13% of black men in late 20s in jail or prison

[Clandestino]

U.S. Prison Population Soars in 2003, '04

1 hour, 37 minutes ago U.S. National - AP


By SIOBHAN McDONOUGH, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Growing at a rate of about 900 inmates each week between mid-2003 and mid-2004, the nation's prisons and jails held 2.1 million people, or one in every 138 U.S. residents, the government reported Sunday.

By last June 30, there were 48,000 more inmates, or 2.3 percent, more than the year before, according to the latest figures from the Bureau of Justice Statistics.

The total inmate population has hovered around 2 million for the past few years, reaching 2.1 million on June 30, 2002, and just below that mark a year later.

While the crime rate has fallen over the past decade, the number of people in prison and jail is outpacing the number of inmates released, said the report's co-author, Paige Harrison. For example, the number of admissions to federal prisons in 2004 exceeded releases by more than 8,000, the study found.

Harrison said the increase can be attributed largely to get-tough policies enacted in the 1980s and 1990s. Among them are mandatory drug sentences, "three-strikes-and-you're-out" laws for repeat offenders, and "truth-in-sentencing" laws that restrict early releases.

"As a whole most of these policies remain in place," she said. "These policies were a reaction to the rise in crime in the '80s and early 90s."

Added Malcolm Young, executive director of the Sentencing Project, which promotes alternatives to prison: "We're working under the burden of laws and practices that have developed over 30 years that have focused on punishment and prison as our primary response to crime."


He said many of those incarcerated are not serious or violent offenders, but are low-level drug offenders. Young said one way to help lower the number is to introduce drug treatment programs that offer effective ways of changing behavior and to provide appropriate assistance for the mentally ill.


According to the Justice Policy Institute, which advocates a more lenient system of punishment, the United States has a higher rate of incarceration than any other country, followed by Britain, China, France, Japan and Nigeria.


There were 726 inmates for every 100,000 U.S. residents by June 30, 2004, compared with 716 a year earlier, according to the report by the Justice Department agency. In 2004, one in every 138 U.S. residents was in prison or jail; the previous year it was one in every 140.


In 2004, 61 percent of prison and jail inmates were of racial or ethnic minorities, the government said. An estimated 12.6 percent of all black men in their late 20s were in jails or prisons, as were 3.6 percent of Hispanic men and 1.7 percent of white men in that age group, the report said.


Other findings include:


_State prisons held about 2,500 youths under 18 in 2004. That compares with a peak, in 1995, of about 5,300. Local jails held about 7,000 youths, down from 7,800 in 1995.


_In the year ending last June 30, 13 states reported an increase of at least 5 percent in the federal system, led by Minnesota, at about 13 percent; Montana at 10.5 percent; Arkansas at 9 percent.


Among the 12 states that reported a decline in the inmate population were Alabama, 7 percent; Connecticut, 2.5 percent; and Ohio, 2 percent.


___


On the Net:

Bureau of Justice Statistics: www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs


maybe these tough policies are why the crime rate went down...

[Nbadan]

In 2004, 61 percent of prison and jail inmates were of racial or ethnic minorities, the government said. An estimated 12.6 percent of all black men in their late 20s were in jails or prisons, as were 3.6 percent of Hispanic men and 1.7 percent of white men in that age group, the report said.

Everything else being equal, Blacks and Hispanics are also more likely to be searched than caucasions. Drug abuse and selling runs equally rampant through almost every racial group and income status in the U.S., the difference is that minorities are usually the low-level dealers, and are more likely to be arrested or investigated by law enforcement. Especially once they are repeat offenders. I agree with the author that drug treatment and education can work better than incarcaration in most cases.

[exstatic]

The "war on drugs" has about as much relavence as the war in Vietnam: someone once thought they both were a good idea, and they both turned into money pits and charnal houses.

[MannyIsGod]

But no, slavery has no lingering effects on society. None.

[Clandestino]

crime has fallen, number of people in prisons has risen.. sounds like something good to me...

re:slavery... jews were slaves for a long time, but you don't see them topping the criminal charts...

[MannyIsGod]

Jewish assimilation and segregation is much different. It also doesn't change the fact that black slavery in the United States left at the very least indirect effects on today's society.

[timvp]

Damn, I only got three or four more years. Better make the most of it.

[exstatic]

Wear your shirt when the time comes, LJ. Much less chance to wind up on Cops. :lol

[Clandestino]

Jewish assimilation and segregation is much different. It also doesn't change the fact that black slavery in the United States left at the very least indirect effects on today's society.

you love to blame all the problems on slavery.. time for them to stop making excuses and do something productive...

[MannyIsGod]

Gun shot victims love blaming everything on the damn bullet too. Geez, why don't they hury up and heal already?

It is a FACT that slavery has had a negative effect on the African American population and you posted the statistics to back it up. I'm STILL waiting for a reason why slavery shouldn't be taken into account in these statistics.

[Gatita]

I say good riddens to bad rubbish. I would rather have them locked up in jail, then getting "treatment" or "counseling".

[desflood]

Gun shot victims love blaming everything on the damn bullet too. Geez, why don't they hury up and heal already?

It is a FACT that slavery has had a negative effect on the African American population and you posted the statistics to back it up. I'm STILL waiting for a reason why slavery shouldn't be taken into account in these statistics.
Because they are not slaves anymore. They now have choices. If they choose to commit crimes, I'll gladly help them on their way to prison.

[MannyIsGod]

Because they are not slaves anymore. They now have choices. If they choose to commit crimes, I'll gladly help them on their way to prison.
Individuals hav choices. You don't look at an entire segment of society and then catagorize what causes their actions by such a genralization.

I've made this arguement a million times, and what I wish people would understand when they decide to make the rebuttal that everyone has choices is that those two things are not mutally exclusive. Individuals can have a choice and slavery.

I sense that many people here have difficulty looking at from the sociological equivilant of a birds eye view. Yes, we are all individuals who have the ability to affect our outcomes with our choices, but when looking at an entire society individuals don't account for much.

An argument that slavery and the discrimination that followed it is not one that says a black person cannot make themselves into everything a white person can. It simply states that those afformentoined actions have had an effect on the entirety of black society as a whole; an effect we can still see today.

Success in life is not mearly dependent on your decisions. Many of the factors in this include the tpe of education you recieve, the type of environment you develop in, and whether or not you encounter any forms of discrimination in your life. This is overly simplified in order to make a point in one post.

Generations in the past encountered much more of the former; direct discrimination. But many subsequent generations, including the current one, suffer from negative results from the discrimination which in turn have led to a substandered level of education and developmental environment.

So whether or not you believe that there should be active intervention because of it, it is undenaible that slavery's ill effects are still felt today.

[MannyIsGod]

Because they are not slaves anymore. They now have choices. If they choose to commit crimes, I'll gladly help them on their way to prison.
Oh, and the most ironic thing about this post is the quote it's followed by in your signature.

[The Ressurrected One]

Crime is down and prison populations are up. There's got to be a correlation -- regardless of the race of the incarcerated.

Granted, if more white criminals were put in jail, crime would drop faster and prison populations would rise proportionally. However, making the argument that putting more blacks in jail than whites is unfair just doesn't wash.

Who really cares what the race of a criminal is, so long as he's behind bars? Would you really have them reduce the number of black criminals that are incarcerated simply because they're disproportionately represented in the prison population?

I notice that few are arguing the innocence of black prisoners -- just that they are disproportionately picked on...

I say we arrest more white criminals instead.

[MannyIsGod]

I'm all for putting all criminals in jail, and I never said otherwise. I'm talking about the dispraportions and what causes those rates of higher criminal activity in said culture.

[The Ressurrected One]

I'm all for putting all criminals in jail, and I never said otherwise.
Okay.

I'm talking about the dispraportions and what causes those rates of higher criminal activity in said culture.
I can answer that one. The cause is -- drum roll please -- CRIMINALS!

[desflood]

Oh, and the most ironic thing about this post is the quote it's followed by in your signature.
I thought you'd say that. What is their excuse for raising "broken men"?

[desflood]

Manny, you're a hell of a debator, but you should know this: When you consistently defend certain minorities as "victims of their society", even as they leave an ever-increasing number of true victims in their wake, it comes across as biased, even a tad prejudiced. I don't think you are (although my opinion probably means jack-squat to you), but it does come through in your arguments at times.

[SPARKY]

They're right where they belong.

http://www.themediadrome.com/Images/food/colonel_sanders.gif

[/tparkkk]

[The Ressurrected One]

Actually, Frederick Douglass was a strong defender of the U.S. Constitution and an avid admirer of the great men who founded this country and wrote that document -- even with it's flaws related to how blacks were treated.

Funny how few black leaders today can have the temperment and wisdom of Frederick Douglass.

In many of his speeches, Mr. Douglass refused to apply contemporary conventional wisdom to the founding fathers and, further, he recognized the difficulty with which those men were faced -- both abolitionists and pro-slavery colonialists.

But, I digress...referencing his signature quote from Frederick Douglass was irrelevant to the conversation.

[exstatic]

I say good riddens to bad rubbish. I would rather have them locked up in jail, then getting "treatment" or "counseling".
One of the most ignorant things I've seen posted here, and that's saying a lot. You'd better hope that if you ever come upon some unfortunate circumstances in your life that you don't run into someone with your level of "compassion". :flipoff

[The Ressurrected One]

One of the most ignorant things I've seen posted here, and that's saying a lot. You'd better hope that if you ever come upon some unfortunate circumstances in your life that you don't run into someone with your level of "compassion". :flipoff
unfortunate circumstance = criminal act?

Do elaborate...

[Clandestino]

there is no excuse for raping, murdering, dealing drugs, etc... do the crime, do the time. if more blacks C H O O S E to make their living illegally then more blacks will be incarcarated...

many mexicans who come over come from terrible lives, but the hispanic rate is way lower than the black rate...

it is their choice.. choose to work hard or choose to try to take the easy way out...

[exstatic]

Were those Mexicans ever slaves? Did they have to wait 100 years to go to public schools with white kids?

[Duff McCartney]

But no, slavery has no lingering effects on society. None.

Hold up man...that's a garbage excuse. Not a single black person in America has been a slave.

[Clandestino]

Were those Mexicans ever slaves? Did they have to wait 100 years to go to public schools with white kids?

many still don't get to go to school... there isn't much time when they are working with their parents picking strawberries and other vegetables...

[The Ressurrected One]

many still don't get to go to school... there isn't much time when they are working with their parents picking strawberries and other vegetables...
I think everyone is silly on this topic.

A) Slavery was abolished and there are no living ex-slaves today. In fact, there are very few slave descendents -- most of whom, I would argue -- are not the ones screaming for reparations. A very small percentage of "African-Americans" are either African or the descendents of slaves. Most are the children of legal immigrants from equatorial countries -- including some in Africa.

B) Migrant workers (most of whom are illegal aliens) are no different that early American Settlers who had to work their educations in around chores and other duties on the farms and ranches. I would argue that migrant workers come here simply because, even though the labor is hard, the conditions in America are still exponentially better than would be experienced in their own country. And, just because they cross the border to work, doesn't mean we're responsible for pulling them from the fields and forcing them into schools -- mostly at the objection of their parents. Sorry...I don't buy it.

C) Endentured Servitude, something my Irish ancestors endured, was every bit as oppressive and punitive as slavery and, in many respects, afforded the servant fewer rights than did slavery. At least, with slavery (as offensive as the prospect of owning another human being is) was somewhat safer in that a "prized" slave [read hard working and productive] was cherished and well-taken care of. There are many stories of slaves befriending their owners after emancipation and staying on as paid help. Endentured servitude on the other hand, generally ended up with the servant wasted and thrown out on the street when the person to whom he was endentured was done with him. Many were murdered (just like slaves) without any justice (just like slaves). Many worked for years without pay (just like slaves) but, unlike slaves, more than not, when their endentured servitude was done -- there was nowhere to turn...America didn't even attempt the type of reconstruction and support -- as ineffectual as it was in many cases -- that was afforded ex-slaves.

Sorry, I think black America needs to buck it up and quit whining...every other "victim" group that has been chewed up and spit out by America over the centuries has, for the most part, moved on and lived life without demanding some kind of reparation for past harm.

It's tiresome...

[Clandestino]

I think everyone is silly on this topic.

A) Slavery was abolished and there are no living ex-slaves today. In fact, there are very few slave descendents -- most of whom, I would argue -- are not the ones screaming for reparations. A very small percentage of "African-Americans" are either African or the descendents of slaves. Most are the children of legal immigrants from equatorial countries -- including some in Africa.

B) Migrant workers (most of whom are illegal aliens) are no different that early American Settlers who had to work their educations in around chores and other duties on the farms and ranches. I would argue that migrant workers come here simply because, even though the labor is hard, the conditions in America are still exponentially better than would be experienced in their own country. And, just because they cross the border to work, doesn't mean we're responsible for pulling them from the fields and forcing them into schools -- mostly at the objection of their parents. Sorry...I don't buy it.

C) Endentured Servitude, something my Irish ancestors endured, was every bit as oppressive and punitive as slavery and, in many respects, afforded the servant fewer rights than did slavery. At least, with slavery (as offensive as the prospect of owning another human being is) was somewhat safer in that a "prized" slave [read hard working and productive] was cherished and well-taken care of. There are many stories of slaves befriending their owners after emancipation and staying on as paid help. Endentured servitude on the other hand, generally ended up with the servant wasted and thrown out on the street when the person to whom he was endentured was done with him. Many were murdered (just like slaves) without any justice (just like slaves). Many worked for years without pay (just like slaves) but, unlike slaves, more than not, when their endentured servitude was done -- there was nowhere to turn...America didn't even attempt the type of reconstruction and support -- as ineffectual as it was in many cases -- that was afforded ex-slaves.

Sorry, I think black America needs to buck it up and quit whining...every other "victim" group that has been chewed up and spit out by America over the centuries has, for the most part, moved on and lived life without demanding some kind of reparation for past harm.

It's tiresome...

my comment was showing that even though the migrants have all the hardships even today, they still are not being jailed left and right like black men aged 20-30...

[JoeChalupa]

Proper upbringing and strong self-esteem go along way in my book.

[Clandestino]

it's that damn rap and hip hop music!

[The Ressurrected One]

Proper upbringing and strong self-esteem go along way in my book.
Actually, that is all that is needed...provided self-esteem follows achievement and not the politically correct other way around.

[The Ressurrected One]

it's that damn rap and hip hop music!
No, it's that damn, "don't be like whitey and education isn't cool," crap.

[JoeChalupa]

We reap what we sow. A seed is useless unless given the proper care it needs to grow. Anybody can plant a seed but not everyone can make it grow.

[The Ressurrected One]

We reap what we sow. A seed is useless unless given the proper care it needs to grow. Anybody can plant a seed but not everyone can make it grow.
Kum-bah-ya, Joe...Kum-bah-ya. Pass the bong.

[JoeChalupa]

Kum-bah-ya, Joe...Kum-bah-ya. Pass the bong.

Right on.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/psicon/Avatars%202/az3.gif

[mookie2001]

after wwII, blacks and all minorities in this country were FORCED to live in the city,
during the time of Levittowns and gross suburbanization of america (before wwII americans could not get a homeloans/mortgages) when the soldiers came back...blah blah baby boom etc... minorites could not get a loan, it was the regulations of these communities and perfectly legal to deny them housing, the housing they recieved were basically projects, large tennant apartment buildings in the inner-city, their land value declined rapidly and thus their income as well, and yeah a shitload turned to crime and the cycle continues,the housing regulations stopped in the 60's and 70's thats 35 years ago, 2 generations ago, 35 years from the government secretly sterilizing thousands and thousands of young minority mothers labled "feeble minded" and having "poor gentetics" as a society we're 35 years removed from that bullshit, and 60 years away from rounding up German AMERICANS, Japanese AMERICANS and Italian AMERICAS for no reason and forcing them into prison camps in CRYSTAL CITY TEXAS guys , right down the road, so quit the crap and get off the high horse of saying that slaverys over and its up to them to succed like -you wanna say "good old white americans"

[JoeChalupa]

after wwII, blacks and all minorities in this country were FORCED to live in the city,
during the time of Levittowns and gross suburbanization of america (before wwII americans could not get a homeloans/mortgages) when the soldiers came back...blah blah baby boom etc... minorites could not get a loan, it was the regulations of these communities and perfectly legal to deny them housing, the housing they recieved were basically projects, large tennant apartment buildings in the inner-city, their land value declined rapidly and thus their income as well, and yeah a shitload turned to crime and the cycle continues,the housing regulations stopped in the 60's and 70's thats 35 years ago, 2 generations, as a society we're 35 years removed from that bullshit, and 60 years away from rounding up German AMERICANS, Japanese AMERICANS and Italian AMERICAS for no reason and forcing them into prison camps in CRYSTAL CITY TEXAS guys , right down the road, so quit the crap and get off the high horse of saying that slaverys over and its up to them to suceed like -you wanna say "good old white americans"

I concur. Upon doing some history research into the history of US housing I found many cases of discrimination amongst minorities and how blacks did not qualify for government loans. It really is a very under reported part of our history.

[Clandestino]

mexicans have dealt with the same shit, but you don't see as many in jail.. what is reason?

[MannyIsGod]

I've made this arguement a million times, and what I wish people would understand when they decide to make the rebuttal that everyone has choices is that those two things are not mutally exclusive.

[mookie2001]

tejanos (such as myself) have been to jail (such as myself)

[Clandestino]

but 13% of mexicans in their late 20s are not currently in jail or prison...

[GoldToe]

mexicans have dealt with the same shit, but you don't see as many in jail.. what is reason?

Better luck? Better odds? Or could the reason be that more blacks have been busted and that is the reason.
Why psycho-analyze everything? It is what it is.

[mookie2001]

well i'm not sure
you might check the Mexican Prison system stats for that

[Clandestino]

well i'm not sure
you might check the Mexican Prison system stats for that

that has nothing to do with what we are talking about now... we are talking blacks in american prisons.. if you want worldwide, i guess you could look up african prison statistics

[mookie2001]

well you didnt say 13% of africans are in jail or prison

im not Mexican bitch

[Clandestino]

well you didnt say 13% of africans are in jail or prison

im not Mexican bitch

you understood... or maybe you didn't... you are probably on your way to jail or prison in the near future...

[mookie2001]

verdad piaso
los hermanos de pistolero

[The Ressurrected One]

I concur. Upon doing some history research into the history of US housing I found many cases of discrimination amongst minorities and how blacks did not qualify for government loans. It really is a very under reported part of our history.
There was discrimination against the Irish in the 1800's. There's currently discrimination against Koreans. Some cultures find a solution -- other whine and demand.

Boo-friggin'-hoo.

[MannyIsGod]

And others continue the discrimination.

[The Ressurrected One]

And others continue the discrimination.
Yeah, well blacks discriminate too. As do hispanics, asians, whites, etc...

The difference is there is no government sanctioned racial discrimination...unless you count affirmative action, preferential hiring, weighted university entrance requirements.

[MannyIsGod]

Actually, I think the vast majority of America is done discriminating on racial grounds. With the exception of the AA you mentoined, which I'm not a fan of.

But there has been a certain group that was central to all to the vast majority of discrimination in this country.

It's not the group with the most money as well, and suprise suprise, we've moved on to discrimnation based on finances.

[Clandestino]

it appears that a big percentage of blacks(aged 20-30) are trying to take the easy way out by choosing a path of criminal activities..this their choice...

[The Ressurrected One]

Actually, I think the vast majority of America is done discriminating on racial grounds. With the exception of the AA you mentoined, which I'm not a fan of.

But there has been a certain group that was central to all to the vast majority of discrimination in this country.

It's not the group with the most money as well, and suprise suprise, we've moved on to discrimnation based on finances.
That's a whole other argument...

[Guru of Nothing]

While deviating from the black discussion a little, THE REASON IS -> current drug laws + capitalism = bad chemistry.

We are literally taxed to death by our collective morality.

Oops, I think I'm getting off-topic.

[The Ressurrected One]

While deviating from the black discussion a little, THE REASON IS -> current drug laws + capitalism = bad chemistry.

We are literally taxed to death by our collective morality.

Oops, I think I'm getting off-topic.
Support the fair tax plan!

www.fairtax.org

[Spurminator]

Poverty combined with rabid Materialism.

[MannyIsGod]

Poverty combined with rabid Materialism.
Materlism in a society run by corporations? THE HELL YOU SAY!

[Clandestino]

racial profiling
+
poor people can't afford lawyers
=
more minorities in jail

yes, but that doesn't explain the 13% of blacks to 3% of mexicans in jail... i think some choose the easy way out...others work 2 jobs washing dishes, cooking, etc..

[Clandestino]

every problem that a hispanic has with the law is exponentially exacerbated in the case of being black

wtf ever!

and that is the wrong attitude... quit making excuses...do something to change your situation...

[Clandestino]

read some books

do you want me to read books about how young black males make excuses instead of trying to make a life for themself?

[bigzak25]

13% of black men in late 20s in jail or prison


87% of black men in late 20's NOT in jail or prison.

[Clandestino]

87% of black men in late 20's NOT in jail or prison.

97% of Mexicans

and

99% of Whites

N O T in jail of prison.

[Kori Ellis]

I believe that the large number of young blacks ending up in jail has a lot to do with growing up in single-parent households. Look at the numbers in this file in Table C3.

http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2003.html

The % of black kids living in a family with 2 married parents is 36%.
The % of hispanic kids living in a family with 2 married parents is 65%.
The % of white (non-hispanic) kids living in a family with 2 married parents is 77%.

I'm not saying that everyone who grows up without two parents is messed up and turns criminal. But the difference in percentages between the racial groups is definitely something to consider.

[MannyIsGod]

I believe that the large number of young blacks ending up in jail has a lot to do with growing up in single-parent households. Look at the numbers in this file in Table C3.

http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2003.html

The % of black kids living in a family with 2 married parents is 36%.
The % of hispanic kids living in a family with 2 married parents is 65%.
The % of white (non-hispanic) kids living in a family with 2 married parents is 77%.

I'm not saying that everyone who grows up without two parents is messed up and turns criminal. But the difference in percentages between the racial groups is definitely something to consider.
I think that is definetly a huge factor in that. In general, growing up in poverty and a poor environment increases the likelyhood you will fall into crime.

[Clandestino]

great find, but why do some choose to break the cycle and others don't? why do some choose to hide behind excuses and live a life of crime while others choose to try to get an education... college is available to everyone. especially poor minorities. loans and grants are abundant.

[MannyIsGod]

great find, but why do some choose to break the cycle and others don't? why do some choose to hide behind excuses and live a life of crime while others choose to try to get an education... college is available to everyone. especially poor minorities. loans and grants are abundant.
Because it's not that easy jackass. You're so self righteous in your stance on all of this and how they should have made the right decisions, but I wonder how you would have faired growing up in the projects.

It's not easy to grasp that going to college can be a good thing for you when the only life you've known is poverty and being surrounded by crime. It's not easy to understand that working hard in school is the way to succeed when that doesn't get you paid but slinging rock on the corner does. It's not easy when social acceptance comes not from doing well in school, but doing the opposite. It's harder still when the most successfull ones out of your culture aren't businessmen who go to school, but playground legends who play basketball for a living. Or when America glorifies the worst aspects of life in songs that get constant airplay on MTV and the radio. Who do you think is a bigger role model, Harriet Tubman, or 50 cent?

Give me a break. They do have decisions, and some choose to get out, but life isn't some multiple choice take home test with obvious answers.

[Clandestino]

Because it's not that easy jackass. You're so self righteous in your stance on all of this and how they should have made the right decisions, but I wonder how you would have faired growing up in the projects.

It's not easy to grasp that going to college can be a good thing for you when the only life you've known is poverty and being surrounded by crime. It's not easy to understand that working hard in school is the way to succeed when that doesn't get you paid but slinging rock on the corner does. It's not easy when social acceptance comes not from doing well in school, but doing the opposite. It's harder still when the most successfull ones out of your culture aren't businessmen who go to school, but playground legends who play basketball for a living. Or when America glorifies the worst aspects of life in songs that get constant airplay on MTV and the radio. Who do you think is a bigger role model, Harriet Tubman, or 50 cent?

Give me a break. They do have decisions, and some choose to get out, but life isn't some multiple choice take home test with obvious answers.

i grew up in a single parent family and so did my girlfriend. she didn't even have ac or anything like that. i grew up in a trailer. we both have succeeded in life. it does not take a genius to know that an education will get you out of poverty. and if you can't see that an education will get you out of the projects than you have more problems than can be solved...

[MannyIsGod]

i grew up in a single parent family and so did my girlfriend. she didn't even have ac or anything like that. i grew up in a trailer. we both have succeeded in life. it does not take a genius to know that an education will get you out of poverty. and if you can't see that an education will get you out of the projects than you have more problems than can be solved...
Did you grow up in the environment I talked about above?

[Clandestino]

Did you grow up in the environment I talked about above?

did you?

[MannyIsGod]

Actually, I started out in projects and up untill the age of 9 thats were we lived. No big deal, just had a gun pulled on me by the age of 8. But thats not the point, because even with all that I didn't grow up in that environment.

So, the answer to your question is no, I didn't.

[Clandestino]

Actually, I started out in projects and up untill the age of 9 thats were we lived. No big deal, just had a gun pulled on me by the age of 8. But thats not the point, because even with all that I didn't grow up in that environment.

So, the answer to your question is no, I didn't.

but you did til age 9 and you are not in jail or prison and seem to understand that education is key...

[Kori Ellis]

i grew up in a single parent family and so did my girlfriend. she didn't even have ac or anything like that. i grew up in a trailer. we both have succeeded in life. it does not take a genius to know that an education will get you out of poverty. and if you can't see that an education will get you out of the projects than you have more problems than can be solved...

Did your mom (or whoever raised you) help instill the importance of education to you?

This is probably not a good thing to say, but I think a lot of this is perpetuated by the attitude of single, black women with kids in the ghetto. Since they were "scorned" by their man and left with their children, they don't treat their sons properly. Instead of teaching them importance of family values, education, and long-term security, they only emphasize the importance of "doing whatever you can" to get out of the ghetto.

When young pre-teen and teenage boys see opportunities like drug dealing, guns, whatever to make money, they see that as the ticket out.

It's about providing role models for your children. And a big percentage of black women in lower income areas don't do that. They constantly are ragging on how all "niggas" don't take care of their women (yes, this is the fault of the men who aren't there to be dads too). Young girls grow up with the idea that all black men will treat them like dogs. Young boys grow up with the idea that all black women are just ho's. And it just perpetuates to the next generation.

The black male role models that these young boys have are either sports stars (a long shot for anyone to achieve) or gangstas turned rappers or movie stars. They aren't provided with black male role models who achieved success through education, starting a business, etc.

I used to coach inner city basketball in South Central LA (boys ages 14-17) and they were all looking for "the ticket out". Until their mothers start stressing that there's no ticket, but there's a plan. It will keep perpetuating to the next generation.

[MannyIsGod]

This is the last time I'm going to try to put it where you can grasp it, and if you don't get it after this, I sincerely give up.

That situation doesn't mean that you're going to end up in jail. It puts you in a position where you are more likely to go to jail. In other words, if you place a group of 100 people in that position, and you place 100 in a favorable position to succeed, which group do you think will have more people in jail?

They all had choices, and they all were told that college was the better way to go, but the group in the projects with undoubtbly show a much higher rate of incarceration. Just like in the study you posted.

That's not to say that they shouldn't be incarcerated if they commit a crime, but it does provide an understanding as to what is happening on a sociological level.

In other words, if you understand what is happening and what causes large groups of black americans to go down this path, you can start to solve and stop it.

But if we all just sit back and say they have choices, and that is the only thing we do about it, do not expect those numbers to change overnight. America has no problem exploiting those same groups. MTV , record labels, and the entertainment industry as a whole has made billions on the commercializing of the ghettos.

Critics everywhere love a movie like 8 mile because it shows that a person can succeed in that situation, but then everyone goes back to ignoring those people once again.

If Eminem is the beacon of hope for your community, that's pretty damn sad.

Slavery, discrimination, and poverty are not free passes for African Americans today. They still have to abide by the same laws as the rest of us. And I never said or even implied otherwise. But what needs to be recognized and tackled, is that as long as these people grow up in the same conditions as they do now, there will be a much higher rate of criminal activity.

[desflood]

Did your mom (or whoever raised you) help instill the importance of education to you?

This is probably not a good thing to say, but I think a lot of this is perpetuated by the attitude of single, black women with kids in the ghetto. Since they were "scorned" by their man and left with their children, they don't treat their sons properly. Instead of teaching them importance of family values, education, and long-term security, they only emphasize the importance of "doing whatever you can" to get out of the ghetto.

When young pre-teen and teenage boys see opportunities like drug dealing, guns, whatever to make money, they see that as the ticket out.

It's about providing role models for your children. And a big percentage of black women in lower income areas don't do that. They constantly are ragging on how all "niggas" don't take care of their women (yes, this is the fault of the men who aren't there to be dads too). Young girls grow up with the idea that all black men will treat them like dogs. Young boys grow up with the idea that all black women are just ho's. And it just perpetuates to the next generation.

The black male role models that these young boys have are either sports stars (a long shot for anyone to achieve) or gangstas turned rappers or movie stars. They aren't provided with black male role models who achieved success through education, starting a business, etc.

I used to coach inner city basketball in South Central LA (boys ages 14-17) and they were all looking for "the ticket out". Until their mothers start stressing that there's no ticket, but there's a plan. It will keep perpetuating to the next generation.
I believe that every time another single woman has a child without a father, it sends a message to young men that says, "Kids don't need fathers." But when those same men don't want to take care of their kids... aren't they getting conflicting messages? :huh

[The Ressurrected One]

This is the last time I'm going to try to put it where you can grasp it, and if you don't get it after this, I sincerely give up.

That situation doesn't mean that you're going to end up in jail. It puts you in a position where you are more likely to go to jail. In other words, if you place a group of 100 people in that position, and you place 100 in a favorable position to succeed, which group do you think will have more people in jail?

They all had choices, and they all were told that college was the better way to go, but the group in the projects with undoubtbly show a much higher rate of incarceration. Just like in the study you posted.

That's not to say that they shouldn't be incarcerated if they commit a crime, but it does provide an understanding as to what is happening on a sociological level.

In other words, if you understand what is happening and what causes large groups of black americans to go down this path, you can start to solve and stop it.

But if we all just sit back and say they have choices, and that is the only thing we do about it, do not expect those numbers to change overnight. America has no problem exploiting those same groups. MTV , record labels, and the entertainment industry as a whole has made billions on the commercializing of the ghettos.

Critics everywhere love a movie like 8 mile because it shows that a person can succeed in that situation, but then everyone goes back to ignoring those people once again.

If Eminem is the beacon of hope for your community, that's pretty damn sad.

Slavery, discrimination, and poverty are not free passes for African Americans today. They still have to abide by the same laws as the rest of us. And I never said or even implied otherwise. But what needs to be recognized and tackled, is that as long as these people grow up in the same conditions as they do now, there will be a much higher rate of criminal activity.
You're simply wrong. The barrios and colonias of the valley don't produce, in proportion, the same number of criminals as do the black ghettos.

I contend it is the result of soft bigotry that allowed blacks to take on "victim" status and become wards of the state -- thereby ensuring they perpetuate their dependence on government.

If more blacks would make the conscious decision to break the cycle of dependence, more blacks would leave the ghetto and make something of themselves. Unfortunately, their culture -- including music, family dynamics, and peer pressures -- don't exactly encourage improving their station in life.

It's sad really. But, frankly, I'm getting pretty sick of the black community blaming racism for 100% of their problems.

[MannyIsGod]

You're simply wrong. The barrios and colonias of the valley don't produce, in proportion, the same number of criminals as do the black ghettos.

I contend it is the result of soft bigotry that allowed blacks to take on "victim" status and become wards of the state -- thereby ensuring they perpetuate their dependence on government.



If more blacks would make the conscious decision to break the cycle of dependence, more blacks would leave the ghetto and make something of themselves. Unfortunately, their culture -- including music, family dynamics, and peer pressures -- don't exactly encourage improving their station in life.

It's sad really. But, frankly, I'm getting pretty sick of the black community blaming racism for 100% of their problems.


I'm so angry at what you just wrote I'm not going to respond.

[Clandestino]

You're simply wrong. The barrios and colonias of the valley don't produce, in proportion, the same number of criminals as do the black ghettos.

I contend it is the result of soft bigotry that allowed blacks to take on "victim" status and become wards of the state -- thereby ensuring they perpetuate their dependence on government.

If more blacks would make the conscious decision to break the cycle of dependence, more blacks would leave the ghetto and make something of themselves. Unfortunately, their culture -- including music, family dynamics, and peer pressures -- don't exactly encourage improving their station in life.

It's sad really. But, frankly, I'm getting pretty sick of the black community blaming racism for 100% of their problems.

yes, it is unfortunate, but that seems the case... blames racism for everything. it is easier to make an excuse than to work hard and keep a job.

[Clandestino]

I'm so angry at what you just wrote I'm not going to respond.

that is a response.. :lol

[exstatic]

I'm so angry at what you just wrote I'm not going to respond.

That's why Yoni-bore is on my ignore list. Yes, I figured out his new handle after like two posts.

[dcole50]

glad that adorable racist returned.

[The Ressurrected One]

I'm so angry at what you just wrote I'm not going to respond.
Okay by me.

[mookie2001]

ressurrected one and clandestino why dont yall just get it over with, become friends, and start playing golf, watching foxnews and customizing your suv's together, eat chicken salad, talk about sean hannity, shop at the quarry, whatever people like yall do

[Clandestino]

ressurrected one and clandestino why dont yall just get it over with, become friends, and start playing golf, watching foxnews and customizing your suv's together, eat chicken salad, talk about sean hannity, shop at the quarry, whatever people like yall do

when you stop making excuses i will do all those things...

[The Ressurrected One]

...whatever people like yall do
Post in forums.

[Clandestino]

ressurrected one and clandestino why dont yall just get it over with, become friends, and start playing golf, watching foxnews and customizing your suv's together, eat chicken salad, talk about sean hannity, shop at the quarry, whatever people like yall do

and remind me once again... who is customizing the hell out of their suvs? :lol

[The Ressurrected One]

and remind me once again... who is customizing the hell out of their suvs? :lol
I own a hybrid and a minivan. :)

[Cant_Be_Faded]

C) Endentured Servitude, something my Irish ancestors endured, was every bit as oppressive and punitive as slavery and, in many respects, afforded the servant fewer rights than did slavery. At least, with slavery (as offensive as the prospect of owning another human being is) was somewhat safer in that a "prized" slave [read hard working and productive] was cherished and well-taken care of. There are many stories of slaves befriending their owners after emancipation and staying on as paid help. Endentured servitude on the other hand, generally ended up with the servant wasted and thrown out on the street when the person to whom he was endentured was done with him. Many were murdered (just like slaves) without any justice (just like slaves). Many worked for years without pay (just like slaves) but, unlike slaves, more than not, when their endentured servitude was done -- there was nowhere to turn...America didn't even attempt the type of reconstruction and support -- as ineffectual as it was in many cases -- that was afforded ex-slaves.

Sorry, I think black America needs to buck it up and quit whining...every other "victim" group that has been chewed up and spit out by America over the centuries has, for the most part, moved on and lived life without demanding some kind of reparation for past harm.

It's tiresome...


I hope you really do believe that because it makes me feel smarter.

[The Ressurrected One]

I hope you really do believe that because it makes me feel smarter.
I take it you disagree?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

No, i guess I purposely ignored all the passages about how White People constantly raided Irish settlements and coralled Irish villagers like animals and took them to the edge of the known world against their will under indescribably disgusting conditions

[The Ressurrected One]

No, i guess I purposely ignored all the passages about how White People constantly raided Irish settlements and coralled Irish villagers like animals and took them to the edge of the known world against their will under indescribably disgusting conditions
I guess you did. Read more.

[desflood]

No, i guess I purposely ignored all the passages about how White People constantly raided Irish settlements and coralled Irish villagers like animals and took them to the edge of the known world against their will under indescribably disgusting conditions
Tribal leaders and kings in Africa sold their own people into slavery. Whites were not all to blame, at least not in the beginning.

[Useruser666]

You got to know when to hold ’em, know when to fold ’em,
Know when to walk away and know when to run.
You never count your money when you’re sittin’ at the table.
There’ll be time enough for countin’ when the dealin’s done.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

actually desflood, that's not really true, the African tribes were usually forced to cooperate with the slave trade because tribes that didn't were wiped out by the slave trading of tribes that did. Many of the west African tribal conflicts that we see today actually originate in that time period. Also, African slavery was a diffrent institution than American slavery, it was indentured servitude, where slavery was not passed on to spouses nor children and a slave could work his/her way out of debt. Which BTW, is how most slaves became slaves in Africa pre- European slave trade, they were in debt to someone and forced to become slaves.

[desflood]

Very interesting...

[Clandestino]

Even after Europeans began importing black slaves to America, most trade was just that: "trade". In most instances, the Europeans did not need to use any force to get those slaves. The slaves were "sold" more or less legally by their (black) owners.

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/slavetra.html

[Cant_Be_Faded]

we're not focusing on blame clandestino

the fact remains that the blacks who were rounded up in africa and shipped to america had it worse than IRISH endentured servants

to say otherwise is tantamount to saying someone who is shot in the face is in no worse condition than someone shot in the foot

[Clandestino]

my point is that you have to stop making excuses at one time or another. many mexicans lived in segregation in the 1950s as well... but you don't see the same percentage of them in jail/prison..

[Guru of Nothing]

:
Originally Posted by The Ressurrected One

You're simply wrong. The barrios and colonias of the valley don't produce, in proportion, the same number of criminals as do the black ghettos.

I contend it is the result of soft bigotry that allowed blacks to take on "victim" status and become wards of the state -- thereby ensuring they perpetuate their dependence on government.







If more blacks would make the conscious decision to break the cycle of dependence, more blacks would leave the ghetto and make something of themselves. Unfortunately, their culture -- including music, family dynamics, and peer pressures -- don't exactly encourage improving their station in life.

It's sad really. But, frankly, I'm getting pretty sick of the black community blaming racism for 100% of their problems.





I'm so angry at what you just wrote I'm not going to respond.

Agree or disagree, what Yonivore said is, at the least, plausible. Not that I necessarily agree, but I don't find anything he said nearly so outlandish as defining our freedom by the liberties we grant to NAMBLA. Then again, I spend more time pondering fantasy football than I do social issues.

I do wish you would address the points Yonivore made. There are millions of Yonivores in the world, and most of them vote. If you, and those who share your views do not address his argument head-on and offer persuasive counters, then those millions will continue to cast votes counter to your's and you will remain an angry young Manny.
http://www.boomspeed.com/mateo/popcorn.gif

Personally, I still think you are mistaken in your steadfast desire to work this issue from the top down, because all it will get you is an argument; this is the sort of effort that drives rating wars on cable news channels.

Apparently this topic has special meaning to you, but what i perceive is just a setline in the waters hoping to hook some mea culpas, as though acknowledgement from whitey for past wrongs is prerequisite for fixing black plight (or whatever term is acceptable).

What if Whitey does not step up and say they are sorry? Then what?

Time to go study the results of the NFL draft.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

yes but like your ancestors many mexicans were not subject to what blacks were subject to

you are right, excuses are bad, and i do want to see homicidal maniacs in prison away from society
but your reasoning of "we are all the same now --> we have the same opportunities and choices ----> stop making excuses and go to school" is flawed because it doesnt take into account the specific environments blacks grow up in.

im not saying its ok for blacks to kill people and be criminals because...etc etc

just saying that to ignore the past and pretend that its consequences are not still lingering and affecting many people the second they come into this world is not right.

[Clandestino]

yes but like your ancestors many mexicans were not subject to what blacks were subject to

you are right, excuses are bad, and i do want to see homicidal maniacs in prison away from society
but your reasoning of "we are all the same now --> we have the same opportunities and choices ----> stop making excuses and go to school" is flawed because it doesnt take into account the specific environments blacks grow up in.

im not saying its ok for blacks to kill people and be criminals because...etc etc

just saying that to ignore the past and pretend that its consequences are not still lingering and affecting many people the second they come into this world is not right.

what about the mexican immigrants now that are still picking our country's vegetables???

[jalbre6]

Agree or disagree, what Yonivore said is, at the least, plausible. Not that I necessarily agree, but I don't find anything he said nearly so outlandish as defining our freedom by the liberties we grant to NAMBLA. Then again, I spend more time pondering fantasy football than I do social issues.

I do wish you would address the points Yonivore made. There are millions of Yonivores in the world, and most of them vote. If you, and those who share your views do not address his argument head-on and offer persuasive counters, then those millions will continue to cast votes counter to your's and you will remain an angry young Manny.
http://www.boomspeed.com/mateo/popcorn.gif

Personally, I still think you are mistaken in your steadfast desire to work this issue from the top down, because all it will get you is an argument; this is the sort of effort that drives rating wars on cable news channels.

Apparently this topic has special meaning to you, but what i perceive is just a setline in the waters hoping to hook some mea culpas, as though acknowledgement from whitey for past wrongs is prerequisite for fixing black plight (or whatever term is acceptable).

What if Whitey does not step up and say they are sorry? Then what?

Time to go study the results of the NFL draft.

That was beautifully written. Especially on the point about the Yoni's of the world.

[Useruser666]

http://www.compfused.com/filedl1/26dgikcx/thenewkkk.jpg

[exstatic]

what about the mexican immigrants now that are still picking our country's vegetables???

Are they property of the landowner? No? Then shut the fuck up. They should just go to Harvard and choose not to have to pick vegetables, right?

[Guru of Nothing]

That was beautifully written. Especially on the point about the Yoni's of the world.

Thanks. If only I could spend the entire day working with a beer #3 buzz.

[Clandestino]

Are they property of the landowner? No? Then shut the fuck up. They should just go to Harvard and choose not to have to pick vegetables, right?

are the black people the property of anyone now dumbass? when was the last time they were? fact is, the mexicans are still doing shitty labor jobs and they aren't out being criminals in the numbers the young black adults are...

suck a dick exstatic...

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

So, apparently we should stop arresting people for committing crimes because of their skin color?

Welcome to the democratic party, I guess...

[RobinsontoDuncan]

STFU ahf you're such a dumb ass

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Just playing devil's advocate. Dan whines more about race than Jesse fucking Jackson.

It gets old (like the Spurs offense).

[exstatic]

fact is, the mexicans are still doing shitty labor jobs and they aren't out being criminals in the numbers the young black adults are...
They should just choose to do other jobs, right? Isn't it just about the choices, or is that only for groups you don't like?

While Mexican Americans have not always been treated correctly, they've never been property. Most Mexican Americans also come from intact family units of two parents. If you think that doesn't make a difference, you're wrong.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

So, apparently we should stop arresting people for committing crimes because of their skin color?

Welcome to the democratic party, I guess...


LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!! :lol :lol

dude you are exactly why when i go postal im going to target people with bush stickers first
some people are just flat out retarded

(it's funny cuz if he read the past few posts it had nothing to do with what he said)

[bigzak25]

you guys are voicing viewpoints of the extremes when the answers are in the middle.

at the end of the day?

self responsiblity rules.

don't do the crime if you can't do the time, and NO bitching or blaming afterwards...it's on you.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

you guys are voicing viewpoints of the extremes when the answers are in the middle.

at the end of the day?

self responsiblity rules.

don't do the crime if you can't do the time, and NO bitching or blaming afterwards...it's on you.


at the end of the day if jennifer love hewitt did that titty jigging thing right in front of me i'd do anything but not do her

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Tribal leaders and kings in Africa sold their own people into slavery. Whites were not all to blame, at least not in the beginning.


Whites were not all to blame for slavery.....

KORI!!!!! TIMVP!!!

where are you

this reply alone should be worthy of considering this the first political classic thread of all spurstalk history

[Guru of Nothing]

at the end of the day if jennifer love hewitt did that titty jigging thing right in front of me i'd do anything but not do her

Why, it's Dale Incarnegate.


....nevermind

[Guru of Nothing]

Whites were not all to blame for slavery.....

KORI!!!!! TIMVP!!!

where are you

this reply alone should be worthy of considering this the first political classic thread of all spurstalk history

Smoke, but no fire.

[Clandestino]

They should just choose to do other jobs, right? Isn't it just about the choices, or is that only for groups you don't like?

While Mexican Americans have not always been treated correctly, they've never been property. Most Mexican Americans also come from intact family units of two parents. If you think that doesn't make a difference, you're wrong.

yes, that is their choice.. but they aren't out slinging crack, robbing 7-11s, stealing cars, and all that other shit that gets 13% of young black males in jail... that is the whole point of this thread...

many mexicans and blacks have shitty upbringings and environments, but the mexicans aren't making excuses about their environment...

[Clandestino]

you guys are voicing viewpoints of the extremes when the answers are in the middle.

at the end of the day?

self responsiblity rules.

don't do the crime if you can't do the time, and NO bitching or blaming afterwards...it's on you.

manny, ex, and r2d all blame it on their environment! haha.. they have no choice but to rob, rape, and whatever else...

[Jekka]

Tribal leaders and kings in Africa sold their own people into slavery. Whites were not all to blame, at least not in the beginning.

That's bullshit. Coastal tribes went to the interior to kidnap other tribespeople who they didn't see as "their own people" (I hate that in America an African is an African is an Africa) to sell to the whites and Arabs that sailed in to buy them. The slave trade existed within Africa before whites got there, yes, and there is a substantial number of Africans who were kept enslaved on their home continent, but the fact of the matter is that whites weren't buying slaves just because the coastal tribes were throwing people at them. Coastal tribes found a market with whites and found that if they sold other people into slavery then their own tribes wouldn't be kidnapped and sent to the Caribbean to die in the salt mines and on sugar plantations where historical documents note slave owners as saying that it was more cost efficient to buy and work an adult slave to death than to keep them healthy enough to reproduce.

Whites are to blame for what the slave trade became - it doesn't matter who started it here, it matters who perpetuated it and profitted off it. Slavery existed waaaaaaaay before the Atlantic Triangle was even known to have existed. You can't say that the Europeans were given the idea of slavery by Africans - they knew all about it, and they ended up resorting to Africans after they had killed too many Native Americans and European indentured servants, who were both the original slaves in the Americas.

[Clandestino]

That's bullshit. Coastal tribes went to the interior to kidnap other tribespeople who they didn't see as "their own people" (I hate that in America an African is an African is an Africa) to sell to the whites and Arabs that sailed in to buy them. The slave trade existed within Africa before whites got there, yes, and there is a substantial number of Africans who were kept enslaved on their home continent, but the fact of the matter is that whites weren't buying slaves just because the coastal tribes were throwing people at them. Coastal tribes found a market with whites and found that if they sold other people into slavery then their own tribes wouldn't be kidnapped and sent to the Caribbean to die in the salt mines and on sugar plantations where historical documents note slave owners as saying that it was more cost efficient to buy and work an adult slave to death than to keep them healthy enough to reproduce.

Whites are to blame for what the slave trade became - it doesn't matter who started it here, it matters who perpetuated it and profitted off it. Slavery existed waaaaaaaay before the Atlantic Triangle was even known to have existed. You can't say that the Europeans were given the idea of slavery by Africans - they knew all about it, and they ended up resorting to Africans after they had killed too many Native Americans and European indentured servants, who were both the original slaves in the Americas.

so, they still sold them to the whites. the whites weren't about to go into the interior of africa at the time... and they didn't have to.. the africans were more than willing to do it for them.. and profit from it also... money talks in every country... why can't you guys understand that.

anyway, the black community today needs to stop making excuses and get with the program...

[Jekka]

so, they still sold them to the whites. the whites weren't about to go into the interior of africa at the time... and they didn't have to.. the africans were more than willing to do it for them.. and profit from it also... money talks in every country... why can't you guys understand that.

anyway, the black community today needs to stop making excuses and get with the program...

The whites couldn't go far into Africa at the time, it was a death trap. Many tried - and in fact, slave traders didn't have a long life expectancy at all because they still had to go to Africa to get the slaves. Why did they do it? Because there was a demand and a market and they could make a living and build a life for themselves - as if a hungry African tribe couldn't see the money to be made here and wouldn't be willing to sell a few people they didn't know. Do you think that the volume of slaves traded over the course of the Atlantic Slave Trade would have been nearly as much had there been no white interest? There wouldn't even have been an Atlantic Slave Trade if that had been the case. Whites also had guns, something that most Africans did not have then (not until the whites gave guns to them so that they could fight each other while the whites took over the land and drew political borders that would keep them fighting for centuries to come) which could be used to coerce someone into doing something they didn't really want to do.

Whites were willing to go to the coast, and it was a decision by coastal tribes largely to either kidnap or be kidnapped. Since you're all about choices it seems, which would you have chosen? Have your family separated and taken aboard those ships were a promise of survival was shaky at best only to arrive in a land where they'd be worked to death, or sell someone else and make enough money to feed your family for a while?

You act like the choices presented in this thread should be so easy for people to make, Clandestino. They're not - especially when you aren't getting support to do the better thing.

[travis2]

Oh really?

OK, so what would you suggest?

[JoeChalupa]

Just do the right thing.

[travis2]

Just do the right thing.

But we've just been told we can't expect that.

[JoeChalupa]

I demand it.

[travis2]

You've been told you can't.

[Useruser666]

Can't we all just get along.

[Clandestino]

The whites couldn't go far into Africa at the time, it was a death trap. Many tried - and in fact, slave traders didn't have a long life expectancy at all because they still had to go to Africa to get the slaves. Why did they do it? Because there was a demand and a market and they could make a living and build a life for themselves - as if a hungry African tribe couldn't see the money to be made here and wouldn't be willing to sell a few people they didn't know. Do you think that the volume of slaves traded over the course of the Atlantic Slave Trade would have been nearly as much had there been no white interest? There wouldn't even have been an Atlantic Slave Trade if that had been the case. Whites also had guns, something that most Africans did not have then (not until the whites gave guns to them so that they could fight each other while the whites took over the land and drew political borders that would keep them fighting for centuries to come) which could be used to coerce someone into doing something they didn't really want to do.

Whites were willing to go to the coast, and it was a decision by coastal tribes largely to either kidnap or be kidnapped. Since you're all about choices it seems, which would you have chosen? Have your family separated and taken aboard those ships were a promise of survival was shaky at best only to arrive in a land where they'd be worked to death, or sell someone else and make enough money to feed your family for a while?

You act like the choices presented in this thread should be so easy for people to make, Clandestino. They're not - especially when you aren't getting support to do the better thing.

the coastal tribes didn't like the ones from the interior... they were more than happy to make money off them by selling them...

[MannyIsGod]

Agree or disagree, what Yonivore said is, at the least, plausible. Not that I necessarily agree, but I don't find anything he said nearly so outlandish as defining our freedom by the liberties we grant to NAMBLA. Then again, I spend more time pondering fantasy football than I do social issues.

NAMBLA is entitled to the same freedom any other organization is entitled to. I don't see how the equal application of the law is as outlandish as the downight defensive arrogance that comes from Yonivore in this thread. He's pissed about racism being blamed? HA! Poor Yoni.



I do wish you would address the points Yonivore made. There are millions of Yonivores in the world, and most of them vote. If you, and those who share your views do not address his argument head-on and offer persuasive counters, then those millions will continue to cast votes counter to your's and you will remain an angry young Manny.

http://www.boomspeed.com/mateo/popcorn.gif

I had an entire reply typed out yesterday, and I deleted it before I could finish because the more I wrote, the angier I got. It gets too frustrating in this forum at times. Look at what AHF came in and posted. No one even brought up not holding people accountable for their actions, and no one is saying that slavery/racism/discrimination should give anyone a free pass to commit crimes. I've even said as much in a post.

But yet the debate still comes back to that. I'm tired of sounding like a broken record; and one that no one seems to understand at that.



Personally, I still think you are mistaken in your steadfast desire to work this issue from the top down, because all it will get you is an argument; this is the sort of effort that drives rating wars on cable news channels.

Read what is being said in this thread. How do they percieve to solve the situation Matt? By expecting African Americans to make better choices. No one here advocates shit except sitting back and waiting for them to make smarter choices.

It would be one thing if they were consistent across the board, but this shit only flies when it's convienent to them. Ask them to wait for Iraq, North Korea, or Iran to make better choices. Ask them to wait for people to make better choices when it comes to Canadian drugs. Ask them to wait for people to make better choices on what they want on TV.

If we're going to live in a libertarian paradise where personal responsibility is held in high regard, you won't find an arguement from me. But thats not what this is.

Communism for the rich. Capitalism for the poor.

African Americans will eventualy right the ship on their own. I have no doubt about that. But unless there is outside assistance to help the communties (and I've said before what I've thought about the current "welfare" programs in place, thats not what works best) it is going to take longer. MUCH longer.



Apparently this topic has special meaning to you, but what i perceive is just a setline in the waters hoping to hook some mea culpas, as though acknowledgement from whitey for past wrongs is prerequisite for fixing black plight (or whatever term is acceptable).

What if Whitey does not step up and say they are sorry? Then what?

Time to go study the results of the NFL draft.
Then maybe some shit actualy gets done to help them out. I don't need an apology, and I don't think they do either. They need help. Look in this thread, do you think they are anywhere near getting it?

Personal Responsibility. Right.

[Clandestino]

welfare, welfare, welfare... take away money from those that have worked for it and give it to the excuse makers...

[MannyIsGod]

the coastal tribes didn't like the ones from the interior... they were more than happy to make money off them by selling them...
Regardless of who sold the slaves the fact is that Americans are the ones that kept them and their descendents in an oppressed situation. There is responsibilty here; you need not look across the Atlantic.

It's so ironic (or is hypocritical the word?) that you guys are arguing over who gets the blame for slavery while trumpeting smarter choices and personal responsibility.

[Clandestino]

Regardless of who sold the slaves the fact is that Americans are the ones that kept them and their descendents in an oppressed situation. There is responsibilty here; you need not look across the Atlantic.

It's so ironic (or is hypocritical the word?) that you guys are arguing over who gets the blame for slavery while trumpeting smarter choices and personal responsibility.

if they were never sold to the whites then there probably wouldn't have been the large numbers of slaves that there were...

[MannyIsGod]

Not today buddy, not today.

[travis2]

I asked Jekka, but I'll ask you too, since I haven't seen anything.

What do you suggest?

[Jekka]

if they were never sold to the whites then there probably wouldn't have been the large numbers of slaves that there were...

That's what I said, genius.


the coastal tribes didn't like the ones from the interior... they were more than happy to make money off them by selling them...

They didn't know or care about most of the tribes in the interior - a good portion of slaves sold were from tribes that were peaceful and unable to defend themselves against traders - there are many historical documents to back me up, here - try reading Olaudah Equiano and some actual texts and then get back to me.


Oh really?

OK, so what would you suggest?
I think we at least need to admit we did something wrong. This country has a problem with doing that, because saying, "I'm sorry" implies that you are then obligated to change and make reparations. I'm not saying to then throw money to African Americans, but I think an apology and a more even playing field is owed to them. How about funding the schools in predominantly minority neighborhoods better so they have more of a chance at higher education and look at it as a more achievable goal.

[Clandestino]

That's what I said, genius. so, then you agree.. it is the black man's fault he sold them to us in the first place...


They didn't know or care about most of the tribes in the interior - a good portion of slaves sold were from tribes that were peaceful and unable to defend themselves against traders - there are many historical documents to back me up, here - try reading Olaudah Equiano and some actual texts and then get back to me.

I think we at least need to admit we did something wrong. This country has a problem with doing that, because saying, "I'm sorry" implies that you are then obligated to change and make reparations. I'm not saying to then throw money to African Americans, but I think an apology and a more even playing field is owed to them. How about funding the schools in predominantly minority neighborhoods better so they have more of a chance at higher education and look at it as a more achievable goal.

i have taken courses on this shit already. saying sorry is not going to do anything for the black men now.. they could care less. it is not going to make them want to get a job instead of living a life of crime.

does not everyone have a chance to succeed in life now? everyone does... that is why immigrants from all over the world risk their lives trying come to the united states... maybe the black male community aged 20-30 is the only group that doesn't realize it...

[Clandestino]

i swear, some of the people here think the united states should be a socialist nation. manny, a socialist will never get a job with nsa...

[Clandestino]

after reading this thread, i've finally seen the light

black people = bad
mexican people = bad, but hardworking
white people = good, but with some flaws

aww i feel so much lighter
then you need to learn to read.

[travis2]

I think we at least need to admit we did something wrong. This country has a problem with doing that, because saying, "I'm sorry" implies that you are then obligated to change and make reparations. I'm not saying to then throw money to African Americans, but I think an apology and a more even playing field is owed to them. How about funding the schools in predominantly minority neighborhoods better so they have more of a chance at higher education and look at it as a more achievable goal.

First of all, I haven't done anything wrong. The (white) color of my skin does not indict me anymore than (black) skin or the (brown) skin of anyone else (including, BTW, my children).

The slave owners are dead. Civil rights are a reality. Oh, sure, there are some holdovers to hatred around out there. There always will be. If we are waiting for there to be 100% peace and love then nothing will ever get done.

"A more even playing field is owed to them". Please elaborate what you mean. I'm not being sarcastic; this is an overly broad statement that could mean anything.

"[F]unding the schools in predominantly minority neighborhoods better"...again...elaborate, please.

[MannyIsGod]

i swear, some of the people here think the united states should be a socialist nation. manny, a socialist will never get a job with nsa...
Not that I'm a socialist in the manner that you're thinking, but I'm not going to change or hide my way of thinking for any job.

[Clandestino]

Not that I'm a socialist in the manner that you're thinking, but I'm not going to change or hide my way of thinking for any job.

that was a little joke...

[Clandestino]

First of all, I haven't done anything wrong. The (white) color of my skin does not indict me anymore than (black) skin or the (brown) skin of anyone else (including, BTW, my children).

The slave owners are dead. Civil rights are a reality. Oh, sure, there are some holdovers to hatred around out there. There always will be. If we are waiting for there to be 100% peace and love then nothing will ever get done.

"A more even playing field is owed to them". Please elaborate what you mean. I'm not being sarcastic; this is an overly broad statement that could mean anything.

"[F]unding the schools in predominantly minority neighborhoods better"...again...elaborate, please.

exactly, i didnt do anything wrong.. why should i have to pay for it..

[MannyIsGod]

Travis, I've given detailed explanations on it before, I'm just not in the mood today. If you go back to the thread that was about Bill Cosby, there's a post in there where I lay it all out.


First of all, I haven't done anything wrong. The (white) color of my skin does not indict me anymore than (black) skin or the (brown) skin of anyone else (including, BTW, my children).
.
Maybe not, but most of white America has benefited from it indirectly. The money that was made and the opportunties weren't all given back to the African American community at the wave of a magic civil rights wand. That money stayed with the families that got it off the backs of African Americans and was used to help those families.

[Spurminator]

How about funding the schools in predominantly minority neighborhoods better so they have more of a chance at higher education and look at it as a more achievable goal.

That's only part of it.

The student culture of inner city schools is such that you are frowned upon for succeeding educationally. You can poor money into school libraries, but that doesn't mean reading will be any cooler. You can raise the teachers' salaries, but that doesn't mean the kids are going to respect them more. You can fund facilities for extra-curricular activities, but that's not going to make more kids stay after school for Junior Achievement programs.

Change has to begin with parenting and with leadership. America's historical treatment of blacks sucks. It's horrible. But their status as victims is perpetuated by a leadership who is always looking for someone to blame for current problems, and a political party with votes to gain by stirring resentment.

[travis2]

That's only part of it.

The student culture of inner city schools is such that you are frowned upon for succeeding educationally. You can poor money into school libraries, but that doesn't mean reading will be any cooler. You can raise the teachers' salaries, but that doesn't mean the kids are going to respect them more. You can fund facilities for extra-curricular activities, but that's not going to make more kids stay after school for Junior Achievement programs.

Change has to begin with parenting and with leadership. America's historical treatment of blacks sucks. It's horrible. But their status as victims is perpetuated by a leadership who is always looking for someone to blame for current problems, and a political party with votes to gain by stirring resentment.

What he said!

[travis2]

Travis, I've given detailed explanations on it before, I'm just not in the mood today. If you go back to the thread that was about Bill Cosby, there's a post in there where I lay it all out.


Maybe not, but most of white America has benefited from it indirectly. The money that was made and the opportunties weren't all given back to the African American community at the wave of a magic civil rights wand. That money stayed with the families that got it off the backs of African Americans and was used to help those families.

Sounds to me like you're still looking for reparations. That's not an accusation, but it's very easy to come to that conclusion reading what you've written.

[The Ressurrected One]

Are they property of the landowner? No? Then shut the fuck up. They should just go to Harvard and choose not to have to pick vegetables, right?
Are there still slaves out there in America? Why don't the whiny blacks just go to Harvard and choose not to live in ghettos?

Every generation is a reset. Just because your ancestors endured slavery doesn't mean it should affect your current circumstance. We have immigrants from every corner of the world, and indentured servitude aside, some of those immigrants have suffered as much or more than African slaves of the 19th century. But nobody, and I mean nobody has made a freakin' living like the blacks have over victim status...

The Vietnamese, Koreans, Japanese, Cambodians, and Chinese are the most recent escapees of intolerable oppression. Yet, they've managed to assimilate and build successful lives (for the most part) in America.

Blacks just need to shut the freak up and get on with life...quit blaming the man and whitey for the fact you don't know how to raise children to be productive members of society.

[MannyIsGod]

Sounds to me like you're still looking for reparations. That's not an accusation, but it's very easy to come to that conclusion reading what you've written.
You could qualify them as reperations of a sort, but I'm not talking about sending every registered African American a 50 dollar check. I'm talking about infrastructure.

In any case, I don't expect it to happen. The "discussion" in here was mainly over whether or not slavery still has visible effects today. I think it's pretty obvious it does, but apparently I'm one of the few.

[MannyIsGod]

Blacks just need to shut the freak up and get on with life...quit blaming the man and whitey for the fact you don't know how to raise children to be productive members of society.

You're right Matt. This type of shit is entirely worth responding to.

No, I think I'm done once again in this thread.

[The Ressurrected One]

While Mexican Americans have not always been treated correctly, they've never been property.
Name one black person, alive today, who has been the property of another.

Most Mexican Americans also come from intact family units of two parents.
And that has exactly what to do with slavery?

If you think that doesn't make a difference, you're wrong.
It makes a big difference but, just why are black families so fractured?

[Clandestino]

Are there still slaves out there in America? Why don't the whiny blacks just go to Harvard and choose not to live in ghettos?

Every generation is a reset. Just because your ancestors endured slavery doesn't mean it should affect your current circumstance. We have immigrants from every corner of the world, and indentured servitude aside, some of those immigrants have suffered as much or more than African slaves of the 19th century. But nobody, and I mean nobody has made a freakin' living like the blacks have over victim status...

The Vietnamese, Koreans, Japanese, Cambodians, and Chinese are the most recent escapees of intolerable oppression. Yet, they've managed to assimilate and build successful lives (for the most part) in America.

Blacks just need to shut the freak up and get on with life...quit blaming the man and whitey for the fact you don't know how to raise children to be productive members of society.

exactly!

[The Ressurrected One]

Regardless of who sold the slaves the fact is that Americans are the ones that kept them and their descendents in an oppressed situation. There is responsibilty here; you need not look across the Atlantic.
And America lived up to that responsibility by abolishing slavery and working towards the end of racial discrimination and giving all people access to, and rights under, the same U.S. Constitution. What more do you want? Why should White (or non-black) America still be making reparations, excuses, and apologies for a wrong they had absolutely nothing to do with; and, to a people (Blacks), less than 15% of whom, are even remotely related to anyone who was ever an American slave, and among whom 0% were ever slaves?

In fact, there are more African immigrants in this country now, that came from countries where slavery is practiced by black Africans -- more recently than did America and, in fact, some currently -- than there are Black Americans that are the descendants of anyone remotely affected by the American slave trade.

Hey, here's a trivia question for you.

What did freed slaves do when taken back to Africa, given assistance in setting up their own government and given a country, Liberia?

That's right, enslaved people...

And, just because a person was forcibly removed from Africa, put on a slave ship, and brought to America to be sold as a slave doesn't mean they were treated worse than indentured servants.

Some estimates place the percentage of murdered indentured servants at 50%. They were similarly taken into bondage in lieu of a debt owed by themselves or family, put on ships and forced to work to repay that debt. Many were killed and punished more harshly than slaves.

In fact, if you'd read your history a little more, you'd realize that indentured servitude was the pre-cursor to slavery in American and, it wasn't until "masters" had killed most of the servants or ran them off by their oppressive punishments that American business began looking for an alternative -- slavery.

Slave were considered property and cared for as such. Indentured servants were considered expendable commodities and, similarly treated.

Indentured servitude wasn't any different than being owned. But, that argument aside, slaves (until the abolitionist movement gained steam) were, for the most part, well treated because crippled, sick, and timid slaves were of little use.

I will concede that slavery, as a practice, is much, much, much less palatable than indentured servitude because it involves actually seeing another human being as something less than human. However, the results of the two practices were not that different and, in the case of indentured servitude -- which, by the way, lasted much longer in America (and in some cases still exists), than did slavery -- the ill-treatment of servants was incessant from the beginning to the end.

Indentured servants who escaped were tracked down and killed just like slaves. And, just like the murderers of slaves, those that killed indentured servants went largely unpunished.

Sorry, blacks today -- all of which never suffered under slavery and the vast majority of whom do not descend from slaves but, instead, probably descend from slave holders in other countries -- need to shut up and quit expecting American to continue the pity party.

[Jekka]

First of all, I haven't done anything wrong. The (white) color of my skin does not indict me anymore than (black) skin or the (brown) skin of anyone else (including, BTW, my children).

The slave owners are dead. Civil rights are a reality. Oh, sure, there are some holdovers to hatred around out there. There always will be. If we are waiting for there to be 100% peace and love then nothing will ever get done.

"A more even playing field is owed to them". Please elaborate what you mean. I'm not being sarcastic; this is an overly broad statement that could mean anything.

"[F]unding the schools in predominantly minority neighborhoods better"...again...elaborate, please.

If you're willing to look at black people as one people - as is being generalized in this thread, then you need to be willing to look at whites as one people as well - and as people oppressing people, the "white man" is sitting with the power. If African Americans are still bitter about the fact that this government has never so much as apologized for what they allowed - which I think is valid - then what's the harm in at least making the effort to make an honest apology - to move a step in the direction of righting what was wrong.

As for a more even playing field, I think that school funding goes a long way into that - giving poor neighborhoods better educational funding to build a solid foundation, to make them want to stay in school and go on to higher education, and maybe it will be more apparent then that continuing education is more lucrative in the long run - in which case it will be easier to encourage and afford for their children to go to college, too. As a whole, they are so far below the privileged hegemony that it's going to be really difficult to get out of the hole without a hand from someone on the surface.

I personally think that funds could be reallocated from other programs to do this, although with the current administration I don't see that happening, considering they've already killed so many programs that aren't defense related.


so, then you agree.. it is the black man's fault he sold them to us in the first place...

Why yes, that's exactly what I said. Thank you for that accurate interpretation. I feel so much better now that you really seem to be willing and able to understand my point of view without your own getting in the way. Whew.


i have taken courses on this shit already. saying sorry is not going to do anything for the black men now.. they could care less. it is not going to make them want to get a job instead of living a life of crime.

does not everyone have a chance to succeed in life now? everyone does... that is why immigrants from all over the world risk their lives trying come to the united states... maybe the black male community aged 20-30 is the only group that doesn't realize it...

I've taken courses on it, too - several in American Studies, US history and African history. Saying sorry won't make everything okay, but it should at least be said. Maybe the black male community aged 20-30 needs some support (before you jump on me, NOT just financially) from Americans that do nothing but pin blame on them. Yes, everyone does in theory have the opportunity to succeed here, but if you're starting at the bottom its almost impossible to do it alone.

[Jekka]

Why should White (or non-black) America still be making reparations, excuses, and apologies for a wrong they had absolutely nothing to do with; and, to a people (Blacks), less than 15% of whom, are even remotely related to anyone who was ever an American slave, and among whom 0% were ever slaves?

In fact, there are more African immigrants in this country now, that came from countries where slavery is practiced by black Africans -- more recently than did America and, in fact, some currently -- than there are Black Americans that are the descendants of anyone remotely affected by the American slave trade.

I'd like to see your source for that information.

[Guru of Nothing]

If African Americans are still bitter about the fact that this government has never so much as apologized for what they allowed - which I think is valid - then what's the harm in at least making the effort to make an honest apology - to move a step in the direction of righting what was wrong.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but it's a safe bet that you won't see an apology or acknowledgement on this matter which satisfies you, and as time marches on, the likelihood will further diminish.

[Jekka]

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but it's a safe bet that you won't see an apology or acknowledgement on this matter which satisfies you, and as time marches on, the likelihood will further diminish.

The more history you study along with current political situations the more jaded you get - I know that the likelihood of an apology is depressingly slim. By the same token though, if you let it go, then there's no chance of it ever happening.

[Clandestino]

bottom line is: is a 13 item questionnaire developed by Rotter (1966). It measures generalized expectancies for internal versus external control of reinforcement. People with an [b]internal locus of control believe that their own actions determine the rewards that they obtain, while those with an external locus of control believe that their own behavior doesn't matter much and that rewards in life are generally outside of their control. Scores range from 0 to 13. A low score indicates an internal control while a high score indicates external control.

take the test to see which one you are.

http://www.psych.uncc.edu/pagoolka/LocusofControl-intro.html

[desflood]

I'm going to play devil's advocate (so what else is new). Explain to me why a group of people (today's government) should apologise now for something that officially ended 140 years ago and which they had nothing to do with? I'm not opposed to an apology, by the way. The best answer anybody can give me to this question is, "Well, they just should."

[MannyIsGod]

Because they still reap the direct benefits from the action, thats why.

[Clandestino]

My internal locus of control score- 4

[desflood]

Because they still reap the direct benefits from the action, thats why.
Don't you also, by living here?

[MannyIsGod]

Don't you also, by living here?
Uh, no? I can not see a direct way on how I benefit from what happend considering my family immigrated here during the civil rights movement. I am not a member of a family who's fortune was made on the backs of blacks. Nor am I a member of a family who's race gave them an advantage over blacks. Actually, I am a descendent of freed slaves, so you know, I don't think so.

However, even if I did, the government represents me just as much as anyone else, and an apology from my government would be an apology from me.

[Guru of Nothing]

What I see here are demands and accusations lacking persuasion, met with a resounding no (rinse, repeat).

[MannyIsGod]

What I see here are demands and accusations lacking persuasion, met with a resounding no (rinse, repeat).Well, it's an internet forum. This isn't a burning issue that is on the forefront and actualy has a chance to make an impact. It's beyond that, and I really have very little hope for it ever to change.

African Americans will pull themselves up by their bootstraps, eventually. And when it happens, people like Clandestino and Yoni will claim they were right while missing the entirety of the point that was made.

Anyone remember when Yoni called me antisemetic? :spin :spin :spin :drunk

[Clandestino]

Well, it's an internet forum. This isn't a burning issue that is on the forefront and actualy has a chance to make an impact. It's beyond that, and I really have very little hope for it ever to change.

African Americans will pull themselves up by their bootstraps, eventually. And when it happens, people like Clandestino and Yoni will claim they were right while missing the entirety of the point that was made.

That is all we ask for... People to pull themselves up!

[desflood]

Uh, no? I can not see a direct way on how I benefit from what happend considering my family immigrated here during the civil rights movement. I am not a member of a family who's fortune was made on the backs of blacks. Nor am I a member of a family who's race gave them an advantage over blacks. Actually, I am a descendent of freed slaves, so you know, I don't think so.

However, even if I did, the government represents me just as much as anyone else, and an apology from my government would be an apology from me.
This country is what it is because of its history. Of course, you don't believe that with a different history it would be exactly the same as it is now. So, by living in this country with almost all of the freedoms you could possibly ask for, you're not benefitting from its history like all of us bad white people?

[desflood]

And no, you never said white people are bad. But you are coming through that way to some.

[exstatic]

I'd like to see your source for that information.

Unlike his posts, which are mostly stolen or plagerized material, he probably actually did something creative here: he made them up.

[MannyIsGod]

This country is what it is because of its history. Of course, you don't believe that with a different history it would be exactly the same as it is now. So, by living in this country with almost all of the freedoms you could possibly ask for, you're not benefitting from its history like all of us bad white people?
:lmao !!!

#1 The US grants me no freedoms. Those freedoms are mine. I need not ask anyone for them.
#2 The US DOES take away freedoms that are mine and does not let me use them.
#3 The history of the United States is one which has quite possibly hurt me more than it could have helped me. I'm not really sure which way it swings, but I've love for you to explain to me how I'm benefiting from it.

[MannyIsGod]

And no, you never said white people are bad. But you are coming through that way to some.
At this point Des, I couldn't care less. I date a cracka. My best friend is a damn whitey. I'm not going to change my beliefs in order to make myself seem more anglo friendly.

[MannyIsGod]

BTW, and I will say this, historicly, white people have been VERY VERY bad.

[desflood]

:lmao !!!

#1 The US grants me no freedoms. Those freedoms are mine. I need not ask anyone for them.
#2 The US DOES take away freedoms that are mine and does not let me use them.
#3 The history of the United States is one which has quite possibly hurt me more than it could have helped me. I'm not really sure which way it swings, but I've love for you to explain to me how I'm benefiting from it.
So then, out of curiousity, why do you choose to live in a place that has hurt you more than it has helped you?

[MannyIsGod]

#3 The history of the United States is one which has quite possibly hurt me more than it could have helped me. I'm not really sure which way it swings, but I've love for you to explain to me how I'm benefiting from it.

[desflood]

BTW, and I will say this, historicly, white people have been VERY VERY bad.
Historically, individually, black people have been bad to me. I'm not asking for an apology from the entire race, and I hold the race no ill will.

[MannyIsGod]

So then, out of curiousity, why do you choose to live in a place that has hurt you more than it has helped you?
Maybe I want to help change it Des? Maybe I don't plan on living here forever?

Who knows, but ask Clandestion for the link to my life story, I'm sure youll find the answer somewhere in there.

I have a question for you, however.

Do you believe the United States is the best place in the world to live?

[desflood]

Maybe I want to help change it Des? Maybe I don't plan on living here forever?

Who knows, but ask Clandestion for the link to my life story, I'm sure youll find the answer somewhere in there.

I have a question for you, however.

Do you believe the United States is the best place in the world to live?
I believe the best place to live in would be an unsettled country with no government and very few other people to deal with! :lol

[The Ressurrected One]

Anyone remember when Yoni called me antisemetic? :spin :spin :spin :drunk
No.

[exstatic]

I believe the best place to live in would be an unsettled country with no government and very few other people to deal with!

That pretty much describes North America, pre-crackah landings. ;)

[MannyIsGod]

Historically, individually, black people have been bad to me. I'm not asking for an apology from the entire race, and I hold the race no ill will.
Comparing the acts of individuals to the acts of entire cultures is beyond comparing apples to oranges.

[MannyIsGod]

I believe the best place to live in would be an unsettled country with no government and very few other people to deal with! :lol
A fucking men!!!!!

[The Ressurrected One]

BTW, and I will say this, historicly, white people have been VERY VERY bad.
So have black people...

[Guru of Nothing]

A fucking men!!!!!

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

[desflood]

Comparing the acts of individuals to the acts of entire cultures is beyond comparing apples to oranges.
Don't you think there are different kinds of white people, like different kinds of hispanics? Don't lump all whites into one culture. We came from different countries, not all owned slaves you know.

[MannyIsGod]

Don't you think there are different kinds of white people, like different kinds of hispanics? Don't lump all whites into one culture. We came from different countries, not all owned slaves you know.
Des, I'm not saying that all white people are the same, but comparing the acts of a culture to the acts of individuals is never going to work.

Example:

Comparing the acts of Nazi genocide to the act of a murderer who is Jewish.

[The Ressurrected One]

Ten reasons the pro-reparations crowd needs to STFU.

1. There Is No Single Group Clearly Responsible For The Crime Of Slavery

Black Africans and Arabs were responsible for enslaving the ancestors of African-Americans. There were 3,000 black slave-owners in the ante-bellum United States. Are reparations to be paid by their descendants too?

2. There Is No One Group That Benefited Exclusively From Its Fruits

The claim for reparations is premised on the false assumption that only whites have benefited from slavery. If slave labor created wealth for Americans, then obviously it has created wealth for black Americans as well, including the descendants of slaves. The GNP of black America is so large that it makes the African-American community the 10th most prosperous "nation" in the world. American blacks on average enjoy per capita incomes in the range of twenty to fifty times that of blacks living in any of the African nations from which they were kidnapped.

3. Only A Tiny Minority Of White Americans Ever Owned Slaves, And Others Gave Their Lives To Free Them

Only a tiny minority of Americans ever owned slaves. This is true even for those who lived in the ante-bellum South where only one white in five was a slaveholder. Why should their descendants owe a debt? What about the descendants of the 350,000 Union soldiers who died to free the slaves? They gave their lives. What possible moral principle would ask them to pay (through their descendants) again?

4. America Today Is A Multi-Ethnic Nation and Most Americans Have No Connection (Direct Or Indirect) To Slavery

The two great waves of American immigration occurred after 1880 and then after 1960. What rationale would require Vietnamese boat people, Russian refuseniks, Iranian refugees, and Armenian victims of the Turkish persecution, Jews, Mexicans Greeks, or Polish, Hungarian, Cambodian and Korean victims of Communism, to pay reparations to American blacks?

5. The Historical Precedents Used To Justify The Reparations Claim Do Not Apply, And The Claim Itself Is Based On Race Not Injury

The historical precedents generally invoked to justify the reparations claim are payments to Jewish survivors of the Holocaust, Japanese-Americans and African- American victims of racial experiments in Tuskegee, or racial outrages in Rosewood and Oklahoma City. But in each case, the recipients of reparations were the direct victims of the injustice or their immediate families. This would be the only case of reparations to people who were not immediately affected and whose sole qualification to receive reparations would be racial. As has already been pointed out, during the slavery era, many blacks were free men or slave-owners themselves, yet the reparations claimants make no distinction between the roles blacks actually played in the injustice itself. Randall Robinson's book on reparations, The Debt, which is the manifesto of the reparations movement is pointedly sub-titled "What America Owes To Blacks." If this is not racism, what is?

6. The Reparations Argument Is Based On The Unfounded Claim That All African-American Descendants of Slaves Suffer From The Economic Consequences Of Slavery And Discrimination

No evidence-based attempt has been made to prove that living individuals have been adversely affected by a slave system that was ended over 150 years ago. But there is plenty of evidence the hardships that occurred were hardships that individuals could and did overcome. The black middle-class in America is a prosperous community that is now larger in absolute terms than the black underclass. Does its existence not suggest that economic adversity is the result of failures of individual character rather than the lingering after-effects of racial discrimination and a slave system that ceased to exist well over a century ago? West Indian blacks in America are also descended from slaves but their average incomes are equivalent to the average incomes of whites (and nearly 25% higher than the average incomes of American born blacks). How is it that slavery adversely affected one large group of descendants but not the other? How can government be expected to decide an issue that is so subjective - and yet so critical - to the case?

7. The Reparations Claim Is One More Attempt To Turn African-Americans Into Victims. It Sends A Damaging Message To The African-American Community.

The renewed sense of grievance -- which is what the claim for reparations will inevitably create -- is neither a constructive nor a helpful message for black leaders to be sending to their communities and to others. To focus the social passions of African-Americans on what some Americans may have done to their ancestors fifty or a hundred and fifty years ago is to burden them with a crippling sense of victim-hood. How are the millions of refugees from tyranny and genocide who are now living in America going to receive these claims, moreover, except as demands for special treatment, an extravagant new handout that is only necessary because some blacks can't seem to locate the ladder of opportunity within reach of others -- many less privileged than themselves?

8. Reparations To African Americans Have Already Been Paid

Since the passage of the Civil Rights Acts and the advent of the Great Society in 1965, trillions of dollars in transfer payments have been made to African-Americans in the form of welfare benefits and racial preferences (in contracts, job placements and educational admissions) - all under the rationale of redressing historic racial grievances. It is said that reparations are necessary to achieve a healing between African-Americans and other Americans. If trillion dollar restitutions and a wholesale rewriting of American law (in order to accommodate racial preferences) for African-Americans is not enough to achieve a "healing," what will?

9. What About The Debt Blacks Owe To America?

Slavery existed for thousands of years before the Atlantic slave trade was born, and in all societies. But in the thousand years of its existence, there never was an anti-slavery movement until white Christians - Englishmen and Americans -- created one. If not for the anti-slavery attitudes and military power of white Englishmen and Americans, the slave trade would not have been brought to an end. If not for the sacrifices of white soldiers and a white American president who gave his life to sign the Emancipation Proclamation, blacks in America would still be slaves. If not for the dedication of Americans of all ethnicities and colors to a society based on the principle that all men are created equal, blacks in America would not enjoy the highest standard of living of blacks anywhere in the world, and indeed one of the highest standards of living of any people in the world. They would not enjoy the greatest freedoms and the most thoroughly protected individual rights anywhere. Where is the gratitude of black America and its leaders for those gifts?

10. The Reparations Claim Is A Separatist Idea That Sets African-Americans Against The Nation That Gave Them Freedom

Blacks were here before the Mayflower. Who is more American than the descendants of African slaves? For the African-American community to isolate itself even further from America is to embark on a course whose implications are troubling. Yet the African-American community has had a long-running flirtation with separatists, nationalists and the political left, who want African-Americans to be no part of America's social contract. African Americans should reject this temptation.

For all America's faults, African-Americans have an enormous stake in their country and its heritage. It is this heritage that is really under attack by the reparations movement. The reparations claim is one more assault on America, conducted by racial separatists and the political left. It is an attack not only on white Americans, but on all Americans -- especially African-Americans.

America's African-American citizens are the richest and most privileged black people alive -- a bounty that is a direct result of the heritage that is under assault. The American idea needs the support of its African-American citizens. But African-Americans also need the support of the American idea. For it is this idea that led to the principles and institutions that have set African-Americans - and all of us -- free.

[desflood]

Des, I'm not saying that all white people are the same, but comparing the acts of a culture to the acts of individuals is never going to work.

Example:

Comparing the acts of Nazi genocide to the act of a murderer who is Jewish.
YES! Now you get it! Because a very small percentage of people of European descent actually dealt with the slave trade, you can't make white people in general apoligise for the wrongs that they did.

[MannyIsGod]

YES! Now you get it! Because a very small percentage of people of European descent actually dealt with the slave trade, you can't make white people in general apoligise for the wrongs that they did.
huh????

[The Ressurrected One]

Sending a steady signal of despair


http://www.mediatransparency.org/images/walter_williams_prod.jpg
Washington Times
April 10, 2001
Walter Williams


David Bell, Harvard law professor, counseled, "Black people will never gain full equality in this country." The late columnist Carl Rowan said, "Racism remains a terrible curse on this society, and . . . nothing in sight suggests that that curse will end soon."

Rep. Charles Rangel, New York Democrat, said: "Black men are not the problem. Black men are the victims." Jesse Jackson said: "We are under attack by the courts, legislatures and mass media. We´re despised. Racists attack us for sport to win votes." New York Supreme Court judge Ivan Warner somberly said, "The entire United States is a racist society."

These comments, observations and counsel are just a tiny sample of three decades worth of defeatist poison bestowed on the black community by leftist politicians, civil rights leaders, professors and teachers. Black people are taught that every waking thought of white America is racist; black people are perennial victims of white oppression; we have no control over our lives and destiny. The only way black people can achieve anything is to prey upon white guilt, and seek special privileges like quotas, handouts, and lately reparations and apologies for slavery.

We´re taught that racism is everywhere. If a disproportionate percentage of blacks are on death row, it isn´t because 50 percent of murders committed in America are committed by blacks and almost all the victims are black.

No, the disproportionate percentages are caused by racism in the criminal justice system and slavery´s legacy. When large percentages of black high-school graduates can´t muster even 700 or 800 on the SAT, it isn´t because they haven´t studied hard enough and applied themselves. It´s the result of racism and slavery´s legacy. The strangest feature of this particular claim, and a testament to the power of racists, is that racists are able to wreak the greatest educational havoc in the very cities where the mayor is black, the superintendent of schools is black, and most of the teachers and principals are black.

When it´s noticed that black illegitimacy is 70 percent, and less than 40 percent of black children live in two-parent families, and social pathology reigns supreme, it´s not because of personal irresponsibility. Instead, it´s racism and the legacy of slavery. Nobody bothers to notice that a century ago, when blacks were much closer to slavery, had fewer civil rights and far fewer opportunities, black illegitimacy and family breakdown was a tiny fraction of today´s. The victimization counsel of black and white liberals is debilitating. Think of it this way. Imagine you´re a high-school or college administrator. Your basketball-team coach counsels his players: "You´re going to play a team that´s better than you. No matter how much you practice, no matter how hard you try, you can´t win. The only possible way for you to win is if we can get the scorers and referees to cheat for you." What would you do to that coach? I would say simply firing him would be too kind.

The victimization vision teaches young blacks they have no choice or control over their own lives. Success depends not on their own efforts, but on handouts, concessions and leg-ups given by white people. As a black person born in 1936, who has witnessed and experienced gross discrimination and seen the personal sacrifices made by both blacks and whites to create today´s opportunities, I find the victimization vision not only offensive and racially demeaning, but a gross betrayal of the monumental bravery and sacrifice of those who came before us.

South Carolina Rep. Robert Smalls (1874-1886) said it best: "My race needs no special defense, for the past history of them in this country proves them to be the equal of any people anywhere. All they need is an equal chance in the battle of life."

[The Ressurrected One]

Blacks and Bootstraps

http://www.mediatransparency.org/images/sowell_thomas.jpg
August 14, 2000
Thomas Sowell


ONE OF THE THINGS I have been falsely accused of many times over the years is advising blacks to lift themselves up by their own bootstraps. But you can look through the 21 books, dozens of articles and hundreds of newspaper columns I have written without finding any such statement. That is because I am not in the business of giving advice to individuals and groups, but rather in the business of discussing public policy and trying to show where one policy is better than another.

It is considered the height of callousness to tell blacks to lift themselves up by their own bootstraps. But the cold historical fact is that most blacks did lift themselves out of poverty by their own bootstraps -- before their political rescuers arrived on the scene with civil rights legislation in the 1960s or affirmative action policies in the 1970s.

As of 1940, 87 percent of black families lived below the official poverty line. This fell to 47 percent by 1960, without any major federal legislation on civil rights and before the rise and expansion of the welfare state under the Great Society programs of President Lyndon Johnson.

This decline in the poverty rate among blacks continued during the 1960s, dropping from 47 percent to 30 percent. But even this continuation of a trend already begun long before cannot all be attributed automatically to the new government programs. Moreover, the first decade of affirmative action -- the 1970s -- ended with the poverty rate among black families at 29 percent. Even if that one percent decline was due to affirmative action, it was not much.

The fact that an entirely different picture has been cultivated and spread throughout the media cannot change the historical facts. What it can do -- and has done -- is make blacks look like passive recipients of government beneficence, causing many whites to wonder why blacks can't advance on their own, like other groups. Worse, it has convinced many blacks themselves that their economic progress depends on government programs in general and affirmative action in particular.

It is undoubtedly true that the careers of black "leaders," politicians and community activists depend heavily on government programs. It is their ability to lobby for government goodies that keeps such people in business and in the limelight. It was the breakdown of restrictions on black voting in the South that caused a rapidly rising number of black elected officials.

Even today, it is the politicizing of racial hype that enables many black public figures to remain public figures and to extort money and concessions from private businesses by threatening to call them racists or organize boycotts if they don't pony up. There is no question that the 1960s marked the decisive upturn in opportunity for race hustlers.

At one time, the aspirations of black leaders and the well being of the black population at large coincided, since both were striving to end Jim Crow laws and other racial barriers. But such coincidences do not last, either among blacks or among other racial or ethnic groups in the United States or in other countries.

"Leaders" have their own interests and agendas that they push, even when the effect on those for whom they claim to speak is detrimental. That is where we are today. Black leaders have a vested interest in black dependency -- on them and on the government that they can try to influence.

Independent blacks who make it on their own are ignored as irrelevant or distracting. That is true not only of individuals, but also of institutions like all-black Dunbar High School in Washington, which for 85 years brought quality education to its students. Dunbar students exceeded national norms on IQ tests, years before the Supreme Court said that separate education was inherently unequal.

Dunbar was located within walking distance of the Supreme Court that essentially declared its existence impossible. Ironically, it was the political maneuvering following the historic desegregation decision of the High Court that ended Dunbar's long career as a quality institution and reduced it to just another failing ghetto school. But there are other quality black schools today -- and they are still largely ignored today.

We have now reached the point where virtually everything that serves black "leaders" -- dependency, grievance-hunting, racial hype and paranoia -- are major disservices to the cause of advancing blacks, at a time when their opportunities have never been better.

[mookie2001]

:
#2 The US DOES take away freedoms that are mine and does not let me use them.

the truest post of all time

[Clandestino]

:lmao !!!

#1 The US grants me no freedoms. Those freedoms are mine. I need not ask anyone for them.
#2 The US DOES take away freedoms that are mine and does not let me use them.
#3 The history of the United States is one which has quite possibly hurt me more than it could have helped me. I'm not really sure which way it swings, but I've love for you to explain to me how I'm benefiting from it.

you definitely shouldn't apply to the nsa or any job that requires a security clearance if these are truly your beliefs...

[The Ressurrected One]

Self-Sabotage In Black America

http://www.multiracial.com/images/mcwhorter/mcwhorter.gif
by John H. McWhorter
April/May 2001


In January 1999, David Howard, the white ombudsman to the newly elected mayor of Washington, D.C., Anthony Williams, casually said in a budget meeting with two coworkers "I will have to be niggardly with this fund because it's not going to be a lot of money."

Niggardly is a rather esoteric word meaning "stingy." Its resemblance to the racial slur ###### is accidental. It has been used in English since the Middle Ages, when black people of any kind were unknown in England, and had been imported to the country by Scandinavian Viking invaders in the 800s, in whose tongue nig meant "miser."

Howard's coworkers were a white person and a black person. The black coworker immediately stormed out of the room and would not listen to Howard's attempt to explain. Shortly thereafter, Mayor Williams curtly accepted Howard's resignation, his official position being that in a predominantly black city with a history of racial tension, Howard's choice of words was grounds for dismissal, akin to being "caught smoking in a refinery that resulted in an explosion." Black talk radio was abuzz with indignation, almost unanimously in support of Williams's decision. A former president of the National Bar Association, a mostly black group, was uncompelled by the fact that the word is not a racial slur, fuming, "Do we really know where the Norwegians got the word?" Meanwhile, David Howard was contrite, considering his dismissal deserved. "You have to be able to see things from the other person's shoes," he explained, "and I did not do that."

Niggardly is, to be sure, an awkward little word. Its chance resemblance to ###### is such that many of us might quite justifiably choose to avoid it in favor of stingy, parsimonious, or penurious. There are words like that -- the original meaning of horny was "rough or calloused," and one formerly had this word at one's disposal in describing, among other things, voice quality. In the twentieth century the word happens to have acquired the slang meaning of "sexually aroused," though, and as such it is now gracious to avoid using it in its original meaning.

Yet it was difficult not to ask whether a man deserved to be cast into unemployment because of this innocent and passing faux pas, especially a man who had dedicated his career to a troubled, predominantly black administration, and who had never shown any sign of racist bias. For many black observers, however, this was beside the point. "How would another ethnic group react if you came close to the line with a phrase inappropriate to that group?" asked the former National Bar Association president.

That rhetorical question cut through the whole issue in its way, because in fact, there is no other ethnic group in the United States today whose sensibilities would lead to someone's summary dismissal for a mere unintended allusion to a racial epithet applying to them. If Howard had made the equivalent slip-up in a Jewish, Asian, Latino, or even gay association, he would have been dutifully taken aside and informed that such a word was not the most felicitous choice and that he would be best advised not to use it in the future. He would then have been allowed to continue in his efforts to do good work.

Whatever our opinions on what happened to David Howard, only in an African-American context is the image of a man cleaning out his desk for such an evanescent little flub even processible. In other words, the firing of David Howard was "a black thing."

Like Howard's gaffe, the niggardly episode in itself was a minor flap, which will surely be all but forgotten by the time this book is in your hands. Yet it was symbolic of larger things, whose significance comes through in a thought exercise.

In the 1970s, an anecdote used to circulate in which a man is killed in a car accident but his son lives and is taken to a hospital where the surgeon says, "I can't operate on him -- he's my son." Most people were more likely to puzzle over how the boy's father could be both the doctor and dead than to even consider that the surgeon was in fact the boy's mother, and thus a woman.

Now, keeping that in mind, imagine if a Martian came to our planet and asked to interview a representative member of several leading nations, and the representative of the United States was chosen by lottery, and that the person who came up was an African American.

The fact is that for most of us, this would require the same polite adjustment needed to spontaneously imagine a female surgeon. We know that, theoretically, black Americans are "Americans." However, it's a rather intellectual point for both blacks and whites. When writers like Shelby Steele and Stanley Crouch wax eloquent about black people being Americans and perhaps even the most American of Americans, they are pushing the envelope, stretching the boundaries, attempting a transformation of thought, not simply stating a truism. The reasons such statements are more transformative than observational is because in all of our hearts, black Americans are perceived as a "case apart" in a way that almost no other native-born ethnic group in the United States is today.

Our archetypal sense of the representative "American" would be a WASP male, for example. However, a female WASP would be perceived as no less "American," nor would a white Catholic male or female. Except for an increasingly small fringe of fixated anti-Semites, no one would perceive Jewishness as refracting the American essence to any substantial degree. Although the Irish would have strained most Americans' sense of "American" a hundred years ago, today, even Irishness worn on the sleeve would arouse no comment, nor would being Italian, a Pole in Cleveland, an isolated rancher from Wyoming, or even a poor Appalachian. Whatever their individual heritages, all such people are processed as being a fundamental "part of the fabric."

The native-born people who strain our sense of who representative Americans are include Latinos, who often speak Spanish natively and have strong ties to other countries; Asians, for whom the same factors apply; and American Indians, who also often speak another language natively, are descended from indigenes torn from this land, and are now often relegated to the margins of society, and as such often have only a hesitant sense of being "American."

In this light, it is significant that black Americans are as difficult to process as representative "Americans" as many Latinos, Asians, and Indians. This is perhaps unremarkable in the case of inner-city youth. Crucially, however, our sense of dissonance would persist even if the black American chosen was an upper-middle-class corporate manager living in a manicured suburb. Somehow, all of us, black and white, can imagine this person representing the American soul as a whole only after an awkward little pause. And yet, unlike many Latinos, Asians, and Native Americans, this person speaks nothing but English natively, as have all of his ancestors and relatives alive while he was. He has no ties to another country: His distant ancestors came from not one but a number of distinct African nations, and which nations these were is probably lost to history; meanwhile, he is unlikely to have even traveled to Africa. This man is an American: there is certainly nothing else that he could logically be. And yet to all of us, what this man is first and foremost, regardless of his tailored suit, Volvo, and walk-in closets, is "black." Certainly this is how most whites see him -- but crucially, this is also how most blacks see him. As the niggardly episode demonstrated, almost forty years after the Civil Rights Act, "black" is profoundly and incontrovertibly "different," drowning out all considerations of class, income, or accomplishment.

When someone asks "Why does everything always have to be about race?" the usual subtext is that whites keep this torch burning while black Americans are increasingly frustrated in their attempts to be accepted simply as "people." But this book is written in the belief that the idea that white racism is the main obstacle to black success and achievement is now all but obsolete. Today, ironic accidents of history have created a situation in which black Americans themselves are forced into the dominant role in making it so that most of us have to think twice to remember that even a black corporate lawyer living in the suburbs is an "American."

This is due neither to opportunism nor deliberate obstinance, despite frequent claims to the contrary. It is instead an externally imposed cultural disorder that has taken on a life of its own. As such, it no more justifies an indictment of the black community than a flu epidemic would justify censuring the administration of a city. However, we can only eradicate an epidemic and heal a community by identifying it -- trace it, face it, and erase it, as one hears in twelve-step programs. Along those lines, I will show that black America is currently caught in certain ideological holding patterns that are today much, much more serious barriers to black well-being than is white racism, and constitute nothing less than a continuous, self-sustaining act of self-sabotage.

Importantly, my conception of black American well-being incorporates anything any black American might subsume under that heading. For some, the main index of black American well-being would be integration. In that light, I believe that the black community today is the main obstacle to achieving the full integration our Civil Rights leaders sought.

Yet I am aware that integration is now a tired, distant, and fraught notion for many if not most African Americans. This is encapsulated as I write in a sitcom called The Hughleys, in which a black man moves his family to the suburbs and finds himself uneasy at the prospect that they will lose their cultural blackness in the course of daily contact with whites. Whatever the wisdom or folly of this anti-integrationist trend, for such people, black well-being would be less a matter of integration than basics like financial success and psychological well-being. Crucially, however, the main thing today keeping even these goals elusive for so many black Americans is the very mindset with which history has burdened the black community.

The ideological sea of troubles plaguing black America and keeping black Americans eternally America's case apart regardless of class expresses itself in three manifestations.

The first is the Cult of Victimology, under which it has become a keystone of cultural blackness to treat victimhood not as a problem to be solved but as an identity to be nurtured. Only naiveté could lead anyone to suppose that racism does not still exist, or that there are not still problems to be solved. However, the grip of the Cult of Victimology encourages the black American from birth to fixate upon remnants of racism and resolutely downplay all signs of its demise. Black Americans too often teach one another to conceive of racism not as a scourge on the wane but as an eternal pathology changing only in form and visibility, and always on the verge of getting not better but worse. Victimology determined the niggardly episode: The basic sentiment that racism still lurks in every corner led naturally to a sense that the use of a word that even sounds like ###### was a grievous insult, in alluding to a raw, relentless oppression and persecution still beleaguering the black community from all sides. The black coworker's bolting from the room deaf to appeal illustrated this, with the implication that the mere utterance of a particular sequence of sounds was an injury beyond all possible discussion, regardless of its actual meaning. More than a few black Washingtonians even surmised that Howard was using the word as a way of slipping the epithet in the back door, under the impression that racism this naked is still typical of most whites in private. Only in a community concerned less with solving victimhood than nurturing it would a mayor compare Howard's harmless little blooper to "being caught smoking in a refinery" and deny a man his job, instead of informing him of his mistake and allowing him to move on with the business of running the city.

The second manifestation is Separatism, a natural outgrowth of Victimology, which encourages black Americans to conceive of black people as an unofficial sovereign entity, within which the rules other Americans are expected to follow are suspended out of a belief that our victimhood renders us morally exempt from them. Because of this, the sad thing was that Anthony Williams was in a sense engaging in the business of "running the city" in accepting Howard's resignation. At the outset of his administration when the niggardly episode happened, the low-key, Ivy League-educated Williams was widely suspected of being "not black enough" in comparison to former mayor Marion Barry. He had first been chief financial officer on the control board that had taken over the city from Barry by order of Congress. He had gone on to be elected by whites and successful blacks, and had then brought a great many whites onto his staff. As such, Williams felt compelled to let Howard go in order to show his allegiance to the predominantly black constituency he had come to serve. Importantly, showing that allegiance meant firing a man for an innocent mistake. This irony was due to the fact that the Cult of Victimology has a stranglehold upon most of the black Washington community, and conditions various local rules considered appropriate for blacks in the name of victimhood, i.e., a Separatist conception of morality. One manifestation of this sovereign morality had reelected Marion Barry after he had run the city into the ground despite billions of dollars in Federal aid and been sent to prison for drug use. The idea that a white official uttering a word that sounds like ###### must be fired regardless of his intent was simply one more manifestation. In other words, for Williams, part of running Washington, D.C., was showing that he was rooted in Separatism.

Separatism spawns the third manifestation, a strong tendency toward Anti-intellectualism at all levels of the black community. Founded in the roots of the culture in poverty and disenfranchisement, this tendency has now become a culture-internal infection nurtured by a distrust of the former oppressor. As I will demonstrate in this book, it is this, and not unequal distribution of educational resources, that is the root cause of the notorious lag in black students' grades and test scores regardless of class or income level, and this thought pattern, like Victimology and Separatism, rears its head in every race-related issue in the United States. "Do we really know where the Norwegians got the word?" I recall the former president of the National Bar Association asking in reference to niggardly. Yet the Scandinavians are not exactly well known for their role in the slave trade -- the Danes and the Swedes tried their hand briefly but never made much of a mark. This man might object that racism spreads nevertheless, but even here, a question arises: Blacks have been unjustly stereotyped as being many things, but "stingy" is not one of them. As such, how likely is it that niggardly would ever have referred to black people? How plausible is it that people picked up the slur ###### in a region where few people had ever even seen a black person until a few decades ago? Even if we somehow allow this, why exactly would they then proceed to apply the word to people who are tight with their cash? ("Come on, Sven, don't be such a ###### -- buy me a beer.") But this past president of the National Bar Association obviously did not pause to even briefly consider any of this, even before making statements to the press. A minor thing in itself, to be sure, but symptomatic of a general sense in much of the black community that to dwell upon such things as the origins of arcane words and, by extension, books, is "of another world," specifically the white one.

One of the most important things about these three currents is that whites in America do nothing less than encourage them. This is partly, as Shelby Steele argues, out of a sense of moral obligation that leads most whites to condone Victimology, Separatism, and Anti-intellectualism as "understandable" responses to the horrors of the past. More than a few whites have come to see the condescension inherent in this, but only the occasional few dare express their opinion openly or at any length, since such an act is as likely to attract excoriation from other whites as from blacks. Whites also unwittingly encourage all of these currents via well-intentioned social policies like open-ended welfare and permanent affirmative action, which are intended to help blacks overcome, but in practice only roil the waters under all three currents. Whites are now implicated in nurturing black self-sabotage not because of racist malevolence, but because of the same historical accidents that have encouraged blacks to embrace these thought patterns. Yet the fact remains that interracial relations in America have congealed into a coded kind of dance that unwittingly encourages black people to preserve and reinforce their status as "other," and a pitiable, weak, and unintelligent "other" at that. This, too, was evident in the niggardly episode, in which David Howard actually accepted the condemnation rained upon him by most of black Washington. Howard thought that he deserved to be fired for innocently uttering a word that even sounded like ######, even though what he was doing while uttering it was helping to improve the lives of the city's citizens.

One misconception about these three currents is that they are merely fringe phenomena, minor overswings of the pendulum that need not concern us in the long run. However, adherents of Victimology are in no sense limited to the likes of melodramatically opportunist politicians such as Al Sharpton, academic identity politics mavens such as Derrick Bell and Lani Guinier, or sensationalist cultural demagogues such as June Jordan. On the contrary, Victimology has become, less fervently but with profound influence nevertheless, part of the very essence of modern black identity. It now permeates the consciousness of a great many black Americans in all walks of life, most of whom in a recent poll were under the impression that three out of four black Americans lived in ghettoes, as opposed to the actual figure, which is one in five. Similarly, the furious and militant separatism of people like former Nation of Islam official Khalid Muhummad is but the tip of an iceberg. The general sense that the black person operates according to different rules was eloquently demonstrated, for example, by the muted concern with the open sexism of the Million Man March -- what group in America could any of us even begin to imagine convening an all-male march in 1995 other than African Americans? The Anti-intellectual current is often thought to be primarily an inner-city problem typical of underclass youth alienated from poor schools, but is in fact a tremendous impediment to black culture as a whole, as shown by the little-noted fact that even middle-class black students tend to make substandard grades even in well-funded suburban schools where teachers are making herculean, culturally sensitive efforts to reach them. In short, these three currents are neither only inner-city ills, mere cynical ploys by politicians, nor just smug fantasy churned out from the ivory tower by the brie-and-Zinfandel set. They are so endemic to black culture as a whole that they are no longer even perceived as points of view, but rather as simple logic incarnate. In other words, these defeatist thought patterns have become part of the bedrock of black identity.

The most serious misconception about these three currents, however, is that there is nothing wrong with them, and even that they are an evolutionary advance that other identity groups would benefit from adopting. On the contrary, these three currents hold black Americans back from the true freedom that so many consider whites to be denying them. Victimology is seductive because there is an ironic and addictive contentment in underdoggism. However, it also inherently gives failure, lack of effort, and even criminality a tacit stamp of approval. In addition, because focusing on the negative debases the performance of any human being, focusing on remaining aspects of victimhood rather than the rich opportunities before us is a ball and chain restraining any effort to move ahead. Separatism promises the balm of a sense of roots, and offers an escape from the vicissitudes of making our way into realms so recently closed to us. But the wary social remove that Separatism encourages blacks to maintain from whites regardless of actual experience is a much more powerful factor than white racism in making blacks less likely to be hired, or especially, promoted. Black Anti-intellectualism can often seem like a jolly and even healthy alternative to sterile nerdishness, but it is also, as I have noted, the main reason blacks underperform in school. On a broader level, a race permanently wary of close reasoning and learning for learning's sake is one not only spiritually impoverished, but permanently prevented from forging the best techniques for working toward a better future.

I have written this book under the conviction that it doesn't have to be this way, and that more to the point, it absolutely must not. Black America is currently embarked on a tragic detour. Accidents of history have condemned us to miss an unprecedented opportunity to reach Martin Luther King's mountaintop. In the first four chapters of this book, I will discuss the operations of these three currents in modern African-American thought. In the next two chapters I will show how these currents have shaped two race-related issues of wide impact, the affirmative action debate and the controversy over whether or not the in-group speech of black Americans is an African language called "Ebonics," which ought to be used in classrooms as an aid to teaching black children to read. The last chapter will outline suggestions for getting back on the track that our Civil Rights leaders set us upon. Following that track will require some profound adjustments in black identity, which today would feel nothing less than alien to most African Americans under the age of seventy. Nevertheless, these adjustments are not only possible, but most importantly are the only thing that will cut through the circularity and fraudulence infusing so much of interracial relations in America today, and bring African Americans at last to true equality in the only country that will ever be their home.

Is school a "white" thing? If not, then why do African-American students from comfortable middle-class backgrounds perform so badly in the classroom? What is it that prevents so many black college students in the humanities and social sciences from studying anything other than black subjects? Why do young black people, born decades after the heyday of the Civil Rights movement, see victimhood as the defining element of their existence?

In this explosive book, Berkeley linguistics professor John McWhorter reports from the trenches of today's college classroom to offer a daring assessment of what's plaguing the children of yesterday's affirmative-action babies. The Civil Rights revolution was the pinnacle of American history, freeing African Americans from centuries of disenfranchisement. Yet, as McWhorter shows, it has had a tragic side effect. As racism recedes as a serious obstacle to black advancement, most black American leaders and thinkers have been misled into a self-destructive ideological detour. Victimhood is exaggerated and enshrined more than constructively addressed. Following from this, young black people are shepherded into a separatist conception of "blackness" defined largely as that which is not "white." This in turn conditions a sense, embedded in black American culture as a whole, that academic achievement is a "white" realm that the "authentic" black person dwells in only for financial gain or to chronicle black victimhood and victories.

McWhorter addresses these problems head-on, drawing on history, statistics, and his own life experiences. He shows that affirmative action in university admissions, indispensable 30 years ago, is today an obsolete policy that encourages the counterproductive ideologies of what he calls Separatism, Victimology, and Anti-intellectualism. Most perniciously, it prevents black students from demonstrating the abilities our Civil Rights leaders gave them the opportunity to nurture, and it deprives them of the incentive to strive for the very top.

Racism is not dead -- but as McWhorter so persuasively argues, dealing it a death blow will require a reinvestment in the strength that allowed black Americans to triumph and survive this far. His pathbreaking book is certain to shock, inspire, and ignite debate among all those who care about race and education today.

[The Ressurrected One]

More from Mr. Sowell


NO GROUP votes more solidly for the Democrats than blacks -- and no group suffers more as a result than blacks. Political spin makes Democrats the best friends of blacks, the party of civil rights laws, the party of affirmative action and the party of social programs to help the poor in general and blacks in particular. But spin and facts are very different things.

The fact is that a higher percentage of Republicans than Democrats voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965. Despite all the media hype about the confederate flag flying over the state capitol in South Carolina, no Republican put that flag there. The Democrats' Senator Fritz Hollings, who was governor of South Carolina in the 1960s, put that confederate flag there at a time when it was used all across the South as a symbol of resistance to the civil rights movement.

With all the criticism of Texas Governor George W. Bush for not telling the state of South Carolina what to do, there was scarcely a word anywhere about Democrat Fritz Hollings. That's the media for you.

Democrats can claim credit -- if that's the word -- for all the government social programs that have played such a role in the disintegration of families. These programs have done little to reduce poverty. Blacks did more to reduce their own poverty than the government ever has.

Between 1940 and 1960, the poverty rate among black families fell from 87 percent to 47 percent. Yet there was no major federal civil rights legislation or welfare state programs created during that period. The continuing rise of blacks out of poverty during the 1960s, when their poverty rate fell an additional 17 points, cannot be arbitrarily attributed to the Great Society programs, since this trend was already decades old before these programs were created.

As for the first decade of affirmative action -- the 1970s -- the poverty rate among blacks fell by only one percentage point then.

Education had much to do with the rise of blacks. As of 1940, black adults averaged just 5 years of schooling. By 1960 that was 8 years and by 1970 it was 10 years. Obviously, doubling your education within one generation tends to increase your income, regardless of which party is in power or what policies they follow.

In our own high-tech era, education is even more important. Nothing is more of a handicap to blacks today than inadequate education. There are many reasons for these inadequacies. How do the Democrats and Republicans compare, when it comes to the education of black youngsters?

Democrats are too completely dependent on the teachers' unions to be able to break the public school monopoly or to get rid of incompetent teachers or even to insist on the teaching of the basics, instead of the dumbed down education and amateur social engineering that the education establishment likes.

Republicans have a golden opportunity to offer blacks something that the Democrats cannot possibly offer -- the right of parents to choose where their own children go to school.

Whatever political support there is for vouchers has come almost exclusively from Republicans. Democrats are totally opposed -- and have to be, if they want to continue getting the millions of dollars contributed by the teachers' unions.

Another factor in the decline of American education in general and education in low-income minority communities in particular, is the difficulty of either punishing or expelling disruptive and violent students who destroy the education of the other students. Liberal judges have made it literally a federal case when schools crack down on disruptive and violent students.

Who appoints liberal judges? Usually Democrats, though Republicans have slipped up and appointed a few as well.

One of the other huge handicaps that black students face is the attitude that trying to learn is "acting white." Self-destructive as this notion may be, it is a logical corollary of the social vision that says whitey is out to get you and it doesn't matter how much you know or how hard you try. Which party panders to this victimhood vision? Which party cuddles up with race hustlers like Al Sharpton, who promote this paranoid tribalism? The Democrats in general and Al Gore and Hillary Clinton in particular.

These are the facts. But how much weight do facts carry on election day?

[The Ressurrected One]

Nothing like facts, presented by blacks, to stop the Liberal mumbo-jumbo dead in its tracks. (<< Damn! I just realized how much that sounded like it could have come from the mouth of Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton)

Don't debate me. Debate Walter Williams, Thomas Sowell, and John McWhorter...after all, I agree with them and they disagree with you.

[The Ressurrected One]

*yawn*
Okie dokie.