Was Jesus wealthy?

[tlongII]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/wayoflife/12/25/RichJesus/index.html

(CNN) -- Each Christmas, Christians tell stories about the poor baby Jesus born in a lowly manger because there was no room in the inn.

But the Rev. C. Thomas Anderson, senior pastor of the Living Word Bible Church in Mesa, Arizona, preaches a version of the Christmas story that says baby Jesus wasn't so poor after all.

Anderson says Jesus couldn't have been poor because he received lucrative gifts -- gold, frankincense and myrrh -- at birth. Jesus had to be wealthy because the Roman soldiers who crucified him gambled for his expensive undergarments. Even Jesus' parents, Mary and Joseph, lived and traveled in style, he says.

"Mary and Joseph took a Cadillac to get to Bethlehem because the finest transportation of their day was a donkey," says Anderson. "Poor people ate their donkey. Only the wealthy used it as transportation."

Many Christians see Jesus as the poor, itinerant preacher who had "no place to lay his head." But as Christians gather around the globe this year to celebrate the birth of Jesus, another group of Christians are insisting that Jesus' beginnings weren't so humble.

They say that Jesus was never poor -- and neither should his followers be. Their claim is embedded in the doctrine known as the prosperity gospel, which holds that God rewards the faithful with financial prosperity and spiritual gifts.

A clash of gospels?

The prosperity gospel has attracted plenty of critics. But popular televangelists such as the late Oral Roberts, Kenneth Hagin and, today, Creflo Dollar have built megachurches and a global audience by equating piety with prosperity.

The prosperity gospel, however, clashes with the traditional depictions of Jesus as poor. That's because the traditional image of Jesus as destitute is wrong, says the Rev. Tom Brown, senior pastor of the Word of Life Church in El Paso, Texas.

The proof, he says, is scattered throughout the New Testament. One example: The 12th chapter of the Gospel of John says that Jesus had a treasurer, or a "keeper of the money bag."

"The last time I checked, poor people don't have treasurers to take care their money," says Brown, author of "Devil, Demons and Spiritual Warfare."

A debate over the economic status of Jesus may seem nonsensical to some. Does it really matter whether Jesus was rich or poor?

It matters to people like Luke Timothy Johnson, a prominent New Testament scholar and author. He says that a rich Jesus is a distortion of history and a threat to one of Christianity's core teachings: God's identification with the poor.

"If Jesus reveals God, there is something powerful about God appearing and working among the poor," says Johnson, a New Testament professor at Emory University's Candler School of Theology in Atlanta, Georgia.

"Jesus' lifestyle is not of one in a gated community or a corporate office," says Johnson, a former Benedictine monk. "You don't have to go through a security gate to get to Jesus. People touch him. He reached out and touched children. His accessibility is one of the most powerful messages of Christianity. In Jesus, God is with us, and the majority of us are poor."

'The poor won't follow the poor'

Some prosperity preachers extract a different message from the same biblical texts. Brown, the El Paso minister, says he doesn't say that Jesus was rich because he wants to give people an excuse to live self-indulgent lives. He wants people to understand that Jesus used his material and spiritual riches to help people -- and so should they.

Brown says Jesus' own words prove that he wasn't poor.

"Jesus said you will always have the poor, but you will not always have me," Brown says. "Jesus did not affirm himself as being part of the poor class...

"I believe he was the richest man on the face of the earth because he had God as his source," Brown says.

Jesus' wealth is evident even in the Gospel accounts of his execution, some pastors say.

The New Testament reports that Roman soldiers gambled for Jesus' clothing while he hung on the cross. They wouldn't gamble for Jesus' clothing unless it was expensive, Anderson says.

"I don't know anybody -- even Pamela Anderson -- that would have people gambling for his underwear," Anderson says. "That was some fine stuff he wore."

Anderson says Jesus never would have had disciples or a large following if he was poor. He would not have been able to command their respect.

"The poor will follow the rich, the rich will follow the rich, but the rich will never follow the poor," Anderson says.

Twisting scripture for personal gain?

Johnson, the Emory University New Testament professor, calls Anderson's argument "completely illogical."

"So Martin Luther King must have been a millionaire," he says. "Crowds followed Siddhartha Buddha and he was poor. And mobs followed Mahatma Gandhi, and Gandhi wore a diaper, for God's sake."

The argument that Jesus was wealthy because the soldiers gambled for his clothes at his crucifixion doesn't makes historical sense, either, says Johnson, author of "Among the Gentiles: Greco-Roman Religion and Christianity."

"Crucifixion was the sort of execution carried out for slaves and for rebels," Johnson says. "It wasn't an execution for wealthy people."

A Baylor University religion professor who specializes in the study of the poor in the Greco-Roman world also says there is "no way" that Jesus could be considered wealthy.

Bruce W. Longenecker says life in Jesus' world was brutal. About 90 percent of people lived in poverty. A famine or a bad crop could ruin a family. There was no middle class.

"In the ancient world, you were relatively poor or filthy rich, there's very little in-between," says Longenecker, author of "Engaging Economics: New Testament Scenarios and Early Christian Reception."

The New Testament is full of parables where Jesus actually condemns the rich and praises the poor, Longenecker says. In the sixth chapter of the Gospel of Luke, Jesus actually curses the rich, he says.

"The only way you can make Jesus into a rich man is by advocating torturous interpretations and by being wholly naive historically," Longenecker says.

Anderson, the Arizona pastor, doesn't buy that argument. He says the church has actually been damaged by teaching that Jesus was poor. God wants his followers to be rich, not for selfish gain, but to help others in need and spread the gospel.

When he first preached that Jesus wasn't poor to his church, Anderson says he "ruffled some feathers."

Now, he says, his church has 9,000 members and a global ministry.

"That's so pathetic, to say that Jesus was struggling alone in the dust and dirt," Anderson says. "That just makes no sense whatsoever. He was constantly in a state of wealth."

[leemajors]

Does it matter? Gautama Buddha was wealthy at one point.

[Suns Fan]

Is this a topic Phyzix lets us comment on?

[ChumpDumper]

How did he make all his money?

[tlongII]

I think it matters that the historical account of his life is accurate. Don't you?

[cherylsteele]

oWPjFj9dyoY

[MaNuMaNiAc]

what the fuck does it matter?? dude's been dead 2000 years...

[leemajors]

I think it matters that the historical account of his life is accurate. Don't you?

I thought it was supposed to be the message. Regardless, none of the Gospels were written until several centuries after his death, and multiple translations are involved. How accurate would you expect it to be?

[tlongII]

I thought it was supposed to be the message. Regardless, none of the Gospels were written until several centuries after his death, and multiple translations are involved. How accurate would you expect it to be?

We have pretty accurate accounts of the lives of his contemporaries that were historically important. Why would it be different for Jesus?

[DPG21920]

Nothing says living the high life like not eating a donkey.

[whottt]

There's no such thing as a successful poor preacher.

[balli]

That are few things on earth that make my stomach turn more than the idea of a 'prosperity gospel'. This dude's stance is about as evil and fucked up as it gets.

[monosylab1k]

We know how all the rich kids these days get pushed into the carpentry business.

[monosylab1k]

Rich Jesus = Rich people coming to church = Preacher gets paid.

That's what this is all about. They don't give a crap about how Jesus actually lived, they need a good story to fill their pockets.

[ploto]

"Foxes have dens and birds of the sky have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to rest His head."

Whatever the financial status of the family of Jesus, it is apparent from his ministry that a focus on material wealth runs counter to all that He taught. I just do not get it. Should not these ministers being more concerned about the spiritual gifts for which so many are in need?

[Frenzy]

That are few things on earth that make my stomach turn more than the idea of a 'prosperity gospel'. This dude's stance is about as evil and fucked up as it gets.



then you must love this guy.. :king

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk183/zebolsen/Prosperity/JoelOsteen.jpg

[Pero]

We have pretty accurate accounts of the lives of his contemporaries that were historically important. Why would it be different for Jesus?

Because Jesus at the time was pretty much a nobody.

[mookie2001]

Tshlong wealthy or Ellis family wealthy?

[BlackSwordsMan]

even if he was rich would could he buy back then? an extra mule?

[Dr. Gonzo]

jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
all of a sudden, i found myself in love with the world
so there was only one thing that i could do
was ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long

[benefactor]

The New Testament is full of parables where Jesus actually condemns the rich and praises the poor, Longenecker says. In the sixth chapter of the Gospel of Luke, Jesus actually curses the rich, he says.

"The only way you can make Jesus into a rich man is by advocating torturous interpretations and by being wholly naive historically," Longenecker says.

This pretty much sums it up. People who twist verses in the Bible to make it sound like Jesus was rich and he want's people to try to get rich are right up there with Jehovah's Witnesses. Jesus stated that the two greatest commandments were to love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. You don't need money to do either of these.

On a side note, the last name Longenecker is full of win. It's even funnier that he is a professor at a Baptist university.

[benefactor]

Matthew 19:24 (http://bible.cc/matthew/19-24.htm)


seems pretty straightforward to me
:tu

[Pero]

Jesus stated that the two greatest commandments were to love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself.

:lmao

[benefactor]

:lmao
?

[Pero]

?

I just find it funny because in that case there's practically no regular Christian following his core teachings today.

[PixelPusher]

It's really important to establish that Jesus was, in fact, wealthy. Otherwise, he wouldn't have had anything worthwhile to teach us.

AK7gI5lMB7M

[benefactor]

I just find it funny because in that case there's practically no regular Christian following his core teachings today.
Indeed. It's a big reason I have had trouble finding a church I'm comfortable in. Churches are so caught up in theological details and taking care of their own that they have forgotten what Jesus was really about.

[Jesus]

what the fuck does it matter?? dude's been dead 2000 years...

Wrong again.......

[exstatic]

"Foxes have dens and birds of the sky have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to rest His head."

Whatever the financial status of the family of Jesus, it is apparent from his ministry that a focus on material wealth runs counter to all that He taught. I just do not get it. Should not these ministers being more concerned about the spiritual gifts for which so many are in need?

Teaching camel/eye of needle parable = get fired

Teaching "prosperity gospel" = get paid

It's really that simple. The extremely wealthy don't want to hear that they have slim chances to get into heaven.

[ashbeeigh]

People will argue the Bible to death. In the end, interpret it the way you want. Have faith in what you yourself believe in.

[boutons_deux]

The scammers hawking the prosperity gospel as this asshole from AZ does have as their primary goal to make themselves prosperous, pulling the rabble's (purse) strings as if they were(are?) sheeple dumb enough to be fleeced by prosperity pastors.

Actually, the sheeple minds are fertile grounds for the prosperity gospel, having been plowed and fertilized with undending, pervasive horseshit from corporations.

[baseline bum]

It's really important to establish that Jesus was, in fact, wealthy. Otherwise, he wouldn't have had anything worthwhile to teach us.

AK7gI5lMB7M

:lmao Supply-side Jesus is classic! :rollin

[Venti Quattro]

How did he make all his money?

Through his gospel sessions and fellowships.

[z0sa]

Very simple. Big donations come from rich people. Those donations are lost if richers don't feel like their soul gets re-saved every Sunday - and it's up to the preachers to make em feel that way.

[ChumpDumper]

Matthew 19:24 (http://bible.cc/matthew/19-24.htm)


seems pretty straightforward to meOnly richers had camels and needles back then, so this supports the prosperity gospel.

[ChumpDumper]

Through his gospel sessions and fellowships.So he was a panhandler.

Cool.

[PixelPusher]

How did he make all his money?

Wine, loaves and fish derivatives.

[Solid D]

The comments by the man in the article are pure garbage. First of all, in the Matthew (Chap. 2) account of Jesus' birth, it says:
1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."

These men brought treasures to worship what they thought would be an earthly KING. Their gifts weren't given because the baby was actually rich, they were given because the givers thought they were coming to worship a KING that would inherit an earthly kingdom.

Secondly, Anderson says that Joseph and Mary took a Cadillac, a donkey, to Bethlehem. None of the 4 gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John) have any reference to how Joseph and Mary got to Bethlehem. The birth accounts of Jesus are found in Matthew and Luke and there is no mention of the method of transportation. They had to register for the census imposed by Caesar Augustus in Joseph's family's home town of Bethlehem. People assume Mary got there by some means other than walking, simply because she was pregnant and probably needed a ride.

Eating a donkey because you are poor? Please! Even if Joseph and Mary were to have travelled with a donkey, donkeys and oxen were beasts of burden and not a sign of wealth by any means. Horses and chariots were closer to a mode of transportation for the wealthy than a donkey was.

Why go any farther with the argument? Anderson's first two points are bogus.

[Solid D]

I see that Anderson shows that he has a PhD from Friends International Christian University. I did a little checking and found that, for instance, in Texas...Friends International Christian University is on the list of "Institutions Whose Degrees are Illegal to Use in Texas" http://www.thecb.state.tx.us/apps/consumerinfo/notx.cfm

Mr. Anderson may be letting the point he is trying to make on behalf of Christian prosperity get in the way of his personal Bible study time.

[angel_luv]

Jesus came to earth to reconcile us to the Father and make abundant life available to everyone who would receive it. John 10:10.

The Bible says that the love of money is the root of all evil. The Bible does not say money is evil but that the LOVE of it is.

Jesus made it clear that God provides for His children and promised that if we will seek first God's kindgom that things would be added unto us. Matthew 6:33

No one wants to take advice from someone who is doing poorly.
I think that God wants His people to prosper so that we will 1) be equipped with the practical means to help those in need and 2) so that Believers will stand out in the crowd. I believe God wants Believers to live in a way that people will take notice of Believer's lives and ask questions- thus opening the door for Believers to witness to the unsaved.

[Sportcamper]

Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."

Matthew 8:20

[angel_luv]

" For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." 1 Timothy 6:10

I did not include text in my first post.

[Drachen]

Jesus came to earth to reconcile us to the Father and make abundant life available to everyone who would receive it. John 10:10.

The Bible says that the love of money is the root of all evil. The Bible does not say money is evil but that the LOVE of it is.

Jesus made it clear that God provides for His children and promised that if we will seek first God's kindgom that things would be added unto us. Matthew 6:33

No one wants to take advice from someone who is doing poorly.
I think that God wants His people to prosper so that we will 1) be equipped with the practical means to help those in need and 2) so that Believers will stand out in the crowd. I believe God wants Believers to live in a way that people will take notice of Believer's lives and ask questions- thus opening the door for Believers to witness to the unsaved.

Angel, A perfectly content poor person is far more intriguing than an extravagantly dressed rich person. This idea that God wants believers to live in a way that others will take notice is just ridiculous. The only people that will be attracted by this are the same people who will flip God off when the next dazzling thing comes along. On the other hand, if there were those who, despite the idea that a rich person should not follow a poor person, listened to a poor man because his ideas made sense, and his tranquility flowed out of him, they would be far more likely to stick with this person. Case in point, When John Hagee, Joel Olstein, etc. etc. pass away, or at least out of social conciousness, I seriously doubt that I, or many others will even remember their name. Mother Teresa on the other hand won't slip my mind as long as I live. Why? Because she went about doing her work whether she had money or not, never made a big show out of what she was doing, yet made more of an impact on the entire world than any of these guys could ever hope to make even though they have access to many multiples of the amount of money that she had.

[I. Hustle]

Only richers had camels and needles back then, so this supports the prosperity gospel.

Islam
The Quran uses this phrase to express the idea of something that is unlikely to happen:

To those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance, no opening will there be of the gates of heaven, nor will they enter the garden, until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle: Such is Our reward for those in sin. Al-Araf (The Heights) 7:40

[angel_luv]

I appreciate your point about Mother Theresa, but even Mother Theresa is in need of physical supplies in order to aid those she is reaching out to- food, blankets, medicine.


You cannot feed the poor without funding. Habitat for Humanity cannot build houses without funding. Scholarships for at risk youths are made possible by donations.

It is the nature of all mankind, whether devoted to God or atheist, to aim to succeed and to work hard to accumulate wealth.
I would rather see large sums of money in the hands of those who desire first to serve God and their fellowman than to have it go only to self absorbed types who care only about themselves and who will waste both the money and their lives.

[Drachen]

I appreciate your point about Mother Theresa, but even Mother Theresa is in need of physical supplies in order to aid those she is reaching out to- food, blankets, medicine.


You cannot feed the poor without funding. Habitat for Humanity cannot build houses without funding. Scholarships for at risk youths are made possible by donations.

It is the nature of all mankind, whether devoted to God or atheist, to aim to succeed and to work hard to accumulate wealth.
I would rather see large sums of money in the hands of those who desire first to serve God and their fellowman than to have it go only to self absorbed types who care only about themselves and who will waste both the money and their lives.

None of the programs that you mentioned accumulate wealth. Mother Teresa never accumulated wealth. It is this accumulation of wealth that I have a problem with. I would rather see large sums of money leaving the hands of those who desire first to serve their fellow man.

Oh, as far as your "its in man's nature to . . ." comment, it would seem that many of religion's rules run counter to man's nature for (what I believe) to be his own good.

[I. Hustle]

WOW AL is into the prosperity doctrine?!

[Drachen]

WOW AL is into the prosperity doctrine?!

surprised me too.

[angel_luv]

None of the programs that you mentioned accumulate wealth. Mother Teresa never accumulated wealth. It is this accumulation of wealth that I have a problem with. I would rather see large sums of money leaving the hands of those who desire first to serve their fellow man.


What I meant in regards to non profit programs is that people with profits- I.E. someone with money to spare, a person of abundance- has to donate in order for them to function.

The Bible teaches that when you give it shall be given unto you, so I think it is fitting that people who are blessing others are also blessed themselves.


"Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again." Luke 6:38

[Drachen]

What I meant in regards to non profit programs is that people with profits- I.E. someone with money to spare, a person of abundance- has to donate in order for them to function.

The Bible teaches that when you give it shall be given unto you, so I think it is fitting that people who are blessing others are also blessed themselves.


"Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again." Luke 6:38


Ok, but that supports the donation of wealth rather than the accumulation thereof. Also, many of those mentioned in this thread (Olsteen, Hagee, etc). Are wildly rich even after donations of their wealth. Their sole source of money is the donations of those in their congregations which could go toward helping the poor. In these cases wealth is being accumulated rather than going to help those in need.

[Pero]

It is the nature of all mankind, whether devoted to God or atheist, to aim to succeed and to work hard to accumulate wealth.


Did you read this in the capitalist edition of the Bible? :lol

[Drachen]

Did you read this in the capitalist edition of the Bible? :lol

Ill admit, that this is slightly funny, but I agree to the point that it's in man's nature to strive for success. The definition of success, however, is different from person to person, though here in the states (and in many places), the tangible definition of success is in your bank account.

When I was in high school, I did an internship at the VW plant in Puebla, MX and one of the guys working in my office was part of the rotary club and was giving a speech in english about the definition of happiness. He wanted to run it by me, so he started out asking me how I defined happiness. I thought for a while, then told him I believed the definition of happiness was to be content. That knocked him off guard and he told me that couldn't be true, then gave up as an example those people living in huts on the outskirts of Mexico city with nothing but their god and few material possesions. I told him that if they were content with where they were at in life, and that was all that they needed or wanted, then I could see them being happy. I personally would not be happy in such a situation, but they might be. I further explained that contentedness does not mean resting on your laurels. Some people are completely content meeting challenge after challenge. So the constant flux in their life brings them happiness.

[PixelPusher]

Did you read this in the capitalist edition of the Bible? :lol
They're still in the process of rewriting and editing that version of Bible.

http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2009/10/conservatizing-the-bible.html

[angel_luv]

Ok, but that supports the donation of wealth rather than the accumulation thereof. Also, many of those mentioned in this thread (Olsteen, Hagee, etc). Are wildly rich even after donations of their wealth.

Which supports what I am telling you: You cannot outgive God.

More amazing to me than the individual success of men like Pastors Olsteen, Hagee, and T.D. Jakes is that the people in their congregations are greatly blessed and successful as well.
The Biblical principles by which they live are not just benefiting the pastors, but are helping everyone who will adhere to them.

It is just like in the days of Israel before Pharoah would listen to Moses and release the Israelites.

God's people had light while everyone else was left in the dark.

Exodus 10:23- " They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings."

[angel_luv]

Did you read this in the capitalist edition of the Bible? :lol

:lol Drachen knew what I meant, as I suspect did you. :)

[Drachen]

Which supports what I am telling you: You cannot outgive God.

More amazing to me than the individual success of men like Pastors Olsteen, Hagee, and T.D. Jakes is that the people in their congregations are greatly blessed and successful as well.
The Biblical principles by which they live are not just benefiting the pastors, but are helping everyone who will adhere to them.

It is just like in the days of Israel before Pharoah would listen to Moses and release the Israelites.

God's people had light while everyone else was left in the dark.

Exodus 10:23- " They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings."


This will be an unresolvable point of contention between the two of us. You are (in my opinion), putting the cart before the horse. Those who attend these churches are wealthy, and live extravagant lifestyles. The normal doctrines state that perhaps some of that extravagance could be forgone in order to help your fellow man. This makes them feel bad because they are unwilling to change. If they go to a church where the leader of that church is taking home over a million dollars a year and preaches (through word or deed) that it is ok to live such a lifestyle and that god wants the followers to lead extravagant lifestyles as an example of what can be had, that person is going to stay at that church because they feel comfortable. Even if all other things were equal (the teachings, etc.) which I believe they are not, I would rather my money be donated to a church where the preacher takes enough to live comfortably (30-50k) every year and sends the rest to help those who don't have those means, than to go to a church where the preacher takes enough to feed a small town for a year for him/herself then send the rest to those who don't have those means.

[Solid D]

While I agree with the notion that a person cannot outgive God, I do question Mr. C. Thomas Anderson and his motives. The faux Biblical justifications he is using for the points in the article are way off base, in my opinion.

I've already addressed his erroneous reasoning regarding the Magi's gifts to the "King of the Jews" and the donkey that was never mentioned in the Biblical accounts of Jesus birth. I would also submit that the more likely reason Roman soldiers were casting lots for the clothes of Jesus was that Jesus had been dressed by King Herod in one of his "elegant robes" in order to mock him. That elegant robe Herod dressed Jesus in was probably quite valuable.

8 When Herod saw Jesus, he was greatly pleased, because for a long time he had been wanting to see him. From what he had heard about him, he hoped to see him perform some miracle. 9He plied him with many questions, but Jesus gave him no answer. 10 The chief priests and the teachers of the law were standing there, vehemently accusing him. 11 Then Herod and his soldiers ridiculed and mocked him. Dressing him in an elegant robe, they sent him back to Pilate. (Luke 23 8-11)

[Drachen]

While I agree with the notion that a person cannot outgive God, I do question Mr. C. Thomas Anderson and his motives. The faux Biblical justifications he is using for the points in the article are way off base, in my opinion.

I've already addressed his erroneous reasoning regarding the Magi's gifts to the "King of the Jews" and the donkey that was never mentioned in the Biblical accounts of Jesus birth. I would also submit that the more likely reason Roman soldiers were casting lots for the clothes of Jesus was that Jesus had been dressed by King Herod in one of his "elegant robes" in order to mock him. That elegant robe Herod dressed Jesus in was probably quite valuable.

8 When Herod saw Jesus, he was greatly pleased, because for a long time he had been wanting to see him. From what he had heard about him, he hoped to see him perform some miracle. 9He plied him with many questions, but Jesus gave him no answer. 10 The chief priests and the teachers of the law were standing there, vehemently accusing him. 11 Then Herod and his soldiers ridiculed and mocked him. Dressing him in an elegant robe, they sent him back to Pilate. (Luke 23 8-11)


Damn, good pickup there Solid.

[angel_luv]

Fair enough.

In the end, only God knows everyone's entire situation and only He can judge the intent of peoples' hearts and the true merit of their actions.

My faith has been encouraged by both Pastor Joel Osteen and especially by Pastor T.D. Jakes, so I will always be grateful to the two of them.

[angel_luv]

I appreciate your insight in regard to Jesus' robe, Solid D. I had never thought of that before.

[angel_luv]

The comments by the man in the article are pure garbage. First of all, in the Matthew (Chap. 2) account of Jesus' birth, it says:
1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."

These men brought treasures to worship what they thought would be an earthly KING. Their gifts weren't given because the baby was actually rich, they were given because the givers thought they were coming to worship a KING that would inherit an earthly kingdom.




I thought the man in the article was saying due to the gifts from the Magi, that Jesus had wealth- due to the monetary value of the gifts.

I didn't read the statement to mean that Jesus was given gifts because he was already wealthy.

But perhaps I misunderstood.

[Duff McCartney]

While I don't believe in any of this bullshit, I do respect the hell out of Joel Osteen. Not for his doctrine, but because he's had to defend himself as a Christian preacher for saying that Jesus is not the only way to god, and that there are many paths to god and salvation. He caught an enormous amount of flak from fellow Christians.

That's nothing than what most Christian preachers would say, and I respect him for saying that.

[Solid D]

I thought the man in the article was saying due to the gifts from the Magi, that Jesus had wealth- due to the monetary value of the gifts.

I didn't read the statement to mean that Jesus was given gifts because he was already wealthy.

But perhaps I misunderstood.

You may be right about that, angel_luv. I had read a couple of other articles written about Anderson that made me think in those terms.

I'm sure Joseph was able to provide for his family since he was a carpenter, but Jesus' entire premise in his ministry was not based on building up a treasure here on earth. I mean, Jesus actually told some of his disciples, as well as, the rich man who had kept all of the commandments since he was a boy and otherwise lived a good life, that they needed to sell ALL of their possessions and to give to the poor (Luke 12:32-34, Mark 10:20-22).

When Jesus sent out the seventy to various towns, he told them not to take a purse or a bag or sandals and then later he reminded them of how God had provided and given them what they needed. Jesus' ministry was not based on building up a treasure here on earth, while Anderson has morphed that ministry into saying things like this: "Dr. Anderson says the Body of Christ has learned to tithe and give offerings and to expect God to meet our every need, yet we only have enough for the day. We must learn how to make money enough for the future as well as today. God is not going to drop abundance out of heaven, and we can’t pray for someone to just give us money. We need to learn the attributes, qualities and skills to become wealthy." http://www.cbn.com/700club/guests/bios/CTAnderson112006.aspx

[Das Texan]

No man of God i.e. a preacher should live in the Dominion or any other multi million dollar community when your livelihood is derived from the people you preach to. They preach that they are giving to help out the poor and those that need the help, not for the new BMW for the preacher and his wife.

Hagee is a piece of shit anyway, but thats another story for another day.

[lefty]

Who cares if Jesusdenazareth was wealthy?

He's a rockstar anyway

[boutons_deux]

Debating on the literal accuracy of minutiae of the (allegorical, 100s-of-years-after-the-fact) Bible is silliness-on-earth.

The entire Bible-is-literally-true scam is just a power play by pastors to solidify their own roles as (self-appointed, self-aggrandizing, self-enriching) authoritative interpreters of the Bible, scare-mongering dictators of what their sheeple should think and how they should act.

[I. Hustle]

No man of God i.e. a preacher should live in the Dominion or any other multi million dollar community when your livelihood is derived from the people you preach to. They preach that they are giving to help out the poor and those that need the help, not for the new BMW for the preacher and his wife.

Hagee is a piece of shit anyway, but thats another story for another day.

I agree and disagree with this. Who is to say exactly where the money comes from? Sure it may hve started off as from his congregation but many of these Pastors are businessmen. They write books, sell copies of their sermons, start businesses, invest, etc.

Some Pastors had money before going into ministry. I don't agree with the ones that buy luxury cars and multimillion dollar homes when the whole of their income is from their congregation BUT if they work hard and find other ways to keep money coming in then why shouldn't they enjoy it?


I get upset about this stuff sometimes since I am a PK.

[I. Hustle]

Debating on the literal accuracy of minutiae of the (allegorical, 100s-of-years-after-the-fact) Bible is silliness-on-earth.

The entire Bible-is-literally-true scam is just a power play by pastors to solidify their own roles as (self-appointed, self-aggrandizing, self-enriching) authoritative interpreters of the Bible, scare-mongering dictators of what their sheeple should think and how they should act.

I find it funny that people like you lump ministers together but then get upset when you are lumped in a group.

[angel_luv]

While I don't believe in any of this bullshit, I do respect the hell out of Joel Osteen. Not for his doctrine, but because he's had to defend himself as a Christian preacher for saying that Jesus is not the only way to god, and that there are many paths to god and salvation. He caught an enormous amount of flak from fellow Christians.

That's nothing than what most Christian preachers would say, and I respect him for saying that.

I have watched many of his church services on television and never have had any indication that Pastor Joel Osteen believed like that. Do you have any quotes from Pastor Joel Osteen to that effect which you can post?

[SAGambler]

No man of God i.e. a preacher should live in the Dominion or any other multi million dollar community when your livelihood is derived from the people you preach to. They preach that they are giving to help out the poor and those that need the help, not for the new BMW for the preacher and his wife.

Hagee is a piece of shit anyway, but thats another story for another day.

Boy you said a mouthful there. Talk about a hypocrite. How anyone buys his bullshit is beyond me.

"That's not MY new Mercedes. That's GODS new Mercedes. He just loaned it to me."

[Duff McCartney]

I have watched many of his church services on television and never have had any indication that Pastor Joel Osteen believed like that. Do you have any quotes from Pastor Joel Osteen to that effect which you can post?

"Osteen has received much criticism from many in the Evangelical community. After a 2005 appearance on Larry King Live, he was accused of not clearly affirming that Jesus Christ is the only way a person can reach Heaven. He stated repeatedly that only God knows a person's heart, but that as a believer in the Christian faith he believes in an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ."

He did later try to backtrack, but I'm pretty sure the only reason he did was because of pressure and not because he truly believes it. That's why I respect what he said.

[boutons_deux]

"you are lumped in a group"

I don't get upset, I laugh the ignorance, like yours.

There are plenty of sincere, authentic, intelligent, emotionally adult Christians. Some are my best friends. :)

[I. Hustle]

"you are lumped in a group"

I don't get upset, I laugh the ignorance, like yours.

There are plenty of sincere, authentic, intelligent, emotionally adult Christians. Some are my best friends. :)

Ignorance like mine? How so?
I was talking about this

"The entire Bible-is-literally-true scam is just a power play by pastors to solidify their own roles as (self-appointed, self-aggrandizing, self-enriching) authoritative interpreters of the Bible, scare-mongering dictators of what their sheeple should think and how they should act."

My dad is a Pastor and you lumped him in that group. I was talking about him and not myself.

[benefactor]

It's kinda pointless to argue this...as one who disagrees will probably get nowhere with someone who is sold on the idea(no pun intended) that Jesus wants all of us to be rich. It all goes back to the ability to twist the Bible and make it sound however you want it to sound.

I have thrown a lot of theology out the window. Occasionally I will still get sucked in to a discussion, but overall I stay out of them because they are fruitless. IMO, churches should concentrate on two things...finding ways to reach out the community in practical ways and finding ways to help those within the church connect with one another so that no one has to bear any sort of burden alone.

[ploto]

It is the nature of all mankind, whether devoted to God or atheist, to aim to succeed and to work hard to accumulate wealth.

I do not agree with this at all. My definition of success has nothing to do with the accumulation of wealth.

[Drachen]

I do not agree with this at all. My definition of success has nothing to do with the accumulation of wealth.

lol, read my post in response to this.

[z0sa]

Debating on the literal accuracy of minutiae of the (allegorical, 100s-of-years-after-the-fact) Bible is silliness-on-earth.

The entire Bible-is-literally-true scam is just a power play by pastors to solidify their own roles as (self-appointed, self-aggrandizing, self-enriching) authoritative interpreters of the Bible, scare-mongering dictators of what their sheeple should think and how they should act.

Lee Strobel's book, The Case for Christ, easily dispels your crackpot opinion-asserted-as-fact.

[ploto]

"Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again." Luke 6:38

This is what comes before the verse you quoted. Read it in context.


"Blessed are you who are poor, for the kingdom of God is yours.

Blessed are you who are now hungry, for you will be satisfied. Blessed are you who are now weeping, for you will laugh.

Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude and insult you, and denounce your name as evil on account of the Son of Man.

Rejoice and leap for joy on that day! Behold, your reward will be great in heaven. For their ancestors treated the prophets in the same way.

But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.

But woe to you who are filled now, for you will be hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will grieve and weep.

Woe to you when all speak well of you, for their ancestors treated the false prophets in this way.

But to you who hear I say, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

Bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

To the person who strikes you on one cheek, offer the other one as well, and from the person who takes your cloak, do not withhold even your tunic.

Give to everyone who asks of you, and from the one who takes what is yours do not demand it back.

Do to others as you would have them do to you.

For if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them.

And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same.

If you lend money to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit (is) that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, and get back the same amount.

But rather, love your enemies and do good to them, and lend expecting nothing back; then your reward will be great and you will be children of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.

Be merciful, just as (also) your Father is merciful.

"Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven.

Most of what you have quoted is about spiritual rewards.

The notion that wealth signifies one is living according to God's plan is a large part of what Jesus refuted. The treasures one is to accumulate are the heavenly variety, not the worldly ones.

[I. Hustle]

http://www.forumspile.com/Misc-OhSnap.jpg

[tlongII]

Wow, this thread has reached 4 pages! Who'da thunk it?

[Drachen]

Wow, this thread has reached 4 pages! Who'da thunk it?

Two reasons.

1. It has Jesus in the title

B. It has nothing to do with the Trailblazers, though that is not an issue.

[TDMVPDPOY]

in the bibile how come it never says what jesus family and 12 disciples did for a living to get by day-to-day

wait jesus had a hax ability that turns stuff into something.....

[Fabbs]

I see that Anderson shows that he has a PhD from Friends International Christian University. I did a little checking and found that, for instance, in Texas...Friends International Christian University is on the list of "Institutions Whose Degrees are Illegal to Use in Texas" http://www.thecb.state.tx.us/apps/consumerinfo/notx.cfm

Mr. Anderson may be letting the point he is trying to make on behalf of Christian prosperity get in the way of his personal Bible study time.
nicely done.

[angel_luv]

I do not agree with this at all. My definition of success has nothing to do with the accumulation of wealth.


I don't mean that everyone is out to make millions of dollars. You are right that not everyone ( myself included) considers money to be the number one indicator of a prosperous life. When I said wealth, I should have said prosperous- meaning that everyone wants to live a full, happy, profitable life.


For example, you might seek wealth in that you own more than just the bare necessities.
Consider: You could physically survive without a personal computer and internet. You could physically survive without going to see the Raptors play. Yet you enjoy those things in your life and I believe that God wants you to.

God is a father who takes delight in bringing joy to His children, just as human men want to give non necessity good things to theirs- things like cars, Christmas presents, vacations to Disneyworld, etc.

The Bible says that all the world is God's. ( Psalm 50:12) and that every good and perfect gift is from God. ( James 1;17)

God is an extravagant, all powerful, all loving God.
This is the same God who paved the streets of Heaven with gold and made its gates out of jewels.


And so why should it surprise people that God would generously give to His people enough for them to live in prosperity even as they help their neighbors?

And why would it shock you that God takes pleasure in giving His children their dream car, college scholarships, and fulfilling the dreams in their hearts?

"If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask Him!" Matthew 7:11

[boutons_deux]

"God takes pleasure"

Ah, you're one of the numerous conceited ones who claims to know the mind of God? :lol

[angel_luv]

I firmly believe that as Christians we are called to minister and to give generously both financially and in love to those around us.

And as firmly as I believe that, I also believe that we should also joyfully expect God to give good gifts to us who ask because He promised to.

[angel_luv]

"God takes pleasure"

Ah, you're one of the numerous conceited ones who claims to know the mind of God? :lol


It is not conceit at all.

It is confidence because through Christ I have a personal relationship with God and can testify to you, from a lifetime of personal experince, of the great goodness of God.

God clearly proved His heart to give to the world by sending us His son Jesus.

"He who did not spare his own Son, but gave Him up for us all—how will He not also, along with Him, graciously give us all things?" Romans 8:32

[I. Hustle]

I don't agree with the prosperity doctrine but I do believe that it's not wrong to live comfortably. I think there is a certain line that shouldn't be crossed but just because a preacher drives a Benz or a Cadillac so what? I just don't agree with the preachers who say that if you are not wealthy or making x amount of dollars you are in sin.

[I. Hustle]

"God takes pleasure"

Ah, you're one of the numerous conceited ones who claims to know the mind of God? :lol

Psalms 35:27
"Let them shout for joy and rejoice, who favor my vindication;
And let them say continually, "The LORD be magnified,
Who delights in the prosperity of His servant."

[Oh, Gee!!]

I think the danger with the so-called "prosperity gospel" is that it could encourage followers to live beyond their means.

[I. Hustle]

I think the danger with the so-called "prosperity gospel" is that it could encourage followers to live beyond their means.

I agree. People would start wanting to keep up with the Jones' in church. Wanting to prove they are just as holy.

[angel_luv]

I think the danger with the so-called "prosperity gospel" is that it could encourage followers to live beyond their means.

That is a good point.

Just like it says in Matthew 25:21, after we are faithful with a little, then comes the increase.
"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!' "

I really appreciate how my pastor always instructs us to not give out of emotionalism or any sort of pressure because my pastor never wants us to wake up Monday morning and regret what we put in the offering plate on Sunday.

My pastor is always so encouraging- always preaches the Word and gives godly practical advice. I am very blessed.

[benefactor]

Must...resist...urge...to...debate............

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Solid D crushed this thread out of the yard.






For a lot of televangelsists and pastors of the megachurches, the monetary prosperity they seek is for themselves. Churches aren't required to file a federal tax return and don't have to disclose how much of the congregation's money goes to the pastor and his key disciples. The amount of money some of these guys personally pull out of their churches is shocking. But as long as the sheep keep filling the basket every Sunday it's all good. And maybe they're worth it...who knows. If you go to church on Sunday to be entertained, wouldn't the star of the show deserve most of the gate? That's essentially what you get with these megachurches, a good show. So if a church brings in $20M per year in revenue, I guess a 25% cut to the featured entertainer isn't too extreme.

[benefactor]

Solid D crushed this thread out of the yard.






For a lot of televangelsists and pastors of the megachurches, the monetary prosperity they seek is for themselves. Churches aren't required to file a federal tax return and don't have to disclose how much of the congregation's money goes to the pastor and his key disciples. The amount of money some of these guys personally pull out of their churches is shocking. But as long as the sheep keep filling the basket every Sunday it's all good. And maybe they're worth it...who knows. If you go to church on Sunday to be entertained, wouldn't the star of the show deserve most of the gate? That's essentially what you get with these megachurches, a good show. So if a church brings in $20M per year in revenue, I guess a 25% cut to the featured entertainer isn't too extreme.
I hate all your show and pretense
The hypocrisy of your praise
The hypocrisy of your festivals
I hate all your show
Away with your noisy worship
Away with your noisy hymns
I stomp on my ears when you're singing 'em
I hate all your show

Instead let there be a flood of justice
An endless procession of righteous living, living
Instead let there be a flood of justice
Instead of a show

Your eyes are closed when you're praying
You sing right along with the band
You shine up your shoes for services
There's blood on your hands
You turned your back on the homeless
And the ones that don't fit in your plan
Quit playing religion games
There's blood on your hands

Instead let there be a flood of justice
An endless procession of righteous living, living
Instead let there be a flood of justice
Instead of a show
I hate all your show

Let's argue this out
If your sins are blood red
Let's argue this out
You'll be one of the clouds
Let's argue this out
Quit fooling around
Give love to the ones who can't love at all
Give hope to the ones who got no hope at all
Stand up for the ones who can't stand at all, all
I hate all your show
I hate all your show
I hate all your show
I hate all your show

Instead let there be a flood of justice
An endless procession of righteous living, living
Instead let there be a flood of justice
Instead of a show
I hate all your show

[I. Hustle]

lol @ songs

[benefactor]

lol @ songs
It's one of my favorites. :)

[Stump]

The posts on this thread are for the most part very civil and thought out for a religious thread, which is pretty surprising. If only the NBA forum could be follow suit.

Angel_luv, I agree with you to a degree, but I kind of feel like you miss the point a bit with all of this. Yes, money can be a useful tool and Christians shouldn’t burn a stack of money that they happen to receive. No, it shouldn’t be a requirement for Christians to take a vow of poverty and the enjoyment of certain commodities is fine. I understand that it’s impossible to clearly draw the line of where excessiveness begins.

Ultimately it comes down to what one’s priorities are. Success and prosperity are fine, but if these things are one’s primary goal, then there is a serious problem, and these preachers are very much guilty. They’re not only helping their congregations to rationalize out their selfish behavior; they’re also protecting their own selfish interests.

This attitude is not what the Bible teaches. At all.

[angel_luv]

True, Stump.
My points are only worthwhile if the person seeks Jesus first. Matthew 6:33.

[JoeChalupa]

I'm wealthy and rich but not in monetary terms.

[MiamiHeat]

He may not have been financially wealthy...

but He had friends. Many friends.

and that, is priceless.

Amen.

[4down]

:lmao


Nothing says living the high life like not eating a donkey.

I'm not one to decry prosperity either, but I don't think a lack of material wealth would be an indicator that God doesn't like you. The rich Jesus idea seems to be a justification of holding on to all the wealth you can. It seems to be a different type of morality.

I can't remember exactly where ut was written, but I remember C.S. Lewis writing in one of his books that people should give just enough that they would start to worry about their own well being. Many would say that is too much risk to take on, and others would say they are already at that point. I don't know how far I would take that myself, to be honest, but I do think there is wisdom in giving to that point. Not saying anyone should be forced to give, either - it should be a willing choice.

[ploto]

And why would it shock you that God takes pleasure in giving His children their dream car, college scholarships, and fulfilling the dreams in their hearts?
The vital gifts I give my child are not monetary in nature, nor are the most important gifts I get from God. They are compassion, understanding, mercy, and forgiveness.

I don't pray to God to give me stuff; I have enough stuff. I pray for Him to make me content in all things.

"I have learned, in whatever situation I find myself, to be self-sufficient. I know indeed how to live in humble circumstances; I know also how to live with abundance. In every circumstance and in all things I have learned the secret of being well fed and of going hungry, of living in abundance and of being in need. I have the strength for everything through him who empowers me."

As for a college scholarship or a car, I teach my child to work for those.


"If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask Him!" Matthew 7:11

The beginning of Matthew Chapter 7


Stop judging, that you may not be judged.

For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you.

Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye?

How can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove that splinter from your eye,' while the wooden beam is in your eye?

You hypocrite, remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother's eye.

The measure is not financial giving but the giving of mercy to others.

[angel_luv]

I don't pray to God to give me stuff; I have enough stuff. I pray for Him to make me content in all things.

Yes, and all the stuff you have came from God. So without you even praying for material blessings, God gave them to you.





As for a college scholarship or a car, I teach my child to work for those.

And God gave man the ability to work so again, the source of everything we are and acquire is God.




Deuteronomy 8:18- But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.


You cannot take God out of the equation. God most certainly gives.
The question is how much do you believe God is willing to give you? What is your measure of faith? What are you willing to ask for?

Granted if God answers a request, " No" as He sometimes does, one's faith and contentment level should not vary.

But, just as loving parents are not offended by their child's desires of and request to them, I am confident God does not mind us asking for material things- so long as we make sure to seek relationship with Him first.

[ploto]

What is your measure of faith? What are you willing to ask for?
This is the whole problem with the prosperity Gospel-- trying to question a person's faith who does not use it to ask for material wealth. I have more important issues to address with God than the kind of car I drive. This notion contributes to all these people who buy things they can not afford because some preacher tells them they should have faith that God will provide.

What am I willing to ask for-- mercy, forgiveness, peace, joy, friendship, patience, perseverance, love, gentleness, meekness, wisdom, understanding, and courage.


But, just as loving parents are not offended by their child's desires of and request to them, I am confident God does not mind us asking for material things.

Again, I do not agree, My kid knows better than to ask me to give him certain things. I have raised him not to be materialistic. We have higher priorities. I am far more concerned with peace in my heart than money in my bank account. I believe it cheapens the Grace of God to focus on it as if He were Santa Claus and you are some kid asking Him to bring you stuff. I need "things" from God that are far more important than the ones that money can buy. I choose to spend my time asking Him to help me acquire those.

[angel_luv]

This is the whole problem with the prosperity Gospel-- trying to question a person's faith who does not use it to ask for material wealth. I have more important issues to address with God than the kind of car I drive. This notion contributes to all these people who buy things they can not afford because some preacher tells them they should have faith that God will provide.

What am I willing to ask for-- mercy, forgiveness, peace, joy, friendship, patience, perseverance, love, gentleness, meekness, wisdom, understanding, and courage.



Again, I do not agree, My kid knows better than to ask me to give him certain things. I have raised him not to be materialistic. We have higher priorities. I am far more concerned with peace in my heart than money in my bank account. I believe it cheapens the Grace of God to focus on it as if He were Santa Claus and you are some kid asking Him to bring you stuff. I need "things" from God that are far more important than the ones that money can buy. I choose to spend my time asking Him to help me acquire those.

I can see why the Bible tells us to each work out our own salvation.

Thank you for sharing your views with me. Though we do not agree, I appreciate the benefit of your perspective.

One part of your response struck a cord with me:


My kid knows better than to ask me to give him certain things.

I do not understand this mindset in a parent. My parents, my mom especially, were firm in how they raised me and particular about what they allowed, but I never once felt restricted in what I could ask them or request from them.
And for that, I am very thankful.

As someone who plans to be a parent, I would feel so sad to think there was anything my kids did not feel at liberty to broach with me, though I would also hope to raise them to handle disappointment well when faced with it.

I might not be able or willing to give my future kids everything they want, but I would always want to know what they desired, if only to know them better.

[TDMVPDPOY]

how many ppl do you know that owns a donkey compared to jesus?

[ploto]

I do not understand this mindset in a parent. My parents, my mom especially, were firm in how they raised me and particular about what they allowed, but I never once felt restricted in what I could ask them or request from them.
My child gets all the love and support he needs, but there are many material things he does not need and would never ask me for. He sees how I live my life, and he has the decency and respect not to ask for things to be handed to him. Likewise, I would have never gone to my parents asking for certain material things when I saw how they sacrificed for me and my siblings. If my son comes home telling me about one of his teachers who supports a foundation that raises money to educate kids in Africa, and he asks, then I am happy to give him money. If a group of kids are raising funds to buy goats for a village, I am happy to contribute and he knows that. He would never come home and say, "I want an iPhone."

He knows the difference between needs and wants. In your own passage from Matthew, Jesus uses the analogy of a child asking a parent for a fish or a loaf of bread- life's necessities. As a parent, know also that kids gain satisfaction out of earning things for themselves. Even if you can afford it, it is better for them to earn some things and have the good feeling that comes from that than to have it handed to them. They also come to value hard work and learn money management. Parents rob their kids of the knowledge that they are self-sufficient and capable.

I still find it interesting that every one of your responses goes back to material things and does not address higher needs. Aren't you more concerned with granting your kids your understanding, patience, and forgiveness than with giving them a new car for their 16th birthday? I drive a 9-year old car. My kid would never ask for a new car. That does not make me sad; that makes me joyful that he respects me and understands our priorities.

[Drachen]

My child gets all the love and support he needs, but there are many material things he does not need and would never ask me for. He sees how I live my life, and he has the decency and respect not to ask for things to be handed to him. Likewise, I would have never gone to my parents asking for certain material things when I saw how they sacrificed for me and my siblings. If my son comes home telling me about one of his teachers who supports a foundation that raises money to educate kids in Africa, and he asks, then I am happy to give him money. If a group of kids are raising funds to buy goats for a village, I am happy to contribute and he knows that. He would never come home and say, "I want an iPhone."

He knows the difference between needs and wants. In your own passage from Matthew, Jesus uses the analogy of a child asking a parent for a fish or a loaf of bread- life's necessities. As a parent, know also that kids gain satisfaction out of earning things for themselves. Even if you can afford it, it is better for them to earn some things and have the good feeling that comes from that than to have it handed to them. They also come to value hard work and learn money management. Parents rob their kids of the knowledge that they are self-sufficient and capable.

I agree, I had to put up $60 of the $100 for my first nintendo. I was 7. Remember this was $60 in the 80's. I saved my allowance ($5 a week), and mowed my neighbor's lawn until I had enough money. I don't remember many of my toys, or who I got them from as a child, but I most certainly remember the day I came home from the store with a nintendo and how I got it.

[ploto]

I agree, I had to put up $60 of the $100 for my first nintendo. I was 7. Remember this was $60 in the 80's. I saved my allowance ($5 a week), and mowed my neighbor's lawn until I had enough money. I don't remember many of my toys, or who I got them from as a child, but I most certainly remember the day I came home from the store with a nintendo and how I got it.

I would say that your views in the job hunting thread are no mere coincidence.

[Drachen]

I would say that your views in the job hunting thread are no mere coincidence.

I would have to say that this is probably a logical assumption. lol.
I have kick ass parents.

[angel_luv]

I still find it interesting that every one of your responses goes back to material things and does not address higher needs. Aren't you more concerned with granting your kids your understanding, patience, and forgiveness than with giving them a new car for their 16th birthday? I drive a 9-year old car. My kid would never ask for a new car. That does not make me sad; that makes me joyful that he respects me and understands our priorities.

To me, the virtues- patience, compassion, mercy etc. - part is understood between us in this discussion because that is not a point of Christianity on which we differ.

We both believe God grants us virtues, the question being debated here is: Can we/ should we expect physical, non- essential blessings from God?

You don't know me to know that I am not at all materalistic. I guess I take that for granted and I shouldn't.

One of my mom's frustrations with me growing up is that I never asked for things so she never knew what I might enjoy as a gift when it came to Christmas or my birthday.

When it came to my wedding this summer, I was doing everything I could to save money because my mom paid for my wedding and I did not want her generous nature to cause damage to her limited income.

I am not at all suggesting that one should ever try to take advantage of God or their parents or anyone's generous nature.

But I also feel it is important that people know what a loving, giving, wonderful, generous God that God is.

It goes back to my planning my wedding. I knew that Mom would spare no expense to make that day special to me. Out of love back to her, I stuck to a budget and shopped for bargains.
But it did something great in my heart and strengthened my relationship to realize how eager my Mom was to bless me.

If Mom with her human limitations is so generous towards me, how much more so giving is God's heart towards me!

And knowing how much God loves and blesses me, makes me want to greatly love and bless others- to pay it forward, so to speak.

[tlongII]

Whoever dies with the most toys wins the game of life!

[Sancha]

Whoever dies with the most toys wins the game of life!


You would be winning so far then. You have more toys than anyone I know. You have double the amount of "toys" that i have.

[ploto]

I do not question His generosity. I question my need.

There is a vast difference between a parent being generous and a parent being indulgent.

[ploto]

I am curious for those who espouse the prosperity Gospel as to what your role is in creating your path to prosperity. In other words, what responsibility do you have to educate yourself or to seek training that increases your ability to prosper financially? If you think this is an important part of life, then what do you do to work toward it? Or do you simply expect it to fall in your lap?

The reason I ask is that studies have been conducted on the relationship between being of a lower educational and socio-economic status and being a follower of the prosperity gospel. It has been suggested that maybe this is because it offers hope to the poor but some wonder if it contributes to their staying poor-- that is, because they are less likely to seek actively the means to improve their earning potential themselves.

I do not want to appear as if I am piling on AL, but she is the one willing to support it here publicly. I know that I spoke with you a few years ago about attending college or some sort of training, but you never have, as far as I know. You still work a hostess job and at the mall, and that is fine if you are not expecting to grow much financially, but you seem to expect economic prosperity. Do you think that your belief has made you less likely to work yourself toward that goal?

[angel_luv]

I do not want to appear as if I am piling on AL, but she is the one willing to support it here publicly. I know that I spoke with you a few years ago about attending college or some sort of training, but you never have, as far as I know. You still work a hostess job and at the mall, and that is fine if you are not expecting to grow much financially, but you seem to expect economic prosperity. Do you think that your belief has made you less likely to work yourself toward that goal?

Sorry for my late reply. I was not ignoring you Ploto. I just am not online nearly as much as I used to be.

I work at the mall and the Spurs because it pays my bills while allowing me to pursue ministry opportunities at my church .
I have prayed about new jobs but thus far have not felt God releasing me from my current ones.
I feel like I am doing the work God wants me to be doing at this point of my life.

I also know I will not be here forever. I can be patient knowing that God is directing my steps and when it is time to make a change, God is going to walk me through it and into my next stage of success. And so on and so on.


I graduated from Bible college with a desire to be in church ministry and since then have been volunteering to that end-writing for church newsletters, assisting with youth activities etc.
Eventually, I would love to take in foster children and raise them along with Bo's and my biological children, when God blesses us with them.

True, compared to many, I don't make a lot of money. But even with my entry level jobs, I always have money to pay all my bills and give to my church and still have money left over.
I view that as God greatly prospering my life.

I am living a debt free and blessed day to day existence in an economy that is bleak. I am prospering BECAUSE God is blessing me.

My goal has never been financial wealth. I love the apartment Bo and I live in and only want a big house someday so I can fill it with foster children.

I am grateful to be debt free because that frees my mind from worry, allowing me to focus on pursuing ministry opportunties instead of having to work all the time to make ends meet.

I believe that wisdom ought to play a part in all we do. I don't expect to be able to live debt free if I carelessly go out and spend more than I make.

But I do know from my own life experience that as I seek first God and walk in obedience to Him that abundance and blessings are regularly poured out in my life.

[Blake]

How did he make all his money?

He used to put on a hell of a magic show. He even provided a complimentary fish and bread buffet for the thousands in attendance.

[I. Hustle]

For the most part this thread is very cordial and well thought out. I am impressed.