Duncan v. KG: better defender

[JamStone]

I bring this up as a genuine debate. I think it's close enough and each player has a strong enough argument that it warrants a serious discussion. And I'm talking for their careers, not just now. So who has been the better defender over their respective careers. Make your case.

Here is some background stats and accomplishments to consider, though they are not the only things to consider. I'm listing their career per 36 minutes defensive stats. The per 36 minutes allows for a more even analysis. I'm not bringing up per 36 to help either player. I just think it offers a more even playing field, personally. It's ok if you disagree, but that's how I feel.

Tim Duncan
8.4 defensive rebounds per 36 minutes (drp36)
2.3 blocks per 36 minutes (bp36)
0.7 steals per 36 minutes (sp36)
100 career defensive rating (DRtg)

8 all NBA defense 1st team
4 all NBA defense 2nd team

Kevin Garnett
8.1 drp36
1.6 bp36
1.3 sp36
99 DRtg

1 DPOY
8 all NBA defense 1st team
2 all NBA defense 2nd team

Career playoffs per 36 minute stats

Tim Duncan
8.3 drp36
2.4 bp36
0.6 sp36
97 DRtg

Kevin Garnett
8.4 drp36
1.4 bp36
1.2 sp36
100 DRtg

Stats for both players are pretty similar, as well as accomplishments and individual accolades. Duncan is a slightly better rebounder in the regular season over his career. KG a slightly better rebounder in the playoffs, but the difference for each isn't very much. Duncan a much better shot blocker, while KG is more active in getting steals. The difference in defensive ratings is negligible, but Duncan does have the edge in the playoffs.

So I know there is a lot of bias on these boards especially. But try to answer objectively and explain your opinion. Forget that KG is a fucking douchebag for a minute. Who has been the better defender over the course of their careers?

[Mavs_man_41]

Kg

[Texas_Ranger]

Td

[dbreiden83080]

I'd say they are about even, 2 of the best to ever play D at their spot..

[Venti Quattro]

Depends on what style you like -- intense or boring

[dbreiden83080]

Depends on what style you like -- intense or boring

I like the Rapist style..

[Culburn369]

Duncan, before he took up the rocking chair.

[Goran Dragic]

I'd say they are about even, 2 of the best to ever play D at their spot..


lol MMGay

[Fortune Cookie]

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab257/dirosmit/fcsvgd12.jpg

[Venti Quattro]

I like the Rapist style..
We're talking about defense here, not offense.

[IronMexican]

Duncan

[dbreiden83080]

I'm so GAY!!

[dbreiden83080]

We're talking about defense here, not offense.

99% of all D is boring?? Nobody leaving a game talks about man to man D and rebounding in the parking lot as a highlight..

[Goran Dragic]

No, actually not, I don't enjoy watching men role around in spandex.

[dbreiden83080]

No, actually not, I don't enjoy watching men role around in spandex.

Yeah cage fighting is so gay, throwing a ball threw a hoop and pressing your hands on their sweaty smelly asses, on D is so much straighter.. :lol

[Goran Dragic]

Yeah cage fighting is so gay, throwing a ball threw a hoop and pressing your hands on their sweaty smelly asses, on D is so much straighter.. :lol


You seem to enjoy it seeing that you're posting in the NBA forum. And I don't understand what you mean with sticking hands on asses, I've never seen someone grab the ass of the person he's defending. You must have been watching some MMA basketball fundraiser.

[dbreiden83080]

You seem to enjoy it seeing that you're posting in the NBA forum.

I love Basketball and Football and Boxing and MMA and Baseball. What do you watch, Golf, table tennis and figure skating??


So this is gay...

http://www.weight-lifting-to-gain-weight.com/images/GSP-vs-Penn-2.jpg

And this is straight

http://blogs.suntimes.com/sportsprose/michael-jordan-scottie-pippen.jpg

Got ya.. :lol

[Goran Dragic]

So this is gay...

http://www.weight-lifting-to-gain-weight.com/images/GSP-vs-Penn-2.jpg

And this is straight

http://blogs.suntimes.com/sportsprose/michael-jordan-scottie-pippen.jpg

Got ya.. :lol


Generally a contact sport involving topless men is gayer than a contact sport requiring clothing.

[Goran Dragic]

http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlLA/original/mma.jpg

[dbreiden83080]

Generally a contact sport involving topless men is gayer than a contact sport requiring clothing.

I see so Boxing is GAY!!!

http://image3.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID3880/images/Mike_Tyson.jpg

Bunch of fags, knock it off..

[dbreiden83080]

http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlLA/original/mma.jpg

Since this isn't the point of the thread i am going to end it here, take it the MMA forum if you like..

[Goran Dragic]

I see so Boxing is GAY!!!

http://image3.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID3880/images/Mike_Tyson.jpg

Bunch of fags, knock it off..


Do men ever role around with each other in boxing?

[dbreiden83080]

Do men ever role around with each other in boxing?

MMA forum..

[Goran Dragic]

MMA forum..


If I wanted to look at playgirl photos I'd just buy the magazine.

[dbreiden83080]

Trolls around this place used to try harder..

[O-Factor]

There is no argument here. Duncan has been a better defender. Duncan has been screwed out DPOY AT LEAST twice in his career. Not to mention Duncan has a huge edge in intangibles.

A better question is this. Ask 30 GMs who they would of rather built a team around if they had drafted either Tim or Kev as rookies. I bet all 30 including Danny Ainge pick Duncan. Better defender, better leader, better player.

[Goran Dragic]

Trolls around this place used to try harder..


People like you who get butthurt so easily make it so we don't have to.

[dbreiden83080]

There is no argument here. Duncan has been a better defender. Duncan has been screwed out DPOY AT LEAST twice in his career. Not to mention Duncan has a huge edge in intangibles.

A better question is this. Ask 30 GMs who they would of rather built a team around if they had drafted either Tim or Kev as rookies. I bet all 30 including Danny Ainge pick Duncan. Better defender, better leader, better play.

Duncan has been screwed multiple times out of DPOY.. KG got it in a year where his stats were no better than years Timmy came like in 3rd with the voting..

[dbreiden83080]

People like you who get butthurt so easily make it so we don't have to.

Who's butt-hurt?? you made a comment, I owned you horribly, end of story..

[Goran Dragic]

Who's butt-hurt??


the person who got really anrgy at someone who said MMGay.

[Culburn369]

Hey, Goran, you goin' tonite? Have an extra ducat for old Cubby?

[Johnny RIngo]

Now: KG
Career: Duncan

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

What Ringo said. The big difference maker at this point is their overall health. With the exception of that knee injury Garnett's never really had any big injuries over his career, while Duncan's knees and ankles have had nagging issues over the last few years. All legs being equal I'd take Duncan.

[dirk4mvp]

There is no argument here. Duncan has been a better defender. Duncan has been screwed out DPOY AT LEAST twice in his career. Not to mention Duncan has a huge edge in intangibles.

A better question is this. Ask 30 GMs who they would of rather built a team around if they had drafted either Tim or Kev as rookies. I bet all 30 including Danny Ainge pick Duncan. Better defender, better leader, better player.

No. You're retarded.

[j.dizzle]

i would take a healthy duncan in his prime anyday of the week..He's got that I dont need to pound my chest & cuss every 3 seconds" swagger..I love that about duncan, hes a quiet killer.

[Mavs_man_41]

i didn't stop and take the time to read the whole thing, but i'd just like to point out that men who like mma have underlying homoerotic tendencies..jus sayin

[Kenny Powers]

Listen up you beautiful bitches, I'm about to fuck ya'll up with some truth. This really isn't even a debate. It's about winning. Duncan has won more shit as a professional sports player than Garnett has. Just like I've won more baseball shit than that bitch Reg Macworthy. That's why I'm Kenny Fucking Powers, and Duncan is Tim Fucking Duncan. 'Cause we're winners and that's what winners do. Win.

[Mavs_man_41]

Listen up you beautiful bitches, I'm about to fuck ya'll up with some truth. This really isn't even a debate. It's about winning. Duncan has won more shit as a professional sports player than Garnett has. Just like I've won more baseball shit than that bitch Reg Macworthy. That's why I'm Kenny Fucking Powers, and Duncan is Tim Fucking Duncan. 'Cause we're winners and that's what winners do. Win.

man, you registered and had to wait a week to be activated just for that bullshit!? :lmao back to the drawing board

[Kenny Powers]

Why don't you go suck on a cock-shaped, jelly-filled donut, you fucking square.

[ffadicted]

Td

[Mavs_man_41]

Why don't you go suck on a cock-shaped, jelly-filled donut, you fucking square.

sure, i'll eat a donut and leave all the real cock sucking to a true faggot like someone who makes a kenny powers troll

[spursncowboys]

Duncan. He didn't create the lock out and instead took paycuts with the end result being The Spurs, with Duncan as the anchor, are in talks as the greatest team of the decade.
4GdB30O0zt4

[spursncowboys]

Duncan. He didn't create the lock out and instead took paycuts with the end result being The Spurs, with Duncan as the anchor, are in talks as the greatest team of the decade.
4GdB30O0zt4

[HarlemHeat37]

Right now, Garnett is a slightly better defender..I'd like to see how Duncan would look with Perkins next to him though, but you could also use the argument that KG could have looked better earlier on in his career with a guy like Bowen there..

Overall, I think it's a toss-up..along with Ben Wallace, they're the 3 best defenders of this generation, no disrespect to one of my favorites Bruce Bowen..they get the credits due to having more of an effect due to being big men..

Garnett was always the better perimeter/pick&roll defender, while Duncan was always the better post defender and positional defender..I think it pretty much comes down to preference..this is a cop-out answer, but there really is no other answer IMO..

The advanced metrical stats are good numbers, but supporting cast always makes a difference, even in Drating and D win shares..defense is always a subjective argument IMO..

[lil_penny]

for defensive purposes as much as i hate garnett he seems to me to be the better of the two.. but for a better overall player its duncan by a landslide imo

[baseline bum]

Career, I'll take Duncan because he has been a great position defender who doesn't commit stupid fouls. Right now I think Garnett's probably better though. Tim's defense seems to have dropped off a lot these last two years.

[ElNono]

So I know there is a lot of bias on these boards especially. But try to answer objectively and explain your opinion. Forget that KG is a fucking douchebag for a minute. Who has been the better defender over the course of their careers?

I think points in the paint allowed is a better indicator than actual individual stats. Duncan changes a lot of shots, and that simply doesn't show in the stat sheet as a block or a steal... I'm sure KG does too, but I don't recall it being anywhere near as much as TD...
I don't even know what that number is or how it compares between the two, I just think it's probably a better indicator than individual stats, considering they both are the anchor of their respective defenses.

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

This is a tough one for me. I like Duncan's style, he's real quiet-like, keeps his trap shut, and just does his job. I got a little Injun in me as you folks know. That's how the Injuns handle their business, and that's how ol' Aldo The Apache likes it.

On the other hand, Kevin Garnett has had some pretty good success in scalpin' him some Natzi Lakers. And that's a somethin I like seein as well.

[JamStone]

I really think it's close, but I do think there's a very good argument for KG. I think he's a more versatile defender, better pick-and-roll big man defender, and plays the passing lanes better. While I would agree that Duncan is a better position defender and low block defender, I don't think his advantage in those areas are greater than KG's advantage as a versatile perimeter defender.

One of the biggest edges Duncan has as a defender is that he has been a better weakside defender and accumulates more blocked shots. However, I do think in this regard, it's important to note that throughout his career, Duncan has had the advantage of playing in a defensive scheme that allows for the big men to get more blocked shots. If you look at players like Nazr Mohammed, Rasho Nesterovic, and even Malik Rose, their blocked shots per 36 minutes where noticeably greater in the Spurs defensive schemes than before or after when they were on other teams. On average, they blocked 0.5 to 0.6 more shots per 36 minutes playing in the Spurs defensive schemes. It doesn't mean Duncan isn't a good shot blocker, but it does indicate that his blocked shots totals are boosted by the coaching schemes, perhaps similar to Steve Nash's assists numbers on the Phoenix Suns.

Similarly, as someone already indicated, until KG joined the Celtics, he didn't enjoy the coaching, schemes, or defensive caliber of teammates Duncan did, which allowed him to flourish so much on the defensive end. Having Pop's coaching and schemes and playing with other great defenders like Robinson (even later in his career) and Bruce Bowen (one of the elite perimeter defenders in the league) could very well have helped Duncan be so effective.

I take those things into consideration as well. I still think it's close, and wouldn't argue too adamantly against those who think it's Duncan. But for me, I do think I would take KG, mostly for his versatility and intensity (annoying as it is).

[mogrovejo]

Garnett was always the better perimeter/pick&roll defender, while Duncan was always the better post defender and positional defender..I think it pretty much comes down to preference..this is a cop-out answer, but there really is no other answer IMO.

I agree with this, therefore I have to pick KG. Because of this:


I really think it's close, but I do think there's a very good argument for KG. I think he's a more versatile defender, better pick-and-roll big man defender, and plays the passing lanes better. While I would agree that Duncan is a better position defender and low block defender, I don't think his advantage in those areas are greater than KG's advantage as a versatile perimeter defender.

and because they weren't/aren't playing in the 80s/90s, where agility was less important and there was more low post game.

[mystargtr34]

Right now, Garnett is a slightly better defender..I'd like to see how Duncan would look with Perkins next to him though, but you could also use the argument that KG could have looked better earlier on in his career with a guy like Bowen there..

Overall, I think it's a toss-up..along with Ben Wallace, they're the 3 best defenders of this generation, no disrespect to one of my favorites Bruce Bowen..they get the credits due to having more of an effect due to being big men..

Garnett was always the better perimeter/pick&roll defender, while Duncan was always the better post defender and positional defender..I think it pretty much comes down to preference..this is a cop-out answer, but there really is no other answer IMO..

The advanced metrical stats are good numbers, but supporting cast always makes a difference, even in Drating and D win shares..defense is always a subjective argument IMO..

Cant really put it any better than that to be honest. I i think it also depends on personell, or the big man they play next to. For example, on the Celtics, Garnett > Duncan because you have a shot blocking/positional defender in Perkins... where as in the Spurs system, Duncan > Garnett because there would be no real shot blocking or rim protection if you play Garnett next to McDyess.

If i had to pick one guy to build around defensively... i would take Duncan.. if only because the best big men in history have been guys who protect the rim and impact all 5 opposition players - but thats probly as much to do with my own bias.

You cant go wrong with either.

[Double-Up]

Prime KG is the best because he could defend athletic guards/forwards and dominant post men alike. See 2005 playoffs Suns vs Spurs...Stoudemire, Amare.

[HarlemHeat37]

To be fair, I think Stoudemire had around a 50-point game vs. KG in the game where Marbury took a subtle shot afterward..even the best get torched..

[TIMMYD!]

Tim should have at least two DPOYs.

[TD 21]

It's Duncan. He's an all-time elite rim protector/help defender and a more versatile man defender than he's given credit for.