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Marcus Bryant
12-30-2009, 10:56 AM
http://www.slate.com/id/2239935/

Flying High
Why are we so bad at detecting the guilty and so good at collective punishment of the innocent?

By Christopher Hitchens
Slate.com

Posted Monday, Dec. 28, 2009, at 12:03 PM ET

It's getting to the point where the twin news stories more or less write themselves. No sooner is the fanatical and homicidal Muslim arrested than it turns out that he (it won't be long until it is also she) has been known to the authorities for a long time. But somehow the watch list, the tipoff, the many worried reports from colleagues and relatives, the placing of the name on a "central repository of information (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/27/us/27terror.html)" don't prevent the suspect from boarding a plane, changing planes, or bringing whatever he cares to bring onto a plane. This is now a tradition that stretches back to several of the murderers who boarded civilian aircraft on Sept. 11, 2001, having called attention to themselves by either a) being on watch lists already or b) weird behavior at heartland American flight schools. They didn't even bother to change their names.

So that's now more or less the routine for the guilty. (I am not making any presumption of innocence concerning Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab.) But flick your eye across the page, or down it, and you will instantly see a different imperative for the innocent. "New Restrictions Quickly Added for Travelers (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/27/us/27security.html?scp=4&sq=micheline%20maynard&st=cse)," reads the inevitable headline just below the report on the notoriety of Abdulmutallab, whose own father had been sufficiently alarmed to report his son (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2009/12/28/ST2009122800703.html?sid=ST2009122800703) to the U.S. Embassy in Abuja, Nigeria, some time ago. (By the way, I make a safe prediction: Nobody in that embassy or anywhere else in our national security system will lose his or her job as a consequence of this most recent disgrace.)

In my boyhood, there were signs on English buses that declared, in bold letters, "No Spitting." At a tender age, I was able to work out that most people don't need to be told this, while those who do feel a desire to expectorate on public transport will require more discouragement than a mere sign. But I'd be wasting my time pointing this out to our majestic and sleepless protectors, who now boldly propose to prevent airline passengers from getting out of their seats for the last hour of any flight. Abdulmutallab made his bid in the last hour of his flight, after all. Yes, that ought to do it. It's also incredibly, nay, almost diabolically clever of our guardians to let it be known what the precise time limit will be. Oh, and by the way, any passenger courageous or resourceful enough to stand up and fight back will also have broken the brave new law.

For some years after 9/11, passengers were forbidden to get up and use the lavatory on the Washington-New York shuttle. Zero tolerance! I suppose it must eventually have occurred to somebody that this ban would not deter a person who was willing to die, so the rule was scrapped. But now the principle has been revisited for international flights. For many years after the explosion of the TWA plane over Long Island (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800) (a disaster that was later found to have nothing at all to do with international religious nihilism), you could not board an aircraft without being asked whether you had packed your own bags and had them under your control at all times. These two questions are the very ones to which a would-be hijacker or bomber would honestly and logically have to answer "yes." But answering "yes" to both was a condition of being allowed on the plane! Eventually, that heroic piece of stupidity was dropped as well. But now fresh idiocies are in store. Nothing in your lap during final approach. Do you feel safer? If you were a suicide-killer, would you feel thwarted or deterred?

Why do we fail to detect or defeat the guilty, and why do we do so well at collective punishment of the innocent? The answer to the first question is: Because we can't—or won't. The answer to the second question is: Because we can. The fault here is not just with our endlessly incompetent security services, who give the benefit of the doubt to people who should have been arrested long ago or at least had their visas and travel rights revoked. It is also with a public opinion that sheepishly bleats to be made to "feel safe." The demand to satisfy that sad illusion can be met with relative ease if you pay enough people to stand around and stare significantly at the citizens' toothpaste. My impression as a frequent traveler is that intelligent Americans fail to protest at this inanity in case it is they who attract attention and end up on a no-fly list instead. Perfect.

It was reported over the weekend that in the aftermath of the Detroit fiasco, no official decision was made about whether to raise the designated "threat level" from orange. Orange! Could this possibly be because it would be panicky and ridiculous to change it to red and really, really absurd to lower it to yellow? But isn't it just as preposterous (and revealing), immediately after a known Muslim extremist has waltzed through every flimsy barrier, to leave it just where it was the day before?

What nobody in authority thinks us grown-up enough to be told is this: We had better get used to being the civilians who are under a relentless and planned assault from the pledged supporters of a wicked theocratic ideology. These people will kill themselves to attack hotels, weddings, buses, subways, cinemas, and trains. They consider Jews, Christians, Hindus, women, homosexuals, and dissident Muslims (to give only the main instances) to be divinely mandated slaughter victims. Our civil aviation is only the most psychologically frightening symbol of a plethora of potential targets. The future murderers will generally not be from refugee camps or slums (though they are being indoctrinated every day in our prisons); they will frequently be from educated backgrounds, and they will often not be from overseas at all. They are already in our suburbs and even in our military. We can expect to take casualties. The battle will go on for the rest of our lives. Those who plan our destruction know what they want, and they are prepared to kill and die for it. Those who don't get the point prefer to whine about "endless war," accidentally speaking the truth about something of which the attempted Christmas bombing over Michigan was only a foretaste. While we fumble with bureaucracy and euphemism, they are flying high.

Oh, Gee!!
12-30-2009, 11:03 AM
we have to be right every time, they just have to get lucky once. that's the scary thing.

Winehole23
12-30-2009, 12:15 PM
It's not that scary, Oh gee.

DarrinS
12-30-2009, 12:21 PM
It's not that scary, Oh gee.

I'll bet you'd think differently if you were on that flight.

Dumbass.

Winehole23
12-30-2009, 12:31 PM
Keep fapping the fear. It's what you're good at.

doobs
12-30-2009, 12:37 PM
It's not that scary, Oh gee.

Please explain.

Wild Cobra
12-30-2009, 12:38 PM
Darrin, I have to agree with WH on this. There is only so much that is acceptable. Travel has become a nuisance now. I can accept extra safeguards, but they are out of control. As long as they cannot make it into the cockpit and use the plane as a weapon, I think it better to lighten up a bit, and realize we still cannot 100% prevent a hijacking. We may lose a few lives that we wouldn't otherwise, but then, we do on the streets every day by being so lax in traffic laws.

How about we really save lives and enforce the 2 and 3 second rules. Fine people heavily for speeding, following close, and any other daily activity we see that increases the possibility of accidents? We would save so many more lives by putting that money to work in the police departments rather than the airlines.

Don't even get me started on the quality of the Justice system. Want to save lives? How many people die each year from violent crimes vs. 2001 airline incidents?

Winehole23
12-30-2009, 12:40 PM
Terrorism isn't that big a threat, statistically speaking. It makes more sense to be afraid of choking, drowning, illness, falling down and the drive to and from work.

Statistically speaking, the fear of being struck by lightning is more well founded than fear of terrorism.

Wild Cobra
12-30-2009, 12:41 PM
Terrorism isn't that big a threat, statistically speaking. It makes more sense to be afraid of choking, drowning, illness, falling down and the drive to and from work.

Statistically speaking, the fear of being struck by lightning is more well founded than fear of terrorism.
And isn't it funny how coconuts kill more people than sharks, but what are people afraid of?

Marcus Bryant
12-30-2009, 12:42 PM
Naturally the first reaction of the state is to clamp down on the people.

Here we see the best (*ahem*) of the current American left and right. An inordinate focus on equality and order which endangers the people.

Winehole23
12-30-2009, 12:44 PM
That's a good example, WC. What's on your dinner plate will kill you far more quickly and surely than terrorism, but you'll seldom see that in featured in newspapers or on cable TV.

Marcus Bryant
12-30-2009, 12:44 PM
And we spend something like three quarters of a trillion dollars per annum on national defense and we can't protect civilians from someone's drawers? Motherfucker.

Marcus Bryant
12-30-2009, 12:46 PM
The people like to be shocked and awed. Sensationalism rules the day. A sober people would never allow the Constitution to be desecrated and defecated on as it has been.

Winehole23
12-30-2009, 12:47 PM
The notion that our government can prevent terrorism is totally unrealistic. Manage the problem? Yes. Make us safe, no way.

Wild Cobra
12-30-2009, 12:47 PM
And we spend something like three quarters of a trillion dollars per annum on national defense and we can't protect civilians from someone's drawers? Motherfucker.
No matter what you do, unless you institute a complete police state, ingenious people will figure something out.

I see this as only a white-wash to make people feel safer. they got the strong doors now to the cockpit, I think that's enough.

DarrinS
12-30-2009, 12:51 PM
Darrin, I have to agree with WH on this. There is only so much that is acceptable. Travel has become a nuisance now. I can accept extra safeguards, but they are out of control. As long as they cannot make it into the cockpit and use the plane as a weapon, I think it better to lighten up a bit, and realize we still cannot 100% prevent a hijacking. We may lose a few lives that we wouldn't otherwise, but then, we do on the streets every day by being so lax in traffic laws.

How about we really save lives and enforce the 2 and 3 second rules. Fine people heavily for speeding, following close, and any other daily activity we see that increases the possibility of accidents? We would save so many more lives by putting that money to work in the police departments rather than the airlines.

Don't even get me started on the quality of the Justice system. Want to save lives? How many people die each year from violent crimes vs. 2001 airline incidents?


I agree in the sense that I don't spend much time thinking about being killed in a terrorist attack. And I don't think this recent event justifies all the new security "procedures" that we'll have to endure. All I was saying is that I'm sure those passengers who heard the "pop" and saw the fire and ensuing struggle were afraid.

DarrinS
12-30-2009, 12:53 PM
I always found it strange that they confiscate nail clippers, but not a pencil or pen.

Winehole23
12-30-2009, 12:54 PM
hhttp://images-2.redbubble.net/img/art/border:blackwithdetail/product:laminated-print/size:small/view:preview/2332235-2-white-elephant.jpg

Winehole23
12-30-2009, 12:58 PM
I always found it strange that they confiscate nail clippers, but not a pencil or pen.Why are you scared of pencils and pens, Darrin?

Marcus Bryant
12-30-2009, 12:59 PM
Yes, there's always a chance. Such is life. In this tale the utter failure of that which you would expect to be running well by this point, past nine years since 9/11, is glaring. A perfect failure of modern Western society is indeed to clamp down on rights of the innocent while attempting to avoid offending the sensitivities of those least a part of it.

Wild Cobra
12-30-2009, 12:59 PM
I agree in the sense that I don't spend much time thinking about being killed in a terrorist attack. And I don't think this recent event justifies all the new security "procedures" that we'll have to endure. All I was saying is that I'm sure those passengers who heard the "pop" and saw the fire and ensuing struggle were afraid.
Sure, the fear is understandable. Especially when you have no place to go. Still, the TSA is under-skilled and overburdens the public. The changes were, and recently prove the still are, a knee-jerk reaction.

ElNono
12-30-2009, 02:19 PM
The TSA was, and prove to still be, a knee-jerk reaction.

fify

Oh, Gee!!
12-30-2009, 03:09 PM
It's not that scary, Oh gee.

the scary thing being that after enough attempts one is bound to be successful. It's seems to me that we could never have a 100% prevention rate--one or two are going to not only get through (like in this case) but succeed as well.

Don't think that I'm afraid for my personal safety; I'm afraid for those unfortunate people that will be present one unlucky day.

boutons_deux
12-30-2009, 05:06 PM
300 Americans killed by a bombed airplane

What's the difference? We got 300M more.

How many Americans are killed every year in accidents with guns of dickless gun nuts?

DarkReign
01-04-2010, 11:13 AM
How many Americans are killed every year in accidents with guns of dickless gun nuts?

I would venture a guess less than those killed by gun-toting wanna-be ganagsters.

Each state keeps a record of shootings involving registered gun owners. Even further up the chain, they keep records of concealed carry permits involved in shootings.

Again, I venture to say both of those groups combined (with the obvious overlap) compose an infinitesimal percentage of gun-related deaths.

I would guess most fatal shootings are between family members. If it wasnt a gun, it would have been a knife while theyre sleeping. Cant fix vengence.

So, in conclusion, I would say "dickless gun nuts" compose a rather incredibly small percentage of gun crime in this country. Its criminals (drug dealers and street gangs) and family members who comprise the majority of that list.

There is already a failing War on Crime using a nationwide para-military police force and we arent outlawing families from getting into personal, heated arguments, sooooo.....

TeyshaBlue
01-04-2010, 11:30 AM
300 Americans killed by a bombed airplane

What's the difference? We got 300M more.

How many Americans are killed every year in accidents with guns of dickless gun nuts?

Pales in comparison to the brain cells killed by one of your posts.

boutons_deux
01-04-2010, 02:11 PM
" "dickless gun nuts" compose a rather incredibly small percentage of gun crime in this country"

I said accidents, as in hunting and domestic, not crime. I think several dozen kids are killed/year in gun accidents in TX alone.

300 dead in a underpants-bombed plane out of 300M is 0.0001%, is that infinitesimal enough for you?

35K die in US every year for want of health care.

US spends 100s of $Bs on "security" to kill a few 1000 ragheads 10K miles away, but can't find the money to save 35K US lives/year.

The big diff is that the MIC spends 100s of $Ms on lobbying the US into permanent war and wasteful, ridiculous defense extravagance, while the 35K dead people don't have any lobbyists.

TeyshaBlue
01-04-2010, 03:30 PM
" "dickless gun nuts" compose a rather incredibly small percentage of gun crime in this country"

I said accidents, as in hunting and domestic, not crime. I think several dozen kids are killed/year in gun accidents in TX alone.

300 dead in a underpants-bombed plane out of 300M is 0.0001%, is that infinitesimal enough for you?

35K die in US every year for want of health care.

US spends 100s of $Bs on "security" to kill a few 1000 ragheads 10K miles away, but can't find the money to save 35K US lives/year.

The big diff is that the MIC spends 100s of $Ms on lobbying the US into permanent war and wasteful, ridiculous defense extravagance, while the 35K dead people don't have any lobbyists.
First of all, nice job paraphrasing USA Today. :lol

Before you poison the atmosphere of actual, meaningful healthcare reform any further, take the time to actually read what you are posting. :rolleyes kthxbye.




I'm just juggling numbers here for the fun of it...but doesn't 35k = 0.1 percent of the total usually claimed to not have any insurance at all?

I don't know what study you're quoting because you didn't bother to post a link or back up this 35k figure. When I look I see figures as high as 45k (From a Harvard study released 9/09 http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE58G6W520090917
Then I see studies that proclaim 18k die each year which is a ridiculous 0.05 percent of that mythical 40 million without insurance. http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/healthcare/2002-05-22-insurance-deaths.htm

This just illustrates the sheer idiocy of how we go about quantifying an issue. We'll never have any meaningful shot at reform until we stop pulling idiotic statistics out of our asses and posting them everywhere as if they were anything even casually equated to factual conclusions.
It seems that the only organizations eager or willing to even try to plow through the data are funded by either side of the debate surrounding healthcare. IMHO, objective studies don't get funded at the same rate as applied studies do. For those of us that want actual reform based on basic paradigm shifts in the way we handle healthcare and insurance, this is incredibly frustrating.

boutons_deux
01-04-2010, 03:50 PM
so 10K or 40K die from lack of health care, but it's a small percentage of total unisured, it's ok, right?

how many bankruptcies and foreclosures (not deaths) for medical catastrophes are "OK". and when does OK stop being OK and needing fixing?

We can all admit that life in USA is very cheap, and pro-life conservatives and holier-than-thou "Christians" don't give a fuck how many lives are lost or destroyed for lack of medical care.

TeyshaBlue
01-04-2010, 03:52 PM
When you get the point I was trying to make, let me know...





p.s....it doesn't involve demonizing anyone or any particular viewpoint. I'll leave that to the middle school mindset or those that cannot form a cogent point.

Ignignokt
01-04-2010, 04:22 PM
Great article by Christopher Hitchens. Great thread until Marcus Bryant and Winehole decided to ejaculate on each other once again.

Winehole23
01-04-2010, 05:21 PM
We were talking to each other. Guess you can't tell the difference.

Winehole23
01-04-2010, 05:21 PM
Do you ever stop thinking of man on man action, gtown?

Ignignokt
01-04-2010, 05:25 PM
rofl

You never get old.

Winehole23
01-04-2010, 05:27 PM
You never get old.Can't say the same about you.

Ignignokt
01-04-2010, 05:50 PM
Can't say the same about you.

i age like fine wine. :whine

Winehole23
01-04-2010, 05:52 PM
Deprived of sunlight and oxygen for decades in a cool dark cave?

Winehole23
01-04-2010, 05:57 PM
It shows, gtown.

Ignignokt
01-04-2010, 06:00 PM
Deprived of sunlight and oxygen for decades in a cool dark cave?

what does your wanker hiding under your FUPA have to do with terrorism?

Winehole23
01-04-2010, 06:05 PM
That stung a little bit, didn't it?

Ignignokt
01-04-2010, 06:08 PM
That stung a little bit, didn't it?

Is that what she said?

Winehole23
01-04-2010, 06:31 PM
You wouldn't have any idea.

Winehole23
09-16-2013, 09:19 AM
That's a good example, WC. What's on your dinner plate will kill you far more quickly and surely than terrorism, but you'll seldom see that in featured in newspapers or on cable TV.http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/18715-cantaloupe-vs-al-qaeda

boutons_deux
09-16-2013, 09:27 AM
http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/18715-cantaloupe-vs-al-qaeda

fighting wildly exaggerated terrorism threats redistributes wealth from taxpayers upward to the MIC corporations

making food safe decreases BigFood/BigFarma profits.

Follow the Money. It ALWAYS leads to the truth.

Winehole23
09-16-2013, 09:31 AM
one note Johnny strikes again

boutons_deux
09-16-2013, 10:00 AM
one note Johnny strikes again

it's the dominant note that rings true, rather than your trivial, sterile debates about minuscule rat shit

and where's TB :lol with her moonbatiness about truth-out? :lol

Winehole23
09-16-2013, 10:03 AM
a blind squirrel sometimes finds the acorn

TeyshaBlue
09-16-2013, 10:08 AM
Truth-out.borg continues to lead the moonbat parade. Don't worry. Your confirmation bias feed is intact.

You think about me too much. Get a hobby. http://homerecording.com/bbs/images/smilies/facepalm.gif