Can any liberal or "Progressive"...

[da_suns_fan]

REALLY defend unions getting an exemption from "Cadillac" health care taxes?

So if I choose "Plan A" through my company's health plan, I have to pay more taxes, but someone making the same amount as me and chooses that same plan will not if they belong to a union.

Union members being exempt because Obama doesnt have a fucking backbone INFURIATES ME. For the first time in my life, I feel helpless as the government is screwing me over! FUCK Obama!

He seriously sucks.

[boutons_deux]

In the long list of fuckups in health reform, fuckups mostly dictated, even written, by health industry lobbyists, this one is not anywhere near the top.

[da_suns_fan]

In the long list of fuckups in health reform, fuckups mostly dictated, even written, by health industry lobbyists, this one is not anywhere near the top.

Okay, please give me a worse example.

How is this even constitutional?!!!! THeres now a financial incentive from the federal government to join a FUCKING union!

FUCK Obama.

[balli]

Yeah well. Fuck Americans. I hope he doesn't stop here. You people deserve the worst he throws at you.

[da_suns_fan]

Yeah well. Fuck Americans. I hope he doesn't stop here. You people deserve the worst he throws at you.

This was the response I expected from "progressives".

This big fat wet kiss was indefensible.

[balli]

This was the response I expected from "progressives".

This big fat wet kiss was indefensible.

lol, I'm not some fucking progressive. I'd just assume get this shit on for real. The level of hatred and loathing I have for humanity in general (red or blue), puts me a quite a bit left of the average dem.

[Marcus Bryant]

You people

[EmptyMan]

Fuck the Labour Party of america.

[Wild Cobra]

Anyone advocating such a thing is not an American. Maybe by birth or residancy, but not in heart.

[baseline bum]

Anyone advocating such a thing is not an American. Maybe by birth or residancy, but not in heart.

What's not American is being a cheerleader for companies who sell our nation out to China, like you constantly do.

[boutons_deux]

Banksters get special treatment, like money managers paying 15% capital gains rate on income they get from FEES (not risks of their own capital) managing Other People's Money. But the wrongies don't bitch about that.

Union bashing is nothing but another knee-jerk hot button from the right-wing, business-friendly/employee-destructive propaganda machine.

[Wild Cobra]

What's not American is being a cheerleader for companies who sell our nation out to China, like you constantly do.
You really show your ignorance when you state such things about me. Do you forget that I have offered solutions to stop such things?

Fuck you, and stick to the topic of this thread. Want to debate that again, start a new thread.

[baseline bum]

You really show your ignorance when you state such things about me. Do you forget that I have offered solutions to stop such things?

Fuck you, and stick to the topic of this thread. Want to debate that again, start a new thread.

Go fuck yourself and quit wrapping your warped views in the flag, you fucking retard.

[Wild Cobra]

Union bashing is nothing but another knee-jerk hot button from the right-wing, business-friendly/employee-destructive propaganda machine.
It's not union bashing.

Why should a union employee or employer get special treatment that a non-union employee and employers don't?

Can you say special rights?

[spursncowboys]

It's not union bashing.

Why should a union employee or employer get special treatment that a non-union employee and employers don't?

Can you say special rights?

The govt. workers (union members) have officially become a higher class to us commoners. What better way to create more democrats than to give incentives to join unions, and become dependant on the govt. Socializing healthcare will do both now.

[Wild Cobra]

The govt. workers (union members) have officially become a higher class to us commoners. What better way to create more democrats than to give incentives to join unions, and become dependant on the govt. Socializing healthcare will do both now.
You're right.

I had a brain-fart.

I forgot that demonrats have to buy they constituency, making democrats no better than whores.

[baseline bum]

You're such a partisan dumbass.

[balli]

Why should a union employee or employer get special treatment that a non-union employee and employers don't?
Because people should be able to coalesce and flex their collective willpower should they so choose. Just like their employers can always fire them if they feel that willpower threatening. Just like people can choose to stand alone and try their luck. But to quote Simon, there's nothing wrong with group actuaries.

Whether this is true or not, is open for debate.

My questions are-

Why on earth the OP would express surprise that 'progressives' could possibly 'defend' special treatment for unions? It's the status quo.

Why should people who have organized themselves and argued themselves into a better position in life, as a result of their group's efforts, be prevented from reaping their own hard fought oats? To deny them the result of their collective work and will seems awfully un-American.

[spursncowboys]

Because people should be able to coalesce and flex their collective willpower should they so choose. Just like their employers can always fire them if they feel that willpower threatening. Just like people can choose to stand alone and try their luck. But to quote Simon, there's nothing wrong with group actuaries.

Whether this is true or not, is open for debate.

My question is why on earth the OP would express surprise that 'progressives' could possibly 'defend' special treatment for unions. It's the status quo.

So you are ok with price fixing? What about cartels? I cannot understand why someone who works harder than everyone should get paid the same as someone who does the bare minimum. I also do not see where the incentive is for him to improve and advance?
I think the OP is surprised at how far the unions were exempt. Also Barry ran on a pretty conservative platform to get elected.It should be surprising to everyone how far left he has gone.

[Supergirl]

Do you actually want a decent discussion about this? Will you actually listen? Guess we'll see...

Some unions negotiated for so-called "cadillac" health care plans (which really are simply "good" health care plans, the kind we all deserve) in exchange for raises. It was a major concession on their part, and so it's a hard hit to ask them to scale back on these plans. But they need to, in order to provide health care for the rest of the country. What they agreed to recently was to do so, but to delay the date by which it goes into effect in order to give unions enough time to see their current contracts expire and and come up for renegotiation. This is perfectly fair. They're not getting off without being subjected to the tax, they're just getting time to adjust for it.

As for Nelson's agreement - he negotiated a good deal for his state. Perhaps you should elected a politician who fights for his state so well.

The health care bill will require sacrifices from everybody, which is why it's so hard to get through. But it is necessary if we want to avoid the current status quo bankrupting our country. The Democratic caucus is doing their best to negotiate the best deal they can for their constituents, while keeping the larger national goal of curbing health care costs in sight. The Republicans are simply being obstructionists, and refusing to actually do their jobs, because the status quo benefits the fat cat corporations who fund their campaigns.

[Supergirl]

Also, do we need a little refresher course on what unions are in the first place. Organized groups of workers coming together to lobby for their rights. Without a union, you have no rights as a worker. That's just the honest truth. And don't think employers are ever going to change that - they hold onto that power fiercely.

The answer is not to bash unions, it's to support unions and encourage more workers to act as a union, to fight for their rights.

[ChumpDumper]

Don't worry, the death panels will kill the union members too.

[da_suns_fan]

Do you actually want a decent discussion about this? Will you actually listen? Guess we'll see...

Some unions negotiated for so-called "cadillac" health care plans (which really are simply "good" health care plans, the kind we all deserve) in exchange for raises. It was a major concession on their part, and so it's a hard hit to ask them to scale back on these plans. But they need to, in order to provide health care for the rest of the country. What they agreed to recently was to do so, but to delay the date by which it goes into effect in order to give unions enough time to see their current contracts expire and and come up for renegotiation. This is perfectly fair. They're not getting off without being subjected to the tax, they're just getting time to adjust for it.

As for Nelson's agreement - he negotiated a good deal for his state. Perhaps you should elected a politician who fights for his state so well.

The health care bill will require sacrifices from everybody, which is why it's so hard to get through. But it is necessary if we want to avoid the current status quo bankrupting our country. The Democratic caucus is doing their best to negotiate the best deal they can for their constituents, while keeping the larger national goal of curbing health care costs in sight. The Republicans are simply being obstructionists, and refusing to actually do their jobs, because the status quo benefits the fat cat corporations who fund their campaigns.


Nice Kool Aid. People in non unions often choose which employer to take a job with based off compensation and benefits. To say that union workers give up more for their health care is disingenuous. The bottom line is that workers who perform the same job and are paid the same salary are going to be taxed at different rates depending on whether they are in a union.

As you said, the sacrifice should be required by EVERYBODY, not just non-union workers.

That was a pretty weak attempt and it says something about you that your "response" includes calling Repubs "obstructionists". You can call conservatives everything in the book, I dont give a shit. Repubs arent putting in special incentives for union workers. Im not in a union, I dont want to be in a union.

And I LOVE that you claim the repubs are doing this because "corporations fund their campaigns". As my favorite liberal, Arriana Huffington, already said, the lobbyists should have been Time's "Person of the Year" last year for the special deals insurance companies got in this "bill". In addition, UNIONS FUND DEMOCRAT CANDIDATES. THIS is why they got that deal, not because Democrats are looking out for their "constituents".

This is so fucking ridiculous and just shows some people will defend ANYTHING!!!! You make me sick.

[da_suns_fan]

Because people should be able to coalesce and flex their collective willpower should they so choose. Just like their employers can always fire them if they feel that willpower threatening. Just like people can choose to stand alone and try their luck. But to quote Simon, there's nothing wrong with group actuaries.

Whether this is true or not, is open for debate.

My questions are-

Why on earth the OP would express surprise that 'progressives' could possibly 'defend' special treatment for unions? It's the status quo.

Why should people who have organized themselves and argued themselves into a better position in life, as a result of their group's efforts, be prevented from reaping their own hard fought oats? To deny them the result of their collective work and will seems awfully un-American.

Give me an example of something comparable. Show me an example where two citizens get a different tax bill based on something such as whether they are in a freaking union.

[da_suns_fan]

Don't worry, the death panels will kill the union members too.

Tax bills arent a Palin invention to scoff at.

I was actually thinking YOU would be the one to try to defend this shit.

[Marcus Bryant]

The health care bill will require sacrifices from everybody


True, I guess we were warned about this as well during the campaign:

"Barack Obama will require you to work."

source (http://www.nelsonguirado.com/index.php/asymmetric/2008/02/15/michelle-obama-at-ucla)

[da_suns_fan]

This is embarrassing for Supergirl.

"The health care bill will require sacrifices from everybody."

Yeah, EXCEPT Union workers!! HENCE THIS FUCKING THREAD!

[doobs]

This is embarrassing for Supergirl.

"The health care bill will require sacrifices from everybody."

Yeah, EXCEPT Union workers!! HENCE THIS FUCKING THREAD!

Supergirl thinks everyone SHOULD be in a union. The government should be giving workers a nudge to join a union. You see, workers don't know what's good for them.

I mean, unions fight for your rights, man!

[baseline bum]

Supergirl thinks everyone SHOULD be in a union. The government should be giving workers a nudge to join a union. You see, workers don't know what's good for them.

I mean, unions fight for your rights, man!

You mean workers have no power without them. I find it hilarious that the right wants concentrated power in only one direction; that of the totalitarian owner. Can't have unions doing radical things like democratizing things for the working class. I can understand the hatred of unions from the elite and those brainwashed by the elite: worker organization is the only real defense against divide and conquer methods that work well for everything from worker suppression, to conquering nations in war, to sorting arrays. Split everything up so it can't coordinate and then crush each small problem with one's greater might.

[doobs]

You mean workers have no power without them. I find it hilarious that the right wants concentrated power in only one direction; that of the totalitarian owner. Can't have unions doing radical things like democratizing things for the working class.

Are you done making shit up yet? Do you feel better?

[baseline bum]

Are you done making shit up yet? Do you feel better?

Are you done being retarded?

[Marcus Bryant]

You mean workers have no power without them. I find it hilarious that the right wants concentrated power in only one direction; that of the totalitarian owner.

eh, no. Perhaps the strawman Monopoly man version does.

[Marcus Bryant]

Further, an owner can only be "totalitarian" to the extent the society and economy is not free.

Only in America could someone postulate that a majority of the workforce lives in hell. Yeah, the "average" (since we so love the mean in this country) American who works for 'totalitarian owners' isn't exactly eating mudpies as they do in Haiti. I mean, perspective. Damn.

And spare me the union fellatio. This grand free economy, for better or worse, is what has driven those workplace improvements. Now, yes, Americans are generally much more dependent economically and politically than they were, say, in the 19th century.

Then we have unions organizing against the state sometimes...man, can they both lose?

I know, don't piss on the great left liberal progressive Marxist narrative of history.

[baseline bum]

Only in America could someone postulate that a majority of the workforce lives in hell. Yeah, the "average" (since we so love the mean in this country) American who works for 'totalitarian owners' isn't exactly eating mudpies as they do in Haiti. I mean, perspective. Damn.


You call my argument a strawman and come back with this? Of course the right that has tried to kill worker organization since Saint Ronnie's time wants concentrated power only going one way. That's why they kill unions and preach the gospel of all government being bad, since it's the only thing the people have anything that could even be considered a vote in.



And spare me the union fellatio. This grand free economy, for better or worse, is what has driven those workplace improvements. Now, yes, Americans are generally much more dependent economically and politically than they were, say, in the 19th century.

Then we have unions organizing against the state sometimes...man, can they both lose?

I know, don't piss on the great left liberal progressive Marxist narrative of history.

Or the great right narrative that it was all free markets and not stolen land and genocide that made this nation wealthy.

[da_suns_fan]

Unions are pseudo-government that were created because government wasnt protecting worker rights. I understand why they were created.

But union workers dont have to pay the tax while everyone else does?!!!

FUCK OBAMA. FUCK THE DEMS.

[Marcus Bryant]

Yeah, obviously life is hell in this country for most, despite the general lack of union organization.

And yes, a market economy had more to do with that than the trail of tears. Or, turn off the laptop and return to the land if you hate it so.

[baseline bum]

Yeah, obviously life is hell in this country for most, despite the general lack of union organization.

And yes, a market economy had more to do with that than the trail of tears. Or, turn off the laptop and return to the land if you hate it so.

The laptop isn't a good example to use here, since the computer industry in America came about only because of huge money fed by the government into developing machines capable of cracking German codes in WWII and to develop ARPAnet. Our abundant farmland and our great store of natural resources doesn't owe itself to systematic murder of a people? (a people who were easy to destroy because they weren't organized and could be picked off one tribe at a time)

[baseline bum]

Unions are pseudo-government that were created because government wasnt protecting worker rights. I understand why they were created.

But union workers dont have to pay the tax while everyone else does?!!!

FUCK OBAMA. FUCK THE DEMS.

I don't like the idea of health benefits being tied into workplace compensation, but Supergirl has a pretty valid point that heavily taxing their health plans is basically telling all the union members to fuck off and accept a large paycut. A better alternative would be to get rid of the state subsidizing employer health plans with private insurers completely, so that unions and workers would have more incentive to negotiate strictly on more transparent benefits like pay and work hours. I'd prefer a public health system, but even one where the market decided things would be far superior to the clusterfuck we have now (and are fixing to get ourselves even worse into).

[Marcus Bryant]

Right. Obviously the incentive to invest and innovate was centrally planned for decades and the legal framework based on individual and property rights and relatively free markets had nothing to do with that laptop. Bad example indeed.

[EmptyMan]

The health care bill will require sacrifices from everybody

http://arikia.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/facepalm1.jpg

[boutons_deux]

"one where the market decided things"

The market will ALWAYS decide to clusterfuck citizens and clients, with the only restraint coming from government.

And market players will always work to make the market less competitive, less free, moving towards consolidation, cartels, local monopolies and exorbitant profits.

[baseline bum]

Right. Obviously the incentive to invest and innovate was centrally planned for decades and the legal framework based on individual and property rights and relatively free markets had nothing to do with that laptop. Bad example indeed.

I didn't say it had nothing to do with that laptop. I said the state-sponsored research did the heavy-lifting for it, so claiming computers of all things as triumphs of the free market is insanity.

[EmptyMan]

I'm glad I was raised in a world where you can out work your competition and not be buried under seniority.

Collective good. :lol Government collects the goods? So fast are people to vote for others to take money out of another's pocket knowing they themselves are too weak to reach out and take it.

[Marcus Bryant]

"one where the market decided things"

The market will ALWAYS decide to clusterfuck citizens, with the only restraint coming from governmebt.

And market players will always work to make the market less competitive, less free, moving towards consolidation, cartels, local monopolies and exorbitant profits.

The market only screws up when those made wealthy by it use that to change the rules to their advantage by buying off politicians to get rid of market competition

[Marcus Bryant]

And assuming no development without govt investment is not a given. Of course, those examples of govt success are often tied to the defense establishment, often given far too much credit in order to attempt to justify mammoth defense expenditures.

[da_suns_fan]

http://arikia.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/facepalm1.jpg

exactly!

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Do you actually want a decent discussion about this? Will you actually listen? Guess we'll see...

Some unions negotiated for so-called "cadillac" health care plans (which really are simply "good" health care plans, the kind we all deserve) in exchange for raises. It was a major concession on their part, and so it's a hard hit to ask them to scale back on these plans. But they need to, in order to provide health care for the rest of the country. What they agreed to recently was to do so, but to delay the date by which it goes into effect in order to give unions enough time to see their current contracts expire and and come up for renegotiation. This is perfectly fair. They're not getting off without being subjected to the tax, they're just getting time to adjust for it.

As for Nelson's agreement - he negotiated a good deal for his state. Perhaps you should elected a politician who fights for his state so well.

The health care bill will require sacrifices from everybody, which is why it's so hard to get through. But it is necessary if we want to avoid the current status quo bankrupting our country. The Democratic caucus is doing their best to negotiate the best deal they can for their constituents, while keeping the larger national goal of curbing health care costs in sight. The Republicans are simply being obstructionists, and refusing to actually do their jobs, because the status quo benefits the fat cat corporations who fund their campaigns.


Also, do we need a little refresher course on what unions are in the first place. Organized groups of workers coming together to lobby for their rights. Without a union, you have no rights as a worker. That's just the honest truth. And don't think employers are ever going to change that - they hold onto that power fiercely.

The answer is not to bash unions, it's to support unions and encourage more workers to act as a union, to fight for their rights.


You're such a partisan dumbass.

[baseline bum]

As usual, Viva has nothing interesting to say.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

As usual, Viva has nothing interesting to say.

not as interesting as you, yes. i'll give you that much.

[da_suns_fan]

It's not surprising that unions flexed their political muscle to get a special exemption, nor is it a shock that Democrats with no votes to spare caved in. But every sweetheart deal makes health reform, already unpopular in polls and hanging by a thread in Congress, look less like the landmark legislation it ought to be and more like special-interest pandering.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2010/01/debate-on-medical-reform-our-view-cadillac-tax-deal-for-labor-drives-hole-into-health-bill.html

[panic giraffe]

to answer the orginal question...

no.

it's bullshit, like most of this bill which seems to have a "any bill will do" mantra behind it.

it should have been single-payer or bust. what happened was that some politicians put their job security infront of their people.

although i fail to see what obama has to do with this.

reid and pelosi (more so reid than pelosi) should step down if they don't have the balls to get this done right.

[boutons_deux]

"politicians put their job security infront of their people."

no, they ALWAYS put their wealth accumulation first.

Like Wall St is an untaxed casino, and a market where products are sold without any city/state/federal sales tax, Congress and the Exec are simply unprosecuted bribery.

[DarkReign]

reid and pelosi (more so reid than pelosi) should step down if they don't have the balls to get this done right.

Not necessarily directed at you, but I think Americans need to understand that no health care legislation will ever be passed in this country that even remotely reflects the "best solution".

Too many interested parties, too much money. Reid, Pelosi, Obama...doesnt matter. It wasnt going to happen the way they thought it would, like it or not.

Its clear, at this point, that Obama is trying to pass something...ANYTHING just as a starter piece of legislation.

He will not go quietly into that good night on healthcare. Republicans know that, which is why they are vigorously opposing him. Once the "debate" part of healthcare is dropped from the moniker, America will be stuck with the program forever.

No matter how flawed, how expensive, how ineffective or how imbalanced it will be, it will never be taken "off the books". Ever.

Obama (and Dems) knows this. Thats why he wants anything passed that could even be called Healthcare Legislation. He is just priming the pump on this little fiasco.

IF this abortion passes, anybody care to guess the over/under on how many times in the next two decades it will have to amended? Rewritten?

No, this is just the shot over the bow. I dont want to use the analogy because it implies death, doom and destruction (which just isnt the case), but I cant think of another analogy...Congress is opening Pandora's Box and it will take decades of legislation to get the beasts released under control...because they will never go back into the Box so long as we are called Americans.

And that is what pisses me off the most. The Dems are playing with a very serious fire here, they know it, but their eyes are not set on current Americans. Its on future Americans.

Are they right? Dont know, dont care. No one will ever be able to sell to me how this is a good start to even better plan. Its shit from beginning to end, its drawn down partisan lines and I really want to know what the fucking fuck these Dems think will happen to their party when now until forever, they will always be associated with this...abortion. They are literally martyring their party for...this?!

This?!

Old saying...Choose your hill to die on wisely. If I were a Dem, this is not the hill I want to die on.

If passed this year, in two years the Dems will be out of power in Congress (both the Senate and House). Republicans will sweeeeeeep across all elections. An inbred monkey could win so long as the consonant on the end of his name isnt a (D).

Which, btw, is not good for America in any way. I say that because, like State Secrets, warrantless wiretaps and the Patriot Act, healthcare will be the new toy of Republicans who would be utterly blameless in its application, no matter how many times they amend it and change it, their party will never be associated with it.

Its typical corporate shadow games, really. There is no blame in the corporate world...too many variables, too many people in too many places. Thats why divisions are always being "restructured". Something isnt working, its hard to say what exactly, so an overhaul is needed as a hope to fix it.

New toy, same kids, same results. It gets broke.

This current government is your shining example of why dictatorships always follow democracies.

[spursncowboys]

The laptop isn't a good example to use here, since the computer industry in America came about only because of huge money fed by the government into developing machines capable of cracking German codes in WWII and to develop ARPAnet. Our abundant farmland and our great store of natural resources doesn't owe itself to systematic murder of a people? (a people who were easy to destroy because they weren't organized and could be picked off one tribe at a time)

Money doesn't supply the innovative thinking.