unfortunately.

lol superstar call my ass.

Not even Jordan, Magic, or Bird would have gotten that call back in the day. This type of shit just goes to show how filthy and corrupted the refs have become.

[phyzik]

Bogut was still moving his feet. Not a charge. Refs made the right call.

[dbestpro]

Bogut was still moving his feet. Not a charge. Refs made the right call.

Not when Kobe plowed into him. Bad call at a regular time in the game and bs call for that point in the game. There are always issues of integrity in the NBA when the Lakers play.

[4down]

well - at least they needed a game winner/OT to beat the Bucks...

[TJastal]

Bogut was still moving his feet. Not a charge. Refs made the right call.

See, this is one of those "judgement calls" that the refs love to use to play god.

The rules are ambigious on charges, but from what I've come to understand is that it doesn't matter whether the defensive player is moving his feet, if the offensive player lowers the shoulder and drives it into the defender, its an offensive foul regardless.

I gauran-fucking-tee you if the teams and situations are reversed its called a charge in the lakers' favor.

GUARAN-FUCKING-TEED.

[SpurCharger]

Horrible Call!!!! and the NBA Has The Nerve To say Refs Dont Decide or control Ball Games.... Im tired Of this Superstar Love the NBA Gives!

[4down]

See, this is one of those "judgement calls" that the refs love to use to play god.

The rules are ambigious on charges, but from what I've come to understand is that it doesn't matter whether the defensive player is moving his feet, if the offensive player lowers the shoulder and drives it into the defender, its an offensive foul regardless.

I gauran-fucking-tee you if the teams and situations are reversed its called a charge in the lakers' favor.

GUARAN-FUCKING-TEED.


true - refs always seem to use this type of discretion to benefit certain teams in the playoffs - I look at that and think no call - but if a player flops, in this case Bogut, a lot of times they blow the whistle and then punish a guy for the flop. It seems like many refs are dead set on calling fouls in those situations when no call is probbly more appropriate.

[TJastal]

true - refs always seem to use this type of discretion to benefit certain teams in the playoffs - I look at that and think no call - but if a player flops, in this case Bogut, a lot of times they blow the whistle and then punish a guy for the flop. It seems like many refs are dead set on calling fouls in those situations when no call is probbly more appropriate.

Flop? How do you get a flop out of that? Bryant was out of control and spun right into Bogut's chest.

[EricB]

Bogut was still moving his feet. Not a charge. Refs made the right call.


Except the refs cMe out last year And said feet or body moving has nothing to do with taking a charge, or it being a blocking foul..

[picc84]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEYwmLDyy-8

:wakeup

[Flux451]

TRAVEL!!!

who cares about the charge watch his feet

[namlook]

TRAVEL!!!

who cares about the charge watch his feet

There can't be a travel if a foul is called first.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Linda Cohen (sp?) on ESPN even said he got away with a travel and an offensive foul. Kobe gets the Jordan calls. Jordan got the Magic calls, and on it goes.

[picc84]

Holy shit LINDA COHEN SAID IT?!? :wow

Did she address why a kobe and-1 topic is on the main forum of a spurs board that should be celebrating another win over a horrible team?:lmao

[ffadicted]

The Bucks should have reminded Kobe that he has a broken finger with hard fouls all night. Letting a player with a broken finger dump 39 points on you is a disgrace.

This. When did NBA teams become such pussies :wakeup

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Holy shit LINDA COHEN SAID IT?!? :wow

Did she address why a kobe and-1 topic is on the main forum of a spurs board that should be celebrating another win over a horrible team?:lmao


She did, actually...right after she asked why a Lakers fan is hanging out on a Spurs message board.

[4down]

Flop? How do you get a flop out of that? Bryant was out of control and spun right into Bogut's chest.


Ah, I don't think he was out of control that much - I think Kobe was definitely trying to get into Boguts chest - I've just always understood it to be that late in a game contact has to be blatant - and smalls typically get away with putting their shoulders into big guys chests - especially Kobe. I think Bogut hurt his case by not standing his ground. I kinda saw a travel as well, but that is debatale - two steps were taken after Kobe picked up his dribble and then he jumped to take the shot after the foul.

Not saying it's the right thing, but just how I see it.

[Fabbs]

There can't be a travel if a foul is called first.
Then it can't be a continuation shot if he traveled, which he beyond obviously did. 4 steps, not just three.
Kobe=joke.

[picc84]

She did, actually...right after she asked why a Lakers fan is hanging out on a Spurs message board.

You didnt stick around? I was the next caller in, even convinced her to register when I said how fun it is to watch every spursfan melt down when an opposing team goes on a 6-0 run in the second quarter. Like a good movie. :downspin:

[namlook]

Look at Bogut shuffle his feet and then fly back like he was hit with a cannonball. Call it like it is:

Block and FLOP!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2G6LymlDMk

[Johnny RIngo]

Don't know why people are surprised by this. Even when the Lakers sucked, Kobe was still getting a ridiculous amount of calls in his favor(phantom foul vs the Jazz for example)

[austN Spur]

he spun into a double team while picking his dribble up from the free throw line. crazy

[lennyalderette]

this is whats shocking to me! all this news about bogus calls and how kobe was given rings, and they still dont slack off on their agenda!!!!! you know the only thing that can stop the lakers now is an injury. they have the leagues best players and officials rooting for them. unbelievable

[boutons_deux]

What's this about "not letting a foul call in the final seconds determine the winner?"

Brent got badly fouled by Fish in the elimination game, no call.

Those Lakers are really magic teflon.

[jack0fspeed]

Here's what gets me ...

This is overtime. Lakers down by 4. Ref sees a .... just for the sake of argument let's call it a 50/50 call.

How in the world do you call an and-1 on that?

I'm OK with blocking no shot, travel, charge, or no call. The and-1 is totally uneccessary and unfair.

[foodie2]

TRAVEL!!!

who cares about the charge watch his feet

Exactly. Four steps at least.

[siraulo23]

A blocking foul on Bogut, he was shuffling his feet
but the basket shouldnt have counted
Kobe took an extra step because of the colliosion

So the right call would be a blocking foul without counting the basket

[namlook]

What's this about "not letting a foul call in the final seconds determine the winner?"


They had to call something because Bogut flopped and fell down.


A blocking foul on Bogut, he was shuffling his feet
but the basket shouldnt have counted
Kobe took an extra step because of the colliosion

So the right call would be a blocking foul without counting the basket

It's very easy to miss a travel with a play happening that fast and the refs getting distracted by the contact and Bogut launching himself backwards. The refs end up watching Bgout instead of Kobe's feet. Ironically, Bogut trying to sell a call may have cost his team even more.

[jonnybravo]

The Bucks should have reminded Kobe that he has a broken finger with hard fouls all night. Letting a player with a broken finger dump 39 points on you is a disgrace.

Huh?

According to a lot of faggots, he doesn't have a broken finger. It's all dramatics.

[JustinJDW]

That was a travel and charge but who cares? Kobe always gets the BS calls and the Laker Homers just ignore it. Who cares though? This is the Spurs Forum.

[spurtech09]

refs favor the lakers

[Baseline]

Here's what gets me ...

This is overtime. Lakers down by 4. Ref sees a .... just for the sake of argument let's call it a 50/50 call.

How in the world do you call an and-1 on that?

I'm OK with blocking no shot, travel, charge, or no call. The and-1 is totally uneccessary and unfair.

Why the League chose an alleged rapist to be its Golden Boy is beyond me, but Bryant has gotten more calls over his career than Jordan ever dreamt of getting. This was yet another one, and it cost Milwaukee the game. Then again, the League doesn't care about the Milwaukee Bucks.

This is why I've always marveled at how the Spurs were able to win four titles. We all know they NEVER got the benefit of calls down the stretch. In order to beat the Lakers and the refs, you have to play nearly flawless basketball and hit a very high percentage of your open shots. The one thing the refs can't control is open shotmaking. Shots in traffic they can control, and they can put guys like Bryant on the line even when the entire human race knows it's a bogus call. We've seen it about 95,000 times since Bryant came into the league.

The League is already shamed, but it should really be ashamed of itself over this game last night. Trouble is, it happens so often that NOBODY is surprised by it. As soon as the call was made, even Laker announcer Joel Meyers said, "It's called a block! Ooh...the Lakers catch a break on the road."

Whatever comes out of Stern's mouth is complete lip service. Nothing has changed in this league.

[HarlemHeat37]

It was a clear travel and IF it was a blocking foul, clearly not continuation..

The entire game was officiated poorly, as usual for Laker games..it's sad that the NBA treats us like idiots and doesn't even try to hide it..

[gm5k]

gotta love Spurs fans complaining about traveling while we've been benefiting from Manu's traveling escapades for years :lol

that was a tough call for the officials. I think the right call would have been a block on bogut without the and-1, but I have trouble faulting the refs for the call that was made. much worse continuation calls are made all the time.

[mogrovejo]

Where in the rule book says that a defender must have his feet set to get the charge? This "ah, his foot was moving, blocking foul" is one of the most persistent myths in the basketball world. Get a grip.

[YoMamaIsCallin]

Yikes. Glad y'all aren't refs.

This isn't even close. Foul on Bogut.

Holy crap you even have a slo mo replay that validates it.

Look, I'm not a Kobe or Lakers fan, but facts is facts.

Look, you can't be moving into a player's path when he goes up for the shot, even if the player hits you rather than the other way around, it's still a foul on you.

You can be moving, but not laterally.

I'll give you that there might be a little extra step in there and technically that could have been a travel -- but it was after the bump and so worst case it'd disallow the field goal. I never see NBA refs call that, superstar or not, unless it's blatant.

[Fabbs]

mods, could this stench on Kome please be moved where it belongs -NBA Forum.

[UnWantedTheory]

Damn people...trying to be objective...blah blah blah...that late into the game with what actually happened=terrible call. Nothing new...its not just the Lakers, the Refs are just ugly this year. That was an obvious travel and a 50/50 blocking call despite the semi lift of his foot and lean of his body. They should have just let it go or just call the block with no continuation. It was an ugly call but I have seen worse this year. Its Kobe,...he is "suppose to get those calls"....blah blah blah.

[phyzik]

I hate Kome Cryant as much as the next person, but that was a legit call. It could have gone either way.

Quit being Spurs Homers/Laker haters and look at it objectively.

It was questionable but there's no definitive proof that it was a bad call.

[UnWantedTheory]

Yikes. Glad y'all aren't refs.

This isn't even close. Foul on Bogut.

Holy crap you even have a slo mo replay that validates it.

Look, I'm not a Kobe or Lakers fan, but facts is facts.

Look, you can't be moving into a player's path when he goes up for the shot, even if the player hits you rather than the other way around, it's still a foul on you.

You can be moving, but not laterally.

I'll give you that there might be a little extra step in there and technically that could have been a travel -- but it was after the bump and so worst case it'd disallow the field goal. I never see NBA refs call that, superstar or not, unless it's blatant.

Kobe lowered his shoulder into him and another player forcing the play...it wasnt as if Bogut ran into the lane...He was there. He shifted his body and his foot slightly...yes...And Kobe did travel. It was late in the game and it shouldnt have been called like that. Fouls are determined like this all of the time. Its called letting them play. The bad thing is the Refs just decide when to let them play and when not to. This time it cost the Bucks a game. Its nothing new and will not go away, but dont make excuses for a 50/50 call that could go either way and shouldnt have gone to either. IMO of course. :)

[UnWantedTheory]

Its just caca.

[HarlemHeat37]

You know it's a bad call when Kobe's fans on ESPN television actually come out and say it's a bad call..

[raspsa]

I think its great that once in a while Spurs fans expend their energy criiticizing people aside from th Spurs.

[DieMrBond]

You'd think Spurs fan's would know this rule after a certain play... (although I will admit its a close call)

http://www.bobrosato.com/content/photos/HN9X3281-01.jpg

[mystargtr34]

You'd think Spurs fan's would know this rule after a certain play... (although I will admit its a close call)

http://www.bobrosato.com/content/photos/HN9X3281-01.jpg

Are you comparing the two plays? I dont think theres any comparison. Kobe spun, and barreled through Bogut with his shoulder, and then put the ball up after traveling. It was two motions. I thought it was an easy call, quite clear - Bogut was there for an eternity it seemed. If that was Michael Redd barreling through Pau Gasol on the other end, all three referees would have blown their whistle simultaneously. And for what its worth, i have no problem with superstars getting the benefit of the doubt of a close call - but that was a 100% charge, and a 100% travel.

Horry on the other hand, that one could have gone either way - or three ways, a no call, block or charge. The key on that play was that he didnt make contact with the center of Hamilton's chest - he made contact on the side, which is grounds for a no call.

[TJastal]

You know it's a bad call when Kobe's fans on ESPN television actually come out and say it's a bad call..

Laker fans are a pathetic lot, but what's even worse are the spurs fans in this thread actually trying to justify this as not a charge when Kobe clearly lowered the shoulder and plowed right into Bogut.

As I said before, there is no doubt whatsoever... NONE... if the teams were reversed this would have been an offensive foul on the bucks.

[DieMrBond]

Are you comparing the two plays? I dont think theres any comparison. Kobe spun, and barreled through Bogut with his shoulder, and then put the ball up after traveling. It was two motions. I thought it was an easy call, quite clear - Bogut was there for an eternity it seemed. If that was Michael Redd barreling through Pau Gasol on the other end, all three referees would have blown their whistle simultaneously. And for what its worth, i have no problem with superstars getting the benefit of the doubt of a close call - but that was a 100% charge, and a 100% travel.

Horry on the other hand, that one could have gone either way - or three ways, a no call, block or charge. The key on that play was that he didnt make contact with the center of Hamilton's chest - he made contact on the side, which is grounds for a no call.

I know the plays were different, but the little details relating to the blocking foul are the same... feet still moving, body not quite set.

Blocking foul.

[HarlemHeat37]

Completely different scenarios..

Horry was already in the air when Hamilton slid under him, that will be called a block 10 times out of 10..

[TJastal]

I know the plays were different, but the little details relating to the blocking foul are the same... feet still moving, body not quite set.

Blocking foul.

How many times does it have to be said .. the feet do not need to be completely set for there to be a charge.

[Fabbs]

mods, could this stench on Kome please be moved where it belongs -NBA Forum.
Get this thread off the Spurs forum. I'm not gonna ask you again.

[Allanon]

From the ESPN replays, it looked like a charge.

But from this video, you can see Bogut still shuffling to get in front of Kobe (18 seconds in, Bogut is still trying to get position).

You can move and draw a charge, but only if you're moving parallel with the other player; not perpendicularly like Bogut was.

mEYwmLDyy-8

[TJastal]

From the ESPN replays, it looked like a charge.

But from this video, you can see Bogut still shuffling to get in front of Kobe (18 seconds in, Bogut is still trying to get position).

You can move and draw a charge, but only if you're moving parallel with the other player; not perpendicularly like Bogut was.

mEYwmLDyy-8

Well, sorry to disagree with you, but it looks like Bogut is moving at an angle with Bryant after he spins (parallel). It's somewhere in between paralell and perpendicular.

Are you positive that's how the refs are supposed to look at it? Let's have proof if you have any. :blah

All I know is I've seen hundreds of collisions just like this one and 99% of them are always called charges. That's really all the proof I need.

[noob cake]

1) It was a travel (4 steps)
2) It was a charge (ramming someone with your back is a automatic charge)
3) It was a semi-flop (because flopping is justified when you are really fouled)

[YoMamaIsCallin]

1) It was a travel (4 steps)
2) It was a charge (ramming someone with your back is a automatic charge)
3) It was a semi-flop (because flopping is justified when you are really fouled)

1) if there was a travel, it was a 3rd step not a 4th, and it was after the bump. So worst case it's no made basket, a foul, and 2 free throws.

2) ummm... what? You're making that up. The fact that it's his back makes no difference to whether it's a block or a charge.

3) I absolutely agree that just because the defender flops doesn't mean it's not a foul. However in this case I believe it was a foul on the defender.

[TJastal]

1) if there was a travel, it won't be called because it was Kome Bryant, who is secretly my idol. Shhh!!! So worst case it's no made basket, a foul, and 2 free throws.

2) ummm... what? You're making that up. The fact that it's a bucks player trying to take a charge on a laker player makes all the difference to whether it's a block or a charge.

3) I absolutely agree that just because the defender flops doesn't mean it's not a foul. I mean, who does he think he is, Derek Fisher? Of course in this case I believe it was a foul on the defender, only lakers should be allowed to flop and get a call

[Allanon]

Well, sorry to disagree with you, but it looks like Bogut is moving at an angle with Bryant after he spins (parallel). It's somewhere in between paralell and perpendicular.

There's nothing wrong with disagreement, that's why we're here to talk this stuff over. :lol



All I know is I've seen hundreds of collisions just like this one and 99% of them are always called charges. That's really all the proof I need.

Show me ANY legit charge call while the defender is still moving perpendicular to the the other player. These perpendicular charges are only called when the defender has established his feet.

If Bogut didn't shuffle his feet, it would have been a charge. But Bogut was still moving. If you allow a moving player to draw a charge at a perpendicular angle, there would never be such thing as a charge.

You'll see that charges are only called in favor of "in-motion/not set" defending players when they are parallel with the other guy who jumps into them.

[iggypop123]

i think also refs tend to avoid giving charges to bigs cause 7 footers arent supposed to do instead of guards who routinely do it. that probably played a role

[TDMVPDPOY]

this guys a fkn tool, just like that PP from celtics, fake injury to make him look good playing through injury...fkn trying to pull a jordan epic performance or someshit...

[TJastal]

There's nothing wrong with disagreement, that's why we're here to talk this stuff over. :lol



Show me ANY legit charge call while the defender is still moving perpendicular to the the other player. These perpendicular charges are only called when the defender has established his feet.

If Bogut didn't shuffle his feet, it would have been a charge. But Bogut was still moving. If you allow a moving player to draw a charge at a perpendicular angle, there would never be such thing as a charge.

You'll see that charges are only called in favor of "in-motion/not set" defending players when they are parallel with the other guy who jumps into them.

To reiterate what I stated earlier: It looks like Bogut was sliding at an angle along with Kobe, who had spun 3/4 of a circle (without dribbling of course) and was coming in at an angle himself, not straight at the basket.

So both players were moving in a semi-parallel line together. It was not a perpendicular impact, and it's easy to see afterward Kobe's out of control momentum carries him through Bogut's vacated space.

[Allanon]

To reiterate what I stated earlier: It looks like Bogut was sliding at an angle along with Kobe, who had spun 3/4 of a circle (without dribbling of course) and was coming in at an angle himself, not straight at the basket.

So both players were moving in a semi-parallel line together. It was not a perpendicular impact, and it's easy to see afterward Kobe's out of control momentum carries him through Bogut's vacated space.

To be honest, this isn't really worth arguing about. :lol