How to beat Karl the FIBA way

[Solid D]

Team USA led by George Karl and Gregg Popovich in Indianapolis in 2002 was a failure. Their 1-on-1 or 2-man game and street ball style of play that works in the NBA was ineffective in the World Championships. This was partly because of a lack of team chemistry and familiarity compared with the National Teams of Argentina, Germany, and champion Yugoslavia (Serbia & Montenegro). The USA team used a style of play that didn't work when officiated with FIBA refs and where ball movement rules the day. The Americans repeatedly succombed to backdoor cuts for layups and spacing problems created in the passing game and continuous movement of the other NTs. They got schooled.

The Spurs now face a team that is playing well together but who also plays George Karl basketball. It thrives on working matchups, with isolations and then passing out of doubles or collapses, and crashing the boards. It is uptempo but it is more street than 5-man basketball. It is a style that flourishes with a Sam Cassell or Andre Miller creating, but it is a fairly low-assist style of play.

The Spurs can beat this style of play with it's current cast but only through a passing game and stronger perimeter ball pressure on D. The 4-down and 2-man game slowed the tempo, but the Spurs didn't execute for scores. They will likely have trouble again unless they change to more of a motion approach. Not every officiating crew will allow all the grabbing off the ball like they did in game 1.

They should not allow the Nuggets to home-in on a predictable hub 'n spoke offense or it will be more of the same. Keep it moving pop, FIBA style, get some easy buckets and then get them back on D. Don't you remember, that style worked on your team in Indy?

[Phenomanul]

I noticed this too.... good take Solid...

[timvp]

Very good post. These Nuggets can be beat. They really don't have a go-to scorer. Bowen seems like he can have success versus Carmelo. The rest of the Spurs just have to step up defensively.

On offense, Duncan will need to have it going and Manu and Parker are going to have to be taking it to the rim.

They can do this.


Believe.

[adidas11]

I wouldn't worry too much if I were a Spurs fan.

Yes, Denver won last night, but they won playing scrappy basketball, and not with their tried and true gameplan. Carmelo had a poor night offensively, and it took a great performance by Andre Miller and some hustle plays to win the game.

Does anyone really expect Andre Miller to average 31 pts per game throughout the series? I think not. If the Spurs can just muster some better offense, I think they'll be OK.

[thispego]

Solid D, the resounding voice of reason, good post man

[boutons]

What are the chances of Pop running a motion, FIBA, Princeton or whatever else when Tim is on the floor? Tim is the first option on nearly every possession. Pop is addicted to that, even when a hurt Tim can't perform.

What about the backourt pushing the ball up the floor, to try some transition offense and easy baskets the way the Suns do, rather than always wait for the defense to get set, and butt heads on the half-court?

There are lot of offensive tactics besides 4-down, set-piece half-court battles that the Spurs could do, but they mostly don't.

And even when I see Pop inidcating to speed up the tempo, it rarely happens because the Spurs seem to be imprisoned in Pop's system.

[Solid D]

I'll be interesting to see how that "3 hour film session" by the Spurs on Monday impacts the offensive and defensive strategy in game 2. If you hear things like, "we just need to execute better or pay attention to detail and take care of the ball"...danger, danger, danger. That may not be enough "attention to detail" strategy-wise.

[Leetonidas]

^Loser.

Spurs will take it, if they had hit some free throws and Tim made 2 of the baskets, we'd be up 1-0. Sometimes it don't go in, sometimes it do. That's how it rolls.

[SequSpur]

ahhh... the master of Solid disaster

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Solid D,

Isn't that pretty much another way of saying "less four down, more motion?"

The problem is the half court post up Tim bullshit offense is Pop's security blanket, and he goes to it every time he gets scared in the playoffs.

This team is unguardable running a motion offense, too bad Pop can't figure it out.

[TroyF]

The first post is categorically false. The Nuggets do not play an isolation style game. They are one of the better passing teams in basketball.

Lets look at this quote:

but it is a fairly low-assist style of play.

Karl coached the Nuggets for the final 40 regular season games. During that time the Nuggets averaged 25.4 assists per game.

The top assist team in basketball, the Kings, averaged 24.5 a game for the year. Karl's first real practice stint with the team happened during the all star break. (he took over on a road trip)

After the break, the Nuggets averaged over 26 assists per game.

All of this isn't related to just running the basketball.

You guys played solid defense last night. We didn't move the ball well and you held our transition game in check perfectly.

So let me answer your question. . . how many times is Dre going to go for 31? He won't do it again in the series. And you'll probably win the series. But it won't be because Denver is a "low assist" team, it'll be because you MAKE us a low assist team, something you have the capability of doing to anyone. (the Spurs have the lowest number of assists against them of any team. . . for a reason)

[Obstructed_View]

FIBA sucks.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Yo Troy, go look up how many assists Denver had last night and get back to me.

Thanks.

[adidas11]

Aggie, I think that's what Troy is referring to. Denver had a lot amount of assists last night, due to San Antonio's defense. It's also related to what I referred to, in that Andre Miller uncharacteristically took a lot of shots last night. Those two reasons alone should give Spurs fans some confidence, in that the Nuggets won, but they didn't dictate the style of play in the game (i.e., they didn't win going with their first and second options)

[Kori Ellis]

Yo Troy, go look up how many assists Denver had last night and get back to me.

Thanks.

Troy is right. SolidD is saying that IN GENERAL the Nuggets play a low-assist style of basketball. And since Karl took over, they actually don't. SolidD's premise is off.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Whoops, my bad. I was sitting in a hotel room here the bustling metropolis of Victoria, TX with three whiny, ornery Dallas Maverick loving co-workers.

You'd think someone just kicked their dog. Twice. :lol

[Solid D]

The "low-assist style" was not an accurate statement. I should have referred to the style as backcourt distributor style of play. I'll retract that terminology. The offense relies on a high % of assists coming from Miller and Boykins in the backcourt.

The rest of the my premise about George Karl's use of isos and 2-man is not false. Spread, lift and iso is a staple.

[TroyF]

The "low-assist style" was not an accurate statement. I should have referred to the style as backcourt distributor style of play. I'll retract that terminology. The offense relies on a high % of assists coming from Miller and Boykins in the backcourt.

The rest of the my premise about George Karl's use of isos and 2-man is not false. Spread, lift and iso is a staple.


But even that part is off Solid. The Nuggets actually rely on ball movement, and a TON of it. Miller and Boykins did have some big assist games the second half of the season, but there were games when the team had 35 assists with the leader having 6 or 7. We had games where we had TEN players with two or more assists.

And the ISO thing is simply wrong. The Nuggets don't play a ton of ISO. They'll play a little pick and roll with Dre/Melo. They'll certainly put Melo on the block, but that's about the only player on the team that consistently gets the ball in the post.

There really isn't a lot of ISO play. It's a motion offense. And when it's working, it looks a lot like Phoenix minus the three point shooting. A ton of ball movement, four or five guys touching the ball each possession and people moving. Karl said the Nuggets biggest problem the other night was not making the extra pass. . . the one this team has continually made the second half of the season.

A little back story on the Nuggets offense for those interested:

When Karl took over, he felt the Nuggets had too many ball stoppers. He told the guys in practice that he wouldn't be an X's and O's coach, he'd let them play, as long as they did ONE thing for him in practice. The rule was no Nugget could hold the ball for over three seconds. You get it in your hands, you have three seconds to shoot or pass. The style very quickly worked it's way into the real games. This team is a great passing team and it isn't just the PG's.

You'll only see it in spurts this series because of how dominant your D is. But if you watch a Nugget game on tape from earlier in the year, you are going to see your entire premise, both with the low assists and the ISO is false.

[TroyF]

Whoops, my bad. I was sitting in a hotel room here the bustling metropolis of Victoria, TX with three whiny, ornery Dallas Maverick loving co-workers.

You'd think someone just kicked their dog. Twice. :lol


I love your defense. I'd rather have a running team and play 80's style basketball myself, but your defense is something special. The entire team working as one, it's an awesome site to see. The Nuggets can play that way in spurts, but not for 48 minutes. The positive thing is they usually play that style in the fourth quarter. If you are only going to do it for one quarter. . . :)

As for the Mavs. . . OUCH

[ManuTastic]

So is it time to throw a zone at Denver? They only took 6 3s in game 1, and one was Miller's half-court heave. Ignore that one and they shot 2-5 from 3. A good percentage (for 3s), but it shows they don't do it much. I think a zone would slow down their offense and certainly keep Miller from abusing Parker with his strength. I'd a lot rather face the problem of Wesley Person from deep than Miller from 5 feet.

[Solid D]

I'll watch the games along with you from here on out and see what unfolds in the playoffs. I haven't seen Denver play in as many games as you Troy or some of the other Denver fans. I know what George did with Seattle and Milwaukee and, of course, Team USA. I watched the game Sunday and the replay of the game yesterday and in a fairly high percentage of the plays Denver ran, they lifted their bigs to the perimeter and went from there. One frequent example: D. Johnson/Miller in corner, Melo/Person wing, Camby top, KMart either high post or side screener, Miller or Boykins iso'd to work in space triple-threat or 2-man game screen/roll.

They did use some double screens and some motion that looks like 4-out, 1-in, but it was more NBA style of spread the floor with not much motion to it until the guard created action with a shot or dribble penetration. When the Spurs zoned them a few times, the Nuggets used a fairly standard zone offense with the bigs high/low.

Maybe they play differently in games I haven't seen. We can compare notes as this thing progresses, game by game.

My primary focus was how to beat Karl's Nuggets offensively, from the Spurs perspective. Less hub and spoke and more motion for the SPURS.

[whottt]

Manu didn't seem to have any trouble beating Karl when his coach wasn't Pop...come to think of it...he didn't have any trouble beating Pop either....or Duncan, or Carmello, or Kmart...

I agree let's do this the FIBA way...let's make Pop an assistant for the Nuggets.

[MI21]

Solid D is never wrong.

[Solid D]

:lol Too funny.

How does that saying go? "I thought I was wrong once...but I was mistaken."

[gus]

First,

USA 2002, played different than USA 2004. In fact with the exception of the final place the 2002 was better, and they lost because the lack of good post players ( Sorry but Ben Wallace, and J. O'Neal played horrible ).

When you face something like this (Denver tough defense ) it is quite difficult so say that you will fix the things playing FIBA style. First, in FIBA you won't be allowed to play that holding, elbowing, pushing game, so a team playing like Denver will be left without players in 10 minutes. So FIBA do not give anything for this.

Anyway, what FIBA use is a lot of ball movement, and zone defense. Zone defense is good for stoping dominant players and specially for dominant players in the low post. San Antonio is good in one on one and our internals are better than Denver's. So the defensive solution is that Parker start moving his butt and shut Miller. With respect to ball motion, that's another issue, San Antonio should move the ball more in the Flex style, that is what they have used early in the season. The only problem is that you have to have decent shooters for that task and in defense one on one is not that easy. By the way Flex, was invented by Hubie Brown, and basketball is basketball.

So, move the ball and fight, hell.


Gus

[Rick Von Braun]

My primary focus was how to beat Karl's Nuggets offensively, from the Spurs perspective. Less hub and spoke and more motion for the SPURS. Ditto.

The only thing I know, is that when the Spurs were running a mix of motion offense (with back screens and cutters) + pick & roll + 4-down, the Spurs were freaking unbeatable. They were beating teams with a +11.5 pts/game differential.

On Sunday, the only player I saw cutting to the basket and expecting a pass was Manu (and he did it fewer times than usual), receiving the ball once when cutting (after waiting in the low block for a pass!). You want to beat Camby's shot blocking ability... increase the speed and movement when attacking the basket to get him slightly out of position. This does require some coordination among players.

Another comment since we are at it... why is the 4-down run by the Spurs so predictable? It doesn't have to be. For example, when the guard throwing the lob pass to Tim cuts to the other side of the floor to create space for Tim, it seldom ever looks for a pass (or likewise Tim doesn't look to make a pass). Look carefully next time, the opponent guard almost always gets near Tim to double a little before running behind their man to the corner. Please don't just run to the corner like a robot without watching the ball! Tim is in perfect position to throw a lob pass to the guard cutting without his man for one second and surprise the defense. This is just a simple example of a little thing that could be done occasionally to mix things up a bit.

When your shots are not falling, it is the responsability of the team (and Pop) to mix things up and look for higher percentage opportunites. Pop has more knowledge of X's and O's than all of us combined and multiplied by 10. I absolutely don't dispute that. I don't think anyone could argue that the Spurs have the personnel to run a more complex offense either (since they have done it before this year). What I am not convinced is whether Pop has the guts to adapt and improvise in a playoff series. I don't question his knowledge of the game, but I do question his rigidity sometimes.

[TroyF]

I'll watch the games along with you from here on out and see what unfolds in the playoffs. I haven't seen Denver play in as many games as you Troy or some of the other Denver fans. I know what George did with Seattle and Milwaukee and, of course, Team USA. I watched the game Sunday and the replay of the game yesterday and in a fairly high percentage of the plays Denver ran, they lifted their bigs to the perimeter and went from there. One frequent example: D. Johnson/Miller in corner, Melo/Person wing, Camby top, KMart either high post or side screener, Miller or Boykins iso'd to work in space triple-threat or 2-man game screen/roll.

They did use some double screens and some motion that looks like 4-out, 1-in, but it was more NBA style of spread the floor with not much motion to it until the guard created action with a shot or dribble penetration. When the Spurs zoned them a few times, the Nuggets used a fairly standard zone offense with the bigs high/low.

Maybe they play differently in games I haven't seen. We can compare notes as this thing progresses, game by game.

My primary focus was how to beat Karl's Nuggets offensively, from the Spurs perspective. Less hub and spoke and more motion for the SPURS.


Like I said, I expect you are only going to see spurts of it in this series. I'm not sure that a set motion offense can work against the Spurs. Too solid everywhere to do it consistently. But the Nuggets weren't making the extra pass the other night and that was huge.

You want the game plan to beat the Nuggets?

1) You mix in zone throughout the game and pack it in. While we have some good outside shooters, all of em are inconsistent. Melo, KMart, Camby, Boykins, Person, Dermarr, Buckner, Russell and Najera can all hit the open 18 footer. . . but they can't do it consistently.

2) You get in the passing lanes. Something the Spurs did incredibly well the other night.

3) You make darned sure you don't give them easy hoops. The Nuggets are deep and athletic. From the PG to the C, every player on this team can run up and down the floor. You don't get back, you die. You spend time watching Melo on the post, KMart, Dermarr, or Camby will be catching the alley oop pass from Dre and will throw it down.

4) You run on them. The Nuggets like to be the ones attacking and forcing the pace. One of the ways to counteract that is to push the pace yourself. Like most running teams, the Nuggets hate to be attacked, they want to be the ones brining the pressure. I think teams who try to slow it down aren't nearly as effective against us. Denver finished the year with a 25-4 run after the all-star break.

Their only losses? Phoenix three times and the Rockets, who caught them on the second night of a back to back and without Camby. In the four losses, the Nuggets gave up an average of 118 points. The Nuggets were held to under 90 points only one time after the break, that Rockets game where they were dead tired.

I don't think you'll beat the Nuggets 92-81, especially not at The Pepsi Center where you now have to win a game. This is one area I don't think you exploited enough. I'm not saying you throw your gameplan out and try to score 125, but you'd better take advantage of your break chances.

5) Shoot your threes well. . . In the four Nugget losses after the break, teams shot the three ball 44 - 91 (48.4%) Those teams averaged 11 three point made shots a game. That kills the Nuggets, because it forces them to use KMart to run out at perimeter players and doesn't allow us to get our fast break off. It also prevents the Nuggets from getting a lot of blocked shots (again, because they are charging out on shooters) In those four losses, the Nuggets blocked a grand total of 11 shots. That's less than half their season average. The other night the Nuggets blocked 8 shots and you guys went 3-13 from three point territory. You won't win with those numbers.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Some of you who have read other threads might be able to see a little bit why I laugh at the "Nuggets gave us their best" stuff I've seen in other threads. You don't go 25-4 in this league shooting 40% and committing more turnovers than assists.

I still think you guys are going to find a way to win this series. You're the Spurs. You have playoff experience. You have Duncan. You've been through the pressure that this Nugget team hasn't.

But don't underestimate what this Nugget team is. This run wasn't a fluke and this team isn't going to go down without a drop down drag out fight.

[Solid D]

Some very good points, Troy.

[Phonzie20]

I fear the next game (from a fan perspective).

You'll have to wear Camby down. Yes. I know Camby doesn't garner attention the way Timmay! does. But he is OUR important piece.

Najera will be back and he is the perfect replacement to our old hustler Ryan Bowen.

blah blah balh.. but yeah... I feel it'll be 1-1 after tomorrow.

[Phonzie20]

Some very good points, Troy.

Troy is a VERY good poster. Very neutral. Good guy.

Even though he thinks Melo will be a superstar.. Something we have debated in the past.

[Solid D]

Something I mentioned last week...the need for the Spurs to pick off or put a body on Camby because of the way the Nuggets use him to "spy" or watchdog Tony Parker on his lane penetrations. Exhibit A of the need for this came Sunday night. The Spurs did not do this and it really impacted TP's effectiveness in there. The Nuggets like to use Camby like the Spurs used David Robinson. Free to roam.

Sean Elliott commented about this today on a radio interview...only he used the term "shadow" but basically the same observation about Marcus.

Lifting with the "big" that Marcus is defending only helps so much so the Spurs need to make him pay by having Marcus' man (when he leaves them)flash from the top to the hoop a la Amare Stoudamire's bread and butter play (fed by Nash). Timmy or Nazr cannot leap & dunk like Amare but they can still make Marcus' pay.

[Phonzie20]

Something I mentioned last week...the need for the Spurs to pick off or put a body on Camby because of the way the Nuggets use him to "spy" or watchdog Tony Parker on his lane penetrations. Exhibit A of the need for this came Sunday night. The Spurs did not do this and it really impacted TP's effectiveness in there.

Maybe they did? Who knew Dre was going to blow up like that?

How'd you like that Demarr dunk? ;)

[TroyF]

Troy is a VERY good poster. Very neutral. Good guy.

Even though he thinks Melo will be a superstar.. Something we have debated in the past.


Thanks Phonz, but the other night only kept telling me what I already know about Melo. He played mature, didn't force shots and came up big when we needed him. The kid is 20 and the Spurs defensive gameplan is built on stopping him. They were even giving Bowen help in the post against him. That's respect and you don't get that respect if you aren't a special player.

As for the Camby thing, you are dead right Solid D. You have to be very physical with Marcus. You also have to run plays right at him and try to draw some fouls. He's a spy. No matter what you do, that's what the Nuggets will keep him as.

Thing about Marcus is, he's almost like a Duncan on defense. By that I mean no matter what you do, he's going to make his presence felt if he's on the floor. You have to just deal with that reality and figure out how to play around it.

I posted a few numbers up above. Here is another one for you. . .

After the all-star break, the Nuggets were 21-1 in games which Marcus Camby played.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

All I know so far is that if my life depends on Pop calling something innovative on offense in the playoffs, hand me the gun so I can go ahead and pull the trigger and get it over with.

[Phonzie20]

Thanks Phonz, but the other night only kept telling me what I already know about Melo. He played mature, didn't force shots and came up big when we needed him. The kid is 20 and the Spurs defensive gameplan is built on stopping him. They were even giving Bowen help in the post against him. That's respect and you don't get that respect if you aren't a special player.

As for the Camby thing, you are dead right Solid D. You have to be very physical with Marcus. You also have to run plays right at him and try to draw some fouls. He's a spy. No matter what you do, that's what the Nuggets will keep him as.

Thing about Marcus is, he's almost like a Duncan on defense. By that I mean no matter what you do, he's going to make his presence felt if he's on the floor. You have to just deal with that reality and figure out how to play around it.

I posted a few numbers up above. Here is another one for you. . .

After the all-star break, the Nuggets were 21-1 in games which Marcus Camby played.

I called Melo 'solid' on our board. I got crucified. I really don't think sportcenter is EVER going to open with him.... Gald to have him but come on... superstar?