Tim Duncan lucky?

[ChrisRichards]

See, I appreciate the man. He's definitely IMO a Top 2 PF in league history. I enjoy the fact that he has won championships and MVP's and the guy acts like he's just happy to be in this league. Its commendable to the highest degree and I will forever respect the man.



He's about to eclipse 20k points, while the other greatest PF sits at 36,500 point total (Malone, duh). Malone himself was also a 2 time MVP, a multiple NBA All teamer and led his team to the NBA Finals, twice. So his career is nothing to sneeze at.



Do you think if Duncan played in the 90's or a prime Karl Malone and his Jazz played in Duncan's era, Malone would at least end up with a title or two, while Duncan would probably end up with less than 4 (or 3 however you want to put it)?


I was arguing with a fellow NBA fan (Hardcore MJ led Bulls fan) and he brought up this theory that Malone is unlucky for having to face the best players in his era (Barkley, Jordan,Magic Johnson).



Do you people of ST agree that Duncan is just lucky facing inferior Eastern Conference teams to win those titles? (Cleveland, New Jersey, Knicks)

[duhoh]

it is what it is

[XFactor]

The Eastern Conference of the 90's was the Western Conference of today. To say Karl Malone had more competition than Tim Duncan is absurd. Ya he had to face Jordan's Bulls, but if you're taking into consideration the competition look at who Karl Malone had to face in the Western conference during his era. Which other big man dominated the West in the 90's Hakeem? He wasn't a great superstar from 97-98 the only two years Malone went to the Finals. All the Great big men were in the East. Patrick Ewing, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutumbo, Rik Smits,. Charles Barkley was a fatman in 97-98 and nowhere near what he was during the Phoenix Suns days. Duncan won championships the minute he got there, during his prime, and near the end of his years (2007) including a Western Conference Finals presence in 2008. Karl Malone didn't go to the finals until all the big dominating men gradually declined. Malone also got his MVP in 1997 which was very late in his career taking advantage of the slump of star players. I guess you can say Shaq was the only guy giving Malone fits. But remember he was in the East for most of the 90s. But look who Duncan had to face, a Prime Shaq, Kevin Garnett, Alonzo Mourning, Dirk Nowitzki, all whom are in the Western conference.

[ChrisRichards]

yes, but you're about to send spur fan into a frenzy. the competition level during duncans championships was terrible
And I agree, thats why i made this thread.

They swept a clueless Cleveland Cavaliers in 06-07 (Also had an easy run facing the Jazz,Suns and billups-less Nuggets)

They beat a one hit wonder Detroit Pistons in 04-05 (Had another easy road to the Finals beating the Suns and Nuggets again)

They beat the Nets whose franchise and existence is a Joke in 02-03.


If you look at all their opponents during those years, they only beat IMO one legitimate title contender...which is the Lakers in 02-03. And historically, the Lakers have always owned the Spurs.

[baseline bum]

Having to go up against Shaq & Kobe and later Kobe & Gasol is lucky? :lol

And the defending champions in 05 weren't title contenders? :lol

[badfish22]

it is what it is

+1. The pointless "But what if this happened!" threads get old after awhile. No one can tell for sure.

[ChrisRichards]

Ya he had to face Jordan's Bulls, but if you're taking into consideration the competition look at who Karl Malone had to face in the Western conference during his era. Which other big man dominated the West in the 90's Hakeem? He wasn't a great superstar from 97-98 the only two years Malone went to the Finals.
No but Malone faced Hakeem when in absolute beast.


That was the year Olajuwon won NBA regular season MVP, Finals MVP and DPOY all in the same season!:wow


That same team that beat the Jazz also won the NBA Title by beating the Shaquille O'Neal and Prime Penny Hardaway Orlando Magic!!!


Malone had to face a beast form Olajuwon and Michael Jordan everytime he's about to reach his goal.


And that other time (91-92) When the Jazz reached the WCF, they were beaten by a historically deep Portland Trailblazers (Who had a prime Clyde Drexler, who was considered a Kobe bryant in the early 90's!)

[baseline bum]

As for the originial question, no, I don't think Malone would have won titles in this era. He was a monumental choker. Watch him in game 7 of the 96 WCF or how he lost the ball and thus the game in game 6 of the 98 Finals... or his 8 point games when facing elimination in back to back seasons in 99 and 00. Malone had his shots and blew them.

[ChrisRichards]

+1. The pointless "But what if this happened!" threads get old after awhile. No one can tell for sure.
It gets old when you dont put your 2 cents in and post your babble. Its a basketball forum. Id rather post this than create threads like "Lol Lakers" "Lol Spurs" "Faggot mavs" "Pussy Dirk" "Lol Kome" " lol CP3 is a bitch" etc...get my drift son.


Having to go up against Shaq & Kobe and later Kobe & Gasol is lucky? :lol

And the defending champions in 05 weren't title contenders? :lol
Well that's why i said when Duncan and the Spurs faced a legitimate team like the Lakers, its an automatic loss for them.


And Im sure Malone and Stockton would rather face Gasol and Kobe than Jordan and Pippen, or a prime Olajuwon.

[ChrisRichards]

As for the originial question, no, I don't think Malone would have won titles in this era. He was a monumental choker. Watch him in game 7 of the 96 WCF or how he lost the ball and thus the game in game 6 of the 98 Finals... or his 8 point games when facing elimination in back to back seasons in 99 and 00. Malone had his shots and blew them.
He never had a shot when those boys in red were taking stage.


I think a prime Jazz with Stockton,Malone,Hornacek would easily beat the Spurs during their championship years in 04-05 and 06-07

[baseline bum]

Well that's why i said when Duncan and the Spurs faced a legitimate team like the Lakers, its an automatic loss for them.


Except when they beat them twice?



And Im sure Malone and Stockton would rather face Gasol and Kobe than Jordan and Pippen, or a prime Olajuwon.

What was Malone's excuse for choking in 96, 98, 99, and 00? 99 was supposed to be their year and he was worthless against the lousy-ass Kings!

[ChrisRichards]

Except when they beat them twice?!
Lockout does'nt count IMO. Counting 02-03, it was only once.




What was Malone's excuse for choking in 96, 98, 99, and 00? 99 was supposed to be their year and he was worthless against the lousy-ass Kings!
Late 90's and into the new millenium? Malone and his pal John boy Toy Stockton just got old son.

[Ice009]

Malone is a 1 time MVP.

Tim Duncan was easily the MVP in '99. He should have 3 MVP awards.

The Spurs had the same record as Utah and Tim absolutely kicked Malone's ass in every head to head match up that season. Everyone on the planet knows that Tim was the MVP that season. How Malone got it I don't know. It was one of those make up awards for him missing out to Jordan is the only logical way to explain it.

[Hooks]

Malone also got to play with one of the best passing PG's EVER. Duncan has had Parker who is not a passer at all.

[baseline bum]

Lockout does'nt count IMO. Counting 02-03, it was only once.



Late 90's and into the new millenium? Malone and his pal John boy Toy Stockton just got old son.

Revisionist history. The Jazz were the overwhelming title favorites, Malone the MVP, and Malone blew it despite Stocktons best efforts to save his choking ass.

[ChrisRichards]

Malone also got to play with one of the best passing PG's EVER. Duncan has had Parker who is not a passer at all.
Malone also never played with a HOF center. Add the fact that Duncan had a deeper team in retrospect with guys like Ginobili, Parker, a prime Bruce Bowen, Robert Horry and Stephen Jackson.



Revisionist history. The Jazz were the overwhelming title favorites, Malone the MVP, and Malone blew it despite Stocktons best efforts to save his choking ass.
Maybe, but I have reason to believe that the Jazz window of opportunity just closed on them years earlier . Everyone knows the Spurs with a hungrier and younger Duncan and Robinson were the team to beat.

I mean when Malone was a bit younger he spanked the Spurs 4-1 (97-98)

Similar to the 07-08 Finals. Everyone was picking them Lakers to put it up boston's ass, but realy basketball fans knows Kome and his Laqueers are up for a good beantown spanking!

[midnightpulp]

Go surf around basketball-reference.org, specifically Karl Malone's playoff stats and shooting percentages, and you'll see why Duncan is far and away the best PF of all time.

If you want to talk eras, Malone did a lot of his scoring damage in the high-paced 80s and early 90s. Today's game is much slower and more focused on the perimeter, with rule changes that benefit wing players. I doubt we'll see a pure PF/C lead the league in scoring for a long, long time.

[ChrisRichards]

Go surf around basketball-reference.org, specifically Karl Malone's playoff stats and shooting percentages, and you'll see why Duncan is far and away the best PF of all time.

If you want to talk eras, Malone did a lot of his scoring damage in the high-paced 80s and early 90s. Today's game is much slower and more focused on the perimeter, with rule changes that benefit wing players. I doubt we'll see a pure PF/C lead the league in scoring for a long, long time.
Malone was a much better shooter than Duncan and a tremendous fastbreak finisher.

Duncan is incredible defensively, but Malone was no slouch in that department, making All-Defensive teams a few times himself.

And the TWO times they faced each other in a playoff series, Malone's team WON and he neutralized Duncan. First was in 1998 in West semis, and second was in 2004 in West semis with Malone playing for Lakers this time.

I agree with the writer who said that if Duncan had to face MJ and the Bulls in the 90's, Duncan would not have beaten MJ either.

And people talk of Malone choking in the playoffs, but forget that Duncan had his bad games too, but had more teammates to bail him out. I remember at one first round game in 2003 where he missed two free throws with Spurs up by 2 with 3 ticks left, then Suns hit a 3pointer at buzzer to win it. And in Game 5 of 2005 Finals, Duncan had a bad game and nearly lost it for Spurs, but Horry won it with his game winnder in OT.

Duncan is tremendous but I still think Malone was just unlucky to a certain degree.

[midnightpulp]

Malone was a much better shooter than Duncan and a tremendous fastbreak finisher.

Duncan is incredible defensively, but Malone was no slouch in that department, making All-Defensive teams a few times himself.

And the TWO times they faced each other in a playoff series, Malone's team WON and he neutralized Duncan. First was in 1998 in West semis, and second was in 2004 in West semis with Malone playing for Lakers this time.

I agree with the writer who said that if Duncan had to face MJ and the Bulls in the 90's, Duncan would not have beaten MJ either.

And people talk of Malone choking in the playoffs, but forget that Duncan had his bad games too, but had more teammates to bail him out. I remember at one first round game in 2003 where he missed two free throws with Spurs up by 2 with 3 ticks left, then Suns hit a 3pointer at buzzer to win it. And in Game 5 of 2005 Finals, Duncan had a bad game and nearly lost it for Spurs, but Horry won it with his game winnder in OT.

Duncan is tremendous but I still think Malone was just unlucky to a certain degree.

No sale.

The Jazz were the defending WC champions in 98-99 year, and the supposed shortened asterisk lockout season would only have benefited a veteran team like the Jazz. During that playoff campaign, Malone shot a horrible .417 from the field.

In the 97 Finals run, Malone shot .435 from the field, and outside of one game, stunk in the Finals.

I can't think of any other superstar who has had the kind of dropoff from regular season to post-season shooting percentages like Karl Malone. The guy literally could not find that reliable jumper of his in the post-season.

The reason Duncan is regarded as the better player is because of his post-game. A great post game is essential for playoff success, something Malone never really developed to its full potential. He was very similar to David Robinson in that regard. Robinson was a regular season monster but could never get over the hump in the playoffs because he lacked a great post game. The Admiral also experienced a similar dropoff in efficiency from the reg. season to the playoffs.

I don't think Malone was a choker, just like I don't think Robinson was a choker. Their respective games simply weren't optimized for the playoffs. Athletic bigmen who lack post-games have historically crapped out in the playoffs.

[HarlemHeat37]

Obviously Duncan had some bad playoff games, every superstar has..

Karl Malone isn't looked down upon in history for losing to Michael Jordan, he's looked down upon because he was known as a playoff choker..this isn't breaking news, everybody knows this..he didn't have just a few bad games in the playoffs, he ALWAYS played worse in the playoffs, he was known for this..he was obviously still a great player, but nowhere near the same dominant player that he was during the regular season..

If you're going to shit on Duncan's titles, then you're doing the same for Shaq and Kobe's titles, and all 3 of those guys are clearly better than Karl Malone by a decent margin..

[BlackSwordsMan]

who has mike tyson beat

[rhyputa]

:rolleyes Yeah he's goddamn lucky, he should've been a swimmer

[Chieflion]

Obviously Duncan had some bad playoff games, every superstar has..

Karl Malone isn't looked down upon in history for losing to Michael Jordan, he's looked down upon because he was known as a playoff choker..this isn't breaking news, everybody knows this..he didn't have just a few bad games in the playoffs, he ALWAYS played worse in the playoffs, he was known for this..he was obviously still a great player, but nowhere near the same dominant player that he was during the regular season..

If you're going to shit on Duncan's titles, then you're doing the same for Shaq and Kobe's titles, and all 3 of those guys are clearly better than Karl Malone by a decent margin..
I was going to post this. I thought someone perceptive enough would know his main motive is to shit on Kobe Bryant.

[Brazil]

lol spurs fans falling into the Richards trolling with the backup of Duncansucks

[TheManFromAcme]

Like everything else in this game, some things are beyond your teams control especially regarding who you'll play and seedings. Irregardless, Tim will go down as one of the, if not the greatest PF this game has seen.

If you enter the playoffs and teams are depleted and/or injruies plague your opponent, that's the breaks. It has nothing to do with what "you" specifically did.
BTW, the '04-'05 Pistons were a formidable team. Thinking otherwise is nuts. The same team that spanked my Lakers a year earlier. Even with a hurt Malone we should have beaten that team but again, those are the breaks.

Hogwash, if you ask me.

[MiamiHeat]

every player is subject to this 'luckiness' so it evens out

Duncan is the real deal.