Article: Rosen: Top Ten Players in the NBA [Archive]

namlook

01-06-2010, 06:11 AM

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/ranking-10-best-nba-players

STRAIGHT SHOOTING

From this corner of the basketball world, these are currently the 10 best players in the league:

1. KOBE BRYANT has been nothing short of phenomenal. His routine game-winning heroics have even surpassed the sky-high standards he has previously established. No contest for the top spot.

2. LEBRON JAMES is having another fantastic season. His immense skills have even been enhanced by the noticeable improvements in both his perimeter shooting and his team defense. But Kobe consistently plays better defense, is still a superior shooter and is a full-time miracle worker.

3. DWYANE WADE’s shoulders must be sore from carrying the load of Miami’s otherwise abysmal offense. If only he had a reliable jumper he could easily break through the glass ceiling.

4. CARMELO ANTHONY commands the widest variety of offensive skills in the league. He’s equally dangerous in the low post, on the wing, up top, on the run and along the baseline. Defense and consistency are his only drawbacks.

5. PAUL PIERCE’s numbers are down, yet he remains the Celtics’ best two-way player and their most dependable go-to scorer. PP could be the most underrated superstar extant.

6. STEVE NASH is once again free to run, gun, stun and have fun. The Suns' retro game plan has reinvigorated the soon-to-be 36-year-old Nash to where he’s dancing and delivering as well as he did during his MVP seasons.

7. PAU GASOL’s intelligence and versatility transform the Lakers from being a very good team to being a great team. He is easily the most skilled of the NBA’s big men.

8. TIM DUNCAN’s skills are somewhat diminished yet he remains the centerpiece of a Spurs team that won’t approach its peak effectiveness until the playoffs are nigh.

9. DWIGHT HOWARD is a ferocious rebounder and omnipresent shot-blocker. But his inept free-throw shooting and his still-crude offense make him more of a Duper-man than a Superman.

10. KEVIN DURANT plays no defense but is an increasingly dynamic scorer.

Next time, the second 10 best.

The 6-foot-8 Rosen played college basketball at Hunter College (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_College) in New York City for three seasons (1959-1962), setting school records for both scoring and rebounding, and earning most valuable player honors each season. After college, he played for Scranton and Camden in the old Eastern Basketball League.

Rosen was an assistant to Phil Jackson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Jackson) with the Albany Patroons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albany_Patroons) of the Continental Basketball Association (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Basketball_Association) (CBA). Formed in 1946 the CBA is the oldest professional North American basketball league still in operation today. He also served as head coach of the Patroons, as well as the CBA's Rockford Lightning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockford_Lightning), Oklahoma City Cavalry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_Cavalry) and Savannah Spirits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savannah_Spirits) (Ga.).

TDMVPDPOY

01-06-2010, 06:30 AM

charlie rosen?

/thread.

Ice009

01-06-2010, 06:31 AM

Kobe and Lebron are the top two on that list, but Tim should be at least third.

TDMVPDPOY

01-06-2010, 06:41 AM

look at wade, his done shit all season and his 3rd......

Bukefal

01-06-2010, 06:43 AM

Lebron should be #1

Kobe #2

Duncan should be somewhat higher on the list. 4th or 5th

Brazil

01-06-2010, 07:27 AM

IMHO Dirk should be in a top 10 list too.

My list: Kobe Duncan Lebron (yes I put Duncan second his per 36 minutes stat are huge and he is keeping alive a team that was a mess most part of the season)

Muser

01-06-2010, 07:51 AM

:lmao

endrity

01-06-2010, 07:59 AM

No Dirk, no CP3, but Pierce is above them????

sonic21

01-06-2010, 08:02 AM

:lmao

timtonymanu

01-06-2010, 08:15 AM

this list fails. no dirk or paul? duncan at 8? howard at 9?

21_Blessings

01-06-2010, 08:50 AM

He got the top two right...and that's it.

BRHornet45

01-06-2010, 08:56 AM

I guess Chris Paul's 21 and 10 just simply isn't good enough to even make 5-10! ... yet 2 years ago nearly the same numbers he is putting up right now was good enough for him to finish 2nd in MVP voting. stupid list.

lebomb

01-06-2010, 09:01 AM

Rosen is a dumbass..................... Pau above Tim? Steve Nash?............no CP3, Brandon Roy? WTF??? Paul Pierce on the list?

MiamiHeat

01-06-2010, 09:05 AM

Who else KNEW that a certain Laker player would be #1 on this list when you saw this was posted by 'namlook' ?

JoeTait75

01-06-2010, 09:13 AM

I'm honestly surprised he has LeBron as high as #2. Rosen has been busting LeBron's nuts seemingly out of spite since before he was drafted.

Chieflion

01-06-2010, 09:16 AM

This list fails.

crc21209

01-06-2010, 10:44 AM

He's a fat old white guy who never played a sport in his life, what do you expect? :lol

XFactor

01-06-2010, 10:47 AM

How is Dirk not even in the top 10?

ffadicted

01-06-2010, 11:06 AM

lol @ Pau being higher then Duncan... that's when I completely disregarded everything this article stood for

I. Hustle

01-06-2010, 11:08 AM

LOL I thought that Kobe was going to be the first 5 and LeBron was going to be the second 5.

JamStone

01-06-2010, 11:12 AM

Maui wowie!

There's bias, and then there's stupidity.

stretch

01-06-2010, 11:18 AM

Dirk should be 3rd, or 4th at worst behind Wade.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-06-2010, 11:19 AM

Dirk should be 3rd, or 4th at worst behind Wade.

If he was on the Lakers he'd be #2.

The Gemini Method

01-06-2010, 11:20 AM

The first two are interchangeable and the rest is garbage. I don't know how you can put Pau, as much as he is admired by me, before the likes of Duncan and Durant. The guy gets a strained hamstring (twice) and is K'Od. To me, that hasn't allowed Gasol to so valued. Don't get me wrong--he is vital to our team's longterm success. I just don't know if he can be place before some of those closer to No. 10.

BRHornet45

01-06-2010, 11:21 AM

He's a fat old white guy who never played a sport in his life, what do you expect? :lol

sons this post sums it up. period.

Chieflion

01-06-2010, 11:24 AM

After reading through this crap, I am ready to send Charlie Rosen packing.

Kobe Bryant: No contest? Ya, right. He hit some game winners. Big deal, Jamal Crawford hit 3 gamewinners in 21 days somewhere around 2006. He wasn't proclaimed best player. Just because he hit a shot to win a game does not mean he is the consensus best player in the league. Next.

LeBron James: I got nothing to say about being LeBron being second. He could have been first as well.

Dwyane Wade: Ouch, no way he is 3rd at this point. He is basically cruising. And the Heat are not really winning that much compared to last season when they had a weaker team.

Carmelo Anthony: No way he is 4th, maybe he would have been 3rd early on in the season, but he has taken a dip.

Paul Pierce: GTFO, this crap is ridiculous. He may not even be a top 20 player in the leaguee anymore. And KG, despite all his struggles, is still the best two way player on the Celtics.

Steve Nash: Nash deserves to be top 12, I believe. He is doing a good job but not a top 6 player in the league.

Pau Gasol: I don't hate Pau Gasol, but he is not the easily most skilled of all NBA big men. If that is the case, the 2009-2010 season doesn't need to be watched.

Tim Duncan: Boo Rosen for this crap. He can shit on Tim's declining athletic ability all he wants but he says Tim's skills have diminished? Clearly has not watched games this season. Even if you go by stats, Tim is registering a career high PER.

Dwight Howard: Deserves to be higher, despite his struggles. Still the best defensive anchor in the league today and defenses still respect him.

Kevin Durant is a borderline top 10, but his defense has improved by leaps and bounds from last season and he is still shitting on his defense. At least he is a decent defender now.

Left out: Chris Paul, Dirk, Roy.

Findog

01-06-2010, 11:36 AM

My list is as follows:

1. Kobe
2. Bron
3-6: Dirk, Duncan, Melo, Wade, any order you want
7: Chris Paul
8: Steve Nash
9: Roy
10-13: Durant, Dwight, D Will, Gasol, any order you want

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-06-2010, 11:46 AM

The way we saw Nash perform in a traditional offense makes it pretty hard to call someone that one dimensional a top 10 player.

Hornets1

01-06-2010, 12:00 PM

No paul, No Dirk? Paul pierce at #5? Really?! Really?!

Findog

01-06-2010, 12:53 PM

The way we saw Nash perform in a traditional offense makes it pretty hard to call someone that one dimensional a top 10 player.

But he doesn't play in one, so I'm not sure that's relevant. Nash is a bad defender, but he's never played with a Duncan or a Howard that could protect him. Magic was a defensive liability towards the end of his career, including the late eighties when they won their last two titles with him. But he always had a strong defensive frontline behind him.

BRHornet45

01-06-2010, 01:01 PM

sons my biggest problem with this stupid ass list is no DOWNTOWN Devin Brown ... the disrespect he gets is disgusting.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-06-2010, 01:02 PM

But he doesn't play in one, so I'm not sure that's relevant. Nash is a bad defender, but he's never played with a Duncan or a Howard that could protect him. Magic was a defensive liability towards the end of his career, including the late eighties when they won their last two titles with him. But he always had a strong defensive frontline behind him.

I highly doubt Magic Johnson was ever half the defensive liability No-D-Steve is.

Findog

01-06-2010, 01:03 PM

I highly doubt Magic Johnson was ever half the defensive liability No-D-Steve is.

We'll never know because Nash has never had a dominant defensive big behind him. If he did, we'd hear a lot less about his lack of D.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-06-2010, 01:05 PM

We'll never know because Nash has never had a dominant defensive big behind him. If he did, we'd hear a lot less about his lack of D.

That's bullshit. Nash running around ball hawking and leaving players wide open has nothing to do with who his big men are.

Findog

01-06-2010, 01:06 PM

That's bullshit. Nash running around ball hawking and leaving players wide open has nothing to do with who his big men are.

It also has a lot to do with who his coaches are. You think Popovich would let him do that? Put him on the Spurs in his prime and you'd hear very little about his defense.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-06-2010, 01:07 PM

But he doesn't play in one, so I'm not sure that's relevant.

I'm not sure how it isn't. If a player is so one dimensional that he can only succeed in a gimmicky run and gun offense that never accomplished shit in the playoffs, that's gotta factor into a who are the top 10 players debate.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-06-2010, 01:08 PM

It also has a lot to do with who his coaches are. You think Popovich would let him do that? Put him on the Spurs in his prime and you'd hear very little about his defense.

I don't need a coach to tell me stay on my man when I play pickup basketball.

da_suns_fan

01-06-2010, 01:29 PM

Im surprised #2 wasnt "any player who plays for Phil Jackson". As if Gasol would have sniffed any top 20 list he made two years ago.

da_suns_fan

01-06-2010, 01:31 PM

jag

01-06-2010, 01:32 PM

I hope Rosen wiped Kobe's cum off his hands before he typed this out.

Darthkiller

01-06-2010, 01:32 PM

kevin durant plays no Defense? does this guy even watch basketball

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-06-2010, 01:51 PM

Youre not going to convince anyone that Nash sucks, so why do you get so upset?

lol if you think I'm upset, and I didn't know saying someone isn't a top 10 player means he sucks.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-06-2010, 01:52 PM

I hope Rosen wiped Kobe's cum off his hands before he typed this out.

It's Phil Jackson's cum, those two are BFF's (either way, Kobe cums on people's faces, not their hands).

dirk4mvp

01-06-2010, 01:56 PM

7. PAU GASOL’s intelligence and versatility transform the Lakers from being a very good team to being a great team. He is easily the most skilled of the NBA’s big men.

:lmao

:lmao :lmao

:lmao :lmao :lmao

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

jag

01-06-2010, 01:57 PM

It's Phil Jackson's cum, those two are BFF's (either way, Kobe cums on people's faces, not their hands).

:lol

Rosen will take a Laker load wherever he can get it...face, hands, feet.

DAF86

01-06-2010, 01:57 PM

:lmao

:lmao :lmao

:lmao :lmao :lmao

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

What's so funny?

Cry Havoc

01-06-2010, 02:00 PM

Paul >>>>>> Pierce

Dirk >>> Howard

What's so funny?

I'm guessing because, at 33 and far from his peak, Duncan is still a better player than Pau Gasol in almost every conceivable way.

Findog

01-06-2010, 02:00 PM

I'm not sure how it isn't. If a player is so one dimensional that he can only succeed in a gimmicky run and gun offense that never accomplished shit in the playoffs, that's gotta factor into a who are the top 10 players debate.

The Suns have been one of the best teams in basketball and have remained relevant for most of his second tenure in the desert. And I don't know how you can say that they haven't done "shit" in the playoffs: they made the conference finals twice and essentially played for the title in 2007, since they would've beaten Utah and Cleveland. Nash is lucky to be in a system that has utilized his talents to the max. You have to go by what he has accomplished and not what his game would theoretically look like if he was in some walk it up offense for the Bucks or Pacers.

dirk4mvp

01-06-2010, 02:00 PM

What's so funny?

Pau Gasol isn't in the top 10, much less top 20.

JamStone

01-06-2010, 02:02 PM

My list is as follows:

1. Kobe
2. Bron
3-6: Dirk, Duncan, Melo, Wade, any order you want
7: Chris Paul
8: Steve Nash
9: Roy
10-13: Durant, Dwight, D Will, Gasol, any order you want

Fair. For me:

1. Kobe
2. LeBron - I wouldn't argue if someone said LeBron #1 and Kobe #2 though
3. Melo - I actually agree with Rosen that he has the best overall offensive skill set (repertoire) in the league
4. Dirk
5. Wade - he's had some below average games this season, but I still think he's a top 5 talent in the league
6. Duncan - sorry, and yeah he's played great this season, but I still think the ones above are better
7. CP3 (interchangeable with Durant, imo)
8. Kevin Durant - last year I said he was a poor man's Rashard Lewis... i.e., I'm stupid
9. Dwight Howard - I know that he should be much better offensively, but he still produces and his team still wins with him as the franchise player, although his scoring has dropped quite a bit
10. Pau Gasol - I guess, but could go a lot of different ways with this last spot

Roy, Nash, and Pierce could easily go in that #10 spot. And, I'm probably a minority in this, but I think one could argue despite his numbers, KG still is right around the top 10 as well for what he brings to his team.

But he doesn't play in one, so I'm not sure that's relevant. Nash is a bad defender, but he's never played with a Duncan or a Howard that could protect him. Magic was a defensive liability towards the end of his career, including the late eighties when they won their last two titles with him. But he always had a strong defensive frontline behind him.

Couple of things with Magic. He never really had to defend quick point guards because the Lakers had guys like Cooper, Jamaal Wilkes, and Byron Scott who would switch over and take the point guards while Magic would end up defending 2-guards and small forwards most of the time. Moreover, the 80s were a period of NBA basketball where defense overall in the league wasn't really emphasized. This was before the Pistons, Bulls, Knicks, Spurs teams that changed the ideology on how to win in the league. Magic had the athleticism and sufficient quickness to have been a solid defender. I don't think it was really coached in his career, especially for him. Nash has played in an era where defensive liabilities are more noticeable, exploitable. The NBA had evolved from a team-oriented game into a one-on-one, exploit the mismatch league. And, lastly, it's key to point out that you talked about Magic being a defensively liability "towards the end of his career." Nash has been one pretty much his entire career.

Cry Havoc

01-06-2010, 02:02 PM

And :lmao at Steve Nash EVER being better than Tim Duncan.

Findog

01-06-2010, 02:02 PM

Pau Gasol isn't in the top 10, much less top 20.

Yeah, he is. He's a top 15 player.

DAF86

01-06-2010, 02:03 PM

Pau Gasol isn't in the top 10, much less top 20.

He's top 20 for sure and right now with the lack of quality bigmen I think he's top 10 also, top 12 at worst.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-06-2010, 02:13 PM

Here's my top 10:

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Lebron James
3. Carmelo Anthony
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Tim Duncan
6. Dwayne Wade
7. Kevin Durant
8. Chris Paul
9. Brandon Roy
10. Steve Nash (Now that I look at it, there isn't a player I can put on here over him)

jag

01-06-2010, 02:14 PM

He's top 20 for sure and right now with the lack of quality bigmen I think he's top 10 also, top 12 at worst.

Gasol isn't playing better than either Duncan or Dirk...and it's really not even close. That's what makes it such a joke.

dirk4mvp

01-06-2010, 02:17 PM

Here's my top 10:

10. Steve Nash (Now that I look at it, there isn't a player I can put on here over him)

Pau Gasol!

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-06-2010, 02:22 PM

Pau Gasol!

The Lakers must be one of the best teams of all time if they can go 8-3 without a "top 10 player".

XFactor

01-06-2010, 02:34 PM

As of 1-6-2010
IMO

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Lebron James
3. Carmelo Anthony
4. Kevin Durant
5. Dwayne wade
6. Tim Duncan
7. Dirk Nowitzki
8. Chris Paul
9. Brandon Roy
10. Chris Bosh

JamStone

01-06-2010, 02:44 PM

Gasol isn't playing better than either Duncan or Dirk...and it's really not even close. That's what makes it such a joke.

Huh? Um, yes it's close. Gasol might not be playing "better," but it's absolutely close. Gasol is just not scoring as much. But he's still shooting 55% from the field, he's rebounding the best in his career at over 11 rpg even with a 7 footer playing beside him who's bringing down 8 rebounds himself, he's improved defensively, still passing the ball well, and his team is 19-3 with him in the line-up.

Just because he's not putting up 20+ ppg, it doesn't mean he's not playing around the level of Duncan and Dirk. He is playing alongside a 30 point scorer and quite a few other very good scorers.

Pau might not be playing "better" than either Duncan or Dirk, but it certainly is close.

stretch

01-06-2010, 03:02 PM

Huh? Um, yes it's close. Gasol might not be playing "better," but it's absolutely close. Gasol is just not scoring as much. But he's still shooting 55% from the field, he's rebounding the best in his career at over 11 rpg even with a 7 footer playing beside him who's bringing down 8 rebounds himself, he's improved defensively, still passing the ball well, and his team is 19-3 with him in the line-up.

Just because he's not putting up 20+ ppg, it doesn't mean he's not playing around the level of Duncan and Dirk. He is playing alongside a 30 point scorer and quite a few other very good scorers.

Pau might not be playing "better" than either Duncan or Dirk, but it certainly is close.

perhaps close statistically. but he doesnt get near the attention that duncan or dirk gets. you really cant double onto gasol because of Kobe, Odom, Bynum, etc... hes not the focus of the defense by any means, unlike Dirk or Timmy, who are without question the #1 guys on their teams. especially Dirk.

JamStone

01-06-2010, 03:08 PM

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-06-2010, 03:42 PM

And it's kind of amusing how people love to talk about how great Pau is when they're trying to diminish what Kobe does, but when it comes to Pau as an individual being compared to some of the other great big men in the league, people find ways to diminish how good he is.

Lakerfan does the exact opposite which is just as amusing. When it's Kobe vs. MJ, Pau is a scrub who could never win a playoff game without Kobe. When it's Gasol vs. Dirk, Gasol is an NBA champion who carried his team full of scrubs to a 50 win season and could do more than Dirk with the supposed "great supporting cast" Dirk had in 2006.

chubster

01-06-2010, 03:48 PM

He's a fat old white guy who never played a sport in his life, what do you expect? :lol
You just described 90% of sports journalists.

Ignore them all, I'd always say. Their opinion holds no merit.

If you want 2nd or 3rd party opinion on a certain player. Listen to those who are directly involved in the NBA (players/coaches/GMs).

alchemist

01-06-2010, 05:07 PM

Fair. For me:

1. Kobe
2. LeBron - I wouldn't argue if someone said LeBron #1 and Kobe #2 though
3. Melo - I actually agree with Rosen that he has the best overall offensive skill set (repertoire) in the league
4. Dirk
5. Wade - he's had some below average games this season, but I still think he's a top 5 talent in the league
6. Duncan - sorry, and yeah he's played great this season, but I still think the ones above are better
Putting a quitter and non leader over Duncan :lmao

badfish22

01-06-2010, 05:09 PM

charlie rosen?

/thread.

yep. The thread should have stopped there. With :lmao post allowed, of course.

jag

01-06-2010, 05:33 PM

That might be true, but that doesn't mean Gasol isn't playing around their level. The Lakers were already playing well before Gasol returned, but both their offense and defense has been better since he's returned. He's making an impact. He just isn't getting as much touches as some other stars in the league because the team he plays on.

And it's kind of amusing how people love to talk about how great Pau is when they're trying to diminish what Kobe does, but when it comes to Pau as an individual being compared to some of the other great big men in the league, people find ways to diminish how good he is.

I'm actually a fan of Gasol. I've been to the FedExForum and seen him when he was the #1 option for the Griz. I've said multiple times that Gasol is extremely close to both Duncan and Dirk as far as talent goes. But at this point in the season he's not performing at the same level as either Duncan or Dirk. Whether it's because the touches aren't there, or because he isn't at 100%...etc, he's not performing on their level and I really don't think it's that close. (Not to mention he's averaging 5 minutes per game more than Duncan) He's playing well, especially compared to other big men, but not compared to other players in the league to point that Gasol is in the top 10 right now.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-06-2010, 05:35 PM

Putting a quitter and non leader over Duncan :lmao

Melo being a quitter several years ago has no baring on today.

namlook

01-06-2010, 05:49 PM

He's a fat old white guy who never played a sport in his life, what do you expect? :lol

sons this post sums it up. period.

You just described 90% of sports journalists.

Ignore them all, I'd always say. Their opinion holds no merit.

:rolleyes Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

While I agree that the opinions of sports journalists who never played or coached carry no more weight than the opinions of you or me, that's not the case here.

Rosen played basketball in college and professionally. He also coached professionally with Phil Jackson. He has written 15 books about the game. His opinion carries more weight than all the people here who have never played or coached.

The 6-foot-8 Rosen played college basketball at Hunter College (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_College) in New York City for three seasons (1959-1962), setting school records for both scoring and rebounding, and earning most valuable player honors each season. After college, he played for Scranton and Camden in the old Eastern Basketball League.

Rosen was an assistant to Phil Jackson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Jackson) with the Albany Patroons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albany_Patroons) of the Continental Basketball Association (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Basketball_Association) (CBA). Formed in 1946 the CBA is the oldest professional North American basketball league still in operation today. He also served as head coach of the Patroons, as well as the CBA's Rockford Lightning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockford_Lightning), Oklahoma City Cavalry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_Cavalry) and Savannah Spirits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savannah_Spirits) (Ga.).

alchemist

01-06-2010, 05:50 PM

Melo being a quitter several years ago has no baring on today.
:lol @ not knowing who the quitter and who the non-leader is

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-06-2010, 06:10 PM

:lol @ not knowing who the quitter and who the non-leader is

How the hell is D-Wade a quitter?

BadOdor

01-06-2010, 06:13 PM

spur fan is outraged that this list is based on how the respective players are actually playing! spur fan thinks that if they add "moral attributes", duncan might make numb 1!!!

JamStone

01-06-2010, 06:24 PM

Putting a quitter and non leader over Duncan :lmao

Kobe's a quitter too but you had no problem with him being above Duncan. LeBron isn't the leader Duncan is and you didn't have a problem with LeBron being ahead of him. Being a quitter and not being a leader doesn't preclude a player from being better than another player who doesn't quit and is a good leader. And, while Duncan has played great this season, I don't think he's better than Melo or Wade anymore, not now. We're talking about now, not career resumes. If you believe Duncan is still better, right now, this season, you're more than entitled to that opinion. However, it's not even remotely laughable for someone to think Melo and Wade are now better than Duncan.

I'm actually a fan of Gasol. I've been to the FedExForum and seen him when he was the #1 option for the Griz. I've said multiple times that Gasol is extremely close to both Duncan and Dirk as far as talent goes. But at this point in the season he's not performing at the same level as either Duncan or Dirk. Whether it's because the touches aren't there, or because he isn't at 100%...etc, he's not performing on their level and I really don't think it's that close. (Not to mention he's averaging 5 minutes per game more than Duncan) He's playing well, especially compared to other big men, but not compared to other players in the league to point that Gasol is in the top 10 right now.

Other than scoring, you haven't stated how Gasol isn't even close to Duncan and Dirk. Gasol is rebounding as well as Duncan and much better than Dirk. He's getting the same amount of assists as Duncan despite not being the focus of the offense and playing in a system that gives equal opportunity for playmaking. He's played well defensively. And when he does get his touches, he's hitting at a 55% clip. Now, if you want to believe he's not even close to them, fine. But, other than scoring, what are your reasons for it? I know you don't believe that scoring is the deciding factor. Otherwise, heck, Duncan isn't playing any where close to the level of Chris Bosh.

chubster

01-06-2010, 06:24 PM

:rolleyes Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

While I agree that the opinions of sports journalists who never played or coached carry no more weight than the opinions of you or me, that's not the case here.

Rosen played basketball in college and professionally. He also coached professionally with Phil Jackson. He has written 15 books about the game. I would say that his opinion holds more weight than all the people here who never played or coached because he probably has more knowledge about the game than everyone here.

The 6-foot-8 Rosen played college basketball at Hunter College (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_College) in New York City for three seasons (1959-1962), setting school records for both scoring and rebounding, and earning most valuable player honors each season. After college, he played for Scranton and Camden in the old Eastern Basketball League.

Rosen was an assistant to Phil Jackson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Jackson) with the Albany Patroons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albany_Patroons) of the Continental Basketball Association (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Basketball_Association) (CBA). Formed in 1946 the CBA is the oldest professional North American basketball league still in operation today. He also served as head coach of the Patroons, as well as the CBA's Rockford Lightning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockford_Lightning), Oklahoma City Cavalry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_Cavalry) and Savannah Spirits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savannah_Spirits) (Ga.).
You say that now but the moment Rosen writes about something that goes against your opinion, would you change it just because Charlie Rosen said it?

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-06-2010, 06:24 PM

chubster

01-06-2010, 06:31 PM

Just for the record, he played in some professional gimmick league. NBA wise, he hasn't done shit.

And knowledge or not, someone who writes every article while his tongue is in Phil Jackson's ass is going to be biased.
If there's any sport journalists who writes without any sort of bias, I'd like to know.

Just ignore them altogether and watch the game yourself.

JoeTait75

01-06-2010, 06:31 PM

Just because someone played the game- in Rosen's case before they cut the bottom out of the peach baskets- doesn't afford them automatic credibility. Mark May won the Outland Trophy at Pitt and was a Pro Bowler in the NFL. Doesn't mean he knows what the hell he's talking about when it comes to college football.

iggypop123

01-06-2010, 06:36 PM

my list :

1. Kobe Bryant

2. Lebron James
3. Carmelo Anthony
4. Tim Duncan
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Dwayne Wade
7. Chris Paul
8. Pau Gasol
9. Brandon Roy
10. Dwight Howard

mogrovejo

01-06-2010, 06:42 PM

Just a bad list.

jag

01-06-2010, 07:02 PM

Other than scoring, you haven't stated how Gasol isn't even close to Duncan and Dirk. Gasol is rebounding as well as Duncan and much better than Dirk. He's getting the same amount of assists as Duncan despite not being the focus of the offense and playing in a system that gives equal opportunity for playmaking. He's played well defensively. And when he does get his touches, he's hitting at a 55% clip. Now, if you want to believe he's not even close to them, fine. But, other than scoring, what are your reasons for it? I know you don't believe that scoring is the deciding factor. Otherwise, heck, Duncan isn't playing any where close to the level of Chris Bosh.

As far as Duncan is concerned, he's been the focal point of everything for the Spurs. On both ends of the floor everything hinges on Duncan. He's absolutely carried the Spurs to where they are right now. Gasol doesn't have to worry about carrying his team...he's in a complimentary role which allows him to get easier looks on the offensive end and good support on the defensive end. Gasol will never have to worry about carrying that team. I just don't think you can compare them right now with what Duncan has been required to do for the Spurs.

Kevin Durant 35

01-06-2010, 07:27 PM

Uhmm... KD plays no defense? Really? The whole list is fucked up what else can i say

ffadicted

01-06-2010, 07:28 PM

Other than scoring, you haven't stated how Gasol isn't even close to Duncan and Dirk. Gasol is rebounding as well as Duncan and much better than Dirk. He's getting the same amount of assists as Duncan despite not being the focus of the offense and playing in a system that gives equal opportunity for playmaking. He's played well defensively. And when he does get his touches, he's hitting at a 55% clip. Now, if you want to believe he's not even close to them, fine. But, other than scoring, what are your reasons for it? I know you don't believe that scoring is the deciding factor. Otherwise, heck, Duncan isn't playing any where close to the level of Chris Bosh.

Good points. Duncan is scoring and blocking more, but Pau is right up there, and is rebounding better. But it's sometimes about the intangibles. Ask anybody out there if the lakers, for this season only, would want to do a Pau for Duncan swap straight up. I guarantee you that you won't find a GM, Coach, Player or fan that doesn't do it, honestly.

(Edit: that's if you're not considering fitting into the triangle offense right away, but that's a different topic altogether, even though I think Duncan can pick it up quickly)

JoeTait75

01-06-2010, 07:31 PM

Uhmm... KD plays no defense? Really? The whole list is fucked up what else can i say

In the wonderful world of Charlie Rosen, everyone not named Scottie Pippen or Kobe Bryant plays lousy defense.

JamStone

01-06-2010, 07:32 PM

As far as Duncan is concerned, he's been the focal point of everything for the Spurs. On both ends of the floor everything hinges on Duncan. He's absolutely carried the Spurs to where they are right now. Gasol doesn't have to worry about carrying his team...he's in a complimentary role which allows him to get easier looks on the offensive end and good support on the defensive end. Gasol will never have to worry about carrying that team. I just don't think you can compare them right now with what Duncan has been required to do for the Spurs.

I still don't agree that that means Gasol isn't "even close" to playing near his level. When Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili were playing at their best and took a lot of pressure off of Duncan, did it mean Duncan wasn't as good as when he has more responsibility? No. It simply means things were easier. Paul Pierce was widely considered somewhere along the lines of a top 25-30 player in the league before KG and Ray Allen joined Boston. But after, all of a sudden he's a top 10 player or at least borderline the last couple seasons. Having more help on your team doesn't mean you're not as good as a player who doesn't have as much help.

Some Kobe and Laker haters like to discredit them any way they can, and same with Pau Gasol now too. There has been plenty of people extolling the virtues of how much talent the Lakers have. But after Kobe and Gasol, it's not as impressive as people like to make it out to be. Fisher sucks now. Ron Artest has disappointed offensively. Odom has been a good rebounder but not great at anything else. And Andrew Bynum and everyone are coming to find out he's more of a "solid" center than a future perennial all star, as he's been basically average since Gasol returned. And we can stop talking about their depth as we have come to find out that outside of Odom and an occasional big game from either Farmar or Shannon Brown, their bench isn't that great.

Gasol is definitely a second fiddle. But I've seen plenty of Spurs fans rank Tony Parker in the top 5 if not top 3 PGs in the league and at the same level as CP3 and Deron Williams and Nash if not better than those guys, even though the Spurs still start and end with Duncan as the focal point of the team and Tony is still a complement to Tim. Same with Ginobili, I've seen many if not the majority of Spurs fans say they'd take Manu over any 2-guard in the league after Kobe and Wade, and some taking Manu over even Wade. But, now, put Pau in the same equation Pau isn't "even close" to Dirk or Duncan.

Gasol doesn't have as much pressure as Dirk or Duncan. He doesn't carry the team and doesn't need to. But, I think he's playing at that level regardless.

TD 21

01-06-2010, 07:35 PM

Rosen is completely biased to all things Lakers, because of his never-ending obsession with his long-time buddy Jackson and his recent obsession with Bryant and Gasol.

I'll to a tier system of the top 20 players in the NBA (within' these tiers, the players are listed in no particular order):

Tier 1: James, Duncan, Bryant, Wade, Paul

Tier 2: Howard, Anthony, Pierce, Nowitzki, Nash

Tier 3: Gasol, Roy, Williams, Bosh, Durant

Tier 4: Garnett, Parker, Stoudemire, Johnson, Yao

Chieflion

01-06-2010, 07:44 PM

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-06-2010, 07:47 PM

In the wonderful world of Charlie Rosen, everyone not named Scottie Pippen or Kobe Bryant plays lousy defense.

:lmao

jag

01-06-2010, 08:30 PM

I still don't agree that that means Gasol isn't "even close" to playing near his level. When Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili were playing at their best and took a lot of pressure off of Duncan, did it mean Duncan wasn't as good as when he has more responsibility? No. It simply means things were easier. Paul Pierce was widely considered somewhere along the lines of a top 25-30 player in the league before KG and Ray Allen joined Boston. But after, all of a sudden he's a top 10 player or at least borderline the last couple seasons. Having more help on your team doesn't mean you're not as good as a player who doesn't have as much help.

Some Kobe and Laker haters like to discredit them any way they can, and same with Pau Gasol now too. There has been plenty of people extolling the virtues of how much talent the Lakers have. But after Kobe and Gasol, it's not as impressive as people like to make it out to be. Fisher sucks now. Ron Artest has disappointed offensively. Odom has been a good rebounder but not great at anything else. And Andrew Bynum and everyone are coming to find out he's more of a "solid" center than a future perennial all star, as he's been basically average since Gasol returned. And we can stop talking about their depth as we have come to find out that outside of Odom and an occasional big game from either Farmar or Shannon Brown, their bench isn't that great.

Gasol is definitely a second fiddle. But I've seen plenty of Spurs fans rank Tony Parker in the top 5 if not top 3 PGs in the league and at the same level as CP3 and Deron Williams and Nash if not better than those guys, even though the Spurs still start and end with Duncan as the focal point of the team and Tony is still a complement to Tim. Same with Ginobili, I've seen many if not the majority of Spurs fans say they'd take Manu over any 2-guard in the league after Kobe and Wade, and some taking Manu over even Wade. But, now, put Pau in the same equation Pau isn't "even close" to Dirk or Duncan.

Gasol doesn't have as much pressure as Dirk or Duncan. He doesn't carry the team and doesn't need to. But, I think he's playing at that level regardless.

You make good points, especially about the Kobe/Gasol hate. I’m not trying to play the Kobe/Gasol buildup/teardown game, and I certainly wasn’t commenting on Gasol’s capabilities. I think you misunderstood my original statement. I never said Gasol wasn’t as good …I said he wasn’t playing as well. And I still don’t think he is.

Duncan has had a lot of help the past few seasons, especially when Parker and Manu have been healthy. That didn’t mean that Duncan wasn’t as good or qualified…it just meant that he didn’t have to play at an optimum level on the offensive end of the floor. This year has been different, however. Duncan’s help has been inconsistent and sometimes nonexistent. His lack of help has required him to play at such a high level, and to carry the load on both ends of the floor.

You went through the Laker lineup (other than Kobe and Gasol) and pointed out how various players are either overrated or under qualified. Gasol has missed 12 games. If Duncan had missed 12 games then the Spurs would probably be close to a .500 team right now (if not worse). Gasol apparently isn’t having that type of an impact. Gasol’s impact, while important, just doesn’t measure up to Duncan’s. It just doesn’t seem comparable. It’s not because he isn’t capable, it’s just that there simply isn’t a role available on the Lakers where Gasol needs to play at the level Duncan has been required to play at. And he certainly hasn’t been under the pressure to perform that comes along with the role Duncan has accepted throughout the season.
In a similar way, Dirk’s importance to the Mavs is immeasurable. He’s had to be the Swiss Army knife of the Mavericks offense. If he slacks, they lose. You can say he’s one dimensional, but that’s not quite the case this year. He’s averaging over 8pts per game more than Gasol and is ranked ahead of Gasol in PER. And scoring is only overrated if your team is losing. Bosh is putting up his stats on a sub-.500 team…that’s certainly not the case with Dirk.

As far as Duncan’s stats vs. Gasol’s stats: Again, Duncan produces his stats as the anchor – on both ends of the floor. And he’s putting up those stats while playing less minutes. Duncan is also ranked #2 in the league in PER, right behind Lebron. Gasol is ranked 17th.

JamStone

01-06-2010, 08:43 PM

I guess my major objection is in saying Pau "isn't even close" to the level of Dirk Duncan. I certainly am not arguing that Pau is "as good" or "better." I'm simply arguing against the notion that he's "not even close."

21_Blessings

01-06-2010, 08:52 PM

Magic was a defensive liability towards the end of his career, including the late eighties when they won their last two titles with him. But he always had a strong defensive frontline behind him.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about here. Stick to overrating everything Mavericks.

Even mentioning Magic's defense in the same breath as Nash is a fucking insult to basketball.

Magic had the ability to defend every position on the basketball court. Can Nash make that claim? Sure Magic couldn't stay in front of Isiah in the late 80's but that goes for the rest of the league. Magic has a career defensive rating of 104 (Nash is at 116 this year) and averaged 2 steals. Calling Magic a liability is fucking dumb I'd bet you barely even watched the man play.

exstatic

01-06-2010, 09:25 PM

Rosen was an assistant to Phil Jackson with the Albany Patroons of the Continental Basketball Association

I guess that explains the non-stop fellatio...

vicphoenix13

01-07-2010, 12:18 AM

People keep ripping Nash's defense without mentioning how poor the defense is around him. He has never played with a great defensive front line. By the way, how many good defensive point guards are there in the NBA? Its not like the 80's and 90's when guys like Isiah, Payton and Stockton could dominate on defense.

Another thing that's underrated about Nash is his shooting ability. Its amazing that a soon to be 36 year old point guard is shooting 54 percent from the field this season. In fact, this is sixth straight season shooting above 50 percent from the field.

Findog

01-07-2010, 12:58 AM

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about here.

Yes I do. I watched the Lakers back then, something you probably didn't start doing until they signed Shaq.

Even mentioning Magic's defense in the same breath as Nash is a fucking insult to basketball.

Did I say Magic was as bad a defender as Nash? No, I said he was a defensive liability towards the end of his career, but it didn't hurt his teams as much as Nash's defense hurt his.

Magic had the ability to defend every position on the basketball court

In his prime, sure. But that's not what I was talking about now, was it? Can you learn to read before ignorantly spouting off?

Calling Magic a liability is fucking dumb I'd bet you barely even watched the man play.

He was a liability towards the end of his career, but like Jamstone said, it didn't matter as much because of the nature of the league back then.

HarlemHeat37

01-07-2010, 04:22 AM

I don't base my lists on JUST this season, since there are many factors..I go by history + current play + circumstances..I'd go..

#1. Lebron..
#2. Rapist..
#3. Wade(talent-wise..he's obviously coasting this year)..
#4. Paul..
#5. Duncan..
#6. Howard..
#7. Nowitzki..
#8. Anthony..
#9. Durant..
#10. Bosh..
#11. Roy..
#12. Gasol..
#13. Williams..
#14. Nash..
#15. Johnson..
#16. Pierce..
#17. Garnett..

I can't decide after this..probably forgetting somebody..

Chieflion

01-07-2010, 05:08 AM

HarlemHeat37

01-07-2010, 05:45 AM

I give Johnson credit for being the #1 scorer/playmaker on their team and the guy that receives the most attention..I think he's been overrated TBH, but I think around that spot is accurate..

As for Pierce, I think he's overrated by most people and massively overrated by the media, but I don't think he really shows his true worth until the playoffs now, so I think he'll show it by then..

Agree on Randolph..I'd have to see if he can continue it all year without letting the old Randolph return..if he's shaken his team cancer ways, he's a top 20 guy in the NBA..

HarlemHeat37

01-07-2010, 05:45 AM

dirk4mvp

01-07-2010, 05:48 AM

Agree on Randolph..I'd have to see if he can continue it all year without letting the old Randolph return..if he's shaken his team cancer ways, he's a top 20 guy in the NBA..

He'll just get unfairly labeled as being a player putting up good stats on a bad team. Randolph is legit.

MiamiHeat

01-07-2010, 05:54 AM

namlook

01-07-2010, 12:16 PM

Corrected list:

I don't base my lists on JUST this season, since there are many factors..I go by history + current play + circumstances..I'd go..

#1. Crybaby / Hypocrite / Bad In-Game Dancer ( http://youbeenblinded.com/video-lebron-james-doesnt-shake-hands-talk-after-loss/3306 ) ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7vlWi1rucI )
#2. Rapist
#3. Cheater ( http://www.page2live.com/2009/02/09/ex-partner-d-wades-condo-used-for-sex-parties/ )
#4. Flopper ( http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94692 )
#5. Duncan..
#6. Howard..
#7. Nowitzki..
#8. Anthony..
#9. Durant..
#10. Bosh..
#11. Roy..
#12. Gasol..
#13. Williams..
#14. Nash..
#15. Johnson..
#16. Bad Actor / Faker ( http://dimemag.com/2008/06/paul-pierce-nba-finals-fake-injury/ )
http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2008/06/06/va1237312210745/Boston-Celtics-Paul-Pierce-6080583.jpg
#17. Garnett..

I can't decide after this..probably forgetting somebody..

da_suns_fan

01-07-2010, 12:52 PM

Pau Gasol isn't in the top 10, much less top 20.

You got that backwards, champ.

21_Blessings

01-07-2010, 03:44 PM

Yes I do. I watched the Lakers back then, something you probably didn't start doing until they signed Shaq.

No you didn't. Just look at the words your posting.

Did I say Magic was as bad a defender as Nash? No, I said he was a defensive liability towards the end of his career, but it didn't hurt his teams as much as Nash's defense hurt his.

He wasn't a defensive liability in the late 80s. Maybe you're confusing him with the 95 version. Proof enough you never watched those Lakers teams.

In his prime, sure. But that's not what I was talking about now, was it? Can you learn to read before ignorantly spouting off?

Late 80s was his prime.

He was a liability towards the end of his career, but like Jamstone said, it didn't matter as much because of the nature of the league back then.

No he wasn't. I already explained this to you. A player that can defend every position on the court and gets you 2 steals a game is not a defensive liability. You would be a retard to think otherwise.

What does Nash do on defense besides get beat and flop? Exactly. Next time don't directly compare Magic to Nash you stupid fucking twat. Implying that Magic had to be hidden is funny enough.

21_Blessings

01-07-2010, 03:52 PM

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-07-2010, 03:58 PM

People keep ripping Nash's defense without mentioning how poor the defense is around him. He has never played with a great defensive front line. By the way, how many good defensive point guards are there in the NBA? Its not like the 80's and 90's when guys like Isiah, Payton and Stockton could dominate on defense.

You might want to time this rinse repeat post better from here on out, it's probably not smart to give a "Nash's defense is criticized more than it should be" sermon right after Aaron Brooks drops a career high scoring night on him.

Findog

01-07-2010, 04:02 PM

He wasn't a defensive liability in the late 80s. Maybe you're confusing him with the 95 version. Proof enough you never watched those Lakers teams.

I've been watching basketball longer than you have.

Late 80s was his prime.

No, he was already showing signs of slippage because of teh AIDS. He had trouble keeping quick guards in front of him.

No he wasn't. I already explained this to you. A player that can defend every position on the court and gets you 2 steals a game is not a defensive liability. You would be a retard to think otherwise.

You're a retard if you think he played the same level of defense from 88-90 that he did earlier in his career. The Lakers won 5 titles with him and he's one of the ten best players of all time, so you don't have to get your Victoria's Secret undercarriage tied up in knots when somebody suggests he was less than perfect.

What does Nash do on defense besides get beat and flop? Exactly.

What does Nash have to do with Magic?

Next time don't directly compare Magic to Nash you stupid fucking twat

Nobody in this thread did any such thing, cum dumpster. If you can't grasp the point I was trying to make about how strong defensive frontlines can mask inadequate perimeter defense, then it's not my problem your presence here is a waste of bandwidth.

21_Blessings

01-07-2010, 04:15 PM

I've been watching basketball longer than you have.

No you haven't. You continually prove that you know shit about basketball. For an example see below.

No, he was already showing signs of slippage because of teh AIDS. He had trouble keeping quick guards in front of him.

Slippage? Are you retarded? He won back to back MVPs in the late 80s you moronic creature. Like I said, he couldn't keep Isiah in front of him but no one else in the league could either. Including Michael Cooper and MJ.

You're a retard if you think he played the same level of defense from 88-90 that he did earlier in his career.

So now you're backtracking and resort to strawmans. The Findog way! Makes sense given your post count. Magic was an elite team defender and above average overall defender in the late 80s. The fact the Lakers could switch on almost any pick roll due to Magic's defensive versatility is evidence of alone that he wasn't a liablity. You never watched Showtime. Only read about it on the Sports Guy's blog.

The Lakers won 5 titles with him and he's one of the ten best players of all time, so you don't have to get your Victoria's Secret undercarriage tied up in knots when somebody suggests he was less than perfect.

This is about you saying stupid shit like Magic was a liability on defense during his prime and that Nash could be hidden just like him! Haha. Seriously, you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to Magic Johnson.

What does Nash have to do with Magic?

You brought it up first.

Nobody in this thread did any such thing, cum dumpster. If you can't grasp the point the point I was trying to make about how strong defensive frontlines can mask inadequate perimeter defense, then it's not my problem your presence here is a waste of bandwidth.

I grasped your point just fine. But your point did not make any sense whatsoever after you brought up Magic. You didn't have to mask Magic's defense because it was versatile. You can't mask Nash's defense when it sucks shit on every possible level.

If you actually watched Showtime you would have known Kareem in his late 30's was a bigger problem on D than Magic ever was. Which again, makes your point about Magic in the late 80s rather dumb. Maybe you're trying to sound edgy talking about the old school. But you obviously were just parroting some other dumb shmuck's opinion because you know jackshit about Magic Johnson late 80s Lakers.

Findog

01-07-2010, 04:29 PM

No you haven't. You continually prove that you know shit about basketball. For an example see below.

I'll take that as a compliment coming from you, considering all of your takes are purple and gold twattery.

Slippage? Are you retarded? He won back to back MVPs in the late 80s you moronic creature.

That doesn't mean he was the best on the ball defender at his position. Steve Nash won an MVP award despite being a much worse defender. I remember Kevin Johnson carving him up in 1990 when the Lakers were sent home early.

So now you're backtracking and resort to strawmans. The Findog way!

No, just spoon feeding it extra slow in the hopes that maybe you can understand.

You never watched Showtime.

Watched just about every minute of the 88 Conference Finals. Shows what you know, which is...not much.

This is about you saying stupid shit like Magic was a liability on defense during his prime and that Nash could be hidden just like him

Never said that. Said Nash never had a defensive frontline that could cover for him like Magic had when he had trouble keeping guys in front of him.

Seriously, you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to Magic Johnson.

And you have no idea how to process words into something forming coherent reading comprehension. If we don't slob purple and gold knob nonstop, we're idiots that don't know anything about basketball.

21_Blessings

01-07-2010, 04:47 PM

That doesn't mean he was the best on the ball defender at his position. Steve Nash won an MVP award despite being a much worse defender. I remember Kevin Johnson carving him up in 1990 when the Lakers were sent home early.

I never claimed he was the best on ball defender at his position. But he was 10 times more effective than Nash defensively and was by no means a liability. Kevin Johnson carved up Gary Payton too. So I'm not sure how that point makes your argument less retarded.

No, just spoon feeding it extra slow in the hopes that maybe you can understand.

You're spoon feeding us retarded takes about shit you know nothing about it.

Watched just about every minute of the 88 Conference Finals. Shows what you know, which is...not much.

Says the basketball retard that called prime Magic a defensive liability in the same vain as Steve Nash. And that Magic's D was masked by a 40 year old Kareem. Jesus Christ are you dumb.

Never said that. Said Nash never had a defensive frontline that could cover for him like Magic had when he had trouble keeping guys in front of him.

He had Kurt Thomas and Marion a couple years ago. Both good defensive players. Why are you acting like Kareem pushing 40 was a defensive force? Thomas D was as good as AC Green's. Marion was a better defender than Worthy. Amare's d sucks but he could give as many blocks as old Kareem and show on pick/rolls quicker.

And you have no idea how to process words into something forming coherent reading comprehension. If we don't slob purple and gold knob nonstop, we're idiots that don't know anything about basketball.

You said something completely retarded and untrue. You should be prepared to be called on it for your ignorance. Stop acting like you know anything about Magic Johnson or those Lakers teams when you obviously don't.

Findog

01-07-2010, 05:06 PM

Kevin Johnson carved up Gary Payton too. So I'm not sure how that point makes your argument less retarded.

I'm not sure how claiming Kevin Johnson in his prime in the early nineties carving up a young Gary Payton helps yours.

Says the basketball retard that called prime Magic a defensive liability in the same vain as Steve Nash

It's vein. And if you could read and not lazily resort to strawmen, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

And that Magic's D was masked by a 40 year old Kareem. Jesus Christ are you dumb.

Translation: "I won't respond to the points you make, but the points I wish you had made so I can knock them out of the park."

So the Lakers didn't have Mychal Thompson, AC Green, Elden Campbell and Sam Perkins behind Magic after they won their last Showtime title in 88?

He had Kurt Thomas and Marion a couple years ago. Both good defensive players.

And the 2007 Suns came pretty close to winning a title that season, since they would've beaten Utah and Cleveland. That was the best battle they ever gave the Spurs. Which pretty much helps my argument. The Suns were 12th in defensive efficiency that year, meaning they were better than average, and Nash didn't contribute to that. The one time in his career where he actually had good defensive players behind him in the frontcourt, they came pretty close to winning a championship. Funny you would bring that up, since it helps my thesis.

Why are you acting like Kareem pushing 40 was a defensive force?

Why don't you go and find the post where I said that he was? You're pathetic.

Stop acting like you know anything about Magic Johnson or those Lakers teams when you obviously don't.

Stop reacting like a bitch when we don't toss Purple and Gold salad.

21_Blessings

01-07-2010, 05:21 PM

I'm not sure how claiming Kevin Johnson in his prime in the early nineties carving up a young Gary Payton helps yours.

Because you're dense. KJ carved up everybody.

Translation: "I won't respond to the points you make, but the points I wish you had made so I can knock them out of the park."

You haven't made any credible basketball related points. You made an inaccurate claim with zero supporting evidence.

So the Lakers didn't have Mychal Thompson, AC Green, Elden Campbell and Sam Perkins behind Magic after they won their last Showtime title in 88?

Strawman.

And the 2007 Suns came pretty close to winning a title that season, since they would've beaten Utah and Cleveland. That was the best battle they ever gave the Spurs. Which pretty much helps my argument. The Suns were 12th in defensive efficiency that year, meaning they were better than average, and Nash didn't contribute to that. The one time in his career where he actually had good defensive players behind him in the frontcourt, they came pretty close to winning a championship. Funny you would bring that up, since it helps my thesis.

They were 13th in defensive rating which is fairly average and pretty bad for a contending team. 2nd round exit is not 'close to winning championship'. The Spurs were the better team had superior defense and a much better superstar.

Stop reacting like a bitch when we don't toss Purple and Gold salad.

I'm not reacting. I'm just laughing about how little knowledge you have regarding this subject. Your entire claim is laughable to begin with and have not provided a credible basketball related point to back it up.

Mavs_man_41

01-07-2010, 05:34 PM

lmfao how is all those good defensive players backing magic "strawman?" do you even know what that is?

"haven't provided a credible basketball related point to back it up"

are you serious? he's owned your ass up and down dude! this is enjoyable :lmao

21_Blessings

01-07-2010, 05:37 PM

He hasn't provided any proof at all on his claim that Magic was a liability in the late 80's. That most definitely was a strawman as I was referring to Findog's retarded, "Magic was a liability in 8

Comes down to this. You could surround Nash with the best defenders in the league and his defense will still be completely terrible and will hurt the team badly on other end. You may get by on talent but you still have a glaring weakness.

If Magic ran into a bad matchup for him get by using his length o rhe could switch or take a bigger guy and do a very good job on him. He was part of the reason those Lakers defenses were as good as they were late in his career. With Nash, the other team has a mismatch regardless. You play zone and hope for the best.

Findog

01-07-2010, 05:38 PM

They were 13th in defensive rating which is fairly average and pretty bad for a contending team. 2nd round exit is not 'close to winning championship'. The Spurs were the better team had superior defense and a much better superstar.

Thirteen out of 30 is slightly better than average. Considering SSOL was about forcing teams to match them in terms of offensive efficiency, it was more than sufficient most of the time. The Spurs-Suns second round series decided a title, it was the stiffest test San Antonio got, and who knows what would've happened if Amare and Diaw hadn't been stupid enough to leave the bench. The Suns would've gone on to beat Utah and Cleveland. I'd say Phoenix came closer to winning a title that year than Cleveland did.

21_Blessings

01-07-2010, 05:40 PM

lmfao how is all those good defensive players backing magic "strawman?" do you even know what that is?

It had nothing to do with what I was talking about. Findog said Magic was a D liability on the Showtime championship teams. I was referring to those two

Learn how to read.

"haven't provided a credible basketball related point to back it up"

Still hasn't.

are you serious? he's owned your ass up and down dude! this is enjoyable :lmao

Look at this pathetic cheerleader.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-07-2010, 05:41 PM

They were 13th in defensive rating which is fairly average and pretty bad for a contending team. 2nd round exit is not 'close to winning championship'. The Spurs were the better team had superior defense and a much better superstar.

Funny how everytime you argue you contradict something you've said in the past:

They would have won in 2007 if Donaghy and Stern didn't fuck them.

Mavs_man_41

01-07-2010, 05:42 PM

21_Blessings

01-07-2010, 05:43 PM

Thirteen out of 30 is slightly better than average. Considering SSOL was about forcing teams to match them in terms of offensive efficiency, it was more than sufficient most of the time. it was the stiffest test San Antonio got, and who knows what would've happened if Amare and Diaw hadn't been stupid enough to leave the bench. The Suns would've gone on to beat Utah and Cleveland. I'd say Phoenix came closer to winning a title that year than Cleveland did.

13th is fucking terrible for a contender. They didn't win a title because of their defense.

The Spurs-Suns second round series decided a title

Doesn't work that way. The Suns D was bad and could have been easily exploited by a Lebron or Dwill in a playoff environment. Lebron shit all over the Pistons and they were 7th in D rating that year. Titles are not won in the 2nd round.

But I guess you're using Ghazi logic. Where if A didn't happen, B would totally happen the exact way I want it to happen!

I don't disagree with the premise that Nash needs to be masked defensively. But he's going to need alot more help on than that is usual. Likening to him Magic's situation just never made any sense.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-07-2010, 05:44 PM

13th is fucking terrible for a contender. They didn't win a title because of their defense.

They would have won in 2007 if Donaghy and Stern didn't fuck them.

Which one is it?

BUMP

01-07-2010, 05:45 PM

People actually read anything that 21 Blessings writes anymore?

Findog

01-07-2010, 05:46 PM

Magic wasn't terrible defensively but was very average during the time period Findog is referring to IMHO. He looked like he had lost a step. Great players can continue to be great offensively even after losing a step because of basketball IQ. (See Kobe Bryant)

Exactly. All I ever said was that Nash rarely if ever had good defensive bigs behind him to cover his weaknesses, and if he had, we'd hear much less about his "defense." If Magic had played in front of porous front lines, you'd hear more about how less than stellar his defense was during the time period. Also, scoring was way up in the eighties. Most teams routinely broke 100 every night. Defenses weren't nearly as sophisticated and it mainly came down to which team shot better.

21_Blessings

01-07-2010, 05:46 PM

Which one is it?

Bottom one is me trolling Spurs fan.

21_Blessings

01-07-2010, 05:50 PM

Magic wasn't terrible defensively but was very average during the time period Findog is referring to IMHO. He looked like he had lost a step. Great players can continue to be great offensively even after losing a step because of basketball IQ. (See Kobe Bryant)

Magic was a very versatile defender. He was closer to present day Lamar Odom towards the end of his career than he was Nash. Thing about Magic is what he lacked in quickness he made it for with his length on D. Nash has nothing to give you on that end other than a well timed flop.

Comparing Nash and Magic in that sense doesn't really work. Not if you actually sat down watched Magic play.

Findog

01-07-2010, 05:50 PM

Bottom one is me trolling Spurs fan.

"Pay me no heed because at any one time my sincerity cannot be determined."

Mavs_man_41

01-07-2010, 05:52 PM

Magic was a very versatile defender. He was closer to present day Lamar Odom towards the end of his career than he was Nash. Thing about Magic is what he lacked in quickness he made it for with his length on D. Nash has nothing to give you on that end other than a well timed flop.

Comparing Nash and Magic in that sense doesn't really work. Not if you actually sat down watched Magic play.

His point totally sailed right over your head. No one is saying that Nash = Magic defensively. He just was a very average defender during the timeperiod Fin referenced, not a Scottie Pippen clone.

Findog

01-07-2010, 05:53 PM

Comparing Nash and Magic in that sense doesn't really work. Not if you actually sat down watched Magic play.

They're not being compared, genius. It's more of a general comment about how the relationship between perimeter and frontcourt defense affects our perceptions of certain players. If Nash played in front of Dwight Howard or Tim Duncan in his prime, we'd hear much less about his lack of d, because it wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue. Find anybody here who posted that Magic's D, even in the time period of 88-90, was as bad as Nash. You can't, because you want to argue against an easier strawman. There are no bumpers in this bowling alley, fella.

21_Blessings

01-07-2010, 05:56 PM

His point totally sailed right over your head. No one is saying that Nash = Magic defensively. He just was a very average defender during the timeperiod Fin referenced, not a Scottie Pippen clone.

My point totally sailed right over your head. I understood what Findog was saying. But by inserting Magic into the argument is where it does not add up.

Magic was a way above average team defender and contributed to the Lakers success on that end. He wasn't without flaws but his strengths overshadowed them as he could put them to use elsewhere on the court. Nash is not an average defender. He's completely and utterly worthless on that end.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-07-2010, 05:56 PM

Bottom one is me trolling Spurs fan.

This was in response to a Pistons fan:

Hahahahahahahahaha. One team goes 15-1 the other only beat the Suns because Donaghy is a convicted felon and Stern suspended their best player on some bullshit.

This is in response to no one, but doesn't seem like trolling:

Would almost feel sorry for the Suns if their fans didn't talk so much shit to the Lakers, like beating Smush Parker and Kwame Brown was a big deal :). 2007 was their year and they were bent over by Stern. That Spurs team was extremely weak just like the 08 version and they got a free ride in the finals by facing Lebron. The Lakers exposed them in 2008.

Mavs_man_41

01-07-2010, 05:59 PM

My point totally sailed right over your head. I understood what Findog was saying. But by inserting Magic into the argument is where it does not add up.

Magic was a way above average team defender and contributed to the Lakers success on that end. He wasn't without flaws but his strengths overshadowed them as he could put them to use elsewhere on the court. Nash is not an average defender. He's completely and utterly worthless on that end.

so it took you this long to establish that:

A) nash is a poor defender

and

B) Magic was an average defender during the time period Findog referenced?

cool story bro

pad300

01-07-2010, 06:05 PM

Good points. Duncan is scoring and blocking more, but Pau is right up there, and is rebounding better. But it's sometimes about the intangibles. Ask anybody out there if the lakers, for this season only, would want to do a Pau for Duncan swap straight up. I guarantee you that you won't find a GM, Coach, Player or fan that doesn't do it, honestly.

(Edit: that's if you're not considering fitting into the triangle offense right away, but that's a different topic altogether, even though I think Duncan can pick it up quickly)

Actually, if you really want to compare rebounding, I would reccomend rebound rates (% of rebounds available (when that player is on the floor) that are gotten, rather than Rebs/Game or Rebs/36). Tim Duncan's been quite a bit better rebounder this season than Pau. Total rebound % of 19.1 vs 17.5 %, 1.6% is actually a pretty significant drop off. And Tim has more competition for boards - Gasol's teammates average a 9.49% rebound rate, while Tim's average a 9.97%...

Similarly, I'd advise looking at rates when considering Assists(Duncan wins 17.5% to 14.8), blocks (Duncan wins 4.0% to 3.5%), steals (Duncan, 0.9% to 0.6%), and TOV's (Duncan, 10.5% to 13.8%). Pau Gasol does have a better TS%, .619 to .594, but Duncan is being the main man, at a much higher usage rate for possession 27.2% vs 19.2%...

Yeah, Gasol is good, he's easily one of the top ten, and probably top 5 bigs in the NBA right now, but TD is quite a bit better right now; TD's probably the best big man so far this season.

21_Blessings

01-07-2010, 06:07 PM

They're not being compared, genius.

You were likening Steve NAsh to Magic. That is comparing them. A comparison that doesn't make sense. That's what I have a problem with.

It's more of a general comment about how the relationship between perimeter and frontcourt defense affects our perceptions of certain players. If Nash played in front of Dwight Howard or Tim Duncan in his prime, we'd hear much less about his lack of d, because it wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue.

This is what we call a backtrack. And I don't have a problem with this take other than Nash's D not being an issue. It would very much be an issue and that team would never live up to their defensive potential with Nash on the floor. Could he win a title with prime Timmy + D Rob? Probably. Would they beat the three-peat Lakers? Doubtful.

Find anybody here who posted that Magic's D, even in the time period of 88-90, was as bad as Nash.

Show me the post where I claimed this. I was pointing out that likening Nash's defensive situation to a prime Magic is doesn't work given the vastly different skillsets.

you can't, because you want to argue against an easier strawman. There are no bumpers in this bowling alley, fella.

I can't because it's a strawman.

Good to see you backtracking though.

vicphoenix13

01-07-2010, 06:08 PM

You might want to time this rinse repeat post better from here on out, it's probably not smart to give a "Nash's defense is criticized more than it should be" sermon right after Aaron Brooks drops a career high scoring night on him.

And you might want to stop with the rinse repeat posts about how terrible a player Nash is. Its funny, you never give him any credit when the opposing point guard has a bad game. Go back and look at all 36 of the Suns games this season. There can't be more than 10 games where the opposing point guard played better than Nash.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-07-2010, 06:16 PM

There can't be more than 10 games where the opposing point guard played better than Nash.

Someone who gets paid as much as Nash should be out playing the other team's PG almost every night. I really don't care about the stats Nash puts up (unlike yourself), I want the Suns to be a contender, and right now they sure as fuck aren't a contender.

21_Blessings

01-07-2010, 06:17 PM

This was in response to a Pistons fan:

This is in response to no one, but doesn't seem like trolling:

It's trolling and it worked. Just look at you.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-07-2010, 06:18 PM

It's trolling and it worked. Just look at you.

So how do we know this isn't trolling?

Mavs_man_41

01-07-2010, 06:19 PM

It's trolling and it worked. Just look at you.

what a cop out little bitch. DoK just put you in the sharpshooter and made you say uncle and tap out

21_Blessings

01-07-2010, 06:20 PM

So how do we know this isn't trolling?

I'll tell when you list every one of your alt accounts in this thread and their post count.

21_Blessings

01-07-2010, 06:21 PM

what a cop out little bitch. DoK just put you in the sharpshooter and made you say uncle and tap out

What was that? I can't hear you over those 2006 tears of failure.

Mavs_man_41

01-07-2010, 06:22 PM

What was that? I can't hear you over those 2006 tears of failure.

lol tacker smack :yield

Findog

01-07-2010, 06:23 PM

What was that? I can't hear you over those 2006 tears of failure.

Empty trophycase smack! What a burn! :lol

C'mon, post some pictures of Wade with the trophy and Dirk kicking an exercise bike. That'll show us!

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-07-2010, 06:23 PM

What was that? I can't hear you over those 2006 tears of failure.

What does the 2006 finals have to do with this?

21_Blessings

01-07-2010, 06:24 PM

lol tacker smack :yield

Keep on :cheer

How does it feel to be Findog's bottom?

Mavs_man_41

01-07-2010, 06:25 PM

Keep on :cheer

How does it feel to be Findog's bottom?

fin's or dok's, which one is it again? or maybe it's just a good old all around GANGBANG on your poor ass :wow

21_Blessings

01-07-2010, 06:25 PM

What does the 2006 finals have to do with this?

Just an example of a weak team getting bitch slapped and never recovering.

Greg Oden

01-07-2010, 06:26 PM

Keep on :cheer

How does it feel to be Findog's bottom?

At least what's going on between mavs_man and findog is consensual. What's happening between yourself and Findog is looked down upon by the law.

Findog

01-07-2010, 06:35 PM

Just an example of a weak team getting bitch slapped and never recovering.

Lose an argument, resort to title smack. Are we supposed to have our feelings hurt by you?

21_Blessings

01-07-2010, 06:40 PM

Lose an argument, resort to title smack. Are we supposed to have our feelings hurt by you?

Never lost the argument.

You made a retarded claim about Magic. It was shot down by established statistics and facts. Then you backtracked and claimed you were just making a general comment and completely changed your point to not include Magic at all. That's fine with me.

Now we have moved on back to the status quo.

If you want to discuss more about your idiotic claim that Magic was a liability in the 80s when he was winning rings and MVPs by comparing his situation to Steve Nash's, we can.

JamStone

01-07-2010, 06:44 PM

It's like I walked into a pillow fight by sorority girls in lingerie only to be disappointed by the fact that it's the fat and ugly sorority...

21_Blessings

01-07-2010, 06:46 PM

or dok's, which one is it again? or maybe it's just a good old all around GANGBANG on your poor ass :wow

Look at you inquiring. Seems here you would enjoy the concept of being dok's bottom.

Mavs_man_41

01-07-2010, 06:46 PM

It's like I walked into a pillow fight by sorority girls in lingerie only to be disappointed by the fact that it's the fat and ugly sorority...

they have a fraternity for that too, you know. how old are you again, are you in college?

Mavs_man_41

01-07-2010, 06:47 PM

Look at you inquiring. Seems here you would enjoy the concept of being dok's bottom.

shut up and bend over while we take turns fisting your ass

vicphoenix13

01-07-2010, 08:03 PM

Someone who gets paid as much as Nash should be out playing the other team's PG almost every night. I really don't care about the stats Nash puts up (unlike yourself), I want the Suns to be a contender, and right now they sure as fuck aren't a contender.

Its hilarious that you blame Nash for the Suns failure to be a contender. There wouldn't be any reason to watch the Suns the last six years if Nash didn't sign with them in 2004. While you continue to only rip Nash for his poor defense, you never bring up the fact that the Suns are poor defensively all around. For example, how does Carl Landry score 31 points on 14-23 shooting last night? Or is that Nash's fault as well?

sonic21

01-07-2010, 08:25 PM

Its hilarious that you blame Nash for the Suns failure to be a contender. There wouldn't be any reason to watch the Suns the last six years if Nash didn't sign with them in 2004. While you continue to only rip Nash for his poor defense, you never bring up the fact that the Suns are poor defensively all around. For example, how does Carl Landry score 31 points on 14-23 shooting last night? Or is that Nash's fault as well?

son, speaking like a true fan :tu

so if your team suck, you don't follow them?

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-07-2010, 09:39 PM

There wouldn't be any reason to watch the Suns the last six years if Nash didn't sign with them in 2004.

Please tell me this means you won't care about the Suns in a few years when Nash is gone! Pretty please!

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-07-2010, 09:42 PM

Its hilarious that you blame Nash for the Suns failure to be a contender.

Show me where I said that. Nash isn't the reason the Suns are no longer a contender, but the culture Nash brings as the leader has EVERYTHING to do with why they aren't a good defensive team.

da_suns_fan

01-07-2010, 10:04 PM

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-07-2010, 10:33 PM

Whatever Nash's deficiencies are, theyre small in comparison to Stoudemire's. And where as Nash just doesnt have the foot speed, Amare's stem from laziness and a lack of discipline.

Youre hating the wrong guy, IMO, DoK.

The only reason I don't talk about Amare is we all agree on his defense. Talking about how bad his defense is is like talking about how blue the sky is, there's really nothing to talk about, it's just something we've acknowledged, it's an opinion that is almost fact because of how consensus it is.

Nash is never going to be a 1st all NBA defender, or 2nd NBA defender for that matter. My problem is the amount of roaming he does going for steals and trying to draw charges. He makes so many gambles on D that sometimes force a turnover but most of the time result in an easy shot or a teammate left out of position. It's not a popular opinion, but it's my opinion that if he merely guarded his man to the best of his ability and stopped making "act now, think later" gambles on D, his teammates would be able to focus more on their man and worry less about helping on the guy Nash is supposed to be guarding. I've seen Nash play very disciplined defense when he didn't shut his guy down but made his man work for everything, and when he's doing that, it seems like Richardson and Amare look a lot more comfortable and do less dumb things on D.

Findog

01-07-2010, 11:03 PM

It's weird to constantly bag on Nash for his limitations on D, and never deign to criticize Amare, whose faults are laziness and lack of discipline, like DSF says. Nash's sins on D, such as gambling for steals and hawking the passing lanes, pale in comparison to Amare just not giving a shit.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-07-2010, 11:14 PM

Nash's sins on D, such as gambling for steals and hawking the passing lanes, pale in comparison to Amare just not giving a shit.

Doesn't mean it's OK. The difference is Nash is supposed to a be a veteran, high Bball IQ leader who knows better than taking those types of gambles on defense. When the player who all the players look up to as the leader, captain, and player they should model themselves after does things like that, what impact is it going to have on the team?

Findog

01-07-2010, 11:22 PM

Doesn't mean it's OK. The difference is Nash is supposed to a be a veteran, high Bball IQ leader who knows better than taking those types of gambles on defense. When the player who all the players look up to as the leader, captain, and player they should model themselves after does things like that, what impact is it going to have on the team?

So you're giving Amare a pass because he's dumb? Amare has been in the league long enough to know what his weaknesses are and where he needs to improve. He is the classic "DOESNT GET IT" kind of guy. I'm so glad he's not a Mav, because he would be infuriating to watch with his kind of potential. Nash's sins, on the other hand, are pretty minor when you consider what he gives your team.

pauls931

01-07-2010, 11:23 PM

Ice009

01-08-2010, 12:11 AM

da_suns_fan

01-08-2010, 12:15 AM

The only reason I don't talk about Amare is we all agree on his defense. Talking about how bad his defense is is like talking about how blue the sky is, there's really nothing to talk about, it's just something we've acknowledged, it's an opinion that is almost fact because of how consensus it is.

Nash is never going to be a 1st all NBA defender, or 2nd NBA defender for that matter. My problem is the amount of roaming he does going for steals and trying to draw charges. He makes so many gambles on D that sometimes force a turnover but most of the time result in an easy shot or a teammate left out of position. It's not a popular opinion, but it's my opinion that if he merely guarded his man to the best of his ability and stopped making "act now, think later" gambles on D, his teammates would be able to focus more on their man and worry less about helping on the guy Nash is supposed to be guarding. I've seen Nash play very disciplined defense when he didn't shut his guy down but made his man work for everything, and when he's doing that, it seems like Richardson and Amare look a lot more comfortable and do less dumb things on D.

Even if he gambles too much on D, at least hes TRYING. Maybe you disagree with his tactics, but Amare is all talk and no bite. Im so sick of him not boxing out, not covering his man cuz he's barking at the ref for not calling a foul on the other end etc.

Im to the point where Im about to say "good riddance" if he leaves. He's not a max contract player and I dont want to have to watch him for the next 5 years.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-08-2010, 12:22 AM

So you're giving Amare a pass because he's dumb? Amare has been in the league long enough to know what his weaknesses are and where he needs to improve. He is the classic "DOESNT GET IT" kind of guy. I'm so glad he's not a Mav, because he would be infuriating to watch with his kind of potential. Nash's sins, on the other hand, are pretty minor when you consider what he gives your team.

Even if he gambles too much on D, at least hes TRYING. Maybe you disagree with his tactics, but Amare is all talk and no bite. Im so sick of him not boxing out, not covering his man cuz he's barking at the ref for not calling a foul on the other end etc.

Im to the point where Im about to say "good riddance" if he leaves. He's not a max contract player and I dont want to have to watch him for the next 5 years.

Why does critizing Nash's D automatically mean I'm excusing Amare? Is there no possibility I could be pissed at both of them?

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-08-2010, 12:26 AM

Nash's sins, on the other hand, are pretty minor when you consider what he gives your team.

He gave you guys a trip to the finals by leaving and giving your team the ability to get better defensively. It's pretty ironic whenever you tell me to appreciate Nash when the best thing Nash ever did for Dallas was leave.

Findog

01-08-2010, 12:34 AM

Why does critizing Nash's D automatically mean I'm excusing Amare? Is there no possibility I could be pissed at both of them?

Because you probably criticize Nash 100 X more than you do Amare.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-08-2010, 12:55 AM

Because you probably criticize Nash 100 X more than you do Amare.

Notice how every single Suns fan on this site (or the few that are left anyway) other than me talks about how bad Amare's defense is and rip him for it, yet all of them get extremely defensive when Nash's defense gets brought up? We all know Amare sucks at defense, there's no point in repeating something everyone agrees on. I talk about Nash's defense because people seem incapable of realizing no team with Steve Nash will ever be a good defensive team. If every other Suns fan thought Nash's D was as big a problem as I thought, I wouldn't talk about it. Idk if you remember when I first came to ST around a year ago but I bitch and moaned constantly about Amare's D when people made excuses for him and said he's only bad at D because of Shaq. Since then, Shaq got traded and the AZ media needed a new scapegoat to pin the Suns' bad defense on giving Nash a skirt to hide behind. That scapegoat happened to be Amare, there's no need for me to talk about his bad D when everyone seems to think the Suns would be a defensive powerhouse with anyone other than Amare.

Why is it your opinion of Nash has changed so much since these quotes from a few years ago:

Along with an inability to play on both ends of the floor. And you can question their collective character all you want, and you would be profoundly wrong except in the case of poise, but the fact of the matter is that the Mavericks are a better team now than they were with Nash

It was a tradeoff. It goes to show you how overrated Nash is that we lost him, replaced him with an interior defender that isn't exactly a 20-10 guy and got better, and went much further than we ever did with him. If I'm playing the Spurs in May, I'd rather have Erick Dampier and Jason Terry than Steve Nash and Shawn Bradley.

vicphoenix13

01-08-2010, 06:03 AM

Notice how every single Suns fan on this site (or the few that are left anyway) other than me talks about how bad Amare's defense is and rip him for it, yet all of them get extremely defensive when Nash's defense gets brought up? We all know Amare sucks at defense, there's no point in repeating something everyone agrees on. I talk about Nash's defense because people seem incapable of realizing no team with Steve Nash will ever be a good defensive team. If every other Suns fan thought Nash's D was as big a problem as I thought, I wouldn't talk about it. Idk if you remember when I first came to ST around a year ago but I bitch and moaned constantly about Amare's D when people made excuses for him and said he's only bad at D because of Shaq. Since then, Shaq got traded and the AZ media needed a new scapegoat to pin the Suns' bad defense on giving Nash a skirt to hide behind. That scapegoat happened to be Amare, there's no need for me to talk about his bad D when everyone seems to think the Suns would be a defensive powerhouse with anyone other than Amare.

Why is it your opinion of Nash has changed so much since these quotes from a few years ago:

Sorry, but Nash has received a ton of criticism for poor defense on this site. And when has Nash ever tried to hid the fact that he isn't good defensively? He has often mentioned that he isn't known for defense. I don't think you understand that defense isn't just effort. Its a team skill which requires quickness, speed and anticipation by the five players on the floor. While you pile on Nash, it has been very clear the last six seasons that the Suns never had enough good team defenders. One defensive area where you can't blame Nash is rebounding. Year after year the Suns are brutal at getting rebounds which means the frontline isn't good enough.

ezau

01-08-2010, 06:19 AM

Alright, that 2007 Spurs team would beat the 2009 Lakers. If you're going to call that team weak 21_Blessings then you better not look back at your run to the 2009 Championship playing teams that were injured and beat up. That 2007 Suns team might have beaten the 2009 Lakers too. That Suns team was very good.

Agree on this. If there should be any championship team that should have an asterisk, it should be the 2009 Lakers. I really think that the 2007 Suns team had what it takes to take down the Spurs during that year.

fevertrees

01-08-2010, 09:08 AM

sons my biggest problem with this stupid ass list is no downtown devin brown ... The disrespect he gets is disgusting.

motherfucking cosigned

Findog

01-08-2010, 09:53 AM

Why is it your opinion of Nash has changed so much since these quotes from a few years ago

I don't see an contradiction there. He's a great player. He didn't deserve his MVP awards, the Mavs got better on defense, but it's not as if you can't win a title with Nash as your PG. You need a strong defensive big man behind him, and the Mavs didn't have the salary slot to get both Dampier and resign Nash. It was one or the other. I would've preferred Dampier at a much cheaper price so we could've had both. Or Nash if the Suns hadn't given him the contract that he did.

pauls931

01-08-2010, 09:57 AM

He gave you guys a trip to the finals by leaving and giving your team the ability to get better defensively. It's pretty ironic whenever you tell me to appreciate Nash when the best thing Nash ever did for Dallas was leave.

Suns probably would have had a trip to the finals if Amare and Diaw stayed on the bench and the suns coaching staff didn't have their heads up their asses being aware of the situation and do their job.

JamStone

01-08-2010, 10:48 AM

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-08-2010, 11:12 AM

Sorry, but Nash has received a ton of criticism for poor defense on this site. And when has Nash ever tried to hid the fact that he isn't good defensively? He has often mentioned that he isn't known for defense. I don't think you understand that defense isn't just effort. Its a team skill which requires quickness, speed and anticipation by the five players on the floor. While you pile on Nash, it has been very clear the last six seasons that the Suns never had enough good team defenders. One defensive area where you can't blame Nash is rebounding. Year after year the Suns are brutal at getting rebounds which means the frontline isn't good enough.

You're arguing against things I've never said. When you actually want to create a counterpoint for something I said, let me know.

PS - Which Suns fan on this site, other than me, has ever criticized Nash's defense?

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-08-2010, 11:13 AM

it's not as if you can't win a title with Nash as your PG. You need a strong defensive big man behind him

It's a catch 22. If you have a strong defensive big man behind Nash clogging the paint, Nash's defense isn't as big a problem, but his offense suddenly gets compromised a ton because having a real center on the floor completely kills his production.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-08-2010, 11:16 AM

I don't see how criticizing Nash's defense has anything to do with the perceived lack of criticism of Amare's laziness and stupidity.

It doesn't. Since Nash is white and does save the planet commercials (even though he doesn't give a cent of his money to charity) while Amare is black and doesn't make a huge effort to give off a good image, you need to say at least ten negative things about Amare before you can say one negative thing about Nash.

Findog

01-08-2010, 11:16 AM

I don't see how criticizing Nash's defense has anything to do with the perceived lack of criticism of Amare's laziness and stupidity.

Nash gets more bashing because he's been so highly regarded, has two MVPs, consistently mentioned among the best point guards in the league since re-joining the Suns, gets all-NBA honors. His defense gets mentioned because he's constantly honored and praised as a player.

With Amare, pretty much everyone agrees he's a lazy, no defense playing, waste of talent. No one puts him above Duncan. No reasonable person would put him above KG (prior to the last few seasons with KG's decline) or Dirk. It's pretty much consensus that he's a notch below. He's not in the middle of League MVP discussions.

There's a reason why Nash gets bashed more so than Amare, by Suns fans or whoever. It's because there have been plenty of people, fans, analysts that will praise Nash while simply ignoring or neglecting his deficiencies on defense. While Amare generally won't get praise without mention of his laziness or stupidity.

Here's the thing though: Nash's problems are physical limitations. And say whatever you want about his team defense...he's trying to help his team. It may not be the best way to spend his time on that end of the floor, but he's trying. With Amare, he deserves to be criticized repeatedly because the only thing holding him back is his laziness and bb IQ. I think you can criticize lack of effort, with Nash the only thing you can criticize is his physical limitations and how he plays teams defense.

Findog

01-08-2010, 11:18 AM

It's a catch 22. If you have a strong defensive big man behind Nash clogging the paint, Nash's defense isn't as big a problem, but his offense suddenly gets compromised a ton because having a real center on the floor completely kills his production.

His offense gets compromised if you have 350 lb Shaq demanding the ball. I don't see how that would be the case if you had Marcus Camby in his prime or somebody like that who could run the floor and throw a good outlet pass.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-08-2010, 11:18 AM

I live in Canada and have never even been to Phoenix. I wouldn't be a Suns fan if not for Steve Nash, and won't be once Nash retires.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-08-2010, 11:20 AM

Here's the thing though: Nash's problems are physical limitations. And say whatever you want about his team defense...he's trying to help his team.

If he's trying to help his team by leaving his man wide open while running around trying to get credit for a turnover, then Allen Iverson was helping his team whenever he tried to go for a steal and in the process left his man wide open. The only difference is one is a white guy who loves trees and one is a black guy who hates practice.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-08-2010, 11:22 AM

Nash's problems are physical limitations.

And Amare's problems are mental limitations. There's nothing Amare can do to become smarter. You can't fault someone for naturally being an idiot.

EDIT: Last thing I say about Amare in this thread. Amare isn't in the discussion as a top 10 player, using the defensive ability of a non top 10 player to excuse the bad defense of a top 10 player makes no sense and is stupid. This argument has nothing to do with Amare, it has everything to do with Nash. If you want to talk about Amare's defense, feel free to create a thread about how good you seem to think the Suns defense will be when Amare is gone. I'm not arguing about Amare and never was. Quit trying to stear the argument in a completely different direction because you know it's impossible to stay on topic when you're trying to create a legitimate argument that Nash tries his hardest on defense.

fevertrees

01-08-2010, 12:38 PM

namlook

01-08-2010, 02:21 PM

That 2007 Suns team might have beaten the 2009 Lakers too.

No chance. The Suns didn't have the size to guard the Lakers' huge front line.

namlook

01-08-2010, 02:23 PM

I don't understand how a role player like Kobe can be considering a top 5 player in the league. It's easy to make scoring averages like he does when you throw up 25 shots a game and get to the line at least 8 times.

And I don't understand why you think you know anything about of the game of basketball.

This might be the winner for most ignorant post of the year.

Muser

01-08-2010, 02:25 PM

He can have his chucker nights, but arguing that Kobe isn't a top 5 player in the league is retarded.

Findog

01-08-2010, 02:46 PM

If he's trying to help his team by leaving his man wide open while running around trying to get credit for a turnover, then Allen Iverson was helping his team whenever he tried to go for a steal and in the process left his man wide open. The only difference is one is a white guy who loves trees and one is a black guy who hates practice.

If Nash is leaving his man open, it's to force a turnover that gets his team the ball back, not get something to fill up the box score. You should know by now he doesn't care about stats. And the difference between Iverson and Nash is that in their primes, one could run an offense and the other couldn't.

Findog

01-08-2010, 02:50 PM

And Amare's problems are mental limitations. There's nothing Amare can do to become smarter. You can't fault someone for naturally being an idiot.

No, Amare's problems are laziness. He doesn't have the bball IQ of Nash, Kobe or Duncan, but he's not some drooling idiot that bangs his head against the wall repeatedly. I've heard him say all the right things in interviews countless times, which means he's sentient enough to understand the difference between selfish play and team-oriented play.

Amare isn't in the discussion as a top 10 player, using the defensive ability of a non top 10 player to excuse the bad defense of a top 10 player makes no sense and is stupid. This argument has nothing to do with Amare, it has everything to do with Nash. If you want to talk about Amare's defense, feel free to create a thread about how good you seem to think the Suns defense will be when Amare is gone. I'm not arguing about Amare and never was. Quit trying to stear the argument in a completely different direction because you know it's impossible to stay on topic when you're trying to create a legitimate argument that Nash tries his hardest on defense.]

If I'm a Suns fan, I appreciate that Nash leaves everything out on the court. I might get frustrated at how he gambles on defense, but I don't question his commitment or his effort. Amare, on the other hand, would drive me crazy with his lackadaisical effort towards defense. Lack of ability is one thing, lack of effort is another. You say Amare is too dumb to learn how to play the "right way" and I don't think that's the case at all.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-08-2010, 03:01 PM

If Nash is leaving his man open, it's to force a turnover that gets his team the ball back, not get something to fill up the box score. You should know by now he doesn't care about stats. And the difference between Iverson and Nash is that in their primes, one could run an offense and the other couldn't.

So you're actually trying to justify a player leaving someone open, wow. Awesome. If A.I. is leaving his man open to try and get a steal or poke a ball loose, is that also not trying to force a turnover, which evidently justifies leaving a player open?

And yes, he cares plenty about stats. Assists are as much of a stat as points are. If he didn't care about assists he wouldn't run around pounding the air out of the ball until an assist opportunity presented itself.

Neither Iverson nor Nash can "run an offense". The only offense those two can effectively run is where the ball is in their hands nearly all the time and nearly every FG scored is a FG they score or get an assist off of. As far running a tradition half court offense that requires movement with and without the ball from all players while no player holds onto the ball for too long, Nash would suck at that just as much as Iverson would.

Findog

01-08-2010, 03:14 PM

So you're actually trying to justify a player leaving someone open, wow. Awesome. If A.I. is leaving his man open to try and get a steal or poke a ball loose, is that also not trying to force a turnover, which evidently justifies leaving a player open?

Where did I ever say that Iverson was trying to get a steal for a steal's sake instead of trying to help his team? I don't really care for Iverson's game, but I'd never accuse him of not wanting to win or not kill himself for his teams. As for roaming, Kobe does it all the time...if his player isn't an offensive threat, and sometimes even if he is, he'll roam the passing lanes playing free safety and then try to scramble back to his man when the ball rotates. It's not a bad strategy 100% of the time.

And yes, he cares plenty about stats. Assists are as much of a stat as points are. If he didn't care about assists he wouldn't run around pounding the air out of the ball until an assist opportunity presented itself.

Yeah, he's just trying to get assists to pad his totals. It's not about scoring baskets for his team. The Suns have been first in offensive efficiency almost the entire time he's been in Phoenix.

Neither Iverson nor Nash can "run an offense". The only offense those two can effectively run is where the ball is in their hands nearly all the time and nearly every FG scored is a FG they score or get an assist off of.

Iverson played 1 on 5 most of his career because he wanted to win on his terms and he believed that was the best way he could help his teams win. And I'm pretty sure just about every guy who has ever played with him would say Nash was definitely a Point Guard in every sense of the word. You're usually a pretty good poster, but your Nash opinions are weak takes in my opinion. No offense or anything personal intended.

As far running a tradition half court offense that requires movement with and without the ball from all players while no player holds onto the ball for too long, Nash would suck at that just as much as Iverson would.

No, he'd just be a borderline All Star like he was in Dallas. The Mavs played up tempo but there were also times when they'd walk it up and have to run traditional half court sets.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-08-2010, 03:23 PM

No, Amare's problems are laziness. He doesn't have the bball IQ of Nash, Kobe or Duncan, but he's not some drooling idiot that bangs his head against the wall repeatedly. I've heard him say all the right things in interviews countless times, which means he's sentient enough to understand the difference between selfish play and team-oriented play.

Nash might not have the physical talent of Russell Westbrook or D Rose but he's not some paraplegic physically handicapped gimp. I've seen Nash play disciplined, physically demanding defense countless times, which means he's physically good enough to play semi-average defense.

If I'm a Suns fan, I appreciate that Nash leaves everything out on the court.

Except when he has a coach who he doesn't like and wants to get fired.

I might get frustrated at how he gambles on defense

But it's really not a big deal when those gambles lead to career scoring nights for the other team's point guard. It "might get frustrating" when avoidable mistakes and gambles cost the team games.

but I don't question his commitment or his effort.

I don't question his commitment or effort to drawing charges and trying to force turnovers either.

You say Amare is too dumb to learn how to play the "right way" and I don't think that's the case at all.

The right way is staying on your man and doing what you can to limit the amount of easy opportunities he has. Regardless of whether or not Amare plays "the right way" on defense, Nash doesn't, which is what I have a problem with. If you want to talk about Amare not playing the right way, make a thread about it. You won't find too many people who disagree.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-08-2010, 03:43 PM

Where did I ever say that Iverson was trying to get a steal for a steal's sake instead of trying to help his team? I don't really care for Iverson's game, but I'd never accuse him of not wanting to win or not kill himself for his teams. As for roaming, Kobe does it all the time...if his player isn't an offensive threat, and sometimes even if he is, he'll roam the passing lanes playing free safety and then try to scramble back to his man when the ball rotates. It's not a bad strategy 100% of the time.

Nash's roaming and Kobe's roaming are completely different. When Kobe roams he's also communicating with his teammates and doing it because they guy he's guarding isn't a huge threat. Nash's teammates have no idea whether he'll be roaming on a possession or guarding someone. He might play really committed defense against a non offensive threat, and he might decide to leave Chris Paul a wide open driving lane.

Yeah, he's just trying to get assists to pad his totals. It's not about scoring baskets for his team. The Suns have been first in offensive efficiency almost the entire time he's been in Phoenix.

Their first in offensive efficiency has nothing to do with the half court plays I'm referring to with horrible movement from the team when Nash dribbles the air out of the ball. A play usually resulting in Nash taking a contested fadeaway or Amare trying to create a shot for himself (not pretty) as the shot clock is close to running out. This is the play you could count on seeing in the last 3 minutes of a Spurs Suns playoff game when the Suns snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Iverson played 1 on 5 most of his career because he wanted to win on his terms and he believed that was the best way he could help his teams win.

That sure worked out well for him.

And I'm pretty sure just about every guy who has ever played with him would say Nash was definitely a Point Guard in every sense of the word.

Except for Shaq, Joe Johnson and Quentin Richardson.

You're usually a pretty good poster, but your Nash opinions are weak takes in my opinion. No offense or anything personal intended.

IMO your Nash takes are ill-informed, and IMO you're forgetting how flawed the Mavs were when they had Nash.

No, he'd just be a borderline All Star like he was in Dallas. The Mavs played up tempo but there were also times when they'd walk it up and have to run traditional half court sets.

Be real. What kind of performance could you expect from the Don Nelson Mavs when they were in a grind it out half court game where the team that executes the best half court sets wins? Was Nash a borderline all star because he ran traditional half court sets in Dallas well, or because he made Dallas a good fast break team?

vicphoenix13

01-08-2010, 05:53 PM

He gave you guys a trip to the finals by leaving and giving your team the ability to get better defensively. It's pretty ironic whenever you tell me to appreciate Nash when the best thing Nash ever did for Dallas was leave.

You forgot to mention what Nash did to the Mavs in the 2005 playoffs. The Mavs didn't instantly get better by letting Nash go or they would have beat the Suns that year. The next season, the Mavs lucked out to beat a Suns team without Amare. Sure the Mavs improved defensively, but don't claim getting rid of Nash was the main reason. Nash was on a team with soft defenders like Shawn Bradley and Antoine Walker. No team can be successful defensively if Shawn Bradley is your starting center.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

01-08-2010, 07:20 PM

You forgot to mention what Nash did to the Mavs in the 2005 playoffs. The Mavs didn't instantly get better by letting Nash go or they would have beat the Suns that year.

2003-2004 Mavs: 52 wins, lost in 1st round
2004-2005 Mavs: 58 wins, lost in 2nd round
The fact they lost to Nash is irrelevant. They were a better team the year after Nash left than they were the last year they had Nash. They won more regular season games and advanced further in the playoffs, if that's not better then idk what the fuck is.

The next season, the Mavs lucked out to beat a Suns team without Amare.

They also beat the Spurs. Something they weren't able to do when Nash was on their team.

Sure the Mavs improved defensively, but don't claim getting rid of Nash was the main reason.

It was one of the many things that needed to happen in order for Dallas to get good defensively. Just like this current Phoenix team, the act of getting rid of Nash by itself won't magically transform the Suns into a good defensive team, but it's one of many things that will need to happen for the Suns to become a good defensive team.

Nash was on a team with soft defenders like Shawn Bradley and Antoine Walker. No team can be successful defensively if Shawn Bradley is your starting center.

The last season Nash was on Dallas, Shawn Bradley played 11 minutes a game and started 5 games. But you're right, I'm sure Shawn Bradley, the starting center who only started 5 games and 9th leading minute getter on the 2003-2004 Mavericks, is the reason they sucked defensively.