Hindsight: Which Swingman You Want?

[timvp]

Early in the offseason, the Spurs were able to acquire Richard Jefferson from the Milwaukee Bucks in what basically amounted to a salary dump for the Bucks. At the time, most Spurs fans were excited about the trade. However, a couple months into the season, Jefferson is playing decently well or is a bust -- depending on which Spurs fan you ask.

Using 20/20 hindsight, which of the talented swingmen below do you think the Spurs should have gone after?

Stephen Jackson
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3210.jpg

PROS:

-Fan favorite former Spur who has proven championship mettle.

-Has three-point range and isn't afraid to let it fly.

-Very underrated passer and playmaker.

-Named the Spurs as a team he wanted to play for when he demanded a trade.

CONS:

-Bad contract. Is owed $27.8M through the 2012-13 season.

-He's a low percentage shooter who uses up a lot of possessions.

-Turns the ball over a ton.

-May not want to revert back to a secondary role.

-Numerous offcourt issues.

Vince Carter
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3248.jpg

PROS:

-Easily the most talented player on this list.

-Still an elite athlete.

-Can score, pass, shoot and defend when he's motivated.

-Is capable of carrying the offense single-handedly.

CONS:

-Shooting just 39.2% from the floor and 30.9% on threes this season.

-Dominates the ball offensively; he's not a role player -- just ask his teammates (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144430).

-Questionable heart and work ethic. Injury prone, though he doesn't miss many games.

-The trade for Carter would have included both George Hill and Roger Mason, Jr.

Shawn Marion
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3332.jpg

PROS:

-One of the best rebounding small forwards in league history.

-Can still get out and run on the break -- and finish.

-Doesn't need plays called for him to have a huge impact.

-Versatile defender who has defended all five positions.

CONS:

-His three-point shooting ability has vanished. He has no threes on the season.

-His numbers indicate that he's in a steep decline. A shadow of his former self.

-Is due $40 million over the next five years.

-Hasn't enjoyed being a role player in the past.

-Can be shut down by good defensive teams -- especially in the playoffs.

Trevor Ariza
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3860.jpg

PROS:

-Was outstanding with the championship Lakers team last season -- especially in the playoffs.

-Great length makes him a quality defender on the ball and in terms of help defense.

-At 24, by far the youngest player on this list.

-Rebounds, swipes steals and has range on his jumper.

CONS:

-Is having a horrible year with the Rockets. 38% from the field, 30% on threes.

-Not always a smart player, especially when it comes to shot selection.

-Used to have a lazy and egotistical rep earlier in his career.

-Would have required the MLE to sign, which would have meant no Antonio McDyess.

Ron Artest
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3339.jpg

PROS:

-One of the best perimeter defenders of this generation.

-Has transformed into a good three-point shooter.

-Rebounds the ball and is a better than expected passer.

-Doesn't seem to mind having a smaller role offensively

CONS:

-Combustible both oncourt and offcourt. Not exactly the most stable player in the NBA.

-Looks like he has lost some of his athleticism; relies on his jumper more now.

-Takes questionable shots at times -- especially late in games.

-Like Ariza, the Spurs would have used the MLE to sign him.

Richard Jefferson
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3523.jpg

PROS:

-Still an elite athlete who can run and jump with the best of 'em.

-Can shoot the three and is the most efficient shooter on this list.

-Doesn't rock the boat. Will gladly play a supporting role.

-By all accounts a good teammate who is willing to learn.

CONS:

-Doesn't rebound the ball much anymore.

-Has lost lateral quickness, which makes him an average defender.

-Has a tendency to disappear if not kept involved.

-Owed a ton of money ($29.2M) this year and next.

-Years on bad teams brought upon sloppy habits.







If you were in charge of the Spurs this summer, which would you have taken? I have a pretty good idea on my answer but I want to see what others think first.

[Spursmania]

I'm sticking with RJ.

[TDMVPDPOY]

jax is turning around the bobcats

fck all u haters

[timvp]

I added in Shawn Marion. Let me know if I forgot anyone else who fits into the discussion.

[GabeIsGone]

Ariza, comparable to artest defensively, is the youngest and can still improve, no baggage like the rest, decent offensively (people dont realize he went from being like the #5 option on the lakers to #1 on the rockets, of course hes gonna struggle), and hes used to being a role player.

[Mel_13]

If you were in charge of the Spurs this summer, which would you have taken? I have a pretty good idea on my answer but I want to see what others think first.

Jackson will win this one in a landslide and I voted for him, but it's not really a fair question.

On June 24th, VC and RJ were the only two available and the Spurs reportedly tried for VC first. GS wouldn't have traded Jackson for expirings on June 24th and conventional wisdom on that date was that Artest and Ariza would stay with their former teams unless offered more than the MLE by another team.

If only Jackson had made his trade demand in June....

[doobs]

Stephen Jackson, then RJ.

Vince Carter would have been a disaster. Too much to give up for a ball-hog slacker.

I'd rather trade for RJ and sign McDyess than sign Artest or Ariza.

RJ/McDyess > (Artest or Ariza)/Oberto/KT

[timaios]

Trevor Ariza.

He's having a bad season with the Rockets because he thinks he needs to be the star on that team. With the Spurs he would be a top role player.
Great defender, great motivation against the Lakers, great 3pts shooter when he plays like a role player.

The Spurs would be a much better defense team with him.

[polandprzem]

I added in Shawn Marion. Let me know if I forgot anyone else who fits into the discussion.

Good that you added him because I would pick him or Artest and as Ron can cause some troubles Marion would be the perfect pick.
At once we would be matched up better with Mavs and we could go small ball more often, no being worried about rebs disadventage.

I'm good with RJ though - I think he can pick it (game) up and produce better as the season will go forward - February and March will tell us.

[noob cake]

I'll take a cheap 24 year old Ariza.

[Bukefal]

Im glad with RJ, it's just too bad it takes him so long to find his role and productivity in this team. But he is still great and I support him.

Although I wouldnt have minded seeing Vince Carter with us, but if it meant losing Hill, hmm not really.

[AnthonyM]

For me, it'd either be SJax or RJ...

Between the two, I'd go with SJax.

Jackson has played with the Big 3 and knows the Spurs system, and he brings the toughness that the Spurs need. While he has had offcourt issues, he wasn't a problem in his first stint in SA, and he could probably stay out of trouble in this city again.

As far as his terrible contract, Spurs could always explore trade options after the 2011-12 season with his expiring.

I do think he'd be a bit less turnover prone with the Spurs than he is on the Bobcats now though, since his role in the Spurs system would be a different one than he plays in Charlotte (meaning he won't be counted on to handle the ball and the offensive load with the Spurs).

[doobs]

RJ is good, guys. I like the way he's starting to fit in. The only player who might have been a better option is Stephen Jackson, and that's assuming we could have traded for him with the same package.

We should sign Bowen out of retirement to back up RJ. Then package Fin in a trade for a decent 7 footer. It won't happen, but it's what I'd like to see.

[jcrod]

Yeah, if we're talking giving up almost same pieces, then SJ all the way. He knows what he was coming to and wanted to come back. The others required using the MLE and giving up more.

[blkroadrunners]

Caron Butler would have been reallly nice especially w/ his playmaking abilities, defense, and lower contract, but RJ's not too bad.

[admiralsnackbar]

If contracts aren't an issue (judging from all players included on the list besides Artest and maybe Ariza), I like Maggette. Guy's been on fahyah this season.

[MaNu4Tres]

Stephen Jackson then RJ.

[AnthonyM]

Oh, and using the MLE for a player like Ariza or Artest would not have been optimal since getting a quality big man this past offseason was arguably as important as finding a defensive/quality swingman.

So, for me, those two (or any player commanding the MLE) were easily ruled out, even though I did like the idea of Ariza on the Spurs.

[Mel_13]

Stephen Jackson then RJ.

....

[Streakyshooter08]

That question is pretty tough. Since the Spurs "problem" this year is defense I think Ariza or Artest would have really helped in that department. But if using the MLE on one of them means no McDyess (I still believe he will improve as the season moves on) I doubt I would do it.

I never really liked Carter.

Jax is another player I really like so of course I would love to have him on the team.

Right now I am ready to roll the dice with the combo of Jefferson and McDyess. Both are not playing their best basketball and the Spurs are still 3rd in the west with 0,5 games behind the second. If the team can build chemistry and everybody is playing like they are capable of, I really like the chances to go for No. 5. Health probably is the biggest concern here. So I stick with RJ.

[Brazil]

RJ, Ariza would have been my preference because he is young hard defender and a top role player who would fit very nicely in the spurs roster but we needed the mle for a big so I stick with RJ.

[nkdlunch]

I'll take Ariza. He proved he can be the X factor in a playoff series. Then again I wanted Jax back

Ariza
jax
Rj

my top 3

[Bruno]

Jackson is a ballhog and has an ugly contract. I would have like more Spurs not doing a trade and playing Finley 35mpg than doing a trade for Jackson.

Jefferson hasn't had a great start but I'm going with him because he is still better than the rest.

[z0sa]

IMO rj is still the nobrainer

[timvp]

I probably should have included Corey Maggette since the Warriors would likely salary dump him. Oh well.

Caron Butler wouldn't have been available last offseason. Good thought, though.

[polandprzem]

I tought INSTEAD of Richard

nvm

[Muser]

Ideal would be Ariza, but i'm still very happy with RJ.

[Bruno]

And where is Theron Smith? :stirpot:

[FvckMavs]

James white. By this time he would have the mid-range to 3 point jumper down, he was always great at attacking the basket and if he wasn't known as a dunker in college he would have been known as a defender.

He can dunk. But I didn't see he was great at attacking the basket.

[EricB]

James White can dunk and....... yeah thats about it.


Reading all the possibilities you want to say Ariza.

That being said is ARIZA > Jefferson + McDyess?

The answer to that is no.

So, all the options, all that was available, while not the best player out of all of them, Jefferson will end up being the best fit + chemistry fit.

[VBM]

Jax, only because we wouldn't have to be BS'ing with this "learning the system" stuff with him. Granted, it's been 6 years since he played for us, so I'm sure things have changed somewhat + he'd have to get reaquainted with the system...but the mark of any new guy on the Spurs is that they're scared to take shots at first. Jax has no fear when it comes to getting his shots.

[Spursfanfromafar]

All that matters to me are ..who is the most efficient of them all? Who among them is the most durable, that can help a injury hit squad? Who, among them, can accept a reduced role and try to flourish within it, and is willing to reduce flaws and learn on the role as the season progresses?

Hindsight is always 20-20, but Richard Jefferson seems to answer the questions best among the others. RJ continues to be the best choice. He hasn't performed more than adequately, but his endurance, durability, and willingness to cut his mistakes have helped and will continue to help in the long run.

[024]

stephen jackson. but only because ginobili has been unable to regain his status as a scorer. the only two on that list that can let fly whenever they want is vince carter and sjax. the only one i trust on the spurs to chuck some shots is jackson, a former spur. his defense is pretty good too.

[timvp]

And where is Theron Smith? :stirpot:

:lol

I didn't put him on the list because I wanted a competitive vote. Theron would have won it in a landslide.

[biziofromdowntown]

Sjax for me boys....he's a Stud!

[objective]

Jackson will win this one in a landslide and I voted for him, but it's not really a fair question.

On June 24th, VC and RJ were the only two available and the Spurs reportedly tried for VC first. GS wouldn't have traded Jackson for expirings on June 24th and conventional wisdom on that date was that Artest and Ariza would stay with their former teams unless offered more than the MLE by another team.

If only Jackson had made his trade demand in June....

I wanted Jackson as well, but this is all true.

GS was salary dumping, but it was Jamal Crawford who was available and dumped right after the Jefferson trade. It took Jackson 4 more months of being a total cancer to finally get the Warriors to trade him, and the Spurs had the Oberto-Bowen contract deadlines to deal with.

Under "Pros" for Jackson, I know it has "championship mettle" but I think it could be expounded upon with how clutch Jackson is. Playoff time, Jackson never backed down. All anyone remembers from the 2003 WCF game 6 was Kerr, but without Jackson knocking down just as many 3s to get the Spurs close Kerr doesn't get a chance. Hell, in 03 in the 1st round, WCF and Finals Jackson was ridiculously clutch in all the clinching games 4th quarters. And in game 6 against the Mavs with the Warriors, same thing.

[lurker23]

Jack is easily my answer. Here's something I wrote over the summer, before the RJ trade:


Jack at his current contract and his current output is a steal. If there's any shot the Spurs could land him, I'd be all for it. I really don't mind his long-term deal; the thought of Parker+Manu+Jack+Duncan through 2012 makes me drool.


In fact, the more I think about it, I'd be willing to give up any player on the Spurs roster short of the Big 3 to get Jack back. Sure, Bruce+Oberto for Jack works, but I'd be willing to throw RMJ or even George Hill into the mix. Not that I want to, mind you, but sometimes you have to give up quality to get quality.

As I said there, I really don't mind Jack's contract. Yes, it's long, and it's not chump-change, but it's not exactly $15 million a year either. I also feel like a lot of his negative attributes go away or are strongly dampened when he puts on a Spurs uniform.

However, the thing is, Stephen Jackson wasn't available when the Spurs were looking to make their trade. He was still supposedly happy in GS and GS was supposedly happy with him; he had signed an extension just 7 months before I typed those words above, so I don't really think he was available.

All this being said, Jefferson is a close 2nd on this list. He fits with the Spurs personality perfectly, and the fact that his contract expires after 2010-11 gives the Spurs more flexibility. They can choose to resign him at the relatively-young age of 31 (likely at a much lower price), or go a different direction for the post-Duncan era.

Also, they were able to get Jefferson for expiring contracts and, amazingly, zero draft picks or other talent. Would that have been the case with Captain Jack? As I said over the summer, probably not (at least not until he blew up on them). Is RJ + RMJ > Jack? Hard to say, but I think we can all agree that all of these swingmen are not necessarily apples to apples comparsions, and the first word of the thread title is dead-on: all of this is pure hindsight.

[MaNu4Tres]

What about Tyrone Nesby?

[NFGIII]

Reading all the possibilities you want to say Ariza.

That being said is ARIZA > Jefferson + McDyess?

The answer to that is No.

So, all the options, all that was available, while not the best player out of all of them, Jefferson will end up being the best fit + chemistry fit.

I would have voted for Ariza (primarily due to his age) if Dice could have been signed but since that couldn't happen then I went with Sjax but RJ was close second. Maybe there would have been a chemistry issue with Sjax and the Spurs but maybe not. That's a "what if" type of scenario IMHO.

I don't believe that VC would have fit very well into our system and we all know what happens to Marion come playoff time. Just stick a good defender on him and he vanishes. Anyway as Timvp stated he is in steep decline and therefore not an option. As for Ron Ron its the same as with Ariza - having to use the MLE to get him thereby losing out on Dice.

So I also conclude that Ron Ron < RJ + Dice, too.

I believe that getting a quality big is just as important as getttng an athletic wing. With the current situation we have both.

:flag:

[hsxvvd]

Battier.

[Spurs Brazil]

I'm fine with RJ and Jax would be my 2nd option

[benefactor]

Jack...for many of the reasons that lurker23 pointed out.

[I. Hustle]

Your mom
http://www.eastcoastpolecats.com/old_lady_pole_dancing.jpg

Pros

- She dribbles the balls well

- Could have signed her for the bare minimum

- Takes great direction

- Not afraid to get down and dirty

- Never lazy on the D

Cons

- not very loyal

- has a wandering eye (not really her fault though because she was born with it)

- Can't be trusted around the towel boy

- Age is a huge factor







lol not directed at you timvp so don't ban,pink, or give me the stink eye lol

[ffadicted]

RJ is the perfect mix of role player/star player that we needed, and quite frankly the only one (along with Ariza actually) that seemed to fit the bill. I don't think we coudl've made a trade for a big as useful as Dice, so spending the MLE on Ariza wouldn't have been the best solution IMO.

RJ is the best fit for the spurs

[SpurNation]

Jackson would have been my first choice.

I think the "attitude" association with Jackson is overhyped. His salary is not that much different than Jeffersons and...having been in this system once before...I think his transition would have been smoother. That plus Jackson plays much better D IMO.

I like Jackson's "passion" for the game though he probably would have never been considered after snubbing the Spurs once before for a lesser contract at the time.

I guess one would have to question his "loyalty" for a team over his loyalty to himself...but to me...Duncan's window is small and Jackson on the team would have been a better option to helping secure the team and Duncan to get at least one more title within that window.

We'll see.

[FlAVaK]

James white. By this time he would have the mid-range to 3 point jumper down, he was always great at attacking the basket and if he wasn't known as a dunker in college he would have been known as a defender.

Raise the bar as much as you want, ! will always get over it...

[mountainballer]

John Salmons?
ok, not as exciting as the others, but he was definitely on the Spurs radar last year and he is definitely on the trade block right now.

[Chieflion]

Hard to choose. The Spurs wanted some stability and a guy who can play all 82 games of the season and the playoffs. So, Vince Carter, who has gotten injured this year, is out of the equation. Ron Artest would have only gone to the Lakers. Stephen Jackson's percentages, I never really liked them when he was on the Spurs, usually in the low 40s.

I would take Trevor Ariza if we did not acquire Keith Bogans. This one is RJ, the Spurs made the correct move if they wanted a guy who can play all 82 games at a solid level.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

RJ is slowly learning to fit into this team. His occasional ferocity when dunking has been a very pleasant surprise for Spurs fans, and I love it when he gets aggressive and starts attacking the hole, but his jumpshot always makes me cringe a little. And his D is choppy.

Give me Jax back in a heartbeat.

[HarlemHeat37]

Ariza would have been my choice in hindsight, but I'm still happy with the RJ acquisition, especially for what we gave up..

Our offense is 4th in the NBA..RJ has contributed to that, but not enough that it would severely hurt the ranking if we had Ariza instead..the offense has been great this year since we have so many weapons, but the D has been just above average..

Ariza is one of the best 1 on 1 defenders in the NBA..he would give us our first long defender to start at the 3 in a while, and it would also allow Mason to start since we wouldn't need a defender at the 2..

Ariza has also proven to be arguably the best defender against Kobe this year, which would obviously help us if we meet them in the playoffs..

I like McDyess, I think he could be one of the best bench bigs in the NBA, but using the MLE on Ariza would have forced the FO into trading the rest of the expiring contracts for a big man and also would have probably been forced to give Ian a shot earlier too..

It's all in hindsight though..

I'm happy with RJ and I hope the FO can bring in the final piece.

[vander]

we probably couldn't have ever gotten him, but I've always wanted Andre Iguodala

[Chieflion]

we probably couldn't have ever gotten him, but I've always wanted Andre Iguodala
Yep. Same here. Too bad any trade involving Iggy would have the team taking back Brand.

[alchemist]

Ariza then RJ.

[baseline bum]

The same one I wanted since '03-04: Buckets. Ariza and Jefferson were (and are) my #2 and #3 of the list, and Carter and Marion are two I absolutely did not want.

[Obstructed_View]

The same one I wanted since '03-04: Buckets. Ariza and Jefferson were (and are) my #2 and #3 of the list, and Carter and Marion are two I absolutely did not want.

I'm basically the opposite of that with the same vote. I'm pretty sure I talked down the idea of bringing Jack back when the idea was floated. That said, the Jefferson trade caught me completely off guard (I thought the Spurs had gotten Al Jefferson), but if it had been possible to get Buckets for what the Spurs gave up, I'd have to say I'd be for it in hindsight.

[quentin_compson]

Ariza would have been the most intriguing player in my opinion. Alright, he is not shooting the ball well for Houston right now, but he wouldn't have been asked to carry the offense like this in San Antonio. Defensively, he would have been much better than RJ, and I don't know if he would have felt the need to be a somewhat questionable guy characterwise here.

On the other hand, he left LA partly because he wanted to play a bigger role on a team, and he wouldn't have had that situation here.

I'm still quite pleased we got RJ, though. He certainly could step up his game in certain areas, but his 13 PPG and his shooting percentages aren't bad. I didn't think he would score more than 15 a game anyway on this team.

[HarlemHeat37]

I would have been very happy with any of those guys outside of Marion and Artest either way..

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I had to think pretty hard about this one. Jefferson and Jackson both bring a lot to the table. RJ is not going to make the mental mistakes Jackson makes, but I don't know of too many guys that express that will to win quite like SJax.

I ended up voting SJax primarily because he has that swagger than the Spurs seem to lack a little of this year. I also have seen SJax play Dirk tough on many occassions. The Mavs are the west team that I feel like the Spurs are going to have the most trouble matching up with in the post season. Even moreso than LA despite LA being the most talented of the two teams by far....and SJax is pretty good against LA, too.

It was really a toss-up in my book, and I think Jefferson has all the potential to be a great Spur...and is evolving into a better and better fit everyday. SJax showed me in '03 what he's made of...to me he's a proven commodity where Jefferson is still a work in progress at this point. That probably sealed my SJax vote.

[Obstructed_View]

I'm still quite pleased we got RJ, though. He certainly could step up his game in certain areas, but his 13 PPG and his shooting percentages aren't bad. I didn't think he would score more than 15 a game anyway on this team.

True. He's not getting the attempts to be able to score like he has in the past, and his defense really isn't that awful. What I'm really hoping he can do going forward is have more of an impact on the outcome of the game. I'm not sure that he's ever been a guy that picks his own spots like Manu does, which is why I voted for Jack.

[5ToolMan]

I love SJ's game and give him all the props for his key part in delivering Spur Championship #2. With TA only 24 years old, he has so much promise. But in the end, with the way the Spurs TEAM is built in 2010 and the next couple of years, RJ will be the best choice come playoff time.

[xellos88330]

I am torn between RJ and SJax.

Picked SJax because he helped the Spurs win a title before.

RJ isn't bad either. I am hoping he will be a force for this team in the post season.

[Dro210]

The same one I wanted since '03-04: Buckets. Ariza and Jefferson were (and are) my #2 and #3 of the list, and Carter and Marion are two I absolutely did not want.

Exactly the way I feel about it. Buckets! I wasn't completely opposed to Carter, but if it was gonna take Hill or Mase, which it was, I didn't want him. And in hindsight, I wouldn't want him period.

How we couldn't want Stephen Jackson was/is beyond me. What doesn't he do on a court? I'm admittedly alittle biased, lol (sig check), but I feel like his floor game is as good as Lebron's (doesn't mean I think he's as good as Lebron). He doesn't have that athleticism, power, and speed that make Lebron so special, but he's got a better outside shot, and he's more clutch. He's a smart player, all-around defender. He can handle Dirk better than most anybody in the league, and definitely better than anybody we've got. He wasn't an off-court problem last time, and I don't think it would have been any different this time around I think Larry Brown has already fallen in love with him, and Larry's a tough guy to please.

I liked what HarlemHeat said about Ariza. Some good stuff. Factoring in what he said about an Ariza signing w/ the MLE forcing a trade for a big. I think Ariza could have been really good for us. My downside to him is, how much could we trust Manu to stay healthy? I really wouldn't want Ariza having to step into a bigger scoring role like that for us if he were to go down. It would probably balance out with his defense and Mason stepping up offensively, but that weakens the bench production, and I don't know, I just don't trust it. With Manu healthy and performing tho, he's probably the best fit in that Bowen role. Although I would still want Jackson.

If we were talking about this a few weeks ago, I'd have a different take on Jefferson, but he's been coming on. The thing he's frustrated me with all year is just the effort. When he brings the effort, which he's been doing more, and especially when he attacks the basket aggresively, we instantly become a much better team. He's pretty efficient, doesn't really make alot of mistakes. I like the job he's doing right now, and I'm happy to have him. But...

I just don't think he has that "it" factor. He won't hurt you, but he won't save you. If I NEED a bucket, I know I can go to Jackson and feel good about it. I don't feel that way about RJ. And yea, I know we have 3 other go-to guys, but it's not like I'd rather have RJ doing anything on the court over Jackson. I'd rather have Jackson making an inbound pass, I'd rather have him handling the ball, rather have him on the defensive end, shooting free throws, setting screens.... Plus he just brings that fire, that "it", that passion, which is the thing RJ has lacked the most.


So I'm obviously going Buckets... it's tough to choose between RJ and Ariza for who I would take 2nd. RJ is the safer pick, Ariza has the big upside. Would be cool with any of the 3.

[MarCowMar]

Jefferson brings a lot to the table but it seems like we're using a third of his skills. Jackson probably couldn't have been obtained but he just fits the Spurs better. He plays better D, can guard more types of players, is clutch, and has lots of enthusiasm for the game.

I'd love to see lineups like this in the closing minutes of a game.

Hill/Parker
Manu
Jax
Blair/Ratliff/Dice
Duncan

Come on, tied score, two minutes left in the game, do you want to see Jax or RJ there? No way I can honestly answer anything other than Jax.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I had to think pretty hard about this one. Jefferson and Jackson both bring a lot to the table. RJ is not going to make the mental mistakes Jackson makes, but I don't know of too many guys that express that will to win quite like SJax.

I ended up voting SJax primarily because he has that swagger than the Spurs seem to lack a little of this year. I also have seen SJax play Dirk tough on many occassions. The Mavs are the west team that I feel like the Spurs are going to have the most trouble matching up with in the post season. Even moreso than LA despite LA being the most talented of the two teams by far....and SJax is pretty good against LA, too.

It was really a toss-up in my book, and I think Jefferson has all the potential to be a great Spur...and is evolving into a better and better fit everyday. SJax showed me in '03 what he's made of...to me he's a proven commodity where Jefferson is still a work in progress at this point. That probably sealed my SJax vote.

Nice post. :tu

[SpurCharger]

1. S Jax
2a. Ariza
2b. Jefferson
3. Carter
4. Marion
153. Artest

[galvatron3000]

I voted for Jackson by accident, should have been Jefferson.

[exstatic]

I'd take Ariza.

Wonder where all of the VC nutlickers are? Kinda hard to find now that he's breaking Orlando's offense like most of us said he'd do to the Spurs offense.

[HarlemHeat37]

Still here..he hasn't "broken" Orlando's offense, he doesn't coach the team..

[Bambililos]

I'd have liked Ariza too, for the defensive skills, the young age, and the motivation against his former team.

Jefferson is a ghost right now.

[Chieflion]

Gerald Wallace!

[Cant_Be_Faded]

The discussion gets too complex when you factor in salaries.

I'll just say I wish RJ were playing better.

[quentin_compson]

Gerald Wallace!

Nah, he has no three point shot.

[Capt Bringdown]

I think Artest would have been a good fit because of his defensive intensity. However I think it would've probably been Rodman all over again, as Pop's coaching has lost a step and I don't think he has enough fire in the belly to properly handle Artest.

SJ would have been wonderful. RJ doesn't even look like he wants to be out there and is a bust so far.

There's still time for RJ to redeem his lost season, but at this point he seems primed for a playoff meltdown/no-show.

[spurspokesman]

Trevor Ariza.

He's having a bad season with the Rockets because he thinks he needs to be the star on that team. With the Spurs he would be a top role player.
Great defender, great motivation against the Lakers, great 3pts shooter when he plays like a role player.

The Spurs would be a much better defense team with him.
He also rebounds and was a key part if not half the reason la won the ship with countless clutch plays on offense and defense.

[Blackjack]

Well in this hypothetical, for reasons Mel and objective pointed out, it'd be between Jack and Ariza. Ariza would've been the best move for the business model and probably fit in seamlessly, but you know what Jack could do and bring; give me Ariza.

And I honestly don't think the Spurs would've been worse off record wise having not signed 'Dyess. Thomas and Oberto would've allowed the Spurs to maintain that corporate knowledge and chemistry to start the season, helping them to get off to a better start, and then could've been packaged mid-season to acquire the frontline help needed to put the team over the top; the mix would've have been much better having your stopper be your second or third best wing player and adding a legitimate number two big to play alongside Tim could've very well completed the puzzle..

[androck]

In hindsight, JR Smith...

Stephen Jackson is unstoppable! Once he starts jacking up horrible shots, no one can get him to stop. He's 31 years old and is averaging 17.5 FGA per game (career high) while shooting .413 from the field and .298 on the 4.7 3PT attempts he makes per game. He's pulling down 4.8 rebounds, and dishing out 3.7 assists while turning the ball over 3.2 times per game. Why you would want this guy on the Spurs is astounding to me.

Here's his per 36 minutes stats 2009-2010:
6.6 FGs on 16.1 attempts (.413) with 1.3 made 3PT on 4.3 attempts (.298) 4.4 rebounds, 3.4 assists, 1.5 steals, 2.9 turnovers.

Mystery Player's per 36 minutes stats 2009-2010:
5.3 FGs on 12.0 attempts (.447) with 2.3 made 3PT on 5.9 attempts (.392) 3.9 rebounds, 3.7 assists, 0.6 steals, 1.6 turnovers.

What if we could sign this "mystery player" instead for less money? Oh wait, those are Roger Mason Jr.'s stats!

I think everyone remembers how great SJax was in the playoffs for the Spurs one year and has ignored the entire rest of his career, like that time he fired a gun in a strip club.

[Spursfan 87]

Jax without question


But the spurs had the opportunity of having both Jax and RJ. They should had traded Mason, Bonner, and a 1strounder for Jax. Maybe throw in Splitter as well.

[Chieflion]

Nah, he has no three point shot.
That really matters when Manu does not drive into the paint like he does in the past? I wished someone had the balls to attack the paint and had the ability to steal and block shots like Gerald on this team.

[HarlemHeat37]

Having both Jax and RJ would have been nice, but we still need a big man, and trading those contracts for a big man is still the better idea..

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

In hindsight, JR Smith...

Stephen Jackson is unstoppable! Once he starts jacking up horrible shots, no one can get him to stop. He's 31 years old and is averaging 17.5 FGA per game (career high) while shooting .413 from the field and .298 on the 4.7 3PT attempts he makes per game. He's pulling down 4.8 rebounds, and dishing out 3.7 assists while turning the ball over 3.2 times per game. Why you would want this guy on the Spurs is astounding to me.

Here's his per 36 minutes stats 2009-2010:
6.6 FGs on 16.1 attempts (.413) with 1.3 made 3PT on 4.3 attempts (.298) 4.4 rebounds, 3.4 assists, 1.5 steals, 2.9 turnovers.

Mystery Player's per 36 minutes stats 2009-2010:
5.3 FGs on 12.0 attempts (.447) with 2.3 made 3PT on 5.9 attempts (.392) 3.9 rebounds, 3.7 assists, 0.6 steals, 1.6 turnovers.

What if we could sign this "mystery player" instead for less money? Oh wait, those are Roger Mason Jr.'s stats!

I think everyone remembers how great SJax was in the playoffs for the Spurs one year and has ignored the entire rest of his career, like that time he fired a gun in a strip club.

I'm all for stats, but that post is a great example of how stats don't necessarily measure the true value of all players.

Things not captured by those statistics:

1. Jax is a cold-blooded killer when the game is on the line - he has taken and made big time, momentum swinging shots his whole career. Occasionally he'll shoot you out of the game, but under a disciplined coach like Pop or Larry that's less of an issue.

2. When motivated and commited, Jax is an excellent defender and has shown that he can defend Spur-killas like Dirk.

3. Jax under the influence of Pop and Timmy is clearly a different player and a different man to Jax left to roam on his own. He's the kind of guy who thrives under strong leadership and flounders otherwise. As a Spur, I think you'd see a bit more discipline and restraint in his game (and probably his life), and somewhat more efficient statistics.

Actually, he wasn't in the poll, but I agree with Chieflion - Gerald Wallace would fit our team like a glove. And as to quentin_compson's comment that he has no 3pt shot, we have enough guys who can do that. Wallace would be the ideal small ball 4 for us, and would be able to cover Bonner's rebounding deficiencies in a bigger lineup with Wallace at the 3. Of course, it ain't gonna happen though...

[quentin_compson]

That really matters when Manu does not drive into the paint like he does in the past? I wished someone had the balls to attack the paint and had the ability to steal and block shots like Gerald on this team.

Can't say I disagree on the attacking-the-basket part, but we still took 25 threes last night, which is more than any other team save the Knicks and the Magic.

[Muser]

G-Force on the Spurs is an instant title.

[wildbill2u]

I added in Shawn Marion. Let me know if I forgot anyone else who fits into the discussion.

Shane Battier wouldve been a nice fit here.

He does so much for the Rockets he is probably their one 'untouchable' active player right now. Per of +10

[exstatic]

Still here..he hasn't "broken" Orlando's offense, he doesn't coach the team..

lol, thinking a player can't break the offense. VC takes too many shots and not good ones. He's at career lows for FG% and his 3G% is lower than any time but his rookie year (.389/.303), and Dwight Howard's offense is suffering as a result. Put it this way: he's playing worse this year than the year he was dogging it to get out of Toronto (.411/.322), yet another reason I didn't want this selfish prick anywhere near the Silver and Black.

VC has 494 FGA. Dwight Howard has 363 FGA. Call me crazy, but I think the guy shooting .601 needs more touches that the idiot shooting .389. SVG is about to put his gunner ass on the bench, and it's about time.

[Whisky Dog]

SJax, not because I think it would have definitely worked, but because of the great story - the last charge of Tim Duncan and his core '03 Title Squad. That would have been awesome.

Also, I like Jeff but he seems timid at times, Jax would have brought the balls.

[NickiRasgo]

Trade RJ + Finley for Battier & Ariza. :D

[DAF86]

I selected Marion 'cause I didn't see Ariza's option. I wanted a defensive minded wing but RJ is OK too, Pop needs to call more plays for him and tell him to be agressive.

[HarlemHeat37]

Something annoying about the RJ acquisition is that the Spurs are currently #26 in the NBA in fast break points..Jefferson is known as one of the better fast break players in the NBA, that's always been a significant part of his game..we heard during the Summer how the Spurs were going to utilize this more often, and we haven't seen that yet..

It's just strange to me that they would acquire somebody and not use him as much as they should or at least use him in a way that he would be more comfortable..it's not like this team doesn't have players that can run a capable fast break with him, as we've seen this year when Manu runs with him..

[DPG21920]

I like RJ. I think too many people have given up on Dice early. I agree that the early returns don't look promising, but I am not ready to bury him yet.

Even if you take out the Dice argument and just look at each players abilities, I still think RJ is right there with everyone else if not ahead. Adding Dice to the equation makes this a no brainer imo.

[Capt Bringdown]

Something annoying about the RJ acquisition is that the Spurs are currently #26 in the NBA in fast break points.


If that's not a telling indictment of Pop's coaching I don't know what is. Extremely frustrating and disappointing.
Regrettably, PJ's jab about the Spurs "simulator crew" is all-too accurate at times.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I like RJ. I think too many people have given up on Dice early. I agree that the early returns don't look promising, but I am not ready to bury him yet.

Even if you take out the Dice argument and just look at each players abilities, I still think RJ is right there with everyone else if not ahead. Adding Dice to the equation makes this a no brainer imo.

I'm a bit disappointed in Dice at this point given that I thought from the start that he was our guy over Sheed and that he'd fit in very quickly. However, he is a second half of the season player, and is looking increasingly comfortable, so I think he has a lot of room to grow over the coming months and a lot of people will be surprised by his contribution come playoff time.

[kace]

at the time the spurs made the trade, i was clearly all for RJ rather than any other swingman avaible.


Now, i'll stick with RJ, but it's a lot more close when you look at timvp list. i still hope he will be more consistent and that this trade will be a succes.

[mountainballer]

I'm missing one name. (even if I know what reaction to expect):
Mike Miller
yes, I know. he is neither a perimeter stopper, nor athletic and he wasn't healthy much this season.
but here is asked for a swingman, right.
first off, I have always been a big fan of MM's game. and fact is, the Spurs did inquire for him at last dead line. (if this trade happens, Spurs don't trade for RJ, something a lot of Spurs fans would prefer at this point)
in theory, the Spurs could still trade for him at this deadline.
(and yes, I agree that we have other priorities, like a big or a real stopper. but what if we can't find any of these player types, who are good enough to in fact improve the Spurs)
Miller for Mason, Fin, Ian, Haislip works. trow in a pick and the Wizards do it, they no Miller will leave that mess the moment his contract expires.
what's the upside?
aside his defense (Miller is better than given credit though. likely better than RJ) Miller is Pop's dream. a fantastic shooter (better than Mason, who struggles when defended intensively), a very efficient scorer, who is smart enough to do the right thing at the right time. very good ball handler, who can play the point. (other than Mason). pretty good rebounder.
he is more or less a 6'8'' 29 years old version of Brent Barry.

what would make him most intriguing IMO at this moment, is how he would fit with this roster.
he would bring a huge size advantage, if played at SG. this would compensate for some of the lack of size most of the current Spurs line ups display. especially when Spurs go small and play RJ at PF.

another point: Spurs would also get his bird rights. Miller likely won't get more than MLE offers this summer. if he woks nice with this team, they could re sign him at MLE level, without spending the MLE. (which will be used for Splitter). MM will be 30 this summer. a 3 years contract at MLE looks nice in my book.

[TDMVPDPOY]

lol@idiots callin out jax

yeh sure jax is a volume shooter or a chucka whatever you wanna call it, u know whats the difference he doesnt care to pull the trigger and he makes them when it counts, his intensity to make love to pressure is something some of the spurs players are missing. His defense and ballhandling duties is enough to cover up his negative chucka game....

[Dex]

The soft spot in my heart for the 2003 team would not let me choose any other than SJax.

[benefactor]

I never thought of Mike Miller. His skill set does fit very well for this team and he has an expiring deal.

That said, he has been battling a calf injury since late November. Unless he proves that he can stay healthy for an extended string of games I don't see any reason to pursue him.

[TJastal]

Artest would foul out of every game if he was a spur. The refs would be all over him like stink on shit. He'd have to tone down the most effective part of his game in order to make it to the 4th quarters as a spur. As a laker, its a much better situation because he will get away with tons more contact on both ends of the floor. I think he has fouled out of maybe 1 game all year long on the lakers which is a miracle considering the way he plays.

Ariza would have probably done well on the spurs. He faired well in his role on the lakers as a standstill 3 pt shooter, and that's the role he'd have with the spurs. Helluva perimeter defender too and that's where the spurs would really have cashed in with this guy.

Jackson would have been a nice addition as well. He has much better handles than Jefferson and can create for others. It's clear that Jefferson needs to be force fed the ball in order to produce. Jackson wouldn't have needed that as much.

Overall I'd give the nod to Jackson, followed closely by Ariza then Jefferson.

[rascal]

I added in Shawn Marion. Let me know if I forgot anyone else who fits into the discussion.

Caron Butler

[ginobilized]

I'm going with RJ.
I believe Pop said it best "RJ is Stephen Jackson without the drama."

[Bigzax]

Artest no question. Best defensive player on the list and enough body and athleticism to contain our toughest matchups.

His outside shot is gravy and his mental fortitude would have benefited from a stable environment, no doubt. He peppers in a few rebounds consistently as well.

That would have been my vote anyway...

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

i'm going with rj.
I believe pop said it best "rj is stephen jackson without the drama
...or the defense, clutch shooting and all-around game..."

fify.

[Johnny RIngo]

fify.

+10000000000000

[SouthTexasRancher]

If contracts are not involved then

1) SJax

2) Vinsanity

Last) The do nothing RJ and throw Dice in the trash heap as well.

Either Jax or VC would both give us offensive when we go into those looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong ass slumps where we couldn't hit the Gulf of Mexico if we were standing waist deep in it. Neither would be any worse than our current group. In fact Jax can play 'D' when he is prodded into it by a guy like Timmy. He'd fit in immediately and I'd bet anything he'd love to come home to the Spurs!

It is past time for RJ & Dice to take a crap or get out of the outhouse. We let guys like Scola, Bruce and Fab go for them two lazy ass bums!

[SPURadic]

I'd take Ariza for the MLE and use the expiring contracts we had for a big like Camby or Okafor. (If that was even possible considering the wants and needs of the Clippers and Bobcats)

[itzsoweezee]

well, at least people are now acknowledging that vince carter is a terrible basketball player.

[jdev82]

I probably should have included Corey Maggette since the Warriors would likely salary dump him. Oh well.

Caron Butler wouldn't have been available last offseason. Good thought, though.

i would rather have had maggette than anybody on that list for the spurs system

[angelbelow]

VC has looked horrible so far this season. His numbers are all below his previous averages and I thought he looked slow and unmotivated in todays game against the Lakers.

[outmap]

Gerald Wallace looks really good right now, but I doubt Larry Brown will ship him. Bobcats are looking like a playoff contender.

[024]

knowing what everyone knows now, that ginobili can't score, jefferson can't score, parker would be injured so can't score, spurs would need someone to add 20 points a night to help out duncan. enter stephen jackson, who right now is better than jefferson in both offense and defense.

from the rest of the list though, jefferson is still second best. carter sucks now and the other options take up the MLE the spurs used to sign mcdyess. mcdyess may seem listless right now but anyone who knows him understands that he plays with all heart. just not for the first half of the season.

[TDMVPDPOY]

knowing what everyone knows now, that ginobili can't score, jefferson can't score, parker would be injured so can't score, spurs would need someone to add 20 points a night to help out duncan. enter stephen jackson, who right now is better than jefferson in both offense and defense.

from the rest of the list though, jefferson is still second best. carter sucks now and the other options take up the MLE the spurs used to sign mcdyess. mcdyess may seem listless right now but anyone who knows him understands that he plays with all heart. just not for the first half of the season.

shouldve pulled the trigger 1 month ago, now it looks like jax has settle in his new home, doubt the cats going to trade him to us....what can we offer them that they want excluding duncan....

[DAF86]

I want a young/healthy Ginobili.

[DAF86]

knowing what everyone knows now, that ginobili can't score, jefferson can't score, parker would be injured so can't score, spurs would need someone to add 20 points a night to help out duncan. enter stephen jackson, who right now is better than jefferson in both offense and defense.

Jackson can only score 20 pts per game while taking close to 20 shot per game, do you really want to see S-Jax taking shots away from Tim, Tony, Manu, Blair, etc.? RJ could score 20 pts per game while taking the amount of shots that Stephen takes, in fact he would probably score a lot more.

Jackson=overrated by some Spurs fans

[TDMVPDPOY]

Jackson can only score 20 pts per game while taking close to 20 shot per game, do you really want to see S-Jax taking shots away from Tim, Tony, Manu, Blair, etc.? RJ could score 20 pts per game while taking the amount of shots that Stephen takes, in fact he would probably score a lot more.

Jackson=overrated by Spurs fans

we all know jax is a volume shooter, but he makes shots when they count...

hence if he was back on the spurs, he be asked to do what he did in 03, and that is pick and pop from the extra pass to the open man, he wont be pulling a NVE dribbling down the court with 20secs left on the clock and throwing up a jumper....

[DAF86]

we all know jax is a volume shooter, but he makes shots when they count...

hence if he was back on the spurs, he be asked to do what he did in 03, and that is pick and pop from the extra pass to the open man, he wont be pulling a NVE dribbling down the court with 20secs left on the clock and throwing up a jumper....

Therefore he won't be making 20 pts per game.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Therefore he won't be making 20 pts per game.

well he will never be asked to score 20ppg on the spurs system, cause he wont be able to

[JR3]

I think Ariza is the best fit because of his youth and defense. He can hit the three and can create his own shot. He is basically has everything that richard jefferson has, but younger and can defend. Maybe he can't post up like jefferson, but I will take that trade off.. we have a couple of players who can post up I'd say.

[DAF86]

well he will never be asked to score 20ppg on the spurs system, cause he wont be able to

That's my point, I was responding to 024

[venitian navigator]

My choice is for Ariza at mle but only if we could have paired him with a very good big via trade (expiring contracts). The names of Kaman, Camby, Biedrins, Murphy comes to my mind...but I think no one of them was really available.
Otherwise, Jackson and RJ.

Actually, with Hill in the starting line up paired with Parker (like in our last game) the Jefferson's choice could be considered the best one with the thought of a starting five completed with a pair of bigs that can rebound and run the court (al la Duncan - Mahinmi).
That would make us an up-tempo team, with two guards able to lead a very good running game.
But our choice as always been for a more controlled game...so the Stephen Jackson choice, if available, would have made a lot of sense...

[androck]

It is amazing to me how many Stephen Jackson worshipers there are on this board. SJax the savior! SJax the hero! His playoff stats are even WORSE than his regular season numbers. He is NOT an elite player and his contract is way too expensive.

.394 FG, .328 3PT, 15.1 PPG, 4.0 RPG, and 2.9 APG in 36 MPG. Most importantly, he has an ORtg of 97 and a DRtg of 104 with a usage rate of 22.3%. He's getting the ball almost 1/4 of the time while having more turnovers than assists.

Much like Allen Iverson, people are impressed by the flash of SJax when the substance just isn't there. This is surprising from a group that watches Duncan dominate night in and night out without trying to make any highlight reels.

[rascal]

well, at least people are now acknowledging that vince carter is a terrible basketball player.

Carter is coming to the end of the line now, on the decline .
Carter > Manu
Carter has had a better nba career, better stats more all star appearances, unfortunately he did not play with Duncan or else he has the rings and Manu has nothing.

[DAF86]

Carter is coming to the end of the line now, on the decline .
Carter > Manu
Carter has had a better nba career, better stats more all star appearances, unfortunately he did not play with Duncan or else he has the rings and Manu has nothing.

Acumulating better stats and all star appearences on crappy teams is having a better NBA career than winning three championships while beign a very important piece of that team's success?

What makes Carter a better player than Ginobili? the fact that he can jump higher? Or that he takes a lot of shots or that he doesn't even try on defense? Maybe his low BB IQ? please tell me.

[androck]

Acumulating better stats and all star appearences on crappy teams is having a better NBA career than winning three championships while beign a very important piece of that team's success?

What makes Carter a better player than Ginobili? the fact that he can jump higher? Or that he takes a lot of shots or that he doesn't even try on defense? Maybe his low BB IQ? please tell me.

I think Ginobili is slightly better than Vince but at his peak, Vince Carter was one of the best players in the league. When he was with Toronto, he was a 25/5/4 player shooting .450 from the field and almost .400 from 3PT. His career was derailed by back injuries and an apparent lack of work ethic. He has a career TS% of .536 which is almost as good as Kobe's .557. I think Manu was a top 3 SG in the league from 2005-2007 behind only Kobe and DWade and at his peak, Vince was a top 3 SF while playing for Toronto.

[TDMVPDPOY]

I think Ginobili is slightly better than Vince but at his peak, Vince Carter was one of the best players in the league. When he was with Toronto, he was a 25/5/4 player shooting .450 from the field and almost .400 from 3PT. His career was derailed by back injuries and an apparent lack of work ethic. He has a career TS% of .536 which is almost as good as Kobe's .557. I think Manu was a top 3 SG in the league from 2005-2007 behind only Kobe and DWade and at his peak, Vince was a top 3 SF while playing for Toronto.

meaningless stats on a 1 man team, just ask KG whats it like to statpad

[024]

Jackson can only score 20 pts per game while taking close to 20 shot per game, do you really want to see S-Jax taking shots away from Tim, Tony, Manu, Blair, etc.? RJ could score 20 pts per game while taking the amount of shots that Stephen takes, in fact he would probably score a lot more.

Jackson=overrated by some Spurs fans
the comparison is between jefferson and jackson. i never called jackson the greatest swingman the spurs could have acquired. i also said jefferson was the second best option from that list.

jefferson is scoring but pretty much disappears for long stretches at a time and i can't remember the last time he took over a game. he's pretty passive on the offensive end. it's not necessarily his fault since he was brought in to be a role player. but now parker can't score 20+ a game due to injury, ginobili probably will never return as an elite scorer, and blair can score without plays called for him. offensive droughts are still prevalent and jefferson + ginobili are not helping. in the playoffs, the spurs won't want to depend on role players for scoring since they may or may not handle the pressure well. they need 3 players to score 20+ a game consistently to contend.

offense isn't really the biggest problem, the biggest problem with jefferson is his mentality and defense. soft on defense and soft on offense. jackson is kind of inconsistent defensively but plays competitively and aggressively when motivated. can't really remember a game when i can say the same about jefferson. jackson is also an underrated playmaker. in 08-09, despite scoring 20 points a game, he still finds the time to rack up 6.5 assists. also, the salary difference is quite large. jackson is just a better all around player who gets paid less.

[androck]

meaningless stats on a 1 man team, just ask KG whats it like to statpad

Kevin Garnett is one of the 10 greatest power forwards of all time. If he and Timmy switched places, he'd probably have two or three rings with the Spurs (99 and 2007 for sure, maybe 2003, probably not 2005) and Duncan wouldn't have one until he joined the Celtics. I think TD has been the better player but it's not by much.

[NFGIII]

meaningless stats on a 1 man team, just ask KG whats it like to statpad

Manu brings so much more to the team with his intagibles than VC ever could. I have really enjoyed watching VC play at times but when things aren't going his way he tends to fade and lack effort. Manu on the other hand just plays balls to the wall all the time. Yeah, at times he makes some bonehead plays but then turns around and makes one of the most brilliant ones of the night. Case in point - Thunder game - 0-10 from the field and he makes a pass to Dice, who's not looking, and then jumps out of bounds to saves the ball to Hill and RJ makes the game winning J. Didn't score a point but made a difference.

I'll always remember VC's comments about his time in Toronto. That was a disgrace IMHO. He tanked it to get out of Toronto! He could have been honest and let his option run out and signed with another team as a UFA but he didn't. He tanked it and forced Toronto to trade him. Yeah that's a quality player you want on your team.

[rascal]

Manu brings so much more to the team with his intagibles than VC ever could. I have really enjoyed watching VC play at times but when things aren't going his way he tends to fade and lack effort. Manu on the other hand just plays balls to the wall all the time. Yeah, at times he makes some bonehead plays but then turns around and makes one of the most brilliant ones of the night. Case in point - Thunder game - 0-10 from the field and he makes a pass to Dice, who's not looking, and then jumps out of bounds to saves the ball to Hill and RJ makes the game winning J. Didn't score a point but made a difference.

I'll always remember VC's comments about his time in Toronto. That was a disgrace IMHO. He tanked it to get out of Toronto! He could have been honest and let his option run out and signed with another team as a UFA but he didn't. He tanked it and forced Toronto to trade him. Yeah that's a quality player you want on your team.


If manu hit some of those shots that game is not even close and his out of bounds pass was on a ball he lost.

[rascal]

Acumulating better stats and all star appearences on crappy teams is having a better NBA career than winning three championships while beign a very important piece of that team's success?

What makes Carter a better player than Ginobili? the fact that he can jump higher? Or that he takes a lot of shots or that he doesn't even try on defense? Maybe his low BB IQ? please tell me.


Do not throw out championships and claim that is why one player is better than another. Carter has the better overall career nba stats, which measure individual performance. Championships are team accomplishments and has much to do with who is on your team.

[DAF86]

If manu hit some of those shots that game is not even close and his out of bounds pass was on a ball he lost.

It was a bad game for him make no mistake about it, but he still stayed with his head on the game and made plays to help the team win at the end, I think that's the point NFGIII was trying to make and no the ball was not out of bounds. Are you a troll or something like that?

[DAF86]

Do not throw out championships and claim that is why one player is better than another. Carter has the better overall career nba stats, which measure individual performance. Championships are team accomplishments and has much to do with who is on your team.

You said Carter had a better NBA career because he has better stats and more all-star appearences and I disagree with that comment.

I don't know about you but I would rather be an important piece of a champioship team than a stat padder for a crappy one.

If Manu and Carter switch places, Carter would have probably had the rings (I want to think that he's not that big of a cancer to offset Duncan's greatness) but Manu would have definitely had the stats while (I'm sure of this) somehow also making the team he played for a winning team.

[androck]

Do not throw out championships and claim that is why one player is better than another. Carter has the better overall career nba stats, which measure individual performance. Championships are team accomplishments and has much to do with who is on your team.

I disagree with your claim that Carter has better overall career NBA stats. If you look at PER36 stats for both players, you will find rebounding and assist numbers to be very close. Manu gets about 1 more steal per 36 but also turns the ball over more. The area where they diverge quite a bit is on points. Manu averages 19.0 per 36 and Carter averages 22.4. However, look at FGA per 36. Manu takes 13.5 and Carter takes 18.3. Vince scores 3.4 more points on 4.8 more shots. The difference between Manu and Vince from an efficiency standpoint is that Manu does not take as many dumb shots (though Vince is not a chucker like SJax or AI). Manu has always had the option of passing to TD if he doesn't have a clear shot. Vince has never played on a team with a better scorer than himself (JKidd was a better player but not a scorer) so he was probably forced more often to take bad shots. How much of that is the player and how much is the team is tough to say. Manu has a disadvantage in that he's never been able to play much more than 30 MPG.

[SenorSpur]

I think Ariza is the best fit because of his youth and defense. He can hit the three and can create his own shot. He is basically has everything that richard jefferson has, but younger and can defend. Maybe he can't post up like jefferson, but I will take that trade off.. we have a couple of players who can post up I'd say.

Couldn't agree more.

I love SJax, but he's been gone to long.

I'n good with RJ and love his skill level, but he obviously needs more scoing opportunities that he's getting with the Spurs. Also needs to play with a pass-first PG.

Ariza IS the choice here. In fact, he was my choice all along, over the summer for the MLE. He's younger, cheaper, and would integrate better because he doesn't always need the ball. He had the same role with the Fakers last year. He's already a good defender and would be even better with Pop's coaching. He's got a more expanded role with the Rockets, but hes not flourishing at all.

[rascal]

You said Carter had a better NBA career because he has better stats and more all-star appearences and I disagree with that comment.

I don't know about you but I would rather be an important piece of a champioship team than a stat padder for a crappy one.

If Manu and Carter switch places, Carter would have probably had the rings (I want to think that he's not that big of a cancer to offset Duncan's greatness) but Manu would have definitely had the stats while (I'm sure of this) somehow also making the team he played for a winning team.

Disagree. Manu was not the type of player that can make an NBA team a winning team by himself. You are overrating him. He cannot even log starter minutes.

[rascal]

I disagree with your claim that Carter has better overall career NBA stats. If you look at PER36 stats for both players, you will find rebounding and assist numbers to be very close. Manu gets about 1 more steal per 36 but also turns the ball over more. The area where they diverge quite a bit is on points. Manu averages 19.0 per 36 and Carter averages 22.4. However, look at FGA per 36. Manu takes 13.5 and Carter takes 18.3. Vince scores 3.4 more points on 4.8 more shots. The difference between Manu and Vince from an efficiency standpoint is that Manu does not take as many dumb shots (though Vince is not a chucker like SJax or AI). Manu has always had the option of passing to TD if he doesn't have a clear shot. Vince has never played on a team with a better scorer than himself (JKidd was a better player but not a scorer) so he was probably forced more often to take bad shots. How much of that is the player and how much is the team is tough to say. Manu has a disadvantage in that he's never been able to play much more than 30 MPG.

What is PER36? I don't extrapolate stats because that leads to inacuracy in the numbers because players play is not linear, it can vary as minutes go up for a number of reasons.

Playing bigger minutes also puts Carter ahead and has to play into the equation of who is better. You want your top players to be able to be on the court. It is not a positive making the claim that one player is better but he doesn't play the minutes that the true stars log.


If you cannot log the minutes because you wear down, thats not a plus.

[AussieFanKurt]

captain jack for me, he's turning around the bobcats

[DubMcDub]

It's gotta depend on what else the roster has. For the Spurs, I would say S-Jax or Artest.

[duhoh]

i'll throw in battier so that the perimeter guys don't have to worry about defending that hard themselves

but yeah, RJ/JAX/ARI in no particular order.

[mosdef17]

I was going to say Caron Butler, but I heard someone saying availability is a factor? If it is a factor then I think RJ or SJax would have been the best. Ron Artest would also have been interesting.

[lurker23]

If you were in charge of the Spurs this summer, which would you have taken? I have a pretty good idea on my answer but I want to see what others think first.

So, where is this promised answer from timvp?

[Johnny RIngo]

I don't see how anyone can justify the RJ trade now. He's a gutless coward that doesn't belong in a Spurs uniform. Any of the above players would be a better fit than him.

[DPG21920]

Spurs fans always have misplaced hatred.

[Allanon]

1) SJax
2) Ariza
3) VC
4) Artest
5) Dick
6) Matrix

[DPG21920]

RJ > Artest. No doubt.

RJ + Dice > VC or Ariza or Jax

[Johnny RIngo]

Can't believe there are 57 people that would have picked Jefferson over Jackson.