Devin Harris is a better player than Jason Kidd

[Findog]

Devin Harris with a Jason Kidd impression tonight:

5 points in 36 minutes on 0-4 shooting from the floor, along with 7 assists, 6 rebounds and 2 steals. He did have 5 turnovers though. Nets lose.

For the season, he's averaging 17 points and 6 assists per game on a sizzling 39% shooting, including 21% from behind the arc. Muy Caliente! At least we know that he can shoot and Jason Kidd can't (41% from the floor and 39% from three). Iron Man that he is, he has appeared in 24 out of 34 games. Old Man Kidd has only managed to appear in 34 out of 35 games for Dallas.

[ElNono]

I would say they're both worse than Glenn "Big Dog" Robinson...

[Findog]

I would say they're both worse than Glenn "Big Dog" Robinson...

Or Grant Hill.

[BUMP]

Give Jason Kidd a team with limited talent and he takes them to the NBA Finals back to back years

Give Devin Harris a team with similar talent and they are almost on par with some of the worst teams in NBA history :lol

[Findog]

Worst trade ever!!!!!! Lol mavs!!!!!

[Findog]

1) Kidd is still a better player than Harris. Harris would demolish Kidd in a game of 1 on 1, but that does not make him the better NBA player.

2) Swapping them straight up does not make Dallas better right now.

3) Dirk is playing the best ball of his career alongside Kidd instead of Harris. Anybody who has watched him since the beginning of the 08-09 season would easily concede he's even better now than he was from 2005-07.

4) I'd rather have 80 games a year of Kidd than 55 games a year of Harris.

5) The two first-rounders Dallas sent to the Nets are in the mid to late twenties because Dallas wins 50+ games every year. For $3 million, Dallas can buy a late first-rounder with Cuban's deep pockets.

6) It's true Devin Harris will still be in the NBA in 2014 when Kidd is beating his next wife, but the Mavs made the trade to get better now, and it worked. Harris is not some transcendent player that Dallas will regret giving up. It's not Vlade Divac for Kobe Bryant's draft rights.

I find it hilarious that this is getting mentioned as one of the worst, if not the worst, trades of all time, when it's clear that both teams met their goals: Dallas got better in interim, Jersey salvaged a nice player considering Kidd wouldn't have resigned there. Joe Johnson for Tony Delk and Rodney Rogers was worse.

[Def Rowe]

I want some fish and chips.

[lil_penny]

i honestly dont know what devin harris has been up to this year.. its like he doesnt give a rats ass anymore. i swore he was better then this:rolleyes

[ElNono]

One side thing that trade did that worked wonders for Dirk was that it removed the responsibility of being the sole leader out there. Both Kidd and Terry shouldered a lot of that load, which I thought got to heavy for Dirk.

[bostonguy]

1) Kidd is still a better player than Harris. Harris would demolish Kidd in a game of 1 on 1, but that does not make him the better NBA player.

2) Swapping them straight up does not make Dallas better right now.

3) Dirk is playing the best ball of his career alongside Kidd instead of Harris. Anybody who has watched him since the beginning of the 08-09 season would easily concede he's even better now than he was from 2005-07.

4) I'd rather have 80 games a year of Kidd than 55 games a year of Harris.

5) The two first-rounders Dallas sent to the Nets are in the mid to late twenties because Dallas wins 50+ games every year. For $3 million, Dallas can buy a late first-rounder with Cuban's deep pockets.

6) It's true Devin Harris will still be in the NBA in 2014 when Kidd is beating his next wife, but the Mavs made the trade to get better now, and it worked. Harris is not some transcendent player that Dallas will regret giving up. It's not Vlade Divac for Kobe Bryant's draft rights.

I find it hilarious that this is getting mentioned as one of the worst, if not the worst, trades of all time, when it's clear that both teams met their goals: Dallas got better in interim, Jersey salvaged a nice player considering Kidd wouldn't have resigned there. Joe Johnson for Tony Delk and Rodney Rogers was worse.

Seriously you had to bring that trade up? Ugh that one made me sick to my stomach. I knew Joe Johnson was going to be a badass. :depressed:depressed

[SpurFan since 60's]

I've been following my Spurs since the 1960's!

:flag:flag:flag:flag:flag

[XFactor]

Give Jason Kidd a team with limited talent and he takes them to the NBA Finals back to back years

Give Devin Harris a team with similar talent and they are almost on par with some of the worst teams in NBA history :lol

???

[BUMP]

???

Shouldn't be that hard to understand, Tacker

Is a team that consists of Lucious Harris, Kerry Kittles, Kenyon Martin, Ian McCullough, Richard Jefferson, and Rodney Rogers that much better than

Rafer Alston, Courtney Lee, Robin Lopez, Josh Boone, and Chris Douglas-Roberts

[Chieflion]

Shouldn't be that hard to understand, Tacker

Is a team that consists of Lucious Harris, Kerry Kittles, Kenyon Martin, Ian McCullough, Richard Jefferson, and Rodney Rogers that much better than

Rafer Alston, Courtney Lee, Robin Lopez, Josh Boone, and Chris Douglas-Roberts
Ok. I see.

[BUMP]

Brooke Lopez, same thing

[XFactor]

Shouldn't be that hard to understand, Tacker

Is a team that consists of Lucious Harris, Kerry Kittles, Kenyon Martin, Ian McCullough, Richard Jefferson, and Rodney Rogers that much better than

Rafer Alston, Courtney Lee, Robin Lopez, Josh Boone, and Chris Douglas-Roberts

WTF is up with everyone calling me Tacker. This shit is getting pretty annoying. I am not him.

[lil_penny]

Brooke Lopez, same thing

phoenix begs to differ

[BUMP]

lol http://www.acmh-mi.org/thumbtack.pnger

[BUMP]

lol tachttp://blogs.westword.com/latestword/steve_kerr.jpg

[21_Blessings]

Devin Harris can actually penetrate and finish at the hoop, unlike a 50 year old J Kidd. Devin Harris plays very good man defense at his position whereas Kidd is so fucking old and slow the Mavs start him at shooting guard.

[ElNono]

Shouldn't be that hard to understand, Tacker

Is a team that consists of Lucious Harris, Kerry Kittles, Kenyon Martin, Ian McCullough, Richard Jefferson, and Rodney Rogers that much better than

Rafer Alston, Courtney Lee, Robin Lopez, Josh Boone, and Chris Douglas-Roberts

Although in their defense, KMart went on and finally inked a max deal along with an ugly ass tat on his neck, while RJ finally settled and won two championships with the Spurs riding TD's last legs...

[21_Blessings]

This thread is funny and was certainly not being made when Harris was shitting all over Kidd last season.

End of the day, Harris gets the last laugh. While his team is blatantly tanking for a top 5 pick and waiting for Lebron Kidd will retire a ringless on a ringless franchise. Oh yeah and those two draft picks.

[XFactor]

Devin Harris can actually penetrate and finish at the hoop, unlike a 50 year old J Kidd. Devin Harris plays very good man defense at his position whereas Kidd is so fucking old and slow the Mavs start him at shooting guard.

He can penetrate and finish the hoop and play good man defense but what good does that do when you can't get your team to win more than 3 games? Jason Kidd may not be his old self but he can pass and make teams better.

[ginobili's bald spot]

He can penetrate and finish the hoop and play good man defense but what good does that do when you can't get your team to win more than 3 games? Jason Kidd may not be his old self but he can pass and make teams better.

A colored name with 30 posts? WTF?

[lil_penny]

A colored name with 30 posts? WTF?

exactly lol

enough of this b.s. argument on whos better. i say we use this to try and figure out how tacker got his name colored with only 30 posts:lmao

[XFactor]

exactly lol

enough of this b.s. argument on whos better. i say we use this to try and figure out how tacker got his name colored with only 30 posts:lmao

I'm not tacker

[Chieflion]

exactly lol

enough of this b.s. argument on whos better. i say we use this to try and figure out how tacker got his name colored with only 30 posts:lmao
I don't think XFactor is tacker. Kori pretty much stated that she banned all of Tacker's accounts, so I don't think he is Tacker until we can uncover some evidence, he is still suspicious though. With that said, I want my name colored black....

[Basketballgirl25]

It's true Devin Harris will still be in the NBA in 2014 when Kidd is beating his next wife

ok this has me laughing :lol

Now onto Harris and Kidd, enough about them, both can help ad team better then you. This debate between them needs to be put to rest. The trade happened a heck a long time ago, can't change that.

I'd rather have Brook Lopez then either Harris or Kidd. Harris isn't as good as Kidd and Kidd isn't as great as he use to be. So with that said glad the Nets have Harris, but we have Lopez as well so all well ends well. Harris might not be as good as Kidd, but he deff has the better center playing with him. Kidd has the guy I don't even remember:lol.

but like I said this Harris and Kidd talk has gotten so old it isn't even funny, both are better players then everyone who talks about it.

[Basketballgirl25]

Shouldn't be that hard to understand, Tacker

Is a team that consists of Lucious Harris, Kerry Kittles, Kenyon Martin, Ian McCullough, Richard Jefferson, and Rodney Rogers that much better than

Rafer Alston, Courtney Lee, Brook Lopez, Josh Boone, and Chris Douglas-Roberts

difference is Kidd makes players better, Harris has a different game then that and the team Kidd help was older then the Nets are now, so big difference there:toast

[ElNono]

I'm not tacker

Hi Tacker

[Findog]

Devin Harris can actually penetrate and finish at the hoop, unlike a 50 year old J Kidd.

Harris: 39% from the floor, 21% from 3. Kidd: 41% from the floor, 39% from 3.


Devin Harris plays very good man defense at his position

No he doesn't.


whereas Kidd is so fucking old and slow the Mavs start him at shooting guard

Kidd is still a very good team defender. He can't guard Chris Paul, but nobody can.

[Findog]

This thread is funny and was certainly not being made when Harris was shitting all over Kidd last season.

Mavs are better and Dirk is better with Kidd. Harris would easily beat Kidd in a game of 1 on 1, but what does that matter in the context of an actual NBA game?


End of the day, Harris gets the last laugh.

In what? Basketball-related matters?


While his team is blatantly tanking for a top 5 pick and waiting for Lebron

Who will never sign with the Nets


Oh yeah and those two draft picks.

What about them? They're late first-rounders because the Mavs win 50+ every year. If Dallas wants one so bad, they can easily afford to buy one for $3 million. You're just not very good at this, are you?

[Basketballgirl25]

Mavs are better and Dirk is better with Kidd

Dirk is better with Kidd, that's a suprise, guess he is like Kenyon Martin and Sean Williams, they were both better with Kidd as well. Kidd makes bad players look better, not saying Dirk is bad by bad players talking about Sean Williams and Kidd made him look good

[21_Blessings]

Mavs are better and Dirk is better with Kidd. Harris would easily beat Kidd in a game of 1 on 1, but what does that matter in the context of an actual NBA game?


Dirk won a MVP and went to the finals with Harris. Dirk first and 2nd round exit with Kidd. Your anecdotal argument doesn't work here.


Who will never sign with the Nets

We'll see.


What about them? They're late first-rounders because the Mavs win 50+ every year. If Dallas wants one so bad, they can easily afford to buy one for $3 million. You're just not very good at this, are you?

Late 1st rounders are valuable picks if used right. And btw way, you do realize your team is starting a fucking hobbit, right? You're just not very good at this, are you?

[21_Blessings]

Harris: 39% from the floor, 21% from 3. Kidd: 41% from the floor, 39% from 3.


Career 45% shooter. You're using a 22 game stretch after he comes back from an injury to judge a 26 year old? Riiight. Kidd has what, 1-2 years left? You traded 3 young guys for the corpse of Jason Kidd. It got you nowhere. Just like the majority of Cuban-led moves.


No he doesn't.

Yes he does. And he plays it much better than Kidd at this point in his career.


Kidd is still a very good team defender. He can't guard Chris Paul, but nobody can.

His lateral quickness is all but gone. In a league full of quick point guards. On offense he's basically a spot up shooter with no mid-range.

[Rogue]

Dirk won a MVP and went to the finals with Harris. Dirk first and 2nd round exit with Kidd. Your anecdotal argument doesn't work here.



We'll see.



Late 1st rounders are valuable picks if used right. And btw way, you do realize your team is starting a fucking hobbit, right? You're just not very good at this, are you?
Stack was a productive role on 06 championing campaign if not so good as the prime version, and suddenly started plummeting soon afterward.

I agree the GM is a retard that never manages to turn his picks into somethings valuable, or even when he was gifted some decent picks like the 6th overall he would still try to seek a piece of crap like Podkolzin and would have gotten him but for Don's dissuasion.

[FkLA]

Shouldn't be that hard to understand, Tacker

Is a team that consists of Lucious Harris, Kerry Kittles, Kenyon Martin, Ian McCullough, Richard Jefferson, and Rodney Rogers that much better than

Rafer Alston, Courtney Lee, Robin Lopez, Josh Boone, and Chris Douglas-Roberts

Kenyon Martin was an all-star and widely considered one of the best two-way players with NJ (great defender, solid offensive player), his knees injuries slowed him down. Dick Jefferson was a 20 ppg scorer and borderline all-star. He also had Mutombo there and the rest of them like Harris & Kittles were solid and capable role players. Plus the East was ridiculously weak during the time that they made two Finals appearances.

Cant believe your actually comparing Kidd's Nets to what Harris has now. Ridiculous. Harris is currently the better player btw, fucking homers.

[Rogue]

Career 45% shooter. You're using a 22 game stretch after he comes back from an injury to judge a 26 year old? Riiight. Kidd has what, 1-2 years left? You traded 3 young guys for the corpse of Jason Kidd. It got you nowhere. Just like the majority of Cuban-led moves.



Yes he does. And he plays it much better than Kidd at this point in his career.



His lateral quickness is all but gone. In a league full of quick point guards. On offense he's basically a spot up shooter with no mid-range.
If you're kind enough to bring more details here about the Kidd-Harris trade, you're welcome to name the 3 young guys we traded to Jersey in exchange for Kidd. If memory serves the Mavs only patched 2 players of 2nd unit with Harris and get the package convected to Jason Kidd and Antonie Wright who later worked for a long while as our starting SG.

Indeed there wasn't any valuable stocks involved in that trade outside Kidd and Harris. and I don't think a deal sending Diop/Hassell for Wright was bad at all.

[Findog]

Dirk won a MVP and went to the finals with Harris. Dirk first and 2nd round exit with Kidd. Your anecdotal argument doesn't work here.



Wait a second, I thought that Dirk's MVP award was a fradulent joke? You spend all this time calling him out for not deserving that award, and then in attempt to suit another argument, you try to hold it up as something positive? For the record, he won that because he was the best player on the team that finished with the best-regular season record, and the sportswriters felt it was "his turn." Dirk wasn't the best player in the league in 2007. Furthermore, he's a better player now than he was in 2005-07. And a big part of that is having a point guard who can actually run an offense and get him the ball where he wants it.

As for team success, putting Harris in place of Kidd now doesn't make the Mavs better.


We'll see.


Yeah, we'll see him resign with Cleveland or go to the Knicks. Both the Nets and the Knicks are lousy and play in the greater NYC area, but the Knicks have a rich basketball heritage and play in Madison Square Garden. Bron will never sign with the Nets unless they are already in Brooklyn.



Late 1st rounders are valuable picks if used right.

Exactly, which is why Cuban can simply buy one if he feels he needs it.



And btw way, you do realize your team is starting a fucking hobbit, right? You're just not very good at this, are you?

Relevance to Kidd vs. Harris? Your takes are even worse than usual. Have you been drinking industrial runoff or something?

[Findog]

Career 45% shooter. You're using a 22 game stretch after he comes back from an injury to judge a 26 year old?

The book is out on Devin Harris. Pack the lane and he becomes a much more mortal player. Also the bolded part is a broken record. He's ALWAYS coming back from an injury. For the rest of Dirk's prime, I'll take 80 games of Kidd over 55 of Harris.


Kidd has what, 1-2 years left?

Probably, but Dirk is 31 and the trade was made for the rest of his prime.


You traded 3 young guys for the corpse of Jason Kidd.

Harris, Diop and the rights to Ryan Anderson. Pardon me if I'm not losing sleep over it.


It got you nowhere.

Just ensured that Dirk will resign with us when his contract is up and kept us relevant.




Yes he does. And he plays it much better than Kidd at this point in his career.

He played good D under Avery, but that is something that has seriously slacked off in New Jersey. He can't guard Chris Paul any better than Kidd can. Kidd is still a better team defender.




His lateral quickness is all but gone. In a league full of quick point guards. On offense he's basically a spot up shooter with no mid-range.

He's better than Devin Harris.

[Findog]

If you're kind enough to bring more details here about the Kidd-Harris trade, you're welcome to name the 3 young guys we traded to Jersey in exchange for Kidd. If memory serves the Mavs only patched 2 players of 2nd unit with Harris and get the package convected to Jason Kidd and Antonie Wright who later worked for a long while as our starting SG.

Indeed there wasn't any valuable stocks involved in that trade outside Kidd and Harris. and I don't think a deal sending Diop/Hassell for Wright was bad at all.

I think he's talking about Diop and the eventual draft rights to Ryan Anderson. The Mavs sure missed out on a chance to draft Anderson and start him alongside Dirk in a Twin Towers lineup. Eat your heart out, Duncan/Robinson, Hakeem/Sampson.

[ElNono]

Dirk, Terry, Howard + Harris = NBA Finals
Dirk, Terry, Howard + Kidd = 2nd Round exit

/thread

[Findog]

Ridiculous. Harris is currently the better player btw, fucking homers.

In what? Playing cards? XBox? Not beating women?

[Findog]

Dirk, Terry, Howard + Harris = NBA Finals
Dirk, Terry, Howard + Kidd = 2nd Round exit

/thread

Dirk, Terry, Howard + Harris = Greatest Upset of All Time
Dirk, Terry, Howard + Kidd = one of 8 teams left standing

/thread

[Findog]

I forgot, Spur fan thinks Diop is the second coming of Bill Russell and Harris is the next Oscar Robertson.

I also love the argument that Dallas getting to the Finals in 06 means they should've continued to roll with Harris in 09 and beyond. I guess you forget that the Mavs didn't want to continue to roll the dice on Harris being healthy in April and May, or that they were getting diminishing returns with that core.

I'm also pretty sure that Dirk, Terry, Howard + Kidd in 2006 = Title and Dirk, Terry, Howard + Kidd in 2007 = beating the Warriors at least.

There were only five powerhouse teams in 2006 and only three in 2007. The Mavs won all those games in a different league.

[ElNono]

Dirk, Terry, Howard + Harris = Greatest Upset of All Time
Dirk, Terry, Howard + Kidd = one of 8 teams left standing

/thread

Actually, if you're going to point out the worst of Harris with the Mavs, then you should point out the worst of Kidd with the Mavs: Quick 4-1 exit on the first round against Chris Bitchmove and his thug band.

[Findog]

Actually, if you're going to point out the worst of Harris with the Mavs, then you should point out the worst of Kidd with the Mavs: Quick 4-1 exit on the first round against Chris Bitchmove and his thug band.

That's still better than losing to Golden State. The Mavs were in disarray under Avery. Funny how Kidd looked terrible and DONE that 1/2 season under Avery, but under Carlisle they actually won a series and he looks like somebody who has reinvented himself into a very good complementary player.

[ElNono]

I'm also pretty sure that Dirk, Terry, Howard + Kidd in 2006 = Title and Dirk, Terry, Howard + Kidd in 2007 = beating the Warriors at least.

Yeah well, you're pretty sure of a lot of things, but when push comes to shove your team doesn't deliver. With Harris or Kidd. Which eventually will boil down to the 'star' of the team.

And BTW, if you don't want to keep on hearing '4 rings maggot', stop bringing the Spurs into your Mav threads.

[ElNono]

That's still better than losing to Golden State. The Mavs were in disarray under Avery. Funny how Kidd looked terrible and DONE that 1/2 season under Avery, but under Carlisle they actually won a series and he looks like somebody who has reinvented himself into a very good complementary player.

Kidd is a good player. He's a shadow of his former self, but he's still a smart, savvy player, who still has something in the tank. From a health standpoint, I understand what you mean when you say you rather have him than Harris. From a talent standpoint right now and looking into the future, I don't think so.

[Findog]

Yeah well, you're pretty sure of a lot of things, but when push comes to shove your team doesn't deliver. With Harris or Kidd. Which eventually will boil down to the 'star' of the team.

Yes, it's always the fault of one player and one player alone.


And BTW, if you don't want to keep on hearing '4 rings maggot', stop bringing the Spurs into your Mav threads.

Where did I do that? The Spurs fans were the ones to pop in here with their Harris > Kidd opinions. Which are wrong, and I've pointed out the reasons why. Feel free to disagree and challenge those assertions, but why the huwt fweewings?

[ElNono]

Yes, it's always the fault of one player and one player alone.

Wether you like it or not, there's always a star that carries a team. The one that shows up and makes the key plays when it matters. Game 3 free-throw anybody?


Where did I do that?


I forgot, Spur fan thinks Diop is the second coming of Bill Russell and Harris is the next Oscar Robertson.

[Findog]

Kidd is a good player. He's a shadow of his former self, but he's still a smart, savvy player, who still has something in the tank. From a health standpoint, I understand what you mean when you say you rather have him than Harris. From a talent standpoint right now and looking into the future, I don't think so.

Well that's the whole point, isn't it? I certainly don't deny Harris is going to be in the NBA long after Kidd retires, but why is this trade judged as one of the worst of all-time? It should be judged as win-win for both sides. If the Mavs don't do that deal, they have to continue to roll the dice that Harris can stay healthy, and maybe Dirk isn't motivated to resign here because mgmt is not making a move to upgrade the roster. Dallas improved for Dirk's prime, and Jersey salvaged something for Kidd instead of seeing him walk and get nothing after his contract was up.

You can dog Dirk all you want, but he is a top 10 player, and as such, it is possible to win a title with him as your best player. Maybe not likely, but it's possible, and I'm glad Cuban is doing whatever he can to make that possible. We have Dampier's contract to upgrade the roster even more in the offseason.

[Findog]

Wether you like it or not, there's always a star that carries a team. The one that shows up and makes the key plays when it matters. Game 3 free-throw anybody?

Hey, Wade was terrible in two of the games of that series as well. There was nothing wrong with Dirk's performance in the final two games of that series. Wade was simply better, and that's hardly a mark against Dirk.

[Findog]

I forgot, Spur fan thinks Diop is the second coming of Bill Russell and Harris is the next Oscar Robertson.

Yeah, I said this after you and FKLA chimed in with your Harris > Kidd opinions. It's always about Spur fan, even when it's not.

[ElNono]

Well that's the whole point, isn't it? I certainly don't deny Harris is going to be in the NBA long after Kidd retires, but why is this trade judged as one of the worst of all-time? It should be judged as win-win for both sides. If the Mavs don't do that deal, they have to continue to roll the dice that Harris can stay healthy, and maybe Dirk isn't motivated to resign here because mgmt is not making a move to upgrade the roster. Dallas improved for Dirk's prime, and Jersey salvaged something for Kidd instead of seeing him walk and get nothing after his contract was up.

I think the trade is considered bad (I don't know if worst of all time, that's an exaggeration) because you gave up young talent for old talent that basically won't put you over the top. On top of that, you gave up two first round picks. At best it was a lateral move, and so far it has proven to be just that. To Cubes credit, he probably traded Harris when he still had a fairly good value, and managed to get a serviceable Kidd out of it.


You can dog Dirk all you want, but he is a top 10 player, and as such, it is possible to win a title with him as your best player. Maybe not likely, but it's possible, and I'm glad Cuban is doing whatever he can to make that possible. We have Dampier's contract to upgrade the roster even more in the offseason.

He's playing this season like a top 10 talent in the league. That said, I don't think it's possible to win a title with him as your best player, and that's where we disagree. But that's just a matter of opinion.

[ElNono]

Hey, Wade was terrible in two of the games of that series as well. There was nothing wrong with Dirk's performance in the final two games of that series. Wade was simply better, and that's hardly a mark against Dirk.

By the time we got to the final moments of Game 3, that series was the Mavs to lose. And they managed to lose it. You can't just give credit to Dirk when they win, and not have him take the blame when they lose. It happens with everybody: Duncan, Kobe, KG, Lebron, etc. Dirk is no exception. It starts with them and it ends with them.

[XFactor]

Dirk, Terry, Howard + Harris = NBA Finals
Dirk, Terry, Howard + Kidd = 2nd Round exit

/thread

What happened after the NBA Finals? They lost in the first round which prompted Cuban to do something to the team by trading Devin Harris. If the Mavs got out of the 1st round in 07 I highly doubt that Harris would have ever been traded.

[ElNono]

What happened after the NBA Finals? They lost in the first round which prompted Cuban to do something to the team by trading Devin Harris. If the Mavs got out of the 1st round in 07 I highly doubt that Harris would have ever been traded.

Thanks Tacker...

[Double-Up]

What happened after the NBA Finals? They lost in the first round which prompted Cuban to do something to the team by trading Devin Harris. If the Mavs got out of the 1st round in 07 I highly doubt that Harris would have ever been traded.

How the fuck did you get your name is bold? :depressed

[XFactor]

How the fuck did you get your name is bold? :depressed

I don't know I pm'd the administrator that I couldn't find the option in the control panel to change colors and then he did it for me.

[BUMP]

Anyone comparing the two leagues from now and the one back in 2006 is fucking stupid.

In 2006, there were 3 powerhouse teams.

Mavs, Suns, and Spurs. Heat and Detroit were pretty good, but not great.

Chris Paul had yet to develop, Denver never had Chauncey, LA never had Gasol, Boston Celtics were a lottery team, Orlando was still developing, and Lebron was still surrounded by garbage.

Funny how SpurFan seems to forget all about that ignoring the fact that Dallas was playing in a much easier league. Whether we had Devin Harris or Skip Harris we'd still be looking up at a lot of those teams right now.

But one thing never changed in that time and that is the fact that Dallas routinely bounced San Antonio from the playoffs

Suck on that queers! :elephant

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

lol tachttp://blogs.westword.com/latestword/steve_kerr.jpg


:lmao:lmao

[Findog]

Who the fuck cares if X Factor is Tacker or not? He's not starting a bunch of stupid threads and he's posting on topic. Until he turns into a bad poster, leave him be. We're here to ostensibly talk basketball, not get hung up on who is whose troll and whatnot....

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Wtf? This guy joined on January 2nd and he already has his name in color?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Dirk, Terry, Howard + Harris = NBA Finals
Dirk, Terry, Howard + Kidd = 2nd Round exit

/thread


I love how you ignore how weak the NBA was in 2006 compared to what it is now. There were only 3 good teams in the West, one of which had its leading scorer injured that year. If Amare is healthy that Dallas team doesn't go to the finals.

[ffadicted]

Mavs fans sad that ever since Harris left they are noncontenders

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Mavs fans sad that ever since Harris left they are noncontenders


As if they were contender when they traded Harris.

[sonic21]

Dirk, Terry, Howard + Harris = NBA Finals
Dirk, Terry, Howard + Kidd = 2nd Round exit

/thread

2006 howard >> current howard

[Double-Up]

Wtf? This guy joined on January 2nd and he already has his name in color?

He does seem like a solid poster so far though. I doubt he's a fucking Tacker troll.

[Double-Up]

On point again it's pretty obvious Jason Kidd was a good trade...took a while but it worked out for the Mavs in the end, can't say the same for the Nets.

[z0sa]

I forgot, Spur fan thinks Diop is the second coming of Bill Russell and Harris is the next Oscar Robertson.

Mavfan's ace in the hole. Akin to and no better than 4 rings.

[Findog]

Mavfan's ace in the hole. Akin to and no better than 4 rings.

Hey, we have two Spur fans chiming in to say that Harris > Kidd.

What do you think?

[ElNono]

2006 howard >> current howard

That's not Harris' fault though...

[Findog]

That's not Harris' fault though...

It's not a mark against Kidd either when it comes to the fact that Dallas hasn't been able to get back to the Finals. In fact, it's a testament to how good Dirk and Kidd have been together when the Mavs have gotten so little from Howard over the past two years, yet still have been able to win 50+ and a playoff series in that time.

[Muser]

Why does this need another thread? People on this board with any credibility know that Kidd is better for the Mavs and Harris is better for the Nets.

[Findog]

Why does this need another thread? People on this board with any credibility know that Kidd is better for the Mavs and Harris is better for the Nets.

It's Itoldyousoism. I was against the trade right before it happened, but am glad for the sake of my team that I was wrong. How many other people are going to admit that it worked out well for both teams?

[ElNono]

I love how you ignore how weak the NBA was in 2006 compared to what it is now. There were only 3 good teams in the West, one of which had its leading scorer injured that year. If Amare is healthy that Dallas team doesn't go to the finals.

That year was what it was. If Duncan doesn't have planar fasciitis, then we could have had a different series also. But he did have it, so be it.
But even then, I'm not necessarily ignoring that. A lot of things changed from then till now. The underlying point is the same though: If that trade didn't substantially improve their team and chances, then it only made them older and wasted two first round picks. The only saving grace right now is that Harris has been injured a lot.

[ElNono]

It's not a mark against Kidd either when it comes to the fact that Dallas hasn't been able to get back to the Finals. In fact, it's a testament to how good Dirk and Kidd have been together when the Mavs have gotten so little from Howard over the past two years, yet still have been able to win 50+ and a playoff series in that time.

I'm not holding that against Kidd either. But you can't say that Dallas didn't try to improve their roster and coaching since Kidd came around too. One thing that happened after Harris left was Terry elevated his game considerably (just this season he has regressed). As far as Smokey goes, he has been up and down. He had great games against us. Then he disappears.

[DAF86]

Only reason why Mavs fans keep bringing the Kidd trade is 'cause they know it was a bad one and still can't get over it.

[Findog]

Only reason why Mavs fans keep bringing the Kidd trade is 'cause they know it was a bad one and still can't get over it.

Yeah, that's it. We'd keep bringing it up instead of quietly hoping people would stop talking about it if that were the case.

[XFactor]

I think the coaching change should be brought into discussion. Harris was coached by Avery Johnson, who was a point guard. You would bet that he would put more pressure on Harris which probably limited Devin Harris's abilities to some extent. When he went to New Jersey it seemed like he was more free to do what he wanted, after all New Jersey wanted him to be the star and the leader of the team.

Another point is that when the trade went down, I dont think they were even debating on which player was better but rather who would fit their system better. Jason Kidd is a pass first guard and thats exactly what the Mavs needed. The Mavs had alot of talent so there was no need for an attack first point guard when you already had enough offense.

[Cane]

The Jason Kidd trade seemed like an unnecessary one thats a lateral move at best. Grabbing Kidd didn't address the Mav's biggest problems and usually when you pick up an expensive vet like Kidd its supposed to help you become a contender ala Chauncey Billups last season. The Mavs don't have the defense that other ballclubs with ancient PG's have like LA/Denver and thats where opposing teams can do the most damage by exploiting the Jason Kidd matchup (similar to exploiting Nash on the Suns).

Harris provided youth, speed, and the ability to score which is more in line with this era of PG's. Kidd has advantages such as teams daring him to be a spot up shooter which he's performed well at in addition to having more vision on the court however his age and defense makes it a questionable trade-off.

[DAF86]

Yeah, that's it. We'd keep bringing it up instead of quietly hoping people would stop talking about it if that were the case.

You are like that girl that can't get over her ex-boyfriend so she talks shit about him every chance she gets but deep inside she knows that she was better off with him.

[Findog]

You are like that girl that can't get over her ex-boyfriend so she talks shit about him every chance she gets but deep inside she knows that she was better off with him.

Hey, that's a great rebuttal addressing a basketball argument. You can't argue on the merits, so you'll employ an analogy instead. :tu

I enjoy bringing it up because it's clear now the Mavs are better off with Kidd instead of Harris for the tail end of Dirk's prime. I could care less about 2016 when Dirk is back in Germany, Kidd is beating his next wife and Harris is on his third or fourth team. I also bring it up because Spurs fans crowed about the Mavs destroying their team. You don't hear that so much now, do you?

Why don't you try attacking the trade instead of dumb metaphors?

[Findog]

The Jason Kidd trade seemed like an unnecessary one thats a lateral move at best. Grabbing Kidd didn't address the Mav's biggest problems and usually when you pick up an expensive vet like Kidd its supposed to help you become a contender ala Chauncey Billups last season.

The Mavs are no less contenders than the Nuggets are.


The Mavs don't have the defense that other ballclubs with ancient PG's have like LA/Denver and thats where opposing teams can do the most damage by exploiting the Jason Kidd matchup.

This year they do. They rank eighth in defensive efficiency, and if you actually watch them play, you'll see why. They were fifth, but I think the LA debacle on Sunday night dropped them down.


Harris provided youth, speed, and the ability to score which is more in line with this era of PG's.

He's shooting worse from the floor than Kidd.


Kidd has advantages such as teams daring him to be a spot up shooter which he's performed well at in addition to having more vision on the court however his age and defense makes it a questionable trade-off.


Kidd is better for this team than Harris. It's not a coincidence that Dirk is playing the best ball of his career, even better than the 2005-07 period when he made a Finals and won an MVP award.

[DAF86]

Hey, that's a great rebuttal addressing a basketball argument. You can't argue on the merits, so you'll employ an analogy instead. :tu

I enjoy bringing it up because it's clear now the Mavs are better off with Kidd instead of Harris for the tail end of Dirk's prime. I could care less about 2016 when Dirk is back in Germany, Kidd is beating his next wife and Harris is on his third or fourth team. I also bring it up because Spurs fans crowed about the Mavs destroying their team. You don't hear that so much now, do you?

Why don't you try attacking the trade instead of dumb metaphors?

I've explained a lot of times why I (and every reasonable person) think that the Kidd trade was a bad one, I don't feel like saying it again.
All I'm going to say is that if you have kept Harris in 2008 the WCF would have been Mavs-Lakers and IMO the NBA finals would have been Mavs-Celtics.

Before that trade you were elite, after it you became mediocre.

[Findog]

I've explained a lot of times why I (and every reasonable person) think that the Kidd trade was a bad one, I don't feel like saying it again.
All I'm going to say is that if you have kept Harris in 2008 the WCF would have been Mavs-Lakers and IMO the NBA finals would have been Mavs-Celtics.

Wow. Uh, ok :lol

Yeah, every reasonable person had the Mavs with Harris making the Finals in 08.


Before that trade you were elite, after it you became mediocre.

You're the same guy who thinks Manu > Dirk, so that makes a shit ton of sense. The Mavs were getting diminishing returns with that core and wouldn't be better off now having kept that team intact. I can understand why you don't want to rehash it now.

[FkLA]

I dont understand how this was a good move for Dallas, the trade for them was at best a lateral move. I mean if youre going to give up a young promising player in exchange for an expensive established vet youre expecting it to put you over the top...it hasnt done that. If anything its kept them as the same old Mavs team that wins 50+ games, makes the playoffs, but has no real chance at a title.

Also bringing up the FG% as if both teams are equal is retarded, of course Harris is going to take tougher shots since defenses are focusing on him while Kidd is playing off of Dirk. If I remember correctly though when Harris was with the Mavs and had good players to play off of he was similar to Parker and his FG% was always in the high 40s, like 48-49%. The Mavs currently rely on Dirk too much offensively, Harris wouldve been capable of helping him shoulder that load. Kidd cant any more, Id prefer Harris right now over Kidd personally.

[Will Hunting]

I dont understand how this was a good move for Dallas, the trade for them was at best a lateral move. I mean if youre going to give up a young promising player in exchange for an expensive established vet youre expecting it to put you over the top...it hasnt done that. If anything its kept them as the same old Mavs team that wins 50+ games, makes the playoffs, but has no real chance at a title.

Also bringing up the FG% as if both teams are equal is retarded, of course Harris is going to take tougher shots since defenses are focusing on him while Kidd is playing off of Dirk. If I remember correctly though when Harris was with the Mavs and had good players to play off of he was similar to Parker and his FG% was always in the high 40s, like 48-49%. The Mavs currently rely on Dirk too much offensively, Harris wouldve been capable of helping him shoulder that load. Kidd cant any more, Id prefer Harris right now over Kidd personally.


As usual, you're posting retarded shit.

[FkLA]

As usual, you're posting retarded shit.

I love how you explained and went into detail for your reasoning behind your post.

[DAF86]

The Mavs are no less contenders than the Nuggets are.

The Mavs aren't contenders, period.


This year they do. They rank fifth in defensive efficiency, and if you actually watch them play, you'll see why.

Harris > Kidd in terms of defense right now (well, no right 'cause in NJ he doesn't try but in Dallas he did)


He's shooting worse from the floor than Kidd.

In Dallas he would be shooting better 'cause he wouldn't have the freedom to chuck up any shot he wants.


Kidd is better for this team than Harris. It's not a coincidence that Dirk is playing the best ball of his career, even better than the 2005-07 period when he made a Finals and won an MVP award.

I'm sure the Mavs wouldn't appreciate a guy that can get into the lane almost at will.

[Findog]

I dont understand how this was a good move for Dallas, the trade for them was at best a lateral move.

It ensures that Dirk resigns this summer instead of going elsewhere. Dirk is also playing the best ball of his career with a PG that he trusts and can get him the ball where he wants. If you think Dirk is handling too much of the scoring load himself now, at least he can score. He was becoming too easy to defend.


I mean if youre going to give up a young promising player in exchange for an expensive established vet youre expecting it to put you over the top

What is so "promising" about Harris? He is what he is at that point, a nice fourth option on a title team. There's no guarantee that any move will work out, so I don't understand the logic of not doing something because it isn't a guaranteed home run. The Mavs don't have the insider connections to pull off a Pau Gasol type trade. Tell me about this magical fanciful NBA where teams can just pull the trigger on home run deals any time that they feel like it?



it hasnt done that. If anything its kept them as the same old Mavs team that wins 50+ games, makes the playoffs, but has no real chance at a title.

The Mavs wouldn't be winning 50+ games right now with Harris in place of Kidd.

[DAF86]

The Mavs were getting diminishing returns with that core and wouldn't be better off now having kept that team intact.

Say what you want, with Harris you were a 60 wins team and a genuine contender in the league, with Kidd you are one more of the pack.

[Findog]

The Mavs aren't contenders, period.


Then that means only the Lakers, Celtics and Cavs are.


Harris > Kidd in terms of defense right now (well, no right 'cause in NJ he doesn't try but in Dallas he did)

Kidd can get beaten off the dribble by Paul just as well as Harris can.




In Dallas he would be shooting better 'cause he wouldn't have the freedom to chuck up any shot he wants.

And Dallas is sensible enough not to turn their entire offense over to a homeless man's Allen Iverson. You just owned yourself: Harris is a nice complementary piece and nothing more.



I'm sure the Mavs wouldn't appreciate a guy that can get into the lane almost at will.

And sprain his ankle, or strain his groan, or suffer a shoulder contusion, or dislocate his knee when he does.

[Findog]

Say what you want, with Harris you were a 60 wins team and a genuine contender in the league, with Kidd you are one more of the pack.

Yeah, it makes so much sense to equate the NBA of 2009 with the NBA of 2006, when the Celtics, Lakers, Magic and Cavaliers didn't matter. And yeah, you're right, those 60 wins and genuine contention were the result of Devin Jesus Christ Harris, with his 14 points per game and Iron Man Streak of 55 games played per year. We should've traded Dirk to New Jersey so we could set up a Dream Backcourt of Kidd and Harris together!

[ElNono]

The Mavs wouldn't be winning 50+ games right now with Harris in place of Kidd.

Sure they would. They wouldn't with Avery, after they tuned him out, but they sure would with this same roster. What's next? Barea > Harris?

[DAF86]

Then that means only the Lakers, Celtics and Cavs are.

Right now, yes.


Kidd can get beaten off the dribble by Paul just as well as Harris can

No, Kidd can get beaten off the dribble a lot more easily 'cause he's older and slower.


And Dallas is sensible enough not to turn their entire offense over to a homeless man's Allen Iverson. You just owned yourself: Harris is a nice complementary piece and nothing more.

Own myself? When the fuck did I say that Harris has to be a go to guy? he just needs to play the same role he always played in the Mavs.


And sprain his ankle, or strain his groan, or suffer a shoulder contusion, or dislocate his knee when he does.

As long as he's healthy for the playoffs is all good.

[Cane]

The Mavs are no less contenders than the Nuggets are.

When healthy I'm going to disagree. With Gooden, Kidd and JJ playing substantial minutes they're going to need a trade or two to help boost 'em over the Nuggets.



This year they do. They rank fifth in defensive efficiency, and if you actually watch them play, you'll see why.

That I didn't know but I wouldn't say Kidd was really the catalyst or a main reason for that. Could that and more have been achieved with a young and receptive Harris on board? Likely, especially if they made other trades instead of replacing their starting PG.



He's shooting worse from the floor than Kidd.

He's also on a much worse team and organization where opposing teams know if they shut him down they shut out the team like Tony Parker in the last year's injured playoffs Spurs squad. Harris doesn't have as many open looks whereas Kidd has several moments where he's dared to take shots. If Harris was still on the Mavs he'd benefit from the superior motivation and tools they have to offer and he'd likely be a better player.



Kidd is better for this team than Harris. It's not a coincidence that Dirk is playing the best ball of his career, even better than the 2005-07 period when he made a Finals and won an MVP award.

Kidd definitely does help but the PG position wasn't really the Mavs biggest problem. Its also hard to say that its because of Kidd that Dirk is having a great season since Dirk is a guy that you build franchises around and a league MVP himself. Teammates do help but Duncan and Lebron James are also having great seasons and I would be pretty hesitant to credit their trade/draft acquisitions for that.

Kidd didn't have a Chauncey Billups level of impact and Kidd looks like much more of a potential liability than Harris on the defensive end and at times offensively as well. Offensively Kidd is able to cash in 3's and has superior vision but with Harris you don't have to rely on guys like JJ - if they didn't sign on Kidd the Mavs could've looked to upgrade guys like him.

There are some advantages to getting Kidd but imo does not or barely outweighs what Harris or other trades would've brought. The Mavs would likely have benefited more from seeking out other players so they wouldn't have JJ and Gooden now.

[Findog]

Sure they would. They wouldn't with Avery, after they tuned him out, but they sure would with this same roster. What's next? Barea > Harris?

They wouldn't because Dirk would not be playing at the level that he is right now.

[ElNono]

They wouldn't because Dirk would not be playing at the level that he is right now.

Sure he would be.

[FkLA]

It ensures that Dirk resigns this summer instead of going elsewhere. Dirk is also playing the best ball of his career with a PG that he trusts and can get him the ball where he wants. If you think Dirk is handling too much of the scoring load himself now, at least he can score. He was becoming too easy to defend.

Saying Dirk leaves w/o the trade is pure speculation, he's too loyal to leave in my opinion. Hes said before that he cant see himself anywhere else other than Dallas. Also sure Kidd deserves some type of credit for Dirk's good play but come on lets not go overboard, Dirk isnt Marion and doesnt need Kidd to run the break for him or create open looks for him. Give the ball to Dirk and the man will go to work he doesnt need a facilitator.


What is so "promising" about Harris? He is what he is at that point, a nice fourth option on a title team. There's no guarantee that any move will work out, so I don't understand the logic of not doing something because it isn't a guaranteed home run. The Mavs don't have the insider connections to pull off a Pau Gasol type trade. Tell me about this magical fanciful NBA where teams can just pull the trigger on home run deals any time that they feel like it?

Harris was a promising player, hailed as the next Parker by more than a few people. Sure he was the 3rd or 4th option much like a young Parker was for the Spurs but with developement he couldve been more. Currently with the way everyone aside from Dirk is playing on the Mavs, Harris would be the 2nd option. As far as the trade not being a home run goes, initially I thought the gamble was a reasonable one that might work out. But with hindsight, and seeing that it didnt put the Mavs over the top how can you consider it a good trade? Lateral at best, it kept the Mavs as simply a playoff team like theyve always been.


The Mavs wouldn't be winning 50+ games right now with Harris in place of Kidd.

Simply speculation combined with alot of homerism. Harris would definitely help Dirk carry the load offensively though, he'd be a legit second option for Dallas right now and again look at his FG% in Dallas when he had good players to play off of he would help them out no doubt.

[Findog]

Sure he would be.

I don't agree. I think he was becoming easier to guard towards the end of Avery and Harris' tenure here, and I think Carlisle would only gotten marginally better results than Avery with the same roster.

[jag]

And Dallas is sensible enough not to turn their entire offense over to a homeless man's Allen Iverson. You just owned yourself: Harris is a nice complementary piece and nothing more.




And sprain his ankle, or strain his groan, or suffer a shoulder contusion, or dislocate his knee when he does.

As injury prone as Harris is/was, he gave the Mavs the potential to rise to another level. There's a reason JJ Barea gets the kind of minutes he's getting.

Paul, Parker, Williams and Rondo are gonna get theirs against anyone...but Harris gave you the ability to at least match up with those guys. Kidd finds himself on the bench against them and you're left with Barea playing man-D.

[Findog]

Saying Dirk leaves w/o the trade is pure speculation, he's too loyal to leave in my opinion. Hes said before that he cant see himself anywhere else other than Dallas.

All those quotes were after the Kidd trade. There was a chance he could've left and management showed him that they were willing to go out and get him somebody that he wanted to play with.






Harris was a promising player, hailed as the next Parker by more than a few people. Sure he was the 3rd or 4th option much like a young Parker was for the Spurs but with developement he couldve been more.

Harris is what he is. He scores more points because he is a #1 option in New Jersey. The only thing he does better is get to the FT line, and he doesn't play D in NJ like he did in Dallas.


As far as the trade not being a home run goes, initially I thought the gamble was a reasonable one that might work out. But with hindsight, and seeing that it didnt put the Mavs over the top how can you consider it a good trade? Lateral at best, it kept the Mavs as simply a playoff team like theyve always been.

And since that time they've added Marion for Jerry Stackhouse's contract and they have Dampier's contract to use this summer. The Mavs are not through upgrading their roster. Getting Kidd was to keep this team from getting worse. It was the beginning, not the end, of a roster transformation.

[Findog]

As injury prone as Harris is/was, he gave the Mavs the potential to rise to another level. There's a reason JJ Barea gets the kind of minutes he's getting.

You can't gloss over that, the Mavs did not want to continue to cross their fingers that Harris could stay healthy when they needed him in the spring. That's one of the reasons that he was so expendable.


Paul, Parker, Williams and Rondo are gonna get theirs against anyone...but Harris gave you the ability to at least match up with those guys. Kidd finds himself on the bench against them and you're left with Barea playing man-D

With Marion and Howard, along with Kidd's size, the Mavs can get away with crossmatches. Aside from Dirk "not being a leader" or whatever, their biggest achilles heel in the playoffs was lack of perimeter defense, and that includes Devin Harris being unable to stop Steve Nash, Dwyane Wade and Baron Davis in successive years. He can't guard Chris Paul or Deron Williams either.

It would be one thing if acquiring Kidd was the only move that they planned to make, but they got Marion for basically nothing and they still have Damp's contract. I can definitely say with confidence that Marion and Howard together on the court have really shored up our perimeter wing defense.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Roddy Boobeeboo or whatever his name is could be as good as Devin Harris in a few years.

[FkLA]

All those quotes were after the Kidd trade. There was a chance he could've left and management showed him that they were willing to go out and get him somebody that he wanted to play with.

You make it seem like Dirk disliked playing with Harris or something. Like I said I dont think Dirk wouldve gone anywhere, he just seems too loyal. This just seems like a weak reason to try justify a trade that didnt work out as intended.


Harris is what he is. He scores more points because he is a #1 option in New Jersey. The only thing he does better is get to the FT line, and he doesn't play D in NJ like he did in Dallas.

Harris was like 23 when he was traded, to say his increased production is a simply a case of more minutes/touches is retarded. Sure that a part of it but he's also improved...again currently he would be a legit #2 option for Dallas. You trying to say your boys in blue wouldnt benefit from that right now?


And since that time they've added Marion for Jerry Stackhouse's contract and they have Dampier's contract to use this summer. The Mavs are not through upgrading their roster. Getting Kidd was to keep this team from getting worse. It was the beginning, not the end, of a roster transformation.

Well until that roster transformation is complete and brings your boys in blue a title it is not a sucessful trade. As of today Nets win out on this trade. Mavs better hurry up with the completion of this roster transformation though since Kidd is on his last legs.

[Findog]

You make it seem like Dirk disliked playing with Harris or something. Like I said I dont think Dirk wouldve gone anywhere, he just seems too loyal. This just seems like a weak reason to try justify a trade that didnt work out as intended.


Dirk wanted a change and made his feelings known. You ignore your franchise player at your own peril.



Harris was like 23 when he was traded, to say his increased production is a simply a case of more minutes/touches is retarded. Sure that a part of it but he's also improved...again currently he would be a legit #2 option for Dallas. You trying to say your boys in blue wouldnt benefit from that right now?

I've seen what he can do as a #1 option in NJ and I'm not that impressed. He'd still be competing with Howard and Terry for touches in Dallas.




Well than this roster transformation might not mean much once its complete considering the fact that Kidd is already on his last legs. So until that roster transformation is complete and brings your boys in blue a title it is not a sucessful trade. As of today Nets win out on this trade

It's a successful trade because they got better and kept their window open. Both teams accomplished their goals in this trade, so as of today it's win-win.

[FkLA]

Roddy Boobeeboo or whatever his name is could be as good as Devin Harris in a few years.

Based on what some flashes of athleticism and defense? I saw similar flashes from that french faggot Mahinmi and look how he turned out. Yall act like Boubois is a star in the making or some shit despite the fact that he cant crack the rotation, than have the nerve to talk shit about Spurs fans being excited over Blair.

[jag]

With Marion and Howard, along with Kidd's size, the Mavs can get away with crossmatches. Aside from Dirk "not being a leader" or whatever, their biggest achilles heel in the playoffs was lack of perimeter defense, and that includes Devin Harris being unable to stop Steve Nash, Dwyane Wade and Baron Davis in successive years. He can't guard Chris Paul or Deron Williams either.

It would be one thing if acquiring Kidd was the only move that they planned to make, but they got Marion for basically nothing and they still have Damp's contract. I can definitely say with confidence that Marion and Howard together on the court have really shored up our perimeter wing defense.


Making those deals and having Harris aren't mutually exclusive. You could have Marion, Howard and Harris in the 4th quarter. As opposed to Marion, Howard and Barea.

Dirk has great production right now, but over the course of the season i'm afraid it's going to start to wear on him. He's being asked to do everything on the offensive end. Kidd is great on the fast break, but when playoff time rolls around and the game slows down Dirk is going to need help with the scoring load.

I understand what you're saying about Harris...it all makes sense. But with all the negatives that Mav fan associates with Harris, Kidd has just as many. I just don't see how you can spin this as a win.

[jag]

Based on what some flashes of athleticism and defense? I saw similar flashes from that french faggot Mahinmi and look how he turned out. Yall act like Boubois is a star in the making or some shit despite the fact that he cant crack the rotation, than have the nerve to talk shit about Spurs fans being excited over Blair.

I can tell you this much about Beaubois...as an opposing fan I didn't like seeing him with the ball in his hands. He also has the defensive ability that neither Barea nor Kidd possess.

[FkLA]

I can tell you this much about Beaubois...as an opposing fan I didn't like seeing him with the ball in his hands. He also has the defensive ability that neither Barea nor Kidd possess.

Many players show flashes of brilliance. Im not saying this kid wont be any good, all Im saying is wait until he shows this during prolonged stretches while getting minutes regularly before proclaiming him the next great thing.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I saw similar flashes from that french faggot Mahinmi


:lol you did?

[I-Ball]

Many players show flashes of brilliance. Im not saying this kid wont be any good, all Im saying is wait until he shows this during prolonged stretches while getting minutes regularly before proclaiming him the next great thing.


it is not that roddy is "next great thing" for sure, but he has the skills and tools to be at least as good as Devin Harris.
with Kidd as mentor he is likely to be even better, imho.

[urunobili]

How keeping Harris is opposed to keep the Mavs championship window's open?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Based on what some flashes of athleticism and defense? I saw similar flashes from that french faggot Mahinmi and look how he turned out. Yall act like Boubois is a star in the making or some shit despite the fact that he cant crack the rotation, than have the nerve to talk shit about Spurs fans being excited over Blair.


Being excited about Blair is one thing, calling Blair a ROY candidate based off his per 36 minute stats is another, that's what I talk shit about, when Spurfan tries to tell me I'm dumb for calling Ty Evans better than Blair.. I'd think Dallas fans were stupid if they said Boobeeboo is better than Evans.

[FkLA]

Dirk wanted a change and made his feelings known. You ignore your franchise player at your own peril.

Speculation that he leaves.


I've seen what he can do as a #1 option in NJ and I'm not that impressed. He'd still be competing with Howard and Terry for touches in Dallas.

He averaged 21 and 7 last year with respectable percentages. He's more than capable of being a solid #2. Terry and Howard have declined, Harris is a better second option than either of them.


It's a successful trade because they got better and kept their window open. Both teams accomplished their goals in this trade, so as of today it's win-win.

How does remaining the same playoff team and nothing else make the Mavs better? Im sure the Mavs brought in Kidd to try to win a title and not to continue being what theyve always been. If they wouldve been satisfied with what they were they wouldve been better off letting Harris develope. Trade has been unsuccessful so far and that likely wont change.

[Findog]

Speculation that he leaves.

And a good chance of that happening if that don't make the roster upgrades that they have.



He averaged 21 and 7 last year with respectable percentages. He's more than capable of being a solid #2. Terry and Howard have declined, Harris is a better second option than either of them.

And he sucks this year and has been injury-prone for his entire career.



How does remaining the same playoff team and nothing else make the Mavs better?

Because they had come to the conclusion that they were going to continue to decline without making a change. And they are better - it's not the same league that it was in 2006. Denver, Orlando, Cleveland, Boston and the Lakers are powers now. It's retarded to say that they are better off because they made the Finals in 06 with Harris but lost to Denver last year with Kidd. In case you haven't noticed, Denver is one of the best teams in the league now and Carmelo has really started to fulfill his potential as a franchise player.

Dallas is on pace to win 56 games this year. I don't think that's the case if you swap Harris for Kidd straight up. For one thing, Kidd has missed only one game, Harris has missed 10 so far.


Im sure the Mavs brought in Kidd to try to win a title and not to continue being what theyve always been. If they wouldve been satisfied with what they were they wouldve been better off letting Harris develope. Trade has been unsuccessful so far and that likely wont change.

They have 3 more years to make it a success, based on the criteria of winning a title.

[FkLA]

:lol you did?

Yeah :lol

The mothafucker was a beast in the NBDL and showed signs of being a good shotblocker in his few games with the Spurs. He ended up being a pussy though.


Being excited about Blair is one thing, calling Blair a ROY candidate based off his per 36 minute stats is another, that's what I talk shit about, when Spurfan tries to tell me I'm dumb for calling Ty Evans better than Blair.. I'd think Dallas fans were stupid if they said Boobeeboo is better than Evans.

Pretty sure the majority of Spurs fans dont actually think Blair > Evans. Also he definitely shouldnt be in ROY consideration, the 36 minute stat holds some truth though.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Pretty sure the majority of Spurs fans dont actually think Blair > Evans. Also he definitely shouldnt be in ROY consideration, the 36 minute stat holds some truth though.


In that case I don't talk shit about it. Blair was def. a bargain where they got him.

[FkLA]

And a good chance of that happening if that don't make the roster upgrades that they have.

They havent been upgrades. He wouldve stayed regardless.



And he sucks this year and has been injury-prone for his entire career.

Your basing this on 20 games coming off of an injury. The only valid point you make is the injury thing, but with the way he plays attacking the basket all the time you have to expect and live with that. Similar to Manu with us...its not like theyre Grant Hill in Orlando or anything. 60-65 games+playoffs for these type of explosive players is fine.



Because they had come to the conclusion that they were going to continue to decline without making a change. And they are better - it's not the same league that it was in 2006. Denver, Orlando, Cleveland, Boston and the Lakers are powers now. It's retarded to say that they are better off because they made the Finals in 06 with Harris but lost to Denver last year with Kidd. In case you haven't noticed, Denver is one of the best teams in the league now and Carmelo has really started to fulfill his potential as a franchise player.

Dallas is on pace to win 56 games this year. I don't think that's the case if you swap Harris for Kidd straight up. For one thing, Kidd has missed only one game, Harris has missed 10 so far.

I realize that the league has changed, but the Mavs havent. Theyre still just a playoff team with no real chance at a title...the trade was supposed to change that but it hasnt. Therefore as of today the trade is not sucessful.


They have 3 more years to make it a success, based on the criteria of winning a title.

Not sure Kidd has 3 years left in him. Not at a respectable level anyways.

[z0sa]

Blair couldn't play 36 minutes a night. Not now, at least.

[Findog]

They havent been upgrades. He wouldve stayed regardless.

Yeah, Kidd > Harris and Marion > Stackhouse, and Tim Thomas > Nothing. Those aren't upgrades. :rolleyes



I realize that the league has changed, but the Mavs havent. Theyre still just a playoff team with no real chance at a title..

Right. Avery is still the coach and we're talking about some made-up trade for Harris that never happened.

They're a darkhorse contender for the title, same as the Spurs. And unlike the Spurs, who blew their wad on Richard Jefferson, the Mavs have the expirings of Howard and Dampier to improve their roster.

[BUMP]

The Spews are no longer contenders and they will be irrelevant for a very long time.

The only reason they were contenders is because 2 legends fell in their lap. I mean San Antonio is the most irrelevant metroplex in the country and is just a glorified beaner town. Nobody wants to play there, and they are a small market. As soon as Duncan retires, it's off to reruns of Don Quixote for you fucks :lmao

[FkLA]

Yeah, Kidd > Harris and Marion > Stackhouse, and Tim Thomas > Nothing. Those aren't upgrades. :rolleyes

Those are arguable, but regardless it matter very little when these 'upgrades' havent amounted to titles or anything close to that.


Right. Avery is still the coach and we're talking about some made-up trade for Harris that never happened.

They're a darkhorse contender for the title, same as the Spurs. And unlike the Spurs, who blew their wad on Richard Jefferson, the Mavs have the expirings of Howard and Dampier to improve their roster.

Their position in the Western Conference hasnt changed, theyre still the same old Mavs that make the playoffs but dont amount to anything. And we're talking about the Mavs and the bad trade they made not the Spurs.

We still have Ginobili, Bonner, Finley, Mason, and Mahinmi's expirings though :)

[BadOdor]

spur fan is suprisingly invested in a trade of a franchise he calls "irrelevent"....I think spur fan's energy's would be more wisely invested trying to figure out why his team lost to the raptors...

[sonic21]

Based on what some flashes of athleticism and defense? I saw similar flashes from that french faggot Mahinmi and look how he turned out. Yall act like Boubois is a star in the making or some shit despite the fact that he cant crack the rotation, than have the nerve to talk shit about Spurs fans being excited over Blair.

he's more talented than parker when he came in the league. And with kidd as a mentor he will contribute.

[FkLA]

The Spews are no longer contenders and they will be irrelevant for a very long time.

The only reason they were contenders is because 2 legends fell in their lap. I mean San Antonio is the most irrelevant metroplex in the country and is just a glorified beaner town. Nobody wants to play there, and they are a small market. As soon as Duncan retires, it's off to reruns of Don Quixote for you fucks :lmao

:(


spur fan is suprisingly invested in a trade of a franchise he calls "irrelevent"....I think spur fan's energy's would be more wisely invested trying to figure out why his team lost to the raptors...

non-issue

Same reason your team lost...i mean had to get bailed out by the refs against the kings. Shit happens son.


he's more talented than parker when he came in the league. And with kidd as a mentor he will contribute.

No offense but youre french bro, kind of hard to put alot of stock into your opinion on roddy...there's naturally going to be some bias in there. Like argies that thought delfino was the next ginobili or that oberto and hermann would be great role players.

Not saying bowlbis wont be any good, i just think people need to wait to see more of him rather than going off of occasional flashes of brilliance.

[sonic21]

No offense but youre french bro, kind of hard to put alot of stock into your opinion on roddy...there's naturally going to be some bias in there. Like argies that thought delfino was the next ginobili or that oberto and hermann would be great role players.

Not saying bowlbis wont be any good, i just think people need to wait to see more of him rather than going off of occasional flashes of brilliance.

are you retarded? i'm comparing two french players here. I just said he's more talented than parker.

[FkLA]

are you retarded? i'm comparing two french players here. I just said he's more talented than parker.

And argies compared delfino to ginobili, even said he had the tools to be better...like I said no offense but I just think there's naturally going to be bias involved.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Yeah :lol

The mothafucker was a beast in the NBDL and showed signs of being a good shotblocker in his few games with the Spurs. He ended up being a pussy though.


He's played 23 career NBA minutes. Boobeeboo has 237 minutes. I don't think their "flashes of potential" are really comparable.



But with Harris, I think Mavfan brings this up so much because other fans talk about him inaccurately and say Dallas traded away a player who did certain things that he didn't.

For a "lockdown" defender, the only time he did a great job for Dallas against a premier perimeter player in a playoff series was Tony Parker in 2006. Keep in mind, Parker played really well game 1 of that series, and then took a nasty fall that bruised his tailbone, an injury he said made it so he was playing at around 80%. So how much of Parker's play in that series was really Harris' defense, and how much of it was Parker's tailbone injury? In 2005, Nash had the best playoff series of his career (which is partially the coaching, it's been obvious for awhile defenders with size bother Nash while he torches defenders with speed), in 2006 they beat Phoenix but Nash still had a huge series, we all know about Wade in the finals that year, and we all know about B-Diddy in 2007.

Offensively, for a "slashing" combo guard who could get "high percentage shots", he's only had 1 season in his entire career when he averaged over 47% shooting. Maybe he's a better fit than Kidd for Avery Johnson's "everybody take turns creating their own shot" offense, but as far as an actual team offense that involved running set plays with all the players involved requires a point guard who can settle the team down and has a high bball IQ, something Kidd is and Harris isn't. Devin Harris running the point was probably the biggest reason why Dallas always got suckered into running contests with Phoenix. From 2005-2008 before the Kidd trade, including playoffs, they were 12-13 against Phoenix, 6-9 if you only count the games with a healthy Amare (5-9 if you don't count the game played at the beginning of 2006-2007 when Amare hadn't come back yet). Since the Kidd trade they're 5-1 against Phoenix. That's partially due to Phoenix's decline, but it's got a lot to do with a savvy PG who knows not to get in a running contest with Steve Nash.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

No offense but youre french bro, kind of hard to put alot of stock into your opinion on roddy


Yeah a French guy saying a French player is better than another French player is a HUGE bias. I guess as a Jew I'm biased by saying Omri Casspi is better than Jordan Farmar.

[Basketballgirl25]

I'm also pretty sure that Dirk, Terry, Howard + Kidd in 2006 = Title and Dirk, Terry, Howard + Kidd in 2007 = beating the Warriors at least.

Live in the past much:lol, sorry had to say it.

Kidd in 2006 wouldn't have won you a Title because he wasn't on the Mavs that year, he was in NJ playing with VC and Jefferson or beating his wife

[FkLA]

He's played 23 career NBA minutes. Boobeeboo has 237 minutes. I don't think their "flashes of potential" are really comparable.



But with Harris, I think Mavfan brings this up so much because other fans talk about him inaccurately and say Dallas traded away a player who did certain things that he didn't.

For a "lockdown" defender, the only time he did a great job for Dallas against a premier perimeter player in a playoff series was Tony Parker in 2006. Keep in mind, Parker played really well game 1 of that series, and then took a nasty fall that bruised his tailbone, an injury he said made it so he was playing at around 80%. So how much of Parker's play in that series was really Harris' defense, and how much of it was Parker's tailbone injury? In 2005, Nash had the best playoff series of his career (which is partially the coaching, it's been obvious for awhile defenders with size bother Nash while he torches defenders with speed), in 2006 they beat Phoenix but Nash still had a huge series, we all know about Wade in the finals that year, and we all know about B-Diddy in 2007.

Offensively, for a "slashing" combo guard who could get "high percentage shots", he's only had 1 season in his entire career when he averaged over 47% shooting. Maybe he's a better fit than Kidd for Avery Johnson's "everybody take turns creating their own shot" offense, but as far as an actual team offense that involved running set plays with all the players involved requires a point guard who can settle the team down and has a high bball IQ, something Kidd is and Harris isn't. Devin Harris running the point was probably the biggest reason why Dallas always got suckered into running contests with Phoenix. From 2005-2008 before the Kidd trade, including playoffs, they were 12-13 against Phoenix, 6-9 if you only count the games with a healthy Amare (5-9 if you don't count the game played at the beginning of 2006-2007 when Amare hadn't come back yet). Since the Kidd trade they're 5-1 against Phoenix. That's partially due to Phoenix's decline, but it's got a lot to do with a savvy PG who knows not to get in a running contest with Steve Nash.

Harris defense is hardly my reason for why I dont consider the trade successful for Dallas. My main thing is they remained the same team that will make the playoffs but not much else. I dont see how thats a success, Im pretty sure the initial thoughts were Kidd will put us over the top not Kidd will help us remain the same. Again I think it was a reasonable gamble initially, but with hindsight and seeing that it didnt work out I just dont understand how anyone can call it a success. At best its a lateral move for Dallas, meanwhile its a win for NJ because Kidd was disgruntled there and wanted out.


Yeah a French guy saying a French player is better than another French player is a HUGE bias. I guess as a Jew I'm biased by saying Omri Casspi is better than Jordan Farmar.

Again its like Argies saying Delfino had the tools to be even better than Ginobili...pretty typical of foreigners to compare/proclaim that certain players are better than other more established players of the same nationality. Thats not to say Roddy wont be any good, I just think judgement should be saved until we see these flashes in more extended minutes.

[Basketballgirl25]

Based on what some flashes of athleticism and defense? I saw similar flashes from that french faggot Mahinmi and look how he turned out. Yall act like Boubois is a star in the making or some shit despite the fact that he cant crack the rotation, than have the nerve to talk shit about Spurs fans being excited over Blair.

Net fans(myself even) thought Marcus Williams was going to be a star in the making playing behind Kidd, got us nothing, hope Mavs have better luck with Boubois, playing behind Kidd is hard to get minutes, but he does need them in order to improve or he could end up like Marcus Williams and get trade for some draft picks then not play for his next team:lol

[Basketballgirl25]

he's more talented than parker when he came in the league. And with kidd as a mentor he will contribute.

Kidd as a mentor means nothing at all. People use to say Marcus Williams was going to be good with Kidd as a mentor, but crash and burn and fail and where is Williams now, last I read D-League. He could have been good, but just couldn't get minutes under Kidd. Hopefully Roddy gets more minutes and doesn't need minutes to be good. Marcus need more minutes to play to be good:toast

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

My main thing is they remained the same team that will make the playoffs but not much else.


They won 50 games last year. The 9th seed (Phoenix) won 46 games. Given how that was by far Terry's best year in Dallas because of Kidd, how much better Dirk's play became after the Kidd trade, how much better their team chemistry was, and lastly how many injuries and how much instability that team had, it's far from a sure thing they make the playoffs with Harris instead of Kidd.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Kidd as a mentor means nothing at all. People use to say Marcus Williams was going to be good with Kidd as a mentor, but crash and burn and fail and where is Williams now, last I read D-League.


Yeah, that's all on Kidd. I'm sure that's got nothing to do with Marcus Williams being a nuisance and having a bad attitude everywhere he went doing shit like running an operation that involved selling stolen laptops.

[mavsfan1000]

Give Jason Kidd the same team the Mavs took to the finals and their best results are a second round bashing by the Nuggets. Enough said. The main thing is the mavs need some slashers. With Harris gone, so did the slashing.

[Basketballgirl25]

Yeah, that's all on Kidd. I'm sure that's got nothing to do with Marcus Williams being a nuisance and having a bad attitude everywhere he went doing shit like running an operation that involved selling stolen laptops.

oh I know Kidd has nothing to do with how Marcus turned out, just like him as a mentor to that Mavs dude, never remember his name won't matter at how he turns out

[mogrovejo]

I agree that Beaubois has an opportunity to be special, I've been saying it for years.

Excellent shot maker + very good defender + very good pick and roll player + excellent athleticism.

Great skill-set to start a NBA career. He needs to improve in terms of decision-making/court vision.