The defensive problems..

[HarlemHeat37]

So I've been trying to see where exactly the biggest drop offs have been with this team from a defensive standpoint..I'm not comparing it to last year, since that would be pointless, but I compared it to the 2006-2007 Spurs, which was not only our last title team, but our last elite defensive team..

I'm not going to point out all the stats, since it's pointless, but I'll point out that glaring differences that I've noticed..

While the points in the paint have been very similar to the stats that were allowed in the 2006-2007 season, the primary difference in this regard seems to be the INDIVIDUAL defense against the opposing team's PF/C..while the individual performances of opposing PG/SG/SF have remained consistent compared to prior teams, the performances of opposing frontcourt players have increased significantly from the past seasons..

-The Spurs are currently #23 in the NBA in points allowed to opposing PF/C..in 2007, the Spurs ranked #9 in this category..the 2007 Spurs were #2 in the NBA in opponent's FG% for frontcourt players, while this current Spurs team is 19th in this category..

-Another issue seems to be the points allowed from beyond the FT line up until the 3-point line..the current Spurs team is 28th in the NBA at defending this area, while the 2007 Spurs were 13th..at first I thought this might be due to more shots coming from there in the NBA due to more perimeter bigs, but the average attempts are about the same..I don't really know what to think about this one..

-This current Spurs team is 10 spots behind the rankings in SPG and BPG compared to the previous Spurs title team..

-The transition D has declined, which shouldn't be the case with more athletes on the team..the 2007 Spurs were 7th in the NBA in transition D, allowing 10.7 fast break points per game, while this year's Spurs team is 13th with 13 fast break points allowed per game..

These seem to be the main differences..the 2007 team was obviously better in pretty much all the defensive categories, which is evident in their #2 defensive ranking compared to this year's #10 ranking, but the categories I mentioned are the main SIGNIFICANT differences defensively(I excluded the 3-point % because it was a similar ranking just a few weeks ago and the defense still had the same issues)..

The transition D can be fixed with more focus and chemistry IMO, but the individual D vs. opposing big men seems to be the main issue..how can this one be fixed without a trade?..

[Muser]

Bruce is a big reason the D has dropped off, when he came in off the bench the whole team would play better D.

[TIMMYD!]

More effort. Anybody can be a good defensive player with effort.

[quentin_compson]

Interesting points, Harlem.

I still think that Dice will improve on the defensive end and be able to play more consistently the way we saw him play sometimes already this season. That should improve our interior D drastically, I guess.

[itzsoweezee]

So I've been trying to see where exactly the biggest drop offs have been with this team from a defensive standpoint..I'm not comparing it to last year, since that would be pointless, but I compared it to the 2006-2007 Spurs, which was not only our last title team, but our last elite defensive team..

I'm not going to point out all the stats, since it's pointless, but I'll point out that glaring differences that I've noticed..

While the points in the paint have been very similar to the stats that were allowed in the 2006-2007 season, the primary difference in this regard seems to be the INDIVIDUAL defense against the opposing team's PF/C..while the individual performances of opposing PG/SG/SF have remained consistent compared to prior teams, the performances of opposing frontcourt players have increased significantly from the past seasons..



I'm betting major minutes of small ball and Boner are almost entirely responsible for the poor frontcourt defense. If only the Spurs had some athletic big men . . .

I long for the good 'ol days when the spurs would play big guys and funnel the opposition to them to get smothered at the rim.

Now they play Richard Jefferson at power forward and Boner at center (when he's healthy). :bang

[Chieflion]

Bonner was injured for quite a few games already. The trend probably did not change. Quite easy to find a scapegoat like Bonner so to speak. Defense is a team thing and the Spurs usually play the face-up forwards one on one. Small ball is another issue. Using this to counter the oppositions's small ball would be good but most teams have tweeners like Jeff Green, Michael Beasley and such who have size and speed to beat the spurs at small ball when playing PF, so the points given up would increase.

[TD 21]

10th? According to Hollinger, the Spurs rank 7th in defensive efficiency, but barely. After facing the explosive Grizzlies offense tonight, I wouldn't at all be surprised to see the Spurs drop to 10th by night's end.

[SpurCharger]

It starts With Putting Pressure on the ball Handler... And Tony parker has played Sub par defense all year... if he picks up his Intensity on the ball handler, and Bogans, and Ginobili Deny the Wing Players the ball, then our Defense would Improve drastically........ Now watch Tony parkers defense, its awful.. almost every Person he guards can get to wherever they want on the court.

[HarlemHeat37]

10th? According to Hollinger, the Spurs rank 7th in defensive efficiency, but barely. After facing the explosive Grizzlies offense tonight, I wouldn't at all be surprised to see the Spurs drop to 10th by night's end.

I was going by bballreference's defensive rating..either way, it's barely, as you said..

[timvp]

Good stat work, HH. You should bump this thread in a couple weeks to see if the numbers are getting better or worse as the season progresses.

[spurspokesman]

Good stat work, HH. You should bump this thread in a couple weeks to see if the numbers are getting better or worse as the season progresses.

U beat me to it tvp

[HarlemHeat37]

28th at defending between the mid-range and 3-point line really makes sense when you consider how poor our perimeter defenders are, damn..

[anonoftheinternets]

28th at defending between the mid-range and 3-point line really makes sense when you consider how poor our perimeter defenders are, damn..

well, i think the spurs philosophy has been to make shooters take shots in this particular area. So you cant take that as a failure. We want them to take it because statistically it is the worst way to score (near basket = easy, and three pointer = high reward, long two is the worst shot to take).

But you might be on to something in the sense, we still want the shots to be contested, not wide open 2 ptrs (which players like dirk, and kobe or any other decent nba player would eat for breakfast). Maybe we are not contesting the shot "enough". But there would be many attempts from this area since we want people to shoot from there.

Or Maybe the game has changed, and far too many players make shots from this area and its too easy unlike before.

[HarlemHeat37]

Actually, there were more shots attempted in that area in the 2007 NBA season as opposed to this year if you look at the league average, so that's not it..

It might be the strategy though, I don't know..I'm just pointing out the numbers, and those are the main differences from a stats-perspective..

Obviously we have huge holes on the perimeter and next to Duncan defensively..

[L.I.T]

Really interesting stuff. I am sure that the FO noticed this, probably why they went after Dice and Theo Ratliff to shore up the interior post defense and provide ace shotblocking.

Keith Bogans and RJeff were brought into fix the perimeter defense.

To be pedantic and obvious, the problem now is that none of their defensive acquisitions (with the exception of Blair) is providing any sort of help. Ratliff is probably being saved for later in the season based on his injury history. In terms of per 36 minute numbers, his shot blocking has not declined and is right at his career numbers. I think, if anything, he needs more minutes off the bench starting now.

Dice has already said he's more comfortable coming off the bench, well and good and hopefully he'll start turning it around. They have been fleeting signs...

Bogans and Jefferson are not going to be get any better defensively. They are what they are. Bogans is above average, but he's far from a game changer. If any area needs to be shored up via trade I think it's that defensive guard position.

[EricB]

There isn't a big man available thats gonna immediately fix things.....

Camby wouldn't do it nor is he available.

Nothing out there that I can see.


Roll with what you got.

[Obstructed_View]

Missed long jumpshots = long rebounds = bad defensive stats.

[Ice009]

28th at defending between the mid-range and 3-point line really makes sense when you consider how poor our perimeter defenders are, damn..

I keep going on about the Spurs leaving people open at the 3 point line in the game thread. I am sure Pop used to get on people for that big a couple of years ago. Why doesn't he rip the shit out of people for it anymore?

[hsxvvd]

Bruce is a big reason the D has dropped off, when he came in off the bench the whole team would play better D.

But Jefferson was supposed to replace his defence... remember.:lol

[pad300]

There isn't a big man available thats gonna immediately fix things.....

Camby wouldn't do it nor is he available.

Nothing out there that I can see.


Roll with what you got.

Haywood would do it, but are we willing to pay? Washington can't expect to resign him with all the crap going on in the locker room, and they aren't even making the playoffs... so they may as well get something for him. Question is, what do they want back?

[DPG21920]

Can somebody show the breakdown of Zach Randolph's scoring against different defenders last night?

[cd98]

Spurs lack a consistent shot blocker (Duncan is not the same defender) and Bowen, who could be counted on to make the other team's top non-post scorer become a volume shooter (low percentage).

Tim can approximate himself, but no one on this roster will be mistaken for Bowen.

[spurs10]

Only saw part of last night's game, did Ian ever play with Tim? If not, I wonder why?

[blkroadrunners]

Only saw part of last night's game, did Ian ever play with Tim? If not, I wonder why?

He played w/ him a few stretches.

[#2!]

Hopefully when Bonner comes back (keep reading don't just laugh and move on) Blair and Dice won't have to worry about being in foul trouble and will therefore go for more blocks.


Of course, this also coincides with Pop's ability to play bigs more minutes in the second half of the season. With Bonner coming back, Dice rounding into shape (an admitted slow starter), and having to worry about Theo's durability less and less as the season progresses, Pop should be fully able to never have to use small ball in a disadvantageous situation.


Since it is Pop, small ball will still come up (and honestly putting our small ball lineups through hell in the regular season could really help our guys in the PO, after all the Spurs will probably face a moment when for whatever reason they have to go small against a very good team, and those players have to be confident in their ability to beat teams w/ those lineups), just hopefully not nearly as much.

[Obstructed_View]

Good points guys. A better equation that mine above would be:

No shot blockers + No Bruce Bowen = poor defensive stats.

[Bruno]

While the points in the paint have been very similar to the stats that were allowed in the 2006-2007 season, the primary difference in this regard seems to be the INDIVIDUAL defense against the opposing team's PF/C..while the individual performances of opposing PG/SG/SF have remained consistent compared to prior teams, the performances of opposing frontcourt players have increased significantly from the past seasons..

-The Spurs are currently #23 in the NBA in points allowed to opposing PF/C..in 2007, the Spurs ranked #9 in this category..the 2007 Spurs were #2 in the NBA in opponent's FG% for frontcourt players, while this current Spurs team is 19th in this category..

Fully agree.
I pointed that sat 10 days ago: http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3973963&postcount=47

When you compare this year to 2007, Spurs are allowing 0.1 more ppg scored by PG/SG/SF and 5.3 more ppg scored by PF/C.
It's hard to have a more telling stat about that weakness.



-The transition D has declined, which shouldn't be the case with more athletes on the team..the 2007 Spurs were 7th in the NBA in transition D, allowing 10.7 fast break points per game, while this year's Spurs team is 13th with 13 fast break points allowed per game..


Having Blair going after offensive rebounds doesn't help the transition D. I'm not blaming Blair for doing it because it's the right thing to do given his rebounding skills but it hurts the transition D.
But yes, Spurs had to play better D and it will likely come with the chemistry.

[dbestpro]

Points in the paint is a direct correlation from having too many players who are vertically challenged in size on the floor at the same time.

[Obstructed_View]

Having Blair going after offensive rebounds doesn't help the transition D. I'm not blaming Blair for doing it because it's the right thing to do given his rebounding skills but it helps the transition D.
But yes, Spurs had to play better D and it will likely come with the chemistry.

Better rebounding helps all around, but when he gets spotty minutes based on fouls or perceived effort, combined with small lineups of swings who don't rebound well, we all see the results.

[#2!]

Points in the paint is a direct correlation from having too many players who are vertically challenged in size on the floor at the same time.

soooo, small ball kills us when we overuse it? I agree, and appreciate your creative way of saying it. Hearing "small ball sucks" gets old after half a season of Pop not backing down from it even a little bit.



Better rebounding helps all around, but when he gets spotty minutes based on fouls or perceived effort, combined with small lineups of swings who don't rebound well, we all see the results.

I don't think our defense suffers as much as people think when we go to small ball, the problem is that the other teams bigs pick up easy offensive boards when the Spurs field wings at the PF spot. Pure speculation, but those extra points from bigs getting quick baskets off of offensive reboounds, and those rebounds most likely come during small ball.

[HarlemHeat37]

Well..it's not getting better..

Another defensive problem with the Spurs, which has a direct impact with the points in the paint, is the assists allowed to the opposing backcourt..the Spurs were #2 in this category in 2006-2007 and even last year they were #2, which had something to do with Bowen, even if he was aging..

This year's Spurs team ranks 16th in this category and it will surely go down after tonight's Rockets game where the Spurs allowed a ridiculous 27 assists..this coming after allowing Utah to get 30 assists..

The Spurs are having serious problems stopping penetration on the perimeter, and our 2nd big man defender is clearly having problems with his man..this problem CANNOT be solved with the current personnel on the team..

it's obvious that the Spurs don't have what it takes to play consistent D with this current roster..our perimeter defenders can't stop anybody and we don't have a legit 2nd big..we also heavily lack athleticism, as usual..this is why I wanted Pop to give Hairston and Ian a shot earlier in the season, but it's too late for that..

This team needs a trade for a legit big and a legit perimeter stopper..I won't get greedy, so I'll just hope for one of the 2..otherwise, there's not really any hope for this D IMO, and the stats back it up..

[HarlemHeat37]

BTW, to update the original stats, the Spurs have dropped 6 more spots in transition points and are now 19th in transition D after tonight..

[MaNu4Tres]

Or maybe Pop can stop with his small ball crap. Teams know Duncan's man needs to be setting the screens 100 percent of the time, which leaves the lane wide open.

The only reason why it worked in 2006 against the Mavs when we were in a 3-1 hole, is because Dirk was the one setting screens while Duncan was guarding Dampier and Diop.

[MaNu4Tres]

Pop has had a hard on for small ball since 2006 and it's hurt the team more than helped x 100.

[Spurs Brazil]

BTW, to update the original stats, the Spurs have dropped 6 more spots in transition points and are now 19th in transition D after tonight..

D is getting worst game by game.

I'd love to see Mahimhi playing all Dice minutes and Hairston getting some Jefferson's minutes. Too bad Pop won't do it.

Right now we're TERRIBLE on D. I don't think it'll get worst giving this young guys a chance. Pop needs to forget the names and contracts and plays guys who cares about D

[HarlemHeat37]

Small-ball definitely has an affect on this too IMO..apparently Pop thinks he still has prime Duncan and prime Bruce Bowen defending for him..

The lack of athleticism really is glaring though, you would think that it would be addressed..well I guess if you call addressing it by adding a 30-year old Jefferson that didn't play D for 2 years in a row, but did when he was much younger..

[murpjf88]

This team needs more than a legit big. Their more than one player away. Defensively, their a joke. It's going to have to be a blockbuster and I don't care who gets shipped.

[z0sa]

The system works, we know this. The personnel is the problem. Besides those ridiculous stretches of small ball Pop calls for even when the opposing team has solid bigs on the floor.

[MaNu4Tres]

This team needs more than a legit big. Their more than one player away. Defensively, their a joke. It's going to have to be a blockbuster and I don't care who gets shipped.

That is irrelevant.

If we were to attain Haywood, Pop would play him only 20 minutes a game, because Matty and small ball need their minutes to spread the floor.

Offense> Defense= new popovich philosophy.

[Harry Callahan]

I did not see the game, but the games I have seen they can't get a key stop anymore.

It's hard to watch this crew struggle when they have won almost 70% of the time for over a decade.

The nucleus is simply too old, too injured, or just worn out right now.

Duncan is really giving it his all, but TP and MG just can't get it done like they used to. The end of this core is fast approaching. Sucks.

The lottery may be calling in 2010 if things don't change quickly.

[murpjf88]

The system works, we know this. The personnel is the problem. Besides those ridiculous stretches of small ball Pop calls for even when the opposing team has solid bigs on the floor.

It's because the bigs SUCK!!! Mahinmi can't take over the reigns, he's not ready. Dice is just a monster mistake, Theo is offensively inept, and his defense is nothing special. So what if he gets an occasional block. They have no goto bigs.

[Sean Cagney]

I did not see the game, but the games I have seen they can't get a key stop anymore.

It's hard to watch this crew struggle when they have won almost 70% of the time for over a decade.

The nucleus is simply too old, too injured, or just worn out right now.

Duncan is really giving it his all, but TP and MG just can't get it done like they used to. The end of this core is fast approaching. Sucks.

The lottery may be calling in 2010 if things don't change quickly.

:( Damn reality bites.

[TD 21]

Small-ball definitely has an affect on this too IMO..apparently Pop thinks he still has prime Duncan and prime Bruce Bowen defending for him..

The lack of athleticism really is glaring though, you would think that it would be addressed..well I guess if you call addressing it by adding a 30-year old Jefferson that didn't play D for 2 years in a row, but did when he was much younger..

Athleticism and lateral quickness are not one in the same. Case in point: Jefferson. He's still possesses just a cut under elite level athleticism, but he lacks exceptional lateral quickness and because of that and the fact that he's clearly developed some bad habits over the years playing on losing teams, he's just a mediocre defender at this point.

You have to wonder, how much homework did the Spurs do on this guy? Or did they just think to themselves "we're the Spurs, under our tutelage and the fact that he'll be excited to be on a relevant team again, he'll instantly be a plus defender again"? I wonder, because Pop first talked about Jefferson being the stopper upon his being acquired, then by the fourth game of the regular season he already gave up (rightfully so) on that and hasn't reverted to it? That's telling.

The lack of a second legit big man who can start and finish next to Duncan and (it doesn't have to be an All-Star, just someone of starter quality) at least be average in most facets of the game is beyond glaring at this point. Pop would rather play small, tax Duncan and lose in the process rather than finish with McDyess, who was presumable brought in to do just that. Again I say, that's telling.

[spurtech09]

small ball doesn't work for this team

[Libri]

Opponents are averaging 95.58 points this season. This is the highest it has been during the Tim Duncan era.

This month, opposing teams are averaging 96. Even though the Spurs are scoring 100.95, they are averaging 98 points in January.

[Bigzax]

you can be real aggresive on defense on the wings when you got erasers waiting at the rim if your man gets past you.

with no bigs, i'm sure they've talked about protecting td from foul trouble.


free ratliff or trade rj for some defense or both.

[ElNono]

I just wanted to add that we featured RJ and Roger Mason(!) at PF tonight...
It's gotten so bad, sometimes I wish we still had Malik Rose around... :depressed

[Obstructed_View]

small ball doesn't work

[HarlemHeat37]

Athleticism and lateral quickness are not one in the same. Case in point: Jefferson. He's still possesses just a cut under elite level athleticism, but he lacks exceptional lateral quickness and because of that and the fact that he's clearly developed some bad habits over the years playing on losing teams, he's just a mediocre defender at this point.

You have to wonder, how much homework did the Spurs do on this guy? Or did they just think to themselves "we're the Spurs, under our tutelage and the fact that he'll be excited to be on a relevant team again, he'll instantly be a plus defender again"? I wonder, because Pop first talked about Jefferson being the stopper upon his being acquired, then by the fourth game of the regular season he already gave up (rightfully so) on that and hasn't reverted to it? That's telling.

The lack of a second legit big man who can start and finish next to Duncan and (it doesn't have to be an All-Star, just someone of starter quality) at least be average in most facets of the game is beyond glaring at this point. Pop would rather play small, tax Duncan and lose in the process rather than finish with McDyess, who was presumable brought in to do just that. Again I say, that's telling.

I agree with your first point, I was just pointing out that they acquired RJ for his "athleticism" as a defensive stopper, like you pointed out in your 2nd paragraph..

It's really starting to look like they didn't look into the RJ trade at all..

[MaNu4Tres]

I agree with your first point, I was just pointing out that they acquired RJ for his "athleticism" as a defensive stopper, like you pointed out in your 2nd paragraph..

It's really starting to look like they didn't look into the RJ trade at all..

A smarter move would have been a move for Kaman with the expirings and using our MLE for Ariza. It's easy to go back and wish things were different.

But the offer at the time was a no brainer move by the Spurs. Everyone who followed basketball agreed from SI to Yahoo to ESPN.

[DPG21920]

A smarter move would have been a move for Kaman with the expirings and using our MLE for Ariza. It's easy to go back and wish things were different.

But the offer at the time was a no brainer move by the Spurs. Everyone who followed basketball agreed from SI to Yahoo to ESPN.

If that was the case, then the Spurs could still do it. Why would the Clips take the Spurs offer then, but not now?

[HarlemHeat37]

I liked the RJ trade, I'm not knocking it now, it was a good trade at the time..as I said when he was acquired, I trusted the FO, because I watched the guy in NJ in his last year and heard about him in Milwaukee..he WASN'T a good defender during his last year in NJ and in Milwaukee..he WAS a very good defender in the years before that though..I said that I trusted that the FO believed he could get back to the defender he once was, which is something Pop even said multiple times..clearly they were wrong in this regard..

I'm not getting paid to acquire the players though..

[SouthTexasRancher]

Interesting points, Harlem.

I still think that Dice will improve on the defensive end and be able to play more consistently the way we saw him play sometimes already this season. That should improve our interior D drastically, I guess.


Sorry to inform you, but Dice is dead in the water, over the hill, all washed up, finished, finito, done!

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Sorry to inform you, but Dice is dead in the water, over the hill, all washed up, finished, finito, done!

And we get him for the next 3 years.

Lovely.

[z0sa]

And we get him for the next 3 years.

Lovely.

He'll surely retire before then. I'd bet on next season being his last.

[fotan2]

Bogans is the biggest redundance on the team. who is guarding Kobe during the crucial minutes? it's George Hill. If Bogans can't guard the stars of another teams,then why keep him? Plus, he is kind of the king of travelling the ball lately. Look back to the game on wednesday, he travels for at least 3 times as I can remember.

[HarlemHeat37]

He was an unnecessary signing too, which makes it worse..

[ElNono]

He'll surely retire before then. I'd bet on next season being his last.

That's what I thought about Finley about 2 seasons ago...

[ploto]

Spurs used to play more aggressively on defense. I think a lot is really about execution and trust. Defenders on the perimeter used to know that there were 2 big guys waiting in the right position behind them. When one guy helped on defense, he knew his teammate had his back, as well.

[itzsoweezee]

one problem is our frontline is playing particularly bad on defense. the lack of effort is the most glaring part of it. the backcourt is at least trying.

two, it looks like the players don't know what they're supposed to do on defense. i don't understand why mahinmi does not get more playing time. at least he knows the system; he knows what he's supposed to do when he's out there. that's pretty evident when he gets some playing time.

[Gooshie]

One guy who the Spurs could legitimately go and get who I think could really help Defensively would be Jared Jeffries from the Knicks. Now, his Offense is beyond terrible, but I think we all agree we would sacrifice some Offense for Defense at this point.

He makes $6.6 mil and has one year left on his contract, so the Knicks would love to give him away so they can be completely under the cap in the summer to sign two max free agents. I'm thinking an offer of Finley, Bogans, Hairston, and Ian would work (they would prob cut all these guys and we would have our pick of who we'd want to bring back). Knicks could also give the Spurs $3 mil (max cash amount for a trade) to help out with our luxury tax woes.

Jeffries is 6'11", 240 lbs, is averaging 4.4 pts, 4.2 rbs, 1.6 ast, 1.1 blk, and 0.93 stls this year in 27 mins a game. If you have followed the Knicks at all this year, you would know that since D'Antoni put him in the starting line-up and gave him extensive playing time, they became a much better Defensive team and started winning games.

The guy could guard almost any position on the floor in spurts - for us, he could guard the likes of Dirk, Odom, Artest, and Durant for sure. But then he could also see minutes on bigs like Gasol, Randolph, Aldridge, Kenyon Martin, etc... Finally, he could even give a different look on the Kobes, Carmelos, and LeBrons of the world.

I'm not saying this guy is the savior, but the Spurs obviously need to do something about their defense. To me, this is the most significant trade they can make which is realistic. The Knicks would surely do it so that they maximize their cap space this summer, I'm just not sure Holt would buy off on it because it would put us even deeper into the luxury tax next year.

Parker/Hill
Mason/Manu/Bogans(re-signs after 30 days)
Jefferson/Jeffries/Finley(re-signs after 30 days)
Blair/McDyess
Duncan/Bonner/Ratliff

[spurtech09]

no more small ball....thats when the spurs start struggling

[Chomag]

He was an unnecessary signing too, which makes it worse..

Hairston can blame that signing for not getting implemented and allowed to develop this year.

Hairston out played Bogans in every aspect in the pre-season. Yet still got the no-go behind Bogans.