Why Kobe/Jordan Debate Is Closer Than It Seems

[usdane]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/311555-why-kobejordan-debate-is-closer-than-it-seems

Why Kobe/Jordan Debate Is Closer Than It Seems

by Marcel Mansour (http://bleacherreport.com/users/18185-Marcel-Mansour) Written on December 19, 2009


As Kobe Bryant continues to add to his already-brilliant legacy, the debate between him and Michael Jordan rages on.
The majority of the NBA fans believe that the comparisons are foolish and that Jordan is still much better than Kobe.
However, I am going to show why Kobe is closer to Jordan than is perceived.
The following are major reasons against Kobe when people compare him to Jordan and why they are incorrect.

1. Jordan Simply Has Much Better Stats Than Kobe in Every Area
Jordan's career stats are that he averaged 30.1 points, 6.2 rebounds, 5.3 assists, 2.3 steals, and 0.8 blocks per game, while shooting 49.7 percent from the field, 32.7 percent from the three-point line, and 83.5 percent from the free throw line.
On the other hand, Kobe has averaged 25.2 points, 5.3 rebounds, 4.6 assists, 1.5 steals, and 0.6 blocks per game, while shooting 45.5 percent from the field, 34 percent from the three-point line, and 84 percent from the free throw line.
At first look, it seems that Jordan dominates Kobe, but Kobe's career averages are severely hurt by his first few seasons when he did not play much, due to him coming out of high school.
Now when you look at Kobe's career stats without his first three seasons (Jordan played three years of college), his numbers are 28.2 points, 5.9 rebounds, 5.2 assists, 1.7 steals, and 0.6 blocks per game, while shooting 45.8 percent from the field, 34.1 percent from the three-point line, and 84.4 percent from the free throw line.
Kobe is just on par with Jordan on all stats except for points, steals, and field goal percentage.
Now, the reason why Kobe averages two less points than Jordan is because Jordan averaged 1.5 more field goal attempts per game than Kobe without his first three seasons.
Jordan was simply slightly better than Kobe at steals, which really is not that important.

2. Jordan Shot a Much Higher Percentage from the Field Than Kobe
This is one of the worst arguments in favor of Jordan compared to Kobe because Kobe shot many more three-point shots than Jordan did, thus resulting in a lower field goal percentage.
Instead of looking at field goal percentage to compare the two, I like to look at a stat that is never used, but is the best indicator in field goal—three-point and free throw efficiency and that is points per field goal attempt.
Jordan averaged 1.316 points per field goal attempt in his career, while Kobe has averaged 1.312 points per field goal attempt—a difference so small in should not ever be argued against Kobe.
On average, when Jordan shot 20 times, he scored 26.3 points, while Kobe averages 26.2 points per every 20-shot attempts. I think this pretty much eliminates the field goal percentage argument in favor of Jordan, as they are basically even.

3. Jordan Is a Better Teammate/Person Than Kobe Is
Jordan was a terrible teammate compared to Kobe, as he punched teammates Steve Kerr and Will Perdue during practice and ran coach Doug Collins because he wanted a more team-oriented system.
The most obvious way to show how bad of a teammate Jordan was is to look at how he treated Kwame Brown when Jordan was on the Wizards.
At the time, Jordan was still a good player, but past his prime and in a situation where he could lead a young and rebuilding Wizards team with a talented, first overall pick in Brown.
However, instead of supporting and trying to lift up Brown's spirits after some struggles that were bound to occur as he was coming out of high school, Jordan called Brown "a flaming faggot" and he used several other derogatory words towards Brown repeatedly, which obviously destroyed Brown's confidence, as he most likely idolized Jordan.
This shows that even after his prime, Jordan only cared about himself, and his attitude towards Kwame is a major reason why Kwame became a bust, as he has never been confident in his game, which resulted in him not being able to handle all of Jordan's insults and the pressure of a franchise on his shoulders.
On top of that, Jordan even flew in his old high school teammate—who his high school coach chose over Jordan for the varsity basketball team—to his Hall of Fame speech just to make fun of him, and he even insulted Dean Smith for leaving him off the Sports Illustrated cover because he was a freshman.
Jordan's speech was bitter, petty, and pathetic. Jordan also had several affairs while married and numerous gambling problems.
Kobe has been a bit of an ass himself, but, besides him cheating on his wife and then having his image destroyed because of false rape charges, he has been pretty clean himself.
Sure, he helped run off coach Phil Jackson, but Jackson was also willing to return to coach him just one year later.
Kobe also received most of the blame for Shaq leaving the Lakers and ending the dynasty, but, as time goes on, it seems like Shaq had as much blame as anyone.
He has now left all four teams he played for on bad terms and wanted too much money for Jerry Buss to be willing to pay—which was the real reason why Shaq was traded, not because Kobe demanded him to, as he himself was debating whether to sign with the Lakers when the Shaq trade went through.

4. Jordan Made His Teammates Better Than Kobe Does
Jordan's teammates have been extremely undervalued, as is his impact on the Bulls.
First, let's look at how other teams fared when their best players missed an entire season.
When Bill Russell retired in 1969, the Celtics went from 48-34 (championship) to a 34-48 record and missing the playoffs.
Now, when Wilt retired in 1973, the Lakers went from 60-22 to 47-35 and a first-round exit.
Then, when Larry Bird missed 76 games in the 1988-1989 season, the Celtics went from 57-25 to 42-40 and getting swept in the first round of the playoffs.
When Oscar retired from the Bucks in 1974, the team went from 59 wins (Finals appearance) to 38 wins and missing the playoffs.
Finally, when Magic retired from the Lakers, the team went from 58 to 43 wins and losing in the first round of the playoffs.
As I have shown above, every time a legend left or missed an entire season, the team averaged 15.5 wins less than the season before.
Now, you would expect the same thing to occur with Jordan suddenly retiring before the 1993-1994 season and the Bulls replacing him with Pete Myers, a player from the CBA.
However, the team went from 57 wins the year before to 55 without Jordan and 51-21 in the games Pippen played in, which is a 70.83 winning percentage, while the season before with Jordan, the team had a 69.5 winning percentage, lower with Jordan than without him.
In 1993-1994, the Bulls made the second round of the playoffs and lost to the Knicks in seven games only because of the worst call in NBA history, which cost the Bulls game five of the series.
Had the Bulls won that series, which they would have had it not been for that call, then the Bulls would've face the Pacers in the ECF and likely would've defeated them, as they beat them 4-1 in the season's series and matched up well with them.
That means that the Bulls would've at least made the Finals without Jordan if not for that call and at least gone to six games against the Rockets.
Here is a video of the call (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4WjOUXZr7Q) and of the reaction years later. (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=adande_ja&page=Hollins-090529)
Another fact about Jordan and his teammates is that his best teammates Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant and B.J. Armstrong from his first three-peat all played better without him than with him.
Without Jordan, Pippen averaged 22 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 2.9 steals, and 0.8 blocks per game, while shooting 49.1 percent from the field and being selected to the All-NBA First Team and All-Defensive First Team, while finishing third in the MVP voting.
He also became only the second player ever to lead his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks per game.
Next, both Grant and Armstrong made their only All-Star appearances that year without Jordan, as Grant averaged 15.1 points, 11 rebounds, 3.4 assists, 1.1 steals, and 1.2 blocks, while shooting 52.4 percent from the field and Armstrong averaging 14.8 points, 4 assists, 2.1 rebounds, one steal, and only 1.6 turnovers, while shooting 47.6 percent from the field, 44.4 percent from the three-point line, and 85.5 percent from the free throw line.
Overall, when you combine the nine players who played on both the 92-93 and 93-94 Bulls, you will see that the players shot 48.6 percent from the field without Jordan, compared to 48.2 percent with Jordan, while teammates of Magic and Bird had their field goal percentage decrease without their leader.
This is shown by both Pippen and Grant, who even though they had more responsibility, shot nearly two percent better from the field than the year before with Jordan.
Finally, when Jordan did come back the next season after missing most of the regular season, the Bulls were defeated in six games to the Magic, one less game than the year before.
That year they had Jordan, but no Grant, who was actually on the Magic team that defeated the Bulls.
This is overlooked because people just say that he was rusty, even though Jordan scored a record 63 points in the playoffs when he only played 18 games in the regular season that season and had scored 55 points against the Knicks earlier in the year.
Kobe, on the other hand, helped make Smush Parker into a respectable starting point guard as he averaged 11.5 points, 3.7 assists, 3.3 rebounds, and 1.7 steals, while shooting a solid 44.7 percent from the field and 36.6 percent from the three-point line.
The year after he left the Lakers, he was waived by the Miami Heat, who had the worst record in the league at the time.
Kobe also helped speed up Andrew Bynum's development by feeding him the ball to help increase his confidence, as Bynum became a beast down low until knee injuries cut off his last two seasons.
Also, Luke Walton, Chris Mihm, and Trevor Ariza all significantly improved when they played with Kobe.
Kobe was also able to lead a team with Odom, Walton, Brown, and Parker in the starting lineup to 45 wins in arguably the most difficult conference ever, while Jordan has never had a winning season in five years without Pippen.

5. Jordan Played in a Better Era Than Kobe Does
Another major reason why people say Jordan is better than Kobe is that he played in a better and more competitive era than Kobe currently plays in.
I think that is false as I believe that the '90s are one of the weakest eras in the league's history.
The league was watered down by expansion, as teams in Miami, Minnesota, Charlotte, and Orlando were all created in 1989-1990.
Jordan also did not have to face any great teams. The best teams in the '90s were the the Rockets, Jazz, Super Sonics, Knicks, and Suns.
The Rockets had one great player in Hakeem and no sidekick even close to Pippen's caliber, except for the 1994-1995 season when Jordan could not lead the Bulls to the Finals.
The Suns had Barkley, but Kevin Johnson was not as good as Pippen, and Majerle was not as good as Grant.
Then, the Sonics had two really good players in Payton and Kemp, but no legend, and no great third option.
The Knicks had Ewing and no great second option, as Starks was more of a third option.
Finally, the Jazz had a great 1-2 in Malone and Stockton, but the Bulls had better third and fourth options as they had Rodman and Kukoc, compared to Hornacek and Russell.
Kobe has played against a great San Antonio Spurs team throughout his career who are led by Tim Duncan, one of the 10 greatest players ever, who has had two all-star caliber players with him.
Then, the Phoenix Suns have had one of the most talented offensive teams led by two-time MVP award winner Steve Nash.
Also, the Detroit Pistons had four or five players worthy of an All-Star selection and were one of the best defensive teams ever along with the Celtics, who had three Hall of Famers.

6. Jordan Is a Better Defender Than Kobe Is
A major reason why people say Jordan is that he was a better defender than Kobe is mostly because he won a Defensive Player of the Year Award, while Kobe hasn't.
However, while Jordan was great defensively, he is not better than Kobe.
Both Kobe and Jordan were great one-on-one defenders and good team defenders who were able to defend players of multiple positions.
Jordan was a better shot blocker and thief than Kobe is, but Kobe has never played with a great perimeter defender like Jordan played with Pippen.
Pippen was always the player on the Bulls who defended the opponent's best offensive player, and he was so versatile that he could guard points guards through power forwards.
Kobe has not had that luxury until this season, when the Lakers got Artest and, even though Artest is excellent, he is not as good and versatile as Pippen was, as he does not have the quickness to guard point or even some shooting guards.
Also, there was a severe lack of very good offensive shooting guards when Jordan played.
The only really good offensive two guards in the late '80s and '90s were Clyde Drexler, Mitch Richmond, and Reggie Miller, while Kobe has had to deal with Dwyane Wade, Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Ray Allen, Manu Ginobili, Paul Pierce, Joe Johnson, and Miller throughout his career.
Finally, Kobe has already made the All Defensive First Team seven times and the second team twice, while Jordan was selected to the All Defensive First Team nine times.

7. Jordan Is Much More Clutch Than Kobe Is
Another major argument in favor of Jordan is that he is more clutch than Kobe.
Kobe has already tied Jordan in terms of making game winning shots after his shot against the Bucks raised his total to 27—the same as Jordan.
In his career, Jordan averaged 33.4 points, 6.4 rebounds, and 5.7 assists, while shooting 48.7 percent from the field.
Kobe has averaged 25 points, 5.1 rebounds, and 4.7 assists on 44.7 percent shooting, but that is also because of his first three seasons when his minutes were limited.
However, when you remove those three seasons, Kobe's career playoff stats are 27.6 points, 5.5 rebounds, and 5.2 assists on 45 percent shooting from the field.
Jordan averages six more points because he averages 25.1 shot attempts, compared to 22 for Kobe (without first three seasons).
Kobe is also hurt in rebounding because of Shaq taking up so much space in the middle.
Finally, Jordan was an excellent postseason performer, but Kobe has been, as well, and they are both amazing during game-winning situations, as they each have 27 game-winning shots.
Overall, Kobe's resume is not as good as Jordan's, but he still has a lot of time to add on and eventually pass Jordan with a couple of more championships.
Kobe's career stats are better than it looks, while Jordan's teammates are extremely underrated.
Personally, I believe that when Kobe retires, he will be considered the greatest player ever, as he will win two or three more rings.

[Mavs_man_41]

kill yourself

[HarlemHeat37]

so Kobe fans have reached the point where they're linking horrible arguments from a 17-year old Laker homer? LOL..how is this kid even getting internet publicity?..

[boston.balla]

so Kobe fans have reached the point where they're linking horrible arguments from a 17-year old Laker homer? LOL..how is this kid even getting internet publicity?..

so what if he is 17 .. he has some very reasonable arguments.

I agree that the difference between kobe and jordan is not as big as it seems. Personally i find kobe much more versatile. Yeah, i just said it. A celtics fan. If it not were for colorado(even a retard comprehends that there couldn't have been any rape .. so many arguments for the only logical point of view that it's not even debatable) many people would regard kobe differently. Many dumb people. Kobe is on par with anybody, he is much more fundamentally sound than mike, has a much better post game, incomparable range.

If you want to compare stats compare them on per shot. Any reasonably knowledgeable fan understands those written above and understands why kobe played how he played in 2005-2007 etc.

It's so clear it amazes me how much "common sense" is that jordan is so untouchable. Just another personality cult spoon fed by the media "el suprem comandante" style.

[Rogue]

it's always nonsense to compare someone to his predecessors either in terms of projected abilities or achieved honors. The game has changed prodigiously over the past decades and some stats like assists are counted in quite different ways today than several years ago, which in my humble opinion makes it almost impossible to launch a comparison between two players from different eras. Plus it's also kind of arbitrary to evaluate players laterally in the only terms of trophies/honors, like Dirk is unarguably one of the best in NBA league but there are too many players with rings in NBA to name here.

[KSeal]

Oh jesus. Where is MiamiHeat? Stunned he has made this a 50 page thread by now.

[ElNono]

LOL bleacherreport
LOL bitter Lakerfan

BTW, this is the writer's profile:
ABOUT MARCEL »
I am Marcel and I am a 17 year old who lives in San Diego. I am a die hard Laker and Dodger fan. I am also the community leader of the Lakers page on Bleacher Report. I also root for the Angels in baseball. I am a huge NBA and MLB fan in general, but I love my LA teams. I am also a fan of the NFL even though I do not root for a team in football. My email address is [email protected] so if you want to contact me about anything regarding sports, I will be happy to respond to you.

Today, my favorite athletes are Kobe Bryant, Andrew Bynum, Dwight Howard, Larry Fitzgerald, Matt Kemp, Clayton Kershaw, Pedro Martinez, Manny Ramirez and Adrian Peterson. My favorite retired athletes are Magic Johnson, Hakeem Olajuwan, Kareem Abdul Jabaar, Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, Jim Brown, Jerry Rice and Sandy Koufax.

I hate the Boston Celtics, San Francisco Giants and Boston Red Sox. I also dislike the Suns, but they're not good enough for me to hate them. My least favorite current players are Steve Nash, Amare Stoudamire, Rajon Rondo, Ray Allen, Kendrick Perkins, Shaquille O'Neal, Trevor Hoffman, Derek Jeter and Dwayne Wade.

LINK (http://bleacherreport.com/users/18185-marcel-mansour)

[Chieflion]

LOL bleacherreport
LOL bitter Lakerfan

BTW, this is the writer's profile:
ABOUT MARCEL »
I am Marcel and I am a 17 year old who lives in San Diego. I am a die hard Laker and Dodger fan. I am also the community leader of the Lakers page on Bleacher Report. I also root for the Angels in baseball. I am a huge NBA and MLB fan in general, but I love my LA teams. I am also a fan of the NFL even though I do not root for a team in football. My email address is [email protected] so if you want to contact me about anything regarding sports, I will be happy to respond to you.

Today, my favorite athletes are Kobe Bryant, Andrew Bynum, Dwight Howard, Larry Fitzgerald, Matt Kemp, Clayton Kershaw, Pedro Martinez, Manny Ramirez and Adrian Peterson. My favorite retired athletes are Magic Johnson, Hakeem Olajuwan, Kareem Abdul Jabaar, Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, Jim Brown, Jerry Rice and Sandy Koufax.

I hate the Boston Celtics, San Francisco Giants and Boston Red Sox. I also dislike the Suns, but they're not good enough for me to hate them. My least favorite current players are Steve Nash, Amare Stoudamire, Rajon Rondo, Ray Allen, Kendrick Perkins, Shaquille O'Neal, Trevor Hoffman, Derek Jeter and Dwayne Wade.

LINK (http://bleacherreport.com/users/18185-marcel-mansour)
Die-hard Laker fan hates Shaq for giving them three rings. Die-hard Laker fan does not dislike Kevin Garnett? Why? Die-hard Laker fan does not like Dwyane Wade and spells his name wrongly. Die-hard Laker fan hates Nash and Stoudemire because the Suns kicked them out of the playoffs in 2006/07.

[ChrisRichards]

1. Playoff PPG All Time (http://www.nba.com/statistics/encyc/Player.jsp)

2. PPG All Time (http://www.nba.com/statistics/default_all_time_leaders/AllTimeLeadersPPGQuery.html?topic=4&stat=0)

Kobe will never be as good as MJ was.

Next off is the following:

Also, Kobe in the finals. This is how they performed in the finals.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/zillgitt/2004-06-15-zillgitt_x.htm

In 35 Finals games, Jordan averaged 33.6 points, 6.0 rebounds and 6.0 assists a game on 48% FG
In 30 Finals games, Bryant has averaged 24.6 points, 5.2 rebounds and 5.3 assists a game on 41% FG

Also MJ has 5 finals in the top 15 all time with all 6 in the top 26 and Kobe has 0 finals performances in the top 50 and has a all time top 10 worst finals performance.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-2

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-Worst




MVP's - Jordan = 5; Kobe = 1
Titles - Jordan = 6 (as the #1 Option and best player); Kobe = 1 (as the best player on team) 3 (2nd best player on team)
Finals MVP's - Jordan = 6; Kobe = 1
DPOY - Jordan = 1; Kobe = 0
Scoring Titles - Jordan = 10; Kobe = 2
Career PPG - Jordan = 30.1 (Highest Ever); Kobe = 25.0
Playoffs PPG - Jordan = 33.4 (Highest Ever); Kobe = 25.0
Playoff Points - Jordan = 5987 - Most Ever Points (179 games); Kobe = 4381 (175 games)
FG% - Jordan - 50% Career; Kobe = 45% Career Thus Far
Playoff FG% - Jordan = 49% Career; Kobe = 45% Career Thus Far
PER (Offensive and Defensive Rating) - Jordan Career = 27.91 (highest ever); Kobe = 23.64
Playoff PER (Offensive and Defensive Rating) - Jordan Career = 28.59 (highest ever); Kobe = 22.04
Steals - Jordan = 2.4 SPG Career (with 3 Steals Titles); Kobe = 1.5 SPG
Blocks - Jordan = 0.8 BPG Career (most blocks ever for a guard); Kobe = 0.6



Here were the requirements
NBA ALL-TIME LEADERS:
(All statistical records + playoff records + career averages + playoff averages + MVPs + Finals MVPs + Rings + All-1st teams + All-1st Defensive Teams + All-star games + All-star MVPS)
This is how it broke down each category:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

This is how it broke down each category:
NBA MVP awards won (five points each)
NBA championships won (five points each)
All-Star Games selected to play in (one point each)
All-NBA first-team selections (two points each)
All-defensive first team (one point each)
NBA Finals MVP awards (two points each)
All-Star MVP awards (one point each)
Individual statistical titles (two points each) — restricted to points, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage and free throw percentage, the stats the league has used the longest
Career averages (six points each) — if a player is the NBA career leader in scoring average, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage or free throw percentage
Career playoff averages (five points each) — for each category the player leads

That was the criteria used
1st Place: MJ, 149 total points
2nd Place: Wilt, 124 total points
3rd Place: Bill, 118 total points
4th Place: Jabbar, 114 total points
5th Place: Magic, 102 total points
Now adding up the current players you get (Active Players):
1st Place: Shaq, 87 total points
2nd Place: Tim, 74 total points
3rd Place: KB, 66 total points

To show the greatness of MJ he never has had a playoff series where he was outscored nor has he ever had a series where he averaged less than 26.6 ppg. Also MJ averaged over 31+ ppg in every playoffs after his rookie year (where he averaged 29.3 ppg in his rookie year)

Jordan's playoffs career average is: 33.4 PPG / 6.4 RPG / 5.7 APG / 2.1 SPG / 0.9 BPG / 49% FG / 28.59 PER



http://www.freewebs.com/bignall/simpsons_apu.jpg

[Culburn369]

Die-hard Laker fan hates Nash and Stoudemire because the Suns kicked them out of the playoffs in 2006/07.

....and then went quietly into the night themselves, O & 38, O & 39.

[lefty]

Jordan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe

[Culburn369]

- "Kobe is getting close. He's in the backseat."

- Barkley

[lefty]

- "Kobe is getting close. He's in the backseat."

- Barkley
And he will stay in the backseat

[mogrovejo]

so what if he is 17 ..

So what? Means the kid was -6 years old when Jordan had the "God disguised" game in the old Garden. Good chance his parents were in high-school at the time. He was 6 years old when Jordan played his last game for Chicago. All he knows about Jordan are highlight reels and the occasional re-run.



I agree that the difference between kobe and jordan is not as big as it seems. Personally i find kobe much more versatile. Yeah, i just said it. A celtics fan. If it not were for colorado(even a retard comprehends that there couldn't have been any rape .. so many arguments for the only logical point of view that it's not even debatable) many people would regard kobe differently. Many dumb people. Kobe is on par with anybody, he is much more fundamentally sound than mike, has a much better post game, incomparable range.


:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

You have no idea what you're talking about. You're probably 17 as well.



If you want to compare stats compare them on per shot. Any reasonably knowledgeable fan understands those written above and understands why kobe played how he played in 2005-2007 etc.

Points per shot is an equally flawed stat. Players waste possessions by going to the line and that isn't accounted with PPS.

There's a great stat to make the comparison, true-shooting percentage. Kobe has had 4 seasons with a TS%>56%. Jordan? Ten. Take out his sophomore year (injury), his come-back year in 94 and the Wizards years and that's basically his entire career.


It's so clear it amazes me how much "common sense" is that jordan is so untouchable. Just another personality cult spoon fed by the media "el suprem comandante" style.

Oh the irony.

--

It's amazing that a guy who has won a title as the best player for his team and one MVP (that he didn't deserve, it was a career award) is even in this conversation. Btw, this sounds like 2007/2008 post-Gasol a lot.

[Culburn369]

"And he will stay in the backseat"

You'd better hope so, kid, otherwise this will all look like Sunday School compared to what you'll endure.

[JamStone]

The one interesting argument is the one about explaining FG% difference with a "point per shot attempt" analysis. That's actually a pretty interesting way of looking at it. Don't really buy it completely, but that's one of the better arguments I've heard for it.

Most of the rest of it is is blatantly showered in Kobe homerism. He mentions how Michael punched Kerr and Perdue but ignored the fact Kobe punched Brian Cook in the back of the head on the team bus or how he even hits and smacks and elbows teammates in games for everyone to see or how he bashed Andrew Bynum on the street in that youtube clip. Michael may have been a horrible teammate and person as well, but you can't really argue Kobe is better.

[djohn2oo8]

Switch Kobe out with Jordan, so Kobe plays with Pippen....How many rings do they get?

[Venti Quattro]

Switch Kobe out with Jordan, so Kobe plays with Pippen....How many rings do they get?

Six.

[Culburn369]

And then Jordan refused to go to training camp, or over half the season and tried to cop a ring. Daddy & Penny smacked him upside the cocksucker and left him in Florida, dead in the ground.

[ffadicted]

lol this guy is so butthurt and lacking of knowledge that I can't even muster up the effort to respond to this blasphemy.... except for this response about how I can't respond :wakeup

[JamStone]

Switch Kobe out with Jordan, so Kobe plays with Pippen....How many rings do they get?

I think six too. At least four and maybe more tha six because he wouldn't be leaving the NBA for a year and a half because the commissioner asked him to in order to take some heat off a possible gambling scandal. In that era, after the Magic's Lakers, Bird's Celtics, and Isiah's Pistons were all finished or basically finished, there wasn't a championship team ready to take the crown except for the Bulls. The best competition in that 8 year stretch was probably the Utah Jazz and I think Kobe on the Bulls beat them both times too. I think Kobe on the Bulls beat Hakeem's Rockets as well, at least in 1994.

[lefty]

Six.
No way

Kobe is not as consistent defensively as Jordan was, and he is sitll a ballhog

I would say 3

[LakeShow]

No way

Kobe is not as consistent defensively as Jordan was, and he is sitll a ballhog

I would say 3

What do you think Jordan was?

[Allanon]

The fact that there is indeed debate on the matter shows there is some merit to the conversation.

Ironically, its the haters themselves that bring validity to the argument by actually entertaining the notion that MJ actually needs stats backing to be > Kobe. Last few years it was just a plain GTFO. :lol

Phil Jackson saying Kobe is a better buzzer beater than MJ was the newest revelation this year.

[Chieflion]

The fact that there is indeed debate on the matter shows there is some merit to the conversation.

Last few years it was just a plain GTFO.

Phil Jackson saying Kobe is a better buzzer beater than MJ was the newest revelation this year.
The debate was always there. No one said it wasn't. At the end, the winner was always Jordan. The same now, the same after Kobe retires.

[Allanon]

The debate was always there. No one said it wasn't. At the end, the winner was always Jordan. The same now, the same after Kobe retires.

You'd see a Kobe/Jordan once every few months. They were so one-sided back then that it was laughable but not any more.

There's been at least 10-15 threads about Kobe this year.... it's giving full force to a debate. Haters creating threads to defend Jordan, Kobe lovers creating threads for Kobe.

And within these debates, Kobe is surpassing MJ in some stats like clutch shots.

It's gone from a ridiculous notion to being a full on debate supported by both sides.

Both sides are fueling the fire this time. MJ vs Kobe is already being debated by both sides and Kobe's still lacking rings .... :lol

[Culburn369]

The fact that there is indeed debate on the matter shows there is some merit to the conversation.

Ironically, its the haters themselves that bring validity to the argument by actually entertaining the notion that MJ actually needs stats backing to be > Kobe. Last few years it was just a plain GTFO. :lol

Al, with the goods, comprehensive style.

[Chieflion]

You'd see a Kobe/Jordan once every few months. They were so one-sided back then that it was laughable but not any more.

There's been at least 10-15 threads about Kobe this year.... it's giving full force to a debate. Haters creating threads to defend Jordan, Kobe lovers creating threads for Kobe.

And within these debates, Kobe is surpassing Kobe in some stats like clutch shots.

It's gone from a ridiculous notion to being a full on debate supported by both sides. Both sides are fueling the fire this time. :lol
I can't help but note that the only people supporting Kobe in the debate are usually Laker fans or Kobe nuthuggers.

[Allanon]

I can't help but note that the only people supporting Kobe in the debate are usually Laker fans or Kobe nuthuggers.

And the people supporting Jordan are the Kobe haters.

That's the oddness, back then, you'd have one laughable thread and GTFO but now, there's constant debate back and forth from BOTH sides.

What was once a one-sided and ridiculous argument has people scurrying to take sides; thereby validating a comparison that the Kobe haters deny even exists.

[lefty]

What do you think Jordan was?
He had no choice when he was younger; he had a supper shitty team around him

[ElNono]

And the people supporting Jordan are the Kobe haters.

That's the oddness, back then, you'd have one laughable thread and GTFO but now, there's constant debate back and forth from BOTH sides.

What was once a one-sided and ridiculous argument has people scurrying to take sides.

There's no debate.
It STILL is a one-sided and ridiculous argument.
It's not even close really.

Jordan >>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe

And I think Kobe *IS* the best player in the NBA right now. I don't hate him at all.

[mogrovejo]

The fact that there is indeed debate on the matter shows how incredibly out-of-touch, insecure and wackos are Lakers fans.
fixed

[LakeShow]

He had no choice when he was younger; he had a supper shitty team around him

Lefty, Jordan was a ball hog his whole career.

One of my favorite Jordan moments is when Jordan was asking for the ball and Pippen passed it to Kerr for an easy 2 and Jordan went off on him on national tv for not passing him the ball. You don't get more selfish than that.

[Culburn369]

Al just whippin that Forum ass.

tee, hee.

[ElNono]

One of my favorite Jordan moments is when Jordan was asking for the ball and Pippen passed it to Kerr for an easy 2 and Jordan went off on him on national tv for not passing him the ball. You don't get more selfish than that.

Bitter Lakerfan?
What was your favorite Kobe moment? When he was bagging on Bynum on the parking lot, or when he was asking to be traded to the Clippers?

[Culburn369]

LakeShow just whippin that Forum ass.

tee, hee.

[Culburn369]

?
What was your favorite Jordan moment?

When he got kicked out of the NBA for a year.

[LakeShow]

Bitter Lakerfan?
What was your favorite Kobe moment? When he was bagging on Bynum on the parking lot, or when he was asking to be traded to the Clippers?

When he punked Duncan and Robinson in the playoffs. Posterizing them at ease. :toast

[Chieflion]

And the people supporting Jordan are the Kobe haters.

That's the oddness, back then, you'd have one laughable thread and GTFO but now, there's constant debate back and forth from BOTH sides.

What was once a one-sided and ridiculous argument has people scurrying to take sides; thereby validating a comparison that the Kobe haters deny even exists.
We are not Kobe haters. Jordan remains the better player. I still don't see how the writer, a Kobe nuthugger, needs to remove Kobe's first three years in the league to even make a comparision. Was there a need to award Kobe because he came into the league right out of high school? I don't think so. If you are not good enough right out of the bat, there is no need to make the comparision.

[Allanon]

There's no debate.
Where have you been, have a look at how many Jordan numbers and threads that have been created by the Jordan supporters recently.



It's not even close really.
If it wasn't starting to get close; people wouldn't be bothered with backing up Jordan with actual stats.

Phil's endorsing Kobe for game winners and Kobe exceeding MJ's clutch count was a pretty big revelation this year for the Kobe side. MJ isn't adding any new accolades so it's natural that Kobe is closing on MJ and beating MJ in some areas.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kobe's already reviewed every MJ achievement to determine which ones are beatable and which ones he shouldn't waste time on.



Jordan >>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe


As you can see, there are less > signs than there used to be.

I remember a couple of years it used to be Jordan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe... but it's shortening every year. And as that gap shortens, more and more Jordan supporters and Kobe supporters are taking their side.

[ElNono]

When he punked Duncan and Robinson in the playoffs. Posterizing them at ease. :toast

At least you do accept to be a bitter, envious Laker fan and Kobe cockgobbler.
Thats a positive in my book. :toast

[mogrovejo]

The writer erased Kobe's first years but didn't erase Jordan's Wizards years.

The writer was either an unborn or a pre-school kid when Jordan was playing.

[O.J Mayo]

Kobe circle jerk thread? Pity the fools. Everyone will be comparing me with Jordan. Not Kobe Bryant.

O.J Mayo > Karl Malone and John Stockton aka J.J Hickson and Goran Dragic = Michael Jordan > Kobe Bryant

That is what is going to happen. Smell ya later, the Juiceman kicked you Laker queers in the ass again.

[ElNono]

Where have you been, have a look at how many Jordan numbers and threads that have been created by the Jordan supporters recently.

I've been here. So now thread count means there's any debate?
You should read what those threads actually say, then you would know there's nothing to debate.


If it wasn't starting to get close; people wouldn't be bothered with backing up Jordan with actual stats.

It's not close. And at Kobe's age, it's not going to be close either.
The sooner you get that into your skull, the easier it's going to be to accept it.


Phil's endorsing Kobe for game winners and Kobe exceeding MJ's clutch count was pretty big.

Phil can say whatever he wants. Fact is that under his rule, MJ *ALWAYS* delivered the goods, while Kobe has not. He knows that, you know that.
Kobe is not even a good closer by any statistical measure.


As you can see, there are less > signs than there used to be. I remember a couple of years it used to be Jordan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe... but it's shortening every year. And as that gap shortens, more and more Jordan supporters and Kobe supporters are taking their side.

Whatever amount of > characters means it's not close, that's how many you need to put there.

[Allanon]

fixed

People taking sides; seems like you've joined the "non-existant" Kobe/Jordan comparison as well :lol

[LakeShow]

At least you do accept to be a bitter, envious Laker fan and Kobe cockgobbler.
Thats a positive in my book. :toast

Lame. Just calling it like I see it but John Starks was one of my favorite players back in the day. :lol

btw, i had the opportunity to see both players entire careers.

[O.J Mayo]

Look at all the gay Laker fans trying to make it sound like Kobe Bryant is on the same tier as Michael Jordan.

Tier 1
O.J Mayo

Tier 2
Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain

Tier 3
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon

Tier 4
Everybody else, they all just role players.


The Greatest of all time in the near future just kicked your ass again.

[Allanon]

I've been here. So now thread count means there's any debate?
You should read what those threads actually say, then you would know there's nothing to debate.

Yes, the threads are validating a Kobe/MJ comparison. If it was so laughable, there wouldn't be so many opposing threads.

New threads are popping up because the last one didn't stop the Jordan/Kobe comparisons ...and that's the irony of it all right there. By debating the comparison, Jordan lovers are validating the comparison itself :lol



It's not close. And at Kobe's age, it's not going to be close either.
The sooner you get that into your skull, the easier it's going to be to accept it.
Most of Jordan's glory didn't come until this age. People forget Jordan didn't start his 2nd 3-peat until he was 33. Kobe can have 6 rings by 33.



Phil can say whatever he wants. Fact is that under his rule, MJ *ALWAYS* delivered the goods, while Kobe has not. He knows that, you know that.
Kobe is not even a good closer by any statistical measure.
Sorry if I believe Phil's opinion carries considerably more weight than your opinion. Phil and the stats say Kobe is more clutch.



Whatever amount of > characters means it's not close, that's how many you need to put there.
My point is it's shortening with every year.

[ElNono]

Lame. Just calling it like I see it but John Starks was one of my favorite players back in the day. :lol

btw, i had the opportunity to see both players entire careers.

:lol

I just see this whole thing as the typical contemporary discussion when a player is doing good. It's like when Shaq was doing good, everyone was on the Shaq bandwagon and he was the best big ever, etc etc etc... nowadays, a lot of people dog on him like he's got aids, especially Laker fans...

From a fan that is not a Laker OR Bulls fan, and after watching both guys complete careers, it's not really close: Jordan was so much more superior and dominant than Kobe. Then I know bitter piston fan will come around and talk about quality of opposition and blah blah blah, but they're all excuses.

[LakeShow]

:lol

I just see this whole thing as the typical contemporary discussion when a player is doing good. It's like when Shaq was doing good, everyone was on the Shaq bandwagon and he was the best big ever, etc etc etc... nowadays, a lot of people dog on him like he's got aids, especially Laker fans...

From a fan that is not a Laker OR Bulls fan, and after watching both guys complete careers, it's not really close: Jordan was so much more superior and dominant than Kobe. Then I know bitter piston fan will come around and talk about quality of opposition and blah blah blah, but they're all excuses.

:toast

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that Kobe > Jordan but I agree with the topic. They both have accomplished things in this league that the other can not touch. Kobe is still playing and playing at a very high level. It is not unreasonable to believe that he will surpass Jordan as the Goat. I am one of those believers.

[ElNono]

Yes, the threads are validating a Kobe/MJ comparison. If it was so laughable, there wouldn't be so many opposing threads.

That you think they are doesn't mean that they do.


New threads are popping up because the last one didn't stop the Jordan/Kobe comparisons ...and that's the irony of it all right there. By debating the comparison, Jordan lovers are validating the comparison itself

We're inundated with Laker fans these days. And the fact they try to keep pushing this retarded comparisons is what is bringing up these threads.


Most of Jordan's glory didn't come until this age. People forget Jordan didn't start his 2nd 3-peat until he was 33. Kobe can have 6 rings by 33.

Jordan was dominating at this age. He already won 3 dominating the entire league. Kobe is probably the best player in the NBA right now, but you could only say that about a season or two ago, when Gasol came around. And he still nowhere near as dominant as Jordan was.


Sorry if I believe Phil's opinion carries considerably more weight than your opinion. Phil and the stats say Kobe is more clutch.

You don't need to apologize. After all, Kobe is earning Phil his juicy paychecks today, not Jordan. And I'd love to see the stats you refer to.

[lefty]

Lefty, Jordan was a ball hog his whole career.

One of my favorite Jordan moments is when Jordan was asking for the ball and Pippen passed it to Kerr for an easy 2 and Jordan went off on him on national tv for not passing him the ball. You don't get more selfish than that.
Yeah, but Mile is the GOAT, so he can do that :lol

But I remember during the 96-97 season, Kerr had the ball but had no space to operate, the shot clock was winding down, and Jordan ran cross court to set a screen that allowed Kerr to drive for a layup
That wasn't a set play, and I like his sense of initiative

[Venti Quattro]

Jordan is not even the GOAT.

It's either Russell or Kareem. Please.

Eventually, Kobe will surpass Jordan. Take off your homer goggles for once. Kobe will be playing more years then Jordan, and it will be inevitable. It's just natural that for sometime a great one will be overtaken by a greater one.

[Allanon]

That you think they are doesn't mean that they do.

We're inundated with Laker fans these days. And the fact they try to keep pushing this retarded comparisons is what is bringing up these threads.

That's the funny thing right there. Back then, the comparison would be shut down after the first thread. Now there is actually a comparison because the Jordan supporters are actually making it into a comparison.



Jordan was dominating at this age. He already won 3 dominating the entire league. Kobe is probably the best player in the NBA right now, but you could only say that about a season or two ago, when Gasol came around. And he still nowhere near as dominant as Jordan was.
The keyword is still. Jordan was still dominant at age 37. If Kobe keeps this up, he would have been dominant for almost 10 years. Time will tell.



You don't need to apologize. After all, Kobe is earning Phil his juicy paychecks today, not Jordan. And I'd love to see the stats you refer to.
Phil has never been one to put Kobe above Jordan; but he's changing, just as this comparison has changed from laughable to pulling out the stats to compare

And since you asked for the stats to compare, Kobe has more buzzer beaters than Jordan and still 5 more years to add to his total. Jordan has 25, Kobe has now reached 28.

[ElNono]

The keyword is still. Jordan was still dominant at age 37. If Kobe keeps this up, he would have been dominant for almost 10 years. Time will tell.

What? Kobe has been the best player in the league for 1 or 2 years, tops.

/thread

[Allanon]

What? Kobe has been the best player in the league for 2 years, tops.

/thread

He scored 81 in 2005/2006.

Kobe was the only player to ever outscore an entire team through 3 quarters that same season 62-61.

[ElNono]

He scored 81 in 2005.

And? He was not dominating.
Duncan won a championship in 2005.
Steve Nash was the league MVP.

[Allanon]

And? He was not dominating.
Duncan won a championship in 2005.
Steve Nash was the league MVP.

We were talking about the best player, not the best winner.

You include Jordan's non championship years in his dominance, but you take that away from Kobe?

Kobe has clearly been dominating since that 81 point game in the 2005 season.

[ElNono]

We were talking about the best player, not the best winner. You include Jordan's non championship years in his dominance, but you take that away from Kobe? Kobe has clearly been dominating since that 81 point game.

Who said I include Jordan non-championship years in his dominance?
I actually don't.

I mean, Lebron set this record in 2005:

Youngest player to record a triple-double (20 years, 20 days).[3]
Recorded 27 points, 11 rebounds, and 10 assists on January 19, 2005 vs. Portland Trail Blazers.

Was he the most dominant NBA player in 2005 because he set a new record in a single game? This is how retarded the points brought up in this conversation are.

[Allanon]

Who said I include Jordan non-championship years in his dominance?
I actually don't.

I mean, Lebron set this record in 2005:

Youngest player to record a triple-double (20 years, 20 days).[3]
Recorded 27 points, 11 rebounds, and 10 assists on January 19, 2005 vs. Portland Trail Blazers.

Was he the most dominant NBA player in 2005 because he set a new record in a single game? This is how retarded the points brought up in this conversation are.

Ok fair enough. Jordan was dominant in 6 years. Kobe has 4 with a good 5 years left to be dominant and win championships.

[lefty]

This 925489th Jordan/Kobe thread sucks

[ElNono]

Ok fair enough. Jordan was dominant in 6 years. Kobe in 2.

FIFY. We can resume this conversation when Kobe wins his 6th NBA Finals MVP and his 5th NBA MVP trophy. That would be no less than 4 1/2 seasons from now, if my math is correct.

[Allanon]

FIFY. We can resume this conversation when Kobe wins his 6th NBA Finals MVP and his 5th NBA MVP trophy. That would be no less than 4 1/2 seasons from now, if my math is correct.

Winning championships (Kobe has 4) isn't enough?

Awards? How many Finals MVPs does Bill Russell have and how many rings? :lol

[ElNono]

This 925489th Jordan/Kobe thread sucks

I blame bored lakerfans...

[ElNono]

Winning championships (Kobe has 4) isn't enough?
Awards? How many Finals MVPs does Bill Russell have? :lol

You're comparing Kobe to Jordan, not Russell. Please stay on topic.

[Allanon]

You're comparing Kobe to Jordan, not Russell. Please stay on topic.

:lol

[ElNono]

:lol

Are you aware that the Finals MVP trophy is called the 'Bill Russell NBA Finals Most Valuable Player Award' and started to be awarded in 1969?

[Allanon]

Are you aware that the Finals MVP trophy is called the 'Bill Russell NBA Finals Most Valuable Player Award' and started to be awarded in 1969?

Are you aware that Bill Russell never even got 1 Finals MVP? :lol

[Venti Quattro]

Are you aware that Bill Russell never even got 1 Finals MVP? :lol
Really?

[ElNono]

Are you aware that Bill Russell never even got 1 Finals MVP? :lol

He could have only received the 1969 one, since that's when they started with the Finals MVP award... Instead they handed it to Jerry West as consolation prize. First and only time that the NBA Finals MVP went to a player of a losing team.

The logo was on shady business back then already... :lol

[Allanon]

He could have only received the 1969 one, since that's when they started with it... Instead they handed it to Jerry West as consolation prize. First and only time that the NBA Finals MVP went to a player of a losing team.

The logo was on shady business back then already... :lol

Jerry West - 1 Finals MVP
Bill Russell - 0 Finals MVP

Obviously, these awards are flawed and don't really mean much.

[ElNono]

Obviously, these awards are flawed and don't really mean much.

Actually, as far as the way they've been awarded in the Jordan/Kobe era, which is what we're discussing, they reflect pretty well who the best and most dominant player on the team that received it was.

Perhaps the only exceptions since 1990 being Chauncey Billups and Tony Parker.

[lefty]

I blame bored lakerfans...
Bored and insecure

[Allanon]

Actually, as far as the way they've been awarded in the Jordan/Kobe era, which is what we're discussing, they reflect pretty well who the best and most dominant player on the team that received it was.

Perhaps the only exceptions since 1990 being Chauncey Billups and Tony Parker.

Except that the man with the most rings ever never even got one...even in a Championship year.

That's flawed.

[ElNono]

Except that the man with the most rings ever never even got one...even in a Championship year.

That's flawed.

It's not flawed at all... In 11 seasons he could only have received it once, in the twilight of his career. He didn't get it. Much like Duncan didn't get it in 2007.
That doesn't mean Bill didn't deserve it on the other 10 seasons. They just were not handing it out.

I am glad, however, that you agree with me that since 1990 the award is pretty indicative of who was the most dominant player on their respective team.

[Allanon]

It's not flawed at all... In 11 seasons he could only have received it once, in the twilight of his career. He didn't get it. Much like Duncan didn't get it in 2007.
That doesn't mean Bill didn't deserve it on the other 10 seasons. They just were not handing it out.

I am glad, however, that you agree with me that since 1990 the award is pretty indicative of who was the most dominant player on their respective team.

I don't agree, it's flawed.

Bill Russell won the NBA Championship in 69, but didn't win the Finals MVP. How is this OK?

It's a flawed award if a man with 11 rings can't even win 1 Finals MVP.

[ambchang]

This "article" was so full of fail:

1) Removed parts of the career of Kobe where it hurts his averages (1st few years), but not Jordan (Washington years).
2) Ignored the negative effects of missed shots, and only looked at the immediate results (made vs. missed basket).
3) Cherry-picked teammates as an example of all. Jordan ran Kwame Brown to the ground, and he was proven right. Brown has shown that he sucked. Kobe ran Shaq out of town and ruined a dynasty.
4) Kobe thrown his teammates under the bus not in front of other players, coaches, media, or what not. He did it to the cops.
5) Grant and Armstrong became all-stars because of the publicity that came with 3 titles. The writer honestly thought that fans voted Armstrong in because he was averaging 14 ppg?
6) Jordan did NOT score 63 points in the 95 playoffs. The highest he scored was 48 points vs. the Hornets that year in the playoffs. I am not sure where this assclown got his numbers from. If he was referring to Jordan's 2nd year, indicate that! And Jordan in his 20s is different from Jordan in his 30s, against different teams, playing a different role.
7) Trevor Ariza is having a career year away from Kobe. Smush Parker averaged career highs with the Lakers because he played the most minutes. Chris Mihm made no significant improvements with the lakers, and only had better stats because he played more minutes (see their per 36 stats). Luke Walton actually played his entire career with Kobe, so I am not sure how he can say Walton improved with Kobe.
8) THe comparison in eras doesn't even make sense. Kobe played with 4 HoFers and failed to win the championship, losing to a team with NO HoFers. The Wade led heat was a one-man show, with a cameo from a fading HoFer.
9) How the hell can you compare how good a defender the two are when you are talking about their teammates. Pippen was a better defender than Artest, therefore Jordan is only as good as Kobe? What the hell kind of logic is that?
10) Dismissed Jordan's significant point advantage in the playoffs because Jordan shot more shots? How else could Jordan have averaged more points? By shooting less shots? Kobe refused to shoot in a playoff elimination game, Jordan never did that. Kobe choked horribly in the 04 Finals, practically giving the Pistons the series. He scored 22 points on 7-22 shooting in a Finals elimination game in 08 vs. the Celtics, 8-21 for 25 points the game before that (critical Game 5). He played significantly worse as the series went on. How is that clutch?

An absolute piece of crap of an article, if you can even call it an article.

[ElNono]

I don't agree, it's flawed.
Bill Russell won the NBA Championship in 69, but didn't win the Finals MVP. How is this OK?
It's a flawed award if a man with 11 rings can't even win 1 Finals MVP.

If anything, you could claim it was flawed that particular year, to which I would agree. The fact that it has never happened in the NBA ever again should tell you that it was an exception, not a rule.

Again, Kobe dominance aligns pretty well with the arrival of Gasol, not coincidentally. We'll see how long it lasts.

[Allanon]

If anything, you could claim it was flawed that particular year, to which I would agree. The fact that it has never happened in the NBA ever again should tell you that it was an exception, not a rule.

If we can accept it's flawed in 1 year, who's to say it wasn't flawed in other years?



Again, Kobe dominance aligns pretty well with the arrival of Gasol, not coincidentally. We'll see how long it lasts.

And Jordan dominance aligns pretty well with Pippen, not coincidentally. I don't know if it's true but in another thread I saw these rather remarkable stats:

Jordan 1-9 in Playoffs without Pippen
Jordan < 40% winning without Pippen

[ElNono]

If we can accept it's flawed in 1 year, who's to say it wasn't flawed in other years?

Because you want to conveniently dismiss it for 3 years in a row, not a single, 'fluke', year. When Jordan got his, there was no doubt who was the best player on the court.



And Jordan dominance aligns pretty well with Pippen, not coincidentally. I don't know if it's true but in another thread I saw these rather remarkable stats:

Jordan 1-9 in Playoffs without Pippen
Jordan < 40% winning without Pippen

Kobe failed to make the playoffs being the leader of his team. Something Jordan never did even without Pippen.

[hater]

Because you want to conveniently dismiss it for 3 years in a row, not a single, 'fluke', year. When Jordan got his, there was no doubt who was the best player on the court.



Kobe failed to make the playoffs being the leader of his team. Something Jordan never did even without Pippen.

/thread

[Allanon]

Because you want to conveniently dismiss it for 3 years in a row, not a single, 'fluke', year. When Jordan got his, there was no doubt who was the best player on the court.

So you admit there are flukes in this award.



Kobe failed to make the playoffs being the leader of his team. Something Jordan never did even without Pippen. That said, sure, he dominated when he had a established team around him, including a great sidekick. That said, there was never any doubt who was number 1 and who was number 2.

Missing the Playoffs will never be a sticking point if Kobe gets 7+ rings.

The sidekick issue. Shaq > Pippen > Pau ... Jordan couldn't win without Pippen, Kobe couldn't win without Shaq/Pau. Shaq's embarrassing last few years is tipping the scales in favor of Kobe. And Pau's 0 Playoff wins prior to Kobe are also a good focal point.

You could even say right now Kobe > Shaq.

But not really an issue either for Kobe or MJ.

[ElNono]

So you admit there are flukes in this award.

Sure, about 10 posts ago when I brought up Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups.


Missing the Playoffs will never be a sticking point if Kobe gets 7+ rings.

I'll give you that. That's a big IF however, and we can continue this conversation then...


The sidekick issue. Shaq > Pippen > Pau ... Jordan couldn't win without Pippen, Kobe couldn't win without Shaq/Pau. Shaq's embarrassing last few years is tipping the scales in favor of Kobe. And Pau's 0 Playoff wins prior to Kobe are also a good focal point.

There's no sidekick issue, much like there's no GOAT issue.
All these guys had good teams around them. Duncan, Shaq, Jordan, Kobe... There simply was no doubt who was number 1 and who was number 2,3,4,5...

[Muser]

Yes! Another Kobe vs MJ thread!! Love how the article twists the stats in kobes favor.

[Muser]

This thread is reaching Manu > Dirk homerism levels

[Culburn369]

Something Jordan never did even without Pippen.

Jordan couldn't do shit without Pippen.

[Double-Up]

I hope you all are still having this conversation when I get off work cause I'm gonna chin check all you Kobe cocksucking bitches.

[Culburn369]

Yeah, have fun at wo*k.

[Allanon]

Sure, about 10 posts ago when I brought up Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups.

We agree on the flukes then.



I'll give you that. That's a big IF however, and we can continue this conversation then...

This whole conversation is based on Kobe winning more rings.

Nobody here is saying that Kobe is > Jordan...right now. But the possibility is certainly there; especially if Kobe repeats this year.



There's no sidekick issue, much like there's no GOAT issue.
All these guys had good teams around them. Duncan, Shaq, Jordan, Kobe... There simply was no doubt who was number 1 and who was number 2,3,4,5...

In ShaqKobe, the debate will be brought up. Shaq never could make his free throws, and Kobe was always the 4th quarter man. Shaq's own poor free throw shooting hurting the team, his being over-weight and out of shape, Hack-a-Shaq and his failures of the last few years and Kobe's dominance will shed new light on who was the real man in the first 3-peat.

It's early and contingent upon Kobe winning alot more rings; but I have a feeling Shaq's going to be riding Kobe's coattails when it's all said and done.

[Galileo]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/311555-why-kobejordan-debate-is-closer-than-it-seems

Why Kobe/Jordan Debate Is Closer Than It Seems

by Marcel Mansour (http://bleacherreport.com/users/18185-Marcel-Mansour) Written on December 19, 2009


As Kobe Bryant continues to add to his already-brilliant legacy, the debate between him and Michael Jordan rages on.
The majority of the NBA fans believe that the comparisons are foolish and that Jordan is still much better than Kobe.
However, I am going to show why Kobe is closer to Jordan than is perceived.
The following are major reasons against Kobe when people compare him to Jordan and why they are incorrect.

1. Jordan Simply Has Much Better Stats Than Kobe in Every Area
Jordan's career stats are that he averaged 30.1 points, 6.2 rebounds, 5.3 assists, 2.3 steals, and 0.8 blocks per game, while shooting 49.7 percent from the field, 32.7 percent from the three-point line, and 83.5 percent from the free throw line.
On the other hand, Kobe has averaged 25.2 points, 5.3 rebounds, 4.6 assists, 1.5 steals, and 0.6 blocks per game, while shooting 45.5 percent from the field, 34 percent from the three-point line, and 84 percent from the free throw line.
At first look, it seems that Jordan dominates Kobe, but Kobe's career averages are severely hurt by his first few seasons when he did not play much, due to him coming out of high school.
Now when you look at Kobe's career stats without his first three seasons (Jordan played three years of college), his numbers are 28.2 points, 5.9 rebounds, 5.2 assists, 1.7 steals, and 0.6 blocks per game, while shooting 45.8 percent from the field, 34.1 percent from the three-point line, and 84.4 percent from the free throw line.
Kobe is just on par with Jordan on all stats except for points, steals, and field goal percentage.
Now, the reason why Kobe averages two less points than Jordan is because Jordan averaged 1.5 more field goal attempts per game than Kobe without his first three seasons.
Jordan was simply slightly better than Kobe at steals, which really is not that important.

2. Jordan Shot a Much Higher Percentage from the Field Than Kobe
This is one of the worst arguments in favor of Jordan compared to Kobe because Kobe shot many more three-point shots than Jordan did, thus resulting in a lower field goal percentage.
Instead of looking at field goal percentage to compare the two, I like to look at a stat that is never used, but is the best indicator in field goal—three-point and free throw efficiency and that is points per field goal attempt.
Jordan averaged 1.316 points per field goal attempt in his career, while Kobe has averaged 1.312 points per field goal attempt—a difference so small in should not ever be argued against Kobe.
On average, when Jordan shot 20 times, he scored 26.3 points, while Kobe averages 26.2 points per every 20-shot attempts. I think this pretty much eliminates the field goal percentage argument in favor of Jordan, as they are basically even.

3. Jordan Is a Better Teammate/Person Than Kobe Is
Jordan was a terrible teammate compared to Kobe, as he punched teammates Steve Kerr and Will Perdue during practice and ran coach Doug Collins because he wanted a more team-oriented system.
The most obvious way to show how bad of a teammate Jordan was is to look at how he treated Kwame Brown when Jordan was on the Wizards.
At the time, Jordan was still a good player, but past his prime and in a situation where he could lead a young and rebuilding Wizards team with a talented, first overall pick in Brown.
However, instead of supporting and trying to lift up Brown's spirits after some struggles that were bound to occur as he was coming out of high school, Jordan called Brown "a flaming faggot" and he used several other derogatory words towards Brown repeatedly, which obviously destroyed Brown's confidence, as he most likely idolized Jordan.
This shows that even after his prime, Jordan only cared about himself, and his attitude towards Kwame is a major reason why Kwame became a bust, as he has never been confident in his game, which resulted in him not being able to handle all of Jordan's insults and the pressure of a franchise on his shoulders.
On top of that, Jordan even flew in his old high school teammate—who his high school coach chose over Jordan for the varsity basketball team—to his Hall of Fame speech just to make fun of him, and he even insulted Dean Smith for leaving him off the Sports Illustrated cover because he was a freshman.
Jordan's speech was bitter, petty, and pathetic. Jordan also had several affairs while married and numerous gambling problems.
Kobe has been a bit of an ass himself, but, besides him cheating on his wife and then having his image destroyed because of false rape charges, he has been pretty clean himself.
Sure, he helped run off coach Phil Jackson, but Jackson was also willing to return to coach him just one year later.
Kobe also received most of the blame for Shaq leaving the Lakers and ending the dynasty, but, as time goes on, it seems like Shaq had as much blame as anyone.
He has now left all four teams he played for on bad terms and wanted too much money for Jerry Buss to be willing to pay—which was the real reason why Shaq was traded, not because Kobe demanded him to, as he himself was debating whether to sign with the Lakers when the Shaq trade went through.

4. Jordan Made His Teammates Better Than Kobe Does
Jordan's teammates have been extremely undervalued, as is his impact on the Bulls.
First, let's look at how other teams fared when their best players missed an entire season.
When Bill Russell retired in 1969, the Celtics went from 48-34 (championship) to a 34-48 record and missing the playoffs.
Now, when Wilt retired in 1973, the Lakers went from 60-22 to 47-35 and a first-round exit.
Then, when Larry Bird missed 76 games in the 1988-1989 season, the Celtics went from 57-25 to 42-40 and getting swept in the first round of the playoffs.
When Oscar retired from the Bucks in 1974, the team went from 59 wins (Finals appearance) to 38 wins and missing the playoffs.
Finally, when Magic retired from the Lakers, the team went from 58 to 43 wins and losing in the first round of the playoffs.
As I have shown above, every time a legend left or missed an entire season, the team averaged 15.5 wins less than the season before.
Now, you would expect the same thing to occur with Jordan suddenly retiring before the 1993-1994 season and the Bulls replacing him with Pete Myers, a player from the CBA.
However, the team went from 57 wins the year before to 55 without Jordan and 51-21 in the games Pippen played in, which is a 70.83 winning percentage, while the season before with Jordan, the team had a 69.5 winning percentage, lower with Jordan than without him.
In 1993-1994, the Bulls made the second round of the playoffs and lost to the Knicks in seven games only because of the worst call in NBA history, which cost the Bulls game five of the series.
Had the Bulls won that series, which they would have had it not been for that call, then the Bulls would've face the Pacers in the ECF and likely would've defeated them, as they beat them 4-1 in the season's series and matched up well with them.
That means that the Bulls would've at least made the Finals without Jordan if not for that call and at least gone to six games against the Rockets.
Here is a video of the call (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4WjOUXZr7Q) and of the reaction years later. (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=adande_ja&page=Hollins-090529)
Another fact about Jordan and his teammates is that his best teammates Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant and B.J. Armstrong from his first three-peat all played better without him than with him.
Without Jordan, Pippen averaged 22 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 2.9 steals, and 0.8 blocks per game, while shooting 49.1 percent from the field and being selected to the All-NBA First Team and All-Defensive First Team, while finishing third in the MVP voting.
He also became only the second player ever to lead his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks per game.
Next, both Grant and Armstrong made their only All-Star appearances that year without Jordan, as Grant averaged 15.1 points, 11 rebounds, 3.4 assists, 1.1 steals, and 1.2 blocks, while shooting 52.4 percent from the field and Armstrong averaging 14.8 points, 4 assists, 2.1 rebounds, one steal, and only 1.6 turnovers, while shooting 47.6 percent from the field, 44.4 percent from the three-point line, and 85.5 percent from the free throw line.
Overall, when you combine the nine players who played on both the 92-93 and 93-94 Bulls, you will see that the players shot 48.6 percent from the field without Jordan, compared to 48.2 percent with Jordan, while teammates of Magic and Bird had their field goal percentage decrease without their leader.
This is shown by both Pippen and Grant, who even though they had more responsibility, shot nearly two percent better from the field than the year before with Jordan.
Finally, when Jordan did come back the next season after missing most of the regular season, the Bulls were defeated in six games to the Magic, one less game than the year before.
That year they had Jordan, but no Grant, who was actually on the Magic team that defeated the Bulls.
This is overlooked because people just say that he was rusty, even though Jordan scored a record 63 points in the playoffs when he only played 18 games in the regular season that season and had scored 55 points against the Knicks earlier in the year.
Kobe, on the other hand, helped make Smush Parker into a respectable starting point guard as he averaged 11.5 points, 3.7 assists, 3.3 rebounds, and 1.7 steals, while shooting a solid 44.7 percent from the field and 36.6 percent from the three-point line.
The year after he left the Lakers, he was waived by the Miami Heat, who had the worst record in the league at the time.
Kobe also helped speed up Andrew Bynum's development by feeding him the ball to help increase his confidence, as Bynum became a beast down low until knee injuries cut off his last two seasons.
Also, Luke Walton, Chris Mihm, and Trevor Ariza all significantly improved when they played with Kobe.
Kobe was also able to lead a team with Odom, Walton, Brown, and Parker in the starting lineup to 45 wins in arguably the most difficult conference ever, while Jordan has never had a winning season in five years without Pippen.

5. Jordan Played in a Better Era Than Kobe Does
Another major reason why people say Jordan is better than Kobe is that he played in a better and more competitive era than Kobe currently plays in.
I think that is false as I believe that the '90s are one of the weakest eras in the league's history.
The league was watered down by expansion, as teams in Miami, Minnesota, Charlotte, and Orlando were all created in 1989-1990.
Jordan also did not have to face any great teams. The best teams in the '90s were the the Rockets, Jazz, Super Sonics, Knicks, and Suns.
The Rockets had one great player in Hakeem and no sidekick even close to Pippen's caliber, except for the 1994-1995 season when Jordan could not lead the Bulls to the Finals.
The Suns had Barkley, but Kevin Johnson was not as good as Pippen, and Majerle was not as good as Grant.
Then, the Sonics had two really good players in Payton and Kemp, but no legend, and no great third option.
The Knicks had Ewing and no great second option, as Starks was more of a third option.
Finally, the Jazz had a great 1-2 in Malone and Stockton, but the Bulls had better third and fourth options as they had Rodman and Kukoc, compared to Hornacek and Russell.
Kobe has played against a great San Antonio Spurs team throughout his career who are led by Tim Duncan, one of the 10 greatest players ever, who has had two all-star caliber players with him.
Then, the Phoenix Suns have had one of the most talented offensive teams led by two-time MVP award winner Steve Nash.
Also, the Detroit Pistons had four or five players worthy of an All-Star selection and were one of the best defensive teams ever along with the Celtics, who had three Hall of Famers.

6. Jordan Is a Better Defender Than Kobe Is
A major reason why people say Jordan is that he was a better defender than Kobe is mostly because he won a Defensive Player of the Year Award, while Kobe hasn't.
However, while Jordan was great defensively, he is not better than Kobe.
Both Kobe and Jordan were great one-on-one defenders and good team defenders who were able to defend players of multiple positions.
Jordan was a better shot blocker and thief than Kobe is, but Kobe has never played with a great perimeter defender like Jordan played with Pippen.
Pippen was always the player on the Bulls who defended the opponent's best offensive player, and he was so versatile that he could guard points guards through power forwards.
Kobe has not had that luxury until this season, when the Lakers got Artest and, even though Artest is excellent, he is not as good and versatile as Pippen was, as he does not have the quickness to guard point or even some shooting guards.
Also, there was a severe lack of very good offensive shooting guards when Jordan played.
The only really good offensive two guards in the late '80s and '90s were Clyde Drexler, Mitch Richmond, and Reggie Miller, while Kobe has had to deal with Dwyane Wade, Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Ray Allen, Manu Ginobili, Paul Pierce, Joe Johnson, and Miller throughout his career.
Finally, Kobe has already made the All Defensive First Team seven times and the second team twice, while Jordan was selected to the All Defensive First Team nine times.

7. Jordan Is Much More Clutch Than Kobe Is
Another major argument in favor of Jordan is that he is more clutch than Kobe.
Kobe has already tied Jordan in terms of making game winning shots after his shot against the Bucks raised his total to 27—the same as Jordan.
In his career, Jordan averaged 33.4 points, 6.4 rebounds, and 5.7 assists, while shooting 48.7 percent from the field.
Kobe has averaged 25 points, 5.1 rebounds, and 4.7 assists on 44.7 percent shooting, but that is also because of his first three seasons when his minutes were limited.
However, when you remove those three seasons, Kobe's career playoff stats are 27.6 points, 5.5 rebounds, and 5.2 assists on 45 percent shooting from the field.
Jordan averages six more points because he averages 25.1 shot attempts, compared to 22 for Kobe (without first three seasons).
Kobe is also hurt in rebounding because of Shaq taking up so much space in the middle.
Finally, Jordan was an excellent postseason performer, but Kobe has been, as well, and they are both amazing during game-winning situations, as they each have 27 game-winning shots.
Overall, Kobe's resume is not as good as Jordan's, but he still has a lot of time to add on and eventually pass Jordan with a couple of more championships.
Kobe's career stats are better than it looks, while Jordan's teammates are extremely underrated.
Personally, I believe that when Kobe retires, he will be considered the greatest player ever, as he will win two or three more rings.

I agree with this analysis.

But it is because Jordan is over-rated, not because Kobe is under-rated.

Akeem Olajuwon was always better than Jordan, and Tim Duncan has always been better than Kobe.

:flag:

:lobt:

:lobt2:

:rollin

:ihit

:nope

:lmao

[ElNono]

This whole conversation is based on Kobe winning more rings. Nobody here is saying that Kobe is > Jordan...right now. But the possibility is certainly there; especially if Kobe repeats this year.

Wait, we went from 7+ rings to repeat this year in a single post? Who are you trying to kid?

Kobe needs to lead this Laker team to at least 3 or more championships dominating the rest of the league to even enter the discussion. That's exactly why it's not even close right now.


In ShaqKobe, the debate will be brought up. Shaq never could make his free throws, and Kobe was always the 4th quarter man. Shaq's own poor free throw shooting hurting the team, his being over-weight and out of shape, Hack-a-Shaq and his failures of the last few years and Kobe's current dominance will shed new light on who was the real man in the first 3-peat.

Duncan free throws were a always a problem too, that doesn't mean he didn't dominate. Then he has good players around him that take advantage of double teams, etc (like Manu or Tony). Early 2000 Shaq is the same thing, with Kobe playing the role player. Shaq clearly demonstrated who the dominant guy was when he left for Miami and still won another one. He didn't need Kobe or Phil to pull that one out.

You can dog all you want on Shaq now, but he's 6 years older than Kobe. Obviously he's on the decline now while Kobe is peaking.


It's early and contingent upon Kobe winning alot more rings; but I have a feeling Shaq's going to be riding Kobe's coattails when it's all said and done.

Maybe he will, maybe he won't. That has really nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[Allanon]

Wait, we went from 7+ rings to repeat this year in a single post? Who are you trying to kid?

Kobe needs to lead this Laker team to at least 3 or more championships dominating the rest of the league to even enter the discussion. That's exactly why it's not even close right now.

Read my post, I said the possibility is certainly there especially if Kobe repeats this year. Kobe don't repeat this year, there's no chance.

I said last year Kobe had to win 2009 in order to stay in the running. And I say again, he has to repeat this year to keep up.

I'm trying to help you out here :lol



Duncan free throws were a always a problem too, that doesn't mean he didn't dominate. Then he has good players around him that take advantage of double teams, etc (like Manu or Tony).

Duncan's Free Throws were good enough. Shaq's weren't. Shaq often had to sit his ass out because teams were Hack-a-Shaqing and the Lakers were losing.



Early 2000 Shaq is the same thing, with Kobe playing the role player. Shaq clearly demonstrated who the dominant guy was when he left for Miami and still won another one. He didn't need Kobe or Phil to pull that one out.

And Kobe won a Championship with a player of less caliber than Dwayne Wade.



You can dog all you want on Shaq now, but he's 6 years older than Kobe. Obviously he's on the decline now while Kobe is peaking.

Maybe he will, maybe he won't. That has really nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Sure it does. The worse Shaq looks, the better Kobe looks. As dominant as Shaq was, he never could get more than 4 rings and it speaks to his work ethic and determination.

History will be re-written if Kobe goes on to 7 rings... the Hack-a-Shaq, Shaq being cancerous and Shaq's sitting in the 4th quarters will see to that.

Shaq talking smack about Kobe, Wade and Nash has already brought up who really was the problem in LA.

[Culburn369]

Kobe needs to lead this Laker team to at least 3 or more championships dominating the rest of the league to even enter the discussion.

2 more.

[DrHouse]

What I find hilarious is the fact that everyone is drawing conclusions about Kobe when his career isn't even close to being over.

Everyone thought Kobe would start declining this season, but the exact opposite has happened. He is shooting the best FG % of his career.

[Culburn369]

The Dr. is making a house call!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Culburn369]

Punish 'em Luva!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mitch Kupchak]

Gotta do what Jordan did in his mid 30's. Win 3 straight. Or 3 more titles. Records Kobe has get/can get before it's all said and done:

Reach the 7 title plateau.
Break Kareem's scoring record


AND if he's playing by 36 or 37, those 2 records could very be well be broken..
Thus cementing his legacy as the NBA GOAT

[Culburn369]

Sounds reasonable, Brother Mitch.

[ElNono]

Duncan's Free Throws were good enough. Shaq's weren't. Shaq often had to sit his ass out because teams were Hack-a-Shaqing and the Lakers were losing.

He was there when it mattered. You can't Hack-a-Shaq in the last two minutes of the game.


And Kobe won a Championship with a player of less caliber than Dwayne Wade.

But last year Laker's team was a better team overall than that Miami team.


Sure it does. The worse Shaq looks, the better Kobe looks. As dominant as Shaq was, he never could get more than 4 rings and it speaks to his work ethic and determination.

So you agree those are Shaq's rings. What Shaq looks like now has absolutely nothing to do with what Shaq looked like in 2000.


History will be re-written if Kobe goes on to 7 rings... the Hack-a-Shaq, Shaq being cancerous and Shaq's sitting in the 4th quarters will see to that.

It will be rewritten in that Kobe would have won 4 rings being the leader, effectively catching up to Duncan and Shaq.
You can talk all you want about Hack-a-Shaq, (which virtually applies only to two games in the year 2000 against the Blazers and the Pacers), but Lakers still won those games and Shaq was still the most dominant player in those series.


Shaq talking smack about Kobe, Wade and Nash has already brought up who really was the problem in LA.

This is where reduce yourself to the typical Laker fan by doggin' on Shaq...

[ElNono]

Gibberish

Gibberish

Gibberish

Gibberish

Gibberish

Gibberish

This actually supports my point that this is only a topic of conversation here because of the infestation of Lakerfans. There's little doubt among those non-Laker fans (except for bitter Piston/Celtic fan) that there's nothing to discuss here.

[Cane]

ElNono, this forum and especially this thread is no place for reason or logic. Its just Kobe trolls circle jerking eachother. Get with the program!

[Allanon]

He was there when it mattered. You can't Hack-a-Shaq in the last two minutes of the game.

What are you talking about? Sure you can Hack-a-Shaq in the last two minutes of a game, teams did that all the time. That's why you never gave Shaq the ball in those last 2 minutes unless he could just dunk it right away. If Shaq had to dribble even once, he was a team liability.



But last year Laker's team was a better team overall than that Miami team.
You mean that team with Gasoft, Odumb and "Delusional" Ariza? I recently came across some of your comments on "Gasoft" in the past...I wonder if you had any Odumb ones? :lol



So you agree those are Shaq's rings. What Shaq looks like now has absolutely nothing to do with what Shaq looked like in 2000.

Absolutely agree, Shaq owns 4 rings, Kobe owns 4 rings.

Shaq couldn't hit a free throw in 2000 and he still can't hit a free throw today. Can you really be The Man if other teams are exposing you so much the Coach has to sit you in the 4th?

I don't remember Kobe, Duncan, Jordan, Hakeem being forced to sit out 4th quarters...but Shaq did.



It will be rewritten in that Kobe would have won 4 rings being the leader, effectively catching up to Duncan and Shaq.
You can talk all you want about Hack-a-Shaq, (which virtually applies only to two games in the year 2000 against the Blazers and the Pacers), but Lakers still won those games and Shaq was still the most dominant player in those series.

So you say. Fact remains when you got 7 rings, perspectives will change. Just like MJ was a selfish player but became GOAT after his 6 rings.




This is where reduce yourself to the typical Laker fan by doggin' on Shaq...

I ain't doggin' on Shaq. This was caused by Shaq himself. I was a supporter of Shaq over Kobe early on. But Shaq has screwed himself; and that is the truth.

It's odd that Shaq couldn't play with Kobe, couldn't play with Wade and couldn't play with Nash. Now he's with LeBron.

Kobe, Wade, Nash ALL ran Shaq out of town? Coincidence?

[ElNono]

ElNono, this forum and especially this thread is no place for reason or logic. Its just Kobe trolls circle jerking eachother. Get with the program!

I know where I'm at... This is exactly why I'm just having a conversation with a specific Lakerfan...

[mogrovejo]

Are you aware that Bill Russell never even got 1 Finals MVP? :lol

Holly cow!:wow

When I think Lakers fans can't get more idiotic...

[Allanon]

Holly cow!:wow

When I think Lakers fans can't get more idiotic...

Holly cow!:wow

When I think mogrovejo can't get more idiotic...

[ElNono]

What are you talking about? Sure you can Hack-a-Shaq in the last two minutes of a game, teams did that all the time. That's why you never gave Shaq the ball in those last 2 minutes unless he could just dunk it right away. If Shaq had to dribble even once, he was a team liability.

Wilt Chamberlain off-the-ball rule. Google it.


You mean that team with Gasoft, Odumb and "Delusional" Ariza? I recently came across some of your comments on "Gasoft" in the past...I wonder if you had any Odumb ones? :lol

Hey! That stuff worked for a season and a half... :lol
I ate my crow last season though, and I'm the first to say that.
I'm not even denying Kobe's dominance starting with the Gasol acquisition. And I don't say that as a knock on him. He's matured enough to know how to use his teammates to his advantage. I personally think he figure it out too late.


Shaq couldn't hit a free throw in 2000 and he still can't hit a free throw today. Can you really be The Man if other teams are exposing you so much the Coach has to sit you in the 4th?

Please. First game of the 2000 Finals Shaq scored 43 points and grabbed 19 rebounds. You're telling me he did that sitting from the bench?


I don't remember Kobe, Duncan, Jordan, Hakeem being forced to sit out 4th quarters...but Shaq did.

He didn't sit in the last 2 minutes.


I ain't doggin' on Shaq. This was caused by Shaq himself. I was a supporter of Shaq over Kobe early on. But Shaq has screwed himself; and that is the truth. It's odd that Shaq couldn't play with Kobe, couldn't play with Wade and couldn't play with Nash. Now he's with LeBron. Kobe, Wade, Nash ALL ran Shaq out of town? Coincidence?

What you don't seem to understand is that it doesn't matter at all in the conversation at hand. He was the most dominant Laker player in 2000, 2001 and 2002. Wether he got ran out of town afterwards is irrelevant.

[Allanon]

Wilt Chamberlain rule. Google it.

Hack-a-Shaq was named after Shaq.



Please. First game of the 2000 Finals Shaq scored 43 points and grabbed 19 rebounds. You're telling me he did that sitting from the bench?

I agree that Shaq was the man in 2000. I give you that.

But 2001/2002 I do question who was the actual man.



He didn't sit in the last 2 minutes.
But he couldn't get the ball either except for lobs.



What you don't seem to understand is that it doesn't matter at all in the conversation at hand. He was the most dominant Laker player in 2000, 2001 and 2002. Wether he got ran out of town afterwards is irrelevant.

2000, yes. But in 2001 & 2002, Shaq's liability in crunchtime coupled with Kobe's 4th quarter take overs will cast doubt on whether that was Shaq's team. Kobe staying and Shaq leaving further puts the question of who's team it was all along.

All of this in retrospect, and it is debateable. But imagine how much stronger the case would be as Kobe wins more rings.

[ElNono]

Hack-a-Shaq was named after Shaq.

Did you look it up? Here:
The new rule stated that if the defensive team commits an off-the-ball foul within the last two minutes of the game, the offensive team would be allowed to keep possession of the ball after the awarding of either one or two free throws.

This was instituted because Wilt was such a bad free throw shooter that he had to run from and dodge players as they chased him trying to foul him


I agree that Shaq was the man in 2000. I give you that. But 2001/2002 I do question who was the actual man. But he couldn't get the ball either except for lobs. 2000, yes. But in 2001 & 2002, Shaq's liability in crunchtime coupled with Kobe's 4th quarter take overs will cast doubt on whether that was Shaq's team. Kobe staying and Shaq leaving further puts the question of who's team it was all along.

Actually, Hack a Shaq was an issue basically in 2000 only, in the games I mentioned, as far as the 3 peat goes. Because at the end of 2000, Shaq was actually shooting 68% (best of his career), where it made fouling him ineffective (at least for the next couple of years).

[Allanon]

Did you look it up? Here:
The new rule stated that if the defensive team commits an off-the-ball foul within the last two minutes of the game, the offensive team would be allowed to keep possession of the ball after the awarding of either one or two free throws.

This was instituted because Wilt was such a bad free throw shooter that he had to run from and dodge players as they chased him trying to foul him

But Hack-A-Shaq was named specifically for Shaq.



Actually, Hack a Shaq was an issue basically in 2000 only, in the games I mentioned, as far as the 3 peat goes. Because at the end of 2000, Shaq was actually shooting 68% (best of his career), where it made fouling him ineffective (at least for the next couple of years).

I would be surprised if teams don't Hack-a-Shaq again this year...he's had the same problem for 15 years.

I'm not sure how you can even say this when Pop did it himself :lol Don't tell me you've forgotten this just a year ago?
During the 2008 preseason, O'Neal expressed his disapproval of [Spurs coach Gregg Popovich] and his team's use of the Hack-a-Shaq during the first round of the 2007 playoffs:

"The only thing I call cowardly is when you're up by 10 and do it. That's a coward move and [Popovich] knows that and I'll make them pay for it. "

http://www.hornets247.com/images/uploads/2009/09/293-gregg-popovich-thumbs-up.png

[ElNono]

But Hack-A-Shaq was named specifically for Shaq.

Yes, but the rule to mitigate it was invented long before because of another great player that sucked at free-throws. Bottom line: You can't Hack-A-Shack in the last 2 minutes of any game.


I would be surprised if teams don't Hack-a-Shaq again this year...he's had the same problem for 15 years.

I didn't say that he didn't get worse way after 2000. He actually improved dramatically in Dec 2000 because the Lakers got him a free throw shooting coach, and he did improve to 68% then (which basically means it was always on him and his lack of hard work in that department, I'm not arguing that).
That said, at that point, teams stopped doing the hack-a-shaq because it simply didn't pay off. Pop didn't use Hack-A-Shaq in 2003 or 2004 either...
It was actually Phil with Bruise-a-Bruce and Hack-A-Wallace (:lol) that brought this things back... Pop obviously did use it when Shaq was a Sun...

[Allanon]

Yes, but the rule to mitigate it was invented long before because of another great player that sucked at free-throws. Bottom line: You can't Hack-A-Shack in the last 2 minutes of any game.
Ah you're talking about technicalities.

You can't Hack-a-Shaq in the last 2 minutes but you can foul him if he gets the ball.



I didn't say that he didn't get worse way after 2000. He actually improved dramatically in Dec 2000 because the Lakers got him a free throw shooting coach, and he did improve to 68% then (which basically means it was always on him and his lack of hard work in that department, I'm not arguing that).
That said, at that point, teams stopped doing the hack-a-shaq because it simply didn't pay off. Pop didn't use Hack-A-Shaq in 2003 or 2004 either...
It was actually Phil with Bruise-a-Bruce and Hack-A-Wallace (:lol) that brought this things back... Pop obviously did use it when Shaq was a Sun...

As far as I know Shaq's highest FT% was 62% one year and then dropped back to 49% the following year. And his current average is 52%.

So even after all these years, people are still doing Hack-a-Shaq and Shaq's still a liability due to his poor FT shooting.

And prior to Pop, it was the Pistons forcing Pat Riley to stoop down to that level:


—Miami Heat coach Pat Riley[20] after Game 3 of the 2006 Eastern Conference Finals in which the Detroit Pistons used the Hack-a-Shaq strategy against Heat center Shaquille O'Neal. Riley countered by employing the strategy against Pistons center Ben Wallace.

[KidCongo]

Didn't Shaq average the most points for those Lakers team in the 4th quarter. Swear I read that on this board in another Kobe/MJ thread earlier in the year.

[Culburn369]

No, you dreamn't that then woke up tangled in the sheets with Daddy.

[ChrisRichards]

No, you dreamn't that then woke up tangled in the sheets with Daddy.
:rollin

[Killakobe81]

The one interesting argument is the one about explaining FG% difference with a "point per shot attempt" analysis. That's actually a pretty interesting way of looking at it. Don't really buy it completely, but that's one of the better arguments I've heard for it.

Most of the rest of it is is blatantly showered in Kobe homerism. He mentions how Michael punched Kerr and Perdue but ignored the fact Kobe punched Brian Cook in the back of the head on the team bus or how he even hits and smacks and elbows teammates in games for everyone to see or how he bashed Andrew Bynum on the street in that youtube clip. Michael may have been a horrible teammate and person as well, but you can't really argue Kobe is better.

Agreed. THEY BOTH were crappy team-mates. BUT the Jordan lovers/Kobe haters gloss over that fact.
I still agree that MJ was better BUT those that post MJ>>>>>>>>>>kobe are delusional ...Kobe is behind MJ maybe nort backseat but he is tailgating him at this point ...

[Donkeybong]

this article is horribly written but has a few good points.

[mogrovejo]

Holly cow!:wow

When I think mogrovejo can't get more idiotic...

Lakers fan, there was no MVP Finals award when Russell was playing except in his last season (when, once again, he made Wilt, West and Baylor his bitches). Otherwise he'd have a bunch of them. Not that he'd care, individual awards are the kind of stuff Los Angeles players and fans value.

[Allanon]

Lakers fan, there was no MVP Finals award when Russell was playing except in his last season (when, once again, he made Wilt, West and Baylor his bitches). Otherwise he'd have a bunch of them. Not that he'd care, individual awards are the kind of stuff Los Angeles players and fans value.

Tool, you said he was eligible for the MVP Finals award but didn't win one.

The man with 11 rings could not even win 1 even when he won the championship that same year?

New bandwagon Celtic fans, I tell you. :lol

[ChrisRichards]

laker fan educating a boston fan on the celtic's history, thats just cold:lol

[noob cake]

Kobe wasn't first option for all his rings; Jordan was.

/kthxbai

[ChrisRichards]

Kobe wasn't first option for all his rings; Jordan was.

/kthxbai
hows ariza working out for you

kthxbai

[Killakobe81]

This stuff is hilarious ...the thng is ...why all the attention if Kobe is interchangeable with Pierce, Joe Johnson, VC, melo etc?
We don't have numerous threads here hating on any of the inetchangeable stars do we?
The reason why ...kobe is the best right now. Some like (me), some hate him (chris richards, miami heat) and others worship him (Kobe lovers).

Some hate him for Colorado, cockiness or because he Kills their team just when they think they had the game won (miami, Milwakee, Phoenix that means you)
But just the fact that there are this many threads of hate and many defending him (even smart Spur fans) tells me who is the best ...the fact that sinceMJ all others have fallen and Kobe is still standing toe to toe with Bron, Wade melo says enough ...

[mogrovejo]

Tool, you said he was eligible for the MVP Finals award but didn't win one.

Where? Link, please.


The man with 11 rings could not even win 1 even when he won the championship that same year?

New bandwagon Celtic fans, I tell you. :lol

You're dense. The award was created in 1969, he only played that finals. He was only eligible to win 1 MVP Finals.

Let me quote myself:

Lakers fan, there was no MVP Finals award when Russell was playing except in his last season

Again:

Lakers fan, there was no MVP Finals award when Russell was playing except in his last season

Got it now?

[mogrovejo]

This stuff is hilarious ...the thng is ...why all the attention if Kobe is interchangeable with Pierce, Joe Johnson, VC, melo etc?
We don't have numerous threads here hating on any of the inetchangeable stars do we?
The reason why ...kobe is the best right now. Some like (me), some hate him (chris richards, miami heat) and others worship him (Kobe lovers).

Some hate him for Colorado, cockiness or because he Kills their team just when they think they had the game won (miami, Milwakee, Phoenix that means you)
But just the fact that there are this many threads of hate and many defending him (even smart Spur fans) tells me who is the best ...the fact that sinceMJ all others have fallen and Kobe is still standing toe to toe with Bron, Wade melo says enough ...

Get a clue: these discussions don't exist outside of message boards highly populated with Lakers fans.

[djohn2oo8]

hows ariza working out for you

kthxbai

Pretty good so far....Does Wade want out of Miami?

[Allanon]

Where? Link, please.

Read your own post below:



You're dense. The award was created in 1969, he only played that finals. He was only eligible to win 1 MVP Finals.

Let me quote myself:

Again:

Got it now?

Exactly. He was eligible to win 1 Finals MVP but he didn't. A man with 11 rings can't even win 1 Finals MVP. What excuse are you going to make for not winning a Finals MVP?

Did he have no chances to win a Finals MVP?

Read your own blather...Get it now?

[ElNono]

Ah you're talking about technicalities.
You can't Hack-a-Shaq in the last 2 minutes but you can foul him if he gets the ball.

Sorry, had to run and get some Xmas presents. Just show me that he wasn't there in the last 2 minutes of the game and you might have a point. But I remember the games and he was definitely out there and not getting hacked.


As far as I know Shaq's highest FT% was 62% one year and then dropped back to 49% the following year. And his current average is 52%.

O'Neal reached a low point in his free throw shooting during the 2000-2001 season, finding himself at a miserable 38% on the season in December 2000. At that time, the Lakers hired Ed Palubinskas, a 90% free throw shooter during his own playing days, to help coach O'Neal. The tactic seemed to eventually pay dividends and O'Neal shot almost 68% over the last 15 games of that season, prompting O'Neal at one point to loudly bark, "It doesn't work any more!" at his opposition when the Hack-a-Shaq strategy was being used.

From the Wikipedia entry on Hack-a-Shaq...
He did get worse after that... but you can't say it was this huge factor back then like you make it out to be...

[Allanon]

Sorry, had to run and get some Xmas presents.
All good, life is > than responses here.



Just show me that he wasn't there in the last 2 minutes of the game and you might have a point. But I remember the games and he was definitely out there and not getting hacked.

Really isn't worth the time to go look it up. We know Hack-A-Shaq happened then and it happens now. We know that Shaq had to be taken out of games because they were hacking him.

We know even as recent as Pop and Pat Riley, Hack-a-Shaq was still in effect.



O'Neal reached a low point in his free throw shooting during the 2000-2001 season, finding himself at a miserable 38% on the season in December 2000. At that time, the Lakers hired Ed Palubinskas, a 90% free throw shooter during his own playing days, to help coach O'Neal. The tactic seemed to eventually pay dividends and O'Neal shot almost 68% over the last 15 games of that season, prompting O'Neal at one point to loudly bark, "It doesn't work any more!" at his opposition when the Hack-a-Shaq strategy was being used.

From the Wikipedia entry on Hack-a-Shaq...
He did get worse after that... but you can't say it was this huge factor back then like you make it out to be...

It's still a huge factor today, not just back then. The man shoots 50% FT and is still a liability today as he was back then. He shot 68% for 15 games. Then went back to 49% the following year.

[TD4THREE]

Lefty, Jordan was a ball hog his whole career.

One of my favorite Jordan moments is when Jordan was asking for the ball and Pippen passed it to Kerr for an easy 2 and Jordan went off on him on national tv for not passing him the ball. You don't get more selfish than that.Jordan took better shots than Kobe and didn't have to work as hard for his points, mainly because Kobe didn't have the ability to get to the rim at will like a Jordan or Lebron. Jordan shooting as much as he did is justified because most of the time it was the best shot on the floor. This wasn't always the case with Kobe especially when he had Shaq, who could get an easy bucket anytime he wants.

[noob cake]

hows ariza working out for you

kthxbai

Great, keeping us afloat with his chucking. Fantastic pickup for the next season when he won't have to chuck 18 shots a game. Fantastic defense as always (though not as good as Battier's, but expected)

[ElNono]

All good, life is > than responses here.

No, life is >>>>>>>>> responses here. :lol


Really isn't worth the time to go look it up. We know Hack-A-Shaq happened then and it happens now. We know that Shaq had to be taken out of games because they were hacking him.
We know even as recent as Pop and Pat Riley, Hack-a-Shaq was still in effect.
It's still a huge factor today, not just back then. The man shoots 50% FT and is still a liability today as he was back then. He shot 68% for 15 games. Then went back to 49% the following year.

I don't disagree with that. You simply can't use that as a blanket excuse to say he was not THE MAN in lakers championships '00-'02.

[Allanon]

No, life is >>>>>>>>> responses here. :lol

True.

I'm tired of arguing with you ElNono...this ain't going anywhere without insults. You're not a dick so I can't be a dick back. :lol

Til next time :toast

[ElNono]

Til next time :toast

Till we're bored again... :toast

[jacobdrj]

I think six too. At least four and maybe more tha six because he wouldn't be leaving the NBA for a year and a half because the commissioner asked him to in order to take some heat off a possible gambling scandal. In that era, after the Magic's Lakers, Bird's Celtics, and Isiah's Pistons were all finished or basically finished, there wasn't a championship team ready to take the crown except for the Bulls. The best competition in that 8 year stretch was probably the Utah Jazz and I think Kobe on the Bulls beat them both times too. I think Kobe on the Bulls beat Hakeem's Rockets as well, at least in 1994.

That is very interesting analysis.

So, you don't think Sir Charles and the Suns beat the Kobe-Bulls in 93?

[MiamiHeat]

If Jordan didn't exist, Kobe wouldn't exist.

He's copied his game, just like every other superstar SG since MJ.

[Allanon]

If Jordan didn't exist, Kobe wouldn't exist.

He's copied his game, just like every other superstar SG since MJ.

There definitely is truth in this and I agree Kobe owes alot to MJ.

MJ paved the way for Kobe. Why is it surprising that Kobe takes MJ's tricks and beats his own records with it.

Kobe ain't original, that's for sure, but he's a fine copycat.

[MiamiHeat]

What records has Kobe beaten? lemme know

[Double-Up]

I think six too. At least four and maybe more tha six because he wouldn't be leaving the NBA for a year and a half because the commissioner asked him to in order to take some heat off a possible gambling scandal. In that era, after the Magic's Lakers, Bird's Celtics, and Isiah's Pistons were all finished or basically finished, there wasn't a championship team ready to take the crown except for the Bulls. The best competition in that 8 year stretch was probably the Utah Jazz and I think Kobe on the Bulls beat them both times too. I think Kobe on the Bulls beat Hakeem's Rockets as well, at least in 1994.

I don't think so we had the ultimate perimeter defender in Vernon Maxwell. No way and we would beast on the inside on O and D. Nope, not possible.

[jacobdrj]

What records has Kobe beaten? lemme know

Most points by a non-center in a single game?

[jacobdrj]

I don't think so we had the ultimate perimeter defender in Vernon Maxwell. No way and we would beast on the inside on O and D. Nope, not possible.

Jordan managed to beat the best perimeter defender of all time, Dennis Rodman, in 1991, if I read my history right: Although, I was too young to watch either series ;)

[Greg Oden]

Jordan managed to beat the best perimeter defender of all time, Dennis Rodman, in 1991, if I read my history right: Although, I was too young to watch either series ;)

http://www.lolwut.com/layout/lolwut.jpg

[Double-Up]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

:lol

[jacobdrj]

:married:
And here I thought this was one of the more mature Kobe vs. threads.
Oh well.

[Double-Up]

:married:
And here I thought this was one of the more mature Kobe vs. threads.
Oh well.

Could you explain your post then? Dennis Rodman was a PF and didn't guard Jordan one on one very often if at all.

[jacobdrj]

Did you ever watch Rodman play? He was a PF that guarded every position when called to, sans maybe PG, except when that PG was like, Magic...

[MiamiHeat]

Most points by a non-center in a single game?

That's only for regular season

in the playoffs when it matters, Jordan holds the record at 63 pts


ok, so what else?

[namlook]

That's only for regular season

in the playoffs when it matters, Jordan holds the record at 63 pts


ok, so what else?

Since you agree the playoffs are when it matters I assume you agree that Kobe's teams have performed better than Lebron's teams in the playoffs and that's what matters.

[kingmalaki]

I think six too. At least four and maybe more tha six because he wouldn't be leaving the NBA for a year and a half because the commissioner asked him to in order to take some heat off a possible gambling scandal. In that era, after the Magic's Lakers, Bird's Celtics, and Isiah's Pistons were all finished or basically finished, there wasn't a championship team ready to take the crown except for the Bulls. The best competition in that 8 year stretch was probably the Utah Jazz and I think Kobe on the Bulls beat them both times too. I think Kobe on the Bulls beat Hakeem's Rockets as well, at least in 1994.

I don't think so. In 94 Hakeem dropped 29 a night on 52% in the playoffs. Kobe's main benefit is his offensive production, and even in his best postseason, he wasn't as effective of a scorer as Hakeem was in the 94 playoffs. This is not Shaq we are talking about, as in a guy who needs someone to close games for him. This is a center that you can go to down the stretch, and the Bulls frontline would have arguably been the weakest one Hakeem saw in 94, and they had no center worth holding so he (great help defender) could sit back and roam all day.

Jordan could pump more points and he was more efficient at it. Your SG having a FG% like a pivot makes a big difference.

[Mavs_man_41]

I don't think so. In 94 Hakeem dropped 29 a night on 52% in the playoffs. Kobe's main benefit is his offensive production, and even in his best postseason, he wasn't as effective of a scorer as Hakeem was in the 94 playoffs. This is not Shaq we are talking about, as in a guy who needs someone to close games for him. This is a center that you can go to down the stretch, and the Bulls frontline would have arguably been the weakest one Hakeem saw in 94, and they had no center worth holding so he (great help defender) could sit back and roam all day.

Jordan could pump more points and he was more efficient at it. Your SG having a FG% like a pivot makes a big difference.

glad to have you back, you're the only rocket fan i know of who knows the game of basketball. you should really stick around, your fanbase on spurstalk is really lacking. good work in that hakeem/duncan thread a while back

[namlook]

Jordan could pump more points and he was more efficient at it. Your SG having a FG% like a pivot makes a big difference.

Kobe shoots a lot more 3s than Jordan did which lowers his FG%. So you can't just compare FG% straight up to get a true picture since a lower percentage 3pt shot gives you more points. Shooting 35% from three is the same as shooting 52.5% from the field shooting 2pt shots in terms of point production.

"Jordan averaged 1.316 points per field goal attempt in his career, while Kobe has averaged 1.312 points per field goal attempt..

On average, when Jordan shot 20 times, he scored 26.3 points, while Kobe averages 26.2 points per every 20-shot attempts."

Efficiency per FG attempt is basically dead even between Jordan and Kobe.

[MiamiHeat]

Kobe isn't even better than LeBron

There are many categories to compare, but the top three offensive statistics offer the best starting ground. Kobe Bryant averages 25.1 points per game, 5.3 assists per game, while shooting 45 percent from the field. The Cavs LeBron James averages 27.5 points per game, 6.6 assists per game and shoots 47 percent. The most obvious assessment here is that LeBron is better in every key offensive category. Interestingly, Kobe is known as a much better outside shooter, yet he is only a fraction better from 3-point range than LeBron (34 percent to 32 percent).

[HarlemHeat37]

I find it strange that people actually try to argue for Kobe in this comparison..it's such a waste of time..there's actually no possible argument you can make..Kobe also benefits from the most revisionist history of ANY athlete in ANY sports league, I've never seen anybody even come close..

In every year that he has more team success, everybody forgets his failures of the past or exaggerates his roles in the past..apparently he became the clear #1 option on the 3-peat all of a sudden after winning this last title..apparently people forgot that he had one of the worst NBA Finals in history in 2004..he let his team choke a 24-point lead in the NBA Finals, which basically killed their chances in the series..his team blew a 3-1 lead vs. Phoenix..

Even if you ignore everything else and focus on his massive failures, how can he even have any kind of argument against some of these other top 8 or whatever of all-time, let alone the GOAT?..

[kingmalaki]

Kobe shoots a lot more 3s than Jordan did which lowers his FG%. So you can't just compare FG% straight up to get a true picture since a lower percentage 3pt shot gives you more points. Shooting 35% from three is the same as shooting 52.5% from the field shooting 2pt shots in terms of point production.

"Jordan averaged 1.316 points per field goal attempt in his career, while Kobe has averaged 1.312 points per field goal attempt..

On average, when Jordan shot 20 times, he scored 26.3 points, while Kobe averages 26.2 points per every 20-shot attempts."

Efficiency per FG attempt is basically dead even between Jordan and Kobe.

So Kobe is forced to take more 3's or does he choose to?

[mystargtr34]

I was hoping someone else would make this argument, since i cant really be bothered... but i may aswell..

PPS is an equally flawed stat as FG% (mogrovejo already mentioned)... because it doesnt take into account a players ability to get to the line and make those FT's The only stat that really measures 2 point field goals, 3 point field goalsand free throw shooting, into one %, is TS%. So to be fair, we should use this when comparing the two players.

Since the OP took out Kobe's first three seasons... we should take Jordans Wizards days out, and also the last two seasons of his Bulls career. That way we compare the two players through to the same age.

Jordans first 12 seasons... TS%

.592%
.533% (18 games)
.562%
.603%
.614%
.606%
.605%
.579%
.564%
.493% (17 games)
.582%

Average - .590%

Kobe (after his first 3 seasons) TS%...

.546%
.552%
.544%
.550%
.551%
.563%
.559%
.580%
.576%
.561%
.565%

Average - .559%

This shows that there isnt as big a difference between their true efficiency on offense as their raw FG% might show, because Kobe took more 3 point shots... but there is still a considerable difference in efficiency between the two. Remember this is taking out Jordan's Wizards years, as well as his final two years as a Bull. So up until he was 32, the same age Kobe will be by season's end (or close to). Those Bulls years wont impact the numbers much, but its probably better/easier to compare the two through the same age.