McDyess or Gooden? Did we make a mistake?

[wildbill2u]

In every category of statistics except FG percentage, Drew Gooden is beating McDyess this year, even though he's coming off the bench for the Mavericks after an injury.

I was one who thought he was too much of a ball-hog shooter when he was here, but maybe that was due to the pressure of coming in late in the year when his contract year was up. He seems to have blended in well with the Mavs this year and has become something of a fan favorite because of his hustle.

Oh, and did I mention he's more athletic, maybe because he's SEVEN years younger than McD.

What you y'all think?

[Ikstomi]

hell no

[SequSpur]

Well..I don't know about Gooden, but I've been saying from day 1 that mcdice wasn't a good fit for the spurs.

[easy7]

I rather the Spurs play 4 against 5 than to play the 4 against 6 that Gooden will give you if he was with the Spurs.

[pawe]

I rather the Spurs play 4 against 5 than to play the 4 against 6 that Gooden will give you if he was with the Spurs.

Explain please.

Just because a lot of people here were dissing Gooden a year ago doesn't mean he is really worthless. He was very good on the low block and the dude was an offensive powerhouse. Sure he was lazy on defense and he doesn't rotate properly but he makes up for it in guts in taking those shots.

Dice, right now doesn't really show anything. Hope he really is Horry-like when it comes to pacing himself or the team will really be fucked in the playoffs.

[dbestpro]

As of right now there is no doubt that Gooden is a better player than Dice. You can even say Theo is a more active player than Dice. Hell, Ian might even give you more effort.

[easy7]

Explain please.

Just because a lot of people here were dissing Gooden a year ago doesn't mean he is really worthless. He was very good on the low block and the dude was an offensive powerhouse. Sure he was lazy on defense and he doesn't rotate properly but he makes up for it in guts in taking those shots.

Dice, right now doesn't really show anything. Hope he really is Horry-like when it comes to pacing himself or the team will really be fucked in the playoffs.

See http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142668

People in Dallas really love him. Dude has no defense and is a black hole when you give him the ball, it is good when the ball is falling in but when it is not you are down a player and the other team is up one.

[SenorSpur]

Funny you bring this up. I've been thinking about this recently.

When the Spurs first signed Dice, I thought he'd immediately be a clear upgrade and better all-around fit for the Spurs. His elbow jumper has been damn near automatic - at least until he came to the Spurs. And he's been an adequate rebounder. Dude averaged 9 & 9 last season. I know Dice is a notorioius slow starter and he's certainly been slow getting out of the gate this year, but he's still considerably older than Gooden.

Gooden, on the other hand, is a bit of a black hole; doesn't have the BBIQ of Dice. However, he's been more active, has better post moves and has been more of an on-court factor, thus far for the Mavs.

All that said, it appears the jury is still out on the comparison between the two. Yet, it's something to keep an eye on. I had no problem with the signing then, but if things hold true to form, this swapout will have been a mistake. It will also expose Pop's loyalty of AARP veterans over younger, possibly more talented players.

[galvatron3000]

I'd rather have McDyess

[dbestpro]

It will also expose Pop's loyalty of AARP veterans over younger, possibly more talented players.

Pop has become a lazy coach. He pefers vets cause he thinks there is less to do. So, he does less as a coach even if the vets are in need of some heavy duty coaching as a team.

[sabar]

This team doesn't need a player that needs shots to produce. We already have too many scorers with no idea how to get them all shots.

[greyforest]

gooden is not a team player

[SenorSpur]

gooden is not a team player

...and Tony Parker continues to demonstrate the same.

[RamReddy]

More like Theo or Gooden?

[bless1187]

Seriously if i had to pick, i'd take what D. Gooden gave us last year over what A. McDyess is giving us now. D. Gooden was actually pretty decent for us last year; but A. McDyess hasn't really done anything so far in his time in SA.

[TJastal]

McDyess is going to get better and better as the season wears on. I'd much rather have a team player like him than the 40% shooting black hole known as Drew Gooden.

[InvolvingDesigns]

it dont matter who we have, we still suck

[doobs]

This is retarded. McDyess replaced KT. Blair replaced Gooden.

In both cases, the Spurs are better off.

[slick'81]

exactly having gooden or mcdyess doesnt change much

[Spursmania]

McDyess will be there guys. Look at his career record. He comes on strong in February-playoffs. He's still got it, and his D will be there in the end.

I wouldn't trust Gooden on D. There's a reason teams pass Gooden up.

[wildbill2u]

Gooden is playing much better defense in Dallas than he did here. McDy is showing his age on defense, a tad slow on the rotations.

And Gooden even has more assists that McDy which surprises me.

[Spursmania]

Agree that at this point in time Gooden looks better than McDyess. But come crunch time, Dyess better show why we brought him here.

And, if he's still sucking in a few weeks then the Spurs screwed up in going after him. I hope that is not the case.

[dirk4mvp]

Gooden will be on a playoff team this year. McDyess won't be. End of this story.

[iggypop123]

good sucks but mydess is just done, not his fault.

[Spursmania]

Gooden will be on a playoff team this year. McDyess won't be. End of this story.

So, you don't think the Spurs will make the playoffs?

[iggypop123]

So, you don't think the Spurs will make the playoffs?

they are too talented, and they are actually healthy. if they dont make it pop should be fired

[FkLA]

Mavs fans hate Gooden, guys a chucker on offense and dissapears on defense. Give me Dice anyday...I still think Dice is the perfect fit despite him underperforming. He was the Pistons' best and most consistant player in the playoffs last year, I dont buy this talk that he's done. His jumpshot will come around and he's still rebounding and playing smart defense.

[Spursmania]

they are too talented, and they are actually healthy. if they dont make it pop should be fired

Completely agree with you.

I don't agree with Dirkmvp's comment about the Spurs not making the playoffs. So, I wondered if his comment was based on pure homerism or if he truly lacks any basketball objectivity/knowledge. :toast

[benefactor]

Are we really having this discussion? Spur fan is approaching a delusional state.

[dirk4mvp]

Completely agree with you.

I don't agree with Dirkmvp's comment about the Spurs not making the playoffs. So, I wondered if his comment was based on pure homerism or if he truly lacks any basketball objectivity/knowledge. :toast

I was throwing some bait out and you bit. Thanks.

[Spursmania]

I was throwing some bait out and you bit. Thanks.

You always do that:lol

Merry Christmas:toast

[dirk4mvp]

I've been counter trolled.

:hat


:toast

[wildbill2u]

Accordin to Real GM, McDy ranks at 162 in salary with 161 players paid more. Gooden ranks at 163 in salary with 162 players being paid more. Hmmm.

I guess the move wasn't for financial reasons. Must've been part of Pop's Give an Old Vet a Chance at a Ring program that has been so wildly successful.

[Muser]

Dice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gooden

[admiralsnackbar]

Gooden may miraculously grow a brain in the next few years, but we don't have the time to wait for that to happen. Dice has fewer miles left, but his offensive skill-set, defense, and brains make him more of a player than Gooden can ever hope to be in the near future, however nice a guy as he may be.

[anonoftheinternets]

...and Tony Parker continues to demonstrate the same.

i forgot the part where gooden is co-leader of the spurs team. Are you implying they are the same? We can tolerate tony coz hes part of the core team and Gooden isnt.

[baseline bum]

Gooden is shooting 42.5%. Is the OP serious here?

[benefactor]

Luke 15:16(NLT)

"The young man became so hungry that even the pods he was feeding the pigs looked good to him. But no one gave him anything."

[SCdac]

Gooden is shooting 42.5%. Is the OP serious here?

and compared to McDyess he's +9 in TO's and +18 in PF's... something we hardly need more of.

[duhoh]

gooden is not a team player. you don't ever get passes from him

[DPG21920]

Look friends. I know things look bleak right now and I know as fans you want to win every game. I also know it sounds cliche to say "give it time", but give it time. Especially with regards to Dice. He has not been playing well at all, but I truly believe he has more in him.

[Dice]

McDyess is trying hard to adjust to this system. He'll be fine. I liked what I saw out of his defensive rotations last game and think that with more minutes, he'll get back to his style of play.

Also, he's only averaging 5 shots a game. How's he supposed to put up big numbers when he never really gets the ball?

[DPG21920]

McDyess is trying hard to adjust to this system. He'll be fine. I liked what I saw out of his defensive rotations last game and think that with more minutes, he'll get back to his style of play.

Also, he's only averaging 5 shots a game. How's he supposed to put up big numbers when he never really gets the ball?

It has not just been his offense. His rebounding, defense and lack of energy is a bigger concern in my book. But the team is struggling and I expect him to come around.

[HarlemHeat37]

McDyess isn't the answer to our big man problems at all, but I'd rather take the risk on him having his usual solid 2nd half of the season, instead of having Drew fucking Gooden on the team..

[Lukor]

As a Mav fan i can tell you that Gooden is one of the most unpopular players, he is a blackhole on offense and his BBIQ is just really really bad. i'd much rather take McDyess, even though i'd wonder how much he has left. He seems to be in a sort of slump right now, he was playing better earlier in the season.

[Dice]

It has not just been his offense. His rebounding, defense and lack of energy is a bigger concern in my book. But the team is struggling and I expect him to come around.

I've been watching him for a long time. I really think what's coming off as a lack of effort and his overall performance has more to do with the offensive and defensive schemes he's trying to learn. A lot of times he looks lost on offense and I see him slow on a couple of rotations-not because he's not fast enough- but because he reacted too late. It's like he's trying to remeber what to do right in the middle of the game.

He'll come around before too much longer (personally I'd prefer tonight). As a fan it sucks trying to defend a player you know so well when he's not performing the way you know and expect.

[wildbill2u]

I watch McDy move and sometimes his legs are just stiff. He's moving like an old man who has played too many games on knees without much cartilege from all the pounding. Not that I'm comparing myself to a pro athlete's doctor, but I can recognize the symptoms.

[EricB]

You people are fucking kidding me right? Gooden > mcdyess?! Are you people sucking on car tailpipes now as opposed to taking your regular dose of idiot pills now?

[Sean Cagney]

HELL NO, thread is null and void.

[Dice]

I watch McDy move and sometimes his legs are just stiff. He's moving like an old man who has played too many games on knees without much cartilege from all the pounding. Not that I'm comparing myself to a pro athlete's doctor, but I can recognize the symptoms.

How'd he do tonight? I didn't see. Did he do ok? How were those old knees?

[spursnatic]

I think Gooden helped his self out by coming in this year in better shape...It is very obvious that he has lost a bunch of weight?...I think he knows that he is in a contract year, so the better in shape he is in, the better he plays...But I am happy with McDyess!!!.....

[NZ Spurs]

You people are fucking kidding me right? Gooden > mcdyess?! Are you people sucking on car tailpipes now as opposed to taking your regular dose of idiot pills now?

Every fucking thread is like this. Most of the posters on the board are basketball illiterate.

[Mark in Austin]

All you have to do to take Gooden out of the game is show him something shiny. That usually distracts him for at least 10-15 minutes.

The Spurs system was too complicated for Gooden - he never got it. End of story.

[wut]

That's because Gooden is someone who will never be as talented as McDyess.

Let's face it, McDyess is past his prime...that's the only reason this conversation exists.

McDyess is known to show up in the playoffs....Gooden just faded.

[DynastySpurs210]

hmm.....

[anonoftheinternets]

an embarrassment of a thread ...

[narmerguy]

All you have to do to take Gooden out of the game is show him something shiny. That usually distracts him for at least 10-15 minutes.

The Spurs system was too complicated for Gooden - he never got it. End of story.

Players are still struggling, cut the guy some slack.


an embarrassment of a thread ...

Well it's kinda dumb but why not be open to other's ideas and viewpoints? Not everyone agrees on the merits of a player. There are some extremely narrowminded people on this site.

[BackHome]

He fits with Dallas they beat you with offense and Spurs beat you with Defense.

[bbarry]

gooden could never ever hit all those jumpers like mcdyess has been doing this season, all his career as well.

[Obilivo]

They both don't fit for spurs.

[lennyalderette]

ummm yeah like i said dice will turn it up after xmas, and right on schedule he has done so. watch what happens after all star break!!! you see retards, gooden has already peaked in that system which is never a good sign, and if youre smart you would have realized that. like ppl on here have already said " gooden is a black hole, false advertisement, lazy " all of em, and dice has a much higher bball IQ. when players peak at the beg. of the season and then drop off it shows that they are one dimensional players. measure in distance and you will see who is the better player

[TD 21]

It's not that McDyess doesn't fit, it's that they probably had him miscast in the role they brought him in for; which was presumably to start next to Duncan and be the number two big on the roster. At this point in his career, he's more of a third big man, which is the role he's now playing. Eventually, if this team is going to even get close to accomplishing what they intend to, then (barring a trade) he'll have to probably end up starting and logging extended minutes.

As for Gooden, he's solid, but he's a classic case of numbers not telling the whole story. Statistically, he can score and rebound, but he's not a terribly efficient scorer, is known for taking bad shots and defensively he's sub par. In short, he's a mistake player and lacks the IQ for the game, the savvy defensively and the mid-range marksmanship that McDyess does.

McDyess has been a disappointment to this point, but you can start to see he's coming out of his early season malaise. As is necessary at his age and with past knee surgeries, he doesn't play in the summer to rest his knees for the season so he plays his way into shape during the season, which is why he's a notoriously slow starter and an excellent second half player.

[MavDynasty]

He fits with Dallas they beat you with offense and Spurs beat you with Defense.

Weird considering how the Spurs are better offensively this year than the Mavs and how the Mavs are better defensively.

Drew Gooden tonight with 19 pts on 8-8 shooting along with 10 rbds in 27 min. Good game from him despite his shitty FT shooting (3-7)

[anonoftheinternets]

Weird considering how the Spurs are better offensively this year than the Mavs and how the Mavs are better defensively.

Drew Gooden tonight with 19 pts on 8-8 shooting along with 10 rbds in 27 min. Good game from him despite his shitty FT shooting (3-7)

no one is trashing gooden. But he is a bad fit because he is a black hole on offense, further he needs to be in the low post to produce (duncs got this spot), and thirdly his strongest suit is offensive rebounds and hustle which is pointless since spurs emaphasise getting back on transition D. Bad fit.

[wildbill2u]

From the Dallas News Headline today: Perfect Game for Gooden

"Gooden has had crazier statistical games this season, but nver has he been more efficient or sent a better message than he did in shooting 8-for-8 and ringing up 19 points and 10 rebounds."

"In addition to some wild, highlight reel shots...Gooden also ANCHORED {Caps mine} a salty defense that shut down Carmelo Anthony, and never let Kenyon Martin, Nene or Chris Anderson get their claws into the Mavericks.

Rick Carlisle said "This is why we got him is because of guys like Martin, Neen and Anderson--to be able tobattle those guys. He did a great job Plus you throw in the offensive numbers and he was a big difference?"

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Gooden should be nicknamed "Statsheet". His game always looks good on paper. I think we tried the Gooden experiment with limited success.

[quentin_compson]

Gooden should be nicknamed "Statsheet". His game always looks good on paper. I think we tried the Gooden experiment with limited success.

Exactly. He had a couple of games for us where he looked good and his general statistical production wasn't that bad at all. However, he was not and is not the answer to our problems, especially not on the defensive end.

[DaBears]

it dont matter who we have, we still suck

thankyou!! Everyone seems to be forgetting that McDyess is a terrible defender as well.. He cant stay in front of his man, gets beat constantly making Duncan have to come help, with the play ending making Duncan look a fool.. Rebound's the man cant even give you decent numbers there as a backup Center.... His Shot blocking is non existint, i think he might be the worth 2nd to last in blocks on team only behind TP... You can count on 1 hand how many block shots he has this season.. The only think he has going is his 15-17 ft jumper... Thats it... Defense i say is still the main problem...

And please dont get me started on JR's defense, his game has more holes in it than swiss cheese.. And turns it over more than any other player on the team not named Ginobli.

[wildbill2u]

Exactly. He had a couple of games for us where he looked good and his general statistical production wasn't that bad at all. However, he was not and is not the answer to our problems, especially not on the defensive end.

According to quote in paper, Gooden's coach says his help was primarily on defense against the Nugget front line and the offensive stats were simply frosting on the cake. But what does Carlisle know?

[mingus]

Gooden isn't a guy you want in the game for the last few minutes of an important game. his head was up his ass on D, he sets SHITTY picks (maybe the worse pick setter in the entire league), and as others have said he was a blackhole on offense.

when he wasn't shooting/scoring well he was a non-factor.

McDyess has started off a little slow, but that can be said about everyone outside of Duncan and to an extent Blaire and Hill. once he gets it, he'll be a great fit for this team. in some games he's shown what he can be for this team eventually, but it's about doing it night-in-night-out.

[senorglory]

tEveryone seems to be forgetting that McDyess is a terrible defender as well.

?

[TIMMYD!]

thankyou!! Everyone seems to be forgetting that McDyess is a terrible defender as well.. He cant stay in front of his man, gets beat constantly making Duncan have to come help, with the play ending making Duncan look a fool.. Rebound's the man cant even give you decent numbers there as a backup Center.... His Shot blocking is non existint, i think he might be the worth 2nd to last in blocks on team only behind TP... You can count on 1 hand how many block shots he has this season.. The only think he has going is his 15-17 ft jumper... Thats it... Defense i say is still the main problem...

And please dont get me started on JR's defense, his game has more holes in it than swiss cheese.. And turns it over more than any other player on the team not named Ginobli.

WTF are you talkin' about?

[Dice]

thankyou!! Everyone seems to be forgetting that McDyess is a terrible defender as well.. He cant stay in front of his man, gets beat constantly making Duncan have to come help, with the play ending making Duncan look a fool.. Rebound's the man cant even give you decent numbers there as a backup Center.... His Shot blocking is non existint, i think he might be the worth 2nd to last in blocks on team only behind TP... You can count on 1 hand how many block shots he has this season.. The only think he has going is his 15-17 ft jumper... Thats it... Defense i say is still the main problem...

And please dont get me started on JR's defense, his game has more holes in it than swiss cheese.. And turns it over more than any other player on the team not named Ginobli.

His D is fine. His rebounding is fine for the minutes he's getting when you consider he's playing along side Duncan and Blair. His defense has been fine. He's done a great job on a lot of the opposing big men the spurs have played this season. He's gets burned once or twice but so does everyone. Of course once some of the basketball geniuses on this site see one of these burns Antonio immediately becomes the worst defender in all of the NBA. Name a low post defender that game after game shuts down the league's other big men.

Duncan gets burned on high screen and rolls where his man is quicker than him. David Lee shot open jumper after open jumper last night because Duncan isn't that comfortable with his speed that far out on the perimeter. Big deal. Is Duncan a sub standard defender?

[anonoftheinternets]

His D is fine. His rebounding is fine for the minutes he's getting when you consider he's playing along side Duncan and Blair. His defense has been fine. He's done a great job on a lot of the opposing big men the spurs have played this season. He's gets burned once or twice but so does everyone. Of course once some of the basketball geniuses on this site see one of these burns Antonio immediately becomes the worst defender in all of the NBA. Name a low post defender that game after game shuts down the league's other big men.

Duncan gets burned on high screen and rolls where his man is quicker than him. David Lee shot open jumper after open jumper last night because Duncan isn't that comfortable with his speed that far out on the perimeter. Big deal. Is Duncan a sub standard defender?

second night of back to back ... also mcdyess is not much of a shotblocker anymore, but is defientely better than average defender. Same cannot be said of gooden.

[quentin_compson]

According to quote in paper, Gooden's coach says his help was primarily on defense against the Nugget front line and the offensive stats were simply frosting on the cake. But what does Carlisle know?

I haven't seen this game or really seen Gooden play a lot for Dallas at all. So I don't know, maybe it was just one good game, maybe he is a better defender for them than he was for us. But would you really say he looked like he could be a solid defending Big next to Duncan based on what he offered us last season?

[wildbill2u]

He only played in 19 games at the end of the season without any prepaation like preseason to help learn the Spurs defensive system which everyone agrees is a difficult system to learn .

It's not as though McDy came in after camp and preseason and started kicking ass and taking names on defense. Instead we get excuses like "He always starts the year slow" like those posters really know shit about him and his past play.

All I know is that 28 usually beats 35 when it comes to useful minutes. And that's what the stats and minutes seem to indicate is happening. Pop has now decided that McDy can't start and has to come off the bench and that means Bonner has to start. Not what a lot of us anticipated for McDy.

[anonoftheinternets]

He only played in 19 games at the end of the season without any prepaation like preseason to help learn the Spurs defensive system which everyone agrees is a difficult system to learn .

It's not as though McDy came in after camp and preseason and started kicking ass and taking names on defense. Instead we get excuses like "He always starts the year slow" like those posters really know shit about him and his past play.

All I know is that 28 usually beats 35 when it comes to useful minutes. And that's what the stats and minutes seem to indicate is happening. Pop has now decided that McDy can't start and has to come off the bench and that means Bonner has to start. Not what a lot of us anticipated for McDy.

mcdyess has always been a bench player even for pistons...Last season started for them only coz of injuries .... obv you dont do your homework.

[Buddy Holly]

LOL at this fail of a thread.

[spursfan1000]

They both kind of have the same game, except Mcdyess has a better IQ and better defense, only bad thing about losing Gooden was that he was so younger than Mcdyess.

[wildbill2u]

I'd like to revive this thread because of the recent performances of the two players. Does anyone know for sure what the relative payrolls are

[The Great Fantastic]

Gooden played extremely hard last night. He wants to beat up on his old team. It's just weird that his old team was only his team for 20 games? Gooden hustles on most nights and some nights he can really score. At the end of the day he is a dumbass. You can't trust him.

Ask me 1,000 times today who I want on the team, with current contract and all, I take McDyess 999 times. You might catch me talking to somebody else and hear a "It's all gooden!" but that just comes up in conversation.

[wildbill2u]

Gooden played extremely hard last night. He wants to beat up on his old team. It's just weird that his old team was only his team for 20 games? Gooden hustles on most nights and some nights he can really score. At the end of the day he is a dumbass. You can't trust him.

Ask me 1,000 times today who I want on the team, with current contract and all, I take McDyess 999 times. You might catch me talking to somebody else and hear a "It's all gooden!" but that just comes up in conversation.


Gooden's not playing like that just against the Spurs as revenge. Read anything from Dallas players and coaches and they think he is a real good addition to the team.

I'm not sure a dumbass big man role player off the bench for a double double isn't a better option than an old guy with a great BB Iq who hasn't got it anymore.

The point is that it looks to me that we made a mistake and took the weaker player at this point in time. Maybe if we had the option of looking at them both at comparable points in their career Dice would have been the better choice--but now? Maybe not.

[wildbill2u]

A defining story on Gooden from the Dallas paper. The Mavs coaches and players have had time to assess his play and they really appreciate the guy. I wish we'd have given him another year. When was the last time anyone on our team had 18 rebounds in one game?

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/basketball/mavs/stories/010710dnspomavsdate.3147612.html

[BlackSwordsMan]

I miss kurt thomas

[I-Ball]

when talking about role-players it is not who is the better player. the question is who is the better player within a specific team concept.

Gooden is fitting for the mavs and their needs.
he obvoiusly wasn't working within the spurs. at least not the way popovich wanted/ expected.

[The Great Fantastic]

Gooden's not playing like that just against the Spurs as revenge. Read anything from Dallas players and coaches and they think he is a real good addition to the team.

I'm not sure a dumbass big man role player off the bench for a double double isn't a better option than an old guy with a great BB Iq who hasn't got it anymore.

The point is that it looks to me that we made a mistake and took the weaker player at this point in time. Maybe if we had the option of looking at them both at comparable points in their career Dice would have been the better choice--but now? Maybe not.



There is no real reason to argue about this. This is a wait-and-see what happens when it's win or go home. You have your opinion and I have mine. I just so happens that your opinion is wrong. :toast

[mavsfan1000]

There are nights when Gooden just plain out sucks. I don't know why he is so streaky. A big man should be more reliable. But I've seen it where the other team goes on a big run once Gooden comes in the game. I think the problem is Gooden is relied on to be a big man that clogs the paint. That is not his strength. He is a power forward that needs a big man to do that for him.

[jimo2305]

i know i had posted here that ppl should stop downtalking gooden and that he was a good addition

[Bukefal]

hell no

Nice website!

Ziveli! :toast