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Marcus Bryant
12-23-2009, 12:25 PM
http://www.yaliberty.org/yar/the-end-of-big-government-conservatism

The End of Big-Government Conservatism
Nixon, Ford, and both Bushes expanded the state and shrank their party.

By: W. James Antle III
Young American Revolution
March 2009

Despite George W. Bush’s many failures as president, in one area he was an unqualified success: demonstrating the impossibility of big-government conservatism. For decades, clever pundits and Republican apparatchiks have been touting this self-evident oxymoron as the path to political success. After eight years in practice, it has proved to be the road to irrelevance and ruin—politically as well as financially.

Ideologies that celebrate the swollen state while traveling under the name “conservative” are nothing new. As the Old Right faded into the modern American conservative movement, Eisenhower-era “Modern Republicans” preached a “dynamic conservatism” that was to be “conservative when it comes to money and liberal when it comes to human beings.” This was followed by the Rockefeller Republicanism of the 1960s, which was essentially Kennedy-Johnson Democratic politics for the country club. Later, the neoconservatives sought to instill reverence for their old patron saints FDR, JFK, and LBJ among their new Republican allies.

But the big-government conservatism of the Bush era pretended to be a continuation of the American Right’s limited-government traditions rather than a Tory socialist repudiation of them. It promised low taxes, less regulation, and free markets, an “ownership society” instead of a cradle-to-grave welfare state. President Bush contrasted his vision with that of the Democrats: “a government that encourages ownership and opportunity and responsibility, or a government that takes your money and makes your choices.” What this new conservatism did not aim to do, however, was directly reduce government spending.

Why? Because spending cuts were for “green eyeshade” proponents of austerity, political losers. Since World War II, Republicans have launched direct assaults on federal domestic spending three times: the “Do Nothing” 80th Congress of 1947-48, which under the leadership of Sen. Robert Taft slashed even military spending; the 97th Congress of 1981-82, which approved the less ambitious—but still terrifying for liberals—Reagan budget cuts; and finally the 104th Congress of 1995-96, Newt Gingrich’s “Republican Revolution,” which dared to propose slower spending increases for Medicare.

Republicans suffered losses at the ballot box each time. In 1948, the GOP lost its House and Senate majorities—the party’s first since the early 1930s—and unpopular President Harry Truman won re-election in no small part by running against the Do Nothing Congress. Republicans lost 26 House seats in 1982, though the party’s hold on the Senate and the presidency remained intact. In 1996, Bill Clinton replicated Truman’s death-defying feat by winning what once seemed an improbable second term as he promised to protect spending on “Medicare, Medicaid, education, and the environment” from the Gingrich Congress. The Democrats also picked up eight House seats.

In response to this last Republican setback, George W. Bush’s political circle formulated “compassionate conservatism” as a marketing slogan for the idea that voters could have their tax dollars and eat them, too. Fred Barnes, the political reporter and Weekly Standard executive editor who popularized the term “big government conservatives,” still describes them best. “They simply believe in using what would normally be seen as liberal means—activist government—for conservative ends,” Barnes wrote five years ago, “And they’re willing to spend more and increase the size of government in the process.” That means accepting or even expanding the social-welfare programs that Democrats built while channeling the dollars toward faith-based initiatives, abstinence-only sex education, marriage-promotion schemes, and other projects amenable to GOP constituencies.

“The essence of Bush’s big government conservatism is a trade-off,” Barnes continued. “To gain free-market reforms and expand individual choice, he’s willing to broaden programs and increase spending.” Grand New Party authors Ross Douthat and Reihan Salam put it a bit differently: “Rather than target the ‘supply-side’ of government, or the amount of government spending, Bush’s focus was on the ‘demand-side,’ or the need for government services.”

Unfortunately, it did not work out this way in practice. The ballyhooed prescription-drug benefit added at least $8.7 trillion to Medicare’s unfunded liabilities and No Child Left Behind helped drive an 18 percent annual increase in federal education spending, each without even the meager “free-market reforms” initially proposed. Domestic discretionary spending—excluding all homeland-security expenditures, even though they deserve to be included—increased more between 2001 and 2006 than during Clinton’s entire eight years in office.

None of the “conservative” reforms diminished the demand for government services the way welfare reform reduced the welfare rolls in the 1990s. By 2006, enrollment in 25 major federal programs—from Medicaid to Pell Grants—had increased 17 percent over 2000, while the population increased by just 5 percent over the same period. The economy played a role, but so did the demand-side logic of big-government conservatism: To help encourage work over welfare, Congress has expanded eligibility for some other public aid programs. Allowing low-income workers who own cars worth more than $4,650 to qualify for food stamps extended the benefit to an estimated 2.7 million people, buying more “independence” from one program with greater dependence on another.

By the end of Bush’s term, the Republican Party was identified with costly bailouts of Wall Street and the automobile industry, to say nothing of precursors to Barack Obama’s $800 billion stimulus package. There were honorable holdouts among congressional Republicans—the Wall Street “rescue” had to be passed with Democratic votes; the Big Three bailout was stalled by Senate Republicans—but the end result was that a Republican president helped transform a $128 billion annual budget surplus into a $1.2 trillion deficit.

If big-government conservatism was a failure on its own terms as policy, it has proved equally disastrous politically. In just four years, unified Republican control of the elected branches of the federal government has been replaced with Democratic dominance. Republicans have lost 50 House seats in the last two elections and Democrats are just one vote away from a filibuster-proof 60-seat Senate majority. Obama, once arguably the most liberal senator, won 53 percent of the vote—more than either Clinton or Jimmy Carter ever drew while pretending to be moderates. The GOP has been knocked down to pre-1994 levels in Washington. According to some polls, identification with the Republican Party is down to pre-Reagan levels.

At this point, Rovian spinners would surely protest that things would have been much worse if Bush had tried to cut spending. Republicans would have lost their majorities even earlier if they tried to touch Medicare like Gingrich or Social Security cost-of-living adjustments like Reagan. Bush might not have been re-elected, they argue, if he hadn’t signed the Medicare prescription-drug benefit or No Child Left Behind. But these were short-lived gains at best.

By 2006, the Democrats had regained their traditional advantages on education and Medicare. In fact, they were claiming that Republicans were shortchanging seniors by not including price controls in the drug benefit and shafting children by leaving No Child Left Behind underfunded. Just as was the case with the Bush immigration amnesty gambit, the Republicans did not expand their party’s base. They merely entered into a bidding war with the Democrats that they could not win.

Worse, big-government conservatism contributed to the major national problems that tore down the Republican majorities. Bush initiatives to increase minority home ownership and give loans to borrowers with bad credit helped fuel the housing bubble, which has since painfully burst. Like Clinton before him, Bush encouraged the Federal Reserve’s loose monetary policies and artificially low interest rates. His borrow-and-spend fiscal policies necessitated the printing of more money. And let us not forget the staggering political costs of the war in Iraq, the biggest big-government conservative project of them all.

The political case for big-government conservatism was always suspect. Republicans held onto both houses of Congress and actually gained two Senate seats after the government shutdown in 1996. Republicans held onto a 54 to 46 Senate majority after the Reagan budget cuts in 1982, and President Reagan himself was reelected in 1984. Even the small-government losses of the Taft Republicans in 1948 and Barry Goldwater in 1964 paid dividends for the conservative movement over the long term, the first by staving off a European-style social democracy and the second by facilitating a conservative takeover of the Republican Party.

By contrast, big-government Republicans Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, George H.W. Bush, and George W. Bush were all followed by unified Democratic control of the federal government. Dwight Eisenhower—though admittedly a taxpayer’s best friend compared to Bush—was followed by John F. Kennedy. Rockefeller Republicanism proved good for politicians like Nelson Rockefeller but never helped the GOP as a whole out of its minority status. Unlike the Rockefeller Republicans, however, the mainstream conservative movement embraced big-government conservatism as practiced by Bush because it continued to promise tax cuts.

Yet the era of tax cuts without spending cuts is coming to a close. Even in the extremely unlikely event that President Obama fails to enlarge our public spending commitments—and even without counting the Troubled Assets Relief Program or the bailouts of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac—federal spending is scheduled to rise to 24 percent of GDP in 2020 and 40 percent by 2050. All that is needed is for the Baby Boomers to retire and existing government programs to continue to grow on autopilot. Borrowing is off the table with $1 trillion annual deficits as far as the eye can see and $50 trillion in unfunded liabilities for the major entitlement programs. Without spending cuts, federal tax revenues will need to rise by at least 4 to 7 percent of GDP per year for the next 20 years.

That translates into a $550 billion to $700 billion tax increase in today’s dollars. And that’s assuming the Obama administration does not grow government beyond the levels already demanded by current law and the country’s demographics. Forget any future tax relief or saving the Bush tax cuts, which are already scheduled to expire in 2011. Big government will make conservatism—at least the kind of economic conservatism Republicans have campaigned on since the 1980s—mathematically impossible.

Ronald Reagan succeeded in driving down confiscatory marginal income tax rates, a signal political achievement of the conservative movement. But he failed to shrink the federal government, despite early efforts to contain domestic spending. Reagan won a 9.7 percent cut in inflation-adjusted nondefense domestic discretionary spending during his first term, only to watch such outlays rise by 0.2 percent in his second. Military expenditures and entitlement spending grew throughout his presidency, contributing to record deficits.

The Reagan tax cuts helped promote dazzling growth with some noticeable Laffer Curve revenue re-flow effects, convincing many conservatives that supply-side economics offered them a way to cut taxes while leaving most major spending programs intact. In truth, public concern about rising deficits led to erosions of the tax cuts almost as soon as they were enacted. The business tax cuts were diluted in 1982, Social Security taxes went up in 1983, and the top marginal income tax rate—lowered all the way to 28 percent in 1986 from a once-staggering 70 percent—was raised in 1990 and 1993. Even after the Bush tax cuts, the top income tax rate remains higher than it was when Clinton took office.

By briefly offering what David Frum described as “post-Great Society government at pre-Great Society prices,” the Reagan years deluded conservatives into believing that deficits—and big government—don’t matter. In fact, the spending increases nearly jeopardized all the work Reagan did to lower tax rates. Yet it took George W. Bush to illustrate the contradiction most clearly: Bush’s record on spending was much worse than Reagan’s, and so was his rhetoric. Reagan’s speeches kept conservatives focused on the evils of government growth even when his actions did not.

“There’s a clear cause and effect here that is as neat and predictable as a law of physics,” Reagan said in his farewell address to the nation in January 1989. “As government expands, liberty contracts.” This is a sharp contrast with Bush’s famous line, “When somebody hurts, government has got to move.” The American people agreed and voted Democratic.

Something is hurting, all right: conservatism in a new era of bipartisan big government. Smaller government—preferably returning to the limits imposed by the U.S. Constitution—is the only cure. Those who would lead the Republican Party must be judged by that standard.

W. James Antle III is associate editor of The American Spectator.

EmptyMan
12-23-2009, 12:29 PM
I think this country needs to go through a lot more pain to prevent the repubs from just reverting back to the same ol' shit once they get back in office.

Marcus Bryant
12-23-2009, 12:37 PM
I think this country needs to go through a lot more pain to prevent the repubs from just reverting back to the same ol' shit once they get back in office.

That would be the counter, that any attempt to even slow the rate of growth of federal spending is an electoral loser, in which case it is time to procure a fine bottle of Scotch malt and enjoy the show. I guess.

SouthernFried
12-23-2009, 12:54 PM
One of our founders (don't remember who) was quoted as saying, and I'm paraphrasing...

"the nature of govt is to ever increase in size, at the expense of individual liberty."

Whoever said that, the truism has always been accurate. Don't matter when, who, what, where...or why. Govt always increases in size. It's more the nature of those who choose to be in govt., than govt by itself...but, govts are always run by people, and that's what people do. Always have, always will.

There are always those who do not wish it to happen, the majority of people even. But, those people generally don't choose to be in govt in the first place. Those that do...have "things to do," donchaknow.

Biggest expenditure in our govt, is Social Security. It is mandated to go up every year...by law. Blame whoever is governing at the time all you want...govt spending is going up.

It's its nature.

Well, until money sources go bankrupt.

Or, people get really...really...really upset enough to do something serious about it before then.

Methinks the former will happen before the latter.

...and so it goes.

boutons_deux
12-23-2009, 12:57 PM
"Without spending cuts, federal tax revenues will need to rise by at least 4 to 7 percent of GDP per year for the next 20 years."

This is the Repug/conservative Master Plan.

Spend the country's treasure on bogus wars and wasteful military spending ($10T per 10 years, excluding war costs), then say we have to cut (non-war) spending, so we can keep fighting endless non-winnable wars to enrich the MIC (that funds Repug/conservative coffers) and give the oilcos taxpayer-funded access to oil so the oilcos can continue gouging the taxpayer.

America has a birth "right" to endless wars, esp on non-white/non-Christian countries, but health care is a "privilege".

Winehole23
12-23-2009, 01:24 PM
Something is hurting, all right: conservatism in a new era of bipartisan big government. Smaller government—preferably returning to the limits imposed by the U.S. Constitution—is the only cure.Lotta talk so far, lotta Republicans flexing their brand new libertarian muscles. But if you don't use it, you lose it.


Those who would lead the Republican Party must be judged by that standardFuck the Republican Party. Fuck the Dems too.


But the big-government conservatism of the Bush era pretended to be a continuation of the American Right’s limited-government traditions rather than a Tory socialist repudiation of them. It promised low taxes, less regulation, and free markets, an “ownership society” instead of a cradle-to-grave welfare state. President Bush contrasted his vision with that of the Democrats: “a government that encourages ownership and opportunity and responsibility, or a government that takes your money and makes your choices.” What this new conservatism did not aim to do, however, was directly reduce government spending.

Why? Because spending cuts were for “green eyeshade” proponents of austerity, political losers. Since World War II, Republicans have launched direct assaults on federal domestic spending three times: the “Do Nothing” 80th Congress of 1947-48, which under the leadership of Sen. Robert Taft slashed even military spending; the 97th Congress of 1981-82, which approved the less ambitious—but still terrifying for liberals—Reagan budget cuts; and finally the 104th Congress of 1995-96, Newt Gingrich’s “Republican Revolution,” which dared to propose slower spending increases for Medicare.So if the GOP tries to actually deliver smaller government, they get creamed at the polls. I wonder what lesson Mr. Antle wishes the reader to draw from this.

Ignignokt
12-23-2009, 01:27 PM
They should try it this time.. Now that they have FAUX news M$M neocunts rabble rousers on their big fat corporate pockets.

Winehole23
12-23-2009, 01:32 PM
Iggy takes a turn as a pro-Republican boutons. Not bad.

Marcus Bryant
12-23-2009, 04:53 PM
Odd that we go from a Democrat president who proclaimed the death of "big government" to a GOP president who gave it life it within five years. Perhaps that alone shows the worthlessness of party politics in these United States.

Still, if a GOP candidate ran on a platform which was essentially the 42nd POTUS' administration from 1994-2001, he'd be branded a reactionary of the deepest stripe.

And if a Dem ran on one based on the 43rd's administration, he'd be lauded by the standard leftist establishment, at least on domestic policy.

Maybe it's a generational thing. I'm not sure. Rove's great brainstorm was to divide the electorate along social lines. Like that was some reach. Pure Nixon.

Marcus Bryant
12-23-2009, 04:58 PM
Bill Clinton would win the GOP nomination for 2012. At least he could, forgetting about tedious things such as constitutional amendments and what not. Clinton was easily a more conservative president than his predecessor. Yeah, the Congress. Well, 43rd had a Republican Congress for most of his presidency and we know what happened.

Marcus Bryant
12-23-2009, 04:58 PM
Oh, you still believe in partisan politics. Better send that email to Santa. Quick.

Wild Cobra
12-23-2009, 05:51 PM
What an oxymoron:

"Big-Government Conservatism"

Winehole23
12-23-2009, 05:56 PM
What an oxymoron:

What is tragic is that big government conservatism is not only real, it is the conservative mainstream. It has been, with only periodic interruption, since WWII.

"Big-Government Conservatism" sounds like an oxymoron, but it is actually a description.

Marcus Bryant
12-23-2009, 06:20 PM
It is what it is. Hence the problem with conservatives being inable to critically examine the administration of the 43rd POTUS.

spursncowboys
12-23-2009, 06:51 PM
Bill Clinton would win the GOP nomination for 2012. At least he could, forgetting about tedious things such as constitutional amendments and what not. Clinton was easily a more conservative president than his predecessor. Yeah, the Congress. Well, 43rd had a Republican Congress for most of his presidency and we know what happened.
Bullshit. He was dragged tooth and nail by the Conservatives. Not to mention he was poll driven.

spursncowboys
12-23-2009, 07:02 PM
It is what it is. Hence the problem with conservatives being inable to critically examine the administration of the 43rd POTUS.
Also the problem with you and others not being able to seperate foreign and domestic fiscal policy. Bush has a pretty good domestic conservative record. Since I think Clinton should share all his success to his counter weight in the House, I would also put some blame on the Repubs in Congress.
Bryant: What is your idea of Conservatism. You seem to create victims and the need for a big brother. Does the middle class need a fairness policeman? Are you ok with regulation to make things more fair?

Marcus Bryant
12-23-2009, 07:14 PM
Bullshit. He was dragged tooth and nail by the Conservatives. Not to mention he was poll driven.

Motive doesn't matter. Also, what exactly does the socialist communist left-wing drugs handout which added trillions to the unfunded Medicare liability have to do with national defense?

Motherfucker. I'm going to spend more time reading the Greeks and Romans than wallowing in stupidity with you.

Marcus Bryant
12-23-2009, 07:22 PM
Also the problem with you and others not being able to seperate foreign and domestic fiscal policy. Bush has a pretty good domestic conservative record. Since I think Clinton should share all his success to his counter weight in the House, I would also put some blame on the Repubs in Congress.


HAHhahaha. Haha. Oh, God. Such as what? He expanded the state in every direction. At least Reagan had as a stated goal the elimination of the DOE. Bush let Ted Kennedy sign off on a mammoth increase in that bastard. Lest we forget Medicare. Democrats increase spending on health care and it's "socialism" and "communism" and the end of the Republic and all that stupid nonsense you jack off to. Saint George the Innocent does the same, if not worse, and, well, hey, al Qaeda.





Bryant: What is your idea of Conservatism. You seem to create victims and the need for a big brother. Does the middle class need a fairness policeman? Are you ok with regulation to make things more fair?

I seem to do so because you haven't a clue about conservatism. You are a useful idiot and it's not surprising given that GWB's dick is down your throat. Google "old right" and begin your education.

EmptyMan
12-23-2009, 07:37 PM
That's why you get in by deceiving the people, try to have a majority for a year or so, and take a chainsaw to government before anyone can vote you out.

You'd be exiled but you'd pump a couple more years into America's longevity.


I have this crazy thought that if the president were truly the real deal, he wouldn't be hated as much for doing the right thing.

spursncowboys
12-23-2009, 07:39 PM
Motive doesn't matter. Also, what exactly does the socialist communist left-wing drugs handout which added trillions to the unfunded Medicare liability have to do with national defense?

Motherfucker. I'm going to spend more time reading the Greeks and Romans than wallowing in stupidity with you.
Yeah the expansion of Medicare, Patriot Act and the TSA were terrible.

doobs
12-23-2009, 07:50 PM
I like Bush. But his pesidency, along with the emergence of Christian Democrat Mike Huckabee and Proud Ignoramus Sarah Palin, have prevented me from self-identifying as a Republican. Big government conservatism was a cynical election ploy that unfortunately worked too well.

Bush wasn't nearly as bad as Nixon. That man was just a milder LBJ.

spursncowboys
12-23-2009, 07:50 PM
HAHhahaha. Haha. Oh, God. Such as what? He expanded the state in every direction. At least Reagan had as a stated goal the elimination of the DOE. Bush let Ted Kennedy sign off on a mammoth increase in that bastard. Lest we forget Medicare. Democrats increase spending on health care and it's "socialism" and "communism" and the end of the Republic and all that stupid nonsense you jack off to. Saint George the Innocent does the same, if not worse, and, well, hey, al Qaeda.




I seem to do so because you haven't a clue about conservatism. You are a useful idiot and it's not surprising given that GWB's dick is down your throat. Google "old right" and begin your education.
You coward. Way to stay safely in your cynical posting world instead of explaining you opinion. Thanks for the google though. Speaking of Kennedy, who did more bills that kennedy was for? Bush or your conservative Clinton?

Marcus Bryant
12-23-2009, 07:56 PM
"Coward"? Cowardliness is living vicariously through the state, as you do.

Winehole23
12-23-2009, 08:01 PM
Speaking of Kennedy, who did more bills that kennedy was for? Bush or your conservative Clinton?NCLB was a doozy. One-size fits all federalization of educational standards, is conservative how?

spursncowboys
12-23-2009, 08:07 PM
"Coward"? Cowardliness is living vicariously through the state, as you do.
That is great. You couldn't answer my simple questions. Keep stating ridiculous statements without any facts. Bill Clinton is more conservative? Really dumbass? Why? What exactly did he ever do to be considered conservative?

Marcus Bryant
12-23-2009, 08:09 PM
Spending. Centralization. Deficits. And shitting on the Constitution. You name it, Clinton did less of it than GWB. How exactly do you measure conservatism other than the labels you are spoon fed? Take off your bib and grow up.

spursncowboys
12-23-2009, 08:09 PM
NCLB was a doozy. One-size fits all federalization of educational standards, is conservative how?
It was a good indicator of the failure of public schools and the need for a voucher system. I guess for the same people who thought desegregation was against conservtism, then nothing bush did would be considered conservative.

Marcus Bryant
12-23-2009, 08:13 PM
Well that's an open ended prescription for the state. Segregation is not a concern in the 21st century. God. Damn.

spursncowboys
12-23-2009, 08:13 PM
Spending. Centralization. Deficits. And shitting on the Constitution. You name it, Clinton did less of it than GWB. How exactly do you measure conservatism other than the labels you are spoon fed? Take off your bib and grow up.
You are the one regurgitating Salon and NYT talking points. When I said what did Clinton do. I meant what did he push through or come up with. Not what did he sign or avoid because the popular winds of the Conservative Contract with America made him do things to keep his numbers up. If you are saying that he did not dictate his policy based on polling data then you are one with a bib. Though you aren't a kid, just a retard unable to think for himself.

Marcus Bryant
12-23-2009, 08:14 PM
Though LOL @ pulling the race card when you have no argument. I thought only "liberals" did that.

Winehole23
12-23-2009, 08:14 PM
I think maybe you missed the comparative, SnC. MB said Clinton was more conservative than Bush, not that Clinton was conservative per se.

spursncowboys
12-23-2009, 08:17 PM
Well that's an open ended prescription for the state. Segregation is not a concern in the 21st century. God. Damn.
Coward. Still doing the negative bit huh. You act like a politician.

Marcus Bryant
12-23-2009, 08:19 PM
You are the one regurgitating Salon and NYT talking points. When I said what did Clinton do. I meant what did he push through or come up with. Not what did he sign or avoid because the popular winds of the Conservative Contract with America made him do things to keep his numbers up. If you are saying that he did not dictate his policy based on polling data then you are one with a bib. Though you aren't a kid, just a retard unable to think for himself.

Yeah, the editorial boards of the Times and Salon are in favor of eliminating the DOE.

Virtually everything Bush did domestically was poll driven.

You aren't a conservative. Maybe a Scoop Jackson Democrat. Perhaps.

Winehole23
12-23-2009, 08:19 PM
When I said what did Clinton do.Welfare reform and reducing deficits. How does Bush stand on those two?

spursncowboys
12-23-2009, 08:20 PM
I think maybe you missed the comparative, SnC. MB said Clinton was more conservative than Bush, not that Clinton was conservative per se.
Please WH, no more "you misunderstood" posts towards me. I got it. The problem is it is a blanket comparison. I am not saying state why he is more conservative than bush, I'm making it easy. Just why is he conservative at all. Do you disagree that the record of Slick Willy is more to the majority of Conservatives in Congress than his own agenda?

spursncowboys
12-23-2009, 08:26 PM
Yeah, the editorial boards of the Times and Salon are in favor of eliminating the DOE.

Virtually everything Bush did domestically was poll driven.

You aren't a conservative. Maybe a Scoop Jackson Democrat. Perhaps.
Oh the guy who decides who is a conservative. I have heard about you. Never knew I would find u in ST. I don't need a label or elitist blogger to tell me how to think. I know what I believe is best for my city, state, and country. I also know what our political landscape is without feeling the need to parrot the same anarchist nonsense that a punk band would do. Keep up with the whole "they all suck, I'm enlightened to their shenanigans and will be able to lead you, the neanderthal, to the promise land" schtick.

Winehole23
12-23-2009, 08:28 PM
It was a good indicator of the failure of public schools and the need for a voucher system.Therefore we need more shitty, expensive, top-down federal solutions? I don't see how that follows.


I guess for the same people who thought desegregation was against conservtism, then nothing bush did would be considered conservative.For whom? Were you talking to me?

Desegregation was not considered conservative then. Must it be now?

Was desegregation, alone among federal initiatives, magically immune to the law of unintended consequences?

Winehole23
12-23-2009, 08:35 PM
Keep up with the whole "they all suck, I'm enlightened to their shenanigans and will be able to lead you, the neanderthal, to the promise land" schtick.I don't think Marcus offered to lead you anywhere, SnC. If anything, I got the opposite impresssion.

spursncowboys
12-23-2009, 08:37 PM
Welfare reform and reducing deficits. How does Bush stand on those two?
You are giving Clinton credit for welfare reform? After all the "vetoes, flip-flopping, and obstructionism"?
here's a good article about that.
http://rpc.senate.gov/releases/1999/wf080599.htm

Greenspan blamed the loss of the surplus on the recession that started under Clinton. Though I consider Conservative cutting taxes all the way down the board then raising taxes on the upper and middle class to pay for more social programs directed only towards the lower class. That and trying to nationalize healthcare.

spursncowboys
12-23-2009, 08:45 PM
Therefore we need more shitty, expensive, top-down federal solutions? I don't see how that follows.

For whom? Were you talking to me?

Desegregation was not considered conservative then. Must it be now?

Was desegregation, alone among federal initiatives, magically immune to the law of unintended consequences?
That was not a shot at you or a race bait. Just a comment toward the movement of the conservatives.

Winehole23
12-23-2009, 08:48 PM
Just why is he conservative at all. You sidestepped the comparison. I get that.


Do you disagree that the record of Slick Willy is more to the majority of Conservatives in Congress than his own agenda?More [conservative than?]the majority of conservatives in Congress? Much hangs on who counts as a "real" conservative. If the present GOP minority resembles the erstwhile majority, what MB said is not beyond plausibility IMO; it is even likely.

Marcus Bryant
12-23-2009, 10:40 PM
WH, have you had a chance to read Raimondo's Reclaiming the American Right (http://www.amazon.com/Reclaiming-American-Right-Conservative-Background/dp/1933859601/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261625982&sr=8-1)?

sabar
12-24-2009, 01:04 AM
It is far too late for anything to change. The people will take their bread and circuses. The question is, how long until we suffer the same fate as the Romans?

All democracy is destined to become authoritarian. I'm just along for the ride at this point.

Winehole23
12-24-2009, 02:46 AM
WH, have you had a chance to read Raimondo's Reclaiming the American Right (http://www.amazon.com/Reclaiming-American-Right-Conservative-Background/dp/1933859601/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261625982&sr=8-1)?No. Of late, I've not been reading much at all.

The nutshell I can guess from the linked reviews. If you had to review it on a bar napkin, Marcus, what would you say?

Ignignokt
12-24-2009, 03:16 AM
No. Of late, I've not been reading much at all.

The nutshell I can guess from the linked reviews. If you had to review it on a bar napkin, Marcus, what would you say?

He'd write his number and ask you over to talk more in "depth" and for a nice "massage".

Winehole23
12-24-2009, 03:55 AM
More gay baiting. What a surprise. What took you so long?

Winehole23
12-24-2009, 03:55 AM
I guess that's what happens when gtown stops blowing himself for long enough to type something out.

Ignignokt
12-24-2009, 04:00 AM
:blah:blah:blah

Hey, just because you can do it.. doesn't mean everyone can.

Ignignokt
12-24-2009, 04:01 AM
More gay baiting. What a surprise. What took you so long?

I was just trying to bail you out by contributing slightly less than you.

Winehole23
12-24-2009, 04:22 AM
Funny, you do it the same time way every time. You suggest I'm gay, or a woman.

Winehole23
12-24-2009, 04:27 AM
Why don't you go hump a big government sandcastle, gtown?

Winehole23
12-24-2009, 04:28 AM
If you like, you can pretend it's a gay bathhouse.

Ignignokt
12-24-2009, 11:04 AM
Funny, you do it the same time way every time. You suggest I'm gay, or a woman.

Likewise. You first bitch about the method, then proceed to do it. I'm glad this kind of debauched posting style gets your more motivated than discussing the actual issues. :lmao

Winehole23
12-24-2009, 11:16 AM
What can I say, gtown. You bring it out in people. It's sort of like your minor superpower.

Winehole23
12-24-2009, 11:18 AM
Feel free to make a topical comment, if you have any.

Ignignokt
12-24-2009, 05:19 PM
Feel free to make a topical comment, if you have any.

Why do you want to turn this forum into the TMZ forum?

Winehole23
12-24-2009, 06:09 PM
???

Winehole23
12-24-2009, 06:18 PM
Still sore about the Palin post?

Ignignokt
12-24-2009, 07:20 PM
Still sore about the Palin post?

Hey bud, merry christmas.. go out there and have a good time.. We will have all of 2010 for me to bring enlightenment and you shame. :lol


:toast

Wild Cobra
12-24-2009, 10:57 PM
What is tragic is that big government conservatism is not only real, it is the conservative mainstream. It has been, with only periodic interruption, since WWII.

"Big-Government Conservatism" sounds like an oxymoron, but it is actually a description.
I disagree. I would say many politicians hide under that label. We haven't had a conservative in office since Reagan.

Wild Cobra
12-24-2009, 11:02 PM
I think maybe you missed the comparative, SnC. MB said Clinton was more conservative than Bush, not that Clinton was conservative per se.
I don't know if he was more conservative, but the current congress Clinton had I think help shaped the administration.

President Bush had both his strong points and his faults. I think those of you more liberal here would have heard us conservative complain much more about president Bush if the unwarranted attacks weren't present. With all that going on, I would say none of us wanted to add to the fodder.

Winehole23
12-27-2009, 05:56 AM
President Bush had both his strong points and his faults. I think those of you more liberal here would have heard us conservative complain much more about president Bush if the unwarranted attacks weren't present. With all that going on, I would say none of us wanted to add to the fodder.In other words, you let other shitheads prevent you from speaking your mind. I'm not surprised at all by that.

Conveniently, that's hardly distinguishable in function and significance from not having had any objection at all.

Winehole23
12-27-2009, 06:04 AM
I disagree. I would say many politicians hide under that label. We haven't had a conservative in office since Reagan.Did Reagan shrink government or decrease the deficit?

A simple yes or no will do...

EVAY
12-27-2009, 07:12 AM
It was a good indicator of the failure of public schools and the need for a voucher system. I guess for the same people who thought desegregation was against conservtism, then nothing bush did would be considered conservative.

There is nothing at all conservative (in the sense of smaller government) about vouchers. The notion of the government paying individuals to let their kids get out of public schools was a thinly veiled attempt to get past the state/religion divide by the religious right who wanted their kids to go to a religious school on someone else's dime. How is that conservative? I personally don't even see how it is constitutional, but I'm not a lawyer, so I can't really assess that.

If someone in this country wants their kid to go to a private and/or religious school, that is their prerogative in this great country. But, they can pay for it themselves and not force my tax dollars to support it when I am already contributing tax dollars to the school fund. Forcing others to pay for that is not conservativism in any way shape or form.

Wild Cobra
12-27-2009, 02:34 PM
Did Reagan shrink government or decrease the deficit?

A simple yes or no will do...
No, but that's a front loaded problem.

Have you ever checked out my claims about the double-digit inflation rate and double-digit rates on bonds authorized by congress before he was in office?

Do you understand Compound Interest?

Now I guess he could have spent less on military things, but the debt would have skyrocketed anyway, and the Berlin Wall would probably still be separating families.

Winehole23
12-27-2009, 03:24 PM
No, but that's a front loaded problem.

Have you ever checked out my claims about the double-digit inflation rate and double-digit rates on bonds authorized by congress before he was in office?What are those claims, and what do they have to do with shrinking government or the deficit?


Now I guess he could have spent less on military things, but the debt would have skyrocketed anyway, and the Berlin Wall would probably still be separating families.You admit St. Ronnie didn't deliver on promises to get the government out of our lives and that he wasn't fiscally conservative. Yet you still make excuses for him. Touching.

SouthernFried
12-27-2009, 04:34 PM
No such thing as big govt conservatism...since conservatism inherently means small govt.

Conservatives can take over an already big govt. But, unless they can shrink it by 50%...it wont be small govt.

So, you can get conservatives in Big govt...but it isn't big govt "conservatism." It's just a conservative in charge of big govt.

...and its only happened once in the last 60 yrs. With Reagan.

Shrinking govt by 50% will never happen in my lifetime. It will take a complete revolution on the order of the American Revolution to make it happen. Or, the country will go completely bankrupt and will shrink only because the money ran out.

Now, regarding Reagan. Reagan was a fiscal conservative. His first budget had the budget balanced in a few years...it just wasn't passed. As we all know, Democrats owned Congress at that time. So, you can be a fiscal conservative, and still see spending grow ( remember, SS is "mandated by law" to go up every year. Until that is remedied, you will never see a smaller govt. Even if Ron Paul was in charge.)

Yes, Reagan signed the budget bills that did get to his office. So, you can make a case for him not being fiscally conservative because he signed more spending. Politics being the way they were at the time, I can understand Reagans dilemma. Politics being the way they are at this time...it doesn't matter to the debate. "Reagan spent, he's a big spending liberal."

So be it...whatever makes your day.

He's not, and never was.

There is no such thing as "big govt conservatism." Never has been...never will. You can make up words all you like, it's the "in" thing to do anyway.

Even if they don't mean a thing but to try and give yourself a cute talking point.

...and so it goes.

EVAY
12-27-2009, 05:18 PM
No such thing as big govt conservatism...since conservatism inherently means small govt.

Conservatives can take over an already big govt. But, unless they can shrink it by 50%...it wont be small govt.

So, you can get conservatives in Big govt...but it isn't big govt "conservatism." It's just a conservative in charge of big govt.

...and its only happened once in the last 60 yrs. With Reagan.

Shrinking govt by 50% will never happen in my lifetime. It will take a complete revolution on the order of the American Revolution to make it happen. Or, the country will go completely bankrupt and will shrink only because the money ran out.

Now, regarding Reagan. Reagan was a fiscal conservative. His first budget had the budget balanced in a few years...it just wasn't passed. As we all know, Democrats owned Congress at that time. So, you can be a fiscal conservative, and still see spending grow ( remember, SS is "mandated by law" to go up every year. Until that is remedied, you will never see a smaller govt. Even if Ron Paul was in charge.)

Yes, Reagan signed the budget bills that did get to his office. So, you can make a case for him not being fiscally conservative because he signed more spending. Politics being the way they were at the time, I can understand Reagans dilemma. Politics being the way they are at this time...it doesn't matter to the debate. "Reagan spent, he's a big spending liberal."

So be it...whatever makes your day.

He's not, and never was.

There is no such thing as "big govt conservatism." Never has been...never will. You can make up words all you like, it's the "in" thing to do anyway.

Even if they don't mean a thing but to try and give yourself a cute talking point.

...and so it goes.


No, this really doesn't hold water. Reagan's doubling of the national debt during his presidency was because he pursued 'supply-side' economics, or as G.H,W,Bush aptly named it, 'voodoo economics'.

You can't just claim that any time a Republican (namely Reagan in this instance) doubled the national debt, 'it was the other guy's fault.' Nonsense.

This is basic arithmetic. He reduced revenues through tax cuts and increased defense spending by boatloads, and the simple fact is that HIS POLICIES of simultaneously decreasing revenues and increasing expenditure (for things he wanted to do) doubled the national debt. That is NOT conservatism.

Reagan succeeded in bankrupting the Soviet Union and bringing the Cold War to a close. Congratulate him for that. But don't pretend that he didn't simultaneously set the stage for the out of control deficits that almost bankrupted this nation at the same time.

Wild Cobra
12-27-2009, 05:21 PM
WH, I have explained it several times in other threads. You must have your blinders on. I don't feel like explaining it again right now. Maybe if I put a little more Coffee in my Bailey's...

But not now.

Wild Cobra
12-27-2009, 05:27 PM
Here is what I said the last time I explained the thing with bonds:

And you forget about the E-Series bonds. They had a minimum guaranteed interest rate of 4%, or the market based yield, which ever was higher. They were sold at a 75% value for a 5 year maturity, but continued to gain interest for 40 years. When the Carter administration created high inflation, these bonds continue to be worth more and more. People held on to them as long as they could because they were great investments.

The ones good for 40 years were first issued in 1941. Guess what. They no longer gained interest in 1981, so people sold or converted them raising the deficit. These 5/40 year bonds were issued until 1965. However, in July 1980, the Carter administration fucked the Reagan administration by approving the EE series bond. This bond guaranteed a 5 year return of double the investment (15.9%) and a guaranteed minimum 6% or 7.5% rate afterward depending on issue date. You can be sure smart investors cashed the E series in for EE series, and the banks held something like 85% of them. You can be certain these 85% were part of the early 80's deficit numbers.

WH, EVAY...

Think about those rates and compound interest, what it did to the deficits and debt while Regan was in office.

nuclearfm
12-27-2009, 05:48 PM
I think maybe you missed the comparative, SnC. MB said Clinton was more conservative than Bush, not that Clinton was conservative per se.

Conservative means a lot of different things depending on the audience. Nowadays, the GOP refers to conservative as mainly social conservatism or more bluntly pro WASP (male) agenda. That's pretty much what a GOP politician means (usually when they're emotional) when they claim conservatism, but when you question the content of it they lean towards being a Libertarian, when that is FAR from the case. In conclusion, words don't mean shit anymore. Nobody is really a conservative or a liberal, fascists, etc... what people are, are bat shit insane, smart, stupid, clever, prejudiced, rich, racist etc.

ChumpDumper
12-27-2009, 06:28 PM
Here is what I said the last time I explained the thing with bonds:


WH, EVAY...

Think about those rates and compound interest, what it did to the deficits and debt while Regan was in office.You don't have any real budget numbers to back up your made up shit.

spursncowboys
12-27-2009, 06:47 PM
Conservative means a lot of different things depending on the audience. Nowadays, the GOP refers to conservative as mainly social conservatism or more bluntly pro WASP (male) agenda. That's pretty much what a GOP politician means (usually when they're emotional) when they claim conservatism, but when you question the content of it they lean towards being a Libertarian, when that is FAR from the case. In conclusion, words don't mean shit anymore. Nobody is really a conservative or a liberal, fascists, etc... what people are, are bat shit insane, smart, stupid, clever, prejudiced, rich, racist etc.

I think the liberal pro-life group considers conservative socially. If you ask a normal person what a conservative is, 40% of them will say they are. Another higher percent would say lower taxes, supply side economics, pro-life, traditional American values (however you want to interpret that) and smaller government. It seems the libs, listening to PMSNBC, believe most people that are conservative are bible thumpers.
Just because there are alot of conservatives who are pro-life christians doesn't mean shit. Most of the country is that. It is a shame that to be a democrat now you have to avoid patriotic things and anything pertaining to god. To you words aren't anything unless it advances your beliefs.

spursncowboys
12-27-2009, 06:52 PM
Did Reagan shrink government or decrease the deficit?

A simple yes or no will do...
Did Reagan break USSR's back? Did he do it with appeasement? I wonder how much money Clnton got to utilize with the reduction of our military because of Reagan's ability to win the Cold War?

Marcus Bryant
12-27-2009, 08:28 PM
I disagree. I would say many politicians hide under that label. We haven't had a conservative in office since Reagan.

Since Coolidge. Reagan was no conservative.

Marcus Bryant
12-27-2009, 08:33 PM
No. Of late, I've not been reading much at all.

The nutshell I can guess from the linked reviews. If you had to review it on a bar napkin, Marcus, what would you say?

I've just started it myself. I'd say that there wasn't much of a "Right" during the 30s. The "Old Right" seems like wishful thinking. There were opponents of the New Deal, but they came from all corners. And before I forget, I think what would be thought of these days as a 'very conservative' Democrat would be someone most in line with the original thought of the "Founders."

The Republican Party was one of the first parties to push for the centralization of the federal government. I guess that's a measure of where we are at, as far as the Constitution is concerned.

spursncowboys
12-27-2009, 08:51 PM
I've just started it myself. I'd say that there wasn't much of a "Right" during the 30s. The "Old Right" seems like wishful thinking. There were opponents of the New Deal, but they came from all corners. And before I forget, I think what would be thought of these days as a 'very conservative' Democrat would be someone most in line with the original thought of the "Founders."

The Republican Party was one of the first parties to push for the centralization of the federal government. I guess that's a measure of where we are at, as far as the Constitution is concerned.

Isn't there a PM for this kind of smoked filled room crap?

Marcus Bryant
12-27-2009, 08:54 PM
Fuck you. This is the "smoked filled room."

Winehole23
12-28-2009, 12:57 AM
Did Reagan break USSR's back? Did he do it with appeasement? I wonder how much money Clnton got to utilize with the reduction of our military because of Reagan's ability to win the Cold War?What was important about Reagan, then, wasn't that he was a conservative in any recognizable sense, but that he was a liberal interventionist who enhanced US national greatness. Right?