Who Killed Kurt Cobain?

[Red Hawk #21]

Hey folks, I just started listening to Nirvana recently and I didn't know anything about them. I was pretty much a toddler while those guys were popular. I googled them and I found out that their lead singer Kurt Cobain was found dead in 94. I have been lurking around websites, some folks seem to think he killed himself, and some seem to think Courtney love killed him and some think there was some kind of conspiracy to kill him. I don't understand why anyone would want to kill the guy though, I don't think he was a jerk or his music hurt anyone. Can someone give some opinions and thoughts on this topic? Im really interested, and Im sure there Nirvana fans around these parts.

[Jacob1983]

I always thought he shot himself and died. I also believe there was a suicide tape and/or note.

[CosmicCowboy]

He swallowed a shotgun. It was apparently pretty clear that it was suicide.

[Sancha]

That vato that killed Kennedy got him too.

[Red Hawk #21]

http://www.cobaincase.com/

Did you guys check out this site, it has a lot of info on his death. But this site is made for the conspiracy theorists, I guess.

[DisAsTerBot]

it's basically a conspiracy theory. Haven't read about it an a loooong time, but i remember some of the points being that he supposedly had more heroin in his body that he wouldnt be able to lift the shotgun....also something about the last few lines of the suicide note were in different penmanship and were also the only lines that referenced suicide.

[DisAsTerBot]

in semi-related news : frances bean cobain just got a restraining order against courtney love, who just lost custody of her.

[Red Hawk #21]

I don't know much yet but the things that amaze me are, 1: If he had such a high amount of Heroin in his system he would NOT have been able to shoot himself.
2: If someone injected him with the heroin, why would they shoot him after?!
It just doesn't make any sense, but I don't think he killed himself. I wonder if there's something the Cops or Courtney Love left out...

[DisAsTerBot]

I don't know much yet but the things that amaze me are, 1: If he had such a high amount of Heroin in his system he would NOT have been able to shoot himself.
2: If someone injected him with the heroin, why would they shoot him after?!
It just doesn't make any sense, but I don't think he killed himself. I wonder if there's something the Cops or Courtney Love left out...

to #2 : to stage a suicide ???

[BacktoBasics]

He swallowed a shotgun. It was apparently pretty clear that it was suicide.There are a lot of variables beyond just swallowing a shotgun. Some of the facts are pretty profound. The suicide letter was awfully inconsistent with his handwriting. The reach on the shotgun didn't quite add up. The amount of heroin in his system was well beyond a level of a person remaining in control and conscious. Its been awhile since I've read anything but there were quite a bit more curious bits of info floating around.

He probably did kill himself but there was a ton of evidence that showed otherwise. More so than your typical conspiracy theory.

[Sancha]

Rock and roll killed him.

[Red Hawk #21]

http://www.justiceforkurt.com/investigation/reasons.shtml

"According to the police report, there were no "legible" fingerprints on the shotgun (which some sources say indicate the gun had been wiped or cleaned), none on the pen found with the "suicide" note, or the box of shotgun shells found beside Kurt. How can you write a note, load up a shotgun with 3 shells, and shoot yourself without leaving any fingerprints on anything?"

[Dr. Gonzo]

Who gives a shit who killed him? Just be glad he's dead and can't put out anymore shit music.

[DisAsTerBot]

Who gives a shit who killed him? Just be glad he's dead and can't put out anymore shit music.

atari teenage riot

[Red Hawk #21]

to #2 : to stage a suicide ???

Then the person must have been a moron, because he/she should have known that its impossible for someone who had an absurd amount of heroin in his bloodstrem to pick up a gun and shoot himself. Whoever killed him didn't calculate correctly...

[Thunder Dan]

there is a documentary on youtube about Cobain's last days that is very fascinating, you should watch it

[DisAsTerBot]

Then the person must have been a moron, because he/she should have known that its impossible for someone who had an absurd amount of heroin in his bloodstrem to pick up a gun and shoot himself. Whoever killed him didn't calculate correctly...

well, i never pictured some criminal mastermind. I think it was more like, police see a dead rock star with a bad drug habit. Looks like a suicide. Case closed.

[Dr. Gonzo]

atari teenage riot

barry manilow

[DisAsTerBot]

barry manilow

neil diamond

[Dr. Gonzo]

neil diamond

Julio Iglesias

[koriwhat]

who cares!? dude sucked... best song they ever did was that david bowie cover.

[DisAsTerBot]

Julio Iglesias

shhhiiiiiiiiit.

[Dr. Gonzo]

shhhiiiiiiiiit.

http://www.topnews.in/files/Julio-Iglesias3.jpg

[DisAsTerBot]

http://www.topnews.in/files/Julio-Iglesias3.jpg

im hypnotized.....can't. stop. staring. into. eyes.

[Red Hawk #21]

well, i never pictured some criminal mastermind. I think it was more like, police see a dead rock star with a bad drug habit. Looks like a suicide. Case closed.

Yeah, I understand exactly what you mean. This person must have been a true fool, if the person had just injected Cobain with the heroin and left, it would have looked like a suicide or bad judgement from Cobain that caused his death. The decision to actually shoot him after fucked up the whole coverup for a "Suicide".

[Thunder Dan]

who cares!? dude sucked... best song they ever did was that david bowie cover.

they had some good shit. The band is overrated but they didn't suck

[I. Hustle]

Yeah, I understand exactly what you mean. This person must have been a true fool, if the person had just injected Cobain with the heroin and left, it would have looked like a suicide or bad judgement from Cobain that caused his death. The decision to actually shoot him after fucked up the whole coverup for a "Suicide".

Exactly. They'll never get away with it. Oh wait...

[Red Hawk #21]

Ok, I've been checking out some more sites. Here's my question: How the hell did Courtney Love not go to jail for this?! Not that she directly killed him, but It does not seem far-fetched that she had him killed...

[DisAsTerBot]

Ok, I've been checking out some more sites. Here's my question: How the hell did Courtney Love not go to jail for this?! Not that she directly killed him, but It does not seem far-fetched that she had him killed...

there was some shady dude with the stage name of "el duce" errr something that said he was approached by courtney to kill kurt. He's on some documentary talking about it. A few days later he was hit by a train i believe.

[mookie2001]

^you suck, evidence maybe

can you google and find out what really happened in the gulf of tonkin in 1964?

[Red Hawk #21]

there was some shady dude with the stage name of "el duce" errr something that said he was approached by courtney to kill kurt. He's on some documentary talking about it. A few days later he was hit by a train i believe.

You mean "Hit by a train", I think he was actually killed to prevent the truth from getting out. I doubt that he actually knew who killed Cobain, but probably had some info that would have helped to bring about a breakthrough in the case. This is why he was killed imho.

[thispego]

of all the things we are lied to about, you're wrapped up in this?

Cobain was mentally unstable for years before his death and probably would not have made it much longer anyways if he had not died that day. He was severly depressed and courtney love may have killed him, but not with her own hands or by hiring hands to do it but by being a CRAZY FUCKING BITCH that drove him over the edge. Talk about combing two destructive personalities. They couldn't have been more wrong for each other, but sometimes, that's the one you love the most.

[I. Hustle]

You mean "Hit by a train", I think he was actually killed to prevent the truth from getting out. I doubt that he actually knew who killed Cobain, but probably had some info that would have helped to bring about a breakthrough in the case. This is why he was killed imho.

Why would Atrain hit him? Wasn't he a little youngster when Cobain died?

[BacktoBasics]

of all the things we are lied to about, you're wrapped up in this?

All these years later its still interesting. Also if the OP is young this is probably all new to him. He wasn't overexposed to this garbage like we were.

[thispego]

Why would Atrain hit him? Wasn't he a little youngster when Cobain died?

perfectly executed retard humor

[Red Hawk #21]

Burned the letter? Yes
Destroyed the gun? Yes
Had Cobain's body cremated? Yes
All of these signs prove that Courtney Love probably had a hand in this dudes murder. What an evil bitch...

[thispego]

All these years later its still interesting. Also if the OP is young this is probably all new to him. He wasn't overexposed to this garbage like we were.

I wasn't really overexposed to it either. I wasn't really a fan of that kind of music at the time and didnt have cable mtv so i didnt have kurt loder updating me of the goings-on every 15 minutes. But i've seen and read the biographies. It's interesting and a bit eye-brow raising but this is pretty run-of-the mill conspiracy theorizing. Really it's no different from any other murder mystery/questionable suicide whatever

[thispego]

Burned the letter? Yes
Destroyed the gun? Yes
Had Cobain's body cremated? Yes
All of these signs prove that Courtney Love probably had a hand in this dudes murder. What an evil bitch...

sorry, kid, but you really don't know what you are talking about

[Suicidal Jack]

They couldn't have been more wrong for each other, but sometimes, that's the one you love the most.

Amen to that. :depressed

[Greg Oden]

they had some good shit. The band is overrated but they didn't suck

:tu :tu

btw can you post that documentary you are talking about, i can't find it.

[Red Hawk #21]

sorry, kid, but you really don't know what you are talking about

I probably shouldn't believe everything I read on websites. But here is what I saw : http://www.theharbinger.org/xvii/990504/james.html the guy says that Courtney Love had Cobain's body cremated shortly after his death, she had the murder weapon destroyed and I read on another website that she burned a letter written previously by Cobain.

[In10se]

Really, this is so last millenium's news I don't know why anyone talks about it now. Whoever did it got away if he didn't kill himself, and since that person is a criminal they probably got killed somewhere between then and now anyway.

I heard Jayne Mansfield died in a car crash under suspicious circumstances, let's investigate that one.

Or how about Jesus? Who actually drove the spiteful spear that killed him?

[BacktoBasics]

sorry, kid, but you really don't know what you are talking aboutHis list isn't disputed. So what exactly does he not "know about".

[mrsmaalox]

Someone should have killed Courtney Love as well.

[BacktoBasics]

Really, this is so last millenium's news I don't know why anyone talks about it now. Whoever did it got away if he didn't kill himself, and since that person is a criminal they probably got killed somewhere between then and now anyway.

I heard Jayne Mansfield died in a car crash under suspicious circumstances, let's investigate that one.

Or how about Jesus? Who actually drove the spiteful spear that killed him?Complaining about voluntarily reading a thread is probably more "last millennium".

Its shitty weather and I'm slow. I find the whole thing very interesting and its done a sufficient job killing an hour or two of my boring day.

[mookie2001]

if cobain wouldnt have died he would probably be doing iphone commericals, super bowl halftime shows and dancing with the stars by now anyway

[DisAsTerBot]

if cobain wouldnt have died he would probably be doing iphone commericals, super bowl halftime shows and dancing with the stars by now anyway

true. he loved the attention. :rolleyes

[Sancha]

I wasn't really overexposed to it either. I wasn't really a fan of that kind of music at the time and didnt have cable mtv so i didnt have kurt loder updating me of the goings-on every 15 minutes. But i've seen and read the biographies. It's interesting and a bit eye-brow raising but this is pretty run-of-the mill conspiracy theorizing. Really it's no different from any other murder mystery/questionable suicide whatever


Was there a regular network MTV or some shit? I missed out on that one.

[mookie2001]

true his music really turned out to be timeless, and a lot of musicians really follow up late in their careers after huge commercial albums like nevermind and in utero

[Lee Harvey Oswald]

That vato that killed Kennedy got him too.

Keep me out of this you stupid whore.

[thispego]

I probably shouldn't believe everything I read on websites. But here is what I saw : http://www.theharbinger.org/xvii/990504/james.html the guy says that Courtney Love had Cobain's body cremated shortly after his death, she had the murder weapon destroyed and I read on another website that she burned a letter written previously by Cobain.

Yeah, but she is crazy, doesn't mean she had anythign to do with it. Plus if you saw how she acted afterwards, it was as genuine as it gets, she is NOT that good a actor.

[Greg Oden]

who would guess mookie2001 would be scoffing Cobain?

[In10se]

Complaining about voluntarily reading a thread is probably more "last millennium".

Its shitty weather and I'm slow. I find the whole thing very interesting and its done a sufficient job killing an hour or two of my boring day.

Not really complaining just seems like a weird thing to be obsessive over NOW.

But, if helped you and others stave off boredom then I endorse it, I'm glad it's helped you out and sparked your interest. Carry on.

[thispego]

His list isn't disputed. So what exactly does he not "know about".


All of these signs prove that Courtney Love probably had a hand in this dudes murder. What an evil bitch...


:wakeup

[DisAsTerBot]

true his music really turned out to be timeless, and a lot of musicians really follow up late in their careers after huge commercial albums like nevermind and in utero

follow up what?

[Red Hawk #21]

I think it has to be Courtney Love imho, I just can't see any reason why someone would want to kill this dude. Did Cobain have any major enemies or something like that?

[In10se]

All of these signs prove that Courtney Love probably had a hand in this dudes murder. What an evil bitch...

:wakeup

He did say "probably". It's reasonable to say those signs prove she probably had something to do with it.

[thispego]

Was there a regular network MTV or some shit? I missed out on that one.

cable/mtv, hoe

[mookie2001]

follow up with more good music that sells

[Red Hawk #21]

:wakeup

Ok, they don't "prove" anything but it is kinda of supicious in my eyes. When a prime suspect in a crime is destroying evidence left and right, doesn't that usually mean something?!

[In10se]

I think it has to be Courtney Love imho, I just can't see any reason why someone would want to kill this dude. Did Cobain have any major enemies or something like that?

Eddie Vedder

[lefty]

Listening to Pearl Jam, that's what killed him

[DisAsTerBot]

follow up with more good music that sells

unplugged was after in utero. then he died. good argument.

[thispego]

I think it has to be Courtney Love imho, I just can't see any reason why someone would want to kill this dude. Did Cobain have any major enemies or something like that?

it's not a possibility, in your mind, that it was a suicide?

[DisAsTerBot]

Eddie Vedder

:lol

[z0sa]

Who gives a shit who killed him? Just be glad he's dead and can't put out anymore shit music.

Agreed. Nirvana is the #1 most overrated rock group ever. Right behind Metallica and Guns N Roses.

[thispego]

Ok, they don't "prove" anything but it is kinda of supicious in my eyes. When a prime suspect in a crime is destroying evidence left and right, doesn't that usually mean something?!

well the police had a chance to analyze the shotgun and perform an autopsy before she had them destroyed and cremated. What else was she trying to hide? The cops had already done evrything they could with the evidence

[mookie2001]

who would guess mookie2001 would be scoffing Cobain?
when did i scoff him? by guessing he would have sold out?

thunder dan would have guessed

i liked nirvana when i was 10 or 12, it is pretty telling though 13-18 years later and his music hasnt stood the test of (a very short) time

[Greg Oden]

Agreed. Nirvana is the #1 most overrated rock group ever. Right behind Metallica and Guns N Roses.

Says the guy who admittedly likes Kiss.

And how can you be #1 when you're right behind 2 other groups? Dumbfuck.

[Dr. Gonzo]

true. he loved the attention. :rolleyes

He had to have loved the attention. If he didn't want success then he should have just made music with his friends and never signed with a major label.

[mookie2001]

unplugged was after in utero. then he died. good argument.
rofl less than a year and a live greatest hits album, real good argument

[DisAsTerBot]

Agreed. Nirvana is the #1 most overrated rock group ever. Right behind Metallica and Guns N Roses.

the reason they're "overrated" is beacuse they were the band that changed mainstream rock of the time. they're music is simple but at the right time and place. They're contribution is anything but overrated.

[Red Hawk #21]

it's not a possibility, in your mind, that it was a suicide?

Its not, but can you persuade me that it was? Its just not possible for someone who was loaded with up heroin to pick up a gun and shoot himself. And the fact that there were no fingerprints pretty much seals the deal that it was murder. I'd be happy to hear how you think it may have happened though.

[BacktoBasics]

Metallica is overrated no question.

[DisAsTerBot]

rofl less than a year and a live greatest hits album, real good argument

follow up with music that sells, right?

[BacktoBasics]

Its not, but can you persuade me that it was? Its just not possible for someone who was loaded with up heroin to pick up a gun and shoot himself. And the fact that there were no fingerprints pretty much seals the deal that it was murder. I'd be happy to hear how you think it may have happened though.Maybe he borrowed a pair of gloves from OJ

[DisAsTerBot]

He had to have loved the attention. If he didn't want success then he should have just made music with his friends and never signed with a major label.

that was the whole deal at the end. he didn't want it anymore.

[z0sa]

Says the guy who admittedly likes Kiss.

Where did I say they were not overrated? Overrated doesn't mean bad. It means not as great as everyone says.



And how can you be #1 when you're right behind 2 other groups? Dumbfuck.

they're all tied for #1, dumbfuck. don't let me opinions hurt your feelings or anything.

[mookie2001]

follow up with music that sells, right?

i think the music industry would like to know to what you know-a live/greatest hits album will sell. thats golden

[z0sa]

the reason they're "overrated" is beacuse they were the band that changed mainstream rock of the time. they're music is simple but at the right time and place. They're contribution is anything but overrated.

It's just my opinion.

[Greg Oden]

Where did I say they were not overrated? Overrated doesn't mean bad. It means not as great as everyone says.




they're all tied for #1, dumbfuck. don't let me opinions hurt your feelings or anything.

lol #1 right behind 2 other groups.

You're fucking retarded, I get it. You're not hurting my feelings at all or anything. I'm just noticing how big of a faggot you are.

You're probably the #1 biggest dipshit on the forum right behind ducks and sequspur.

[thispego]

Its not, but can you persuade me that it was? Its just not possible for someone who was loaded with up heroin to pick up a gun and shoot himself. And the fact that there were no fingerprints pretty much seals the deal that it was murder. I'd be happy to hear how you think it may have happened though.

have you ever been loaded up with heroin before? how do you know he couldnt pick up a shotgun. Cobain shot ALOT of H and probably had a MUCH higher tolerance than your average joe dope user. and there were no LEGIBLE fingerprints. meaning there were fingerprints but not enough to identify anyone else. there was probably blood spatter all over it that damaged any prints.

[z0sa]

lol #1 right behind 2 other groups.

You're fucking retarded, I get it. You're not hurting my feelings at all or anything. I'm just noticing how big of a faggot you are.

You're probably the #1 biggest dipshit on the forum right behind ducks and sequspur.

lol can't even get a simple joke

[z0sa]

You're not hurting my feelings at all or anything. I'm just noticing how big of a faggot you are.

lol defensive as fuck.

[Greg Oden]

lol can't even get a simple joke

:lmao trying to cover up the fact you're a dumbass.

[Greg Oden]

lol defensive as fuck.

Am the #1 guy that gets defensive right behind 2 other people?

[z0sa]

:lmao trying to cover up the fact you're a dumbass.

Tlong, come out from behind your troll and talk some real shit you pussy

[DisAsTerBot]

It's just my opinion.

and i totally get it. i just think there's more to it than the 4 power chord rock.

[Greg Oden]

Tlong, come out from behind your troll and talk some real shit you pussy

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IVI5W8Eg3Gs/SI8lYL-M6jI/AAAAAAAAABE/hJEyACF7rNQ/s320/YouMad.jpg

[z0sa]

Am the #1 guy that gets defensive right behind 2 other people?

There's tons of equally defensive people. You could be near the top though.

[z0sa]

z0sa's opinions about music constantly make me butthurt.

bitch got exposed

[Greg Oden]

There's tons of equally defensive people. You could be near the top though.

As long as I'm #1 but some how in 3rd place :tu

[Greg Oden]

bitch got exposed

u definitely mad

[mookie2001]

just to get some reference how many of you people like eminem too?

we all know oden does

[z0sa]

and i totally get it. i just think there's more to it than the 4 power chord rock.

I'm actually trying to be civil about this considering the last music thread I was in.. I don't like Nirvana a lot but I understand people who do. I just think those people overrate them. My opinion, nothing more, and no more right than those on the other side of the fence.

[Greg Oden]

just to get some reference how many of you people like eminem too?

we all know oden does
I also like UGK and Geto Boys and undergound metal!

[z0sa]

As long as I'm #1 but some how in 3rd place :tu

which one did I say was 3rd or second place?

[Greg Oden]

which one did I say was 3rd or second place?

The one that was #1 but wasn't.

[z0sa]

I don't actually have shit to say. I just pop off at the mouth like any bitch would.

We all knew that, so you can stop now.

[BacktoBasics]

have you ever been loaded up with heroin before? how do you know he couldnt pick up a shotgun. Cobain shot ALOT of H and probably had a MUCH higher tolerance than your average joe dope user. and there were no LEGIBLE fingerprints. meaning there were fingerprints but not enough to identify anyone else. there was probably blood spatter all over it that damaged any prints.Higher tolerance or not the numbers don't justify even a severe addict being capable.

Degree of Toxicity or Lethality Dose Range
Therapeutic (low tolerance) 3 mg - 4 mg
Toxic (low tolerance) 3 mg - 10 mg
Lethal (low tolerance) 10 mg - 12 mg
Therapeutic (high tolerance) 10 mg - 60 mg
Toxic (high tolerance) 10 mg - 70 mg
Lethal (high tolerance) 75 mg - 80 mg

INTERPRETING THE NUMBERS

The "1.52mg per litre" level in Cobain is one several standard measurements referring to the blood level of morphine. For example, 1.52 mg per litre could also be expressed as "152 mcg per 100 ml," because mathematically they are the same amounts. Those unfamiliar with metric conversions should note that basically, a litre is 1000 ml, so 1 mg per 1000 ml is equivalent to 0.1 mg per 100 ml. Those of you more familiar with metric will note that 100 ml is one-tenth of a litre, thus the abbreviation "dL" stands for "decilitre," which is of course the very same 100 ml. Throughout this report, whenever a source is quoted using a blood drug amount in a format other than mg per litre, I have supplied a non-italicized, bracketed conversion following the quoted figure, eg. "93.0 mcg/dL...(0.93 mg/L, ed.)."

TESTING METHODS ACCURATE

Approximately 25 years ago, it became increasingly clear that accurate postmortem detection of morphine in blood was a problem which had finally been resolved scientifically. Garriott & Sturner, in 1973, note that "With the recent advent of improved methodology for the determination of morphine in the blood...it has now become possible to quantitate small amounts of this narcotic drug metabolite some time after the last previous heroin injection (28)." Nakamura explained in 1979 that "Until recently, the toxicologic determination of heroin death was extremely difficult because of the lack of a sensitive method for the detection and quantitation of small amounts of morphine in postmortem blood and other tissues. " (63). Data is not available regarding the testing method used to determine the level of morphine in Cobain's blood, although the scientific literature suggests strongly that GC (Gas Chromatography) is the current standard method. Other major testing methods exist, such as GLC (Gas-Liquid Chromatography), GC-MS (Gas Chromatography-Mass Spectroscopy), HPLC (High Pressure Liquid Chromatography), RIA (Radio-immuno Assay), and all of these methods have been determined to be very reliable indicators for establishing the levels of morphine in postmortem blood.

HEROIN TURNS INTO MORPHINE

There will be no discussion blood "heroin" levels, because heroin is almost instantly transformed into morphine when it enters the blood. Heroin itself can indeed be measured in the blood and other tissues, especially the urine, but it should be noted that heroin levels are largely irrelevant to this case. Special laboratory conditions are often elaborately constructed to measure these actual "heroin levels," because in everyday life they almost never exist. Again, simply put, when heroin is injected into the blood it rapidly transforms into morphine. There is virtually no heroin left in the blood as "heroin" after about nine minutes, with the heroin going through a deacetylation process, sometimes called de-esterfication. This is known as a "pharmakokinetic" process, and is known to continue after death. Consequently, it is virtually always that morphine, instead of heroin, is measured in the blood of both the living and dead to give forensic scientists an indication of the amount of heroin originally injected, the likely time of injection, and very importantly, an indication as to the events following the injection. Morphine toxicity, whether found in the blood, bile, urine, liver, or other tissues, is the standard measurement for opioid toxicity in general, and heroin in particular, because heroin immediately turns into morphine in the body.

TOLERANCE TESTS IN SEVERE ADDICTS

One study involved a small group of severe addicts who used high doses ranging from 150 mg to 200 mg of morphine four times daily (75). This is equivalent to an intake of approximately 45 mg to 60 mg of heroin, four times daily. These addicts showed some signs of serious effects, but continued for several years without fatality and showing average blood levels of 0.3 mg per liter. Another study points to the potential lethality of even low doses, with 5 fatalities showing an average of a mere 0.021 mg per liter of blood, representing an approximate intake of 3 mg, i.e the average functioning dose. The average person without pain or addiction will overdose with 60 mg of morphine (18 mg heroin), yet a patient in serious pain will likely require the same dose, 60 mg of morphine (18 mg heroin) to relieve such serious pain symptoms. Platt also mentions a particular study where severe heroin addicts were monitored, and the maximum dose seen was a daily total of 260 mg heroin, taken in four divided doses, i.e. 65 mg heroin each dose (75). Again, the maximum lethal dose of heroin is shown to be 75 mg - 80 mg for a 150 lb. severe addict. Such a lethal dose, of about 75 mg - 80 mg heroin, will give the soon-to-be-dead individual a blood morphine level of approximately 0.5 mg of morphine per litre of blood. Astonishingly, this is less than one-third of the level that was found in Cobain's tiny body at least three days after his death.

[In10se]

Eminem is the greatest rapper of all time, his whiny lyrics and temper tantrums on tape speak to the legions of 13 to 30 yr old cry babies who had something bad happen in their lives and want to complain.

[Greg Oden]

We all knew that, so you can stop now.

is that all you ever do when you get mad is change quotes? you're probably #1 at that right behind 2 other posters.

[mookie2001]

ok here are the things we know

greg oden loves nirvana and eminem

we know this

[z0sa]

is that all you ever do when you get mad is change quotes? you're probably #1 at that right behind 2 other posters.

I change quotes to display the actual meaning of posts. Unless you'd like to argue that isn't what you actually mean.

[mookie2001]

zosa should be easy to win this one, its a tap in

eminem? yay or nay?

[Greg Oden]

ok here are the things we know

greg oden loves nirvana and eminem and geto boys and the under ground kings

we know this

that's righ brah. i also love to over use phrases i've been saying since i was 12 like chode bloaded and I saaaaaaaiiiiid etc.

[Greg Oden]

I change quotes to display the actual meaning of posts. Unless you'd like to argue that isn't what you actually mean.

No you keep doing it because you're losing and grabbing for straws. It's ok to lose, you've been doing it all your life. You're probably the #1 loser right behind 2 others.

[Red Hawk #21]

have you ever been loaded up with heroin before? how do you know he couldnt pick up a shotgun. Cobain shot ALOT of H and probably had a MUCH higher tolerance than your average joe dope user. and there were no LEGIBLE fingerprints. meaning there were fingerprints but not enough to identify anyone else. there was probably blood spatter all over it that damaged any prints.

I understand he shot alot of H, and he probably had more tolerance but he had three times the limit of Heroin. He was already a goner the moment the Heroin got in his system. There was no way he could have proceeded to shoot himself after.

Here is a picture of Cobain right after the issue, isn't it funny how there's no blood in the vicinity? The police had NOT cleaned up anything at that point because they were still investigating the scene.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z170/joejohnson24/kurt-cobainbody.jpg

[thispego]

Higher tolerance or not the numbers don't justify even a severe addict being capable.

Degree of Toxicity or Lethality Dose Range
Therapeutic (low tolerance) 3 mg - 4 mg
Toxic (low tolerance) 3 mg - 10 mg
Lethal (low tolerance) 10 mg - 12 mg
Therapeutic (high tolerance) 10 mg - 60 mg
Toxic (high tolerance) 10 mg - 70 mg
Lethal (high tolerance) 75 mg - 80 mg

INTERPRETING THE NUMBERS

The "1.52mg per litre" level in Cobain is one several standard measurements referring to the blood level of morphine. For example, 1.52 mg per litre could also be expressed as "152 mcg per 100 ml," because mathematically they are the same amounts. Those unfamiliar with metric conversions should note that basically, a litre is 1000 ml, so 1 mg per 1000 ml is equivalent to 0.1 mg per 100 ml. Those of you more familiar with metric will note that 100 ml is one-tenth of a litre, thus the abbreviation "dL" stands for "decilitre," which is of course the very same 100 ml. Throughout this report, whenever a source is quoted using a blood drug amount in a format other than mg per litre, I have supplied a non-italicized, bracketed conversion following the quoted figure, eg. "93.0 mcg/dL...(0.93 mg/L, ed.)."

TESTING METHODS ACCURATE

Approximately 25 years ago, it became increasingly clear that accurate postmortem detection of morphine in blood was a problem which had finally been resolved scientifically. Garriott & Sturner, in 1973, note that "With the recent advent of improved methodology for the determination of morphine in the blood...it has now become possible to quantitate small amounts of this narcotic drug metabolite some time after the last previous heroin injection (28)." Nakamura explained in 1979 that "Until recently, the toxicologic determination of heroin death was extremely difficult because of the lack of a sensitive method for the detection and quantitation of small amounts of morphine in postmortem blood and other tissues. " (63). Data is not available regarding the testing method used to determine the level of morphine in Cobain's blood, although the scientific literature suggests strongly that GC (Gas Chromatography) is the current standard method. Other major testing methods exist, such as GLC (Gas-Liquid Chromatography), GC-MS (Gas Chromatography-Mass Spectroscopy), HPLC (High Pressure Liquid Chromatography), RIA (Radio-immuno Assay), and all of these methods have been determined to be very reliable indicators for establishing the levels of morphine in postmortem blood.

HEROIN TURNS INTO MORPHINE

There will be no discussion blood "heroin" levels, because heroin is almost instantly transformed into morphine when it enters the blood. Heroin itself can indeed be measured in the blood and other tissues, especially the urine, but it should be noted that heroin levels are largely irrelevant to this case. Special laboratory conditions are often elaborately constructed to measure these actual "heroin levels," because in everyday life they almost never exist. Again, simply put, when heroin is injected into the blood it rapidly transforms into morphine. There is virtually no heroin left in the blood as "heroin" after about nine minutes, with the heroin going through a deacetylation process, sometimes called de-esterfication. This is known as a "pharmakokinetic" process, and is known to continue after death. Consequently, it is virtually always that morphine, instead of heroin, is measured in the blood of both the living and dead to give forensic scientists an indication of the amount of heroin originally injected, the likely time of injection, and very importantly, an indication as to the events following the injection. Morphine toxicity, whether found in the blood, bile, urine, liver, or other tissues, is the standard measurement for opioid toxicity in general, and heroin in particular, because heroin immediately turns into morphine in the body.

TOLERANCE TESTS IN SEVERE ADDICTS

One study involved a small group of severe addicts who used high doses ranging from 150 mg to 200 mg of morphine four times daily (75). This is equivalent to an intake of approximately 45 mg to 60 mg of heroin, four times daily. These addicts showed some signs of serious effects, but continued for several years without fatality and showing average blood levels of 0.3 mg per liter. Another study points to the potential lethality of even low doses, with 5 fatalities showing an average of a mere 0.021 mg per liter of blood, representing an approximate intake of 3 mg, i.e the average functioning dose. The average person without pain or addiction will overdose with 60 mg of morphine (18 mg heroin), yet a patient in serious pain will likely require the same dose, 60 mg of morphine (18 mg heroin) to relieve such serious pain symptoms. Platt also mentions a particular study where severe heroin addicts were monitored, and the maximum dose seen was a daily total of 260 mg heroin, taken in four divided doses, i.e. 65 mg heroin each dose (75). Again, the maximum lethal dose of heroin is shown to be 75 mg - 80 mg for a 150 lb. severe addict. Such a lethal dose, of about 75 mg - 80 mg heroin, will give the soon-to-be-dead individual a blood morphine level of approximately 0.5 mg of morphine per litre of blood. Astonishingly, this is less than one-third of the level that was found in Cobain's tiny body at least three days after his death.

So he was going to die either from overdosing or a shotty blast to the face. i'd take the latter and be thankful for it :lol

[BacktoBasics]

You're probably the #1 loser right behind 2 others.:lmao

[z0sa]

You're probably the #1 loser right behind 2 others.

I separated the joke between two sentences, thus clearly making it a joke if you have any sort of sarcasm detector. Do you need an explanation of sarcasm?

[thispego]

I understand he shot alot of H, and he probably had more tolerance but he had three times the limit of Heroin. He was already a goner the moment the Heroin got in his system. There was no way he could have proceeded to shoot himself after.

Here is a picture of Cobain right after the issue, isn't it funny how there's no blood in the vicinity? The police had NOT cleaned up anything at that point because they were still investigating the scene.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z170/joejohnson24/kurt-cobainbody.jpg

i've got alot of blocks on my work computer and can't view the websites or pictures you're referring to, but i will when i get home

[leemajors]

i liked nirvana when i was 10 or 12, it is pretty telling though 13-18 years later and his music hasnt stood the test of (a very short) time

In Utero is still very solid imo, I still listen to it a couple times a month.

[In10se]

Where do you work? They don't get mad you look at Spurstalk?

[panic giraffe]

Its not, but can you persuade me that it was? Its just not possible for someone who was loaded with up heroin to pick up a gun and shoot himself. And the fact that there were no fingerprints pretty much seals the deal that it was murder. I'd be happy to hear how you think it may have happened though.


i couldn't persuade you anymore than anyone can over the interwebs. but if it's worth anything to you, dude wasn't just loaded on heroin, dude was ALWAYS loaded on heroin. tolerance should count for something. anyone who knows a brief history of cobain knows that on top of his own weak emotional state (which was only weaked more by being married to the worst possible bitch in the world to be married to), he also suffered through migraines and horrible stomach ulcers which he self medicated with the substance he was already addicted to. so the amount of heroin that would floor ordinary mortals would have probably only been a typical breakfast at the cobain household while the wife is out.

i mean if you knew someone who was constantly drunk and pretty much lived with a minimum .16 bac, but you found out they killed themself and was found to have a .10 bac, would you say that they couldn't have shot themself due to being too drunk?

but lets face it...........who cares?
he was supposed to die at that time, its what made that scene go from fad to legendary. if it wasn't him who would be the grunge immortal patron saint, layne staley? that would suck. or maybe weiland would have got the od right and offed himself? that wouldn't have been too bad for the other members of STP. but fate let the right martyr die for the right cause.

think about it...the only good that would have came from him living would be that we wouldn't have ever heard of the foo fighters. because at the other end of the coin, cobain would have had a career just a hair better than chris cornel, which is sometimes hit, more often miss. and that would have been more sad than his death.

[Red Hawk #21]

i've got alot of blocks on my work computer and can't view the websites or pictures you're referring to, but i will when i get home

Yeah you'll see it then. Its a pic of Cobain just lying on the ground, the floor underneath him seems to be completely clean. If someone just got blasted with a shotgun, I would expect a pool of blood or even spatters of blood. But there seems to be no blood in the vicinity...

[Sancha]

cable/mtv, hoe


Why you calling me a hoe you putito? Because I sleep with a lot of men for money or because I asked you a question about something you posted?

[z0sa]

Greg Oden/Tlong: too stupid to get a joke, or too butthurt?

z0sa 1
Olden 0

[BacktoBasics]

i couldn't persuade you anymore than anyone can over the interwebs. but if it's worth anything to you, dude wasn't just loaded on heroin, dude was ALWAYS loaded on heroin. tolerance should count for something. anyone who knows a brief history of cobain knows that on top of his own weak emotional state (which was only weaked more by being married to the worst possible bitch in the world to be married to), he also suffered through migraines and horrible stomach ulcers which he self medicated with the substance he was already addicted to. so the amount of heroin that would floor ordinary mortals would have probably only been a typical breakfast at the cobain household while the wife is out.

Tolerance has been taken into account. Did you read my post above. He was over three times the lethal dose for a "severe" addict. Not just 3 times a lethal dose but three times a lethal dose taking in to account severe tolerances.

So it wasn't typical breakfast for even the most severe.

[Greg Oden]

I lost badly


I know. So does anyone else who's read this thread.


Spurstalk - 100
zosa - still sitting winless.

[mookie2001]

greg oden isnt tlong, if he is he does a really good job of a acting like a 25 year old from ohio with a new camero and a stepdad that was in the nfl

[Dr. Gonzo]

I've known someone that had a .47 BAC and lived. Not everybody is the same.

[z0sa]

I know. So does anyone else who's read this thread.

Just having the name Greg Oden makes you a monumental failure.

ST spends its time laughing at you lol

[Greg Oden]

Just having the name Greg Oden makes you a monumental failure.
Says the guy who's done nothing but fail his entire life.

[Greg Oden]

I don't know why zosa is surprised he lost. He's still 0 & forever when he gets into arguments. It's not new.

[panic giraffe]

Did you read my post above .


nah, i was too busy typing out that novel of a post. after i put my post up, i saw that. still, i take studies like that with a grain of salt. anyone who has ever tried hard drugs probably would. there should be other factors like potency and such taken into account as well.

anyways who's to say he couldn't function for long enough to scribble out his "fade away" letter and still have enough capacity to pull the trigger?

either way if he did it or someone else did it, i stick to my view that it was better in the long run..

i think the truth is somewhere in the middle. he probably was being enabled by someone only to be egged on.....

[In10se]

Tolerance has been taken into account. Did you read my post above. He was over three times the lethal dose for a "severe" addict. Not just 3 times a lethal dose but three times a lethal dose taking in to account severe tolerances.

So it wasn't typical breakfast for even the most severe.

That part must have gone over his head, an amazing feat

[mavs>spurs2]

lol zosa

[panic giraffe]

I've known someone that had a .47 BAC and lived. Not everybody is the same.


exactly.

which is why i think tolerance should be taken into consideration more so than the avg human being in this case

[z0sa]

Says the guy who's done nothing but fail his entire life.

Says the greatest bust of the decade.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Says the greatest bust of the decade.

I may be wrong but I don't think that's really Greg Oden.

[z0sa]

I don't know why zosa is surprised he lost. He's still 0 & forever when he gets into arguments. It's not new.

At least I can say I don't get butthurt when someone calls a couple of my favorite bands overrated. :lol

[z0sa]

I may be wrong but I don't think that's really Greg Oden.

he won't come out from behind his troll because he's a pussy.

[Greg Oden]

Says the greatest bust of the decade.


At least I can say I don't get butthurt when someone calls a couple of my favorite bands overrated. :lol

I don't like any of those bands. But you do like Kiss and think you can be #1 while being behind someone :lol :lol :lol

[Greg Oden]

I may be wrong but I don't think that's really Greg Oden.

More of zosa's lifelong failures on full display.

[z0sa]

More of zosa's lifelong failures on full display.

I may fail but at least I always have a good time.

[thispego]

Zosa and greg oden, shut the fuck up you bastards

[z0sa]

I don't like any of those bands.

:lmao :lmao you're very obviously offended and butthurt.

EZ way to troll Oden: call out Nirvana or Metallica :lol

[mookie2001]

zosa had the chance to settle it and he whiffed

just make up guys, yall both like eminem

[Greg Oden]

:lmao :lmao you're very obviously offended and butthurt.

EZ way to troll Oden: call out Nirvana or Metallica :lol

I'm offended and butthurt because I called you out for being a dumbfuck. That's a great argument you got there. Just face your loss and move on.

[z0sa]

zosa had the chance to settle it and he whiffed

just make up guys, yall both like eminem

I hate rap

and it'd have been too easy dogging his shitty favorite bands.

[Greg Oden]

Zosa and greg oden, shut the fuck up you bastards

hi

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/image.php?u=1318&dateline=1180814022&type=profile

[Greg Oden]

I hate rap

and it'd have been too easy dogging his shitty favorite bands.

nickelback could be my all time favorite and it still woudn't be worse than Kiss.

[z0sa]

I'm offended and butthurt then I called you out for being a dumbfuck.

Yes. 2+2=4; you were offended and butthurt because I called out your favorite bands.

[z0sa]

nickelback could be my all time favorite and it still woudn't be worse than eminem.

True dat.




:lol

[IronMexican]

They're ok. Definitely one of tghe most overrated bands ever.

[thispego]

hi

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/image.php?u=1318&dateline=1180814022&type=profile

rofl, that is the most unrecognizable picture of me in existence

[Greg Oden]

Yes. 2+2=4; you were offended and butthurt because I called out your favorite bands.

More like you got butthurt because you were called out for being fucking retarded.

[Greg Oden]

rofl, that is the most unrecognizable picture of me in existence

Were you bloading chodes i said with your v town amigos?

[BacktoBasics]

exactly.

which is why i think tolerance should be taken into consideration more so than the avg human being in this caseWell the "tolerance" variable was used. Severe addict. Which he was. Three times the lethal dose for a severe addict was found...what was it...two days after his death. That's quite impressive. Even for a severe addict most would agree that instant death would ensure even for a severe addict post injection. Quality is of no issue because blood content is blood content. He either took a little of the good stuff or a lot of shit stuff. Regardless even if he was a super human heroin user three times the lethal dose is incomprehensible here. Even twice would be questionable. Then to have the motor skills to flip the shotgun over and positions yourself awkwardly enough to get the shot off....pretty far out there.

[thispego]

were you bloading chodes i said with your v town amigos?

i'm always bloating chodes. Sometimes with my vtown amigos, sometimes without

[Many PackYao]

I think it has to be Courtney Love imho, I just can't see any reason why someone would want to kill this dude. Did Cobain have any major enemies or something like that?
Axl Rose?

[Red Hawk #21]

Well the "tolerance" variable was used. Severe addict. Which he was. Three times the lethal dose for a severe addict was found...what was it...two days after his death. That's quite impressive. Even for a severe addict most would agree that instant death would ensure even for a severe addict post injection. Quality is of no issue because blood content is blood content. He either took a little of the good stuff or a lot of shit stuff. Regardless even if he was a super human heroin user three times the lethal dose is incomprehensible here. Even twice would be questionable. Then to have the motor skills to flip the shotgun over and positions yourself awkwardly enough to get the shot off....pretty far out there.

I don't think there's any point even stating this anymore. I don't know how anyone can think Cobain wasn't a goner after that heroin got in his bloodstream. Fuck it, if he was so superhuman that he could survive three times the lethal dose then he should have survived the gunshot also.

[DisAsTerBot]

Axl Rose?

forgot about that

[Dr. Gonzo]

I don't think there's any point even stating this anymore. I don't know how anyone can think Cobain wasn't a goner after that heroin got in his bloodstream. Fuck it, if he was so superhuman that he could survive three times the lethal dose then he should have survived the gunshot also.



I've known someone that had a .47 BAC and lived. Not everybody is the same.

[BacktoBasics]

I guess we should ask. "whats the highest ever recorded heroin content for someone who's survived".

Has someone actually survived with that level?

There have been survivors with BAC well over Gonzo's friends .47. So yes strange things happen. Has it happened to that extent with heroin?

[Red Hawk #21]

I guess we should ask. "whats the highest ever recorded heroin content for someone who's survived".

Has someone actually survived with that level?

Yea good idea. Im guessing since "everyone's not the same" someone must have survived with that level...

[BacktoBasics]

Yea good idea. Im guessing since "everyone's not the same" someone must have survived with that level...or double the lethal dose for a severe addict. Even double would be interesting. I'd imagine that there are a few thousand that have survived with a blood content slightly over the lethal limit but twice is doubtful. Three times would be quite the find.

I did a few searches but came up empty. Anyone else wanna look around.

[Heath Ledger]

This thread has spam written all over it.

[BacktoBasics]

Okay here is some interesting shit.


Regardless of the specific dose of heroin, the 1.52mg/L blood morphine level in Cobain allows for the conclusion to be made that he was immediately incapacitated or dead based on the simple fact that no other instance exists on record indicating otherwise, even remotely.

and again


Garriott & Sturner did not find any blood morphine level over 0.93 mg per litre, i.e. Cobain's blood level was over 50% higher than the highest level they had ever encountered.

Still would be interesting to find some high content survivors.

[thispego]

This thread has spam written all over it.

and you have chode written all over you. your point?

[leemajors]

and you have chode written all over you. your point?

would make for an interesting tramp stamp

[thispego]

The word chode or a picture of an actual chode?

[mrsmaalox]

The word chode or a picture of an actual chode?

:ttiwwp:




:D

[Red Hawk #21]

-_I0_4LuGCs

[Red Hawk #21]

d7mhtGOfk2s

[thispego]

I understand he shot alot of H, and he probably had more tolerance but he had three times the limit of Heroin. He was already a goner the moment the Heroin got in his system. There was no way he could have proceeded to shoot himself after.

Here is a picture of Cobain right after the issue, isn't it funny how there's no blood in the vicinity? The police had NOT cleaned up anything at that point because they were still investigating the scene.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z170/joejohnson24/kurt-cobainbody.jpg

the reason you dont see blood or anything is because that pic doesnt show jack shit

[desflood]

I was reading about patternicity the other day. It was part of human evolution - it was beneficial to early people to hear "patterns" in random noise. Hey, nine times out of ten it was just the grass rustling in the wind, but that tenth time it was a lion or some other predator sneaking up to eat your ass. People now, in the absence of large man-eating predators, have taken it a step further and find conspiracies or plots where there are none, just a random series of events thrown together. Wind rustling in the grass.

There's no mystery here. Kurt Cobain was a selfish drug addict who killed himself without a thought to his then infant daughter, leaving her in the hands of an equally worthless mother.

[James David Manning]

z0sa, son, you suck at arguing. God bless.

[BacktoBasics]

I was reading about patternicity the other day. It was part of human evolution - it was beneficial to early people to hear "patterns" in random noise. Hey, nine times out of ten it was just the grass rustling in the wind, but that tenth time it was a lion or some other predator sneaking up to eat your ass. People now, in the absence of large man-eating predators, have taken it a step further and find conspiracies or plots where there are none, just a random series of events thrown together. Wind rustling in the grass.

There's no mystery here. Kurt Cobain was a selfish drug addict who killed himself without a thought to his then infant daughter, leaving her in the hands of an equally worthless mother.So you missed the part about three times the lethal dose for a severe addict. Every study ever done on Heroin concludes that a third of what he took would equate to instant death.

I have yet to find any case anywhere that showed any amount of survival by even half of what he took. Let alone the ability to flip a gun, reposition it and then pull the trigger with his fully out stretched.

[Dr. Gonzo]

So you missed the part about three times the lethal dose for a severe addict. Every study ever done on Heroin concludes that a third of what he took would equate to instant death.

I have yet to find any case anywhere that showed any amount of survival by even half of what he took. Let alone the ability to flip a gun, reposition it and then pull the trigger with his fully out stretched.

You've read every study ever done? That's amazing.

[I. Hustle]

I have been around heroin addicts and I would have been shocked to see one even pick up a hand gun let alone a shotgun. After shooting up they would just kind of sit there in their own little world. Of course I have seen them take light bumps just to get them going but the hard core addicts that took a good amount couldn't even stand or keep their eyes open.

[BacktoBasics]

You've read every study ever done? That's amazing.:lmao Everyone that I read while while bored last night. 12 or so. I couldn't find any survivors with even half of what he took.

[Soul_Patch]

This is serious shit...we NEED to get to the bottom of this!