Phil Jackson: Kobe Is Right Up There with MJ

[Tacker]

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/63777/20100102/jackson_kobe_is_right_up_there_with_mj/

Kobe Bryant has hit his fair share of game-winners this season and Lakers coach Phil Jackson compares him to Michael Jordan.

"These players -- I don't know how they get themselves into those positions, but they do an unbelievable job of hitting shots that are remarkable shots, marvelous shots," Jackson said after Bryant beat the Kings with a buzzer-beating three-pointer on Friday night.

"He's right there with Michael [Jordan] in that kind of breath you look at."

Jackson coached Jordan in Chicago and the pair won six championships together.

He has won four titles with Bryant in Los Angeles.

[HarlemHeat37]

It's funny that he had to say "in that kind of breath"..and who cares?..obviously Phil is going to say shit like this when it's HIS CURRENT PLAYER..

does everybody remember the shit Phil said about Kobe when he wasn't coaching?..it was pretty horrible stuff and very telling about Kobe..

numbers don't lie..

[BadOdor]

Cool story, ashraf.

[Venti Quattro]

Last night was not that marvelous or difficult of a shot. He was WIDE OPEN.

But he had put on the proper work to get open so maybe that's where the marvel comes from.

[Tacker]

Last night was not that marvelous or difficult of a shot. He was WIDE OPEN.

But he had put on the proper work to get open so maybe that's where the marvel comes from.

Or maybe MJ > KOBE no matter what the situation was?

[Venti Quattro]

Brah I didn't say that Kobe is greater than Jordan, and neither did Phil. He's in the same breath, not in a new or higher level.

[Iceman101]

The main difference between Kobe and MJ is that MJ was clutch when it mattered the most. From the start of the regular season, all the way through the finals. Now, Kobe is clutch, but can he carry a team the way MJ did in the finals? Yes he had Pippen, but Pippen wasn't a center, and one of the most dominant centers of all time that Kobe had.

[namlook]

The main difference between Kobe and MJ is that MJ was clutch when it mattered the most. From the start of the regular season, all the way through the finals. Now, Kobe is clutch, but can he carry a team the way MJ did in the finals? Yes he had Pippen, but Pippen wasn't a center, and one of the most dominant centers of all time that Kobe had.

Pippen was considered to be the best player in the game during one of Jordan's retirements. It's hilarious to hear people backpeddling and downplaying Pippen when Kobe's name comes up.

The Bulls won with defense and always had three players who were NBA all-defensive team members on their championship teams. Kobe never had the defensive talent around him that Jordan did. Jordan won without a great center because the Bulls had superior defenders.

[HarlemHeat37]

Pippen was considered to be the best player in the game during one of Jordan's retirements. It's hilarious to hear people backpeddling and downplaying Pippen when Kobe's name comes up.

The Bulls won with defense and always had three all-NBA defenders on their championship teams. Kobe never had the defensive talent around him that Jordan did. Jordan won without a great center because the Bulls had superior defenders.

:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:r ollin:rollin:rollin

[namlook]

:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:r ollin:rollin:rollin

You can laugh all you want but it's only because you weren't there. I was following the NBA at the time and what I am saying is 100% true. Many people said Pippen was the best all-around player in the game the year Pippen took the Bulls to 55 wins without Jordan. The Bulls went to game 7 of the semi-finals that year and lost game 7 on a bad ref call. With Pippen leading them they were essentially a conference finals team. Yes, he was that good.

[JoeTait75]

The main difference between Kobe and MJ is that MJ was clutch when it mattered the most. From the start of the regular season, all the way through the finals. Now, Kobe is clutch, but can he carry a team the way MJ did in the finals? Yes he had Pippen, but Pippen wasn't a center, and one of the most dominant centers of all time that Kobe had.

The main difference between Kobe and MJ is that MJ had to carry a losing franchise on his back for the first several seasons of his career. He had to do EVERYTHING for that team just to make it respectable. As brilliant and accomplished as Kobe is, he's never had to deal with that type of pressure. He came into a great situation with a great franchise and didn't have to be the Man right away.

[namlook]

The main difference between Kobe and MJ is that MJ had to carry a losing franchise on his back for the first several seasons of his career. He had to do EVERYTHING for that team just to make it respectable.

Not seeing your point. That's exactly what Kobe had to do in the mid 00's.

[HarlemHeat37]

You can laugh all you want but it's only because you weren't there. I was following the NBA at the time and what I am saying is 100% true. Many people said Pippen was the best all-around player in the game the year Pippen took the Bulls to 55 wins without Jordan. The Bulls went to game 7 of the semi-finals that year and lost game 7 on a bad ref call. With Pippen leading them they were essentially a conference finals team. Yes, he was that good.

Many people thought Pippen was the most versatile player in the NBA, hence the "all-around" comments..the majority of people did NOT think he was better than Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing or Malone, just to name a few..those guys aren't arguable..then there's a few others..

NOBODY EVER(majority) considered Scottie Pippen to be the best player in the NBA..it simply never happened, sorry..

[namlook]

Many people thought Pippen was the most versatile player in the NBA, hence the "all-around" comments..the majority of people did NOT think he was better than Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing or Malone, just to name a few..those guys aren't arguable..then there's a few others..

NOBODY EVER(majority) considered Scottie Pippen to be the best player in the NBA..it simply never happened, sorry..

Check the MVP voting that year to see you are wrong. I didn't say the majority because I don't know what the percentage was. I said many people considered Pippen to be the best player in basketball during a certain point of his career. I was there. You weren't or you wouldn't be saying it wasn't true. A large segment of people felt Pippen was the second best player in the NBA behind Jordan during some of the Bulls championships.

[JoeTait75]

Not seeing your point. That's exactly what Kobe had to do in the mid 00's.

Sure, after he'd been in the league for several years and won three championships. But he didn't have to step into that situation from the jump like MJ did. It would have been interesting to see how Kobe would have handled that.

[namlook]

Sure, after he'd been in the league for several years and won three championships. But he didn't have to step into that situation from the jump like MJ did.

What's the point? Who cares if Jordan played on bad teams.

[HarlemHeat37]

Check the MVP voting that year to see you are wrong.

he was #3 in one year and #7 in one year..I fail to see your point..

not only is MVP not an indication at all of the best player in the NBA, but Pippen never even won one..

[HarlemHeat37]

LOL @ namlook changing his post..

[namlook]

LOL @ namlook changing his post..

LOL at HarlemHeat37 looking like a douche.

[namlook]

he was #3 in one year and #7 in one year..I fail to see your point..

not only is MVP not an indication at all of the best player in the NBA, but Pippen never even won one..

The point is many people held Pippen's game in very high regard. he was first team all NBA and 1st team all-defense multiple seasons. Anyone that downplays Pippen's game is a complete joke.

[HarlemHeat37]

So now I'm downplaying Pippen's game because I said he was never the best player in the NBA?..

Obviously Pippen was a great player..he's one of the most versatile players of all-time, and a top 3 perimeter defender of all-time, if not the best perimeter defender..

I only commented on him because YOU said he was considered to be the best player in the NBA, which is just a ridiculous comment when guys like Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Malone and Shaq are around and in their primes(minus Shaq)..

[JoeTait75]

What's the point? Who cares if Jordan played on bad teams.

It matters because championships are given such importance in any discussion of who the greatest players are. And if the number of rings matters, how far a player had to go to get those rings matters as well.

[namlook]

So now I'm downplaying Pippen's game because I said he was never the best player in the NBA?..

Obviously Pippen was a great player..he's one of the most versatile players of all-time, and a top 3 perimeter defender of all-time, if not the best perimeter defender..

I only commented on him because YOU said he was considered to be the best player in the NBA..

I am stating a fact that I know to be true:

MANY PEOPLE FELT PIPPEN WAS THE BEST PLAYER IN BASKETBALL WHEN JORDAN RETIRED AND THE BULLS WON 55 GAMES. MANY PEOPLE ALSO FELT PIPPEN WAS THE SECOND BEST PLAYER IN BASKETBALL DURING SOME OF THE BULLS CHAMPIONSHIPS.

If you dispute that many people felt this way you either weren't following basketball at the time and you are speaking out of ignorance, or you are lying.

[MiamiHeat]

ok

so

do the Laker fans want us to bash Kobe again?

Why are there 3-5 threads about Kobe again in the NBA forum, made by laker fans?

[namlook]

And he responded by whining and crying like a little bitch, demanding to be traded, until Jerry West gave him what he wanted.

Jordan just sucked it up and did his business like a man until the help came.

BULLSHIT.

Jordan was whining like a baby at management and his teammates when the Bulls were losing. Here's a few of his quotes:

Whining about management:

"Five more years and I'm out of here. I'm marking these days on a calendar, like I'm in jail. I'm tired of being used by this organization, by the league, by the writers, by everyone."

"They're not interested in winning. They just want to sell tickets, which they can do because of me. They won't make any deals to make us better. And this Kukoc thing. I hate that. They're spending all their time chasing this guy."

"If I were a general manager, we'd be a better team."

"I know what's gonna happen. We'll wait until the last minute and then they'll say something like they couldn't get a deal done because of the cap or somebody pulled out at the last minute. It happens here all the time. I don't know why I'm surprised every year."

Whining about teammates:

"They've got no idea what it's all about. The white guys, they work hard, but they don't have the talent. And the rest of them? Who knows what to expect? They're not good for much of anything."

"I hate when I have to read that in the papers the next day, that I couldn't do something. It wasn't my fault."

"You're an idiot. You've screwed up every play we ever ran. You're too stupid to even remember the plays. We ought to get rid of you." - Michael to Horace Grant

"I hate being out there with those garbagemen. They don't get you the ball."

"If you [pass the ball to Bill Cartwright], you'll never get the ball from me."

"He can't do anything with the ball. Don't give it to him." - Michael yelling at Paxson who passed the ball to Perdue

"I'm sure everything will be fine if we win, but if we start losing, I'm shooting."

Yeah Jordan really sucked it up didn't he? LOL.

[namlook]

and not one of those quotes was said DIRECTLY TO THE MEDIA. Every player in the league bitches about their team privately. Not every player is a little faggot like Kobe who cries directly to the media and demands a trade.

LOL. You don't know who he said each of those statements to.

The fact remains, Jordan was a whining, crying, complaining bitch when he played on bad teams.

[Rogue]

and not one of those quotes was said DIRECTLY TO THE MEDIA. Every player in the league bitches about their team privately. Not every player is a little faggot like Kobe who cries directly to the media and demands a trade.
sup mono.

[namlook]

Yes I do, you got every one of those quotes from The Jordan Rules, where Sam Smith was given permission to go into PRIVATE AREAS like team practices and team meetings. Not one of those quotes was from Jordan talking directly to the media.

You don't know where each of those quotes came from. Period. Sam Smith took information from everywhere, including Jordan's statements to the media.

[namlook]

Jordan whined and cried when he played on bad teams. Go back and read those quotes again. LOL.

I know what book the quotes came from but I'm saying Sam Smith used a lot of different sources for the quotes he published in his book and some of the sources for material for his book came from statements Jordan made to the media.

[23LeBronJames23]

namlook just made him self look dumber than tacker. If thats possible

[namlook]

Pippen did not have a better career than Hakeem but that's irrelevant to what I said. I said that many people felt Pippen was the best player in basketball for a period of time. That many people held Pippen in such high regard is a fact that cannot be disputed.

[namlook]

namlook just made him self look dumber than tacker. If thats possible

Yeah I'm dumber than a tack by posting facts. Haha. LOL. I have a graduate school degree and have been following basketball since the late 70's. Yeah I'm really dumb. LOL.

How about you? High school diploma? Yeah...that's what I thought.

[LakeShow]

namlook just made him self look dumber than tacker. If thats possible

I don't know how you can say that. We're obviously reading different threads. Namlook OWNED the fuck out of this thread. :lol

[LakeShow]

lol, rockets fan.

lol, mono

[Tacker]

Theres not one Great player who doesnt constantly get on his teammates to make sure they are doing what they're supposed to do, this is what separates great leaders from wannabe ones. For MJ to get on his teammates like this just shows how competitive and how much leadership he has and how much he wants to win. This is why he is the greatest player to ever the game.

You think Kobe doesn't shit on his teammates? The other day on Sports Center they showed a clip of Kobe Bryant elbowing Sasha Vujaic and jawing at him during practice. They were about to get in a fight. So what if MJ gets on is teammates, thats what Great Leaders are supposed to do.

Didn't Kobe ask to be traded when he wasnt surrounded with good teammates back in the 07 season?

[LakeShow]

good comeback Rockets Fan :tu

:lol Give it up man. He already owned the fuck out of you.

[resistanze]

I don't think Pippen was considered better than Robinson and Shaq, let alone Hakeem during Jordan's retirement.

[namlook]

It sure the fuck can.

NOBODY thought Pippen was the best player in basketball EVER. and NOBODY thought he was better than Hakeem during Jordan's retirement.


Yes, It's true, many people thought Pippen was the best player after Jordan for a certain period of time. It's not that hard to understand why. The Bulls had won three rings and Hakeem hadn't won anything at the time. DOH!

[Mavs_man_41]

:lol Give it up man. He already owned the fuck out of you.

yeah, namlook sure owned the fuck outta him, with his awesome pippen > the 2nd best player of the modern era takes :rolleyes

[namlook]

Theres not one Great player who doesnt constantly get on his teammates to make sure they are doing what they're supposed to do, this is what separates great leaders from wannabe ones. For MJ to get on his teammates like this just shows how competitive and how much leadership he has and how much he wants to win. This is why he is the greatest player to ever the game.

You think Kobe doesn't shit on his teammates? The other day on Sports Center they showed a clip of Kobe Bryant elbowing Sasha Vujaic and jawing at him during practice. They were about to get in a fight. So what if MJ gets on is teammates, thats what Great Leaders are supposed to do.


It's a clear double standard though. When Jordan whines and gets on management and teammates he is showing leadership, when Kobe does it he's just whining. Jordan punched teammates in practice. Jordan was an asshole of a human being. Great player, but he was an asshole, he was self-absorbed, egotistical and a jerk. Go ahead and call Kobe that too if you want, but Jordan was the same way.

[namlook]

yeah, namlook sure owned the fuck outta him, with his awesome pippen > the 2nd best player of the modern era takes :rolleyes

READING COMPREHENSION PEOPLE.

I didn't say Pippen was a better player than Hakeem. I said for a period of time many people felt Pippen was the best player in basketball. At that time Pippen and Jordan had won three rings and Hakeem had won nothing. After Hakeem won a couple rings those feelings changed.

[21_Blessings]

Pippen was top 5 or 3 in MVP voting the year after MJ retired. The Bulls were a bad call away from the ECF without Jordan.

[Iceman101]

I am stating a fact that I know to be true:

MANY PEOPLE FELT PIPPEN WAS THE BEST PLAYER IN BASKETBALL WHEN JORDAN RETIRED AND THE BULLS WON 55 GAMES. MANY PEOPLE ALSO FELT PIPPEN WAS THE SECOND BEST PLAYER IN BASKETBALL DURING SOME OF THE BULLS CHAMPIONSHIPS.

If you dispute that many people felt this way you either weren't following basketball at the time and you are speaking out of ignorance, or you are lying.

That doesn't make it true

[21_Blessings]

So you're saying that many people DIDN'T think he was the best player since he didn't win MVP. Thanks for stating the obvious.

No I'm saying Jordan won 6 titles next to the greatest defensive shooting forward ever. A top 5 overall player in the NBA during that era.

Kobe would have won 6 with that Bulls roster. :toast

[Iceman101]

No I'm saying Jordan won 6 titles next to the greatest defensive shooting forward ever. A top 5 overall player in the NBA during that era.

Kobe would have won 6 with that Bulls roster. :toast

You got your sarcasm working great for u

[namlook]

:lmao so you're talking about one offseason?

and I'd still like you to prove that "many people" thought this, because so far it's just you.

I'm saying that when Pippen and Jordan were winning rings and Pippen won 55 games leading the Bulls without Jordan that many people were calling Pippen the best player in basketball. He was playing at that high of a level.

[Iceman101]

Kobe models his game after MJ...When MJ came along he didn't have to model it after anybody, it just came natural to him

[j.dizzle]

:lol this forum is fuckin comedy..i wonder how many ppl here spend half their days arguing for & against kobe..pretty sad

[namlook]

That doesn't make it true

You're right, it doesn't make it true. It was only an opinion. I'm not saying that this was my opinion either. I'm saying Pippen was playing at such a high level in his prime, that many people felt this way.

[Tacker]

I'm saying that when Pippen and Jordan were winning rings and Pippen won 55 games leading the Bulls without Jordan that many people were calling Pippen the best player in basketball. He was playing at that high of a level.

Bullshit, I highly doubt that after one season and after all those Titles Jordan led them to and after all those years of Jordan Dynasty that people are stupid enough to all of a sudden slap the GOAT tag on Scottie Pippen...

[namlook]

Bullshit, I highly doubt that after one season and after all those Titles Jordan led them to and after all those years of Jordan Dynasty that people are stupid enough to all of a sudden slap the GOAT tag on Scottie Pippen...

Greatest Of All Time? No. No one ever felt Pippen was the greatest of all time even when he was at the top of his game.

Jordan's teams sucked before Pippen arrived. Jordan only started wining when Pippen showed up. So yes, Pippen got a lot of credit for those championships. Not so much that anyone felt he was better than Jordan though.

The Jordan/Pippen dynamic is a lot like the Kobe/Gasol dynamic. Everyone knows Kobe is the man on that team but Gasol is getting lots of love right now. Mark Stein called him the MVP of the season so far. Pippen got similar love when he played and was winning with Jordan.

[Ice009]

It's funny that he had to say "in that kind of breath"..and who cares?..obviously Phil is going to say shit like this when it's HIS CURRENT PLAYER..

does everybody remember the shit Phil said about Kobe when he wasn't coaching?..it was pretty horrible stuff and very telling about Kobe..

numbers don't lie..

What exactly did Phil say when he left the Lakers? I didn't read the book or saw any of the comments from it that I can recall. He probably had the same opinion as me at the time ;).

[cobbler]

Sure, after he'd been in the league for several years and won three championships. But he didn't have to step into that situation from the jump like MJ did. It would have been interesting to see how Kobe would have handled that.

Jordan did have the advantage of 3 years under Dean Smith though. You cannot exclude that experience.

[Tacker]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/lakers/2004-10-12-jackson-book_x.htm

The diary of the 2003-04 season, titled The Last Season: A Team in Search of Its Soul, will be released this month. An excerpt of the book will be published in next week's issue of Los Angeles magazine.

"I do know that there were many occasions this year when I felt like there was a psychological war going on between us," Jackson wrote. "Amazingly, we came to a truce, even to a higher level of trust. Ultimately, though, I don't believe we developed enough trust between us to win a championship."

Jackson said the strain between him and Bryant led him to hire a therapist to consult with during the season, according to the Los Angeles Times, which printed excerpts from the magazine article in its Tuesday edition.

Jackson wrote he became so frustrated with Bryant that he told general manager Mitch Kupchak in January, "I won't coach this team next year if he is still here. He won't listen to anyone. I've had it with this kid."

"It's no sweat for me, man," Bryant said. "He's a great coach. I really learned a lot from him and I respect him from that standpoint. But this is a new challenge for me here, so I'm not going to belabor what somebody might say from past events."

Jackson wrote he became so frustrated with Bryant that he told general manager Mitch Kupchak in January: "I won't coach this team next year if he is still here. He won't listen to anyone. I've had it with this kid."

Bryant was aware of Jackson's ultimatum.

"I heard something like that, but I wasn't going to let that come between me and the team," Bryant said. "

It was not the first time Jackson requested the team trade Bryant. He sought to trade him to the Phoenix Suns for Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion in the 1999-00 season. But then-general manager Jerry West told Jackson that owner Jerry Buss would never trade the Laker star, he wrote in his diary. Jackson said he was told the same thing last season.

"He keeps diaries all the time. I mean, this is his fifth or sixth book," Bryant said. "I'd rather read 'Lord of the Rings' in one day. You know what I'm saying? But I wish him all the best with his book. Obviously, he has something else to focus on."

The Lakers released a statement on behalf of Buss and Kupchak, saying Jackson's book contained "several inaccuracies" but declined to elaborate.

"There are anecdotes that portray things that took place or were said in private, closed door meetings," the statement said. "While Phil has chosen to go public with some of what took place in these meetings, we will respect the spirit of privacy which we feel should be maintained and therefore will not respond to these entries.

"It should be remembered that most of what is contained are Phil's opinions and should be taken with that understanding, not as fact," the statement said.

During last week's training camp, Bryant said he misses Jackson.

"We've had our tough times, we had our share of arguments, but I've always respected him as a coach," he said.

Jackson became exasperated with the feuding between Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal.

"At times the pettiness between the two of them can be unbelievably juvenile," he wrote.

Jackson wrote that Bryant was angry that O'Neal received allowances from the Lakers organization, but that "nobody this year, or in any year I've coached, has received more 'allowances' than Kobe Bryant."

Among those allowances was the Lakers organization's partial payment for the private jets Bryant took to Colorado for the hearings in his rape case.

Bryant complained about the kind of plane he was given to fly to Colorado, Jackson wrote, adding "He should feel fortunate that he's not footing the bill himself."

Jackson said he became conditioned to blame Bryant, even when it wasn't the player's fault.

The sexual assault charge against Bryant was dismissed last month at his accuser's request, but he still faces a lawsuit filed in Denver by the woman.

Bryant told Jackson that O'Neal's presence on the team would affect his decision to stay with the Lakers, adding, "I'm tired of being a sidekick," Jackson wrote.

Bryant has said he had no role in Jackson or O'Neal's departure from the team. Jackson retired, and O'Neal was traded to the Miami Heat. Buss also said the decision to trade O'Neal was made independently of Bryant.

Jackson said he had run-ins with O'Neal as well but that coaching him was "an experience I will cherish forever."

[MiamiHeat]

Wat the fuck is with the Laker fascination with bashing the GOAT Michael Jordan?

Do they think we give a fuck what they post, as if bashing MJ elevates Kobe or something?

Laker fans, stfu.

[JoeTait75]

Jordan did have the advantage of 3 years under Dean Smith though. You cannot exclude that experience.

Fair point.

[namlook]

Jordan did have the advantage of 3 years under Dean Smith though. You cannot exclude that experience.

True. A more fair comparison would be Kobe at the same age. You can't compare what Kobe would do on a bad team at age 17 to what Jordan did with a bad team after three years of college.

[Ice009]

Kobe models his game after MJ...When MJ came along he didn't have to model it after anybody, it just came natural to him

It is also quite possible to say that if you put Kobe on that Bulls team they would have been first round playoff fodder because Kobe wouldn't have had Jordan to model his game around. With out that MJ model you would probably see Kobe's real game where he ball hogs and takes 40 shots a game.

Kobe has used Jordan's game to help his own. Jordan used his own game.

[JoeTait75]

Kobe models his game after MJ...When MJ came along he didn't have to model it after anybody, it just came natural to him

Hard to believe MJ didn't have his own influences. Guys like David Thompson.

[MiamiHeat]

By acclamation, Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time. Although, a summary of his basketball career and influence on the game inevitably fails to do it justice, as a phenomenal athlete with a unique combination of fundamental soundness, grace, speed, power, artistry, improvisational ability and an unquenchable competitive desire, Jordan single-handedly redefined the NBA superstar.

Even contemporaneous superstars recognized the unparalleled position of Jordan. Magic Johnson said, "There's Michael Jordan and then there is the rest of us." Larry Bird, following a playoff game where Jordan dropped 63 points on the Boston Celtics in just his second season, appraisal of the young player was: "God disguised as Michael Jordan.

A brief listing of his top accomplishments would include the following: Rookie of the Year; Five-time NBA MVP; Six-time NBA champion; Six-time NBA Finals MVP; Ten-time All-NBA First Team; Nine time NBA All-Defensive First Team; Defensive Player of the Year; 14-time NBA All-Star; Three-time NBA All-Star MVP; 50th Anniversary All-Time Team; Ten scoring titles -- an NBA record and seven consecutive matching Wilt Chamberlain; Retired with the NBA's highest scoring average of 30.1ppg.



However, his impact is far greater than awards and championships. He burst into the league as a rookie sensation scoring in droves with an unmatchable first step and acrobatic drives and dunks and concluded his career as a cultural icon. Along the way, he became a true champion who spearheaded the globalization of the NBA with his dynamic on court abilities and personal sense of style that was marketed to the masses.

He was an accessible star who managed to maintain an air of mystique. He was visible as "Air Jordan," as part of a sneaker advertising campaign and endorsing other products as well as the star of the movie, Space Jam. However, he would vanish into retirement twice only to return until hanging up the sneakers for the last time after the 2002-03 season.

Although Brooklyn born, Jordan was bred in the more tranquil North Carolina. The son of Delores and James Jordan, he shared a special bond with his father, which included baseball being both of their first love. However, following his older brother, Larry, whom he idolized and was a spectacular athlete in his own right, Jordan began to play basketball.

He attended Laney High school in Wilmington, North Carolina, but as a 5-11 skinny sophomore, he was cut from the varsity basketball team. The summer before his junior year, he grew to 6-3 and began his path to super-stardom.

A Tar Heel at heart, the high school All-American attended the University of North Carolina. As a freshman, he played somewhat in the shadows of upperclassmen James Worthy and Sam Perkins. However, he shone in the spotlight of the NCAA Championship game against Georgetown and another great freshman Patrick Ewing, whom he would foil future NBA championships for as well. Jordan scored 16 points, grabbed nine rebounds and made the winning basket on a 16-foot jumper with 18 seconds in the game for the 63-62 victory.

As a sophomore, he was named College Player of the Year by The Sporting News. As a junior, he received that award again as well as the Naismith and Wooden Awards. After his junior year he was chosen with the third overall pick in the 1984 NBA Draft by the Chicago Bulls.

The Houston Rockets selected 7-0 center Hakeem Olajuwon form the University of Houston with the No.1 pick, which most expected. The Portland Trail Blazers, however, with the No. 2 pick chose 7-1 center Sam Bowie from Kentucky, which was not as anticipated. Bowie had suffered several injuries while in college but the Blazers bypassed Jordan because just the year before the team selected another exciting shooting guard in Clyde Drexler. Although Drexler went onto to be a star, Bowie was an injury prone player with a journeyman pro career

However, Jordan, coming off a gold medal performance at the 1984 Olympics prospered in the pro game with a fabulous first season, earning the NBA Rookie of the Year Award. He averaged 28.2 ppg, (third behind Bernard King and Bird) 6.5 rpg and 5.9 apg. He also was selected to the All-NBA Second Team. Perhaps more important, the Bulls improved to win 11 more games than in the season prior to his arrival and made it to the playoffs. Jordan averaged 29.3 ppg in the first round series, but the Bulls lost in four games to the Milwaukee Bucks.

In his first season, he did not have outstanding shooting range and was thought to roam to often on defense resulting from playing trapping defenses in college according to his first NBA coach, Kevin Loughery. Yet, his medium game -- eight to 15-feet from the basket was impressive as evidenced by his .515 field-goal shooting percentage and his steals tended to compensate for his less than stellar straight-up defense. Improvement in both areas would come and he would ultimately be regarded as threat from anywhere on the floor and one of the best ever one-on-one defenders.

"There's Michael Jordan and then there is the rest of us."

-- Magic Johnson

Even in the exhibition season before his rookie campaign, players and coaches were sure that the Rockets and Blazers would regret their picks. King, the eventual leading scorer for that upcoming season, seemed sure as well when he spoke to Hoop magazine after a 1984 preseason game.

"All I can say," King says, "is that the people in Chicago are in for a real treat."

He was right. Jordan's greatness and likeabilty was apparent in just his first season. Home attendance at the venerable Chicago Stadium and on the road rose dramatically. Fans of opposing teams were seemingly content to see their team lose if in return Jordan put on show.

Jordan's personal style was equally authentic and unique as his basketball skills. Nike signed him to a major shoe deal because of his anticipated appeal, but he surpassed even the loftiest of expectations. One version of the sneakers he wore in his first preseason was an unseen before blend of his team's red and black colors that the NBA initially considered in violation of the "uniformity of uniform rule." Subject to fines if he continued to wear them, he occasionally did and the demand for that version and others in the Air Jordan line was unprecedented.

He also had a clause in his contract that allowed him, unlike most other NBA players, to play basketball anytime in the off-season -- known as the "love-of-the-game clause."

He dangled his tongue out of his mouth -- picked up from observing his dad working on mechanical devices -- as he levitated toward the basket and it became one of his first trademarks in personal style. He continued to wear the shorts of his beloved North Carolina basketball uniform under his Bulls uniform. This may have led him to wear longer game shorts although he has said that the extra length allowed him to bend at the waist and tug at the hem for a good resting position. Either way, the trend toward the baggy shorts was started and the entire league and sport would follow.

The rookie's mesmerizing effect was even suggested to have extended to referees as it was said that he was getting veteran preferential treatment allowing him to take that additional step on route to the basket rather than being whistle for a travelling violation. Many assessed that he eluded defenders so easily that he had to be travelling. However, video break down established that his first step was just so quick and that he was not in violation of the rulebook.

Despite all the attention, Jordan retained a sense of humility. He did not ridicule the Blazers for not taking him. Early on in his first season, he told Sports Illustrated, "He [Bowie] fits in better than I would. They have an overabundance of big guards and small forwards." His self-effacement was more apparent when in that same article he said, "I'd like to play in at least one All-Star game."

That goal was quickly accomplished as later that season he was voted a starter to the 1985 All-Star East squad. There, he probably faced one of his first professional obstacles. The media ran with the idea that Eastern All-Star teammate Detroit Pistons' Isiah Thomas, had led a "freeze-out" of the golden rookie limiting his opportunities to score by not passing him the ball.

Jordan scored seven points in 22 minutes and was left to face questions concerning the alleged conspiracy. The affair grew a life of its own over the years, but Thomas refuted such accusations. The whole ordeal would come full circle when Thomas, as the coach of the 2003 East All-Star squad, persuaded Toronto Raptors' Vince Carter to relinquish his starting role to Jordan in his last midseason classic.

Three games into his second season, he broke a bone in his left foot. He was voted to the All-Star team but could not play as he was sidelined for 64 games. However, he came back late in the year to score a NBA playoff-record 63 points in a first-round game against the Celtics. The Bulls lost that game 132-131 in double-overtime and the series in a sweep, but Jordan averaged 43.7 ppg in the series. If there were any doubters to that point about Jordan's ability, surely there were no more.

Starting with the 1986-87 season he began a career-long onslaught on the NBA record book. That year saw him average 37.1 points in the first of seven consecutive seasons in which he led the league in scoring and topped 30 points per contest. Jordan scored 40 or more points in nine consecutive games and 23 straight in one game to set an NBA record. At the All-Star Weekend, he won the first of two consecutive Slam Dunk com petitions. However, again, the Celtics swept the Bulls in the first-round of the playoffs

That off-season, the Bulls began assembling a championship caliber team by drafting power forward Horace Grant and acquiring the versatile small forward Scottie Pippen from tiny Central Arkansas in a draft day trade with the Seattle SuperSonics for former University of Virgina center Olden Polyinice. In 1987-88, Jordan won every major award including MVP, Defensive Player of the Year and All-Star MVP. With the help of his teammates, Jordan led the Bulls to a first-round playoff win over the Cleveland Cavaliers before falling to the Pistons in five games in the conference semifinals.

The Pistons known as the "Bad Boys" for its aggressive style of play would defeat Jordan and the Bulls in the Eastern Conference Finals in the next two seasons as well. Utilizing a defensive scheme developed by Head Coach Chuck Daly and his staff, known as the "Jordan Rules", the Pistons dared Jordan to single-handily win games with constant double and triple teaming. The Bulls, however, were nudging to a championship as each successive season the team would get closer.

In the 1988-89 season, perhaps Jordan's best statistical campaign, he led the league with 32.5 ppg, was tenth in assists with a career high 8.0 apg and had a career high 8.0 rpg. He also ranked third in steals with 2.89 per game. Jordan propelled the Bulls past the Cavs in the first round of the playoffs as in the decisive Game 5; he scored the memorable buzzer beater-floating jumper over Craig Ehlo for a 101-100 victory.

Prior to the beginning of the 1989-90 season, Sports Illustrated published an article on Jordan's emerging golf game and his thoughts about joining the PGA tour after his NBA career was over. Chicago management, however, was making other moves.

That off-season, the Bulls let go Head Coach Doug Collins and hired Phil Jackson. Under Jackson's leadership, the Bulls instituted the triangle offense --a fluid passing and cutting system that created opportunities for all five players on the floor to score, but when the play broke down and the shot clock waned, Jordan had free reign to create his own shot.

The Bulls went 55-27 that season, the franchise's best record since 1971-72. Jordan set his career game-high in points with 69 against the Cavs in a 117-113 overtime win. He also emerged as a three-point threat, posting a .376 percentage -- 100 percentage points above his previous best. However, the Pistons defeated the Bulls in a tough seven game series in the 1990 Eastern Conference Finals.

That third consecutive playoff defeat to the Pistons prompted many to think out-loud that a scoring champion like Jordan could not lead his team to a title.

Were they ever wrong. The next year, Jordan led the Bulls as the team waltzed through the postseason losing only twice en route to the franchise's first NBA title. The redemptive blow was the sweep of the Pistons in the conference finals. And after losing the first game at home to the Los Angeles Lakers in the NBA Finals, the Bulls stormed back to win four straight to end the last remnants of the "Showtime" Lakers as Magic Johnson would retire before the beginning of the next season. Jordan averaged 31.4 ppg, 6.4 rpg and 8.4 apg earning the first of six NBA Finals MVP awards.

Jordan, who by now shaved his head completely bald triggering another trend and making him recognizable by just the dark rounded silhouette of his head, was now known as a champion. He was also known to be ultra-demanding of his teammates, ruffling more than a few feathers with his critiques. But winning was the soothing elixir. The Bulls would go on to successfully defend its title for two consecutive seasons, defeating both Drexler and the Blazers and the Charles Barkley-led Phoenix Suns in six games.

By the end of that three-year run, Jordan had eclipsed stardom and approached folk hero status. Early into his career, he drew Peter Pan like admiration for his gravity defying leaps and belief that he would remain youthful forever. However, during the three-peat, players and teams seemed to concede that the title was Jordan. He garnered a legion of fans young and old alike but in particular to kids he was a Pied Piper figure who were asked to follow him with his sports drink "Be Like Mike" advertising campaign.

In the 1992 Finals, Jordan opened up Game 1 with a record setting 35-point first-half performance to lead the Bulls to a 122-89 rout. Jordan seemed unstoppable as he drained several three-pointers over Blazer defenders and after one made three he shrugged his shoulders as if to say, I don't even know what's going on here. The Blazers bounced back and seemed poised to force a Game 7 as it took a 79-64 lead into the fourth quarter of Game 6. However, the Bulls roared back for a 97-93 series clinching win.

In 1993, Jordan led the Bulls past the Patrick Ewing-led Knicks for the fourth time in five postseasons -- this time in the Eastern Conference Finals in six games with out the home court advantage. Jordan scored 54 points in a 105-95 Game 4 win. And in the series' turning point that was Game 5, Jordan recorded a triple double (29 points, 10 rebounds and 14 assists). But the crucial play was Pippen's successive blocks of putback attempts by the Knicks' Charles Smith in the final seconds that allowed the Bulls to escape the Garden with a 97-94 win. The Bulls sealed the series with a 96-88 victory in Game 6.

In the Finals, Jordan set a Finals record as he posted a 41.0 ppg average in the six game series victory over the Suns. In the decisive Game Six, the Bulls again stormed back to overcome a fourth quarter deficit. This time, Jordan scored nine straight points down the stretch leading to John Paxson's game winning three-pointer with 3.9 seconds on the clock for a 98-97 victory.

That summer, Jordan was the key figure in forming the Dream Team that competed in the 1992 Olympics in Barcelona, Spain. The 12-member roster, full of the era's best players were respected as basketball royalty by its opponents whom they outclassed on the way to the gold medal and idolized like pop icons by the world's fans.

But trouble was brewing. Jordan was under scrutiny for what was thought to be poor decisions with respect to his gambling endeavors. But that paled in comparison to the loss of his father who was murdered during an armed robbery. His father was Jordan's main confidant whom could be seen with his son on a regular basis as he climbed the ladder of success.

Emotionally drained and seeking new challenges, just one day before the start of training camp, Jordan stunned the basketball world by announcing his retirement.

After much speculation about his plans, Jordan returned to the spotlight in a baseball uniform. Attempting to fulfill a dream inspired by his father, the younger Jordan set his sights on Major League Baseball. He spent the 1994 baseball season playing for the Birmingham Barons, an affiliate of the Chicago White Sox in the Class AA Southern League.

He was a competent if unspectacular performer. But Jordan's hope of reaching the big leagues seemed dim, and with Major League Baseball embroiled in a labor dispute as the 1995 season neared, he focused his competitive fire back on the NBA. Late in the 1994-95 NBA season, he came out of retirement with the succinct statement of "I'm Back."

He was back, albeit with the unorthodox No. 45 as he wanted to leave No. 23 behind, and attempted to carry the Bulls to another title. Jordan averaged 26.9 points in 17 regular-season games, which the Bulls played to a record of 13-4.

The most memorable game of the initial comeback occurred six games in when he scored 55 points against the Knicks in the Garden. That game, dubbed "Double Nickel," was extraordinary in that a new Jordan emerged. Robbed of his youthful bounce at age 32, he turned primarily to fade-away jump shots and spinning layups. And in the waning moments of a tie game, he drew attention as he dribbled around the perimeter then passed to a wide-open Bill Wennington under the basket for the winning points in a 113-111 victory.

His coach, Jackson, in the aftermath said, "It's rare that players can live quite up to New York. I've seen a lot of them fall flat on their faces because of the pressure to perform there. But he had the whole evening in the palm of his hand. Sometimes the game just seems to gravitate into his grasp."

In the playoffs, he poured in 31.5 ppg. But despite Jordan's presence in the lineup, the Bulls didn't have quite enough to get past the Orlando Magic in the conference semifinals. Chicago lost to the Shaquille O'Neal-led Magic in six games.

Jordan's championship quest was fulfilled the following season with almost a whole new band of players than in his first title runs. He began the season with his old No. 23 uniform but only his sidekick Pippen remaining from the first three championship teams. The Bulls added Dennis Rodman, an enigmatic player but a rebounding and defensive phenom.

The team enjoyed one of the most remarkable years ever posted by any club. Jordan led the NBA with 30.4 ppg as the Bulls charged to a record 72 victories during the regular season, then stormed through the playoffs with a 15-3 record ending in a six game series win over the Sonics.

Poignantly, Jordan recaptured the title on Father's Day and cradled the ball after the decisive game in a heap on the floor of the United Center, which replaced Chicago Stadium during his retirement, unabashedly crying. The emotional impact of the moment was overwhelming.

Along the way, Jordan captured the MVP awards for the regular season, All-Star Game and Finals, joining Willis Reed (1970) as the only men to win all three honors in the same season.

Although he had relinquished the MVP award to Karl Malone in 1996-97, Jordan was awarded MVP in 1997-98 and again led the Bulls to the NBA Championship with a satisfying six-game victory over Malone's Utah Jazz. Despite a horrible case of stomach flu in a critical Game Five, he would not let his team lose. He scored 38 points and the Bulls won the game and then the title at home in Game Six. He was also named the NBA Finals MVP for the fifth time.

The Bulls duplicated the three-peat in 1998-99 with another six game series win over the Jazz. Jordan with his team down three points at the close of Game Six, scored on driving move to the basket. And on the next Jazz possession, he stole the ball from Malone in the post to set-up his game winning jump shot. The shot over Bryon Russell with 6.6 seconds left on the clock is etched in many fans mind and photographic history.

After labor negotiations were resolved leaving a shortened season in 1999; Jordan left the game saying, "Right now I don't have the mental challenges that I have had in the past to proceed as a basketball player." Despite not playing for three seasons during his second retirement, Jordan was still probably the most recognizable athlete in the world.

However, after assuming an ownership and team executive role with the Washington Wizards in 2000, he returned to play the game he loves, after being visibly frustrated in the owners' box with the team's performance. On Sept. 25, 2001, he signed a two-year contract with the Wizards for the veteran's minimum.

Jordan brought in his old Bulls' coach Doug Collins and tried mightily to revive a once accomplished franchise that had sunken to moribund levels. But the Wizards, although an attendance draw around the league, failed to make the playoffs in Jordan's two years. However, moments of the great Jordan were apparent such as scoring 40 points a few days after his 40th birthday in the 2002-03 season.

He left as a player to return to an ownership and executive role with the belief that with the cluster of young stars, the NBA was in fine shape. Above all, Jordan recognized his place in the game. In his book, For The Love of The Game: My Story, Jordan wrote: "There is no such thing as a perfect basketball player, and I don't believe there is only one greatest player either. Everyone plays in different eras. I built my talents on the shoulders of someone else's talent. I believe greatness is an evolutionary process that changes and evolves era to era. Without Julius Erving, David Thompson, Walter Davis, and Elgin Baylor there would never have been a Michael Jordan. I evolved from them."

At the turn of the 21st century, ESPN, the preeminent all-sports network, conducted an expansive survey of media members, athletes and others associated with the sports world to rank the 20th century's greatest athletes. Jordan topped the list above Babe Ruth and Muhammad Ali -- substantiating his link to those earlier cultural icons.

[Capt Bringdown]

A big difference between Kobe and MJ is that the league didn't engineer absurdly lop-sided trades to help out the Bulls. But all this will forgotten as Kobe and PJ inevitably pass Jordan's 6 title mark.
The NBA's most successful marketing narratives are "progress," as in passing the torch, etc, and "the best ever." They don't know how to sell parity as the NFL does.

[MiamiHeat]

WHY MICHAEL JORDAN IS THE GREATEST ATHLETE OF ALL TIME

Ah yes, the greatest athlete of all-time. It is a tricky debate that comes up every few years, and now that Tiger Woods is dominating again in golf, everyone wants to know where he stands. But is he really a great athlete, and can he stand
up to the all-time greats who competed in more physically demanding sports?

Personally, I would say no. More on that later. My choice, and this is saying something coming from a die-hard Detroit fan who hates all things Chicago, is Michael Jordan. Over the years, my hate for him has transformed into respect for his accomplishments and the way he dominated basketball for so long.

Now that I’ve given you my choice, I will delve deeper into the question of what it takes to be considered the greatest athlete of all-time.

First, the preface: an athlete has to be someone who engages in a rigorous sport of which conditioning and skills such as speed, strength, and endurance are a factor. When I think of an athlete, I definitely do not picture any of the following: bowler, dart thrower, cup stacker (thanks for nothing, ESPN!), competitive eater, and finally, golfer. No offense to those activities but they are not played by athletes. Go ahead and look up the definition and you’ll see what I mean.

Second, the premise: the greatest athlete of all-time is someone who dominated his or her sport and remained at the top for a long period of time while making the impossible seem routine. Now, let me tell you why some other popular figures are not the greatest of all-time.

Babe Ruth is arguably the greatest baseball player of all-time (and most of the people who argue against him will lose that argument, especially considering his pitching prowess), but he is out of the discussion because of his lack of physical conditioning. That's not to say a baseball player can’t ascend to the throne, but there has to be reason to believe that he could be a great player in other sports. If Bo Jackson or Ken Griffey, Jr. had set the home run record and stole a bunch of bases while displaying all-around athletic prowess, for example, I would be much more willing to listen to an argument for them. It all goes back to that portrait of an athlete we have in our heads.

Tiger Woods certainly fits that portrait, and he has dominated golf like no one else. And since the omnipresent opinion-slingers of today’s high-profile sports forums have run out of superlatives to describe Tiger, they’ve taken to debating his place in history among great athletes on almost a daily basis. Most agree with my statement that golfers are not athletes, but a select few refute that notion, pointing to Tiger’s rock-hard physique and willingness to undergo military Special Forces training as proof that he is indeed an athlete.

Make no mistake about it, Woods is athletic and fit enough to partake in several other sports. But whether or not he could actually excel in them is anyone’s guess because golf doesn’t require him to use these talents. Still don’t agree? Switch Tiger Woods’ list of golf accomplishments with Phil Mickelson’s, and imagine Phil as the recipient of all this praise. Could we dare speak Phil Mickelson’s name and the word “athlete” in the same sentence without laughing aloud? Would anyone argue that shooting a great round of golf is an athletic achievement if Phil were on top? I rest my case.

So that narrows it down to two, unless I’m missing someone in ancient times; perhaps a brave fellow who fought off three lions in one day in the Coliseum or someone who ran through the entire Oregon Trail like a marathon. The final two are Michael Jordan and Muhammad Ali, each icons of their sport, each absolutely dominant for the vast majority of their careers. Here we go. Air Jordan vs. the baddest man ever to stalk the earth. Let’s break it down by category.

In terms of overall athleticism (speed, agility, power in Ali’s case, jumping in Jordan’s), it’s pretty much a wash. Both began their careers as arguably the top pure athletes in their sports and then made successful transitions later on as they mastered the mental side of their sports to remain on top. Who had the more successful career? That’s another difficult question.

Jordan won an NCAA title at North Carolina and six NBA titles over 15 seasons, despite retiring after his third for a year and then coming back. Ali went 56-5 in his career with 37 knockouts and fought for 19 years. From the time Ali turned pro, it took him four years (until 1964 when he defeated Sonny Liston) to become Heavyweight Champion.

Jordan took six years to win his first championship but was First-Team All-NBA in his third season until his retirement, not counting the Washington years. Pretty remarkable, considering basketball is a team game and it’s doubtful any one player could have led the ragtag Bulls past the powerful Pistons, Celtics, and Lakers of the 1980’s, much like it would have been exceedingly difficult for Ali to have beaten the top heavyweights of his era when he first burst onto the boxing scene.

Finally, let’s look at overall success. Jordan captured six championships and stayed on top from then on for the most part. He came back for the last 17 games of the 1994-1995 season but his Bulls lost in the Eastern Conference Finals despite Jordan’s 31.5 points a game. From then on, the Bulls had another three-peat, and Jordan also came back with the Washington Wizards at the age of 38 and still scored 22.9 and 20.0 points a game in his final two seasons.

Ali held the Heavyweight Title from 1964 until 1971, when he lost to Joe Frazier in an epic 15-round bout at the age of 29.

So basically, both Jordan and Ali had one hiccup while they were still in their primes, if you consider Jordan’s early struggles as similar to Ali’s quest to work his way up the ladder to become heavyweight champion and factor in the weakness of Jordan’s supporting cast.

Ali would reclaim his belt against George Foreman in 1974 and then lose it again to Leon Spinks in 1978 at the age of 36. But I won't hold it against Ali because when Jordan was 36, he was probably out on the golf course betting countless thousands of dollars and spending the rest of his time in the casinos. As you can see, the parallels between the careers of Jordan and Ali are striking. So why have I given the slight nod to Jordan? It’s tough to quantify, let alone explain, but I'll try.

When I watched Jordan play, I simply got the sense that he was head and shoulders above everyone else, despite being only 6-foot-6 in a game dominated by giants. It was almost as if he was toying with the other players; always pacing himself and relying on his teammates until crunch time, during which he delivered like no one else. In terms of speed, body control, leaping ability, physical conditioning, and explosiveness, there wasn’t anyone better in his sport. And unlike Ali, he did it for 100+ games every year (counting the playoffs). He had to perform day after day under the bright lights, and he almost always came through.

Ali fought 56 times in 15 years (using just his statistics in his prime, not his final four years when he fought sparingly) for an average of 3.7 bouts per year. That would be high for many modern boxers, but it’s still not the same as performing on a consistent basis like Jordan and other athletes do. I give him credit for recovering from getting hit and I’m sure he trained like a madman year-round, but it’s just not the same.

I’m not saying he couldn’t perform and compete for long seasons like Jordan did, but because he didn’t, I have to give the slight edge to Jordan. Hey, when you’re talking about two virtually flawless athletes, sometimes it’s the little things that count, and that’s what makes it such a timeless debate. Please don't take it personally.

[j.dizzle]

LOL at miamiheat posts..longer then a fuckin book

[namlook]

Hard to believe MJ didn't have his own influences. Guys like David Thompson.

Exactly. David Thompson was a huge influence on Jordan which is why he asked him to be his presenter at the Hall of Fame.

“I got a call from the Hall of Fame and they asked me if I was willing to be a presenter for someone,” Thompson recently told Yahoo! Sports. “I said, ‘Yeah.’ I didn’t know who it was. … They said Michael Jordan. I was like, ‘Wow.’ He told them that he was a big fan of mine and I was the one that really inspired him.

[21_Blessings]

A big difference between Kobe and MJ is that the league didn't engineer absurdly lop-sided trades to help out the Bulls.

Like Rodman for Will Perdue? Good one Spurs. :rollin

Fantastic job owning yourself. San Antonio stupidity I suppose. :hat

[MiamiHeat]

Greatest Athlete Ever

Is Michael Jordan the greatest ever? Not just the greatest basketball player but the greatest athlete: a figure who not only dominates his sport but also changes the way it's played, who dominates that sport not only in his own time but also across time? Where does Jordan stand relative to Babe Ruth, say, or Muhammad Ali?

Let's knock down the basketball straw man first. If someone plays defense like Bill Russell, passes like Isiah Thomas, scores like Julius Erving and rises to the occasion like Larry Bird, it's hard to argue against him. The clincher comes in the context of his team. When Jordan's around, the Bulls win championships. When he's off flailing at minor-league curve balls, they don't.

Now, the serious competition. Ruth nearly invented the home run, and remains second only to Hank Aaron in career homers. His teams won more than their share--more even than Jordan's share--of championships. As an offensive force, Ruth utterly dominated his era (in 1921, only two American League teams hit as many home runs as Ruth did all by himself), and that was an era in which baseball had a near monopoly on the best professional athletes. The capstone to the Ruth argument is the five-season stretch during which he was among baseball's best pitchers before switching full time to the outfield. He was Mark McGwire, Tony Gwynn and Greg Maddux all rolled into one.

But Ruth's accomplishments are diminished by one brutal fact: he didn't play against black athletes. One-tenth of the population, and surely a far larger proportion of those motivated to succeed in athletics, never had a chance to test Ruth. I hate to admit it, but it may be that the Babe was more George Mikan than Michael Jordan.

Ali? Among those in individual sports, his record is without peer, as was his combination of talents: size, speed, power, guile and the colossal heart that vanquished the great Joe Frazier. But Ali suffers from the converse of the Ruth argument: by the time Ali came along, the best athletes had been siphoned off by team sports. Ali was a giant, but most of his opponents were relative dwarfs.

Jim Brown? Just nine seasons, offense only. Jim Thorpe? More legend than accomplishment. Jack Nicklaus? Sorry, but golfers, like tennis players and decathletes, don't have to suffer flying elbows, inside sliders or other lethal moving objects. Hockey has until recently attracted only athletes from colder regions. There has simply never been an athletic accomplishment on the scale of Jordan's in the U.S.

But that national qualifier is critical. If you're looking for the best in the world, you would have to pick someone who dominated a sport played by more than 200 million people, most from countries where no other game matters enough to draw down the talent pool; an athlete who at 17 led his team to the first of his unprecedented three world championships, who in a sport accustomed to the 1-0 shutout scored an astonishing 1,281 goals. For my money, if you have to pick the one best athlete of all time, it's Brazil's nonpareil Pele, the Michael Jordan of soccer.

[namlook]

Like Rodman for Will Perdue? Good one Spurs. :rollin

Fantastic job owning yourself. San Antonio stupidity I suppose. :hat

LOL! Nice.

The NBA engineered the Gasol trade? Hahaha...this shows you the level of intelligence we are dealing with.

[21_Blessings]

The Spurs could sure use a 15/10/1.5 Marc Gasol + 2010 cap space like Memphis has right about now. Would be great next to Timmy. :lol

[Tacker]

namlook just made him self look dumber than tacker. If thats possible


Yeah I'm dumber than a tack by posting facts. Haha. LOL. I have a graduate school degree and have been following basketball since the late 70's. Yeah I'm really dumb. LOL.

How about you? High school diploma? Yeah...that's what I thought.
:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin

[MiamiHeat]

1. Playoff PPG All Time (http://www.nba.com/statistics/encyc/Player.jsp)

2. PPG All Time (http://www.nba.com/statistics/default_all_time_leaders/AllTimeLeadersPPGQuery.html?topic=4&stat=0)

Kobe will never be as good as MJ was.

Next off is the following:

Also, Kobe in the finals. This is how they performed in the finals.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/zillgitt/2004-06-15-zillgitt_x.htm

In 35 Finals games, Jordan averaged 33.6 points, 6.0 rebounds and 6.0 assists a game on 48% FG
In 30 Finals games, Bryant has averaged 24.6 points, 5.2 rebounds and 5.3 assists a game on 41% FG

Also MJ has 5 finals in the top 15 all time with all 6 in the top 26 and Kobe has 0 finals performances in the top 50 and has a all time top 10 worst finals performance.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-2

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-Worst



Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games.



MVP's - Jordan = 5; Kobe = 1
Titles - Jordan = 6 (as the #1 Option and best player); Kobe = 1 (as the best player on team) 3 (2nd best player on team)
Finals MVP's - Jordan = 6; Kobe = 1
DPOY - Jordan = 1; Kobe = 0
Scoring Titles - Jordan = 10; Kobe = 2
Career PPG - Jordan = 30.1 (Highest Ever); Kobe = 25.0
Playoffs PPG - Jordan = 33.4 (Highest Ever); Kobe = 25.0
Playoff Points - Jordan = 5987 - Most Ever Points (179 games); Kobe = 4381 (175 games)
FG% - Jordan - 50% Career; Kobe = 45% Career Thus Far
Playoff FG% - Jordan = 49% Career; Kobe = 45% Career Thus Far
PER (Offensive and Defensive Rating) - Jordan Career = 27.91 (highest ever); Kobe = 23.64
Playoff PER (Offensive and Defensive Rating) - Jordan Career = 28.59 (highest ever); Kobe = 22.04
Steals - Jordan = 2.4 SPG Career (with 3 Steals Titles); Kobe = 1.5 SPG
Blocks - Jordan = 0.8 BPG Career (most blocks ever for a guard); Kobe = 0.6



Here were the requirements
NBA ALL-TIME LEADERS:
(All statistical records + playoff records + career averages + playoff averages + MVPs + Finals MVPs + Rings + All-1st teams + All-1st Defensive Teams + All-star games + All-star MVPS)
This is how it broke down each category:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

This is how it broke down each category:
NBA MVP awards won (five points each)
NBA championships won (five points each)
All-Star Games selected to play in (one point each)
All-NBA first-team selections (two points each)
All-defensive first team (one point each)
NBA Finals MVP awards (two points each)
All-Star MVP awards (one point each)
Individual statistical titles (two points each) — restricted to points, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage and free throw percentage, the stats the league has used the longest
Career averages (six points each) — if a player is the NBA career leader in scoring average, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage or free throw percentage
Career playoff averages (five points each) — for each category the player leads

That was the criteria used
1st Place: MJ, 149 total points
2nd Place: Wilt, 124 total points
3rd Place: Bill, 118 total points
4th Place: Jabbar, 114 total points
5th Place: Magic, 102 total points
Now adding up the current players you get (Active Players):
1st Place: Shaq, 87 total points
2nd Place: Tim, 74 total points
3rd Place: KB, 66 total points

To show the greatness of MJ he never has had a playoff series where he was outscored nor has he ever had a series where he averaged less than 26.6 ppg. Also MJ averaged over 31+ ppg in every playoffs after his rookie year (where he averaged 29.3 ppg in his rookie year)

Jordan's playoffs career average is: 33.4 PPG / 6.4 RPG / 5.7 APG / 2.1 SPG / 0.9 BPG / 49% FG / 28.59 PER



http://www.freewebs.com/bignall/simpsons_apu.jpg

[j.dizzle]

All ya'll need to stop bitching..i'm damn sick of coming to this forum & seeing the same shitty threads about MJ vs Kobe..Honestly do some of you Laker fans not understand how fuckin great MJ was?? Sure Kobe is damn good but you cant compare them till Kobe reaches 35-36 years old.

[Venti Quattro]

LOL MiamiHeat is so insecure and butthurt that he unleashes the statistics card like there's no tomorrow.

[gmartin02]

Jordan wouldn't have gotten his ass beat 131-92 by Boston.Kobe wouldn't have either if the Lakers had Pippen in his prime playing defense on Paul Pierce instead of Vladimir Radmanovic (who is a very poor defender). Stupid troll comment.

[Tacker]

LOL MiamiHeat is so insecure and butthurt that he unleashes the statistics card like there's no tomorrow.

Rage? Because stats show MJ > Kobe?

[MiamiHeat]

All ya'll need to stop bitching..i'm damn sick of coming to this forum & seeing the same shitty threads about MJ vs Kobe..Honestly do some of you Laker fans not understand how fuckin great MJ was?? Sure Kobe is damn good but you cant compare them till Kobe reaches 35-36 years old.

This man here speaks wisdom.


Everyone is sick and tired of reading the same shitty Kobe threads from these insecure laker fans.

[21_Blessings]

All ya'll need to stop bitching..i'm damn sick of coming to this forum & seeing the same shitty threads about MJ vs Kobe..Honestly do some of you Laker fans not understand how fuckin great MJ was?? Sure Kobe is damn good but you cant compare them till Kobe reaches 35-36 years old.

I guarantee you I watched MJ play more than you. Kobe is just as good - basketball skill wise. Superior in some aspects. Less superior in some other, most notably physical aspects (small hands for example). Jordan could palm that bitch like a baseball.

[Venti Quattro]

Jordan IS better. I am not insecure about Kobe's status as one of the game's greats. He may not pass Jordan but who cares? He's got his own impressive resume.

LOL @ other fans storming this thread just because Phil Jackson made such comments about Kobe catching up to MJ. LMAO. :lmao

[namlook]

You can't compare stats across different eras. Also Kobe started at 17 which affect his stats like PPG. When it's all said and done if Kobe has 6 or 7 rings, basketball history will put him right next to Jordan. Like it or not, that is what will happen.

[mogrovejo]

I'd wait to see what Jackson says after he stops coaching Kobe. Likewise for SVG and Howard/Mourning. Just sayin...

[MiamiHeat]

Finals MVP's = 1

The first 3 rings = sidekick

Not in the same class as even Magic yet.

[MiamiHeat]

A better debate would be LeBron vs Kobe

LeBron is the best player in the league right now, and has been for the past 2-3 seasons.

[cobbler]

Give it up namlook. When it comes to Kobe, many here as illustrated above just plain hate and have blinders on. When it comes to Jordan the blinders suddenly get reversed. Most of them probably never actually saw him play a full game. Just the MTV generation relying on highlights and conjecture to support their OPINIONS.

Jordan and Kobe are both great players. Played in different eras with different rules and different level of competition. Impossible to compare. If Kobe went on to win 5 more titles, 5 MVPS, ended with the most points scored and highest shooting % you will still see the haters come up with somthing to discredit the accomplishments much like how many result to the rape card when they have run out of argument. Both guys were or are great players. Both guys are egotistical jerks as well.

The whole GOAT thing is purely opinion. Personally, I dont think either is in the top 2 but that's my opinion. And I could put up arguments to support it right or wrong.

Let the haters hate and just enjoy their jealousy and misery.

[namlook]

A better debate would be LeBron vs Kobe

LeBron is the best player in the league right now, and has been for the past 2-3 seasons.

If Lebron never wins a ring he will be the next McGrady.

[Tacker]

Give it up namlook. When it comes to Kobe, many here as illustrated above just plain hate and have blinders on. When it comes to Jordan the blinders suddenly get reversed. Most of them probably never actually saw him play a full game. Just the MTV generation relying on highlights and conjecture to support their OPINIONS.

Jordan and Kobe are both great players. Played in different eras with different rules and different level of competition. Impossible to compare. If Kobe went on to win 5 more titles, 5 MVPS, ended with the most points scored and highest shooting % you will still see the haters come up with somthing to discredit the accomplishments much like how many result to the rape card when they have run out of argument. Both guys were or are great players. Both guys are egotistical jerks as well.

The whole GOAT thing is purely opinion. Personally, I dont think either is in the top 2 but that's my opinion. And I could put up arguments to support it right or wrong.

Let the haters hate and just enjoy their jealousy and misery.

Basketballreference.com

[MiamiHeat]

Give it up namlook. When it comes to Kobe, many here as illustrated above just plain hate and have blinders on. When it comes to Jordan the blinders suddenly get reversed. Most of them probably never actually saw him play a full game. Just the MTV generation relying on highlights and conjecture to support their OPINIONS.

Jordan and Kobe are both great players. Played in different eras with different rules and different level of competition. Impossible to compare. If Kobe went on to win 5 more titles, 5 MVPS, ended with the most points scored and highest shooting % you will still see the haters come up with somthing to discredit the accomplishments much like how many result to the rape card when they have run out of argument. Both guys were or are great players. Both guys are egotistical jerks as well.

The whole GOAT thing is purely opinion. Personally, I dont think either is in the top 2 but that's my opinion. And I could put up arguments to support it right or wrong.

Let the haters hate and just enjoy their jealousy and misery.

http://patrickcox.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/baby_crying_closeup.jpg

or could it be, that Kobe only has 1 Finals MVP,
has never shot 50% or better in a season,
has only 2 scoring titles,

and you are trying to place him above

10 scoring titles,
DPOY, 6 Finals MVP's,
5 league MVP's,
and 7 seasons of shooting 50% or better?


a guy that DOMINATED the NBA and it was crystal clear nobody could even TOUCH MJ? Kobe doesn't even come CLOSE to that level. He's not feared like MJ, not even close. A ton of people think LeBron > Kobe, and the stats show it.

Get out of here with your garbage.

[namlook]

Basketballreference.com

You can't rely on stats to make arguments across generations. The rules and competition were different. If you didn't see both Jordan and Kobe play you should just STFU.

[cobbler]

Basketballreference.com

Stats do not show the whole picture.

[MiamiHeat]

lol@ laker fans

they are so stupid, even in the face of HUGE adversity, they think there is a conspiracy against them

it CAN'T be that their fake ass star is not even close to being near MJ

[cobbler]

Finals MVP's = 1

The first 3 rings = sidekick

Not in the same class as even Magic yet.



A better debate would be LeBron vs Kobe

LeBron is the best player in the league right now, and has been for the past 2-3 seasons.

Yeah a better debate:

Finals MVP = 0

rings = 0

Owning yourself comes easy Miami! :lol

[namlook]

or could it be, that Kobe only has 1 Finals MVP,
has never shot 50% or better in a season,
has only 2 scoring titles,

and you are trying to place him above

10 scoring titles,
DPOY, 6 Finals MVP's,
5 league MVP's,
and 7 seasons of shooting 50% or better?



No I'm not trying to place Kobe above Jordan. I'm actually a lot more objective than you.

If Kobe wins 6 or 7 rings I will put him on equal footing with Jordan. Kobe would need to do something crazy like win 8 rings before I put him above Jordan.

[MiamiHeat]

Ok, so then you admit Kobe is not near MJ

about time, you delusional person you.

[MiamiHeat]

No I'm not trying to place Kobe above Jordan. I'm actually a lot more objective than you.

If Kobe wins 6 or 7 rings I will put him on equal footing with Jordan. Kobe would need to do something crazy like win 8 rings before I put him above Jordan.

do whatever the fuck you want

The rest of us will think you are wrong, and you can keep talking till your blue in the face.

I want to see 7 Finals MVPs, 8 scoring titles in a row, DPOY, 6-7 seasons shooting 50% or better, and a complete DOMINATION of the NBA, where it's clear NOBODY can even TOUCH you. MILLIONS of people right now believe LeBron > Kobe. It's quite fact. LeBron on that Laker team?? OOOH BOY

Riding Shaq to 3 rings doesn't count. I don't care how well Kobe played, Shaq was the one being double and triple teamed. Being an alpha dog is completely different than being 2nd option.

[j.dizzle]

10 scoring titles,
DPOY, 6 Finals MVP's,
5 league MVP's,
and 7 seasons of shooting 50% or better?

There is a reason why this argument is not worth having for another 4-5 years..Just give MJ his god damn recognition & get on with the show

[namlook]

Ok, so then you admit Kobe is not near MJ

about time, you delusional person you.

Kobe is near MJ. He's only 31 and Jordan won three rings after the age of 30. If Kobe wins no more rings, Jordan is clearly a step above. If Kobe wins three more after the age of 30 like Jordan did, he's at Jordan's level. All you haters and whine and cry about it all you want but history will put Kobe right there if he wins 2-3 more rings.

[Venti Quattro]

No I'm not trying to place Kobe above Jordan. I'm actually a lot more objective than you.

If Kobe wins 6 or 7 rings I will put him on equal footing with Jordan. Kobe would need to do something crazy like win 8 rings before I put him above Jordan.
EXACTLY

People here are so quick on protecting Jordan from any contenders

[MiamiHeat]

Riding Shaq to 3 rings don't count.

Kobe has 1 ring.


MJ would have gotten past the Celtics and won some rings in the 80's if he had Shaq on his team. He punked the Celtics for 63 points in the playoffs, took them to overtime, and almost beat them single-handedly.

We are talkin bout the 1986 Celtics, one of the greatest NBA defensive teams in HISTORY.

[HarlemHeat37]

I have yet to see any Laker fans here make a good argument for Kobe in any regard..great player, top 10 all-time, but his fans have a really hard time making good arguments in his favor..

When you prove them wrong, they call you a hater and try to change the subject..

Laker fans ignore the role he played for the first 3 titles, they ignore his career efficiency % in comparison to others, they downplay his lack of success in PER, they ignore his lack of success in Finals MVP, they ignore his poor play in the 2004 and 2008 Finals, they ignore his lacking accolades in comparison, they exaggerate trivial aspects like buzzer beaters to hype him up..

[cobbler]

or could it be, that Kobe only has 1 Finals MVP,
has never shot 50% or better in a season,
has only 2 scoring titles,

and you are trying to place him above

10 scoring titles,
DPOY, 6 Finals MVP's,
5 league MVP's,
and 7 seasons of shooting 50% or better?.

Last I looked Kobe hasn't completed his career so I haven't formed an opinion yet. And I have always said you cannot cross eras and get any kind of accurate analysis. IMO neither is the GOAT. I believe Wilt is and I could show you pages of stats too that make MJ's look paultry. But again, crossing eras just doesn't hold water.



a guy that DOMINATED the NBA and it was crystal clear nobody could even TOUCH MJ? Kobe doesn't even come CLOSE to that level. He's not feared like MJ, not even close. A ton of people think LeBron > Kobe, and the stats show it. Get out of here with your garbage.

And another ton think Kobe is greater than Lebron.... including Lebon! What does that prove?

Miami talking about garbage.... :lmao

[Venti Quattro]

Riding Shaq to 3 rings don't count.

Kobe has 1 ring.

Bullshit.

[namlook]

Riding Shaq to 3 rings don't count.

Kobe has 1 ring.


Yeah right.

Shaq was the primary offensive option for most of the game by design because his size was a mismatch for every team. The problem is Shaq was often useless in the 4th quarter with the game on the line. He could not shoot free throws and was never known for making a clutch shot. Kobe, not Shaq was the person that was the alpha male when it mattered and the game was on the line.

[MiamiHeat]

I have yet to see any Laker fans here make a good argument for Kobe in any regard..great player, top 10 all-time, but his fans have a really hard time making good arguments in his favor..

When you prove them wrong, they call you a hater and try to change the subject..

Laker fans ignore the role he played for the first 3 titles, they ignore his career efficiency % in comparison to others, they downplay his lack of success in PER, they ignore his lack of success in Finals MVP, they ignore his poor play in the 2004 and 2008 Finals, they ignore his lacking accolades in comparison, they exaggerate trivial aspects like buzzer beaters to hype him up..


Most of them are young fans who never saw MJ play.

Most of them don't even understand Kobe has bitten off so much of MJ's game. and he's still not as good as MJ at it, which is hilarious to me.

They see the replays of a Kobe highlight, and I say to myself, "I've seen this before, only this version is not as good"

[namlook]

Most of them are young fans who never saw MJ play.

Most of them don't even understand Kobe has bitten off so much of MJ's game. and he's still not as good as MJ at it, which is hilarious to me.

They see the replays of a Kobe highlight, and I say to myself, "I've seen this before, only this version is not as good"

Most of the people who think Kobe is not close to Jordan never saw Jordan play they just look up stats on the internet. You really can't compare the two players unless you saw them both play. If you want to pull out stats Wilt crushes Jordan.

[MiamiHeat]

LeBron is only 25 years old.

He came into the league rocking the NBA at 18 years old, while Kobe was on the bench his first 3 years.

It's quite obvious LeBron is going to end up with several FInals MVP's, he's already greater than Kobe to me.

[MiamiHeat]

Most of the people who think Kobe is not close to Jordan never saw Jordan play they just look up stats on the internet. If you want to pull out stats Wilt crushes Jordan.

Bullshit, Wilt is a center so it's obvious he will have more rebounds and blocks, and higher FG%. HOWEVER

Wilt = 7 consecutive scoring titles
Jordan = 7 consecutive scoring titles

Jordan = 10 scoring titles, most in NBA history
Jordan = Highest career average PPG in NBA history

Wilt = #4 on All-Time scoring list
Jordan = #3 on All-Time scoring list

Wilt = 1 Finals MVP, 2 championships
Jordan = 6 Finals MVP, 6 Championships

Wilt = 0 defensive player of the year
Jordan = 1 Defensive player of the year (also led the league in scoring)

Wilt = 4 league MVP's
Jordan = 5 league mvp's (it was joked he should have had more, but everyone was tired of voting for him)


again, go argue with NBA.com

They say Jordan is the GOAT.

Go suck some cock, you fail at life. You can't change facts to prop up Kobe.

[namlook]

LeBron is only 25 years old.

He came into the league rocking the NBA at 18 years old, while Kobe was on the bench his first 3 years.

It's quite obvious LeBron is going to end up with several FInals MVP's, he's already greater than Kobe to me.

It was obvious last year that the Cavs would beat the Magic too right?

[cobbler]

LeBron is only 25 years old.

He came into the league rocking the NBA at 18 years old, while Kobe was on the bench his first 3 years.

It's quite obvious LeBron is going to end up with several FInals MVP's, he's already greater than Kobe to me.

Kobe came into the league on a veteran contending team. He would have started day one on the Cavs team and you know it.

You are entitled to your opinion just as everyone else but there is no way you can factualy compare eras. Not possible.

[namlook]

Bullshit, Wilt is a center so it's obvious he will have more rebounds and blocks, and higher FG%. HOWEVER


Yeah let's just forget about all those stats because he was a center. Lets forget he averaged 50 pts a game in a season too. LOL!

[Banzai]

lol@ laker fans

they are so stupid, even in the face of HUGE adversity, they think there is a conspiracy against them

it CAN'T be that their fake ass star is not even close to being near MJ

Who gives a damn? I sure as hell do not care who is better..I just enjoy the game of basketball all together...as well as MJ and Kobe.

[ChrisRichards]

Most of them are young fans who never saw MJ play.

Most of them don't even understand Kobe has bitten off so much of MJ's game. and he's still not as good as MJ at it, which is hilarious to me.

They see the replays of a Kobe highlight, and I say to myself, "I've seen this before, only this version is not as good"
agree. stop owning them Miamiheat lol. these laker fans are hurting their vaginas right now.

[namlook]

agree. stop owning them Miamiheat lol. these laker fans are hurting their vaginas right now.

How old are you? Did you see Jordan play his entire career like I did?

Yeah...that's what I thought.

[ChrisRichards]

Who gives a damn? I sure as hell do not care who is better..I just enjoy the game of basketball all together...as well as MJ and Kobe.
Uh, insecure Lakers fans does?



Look, just accept the fact that Kobe will never be better than MJ. He's not even better than Magic lol. and Lebron is on his way onto edging out Kobe when all is said and done.



Again, Kobe has not won a DPOY, never shot above 50% FG, only has 1 Finals MVP and 1 regular season MVP lol.

[cobbler]

Bullshit, Wilt is a center so it's obvious he will have more rebounds and blocks, and higher FG%. HOWEVER

Wilt = 7 consecutive scoring titles
Jordan = 7 consecutive scoring titles

Jordan = 10 scoring titles, most in NBA history
Jordan = Highest career average PPG in NBA history

Wilt = #4 on All-Time scoring list
Jordan = #3 on All-Time scoring list

Wilt = 1 Finals MVP, 2 championships
Jordan = 6 Finals MVP, 6 Championships

Wilt = 0 defensive player of the year
Jordan = 1 Defensive player of the year (also led the league in scoring)

Wilt = 4 league MVP's
Jordan = 5 league mvp's (it was joked he should have had more, but everyone was tired of voting for him)


again, go argue with NBA.com

They say Jordan is the GOAT.

Go suck some cock, you fail at life. You can't change facts to prop up Kobe.

Talk about changing facts. Do some research before posting yours or at the very least qualify them. You just toss them out as if they are fact. \

- the All-Defensive Team award was established in the 1968-69 season. Chamberlain and Russell would have been there many, many times.

- The Finals MVP award was established for the 1968-69 NBA Finals, It was Russell's final season.

- Steals and blocks: These stats weren't officially recorded until the 1974 season, Russell and Chamberlain could have lead the league in blocks many times, and Abdul-Jabbar surely would have been at the top of the blocks category a couple of times more than the 4 times he was.

- Defensive Player of the Year: this award wasn't issued until the 1983 season, It's safe to say that Bill Russell would have won quite a few of these, and Chamberlain probably would have won it in 1972 and 1973.

[Banzai]

Uh, insecure Lakers fans does?



Look, just accept the fact that Kobe will never be better than MJ. He's not even better than Magic lol. and Lebron is on his way onto edging out Kobe when all is said and done.



Again, Kobe has not won a DPOY, never shot above 50% FG, only has 1 Finals MVP and 1 regular season MVP lol.
I told you I don't care...rofl.:rollin

[ChrisRichards]

Yeah let's just forget about all those stats because he was a center. Lets forget he averaged 50 pts a game in a season too. LOL!LOL
again, look at the stats presented below. Jordan edges the mythical Wilt Chamberlain:lol

Wilt = 7 consecutive scoring titles
Jordan = 7 consecutive scoring titles

Jordan = 10 scoring titles, most in NBA history
Jordan = Highest career average PPG in NBA history

Wilt = #4 on All-Time scoring list
Jordan = #3 on All-Time scoring list

Wilt = 1 Finals MVP, 2 championships
Jordan = 6 Finals MVP, 6 Championships

Wilt = 0 defensive player of the year
Jordan = 1 Defensive player of the year (also led the league in scoring)

Wilt = 4 league MVP's
Jordan = 5 league mvp's (it was joked he should have had more, but everyone was tired of voting for him)


again, go argue with NBA.com

They say Jordan is the GOAT.

Go suck some cock, you fail at life. You can't change facts to prop up Kobe.

[namlook]

LOL
again, look at the stats presented below. Jordan edges the mythical Wilt Chamberlain:lol




Talk about changing facts. Do some research before posting yours or at the very least qualify them.

- the All-Defensive Team award was established in the 1968-69 season. Chamberlain and Russell would have been there many, many times.

- The Finals MVP award was established for the 1968-69 NBA Finals, It was Russell's final season.

- Steals and blocks: These stats weren't officially recorded until the 1974 season, Russell and Chamberlain could have lead the league in blocks many times, and Abdul-Jabbar surely would have been at the top of the blocks category a couple of times more than the 4 times he was.

- Defensive Player of the Year: this award wasn't issued until the 1983 season, It's safe to say that Bill Russell would have won quite a few of these, and Chamberlain probably would have won it in 1972 and 1973.


Ooops, somebody just got owned. Say goodnight now MiamiHeat and ChrisRichards (http://spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=16909) you are both showing your young age. It's past your bedtime. Leave the forums for the adults now.

[cobbler]

agree. stop owning them Miamiheat lol. these laker fans are hurting their vaginas right now.

Hey look... Miami's alter ego has arrived!

[ChrisRichards]

Hey look... Miami's alter ego has arrived!
im not MiamiHeat lol. I just happen to agree with his posts and constant owning of Laker fags.

[MiamiHeat]

Talk about

I guarantee you that Bill Russell would have had DPOY ON LOCK over Chamberlain


If there was ONE thing Bill was about, it was playing defense.

LOL at anyone thinking Wilt the scoring machine would have edged him out

[MiamiHeat]

He's actually tied with Wilt at 30.1

I swear to god I hate those 2 wizard years. He should have never come back as a 40 year old man.

MJ retired with a Bulls PPG average of like 31 or 32. something.

[namlook]

I guarantee you that Bill Russell would have had DPOY ON LOCK over Chamberlain


If there was ONE thing Bill was about, it was playing defense.

LOL at anyone thinking Wilt the scoring machine would have edged him out

MiamiHeat, you just got owned and got your ass handed to you a few minutes ago. I can't believe you have the nerve to post again and act like nothing happened. LOL!!!

[ChrisRichards]

MiamiHeat, you just got owned and got your ass handed to you a few minutes ago. I can't believe you have the nerve to post again and act like nothing happened. LOL!!!
:lol How?

[cobbler]

I swear to god I hate those 2 wizard years. He should have never come back as a 40 year old man.

MJ retired with a Bulls PPG average of like 31 or 32. something.

So its the Wizard years that make you a liar. I see.

[Banzai]

http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/Upload/dont%20care/Care-Fascinating_%28Basketball%29.jpg (http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/Upload/dont%20care/Care-Fascinating_%28Basketball%29.jpg)

[namlook]

:lol How?

How? LOL. This is how.


Bullshit, Wilt is a center so it's obvious he will have more rebounds and blocks, and higher FG%. HOWEVER

Wilt = 7 consecutive scoring titles
Jordan = 7 consecutive scoring titles

Jordan = 10 scoring titles, most in NBA history
Jordan = Highest career average PPG in NBA history

Wilt = #4 on All-Time scoring list
Jordan = #3 on All-Time scoring list

Wilt = 1 Finals MVP, 2 championships
Jordan = 6 Finals MVP, 6 Championships

Wilt = 0 defensive player of the year
Jordan = 1 Defensive player of the year (also led the league in scoring)

Wilt = 4 league MVP's
Jordan = 5 league mvp's (it was joked he should have had more, but everyone was tired of voting for him)


again, go argue with NBA.com

They say Jordan is the GOAT.

Go suck some cock, you fail at life. You can't change facts to prop up Kobe.


Talk about changing facts. Do some research before posting yours or at the very least qualify them. You just toss them out as if they are fact. \

- the All-Defensive Team award was established in the 1968-69 season. Chamberlain and Russell would have been there many, many times.

- The Finals MVP award was established for the 1968-69 NBA Finals, It was Russell's final season.

- Steals and blocks: These stats weren't officially recorded until the 1974 season, Russell and Chamberlain could have lead the league in blocks many times, and Abdul-Jabbar surely would have been at the top of the blocks category a couple of times more than the 4 times he was.

- Defensive Player of the Year: this award wasn't issued until the 1983 season, It's safe to say that Bill Russell would have won quite a few of these, and Chamberlain probably would have won it in 1972 and 1973.

[cobbler]

:lol How?

I believe that post was for Miami.

:lmao

[MiamiHeat]

http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/Upload/dont%20care/Care-Fascinating_%28Basketball%29.jpg (http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/Upload/dont%20care/Care-Fascinating_%28Basketball%29.jpg)

I agree, it's the same shitty topic brought up by trolls or laker fans

give it up already

then later, they cry when someone shits all over kobe

[MiamiHeat]

im not MiamiHeat lol. I just happen to agree with his posts and constant owning of Laker fags.

don't even try it

we all already know you are a laker fan trolling this board.

[Banzai]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/54/facepalm_implied.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=4221)

[cobbler]

I think this is where I use the ole ignore button. Finally put it to use last night with Harlem (Miami/ChrisRichrd). Should have done this lone ago.

...adding Miami and Chris.

Poof

[MiamiHeat]

Chris Richards and Miami Heat are the same guys. Forgot to log off to the other account? lol

You = not informed

Already proven it's not me

[MiamiHeat]

I think this is where I use the ole ignore button. Finally put it to use last night with Harlem (Miami/ChrisRichrd). Should have done this lone ago.

...adding Miami and Chris.

Poof

Bout time, now stop posting your garbage while you are at it.

[cobbler]

MiamiHeat, you just got owned and got your ass handed to you a few minutes ago. I can't believe you have the nerve to post again and act like nothing happened. LOL!!!



:lol How?


Classic!!! :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[ChrisRichards]

I believe that post was for Miami.

:lmao
No. That post didnt prove anything, my logic>yours. get wit the program dude :rolleyes

[ChrisRichards]

I think this is where I use the ole ignore button. Finally put it to use last night with Harlem (Miami/ChrisRichrd). Should have done this lone ago.

...adding Miami and Chris.

Poof
Stop posting already you're an embarassment to the laker fans :rollin

[cobbler]

Bout time, now stop posting your garbage while you are at it.

I will post whatever I wish and there is nothing you can do about it. I mean come on, you are pretty much regarded as a idiot around here. Not bothering with you or your jealousy/hatred anymore.

Toodaloo!

[MiamiHeat]

Laker fans think I'm an idiot, what a fucking surprise.

They also think Kobe is the GOAT, they throw garbage at NBA players who play at their stadium, they have riots instead of celebrations, they pollute nba forums with trolling, and they feel self-entitled

Give me a fucking break.

Spurs = Team of the Decade
Jordan = GOAT
Duncan = Player of the decade

GET WITH IT

[milkshakeballa]

its obvious miami heat is just a troll....just trying to piss off laker fans....i would ignore him for now on...

[milkshakeballa]

Laker fans think I'm an idiot, what a fucking surprise.

They also think Kobe is the GOAT, they throw garbage at NBA players who play at their stadium, they have riots instead of celebrations, they pollute nba forums with trolling, and they feel self-entitled

Give me a fucking break.

Spurs = Team of the Decade
Jordan = GOAT
Duncan = Player of the decade

GET WITH IT



http://images.doctissimo.fr/private/photo/hd/046916046/private-category/troll_spray-19940275ce.jpg

[cobbler]

its obvious miami heat is just a troll....just trying to piss off laker fans....i would ignore him for now on...

Done... he and Chris are on ignore. It's blissful! :toast

[Ice009]

A better debate would be LeBron vs Kobe

LeBron is the best player in the league right now, and has been for the past 2-3 seasons.

I thought Lebron was the best player in the NBA last season. In the regular season that is. Kobe was the best player in the playoffs. Lebron did not play at his best and that is on him.

Edit : I should also add it was pretty clear that Kobe had a better team around him than Lebron had in the playoffs.

[MiamiHeat]

Good, run from the debates you start

I don't use KY Jelly when I penetrate you, so don't sit down for a week, laker fans.

Stfu and move on.

[Ice009]

Miami Heat's listing was spot on for me.

[TheMACHINE]

The main difference between Kobe and MJ is that MJ had to carry a losing franchise on his back for the first several seasons of his career. He had to do EVERYTHING for that team just to make it respectable. As brilliant and accomplished as Kobe is, he's never had to deal with that type of pressure. He came into a great situation with a great franchise and didn't have to be the Man right away.

dude playing for the Lakers is pressure enough...if Jordan failed in Chicago, noone would have gave a damn.

[MiamiHeat]

always keep in mind the defense:
Jordan rules
There weren't flagrant fouls in Jordan's era. Teams would just knock Jordan to the floor, and the referee's only option was to call a regular foul.

Handchecking
The NBA got rid of handchecking, this was to allow for easier driving to the basket and it free's up the ball handler. In Michael's era, they would double team him as soon as his shoulder dropped and he tried taking it to the hoop. It was legal to stop Jordan with your hands, not just your feet and position. Handchecking helped out less athletic defenders, who could make up for being half a step slow, by using their hands to hold the ball-handler at 'bay'.

Bigs waiting in the paint
In Michael's era, bigs had a right to 'airspace'. Now the rules are as such that bigs can't jump to block a dunk or layup because if they make contact, it's a foul. There was no 3 second rule so teams would clog the lane to take away MJ's 'above the rim attack'. In Jordan's day you could jump from inside of the circle, or wherever you wanted, and as long as you jumped straight up, and not into the ball-handler, it was not a foul. Much more physical brand of basketball was played in Michael Jordan's era.

Also now they allow ball-handlers to carry the basketball. As well as players like Kobe Bryant get more touch fouls now on the perimeter than any single player in the history of the sport. It is a changed game.

[milkshakeballa]

always keep in mind the defense:
Jordan rules
There weren't flagrant fouls in Jordan's era. Teams would just knock Jordan to the floor, and the referee's only option was to call a regular foul.

Handchecking
The NBA got rid of handchecking, this was to allow for easier driving to the basket and it free's up the ball handler. In Michael's era, they would double team him as soon as his shoulder dropped and he tried taking it to the hoop. It was legal to stop Jordan with your hands, not just your feet and position. Handchecking helped out less athletic defenders, who could make up for being half a step slow, by using their hands to hold the ball-handler at 'bay'.

Bigs waiting in the paint
In Michael's era, bigs had a right to 'airspace'. Now the rules are as such that bigs can't jump to block a dunk or layup because if they make contact, it's a foul. There was no 3 second rule so teams would clog the lane to take away MJ's 'above the rim attack'. In Jordan's day you could jump from inside of the circle, or wherever you wanted, and as long as you jumped straight up, and not into the ball-handler, it was not a foul. Much more physical brand of basketball was played in Michael Jordan's era.

Also now they allow ball-handlers to carry the basketball. As well as players like Kobe Bryant get more touch fouls now on the perimeter than any single player in the history of the sport. It is a changed game.



zone defense?

[usdane]

always keep in mind the defense:
Jordan rules
There weren't flagrant fouls in Jordan's era. Teams would just knock Jordan to the floor, and the referee's only option was to call a regular foul.

Handchecking
The NBA got rid of handchecking, this was to allow for easier driving to the basket and it free's up the ball handler. In Michael's era, they would double team him as soon as his shoulder dropped and he tried taking it to the hoop. It was legal to stop Jordan with your hands, not just your feet and position. Handchecking helped out less athletic defenders, who could make up for being half a step slow, by using their hands to hold the ball-handler at 'bay'.

Bigs waiting in the paint
In Michael's era, bigs had a right to 'airspace'. Now the rules are as such that bigs can't jump to block a dunk or layup because if they make contact, it's a foul. There was no 3 second rule so teams would clog the lane to take away MJ's 'above the rim attack'. In Jordan's day you could jump from inside of the circle, or wherever you wanted, and as long as you jumped straight up, and not into the ball-handler, it was not a foul. Much more physical brand of basketball was played in Michael Jordan's era.

Also now they allow ball-handlers to carry the basketball. As well as players like Kobe Bryant get more touch fouls now on the perimeter than any single player in the history of the sport. It is a changed game.


Blablabla no Zone blabla 400 win % or rings without Pippen blablabla. Let's stop this shit already.

Without question MJ is Goat. Kobe reminds us of him and is so far the best player since MJ to me.

Is Kobe on par with MJ this far? NO. Is he in the backseat? I think so.

Kobe has some of the same skills as MJ which is the reason they are being compared. I don't see Kareem or Russell being compared to MJ. But like Kobe said let him be Kobe and MJ be MJ.

Lakers fans loves Kobe because he has brought it every night this past decade with broken bones and what not. He is more hungry for rings than everybody else I've seen and he has brought them. He gives us amazing games that blow our minds.
For these reasons and many more Lakers fans will always defend him.

So can't we just enjoy Kobe for who he is; a fucking great baller.

[cobbler]

always keep in mind the defense:
Jordan rules
There weren't flagrant fouls in Jordan's era. Teams would just knock Jordan to the floor, and the referee's only option was to call a regular foul.

Handchecking
The NBA got rid of handchecking, this was to allow for easier driving to the basket and it free's up the ball handler. In Michael's era, they would double team him as soon as his shoulder dropped and he tried taking it to the hoop. It was legal to stop Jordan with your hands, not just your feet and position. Handchecking helped out less athletic defenders, who could make up for being half a step slow, by using their hands to hold the ball-handler at 'bay'.

Bigs waiting in the paint
In Michael's era, bigs had a right to 'airspace'. Now the rules are as such that bigs can't jump to block a dunk or layup because if they make contact, it's a foul. There was no 3 second rule so teams would clog the lane to take away MJ's 'above the rim attack'. In Jordan's day you could jump from inside of the circle, or wherever you wanted, and as long as you jumped straight up, and not into the ball-handler, it was not a foul. Much more physical brand of basketball was played in Michael Jordan's era.

Also now they allow ball-handlers to carry the basketball. As well as players like Kobe Bryant get more touch fouls now on the perimeter than any single player in the history of the sport. It is a changed game.

Hmmmmmmmm.... seems we have another Tacker (Plagiarism) here who doesn't site sources. After reading milkshakeballa's reply to Miami (I have MiamiChris on ignore) I was thinking... I've read this before and low and behold here it is in 2008 word for word:

http://pt.netlog.com/go/explore/videos/videoid=pt-674565

I mean really.... if you're going to use someones material at least give them credit. But then again, look who we are dealing with. The biggest douche on Spurstalk. tsk tsk tsk

[Kobe™]

MH's stupidity just catapulted to another level.

:lol

[Mavs_man_41]

MiamiHeat just took a giant shit on every laker fan on this forum, and you weakasses couldn't do a damn thing but ignore him and run for cover

[wijayas]

Never trust Phil. He is now teaming up with Kobe to oust Jim Buss!

[MiamiHeat]

Blablabla no Zone blabla 400 win % or rings without Pippen blablabla. Let's stop this shit already.

Without question MJ is Goat. Kobe reminds us of him and is so far the best player since MJ to me.

Is Kobe on par with MJ this far? NO. Is he in the backseat? I think so.

Kobe has some of the same skills as MJ which is the reason they are being compared. I don't see Kareem or Russell being compared to MJ. But like Kobe said let him be Kobe and MJ be MJ.

Lakers fans loves Kobe because he has brought it every night this past decade with broken bones and what not. He is more hungry for rings than everybody else I've seen and he has brought them. He gives us amazing games that blow our minds.
For these reasons and many more Lakers fans will always defend him.

So can't we just enjoy Kobe for who he is; a fucking great baller.

Kobe was being compared to MJ when he was 18 years old

why? because everyone wanted to find the next jordan

Jordan was so amazing, everyone wanted another one.

Kobe is the one that most stuck because

1) He played with Shaq and got 3 rings as a sidekick

2) He works hard and tries very hard to copy MJ's moves

3) He is dedicated and serious about trying to be great

4) Lazy motherfuckers like McGrady, Vince Carter, all these guys had as much or even more talent than Kobe did, but neither of them took it seriously.

don't believe the hype.

[Double-Up]

always keep in mind the defense:
Jordan rules
There weren't flagrant fouls in Jordan's era. Teams would just knock Jordan to the floor, and the referee's only option was to call a regular foul.

Handchecking
The NBA got rid of handchecking, this was to allow for easier driving to the basket and it free's up the ball handler. In Michael's era, they would double team him as soon as his shoulder dropped and he tried taking it to the hoop. It was legal to stop Jordan with your hands, not just your feet and position. Handchecking helped out less athletic defenders, who could make up for being half a step slow, by using their hands to hold the ball-handler at 'bay'.

Bigs waiting in the paint
In Michael's era, bigs had a right to 'airspace'. Now the rules are as such that bigs can't jump to block a dunk or layup because if they make contact, it's a foul. There was no 3 second rule so teams would clog the lane to take away MJ's 'above the rim attack'. In Jordan's day you could jump from inside of the circle, or wherever you wanted, and as long as you jumped straight up, and not into the ball-handler, it was not a foul. Much more physical brand of basketball was played in Michael Jordan's era.

Also now they allow ball-handlers to carry the basketball. As well as players like Kobe Bryant get more touch fouls now on the perimeter than any single player in the history of the sport. It is a changed game.

Check and mate.

[Killakobe81]

I dont think Kobe is GOAT
I dont think Spurs are team of decade (though it's close)... the stats should show you that 4 titles 6 finals appearances only 1 missed playoff all that matters
Duncan player of the decade .. i agree (but it's close Kobe is 2nd)

[cobbler]

Kobe was being compared to MJ when he was 18 years old

why? because everyone wanted to find the next jordan

Jordan was so amazing, everyone wanted another one.

Kobe is the one that most stuck because

1) He played with Shaq and got 3 rings as a sidekick

2) He works hard and tries very hard to copy MJ's moves

3) He is dedicated and serious about trying to be great

4) Lazy motherfuckers like McGrady, Vince Carter, all these guys had as much or even more talent than Kobe did, but neither of them took it seriously.

don't believe the hype.

Did you write this yourself or steal this too and pass it off as yours?

[cobbler]

Check and mate.

More like Cut and Paste. :lmao

[cobbler]

What's ups MiamiChris? No comment on your passing off another persons writing as your own? Everybody gave Tacker so much shit for doing the same.... what is your excuse?

[Killakobe81]

Miami Heat has to some here and spew crapcuz his team cant do much on the court hope you can KEEP wade ...

[cobbler]

I find it kind of ironic that he comments on just about evey post I make yet totally ignores when I call him out for using someone elses words as his own. Classic doucheness!

[YellowFever]

:lol:lol:lol:lol Funny how people elevate one asshole just to make another asshole look bad. :lol:lol:lol:lol

They are both assholes with mad basketball skills and leave it at that.

[cobbler]

No I did not copy this dumbass thats all me? LOL at all you spurs fans who can't help but to get owned by true facts....

Uh ohhhhh... did you use the wrong account? My question was a direct reply to Miami postiing other peoples writing. I even quoted him in the post and you replied to it. Hmmmmmmmm

And I am Laker fan YOU DUMBASS.

Tacker and Miami the same person... awwwww that explains the plagarism theme don't it. :lmao

[Chieflion]

No I did not copy this dumbass thats all me? LOL at all you spurs fans who can't help but to get owned by true facts....
I don't think cobbler is a spurs fan. Idiot....

[cobbler]

I don't think cobbler is a spurs fan. Idiot....

Miami/Tacker is a moron. Everyone knows I am a diehard Laker fan. Unlike a lot though, I actually have a lot of respect for the Spurs organization. That doesnt mean I wont talk trash and/or think the Lakers are far superior... but the respect is there. Class organization. :toast

[F_U_Buddy]

I thought Lebron was the best player in the NBA last season. In the regular season that is. Kobe was the best player in the playoffs. Lebron did not play at his best and that is on him.

Edit : I should also add it was pretty clear that Kobe had a better team around him than Lebron had in the playoffs.

nothing like "blame it on the team" bullshit...for the team with the best record and MVP...dude grow a fat dick and stop being a pussy...Lebronze had a superior team until he ran into Orlando right...what pussy u are...just be a fucking man and admit the obvious...Kobe is simply a better player...team be dam aside...

[Allanon]

Phil certainly has a point if you're talking about clutch shots. If I recall correctly, only Bird is ahead of Kobe in game winners.

In everything else Kobe is still behind Jordan but he still has 5 years to catch up.

[cobbler]

WTF are you talking about?

Go back and read the posts moron. I was replying to Miami and quoted him and you jumped in and answered. Aparently you forgot to login with the appropriate account.

[cobbler]

I called Miami out for plagarizing.

Then he posted another comment:


Kobe was being compared to MJ when he was 18 years old

why? because everyone wanted to find the next jordan

Jordan was so amazing, everyone wanted another one.

Kobe is the one that most stuck because

1) He played with Shaq and got 3 rings as a sidekick

2) He works hard and tries very hard to copy MJ's moves

3) He is dedicated and serious about trying to be great

4) Lazy motherfuckers like McGrady, Vince Carter, all these guys had as much or even more talent than Kobe did, but neither of them took it seriously.

don't believe the hype.


I replied with:


Did you write this yourself or steal this too and pass it off as yours?


And you answered it with:


No I did not copy this dumbass thats all me? LOL at all you spurs fans who can't help but to get owned by true facts....


And now you edited that post to:


Rage?


Like it's going to change anything.

You are a douche that pawns others words off as yours and Miami just did the same. You obiously used the wrong account, got caught, and are backpeddling like the pussy you are MiamiTackRichards.

Is that laid out clear enough for you?

[cobbler]

whatever... your going on the ignore list with em... cause you are just as idiotic.

Nice try though...

[MiamiHeat]

Hahahaha this dumbass thought I was MiamiHeat

you realize all KoriEllis has to do is post and your ass is owned right?

Why copy my post?


ChrisRichards was already exposed as a troll for trying to copy me

you next?

[namlook]

whatever... your going on the ignore list with em... cause you are just as idiotic.

Nice try though...

What a great idea!

Ignore List aka the Troll list:


ChrisRichards (http://spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=16909)
MiamiHeat (http://spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=11613)
Tacker (http://spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=11534)

All added!

:lol

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I'm totally with mono on the "many people thought" bullshit about Pippen. I was following the NBA closely at the time and no-one was discussing him as the best player in the NBA. Top 10, sure, but not the best. No diss on Pippen who I love, but namlook is kidding himself on that one.

As for Kobe vs Jordan, MJ played in a much tougher era than Kobe, who won his only championship without Shaq since the NBA ushered in the "can't breathe on perimeter players" era. MJ is the GOAT - more rings, more MVPs, more of a load to carry (he had Pippen, Rodman and a bunch of solid role players, Kobe has had more talented teams overall) - and Kobe has a long way to go to be in the same conversation.

[namlook]

I'm totally with mono on the "many people thought" bullshit about Pippen. I was following the NBA closely at the time and no-one was discussing him as the best player in the NBA. Top 10, sure, but not the best. No diss on Pippen who I love, but namlook is kidding himself on that one.

As for Kobe vs Jordan, MJ played in a much tougher era than Kobe, who won his only championship without Shaq since the NBA ushered in the "can't breathe on perimeter players" era. MJ is the GOAT - more rings, more MVPs, more of a load to carry (he had Pippen, Rodman and a bunch of solid role players, Kobe has had more talented teams overall) - and Kobe has a long way to go to be in the same conversation.

No I'm not kidding myself. I was following the NBA at the time and the talk was there. It's 100% true that there was discussion about Pippen being the second best player after Jordan at that time. This was fueled by the Bulls having three-peated with Jordan and Pippen. Pippen was easily a top 5 player so it's not that crazy.

Top ten player? LOL. If you are going to come in here and tell me Pippen was just a top ten player and not top five then you have a serious case of Alzheimer's.

I agree Kobe has a ways to go to match Jordan's career but he's got another 5 good years in him as a dominant player and he could play a few more years after that at all-star level. Kobe could end up being the leading scoring in NBA history (or close to it) with 6-7 rings. If those things happen he's right there. And if Kobe does something crazy like win another 4 rings people will be talking about him being better than Jordan and they will have an argument. But yeah, he's definitely not there yet.

[MiamiHeat]

I'm totally with mono on the "many people thought" bullshit about Pippen. I was following the NBA closely at the time and no-one was discussing him as the best player in the NBA. Top 10, sure, but not the best. No diss on Pippen who I love, but namlook is kidding himself on that one.

As for Kobe vs Jordan, MJ played in a much tougher era than Kobe, who won his only championship without Shaq since the NBA ushered in the "can't breathe on perimeter players" era. MJ is the GOAT - more rings, more MVPs, more of a load to carry (he had Pippen, Rodman and a bunch of solid role players, Kobe has had more talented teams overall) - and Kobe has a long way to go to be in the same conversation.

:toast

These kobe nuthuggers are pathetic.

[namlook]

This message is hidden because MiamiHeat is on your ignore list (http://spurstalk.com/forums/profile.php?do=ignorelist).
This message is hidden because Tacker is on your ignore list (http://spurstalk.com/forums/profile.php?do=ignorelist).
This message is hidden because Tacker is on your ignore list (http://spurstalk.com/forums/profile.php?do=ignorelist).

LOL.

[TheMACHINE]

lol...so...Tacker=MiamiHeat=ChrisRichards=HarlemHe at.

damn...so many log-ins to switch..no wonder he keeps slippin.

[Chieflion]

lol...so...Tacker=MiamiHeat=ChrisRichards=HarlemHe at.

damn...so many log-ins to switch..no wonder he keeps slippin.
Kori stated that MiamiHeat is not ChrisRichards in the cleaning up thread. I doubt MiamiHeat is anyone's troll and is actually serious.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I agree Kobe has a ways to go to match Jordan's career but he's got another 5 good years in him as a dominant player and he could play a few more years after that at all-star level. Kobe could end up being the leading scoring in NBA history (or close to it) with 6-7 rings. If those things happen he's right there. And if Kobe does something crazy like win another 4 rings people will be talking about him being better than Jordan and they will have an argument. But yeah, he's definitely not there yet.

You're totally deluded... he's got 5-7 years left at All Star level or better... :lmao :lmao :lmao

After this season he'll have 1200 games on his legs, 35,000 minutes. MJ played 41,000. Kobe will start to decline soon.

[MiamiHeat]

Kori stated that MiamiHeat is not ChrisRichards in the cleaning up thread. I doubt MiamiHeat is anyone's troll and is actually serious.

:toast It's sad that some laker fans are so obsessed with me that they try and fake like they are me... damn


Kobe fans are delusional. They think we are 'hating'

Fact is, majority opinion is the same opinion I have.

It's all getting tiresome, but they still spam the NBA forum with more kobe threads.

[daslicer]

You're totally deluded... he's got 5-7 years left at All Star level or better... :lmao :lmao :lmao

After this season he'll have 1200 games on his legs, 35,000 minutes. MJ played 41,000. Kobe will start to decline soon.

I think Kobe will still be an allstar six years from now but that won't be due to skill but due to his popularity when it comes to fan voting. Look at AI right now and Tmac they are both washed up but will go to the allstar game due to dumbass fans.

[namlook]

After this season he'll have 1200 games on his legs, 35,000 minutes. MJ played 41,000. Kobe will start to decline soon.

Kobe will have more NBA life in his legs than Jordan. Jordan played 41,000 but also played college ball. Kobe didn't log time on the floor playing college games. Jordan also missed most of a season due to injury and also took a chunk of time off when he was healthy and physically able to play at a high level. He would have logged more minutes if those things hadn't occurred. Jordan also had to play in an era when it was a more physical game, and that takes a toll.


I think Kobe will still be an allstar six years from now but that won't be due to skill but due to his popularity when it comes to fan voting. Look at AI right now and Tmac they are both washed up but will go to the allstar game due to dumbass fans.

Kobe will be like Kareem, Malone, Jordan. He keeps himself in incredible shape. He will be a 20+ PPG scorer into his later 30s. He has a legitimate shot to be the all-time leading scorer in NBA history. 26 PPG over the next 7 years or so and he's right there.