Bulls think Joakim Noah Could be AllStar

[Tacker]

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/63673/20091228/bulls_think_noah_could_be_all_star/

Bulls coach Vinny Del Negro believes that center Joakim Noah should be a candidate to make the All-Star team.

Noah is averaging 10.5 points and 12.4 rebounds, third-best in the NBA.

"He's been strong," Del Negro said. "He's one of the top rebounders in the league with his energy and his length. He's around that basket, and he's been pretty consistent the whole year."

Del Negro was then asked if he'd begin pushing for his young center to make the Eastern Conference squad.

"No question," the coach said. "Everyone will talk about his rebounding, but he's made strides with his offense. He works hard. He puts the time in. He's building on that, working before practice, after, after shootarounds.

"When you work at things, you usually get better and he's seeing that. He's gaining confidence with that."

Noah seemed embarrassed by the talk.

"I don't think about it at all," he said. "That's not why I go out there and play the games; it's not for individual accolades. It's definitely flattering, humbling, but at the same time that's not why we go out there and play the game."

[lefty]

If Mo Williams is an all-star, then I guess anything is possible

[23LeBronJames23]

If Mo Williams is an all-star, then I guess anything is possible

if bulls would be in playoffs than maybe

[Venti Quattro]

Lol, somebody should fire VDN right now

[Tacker]

Lol, somebody should fire VDN right now

Joakim Noah > Andrew Bynum

[Brazil]

T Mac is an all star so why not Noah ? Noah > T-Mac

[TIMMYD!]

T Mac is an all star so why not Noah ? Noah > T-Mac

Noah is playing pretty damn well this year and anyone would love to have him on their team, especially after telling LeBron off for being arrogant and dancing, but he is still not an All-Star caliber player.

[lefty]

T Mac is an all star so why not Noah ? Noah > T-Mac
Yup

By the way, my boss is from Paris and is firend with Noah's ex-wife.

He met Joakim several times (when Joakim was like 3-4 y/o)

[iggypop123]

there has to be one more center other than howard. why not him? or who else brook lopez? definitely not perkins

[JamStone]

It's definitely possible. After Dwight Howard, there isn't really any other standout center in the East. Brooki Lopez is having a pretty good year statistically, but he's also playing for one of the worst NBA teams in the history of the league. Noah is in a group of Eastern Conference centers that are all pretty comparable stats wise, including Al Horford, David Lee, Andrew Bogut, Kendrick Perkins, and Brendan Haywood. I wouldn't be surprised by any of those guys being named as the back up center for the EC all stars. And, there's always the chance that coaches give the nod to Shaq even though he doesn't deserve it this year at all. Personally, I'd give it to Horford.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I guess Noah is the newest player to be glorified by the Chicago media. It's amazing how the Bulls aren't good with all these future franchise players they have drafted/acquired on draft day since 2001:

Marcus Fizer (even though they already had Elton brand, you can't pass this kind of talent up)
Eddy Curry (the next Shaq)
Tyson Chandler (the next KG)
Jay Williams (maybe he might have been good but an example of a talented CHI player who's stupidity got in his way)
Kirk Hinrich (the next John Stockton)
Ben Gordon (words cannot even describe his greatness)
Luol Deng (too talented to even consider trading for Kobe Bryant)
Ty Thomas (only a matter of time before he reaches his potential)
Joakim Noah (as of today has been anointed the Bulls' next future all star).

[jonnybravo]

I guess Noah is the newest player to be glorified by the Chicago media. It's amazing how the Bulls aren't good with all these future franchise players they have drafted/acquired on draft day since 2001:

Marcus Fizer (even though they already had Elton brand, you can't pass this kind of talent up)
Eddy Curry (the next Shaq)
Tyson Chandler (the next KG)
Jay Williams (maybe he might have been good but an example of a talented CHI player who's stupidity got in his way)
Kirk Hinrich (the next John Stockton)
Ben Gordon (words cannot even describe his greatness)
Luol Deng (too talented to even consider trading for Kobe Bryant)
Ty Thomas (only a matter of time before he reaches his potential)
Joakim Noah (as of today has been anointed the Bulls' next future all star).


They're like the Wizards team. The media fellates their roster and they promptly turn in a .500 season for the 8 millionth time.

Like you said, they're just NOT THAT GOOD.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

They're like the Wizards team. The media fellates their roster and they promptly turn in a .500 season for the 8 millionth time.

Like you said, they're just NOT THAT GOOD.


Exactly. Great comparison. I've never seen a perennial .500 team generate so much buzz every year.

[TDMVPDPOY]

They're like the Wizards team. The media fellates their roster and they promptly turn in a .500 season for the 8 millionth time.

Like you said, they're just NOT THAT GOOD.

raptors all over it

they like to boasts about their euro players, too bad the stats they put up in europe doesnt translate to nba game

[JoeTait75]

The Bulls have been Next Year's Champions for about the last 5-6 years.

[JMarkJohns]

I will take Rose, Hinrich, Gibson and Noah and work to build a team around them.

Although, I'm not in love with Rose, I do think he's quality and talent enough that with the right coach (not D'Antoni, but maybe a former Bulls HC in Skiles) that he can reach his potential.

The Bulls are a "What If" like few others... Off the top of my head, Jay Williams over Nene, Amare or Butler in 2002, Gordon and Deng over Iguodala and Jefferson in 2004, Trading LaMarcus Aldridge for Ty Thomas and Thabo Sefolosha over Ronnie Brewer in 2006...

Every once in a while they get a solid pick like Hinrich (good, not great, however), Noah (Very good, considering position), Rose (No brainer) and Gibson (Great, considering positioning), but they have really missed. People laugh at how they took NY and Isiah Thomas to school on the Crawford and Curry trades, but what have they to show for it? Pretty much Joakim Noah and busts.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

raptors all over it

they like to boasts about their euro players, too bad the stats they put up in europe doesnt translate to nba game


Everyone knows the Raptors suck. Their young players aren't over-hyped like Chicago's are and have been.

[JamStone]

I will take Rose, Hinrich, Gibson and Noah and work to build a team around them.

Although, I'm not in love with Rose, I do think he's quality and talent enough that with the right coach (not D'Antoni, but maybe a former Bulls HC in Skiles) that he can reach his potential.

The Bulls are a "What If" like few others... Off the top of my head, Jay Williams over Nene, Amare or Butler in 2002, Gordon and Deng over Iguodala and Jefferson in 2004, Trading LaMarcus Aldridge for Ty Thomas and Thabo Sefolosha over Ronnie Brewer in 2006...

Tough criticisms in my opinion, but easy to criticize in hindsight. Jay Williams was a consensus top two prospect in the 2002 draft by virtually every GM, scout, and analyst. And, it's really not the fault of the Bulls' front office that Jay Williams got into a motorcycle accident and that we can never really know if he would have become the player he was projected to become. Moreover, Amare, Nene, and Butler weren't even anywhere close on the radar of being considered top 2 or even top 5 prospects in that draft (maybe Nene, but there were plenty of questions about him as well being an international prospect, particularly his height at the time). But again, easy to say that now in hindsight.

Same thing with Al Jefferson, especially with him coming straight out of high school. And, it's not entirely compelling that it's a mistake to have taken Luol Deng over Andre Iguodala. A healthy Deng is about as good as Iguodala. Iguodala is still just a really athletic wing player who has pretty good skill. He hasn't shown anything along the lines of being a great leader, great clutch shot maker, all world talent that makes the picking Deng over him look that bad. And, again, Ben Gordon was a consensus top 5 pick at the time of the 2004 draft.

The trading of LaMarcus Aldridge for Tyrus Thomas was questionable because they needed scoring from one of the big positions, not necessarily athleticism. That one certainly could be argued that it was a poor judgment call to make that swap.

Thabo Sefolosha versus Ronnie Brewer... not very compelling. Neither is noticeably better than the other. Can't really argue picking one over the other is a huge mistake either way, even in retrospect.

[Brazil]

Noah is playing pretty damn well this year and anyone would love to have him on their team, especially after telling LeBron off for being arrogant and dancing, but he is still not an All-Star caliber player.

we all agree but AS voting is a joke see T Mac so why not Noah ? Saying that after an awful year Noah has showed he grew up a lot and he is now a young guy that every team would love to have him.

[JMarkJohns]

Tough criticisms in my opinion, but easy to criticize in hindsight. Jay Williams was a consensus top two prospect in the 2002 draft by virtually every GM, scout, and analyst. And, it's really not the fault of the Bulls' front office that Jay Williams got into a motorcycle accident and that we can never really know if he would have become the player he was projected to become. Moreover, Amare, Nene, and Butler weren't even anywhere close on the radar of being considered top 2 or even top 5 prospects in that draft (maybe Nene, but there were plenty of questions about him as well being an international prospect, particularly his height at the time). But again, easy to say that now in hindsight.

Same thing with Al Jefferson, especially with him coming straight out of high school. And, it's not entirely compelling that it's a mistake to have taken Luol Deng over Andre Iguodala. A healthy Deng is about as good as Iguodala. Iguodala is still just a really athletic wing player who has pretty good skill. He hasn't shown anything along the lines of being a great leader, great clutch shot maker, all world talent that makes the picking Deng over him look that bad. And, again, Ben Gordon was a consensus top 5 pick at the time of the 2004 draft.

The trading of LaMarcus Aldridge for Tyrus Thomas was questionable because they needed scoring from one of the big positions, not necessarily athleticism. That one certainly could be argued that it was a poor judgment call to make that swap.

Thabo Sefolosha versus Ronnie Brewer... not very compelling. Neither is noticeably better than the other. Can't really argue picking one over the other is a huge mistake either way, even in retrospect.

I'm not saying they drafted poorly. Just that they had a lot of very high picks and more often than not, better players could be had at those positions, sometimes immensely better (Brewer of Sefolosha is pretty drastic), or where they had the better talent, but traded him away for lesser (Brand for Chandler/Aldridge for Thomas).

They just have a lot of "What Ifs" that could construct one hell of a team.

And I will argue that Jay Williams was always way overrated (just like Dunleavy). I watched his entire career at Duke and that guy was straight up chucker. He was a volume shooter/scorer and wasn't a PG. He could make a pass, but he wasn't a PG (which is why K started a freshman in Duhon when Williams was a junior). He's was a sub-40% shooter from mid-range, 35% from three and 60% from FT line. He was turnover prone to boot.

Quality player, but way overrated. Maybe he develops? Just never thought as highly of his potential.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Jamstone, you don't think Iggy has proven an ability to hit clutch shots?

[JMarkJohns]

Jamstone, you don't think Iggy has proven an ability to hit clutch shots?

He has about six more than I can say Deng has... Better passer, equal shot, way better athlete, equal rebounder, better overall slasher, better defender.

At this point I'd say Deng is Deng. I think Iguodala has a bit more room before he hits his ceiling. And, since Jamstone brought mocks into it, Iguodala was mocked as high as 3rd overall, and most had him going 4th-through-6th, which is why Phoenix traded their pick in the first place. They coveted three players from that draft, Howard, Gordon and Iguodala, and each was slated unanimously to be gone in mocks by the time they drafted 7th. They couldn't reach a deal to move up, so they moved out. When Iguodala fell, the Suns offered the package they'd received from Chicago to Toronto and Philly in hopes of landing Iguodala, but Toronto needed a big man (Araujo) and Philly wanted Iguodala.

[JamStone]

Jamstone, you don't think Iggy has proven an ability to hit clutch shots?

Nope.

edit: perhaps he's hit some in the regular season. I don't recall him hitting any really meaningful one in the playoffs when they really matter. And I wasn't saying Deng is necessarily better. I would say Iguodala is the better player. I'm saying Iguodala hasn't really shown anything that would make me say, "oh that was a huge mistake to have picked Deng over Iguodala."

[KSeal]

Joakim Noah > Andrew Bynum

Yup. If only Bynum would give half the effort Joakim does he might actually be worth a damn.

[JamStone]

I'm not saying they drafted poorly. Just that they had a lot of very high picks and more often than not, better players could be had at those positions, sometimes immensely better (Brewer of Sefolosha is pretty drastic), or where they had the better talent, but traded him away for lesser (Brand for Chandler/Aldridge for Thomas).

They just have a lot of "What Ifs" that could construct one hell of a team.

And I will argue that Jay Williams was always way overrated (just like Dunleavy). I watched his entire career at Duke and that guy was straight up chucker. He was a volume shooter/scorer and wasn't a PG. He could make a pass, but he wasn't a PG (which is why K started a freshman in Duhon when Williams was a junior). He's was a sub-40% shooter from mid-range, 35% from three and 60% from FT line. He was turnover prone to boot.

Quality player, but way overrated. Maybe he develops? Just never thought as highly of his potential.

I see what you're saying, so fair enough.

Still, I don't think Brewer is drastically better than Sefolosha at all. My opinion. And, with Jay Williams, the problem with your opinion about him being overrated is that it's not his play on the court that can prove your opinion. We'll never know. It was a career ending injury. So, it becomes more of a Len Bias type of regret rather than a Darko over Melo, Bosh, or Wade argument.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Nope.

edit: perhaps he's hit some in the regular season. I don't recall him hitting any really meaningful one in the playoffs when they really matter. And I wasn't saying Deng is necessarily better. I would say Iguodala is the better player. I'm saying Iguodala hasn't really shown anything that would make me say, "oh that was a huge mistake to have picked Deng over Iguodala."


Maybe not Deng over Iguodala, but IMO picking Deng period is something to be criticized. He's a bust.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I never understood why the Bulls were so high on Deng. They could have had Pau.

Fuck Pau, they could have had Kobe :lmao but Paxson considered Deng an untouchable talent.

[JMarkJohns]

Nope.

edit: perhaps he's hit some in the regular season. I don't recall him hitting any really meaningful one in the playoffs when they really matter. And I wasn't saying Deng is necessarily better. I would say Iguodala is the better player. I'm saying Iguodala hasn't really shown anything that would make me say, "oh that was a huge mistake to have picked Deng over Iguodala."

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LINK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GQkHozhYoQ

Kid hasn't been in the playoffs too often to have his moments to shine.

[JamStone]

He has about six more than I can say Deng has... Better passer, equal shot, way better athlete, equal rebounder, better overall slasher, better defender.

I'd agree except for "equal shot." But again, my point wasn't that Deng is better. Rather, I'm saying Iguodala hasn't proven (in my opinion) to be the type of player to regret having passed up over Deng. For instance, if it were New Jersey in 1996 selecting Kerry Kittles over Kobe Bryant, then I'd agree. I don't think the difference is so major that the Bulls should cry over that decision to take Deng over Iguodala. Further, after selecting Gordon with the first lottery pick, the Bulls concentrated on taking a player at a different position. Although we know now that Iguodala is more than serviceable at the small forward position, Deng was a more natural fit at small forward. The Gordon selection also influenced the decision to take Deng over Iguodala.



At this point I'd say Deng is Deng. I think Iguodala has a bit more room before he hits his ceiling. And, since Jamstone brought mocks into it, Iguodala was mocked as high as 3rd overall, and most had him going 4th-through-6th, which is why Phoenix traded their pick in the first place. They coveted three players from that draft, Howard, Gordon and Iguodala, and each was slated unanimously to be gone in mocks by the time they drafted 7th. They couldn't reach a deal to move up, so they moved out. When Iguodala fell, the Suns offered the package they'd received from Chicago to Toronto and Philly in hopes of landing Iguodala, but Toronto needed a big man (Araujo) and Philly wanted Iguodala.

Iguodala has long been touted as a player with so much ceiling. They've said this ever since he's been in the league. He's one of those players scouts and GMs and coaches all say stuff like: wait until he puts it all together and figures it out. Well, this is his sixth season in the league already. How much more can he grow? When will he start reaching that potential. You say Deng is Deng. Well, I say five seasons into the league, getting starter minutes pretty much since day one of his career and never having any major injuries, Iguodala is pretty much Iguodala.

And, Andre Iguodala isn't one of the players I said wasn't projected to go high in the draft. I mentioned that with Amare and Butler and Nene. Not Iguodala. That isn't responsive to what I posted.

[JoeTait75]

Fuck Pau, they could have had Kobe :lmao but Paxson considered Deng an untouchable talent.

Is that for sure? That was the talk in the summer of 2006 but was there really an offer of Kobe-to-Chicago on the table?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Is that for sure? That was the talk in the summer of 2006 but was there really an offer of Kobe-to-Chicago on the table?


It was summer of 2007 and Paxson publicly expressed he wasn't going to give any package involving Deng for Kobe.

[JamStone]

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LINK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GQkHozhYoQ

Kid hasn't been in the playoffs too often to have his moments to shine.

Ok. Once. He's been in three post seasons, 17 games.

Deng had huge playoff performances in 2007 against the defending champs Miami Heat and the Detroit Pistons. Heck, he averaged 26 points, 9 rebounds, on 58% shooting against the Heat in that first round.

Once again, I'm not saying Iguodala isn't a good player. I'm not even saying he's not better than Deng. Overall, he's probably better, especially right now as Deng hasn't gotten back to his form since returning from his injuries from last year. However, I just don't think the difference is that great for the Bulls to lament over taking Deng over him.

[JamStone]

I never understood why the Bulls were so high on Deng. They could have had Pau.

Not the same draft.

[jonnybravo]

It was summer of 2007 and Paxson publicly expressed he wasn't going to give any package involving Deng for Kobe.

Little bit of both.

Kobe wasn't going to go to a Chicago team that was gutted for him. He was going to veto ANY trade that included Deng. In hindsight, obviously Kobe isn't much of a judge of talent because a combo of he and Deng wasn't going to do jack shit anyways.

It was a huge catch-22. Kobe wanted to go to a team with talent but any team with talent would have to give up said talent to get him. The Lakers could and would have pulled the trigger at that point during the negotiations but Kobe was the only player in the league with a complete veto power on any trade scenario involving him.

Buss wasn't going to take a crappy package and Kobe wasn't going to a crappy team.

The Bulls feelings towards Deng ranks about #134198374103478 on why that trade didn't happen.

That was a horrific off season that I hate to revisit.

[JamStone]

There was a trade proposed if I remember correct. Deng was this unmovable force for some reason.

Ok, thought you were talking about the 2004 draft.

As for that trade, I believe that was merely a rumor, but I'm not sure.

[JMarkJohns]

I'd agree except for "equal shot." But again, my point wasn't that Deng is better. Rather, I'm saying Iguodala hasn't proven (in my opinion) to be the type of player to regret having passed up over Deng. For instance, if it were New Jersey in 1996 selecting Kerry Kittles over Kobe Bryant, then I'd agree. I don't think the difference is so major that the Bulls should cry over that decision to take Deng over Iguodala. Further, after selecting Gordon with the first lottery pick, the Bulls concentrated on taking a player at a different position. Although we know now that Iguodala is more than serviceable at the small forward position, Deng was a more natural fit at small forward. The Gordon selection also influenced the decision to take Deng over Iguodala.

Fair enough... Can't say I'm not a bit biased towards Iggy, cause I am. I do think Iguodala is the better player, though not by far, though Deng is seemingly constantly injured, so, if that's factored in, then maybe...


Iguodala has long been touted as a player with so much ceiling. They've said this ever since he's been in the league. He's one of those players scouts and GMs and coaches all say stuff like: wait until he puts it all together and figures it out. Well, this is his sixth season in the league already. How much more can he grow? When will he start reaching that potential. You say Deng is Deng. Well, I say five seasons into the league, getting starter minutes pretty much since day one of his career and never having any major injuries, Iguodala is pretty much Iguodala.

And, Andre Iguodala isn't one of the players I said wasn't projected to go high in the draft. I mentioned that with Amare and Butler and Nene. Not Iguodala. That isn't responsive to what I posted.

I think this is fair. I think Iguodala was much more raw in many aspects of the game than was Deng upon entering the League, this, despite Deng being a year younger. Iggy was a track star throughout most of high school and was ridiculously raw his first season at Arizona. Had immense potential, but has mostly a finisher. His second season he started to put his slashing game together with a better handle and better pass awareness. This was enough of a glimpse to be selected in the lottery. He wasn't even close to being polished in any area. I've watched him as closely as one can from Arizona and I see him improving every year. It's not always drastically or statistically, but flaws are minimized each season. I would like to see better mid-range shooting, but he's solid. This is the one area I think he can and will most likely continue to improve.

Also, I wasn't using the mock in response to your analysis of Iguodala, merely referencing you claim for Jay Williams being a top-2 in most mocks, so I references Iggy's mocks to speak of his talent similarly.

As for his playoff performance, Iguodala averages nearly 21 ppg, 6 rpg, 7 apg and 2 spg in last season's playoff series vs. eventual conference representative Orlando. One of his playoff appearances came as a (very raw) rookie, the other a few years later. He struggled in his first two appearances, but to backup the season-to-season improvement that I've mentioned, he got drastically better with each playoff appearance (10-5-3 to 14-5-5 to 21-6-7).

At each player's best in the playoffs, you can't really argue one over the other, and Iggy does have that one buzzer beater to Deng's none...

Deng: 10 games - 22 ppg, 8 rpg, 2 apg, 1 spg on 52% FG, 00% 3FG
Iguodala: 6 games - 21 ppg, 6 rpg, 7 apg, 2 spg on 45% FG, 40% 3FG

I suppose I rate Iggy higher as I like my SFs to be athletic with 3-point range and passing ability.

[mystargtr34]

Well there's Dwight.... who is getting the reserve spot...

Bogut
Lopez
Horford
Noah
Shaq
Lee
Jermaine

Lopez and Bogut have the best numbers... but both are on losing teams. Id probly go with Bogut, but i dont think he deserves it.

[Indazone]

Holy crap Noah an All-Star? If he weren't playing on that overrated piece of crap team the Bulls he wouldn't be getting the minutes he's getting and he wouldn't even be mentioned in any All-Star talk. Al Horford is way better than Noah and they used to be teammates at Florida. Horford isn't ready to be an All-Star either but he deserves mention before Noah.

Noah = Eric Dampier of the East. LOL

[JMarkJohns]

Al Horford is way better than Noah and they used to be teammates at Florida. Horford isn't ready to be an All-Star either but he deserves mention before Noah.

Noah = Eric Dampier of the East. LOL

Wrong... Horford has talent, but he's no more skilled than Noah, save for maybe a bit better touch, but Noah is the vastly superior rebounder and shotblocker, as well as rotational defender. Neither deserves to be an All-Star, but Horford is not "way better" and Noah is not "Dampier of the East" ... Dampier hasn't put forth the effort in his career that Noah puts forth in a game. Statistically, I don't think Dampier has ever been top-3 in rebounding for the entire League.

Any team would be lucky to have Noah on its squad, if for no other reason, the kid never quits, does all the little things few people want to, plays solid defense with intensity, and rebounds like a young Rodman. Kid's got a high ceiling defensively and on the boards, and has solid low-post potential offensively as well. Little know fact, Noah was 6-5 when he was a HS senior. At age 24, he's only been near seven foot since around age 19/20. The Kid is still developing/growing into his body.

[endrity]

If we take for granted the fact that KG and LBJ will be the starters at the forward spots, then a coach surely could vote for Bosh as the center in their ballots. With all due respect to Noah, Horford and Bogut neither is an All-Star in my mind, though Bogut comes closest I think.

However with Bosh as the center there will be more deserving players getting in at the forward spots, such as Josh Smith for example.

In fact, since we are on the subject what should the East squad be? I am not sure, there is a sudden drop in talent after about half of the spots are filled.

Starting 5
C: Howard
PF: KG
SF: LBJ
SG: Wade
PG: J.Johnson ??? (I am not really sure here, who has been the second best guard in the East? Jennings started off amazing but has tailed off quite a bit now)

Bench
Bosh
J.Smith
Pierce ?? He's a Celtic so he'll get in but he's been pretty average I think
Jennings
Mo Williams?? - He's picked it up quite a bit now in last couple of games

I am completely unsure for the last two spots. There is very little in my mind that divides Arenas, Carter, Rondo, Turkoglu???, G.Wallace, Jamison and maybe someone else. I guess because of the team success Carter and Rondo will get it. After all the talk of how the East is getting better you really realize that it's only top-heavy, the dropoff after that is sudden and it's hard to find enough talent to fill a decent All-Star squad. It's completely different in the West where again someone deserving will be left out.

[endrity]

By the way, here's what I think the West should be:

Stat, Dirk, Melo, Kobe, CP3
Nash, Roy, Duncan, Gasol, Durant
Billups, D.Williams