Is now the time unleash Ratliff?

[lurker23]

Next to Tim Duncan, Theo Ratliff is likely the best big man defender that the Spurs have. However, he's also the second oldest player on the team (Finley is older by ~40 days), and he's shown durability/injury issues in the past. So, the prevailing theory is that he will only see spot minutes until March, when his mpg will gradually go as high as 15-25 to provide better defense for the playoffs.

However, it has occurred to me that perhaps now is the perfect time to give Ratliff some playing time. He has looked good in limited minutes this year, but will the Spurs truly know what they have until he plays 15 mpg for at least 5 out of 8 straight games?

Here we sit in mid-January, with the team needing an injection of toughness and heart, and (with indications from HarlemHeat37's defensive analysis, http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144495 ) in need of some additional defense on the low block. Why not give him a try now, with Matt Bonner still out a few games? Why not give him a try now, BEFORE the trade deadline, so you have a better idea whether a defensive big is truly the Spurs biggest need?

If the move is a success, you give him another break in late February and early March to rest his bones, then bring him back in late March as planned. If the move is a failure, you know that another defensive big is absolutely a need, even if McDyess starts playing better. And if the move is a complete failure and the extra minutes get Theo hurt, then you get his injury out of the way now rather than in April when there's no chance of coming back at full strength.

I don't know if this is a strategy that Pop is likely to take, but of Ratliff is going to be anywhere close to a significant part of a championship run, I think you have to at least consider taking a mini-test drive now to see what happens.

[dbestpro]

Wow! The Spurs need to be saved by a third string center who has been a third string center for several years now. I guess if it worked he would be the Jim Plunkett of basketball.

[rascal]

Another young defensive big is a need. No need to play Ratliff more to figure that out. Ratliff is at the end of the line in his career now, no longer able to play big minutes anymore.

[AFBlue]

Ratliff to me has been underwhelming as a "defensive center" and his complete lack of an offensive game would have the Spurs starting out playing 4 on 5 on offense. I know he's much more proven than a guy like Mahinmi, but I've seen equal effort and ability from Mahinmi to block/alter shots as I have from Ratliff.

I know it's not realistic to expect Mahinmi to go from suit to starter in 5 games, but if they're looking for more defense and shot-blocking from the Center position, I'd much rather they look to Mahinmi than to Ratliff.

[lurker23]

Wow! The Spurs need to be saved by a third string center who has been a third string center for several years now. I guess if it worked he would be the Jim Plunkett of basketball.

The Spurs don't need a savior (assuming their stars decide to start playing like they're capable of). They need a solid defensive role player, which Ratliff can be when healthy.

And as much as I want Mahinmi to succeed on the Spurs, I personally think that ship has sailed. Once February rolls around, if Pop wants to supplement Duncan/Dice/Bonner/Blair, he is going to go with known quantities, which means either a trade for a veteran or a veteran from his bench.

[bless1187]

i don't get why there are fans that think that T. Ratliff would suddenly have a increased role after riding the bench for basically the whole season. He would only gets time if all our big man in front of him in the rotation gets in foul trouble or when its one of those games where everyone is playing really really bad.

[TIMMYD!]

Ian would be better especially if 'Dice is hurt. (Is he?)

[duncan228]

...if 'Dice is hurt. (Is he?)

McDyess has a pinched nerve in his neck, he's listed day-to-day.

[objective]

I'd much prefer Ian.

He actually had a decent game against MEM.

4 fouls, but 2 bogus fouls, and he also drew 4 fouls, including one just by him being held to keep him from running the court. He was able to handle Manu's pass in the PnR, and competed hard. He contested shots, and blocked out well.

He missed a jumper, missed a layup where he was fouled, and got blocked on a drive where he should have waited to make sure Manu's man cleared the paint.

Also, for all his foul trouble, he avoided his biggest problem. He had zero fouls for moving screens.

[DPG21920]

I would rather Ian at this point. See what you can get from him.

[blkroadrunners]

Ian has more offensive game at this point and runs the floor better, while Ratliff is an experienced vet. I'd probably play Ian moreso depending on the situation.

[exstatic]

The amount of choad-bloading here over Mahinmi is just sad.

[DPG21920]

How is it choad-bloading? Has Ian not shown enough to where you would rather see him over Theo when the situation calls for it?

[AFBlue]

The amount of choad-bloading here over Mahinmi is just sad.

It's a response to the "unleash Ratliff" logic, not an overreaction to Mahinmi's play.

It's simple...if the Spurs were to bolster their defense on the front-line and increase their shot-blocking presence, the Spurs have a better option than Ratliff sitting on the bench in Mahinmi.

[exstatic]

I'd think Haislip would be a better option than both, since he actually has an offensive presence.

[HarlemHeat37]

I wouldn't mind seeing either of them next to Duncan..

The annoying part about all of this is that we're in January..I have no idea why Pop didn't try Ian earlier..with Ratliff, I'm assuming they didn't want to wear him out, but they actually rest the guy WAY too much..I understand he's old and fragile, but that doesn't mean he should play 5 minutes every 10 games..he can handle more of a load..

I don't think either Ratliff or Ian will be the answer, but it's kind of ridiculous that Pop hasn't tried them out for extended time this season, AT LEAST just to see if the Spurs should go out and make a trade for a big man, as lurker pointed out..

I don't know what kind of shit Pop has been on this season..

[exstatic]

How is it choad-bloading? Has Ian not shown enough to where you would rather see him over Theo when the situation calls for it?

Frankly, no. He looks pretty lost out there. While he is a marvelous athlete, he just isn't a basketball player, let alone an NBA basketball player.

[Spursfan 87]

I think the spurs should at least try to get Oberto back from the Wiz.

[Thompson]

Oberto has heart problems, and he wasn't much more of an offensive option than Ratliff.

[TD 21]

Completely agree lurker23 and HarlemHeat37. Why hasn't this occurred? My guess is because it made too much sense. Bonner is due back against the Jazz, so don't expect to see Ratliff as a rotation fixture (if at all), until, as you say, probably around March. With Bonner out, it was the perfect time to give consistent, if limited, playing time to Ratliff (and Mahinmi), but unfortunately, Pop blew it.

I understand the idea of saving Ratliff for later in the season, but Pop so over does it with resting him, as if they'll ever come a point this season when Ratliff will be needed for 35-40 mpg. Presumably he was brought in to play the Lakers, Trail Blazers (with Oden and Pryzbilla done for the season, that's out the window) and should the Spurs get to the finals, whoever happens to come out of the East out of the Celtics, Cavaliers or Magic. Even then, how much will Ratliff be used against these teams? 15 mpg tops, I'm guessing.

I suspect at some point (though this could be somewhat predicated on match-up between Blair/Ratliff as the fourth big), the late regular season/playoff rotation will be (barring an injury/trade)...

Starters: PF- McDyess, SF- Jefferson, C- Duncan, SG- Bogans, PG- Parker

Bench (rotation): SG- Ginobili, PF- Bonner, PG/SG- Hill, SG/PG- Mason, C- Ratliff

Bench (out of rotation): PF- Blair, SG/SF- Finley

Inactive: SG/SF- Hairston, PF- Haislip, C/PF- Mahinmi

Expect the top eight to log the vast majority of the minutes.

[Bruno]

Going with Ratliff is quite a desperate move.

Saying that, if Spurs don't do a trade before the deadline, they will be in a desperate situation regarding paint defense. Doing a desperate move (Ratliff) in a desperate situation will then make sense.

For the moment, I'm just crossing all my finger and hoping that spurs do a trade in the following month.

[exstatic]

Completely agree lurker23 and HarlemHeat37. Why hasn't this occurred? My guess is because it made too much sense. Bonner is due back against the Jazz, so don't expect to see Ratliff as a rotation fixture (if at all), until, as you say, probably around March. With Bonner out, it was the perfect time to give consistent, if limited, playing time to Ratliff (and Mahinmi), but unfortunately, Pop blew it.

I understand the idea of saving Ratliff for later in the season, but Pop so over does it with resting him, as if they'll ever come a point this season when Ratliff will be needed for 35-40 mpg. Presumably he was brought in to play the Lakers, Trail Blazers (with Oden and Pryzbilla done for the season, that's out the window) and should the Spurs get to the finals, whoever happens to come out of the East out of the Celtics, Cavaliers or Magic. Even then, how much will Ratliff be used against these teams? 15 mpg tops, I'm guessing.

I suspect at some point (though this could be somewhat predicated on match-up between Blair/Ratliff as the fourth big), the late regular season/playoff rotation will be (barring an injury/trade)...

Starters: PF- McDyess, SF- Jefferson, C- Duncan, SG- Bogans, PG- Parker

Bench (rotation): SG- Ginobili, PF- Bonner, PG/SG- Hill, SG/PG- Mason, C- Ratliff

Bench (out of rotation): PF- Blair, SG/SF- Finley

Inactive: SG/SF- Hairston, PF- Haislip, C/PF- Mahinmi

Expect the top eight to log the vast majority of the minutes.

So, you just take one of the top 5 rebounding rate guys in the NBA and sit him? Really? At the risk of SnC's scorn...:lmao

[TD 21]

Going with Ratliff is quite a desperate move.

Saying that, if Spurs don't do a trade before the deadline, they will be in a desperate situation regarding paint defense. Doing a desperate move (Ratliff) in a desperate situation will then make sense.

For the moment, I'm just crossing all my finger and hoping that spurs do a trade in the following month.

How is it desperate? He was signed to provide length and rim protection against the bigger teams, particularly in the playoffs. He's shown he can still provide just that, in short stretches.

If you mean "it's not ideal and the team still lacks a true second big man", then I agree, but playing Ratliff is not at all desperate.


So, you just take one of the top 5 rebounding rate guys in the NBA and sit him? Really? At the risk of SnC's scorn...:lmao

I don't do anything, because I'm not the coach, which is why I said "I suspect". Knowing how Pop has operated over the years, in terms of favoring veterans over young players come playoff time and looking at what this team lacks on the front line (length, rim protection), I have to imagine at some point either McDyess or Bonner (though in his case, I hope not) will become the starting power forward, the other will be the first big off the bench and Ratliff will become the backup center. That would leave Blair, for all his promise and his solid, if inconsistent play, as the odd big out.

It is an interesting debate, though. Do you play the more productive, superior talent or do you play who helps your obvious weaknesses? Like I said, it could be predicated on match-up. For example, if it's the Lakers, then it's almost certainly Ratliff. If if's the Rockets, then it's probably Blair. If if's the Mavericks, then it's probably neither.

[Bruno]

How is it desperate?

It's sure that relying on a 37 years old player whose last good season was 4 years ago isn't desperate at all... :lol

[DPG21920]

It is desperate, but there are certainly other things they can try before they resort to that. Putting Hill in the starting line up might help.

But the Spurs need to make a trade. They also need to just play better. They have the pieces right now to be a much better team. Not Lakers good, but certainly much better than they are. I know it does not help with TP, Manu, Dice and RJ playing so poorly, but they should be able to elevate their games. That would go a long way.

[L.I.T]

If you're going to be relying on Ratliff to provide 25+ minutes of defense and rebounding, the Spurs are in trouble and Ratliff is in trouble. He'll be breaking down within 10 games.

If, however, we are looking for him to come in and provide 15 minutes of defense and shot blocking, that I think physically is doable for him. I have been in favor of more minutes for Ratliff for a while now. The only question is, if he's durable enough.

[TD 21]

It's sure that relying on a 37 years old player whose last good season was 4 years ago isn't desperate at all... :lol

Tell that to the Lakers, who are starting a 35 year old player who's last good season was at least 2 years ago. Oh I forgot, we're supposed to be pretend as if they're invincible.

Relying? I wouldn't say relying. Essentially, Ratliff will likely be the 10th man, counted on for 10-15 mpg. He's not as good as Mutombo, but if Mutombo could fill a similar role until he was 65, why can't Ratliff? As evidenced by his play this season, Ratliff's decline has been in large part due to injury, moreso than it has been deterioration of skills. He was never a great rebounder and always a subpar scorer. His strength was and still is the same as it's always been: blocking shots and protecting the rim.


It is desperate, but there are certainly other things they can try before they resort to that. Putting Hill in the starting line up might help.

But the Spurs need to make a trade. They also need to just play better. They have the pieces right now to be a much better team. Not Lakers good, but certainly much better than they are. I know it does not help with TP, Manu, Dice and RJ playing so poorly, but they should be able to elevate their games. That would go a long way.

Putting Hill in the starting lineup would solve nothing and only serve to further unbalance an already unbalanced lineup. This team generally plays with one center and one small forward and now you want them to start their only two point guards? It makes no sense. Bogans is far from ideal, but he's been decent in his role.

"Lakers good". I love how a team who's won one relatively unimpressive championship and has looked shaky throughout a lot of this season is put on this pedestal by so many, as if it's completely out of the realm of possibilities for the Spurs, or anyone in the West, to beat them. So long as the Spurs can match up with the Lakers length and not be completely overwhelmed by either Bynum or Gasol (whichever Duncan isn't guarding), then I see no (personnel wise, the officials might be a different story) reason why they can't beat the Lakers. More than anything, the Spurs need their personnel to start playing to their potential. Four of what should be their five best players are underachieving.

[lurker23]

Personally, I think most of you are underrating Ratliff and grossly overrating Mahinmi. However, instead of going off into some long-winded debate, I think I'll just say we'll wait and see. If the Spurs make a trade for another defensive-minded big man, neither Mahinmi nor Ratliff will see the court anyway. If they don't, then we'll have to play with the cards we've been dealt, and I'm willing to bet that Pop will call upon Ratliff more than most people think come April.

I think an experienced defensive player who has consistently averaged between 3.2 and 4.4 blocks per 48 minutes over the past 6 years would be quite the asset for this team. If you're relying on your 3rd to 5th rotation big to score points, when you've already got Parker, Hill, Ginobili, Mason, Jefferson, Duncan, McDyess, Blair, and Bonner/Finley, then you're in trouble either way.

[rascal]

Going with Ratliff is quite a desperate move.

Saying that, if Spurs don't do a trade before the deadline, they will be in a desperate situation regarding paint defense. Doing a desperate move (Ratliff) in a desperate situation will then make sense.

For the moment, I'm just crossing all my finger and hoping that spurs do a trade in the following month.

Good post. The spurs need to make a move to acquire another defensive big to give themselves a fighting chance in the playoffs.

[rascal]

Personally, I think most of you are underrating Ratliff and grossly overrating Mahinmi. However, instead of going off into some long-winded debate, I think I'll just say we'll wait and see. If the Spurs make a trade for another defensive-minded big man, neither Mahinmi nor Ratliff will see the court anyway. If they don't, then we'll have to play with the cards we've been dealt, and I'm willing to bet that Pop will call upon Ratliff more than most people think come April.

I think an experienced defensive player who has consistently averaged between 3.2 and 4.4 blocks per 48 minutes over the past 6 years would be quite the asset for this team. If you're relying on your 3rd to 5th rotation big to score points, when you've already got Parker, Hill, Ginobili, Mason, Jefferson, Duncan, McDyess, Blair, and Bonner/Finley, then you're in trouble either way.

So how many minutes you expecting Pop to call from Ratliff in April? If Pop is not playing Ratliff now it is for a reason and that same reason will still be there in April.

[easy7]

No, cause then the Lakers will unleash Kareem and the Celtics Bill Rusell, and we don't want none of that.

[timvp]

Playing Ratliff more isn't a bad idea. He's the best shot blocker on the team and there's no doubt his presence would help the defense in the paint. Another advantage of playing Ratliff more is that he could help limit the wear and tear on Duncan because Duncan won't always have to be the one protecting the rim.

That said, some of Ratliff's stats are ugly. According to 82games.com (http://www.82games.com/0910/09SAS14.HTM), the Spurs score 15.3 points less per 100 possessions and give up 7.1 more points per 100 possession with Ratliff on the court. Obviously sample size has a lot to do with those numbers but I'm not yet convinced his defense offsets his offensive limitations.

[lurker23]

So how many minutes you expecting Pop to call from Ratliff in April? If Pop is not playing Ratliff now it is for a reason and that same reason will still be there in April.

The reason is durability. If you try to play him 82 games, there's next to zero chance he'll make it. If you try to play him 15-25 games in April through June, he's got a chance.

His minutes will depend on matchups in the playoffs. Assuming the Spurs stick with the roster they currently have, I expect Ratliff to play anywhere from 0-5 minutes per game against the Mavericks, and as much as a steady 10-20 mpg against the Lakers.

[Bigzax]

with out a doubt. until someone else that can block a shot is on the roster, give Ratliff the starting job and about 20 minutes a game.

no need to wear him out, but i'd like to see him build some chemistry with the starting and finishing units.

we can talk trade when it happens, but until then it's up to Pop to use the horses he has in the stable. he helped pick them after all. we don't want excuses.

i think we all love Blair and he can continue to get his, afterall, TD needs his rest too, but i want to see some hesitation with the other team when driving to the hole.

i don't know if Ratliff can bring the defensive presence that we'd all like to see at the level we'd like to see it, but until there is a better option...i'd like to see him given the opportunity.

[Bigzax]

p.s. trade RJ for a SF that can play defense and hit a set 3 pointer...and do it quickly. if splitter is coming next year, our Spurs should be set at all positions except SF. RJ sucks in this system. we now know this.

better d in the paint won't matter much if we have a matador on the wing who's lost on offense as well.