Manu back to the bench?

[stéphane]

Look at it this way, if all I wanted was individual accolades for Tim Duncan, I'd be pissy about his minutes being "cut for the benefit of inferior players." He's nowhere near getting MVP this year largely for this reason -- so it's valid, right?

If I really took this position, I'd be an idiot.
mmm well that's pretty accurate exemple.

[ChumpDumper]

You want more than u got last year?What would you have done between games one and two?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Argentina was never known for it's basketball until recent times, and most of the "bitchers" just want the best for Manu.

The Spurs were never known for being anything more than playoff chokers until recent times, I guess we should just write off those titles we've won, too...

[ALVAREZ6]

Look at it this way, if all I wanted was individual accolades for Tim Duncan, I'd be pissy about his minutes being "cut for the benefit of inferior players." He's nowhere near getting MVP this year largely for this reason -- so it's valid, right?

If I really took this position, I'd be an idiot.
It's not the same with me favoring Manu.

I want the best for the Spurs and Manu, benefiting both of them at the same time as much as possible.

There is one thing you are forgetting, the Spurs were the best team in the league with the traditional starters for the whole time that they were healthy. Does that not benefit both the Spurs and Manu?

[ChumpDumper]

It's not the same with me favoring Manu.It's exactly the same.
I want the best for the Spurs and Manu, benefiting both of them at the same time as much as possible.But if it comes to a choice, Manu first. You can admit it.
There is one thing you are forgetting, the Spurs were the best team in the league with the traditional starters for the whole time that they were healthy.They aren't healthy.

[ALVAREZ6]

Again, what do you think should have been doen instead of this? I don't need another cop out.
I already told you way earlier.

I said that I would have no idea, but I am sure that Pop's idea was smarter.

Stop waiting for an answer that I don't have a clue on.

[ChumpDumper]

Stop waiting for an answer that I don't have a clue on.I don't get how you can be so sure that this is a bad move for the Spurs whan you can't come up with an alternative.

[ALVAREZ6]

It's exactly the same.
No it isn't.

But if it comes to a choice, Manu first.
I do like the Spurs because of Manu, and I want his team to win. I wouldn't put either in front of the other.

They aren't healthy
What did I say earlier? I would be pissed if this change carried over into the next season, and next season, we will start out healthy.


You must have me wrong, I never bitched about Manu being benched.

[UnknownPlayer]

Pop 03/04: Our team plays better with Hedo as a starter, and that is proven fact.

Do you remember how it ended?

[ALVAREZ6]

I don't get how you can be so sure that this is a bad move for the Spurs whan you can't come up with an alternative.
Maybe you can't get it because I never said it was a bad move for the Spurs.

[ChumpDumper]

I do like the Spurs because of Manu, and I want his team to win. I wouldn't put either in front of the other.But you are. It's not a crime.
What did I say earlier? I would be pissed if this change carried over into the next season, and next season, we will start out healthy.


You must have me wrong, I never bitched about Manu being benched.See above.

Again.

If it's not directed at you, then you don't have to answer.

Until next season....

[ChumpDumper]

I indeed asked in another thread what everyone thought Manu would do if this extended into next season -- so that question is directed at you, Al.

[picnroll]

A little history for some. John Havlicek and Kevin McHale, two of the greatest players in NBA history, multiple title winners and hall of famers came off the bench as sixth men for a very large part of their careers. It's part of the reason they and their team, the Celtics, were multi-title winners.

I get the feeling there are some here that given a choice of Manu starting but no Spurs title versus Manu coming off the bench and Spurs winning the title, they'd take Manu starting. Thank God Manu's not the prima donna some of his fans are.

[ALVAREZ6]

If it's not directed at you, then you don't have to answer.

Then why have you been

waiting
for so long?

[ChumpDumper]

Your Manunite title is reserved for next season, Al.
I indeed asked in another thread what everyone thought Manu would do if this extended into next season -- so that question is directed at you, Al.

[UnknownPlayer]

prima donna? You mean Parker right?
Tonia Our heartless Prima Donna.

[ALVAREZ6]

I indeed asked in another thread what everyone thought Manu would do if this extended into next season -- so that question is directed at you, Al.
I honostly have no idea what Manu would do...it's a hard decision.

If it extended into next season and it was changed back to normal after a few games, he would stay.

If Pop planned this change permanent, then I don't know what Manu would do.

He could either:
A) stay and try to be a succesful team

-or-

B) request a trade (just like 99% of all-stars would) to another team so he can improve on his career, and be the best basketball player he can be, being the most valuable for that team.

[ChumpDumper]

so he can improve on his career, and be the best basketball player he can be, being the most valuable for that team.Why couldn't he do that off the bench if the minutes played were the same?

[ALVAREZ6]

Your Manunite title is reserved for next season, Al.
Your Ms. "I'm an annoying douche bag that won't drop a case" title is reserved for now, Chump.

[stéphane]

prima donna? You mean Parker right?
Tonia Our heartless Prima Donna.
when did he complain???

[ChumpDumper]

No one is holding a gun to your head, skippy. Feel free to drop out at any time and let the Spurs discussion on the Spurs message board continue.

[ALVAREZ6]

Why couldn't he do that off the bench if the minutes played were the same?
I can't answer that because that scenario hasn't occured yet, and when/if it ever does, we will see how Manu reacts, and Manu will make the best decision...and I know that he will make the best decision because he is smart enough to, and I will always support him.

[ChumpDumper]

I can't answer that because that scenario hasn't occured yetThen why did you give that very answer?

[ALVAREZ6]

Then why did you give that very answer?
Because I felt like it.

[ChumpDumper]

Because I felt like it.Welcome to the no-case-dropping douche club, douche.

[Athenea]

Manu just posted: "there is not such a big difference between being a starter or a bench player."

[ALVAREZ6]

Welcome to the no-case-dropping douche club, douche.
Or maybe I personally don't give a fuck about your opinion, and I don't want to waste anymore time talking about a case that has already reached it's main points.

So much for the:

No one is holding a gun to your head, skippy

[ChumpDumper]

Manu just posted: "there is not such a big difference between being a starter or a bench player."And this helps your "Manu must start" argument?

[ChumpDumper]

Or maybe I personally don't give a fuck about your opinion, and I don't want to waste anymore time talking about a case that has already reached it's main points.Your prerogative. One has to wonder why you "wasted" so much time in the first place.

[Athenea]

And this helps your "Manu must start" argument?
Chumpie...u r no competition for me... Don't make me look for last year threads and make u look more stupid as u already do. Coz boy...u were so wrooooong!!!
Peace :)

[ChumpDumper]

Are you saying you don't have anything to say about the past game and what you would've done differently?

Just admit it.

There's no shame in wanting glory for Manu above everything else, just be honest about it.

[ChumpDumper]

Don't make me look for last year threadsAre you saying Hedo would've played better off the bench? Manu played the same, even better off the bench -- so that can't be it.

We had no choice last year. You are acting like we have a choice this year. Step up and say what you would've done to adjust between games one and two.

[Brodels]

Many of the Argentinians and other Manu fans are making the same arguments in this thread. Lets get some things out on the table:

- Manu seems O.K. with coming off the bench for now.
- Manu has free reign when he is playing with the second unit. In theory, he should get even more shots.
- Manu wants to win. We only have one game to look at, but the starting rotation change was one of many adjustments that helped the team win. The move was effective, at least to some extent.

If the team is winning, Manu is still getting lots of minutes, he's finishing games, and he's getting lots of shot opportunities, I'm apt to believe him when he says he's O.K. with the move for now.

So if Manu is happy, then it's clear that most of the Argentinians aren't really concerned about Manu. They don't seem to care about what Manu thinks, how happy he is, or whether or not he wins. It's clearly not about Manu, because they would be happy for him if he is content and winning basketball games. If they don't really care about Manu, what's the issue?

It's certainly not team success. The team won and the bitching hasn't stopped.

I'm convinced that it's an issue of national pride. I really believe that many of the Argentinians see the change as some sort of diss tof their country. What else could it be? They aren't happy that Manu is happy, and they aren't happy that the team won.

It's a change that probably won't be permanent. It's working so far. Manu seems happy. Yet I don't want to be anywhere near this forum after game three if any of these three things happen:

- The Spurs lose
- Barry plays shitty
- Manu plays well

[ChumpDumper]

- Manu plays wellEr...he did.

[Brodels]

Er...he did.

Yeah, and if he plays well again, there is going to a flood of posts bitching about him not starting. That's all I'm saying.

[ChumpDumper]

Understood. All I've done here is ask the Manunites why they are so against this move. The only halfway coherent answer I've gotten is "because Hedo plays bad in the playoffs."

For all his idiocy, Al came closest to admitting the real reason.

[Brodels]

Understood. All I've done here is ask the Manunites they they are so against this move. The only halfway coherent answer I've gotten is "because Hedo plays bad in the playoffs."

For all his idiocy, Al came closest to admitting the real reason.

You're not going to get one because they aren't going to admit that it's really about them and not about Manu. Manu is O.K. with the move. And the team won. So it's not a matter of wanting what's best for Manu. They obviously don't care about him...it's either a personal or a nationalistic thing.

That's what it looks like to me.

[TMTTRIO]

I hate seeing Manu go to the bench but I really think it has helped the team. We pretty much weren't getting anything from our bench so they needed someone to save them. It'll be interesting how his minutes come out to. The assistant coach the other night was saying the problem will be getting enough minutes for him to play.

[Athenea]

Understood. All I've done here is ask the Manunites why they are so against this move. The only halfway coherent answer I've gotten is "because Hedo plays bad in the playoffs."

For all his idiocy, Al came closest to admitting the real reason.
1 number and 3 words
2004 Second round exit :)


Ahhh...and I remember Brodels too heeheehee :fro

[Brodels]

1 number and 3 words
2004 Second round exit :)


Ahhh...and I remember Brodels too heeheehee :fro

Um, what the hell does that have to do with Manu playing on the bench last game?

And why do you care so little about what Manu thinks? I thought you liked him.

[MannyIsGod]

Athenea is just crazy. Why do people try to reason with somebody who obviously has a fatal attraction?

[Brodels]

Athenea is just crazy. Why do people try to reason with somebody who obviously has a fatal attraction?

True. I'm done with that.

[T Park]

This IMO might go down as a fantastic move up there with

Jackson for Smith

and Elie for Jackson


in the starting lineups.


The funny thing, it was one player replacing another cause the starter had stunk.

This time, its for the bench player's confidence.

IMO, keep it, and ride the wave, Barry has proven, with the big minutes, and playing with Duncan, Bowen, Mohammed/Nesterovic, that he can put up good size numbers.


I hope saturday night, he not only gets 3s, but he cuts to the basket for some easy layups, cause IMO, he is the best finisher at the rim on the team.

[Phonzie20]

Who is this Manu guy?

[Athenea]

Athenea is just crazy. Why do people try to reason with somebody who obviously has a fatal attraction?
Typical chauvinist comment...go figure... :spin

[Phonzie20]

Typical chauvinist comment...go figure... :spin

I didn't read into that.

spin away baby...

[E20]

In other matters regarding Ginobili, he really needs a hair cut. The pic on my avatar is the best way Ginobili should have his hair. What about you guys?

[smeagol]

I would love for Manu to start. That being said, if him coming of the bench, provided he plays +30 mpg and the entire 4th Qs, is the reason the Spurs win the championship, I'm all for the move.

I would not like to see this as a permanent move, though.

Note to Pop: Please, stop bringing dudes who need to be pampered to perform.

Now, to all those people who say that coming off the bench is the same as starting, provided that you play the same minutes, blah, blah, fucking-blah . . . guess what . . . ITS NOT!

If it were, the 6 MOY award would be as prestigious as the MVP award.

Manu has proven once again the class act he really is. Not many AS would've accepted this move, and be supportive as he has been. He has posted twice in his website about how he is OK with it.

SA fans are fucking lucky to have him in their roster. I can't believe there are some ungrateful fucks who still bash him (sequ, although it appears that even in his Manu-bashing he is a phony) or want to trade him (Mr Pitiful himself, rascal).

A: I like you and I admire how you stick up for Manu, specially with chump, who said "Hedo>Manu" and now, every time whottt, or yourself, remind of that thread, he dances in circles, and makes up qualifications about his statements. Not one has he shown the cojones to say, "I admit it, I was wrong". I hope timvp could bump that thread just for laughs.

But A, after reading what Manu had to say about the move, I believe its time to drop the subject.

Shoog: Yes there is a Church of Manu because the guy is a national hero. This is a concept that Americans who follow basketball might not be familiar with. Some of you guys even rooted against your National Team in the Olympics (don't try to explain it because its fucking unbelievable).

Maybe there is something to be learned about how Athenea and the other Argentines defend Manu.

[smeagol]

IMO, keep it, and ride the wave, Barry has proven, with the big minutes, and playing with Duncan, Bowen, Mohammed/Nesterovic, that he can put up good size numbers.
Sorry to bust your bubble.

It was only one game.

I too hope he can keep it up. But you need to have some perspective.

[T Park]

Actually Smeagol if you wouldve watched game 1 this year, you would've noticed that, the Numbers for Barry when he started, were awesome.


I do have perspective, he can keep it up.


Get your tounge off of Ginobili's boots.

[MannyIsGod]

Typical chauvinist comment...go figure... :spin
There's nothing chauvinist about me pointing out that you are the strongest opponent of reason in this debate.

[ChumpDumper]

Not one has he shown the cojones to say, "I admit it, I was wrong".I have said over and over again the Spurs made the right choice between the two. Had I actuially said Hedo > Manu at that time, I would've been wrong wrong wrong wrong. If you want to crucify me for seeing value in Hedo's game and seeing potential in him based on his talent and improvement during his tenure with the Spurs, go right ahead. I was wrong for even thinking Hedo could possibly be better than Manu in the course of his career because I made the mistake of thinking Hedo gave a shit. If you can't accept that, that's your problem.

Now if ANY of you Argentinians would admit that your only beef with this move is because it hurts your national pride, I would respect that. Why can't any of you come out and say it?

There certainly haven't been any basketball-related reasons that could possibly apply to this season.

[Rick Von Braun]

Athenea is just crazy. Why do people try to reason with somebody who obviously has a fatal attraction? You better pray that Jess does not see that comment http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif

[Guru of Nothing]

Maybe there is something to be learned about how Athenea and the other Argentines defend Manu.

Yeah, we have an expression for it - There's a tear in your beer.

[ChumpDumper]

Maybe there is something to be learned about how Athenea and the other Argentines defend Manu.They aren't defending Manu. They are defending the status of being a starter and the vicarious pride they feel from that status. This is the only thing that would be different.

[T Park]

Or

"stalker"

[MannyIsGod]

Uh, why? Jess was here when I was posting it. I'm the object of her affection (thankfully), that would be Manu.

[Phonzie20]

:(

[smeagol]

Get your tounge off of Ginobili's boots.
My comment had nothing to do with having or not having my tongue on Ginobili's boots. Did you read my first post, or was it too long for you reading comprehension skills?

I said I favor the move.

Barry started on how many games? You think the sample is big enough to draw conclusions?

[ShoogarBear]

Shoog: Yes there is a Church of Manu because the guy is a national hero. This is a concept that Americans who follow basketball might not be familiar with. Some of you guys even rooted against your National Team in the Olympics (don't try to explain it because its fucking unbelievable).
No, it's quite easy to explain. It basically boils down to some Americans' feelings that nobody on the 2004 US Olympic team "looked" like what a "real American" should look like.

But don't say we're not familiar with the concept of blind, unrepentant jingoism. You don't want to even start trying to compete with us on that score.



Maybe there is something to be learned about how Athenea and the other Argentines defend Manu. Exactly how is Manu being "defended"? Defended from WHAT? Who's attacking him? The only ones being attacked in this thread are Pop, Tony, Barry, and poor Hedo.

What's becoming clear is that the Church of Manu doesn't really give a shit about what happens to the Spurs as long as he gets his stats.

[smeagol]

I have said over and over again the Spurs made the right choice between the two. Had I actuially said Hedo > Manu at that time, I would've been wrong wrong wrong wrong. If you want to crucify me for seeing value in Hedo's game and seeing potential in him based on his talent and improvement during his tenure with the Spurs, go right ahead. I was wrong for even thinking Hedo could possibly be better than Manu in the course of his career because I made the mistake of thinking Hedo gave a shit. If you can't accept that, that's your problem.
Blah, blah, blah . . . spin, spin, spin.

I hope someone count bump the famous thread, so this argument could be settled once and for all.


Now if ANY of you Argentinians would admit that your only beef with this move is because it hurts your national pride, I would respect that. Why can't any of you come out and say it?.
Again, for the record. I favor the move if it makes the team better. I would not like Manu coming of the bench for the rest of his days, though.

As for what my fellow countrymen are thinking or feeling regarding the move, I don't think it has to do with pride. It proly has to do with liking the player more than the team.

[stéphane]

But don't say we're not familiar with the concept of blind, unrepentant jingoism. You don't want to even start trying to compete with us on that score.
:lol :lol :lol
can France compete?

[timvp]

Since I began advocating Barry in the starting lineup over Manu, I've encountered how fans of Manu think going to the bench is a demotion. I've tried to explain that it's just a basketball move and has nothing to do with poor play on Manu's part -- but that doesn't seem to do any convincing.

I've come to the conclusion that coming off the bench has a negative conotation in places outside the US. Here, it's not really that big of a deal as long as you get the same number of minutes. I presume in other places, it's some sort of sign of respect.

I respect the fans of Manu, especially the Argentines. May the Spurs win and Manu play well.

Believe.

[stéphane]

I've come to the conclusion that coming off the bench has a negative conotation in places outside the US. Here, it's not really that big of a deal as long as you get the same number of minutes. I presume in other places, it's some sort of sign of respect.
sorry doesn't have a bad conotation here... :rolleyes

[timvp]

sorry doesn't have a bad conotation here... :rolleyes

Noted.

But then again, how many Spurs fans from France post here? I can count the number on one hand. And honestly, that has always shocked me. France has like twice the population of Argentina and Tony Parker has been with the team longer, but the French don't support him to the same degree as the Argentines support Manu.

Argentines live and die by the play of Manu. The French don't care enough to contribute here in regards to Parker.

Why is that?

QUESTION.



P.S.

Don't get me started on how much Slovenians care about Beno and Rasho or how even New Zealanders care about Sean Marks.

[ChumpDumper]

Blah, blah, blah . . . spin, spin, spin.I said I was wrong. What more do you want?
Again, for the record. I favor the move if it makes the team better. I would not like Manu coming of the bench for the rest of his days, though.

As for what my fellow countrymen are thinking or feeling regarding the move, I don't think it has to do with pride. It proly has to do with liking the player more than the team.At least you're close to being honest after being asked point blank 10 times. Congratulations. Once you get to thinking why you like Manu first, his being from the same country as you might well have something to do with it.

[Phonzie20]

I said I was wrong. What more do you want?At least you're close to being honest after being asked point blank 10 times. Congratulations. Once you get to thinking why you like Manu first, his being from the same country as you might well have something to do with it.

nice!

[smeagol]

No, it's quite easy to explain. It basically boils down to some Americans' feelings that nobody on the 2004 US Olympic team "looked" like what a "real American" should look like.
What's wrong with Timmy, Wade, Marion, James, Marbury to name a few? I can understand people not liking AI (although he was a great leader in that team) or Melo, but not liking ANYBODY?

I still don't understand how somebody cannopt root for their own Natinoal Team.



Exactly how is Manu being "defended"? Defended from WHAT? Who's attacking him? The only ones being attacked in this thread are Pop, Tony, Barry, and poor Hedo.
They are defending Manu's position as a starter.


What's becoming clear is that the Church of Manu doesn't really give a shit about what happens to the Spurs as long as he gets his stats.
Not true.

The "Church of Manu" firmly believes that if Manu plays well, the Spurs win . . if Manu excels, the Spurs win it all.

[ChumpDumper]

They are defending Manu's position as a starter.But not Manu himself. There is an enormous difference.
The "Church of Manu" firmly believes that if Manu plays well, the Spurs win . . if Manu excels, the Spurs win it all.Manu played well against the Lakers last year.

[smeagol]

I said I was wrong. What more do you want?
I want you to fall down on you knees and beg for forgiveness :spin

[smeagol]

Manu played well against the Lakers last year.
I'll rephrase. If manu plays well, a lot of the times, the Spurs win. Against the lakers, Manu did OK but, as a whole, not that great.

[ChumpDumper]

If manu plays well, a lot of the times, the Spurs win.That's a bit ambiguous for an article of faith, but faith on the whole is a good thing.

[ShoogarBear]

What's wrong with Timmy, Wade, Marion, James, Marbury to name a few? I can understand people not liking AI (although he was a great leader in that team) or Melo, but not liking ANYBODY?

I still don't understand how somebody cannopt root for their own Natinoal Team.
Sorry, I was probably being too cute if English is not your first language.

More bluntly, some people wanted them to lose because it was the first all-black Olympic basketball team.

[ShoogarBear]

Argentines live and die by the play of Manu. The French don't care enough to contribute here in regards to Parker.

Why is that?

Here's how you piss stéphane off:

California wines > French wines



Don't get me started on how much Slovenians care about Beno and Rasho or how even New Zealanders care about Sean Marks. But they at least seem to have adjusted to the possibility that their countrymen may not necessarily be The Greatest Players Who Ever Walked The Face Of The Earth.

[smeagol]

That's a bit ambiguous for an article of faith, but faith on the whole is a good thing.
Yes Faith has something to do with it. If Faith was not involved, we would not be a Church, would we?

[smeagol]

But they at least seem to have adjusted to the possibility that their countrymen may not necessarily be The Greatest Players Who Ever Walked The Face Of The Earth.
Not my case, Shoog. I know Manu's limitations. He is the best player Argentina has ever produced, that's for sure.

And I also know SA is damn lucky to have him in his roster.

[T Park]

More bluntly, some people wanted them to lose because it was the first all-black Olympic basketball team.

Bull fucking shit.

[ShoogarBear]

I thought Delfino was the best player Argentina has ever produced.

:lol

[Das Texan]

Argentines live and die by the play of Manu. The French don't care enough to contribute here in regards to Parker.

Why is that?

QUESTION.






because the french dont give a fuck?


who the hell knows really.

[ChumpDumper]

[deleted]

[MannyIsGod]

California wines > French wines

:lol

Actually, for the price....

Argentinian (good Malbecs), Chilean, and even Texas wine beat both. :lol

[smeagol]

I thought Delfino was the best player Argentina has ever produced.

:lol
Delfino is talanted but he has to grow up.

Nocioni can be a beast at times.

[Athenea]

Uh, why? Jess was here when I was posting it. I'm the object of her affection (thankfully), that would be Manu.
Don't worry..I'd only touch u w/my katana....and not in a good way :)

[ChumpDumper]

Something was lost in the translation.

[MannyIsGod]

I see they have video games down in Argentina. Tell me, how has Ninja Gaiden gone for you?

http://dorando.emuverse.com/images/ninja-gaiden-trilogy_02.png

[Athenea]

But they at least seem to have adjusted to the possibility that their countrymen may not necessarily be The Greatest Players Who Ever Walked The Face Of The Earth.
I can't believe u actually think I'm that blind...bad shoo bad
I'm against the move. It's philosophical.
Again Pop is failing at addressing to the real flaws in his system. Whenever he feels in danger he draws back all the offensive evolution made during the season. To sum up:
TD+slasher/penetrator+3pt shooter= early exit
4-donw no matter how (even if TD is not 100%) and that's it.
This move is like a smoke curtain...and once the smoke fades away I truly hopes that the outcome is different from last season.

[Athenea]

Something was lost in the translation.
Get a japanese dictionary, bakkero.

[T Park]

athenea.

You are making no sense.

Let me guess, you think Ginobili should get the majority of the touches, and Duncan should get less, and the offense should revolve around Ginobili.

[ChumpDumper]

TD+slasher/penetrator+3pt shooter= early exitIf the 3pt shooters suck, yes. Barry didn't suck last game. And TD+slasher/penetrator+slasher/penetrator= 17 missed shots in the 4th. Which was better?

I still have yet to see what your alternative would've been.

[Athenea]

Nope. I think the perfect mix of 4-down, motion offense and pick'n roll is the answer.

[ChumpDumper]

Get a japanese dictionary, bakkero.No, in your anime fog you mistook to whom the "stalker" comment was directed.

It was you.

Hope that helps.

[Athenea]

You live by the 3, u die by the 3...u should know better by now...

[T Park]

[QUOTE]perfect mix of 4-down, motion offense and pick'n roll is the answer.[QUOTE]


That is what they did in game 2.

WTF!?!?!??

[T Park]

You live by the 3, u die by the 3.

Except the Spurs didn't live and die by the three last night.

COME THE FUCK ON!!!!!

[ChumpDumper]

You live by the 3, u die by the 3...u should know better by now.If you don't have an outside shot, the opposition can pack the lane, cut off the drivers and mug Duncan. After every loss to the Lakers, u should know better by now.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

can France compete?

You are nowhere near us! Just look at this thread!


Since I began advocating Barry in the starting lineup over Manu, I've encountered how fans of Manu think going to the bench is a demotion. I've tried to explain that it's just a basketball move and has nothing to do with poor play on Manu's part -- but that doesn't seem to do any convincing.

I've come to the conclusion that coming off the bench has a negative conotation in places outside the US. Here, it's not really that big of a deal as long as you get the same number of minutes. I presume in other places, it's some sort of sign of respect.

I respect the fans of Manu, especially the Argentines. May the Spurs win and Manu play well.

Believe.

Not really. In the Argentinian National League players get benched or removed from their starter positions all the time. As a matter of fact, there is a lot less whinning than in the NBA or Europe, because it is not a fully professional league. Guys like Manu, Nocioni, the whole Olympic team, didn't start making real money until they moved to Europe.

This is seen as the unfair thing to do (from many Argentinian posters here, I don't share that view). Because it is usually Manu the one that gets benched. But in my opinion the important thing are his minutes (he definitely can play 35mpg), his contribution to the team to win, and his attitude, because he can fill in so many roles.


Noted.

But then again, how many Spurs fans from France post here? I can count the number on one hand. And honestly, that has always shocked me. France has like twice the population of Argentina and Tony Parker has been with the team longer, but the French don't support him to the same degree as the Argentines support Manu.

Argentines live and die by the play of Manu. The French don't care enough to contribute here in regards to Parker.

Why is that?

QUESTION.


First, Argentina has a bigger tradition in Basketball than France. Argentina won the First World Championship back in 1950. That generation was wasted by political reasons in the Olympics, and since the 1960's the standard became pretty low. Then in the 80's it raised back again, with the creation of a National Leauge that planted the seeds for the current state of things. The current state of the Argentinian basketball it's the best ever in its history, so it's quite expectable that more and more Argentinians will want to discuss it.

Also, Argentinians are way more passionate than French. Sometimes this mindset (or mindfuck, depending the moment :lol ) leads us into blind faith. The average French is more rational than the average Argentinian. Repeat: Rational, that does not mean smarter.

Most of the fans here are more fans of Manu rather than the Spurs. If he ever gets traded, 90% of the Argentinian users would leave. This isn't only happening with Manu; Gasol, Nene, Yao, etc.: the globalization of the NBA has lead into a guy from Siberia supporting the Jazz, for example.



Actually, for the price....

Argentinian (good Malbecs), Chilean, and even Texas wine beat both.

You should try Argentinian Cavernet Sauvignons, very good (and cheap) stuff there. :drunk

[Athenea]

Some brilliant quotes from Chumpie in 2003-4 :oops

(CD about the benching) Happier than he initailly was, yes--that was the point all along.

Starting is going to happen sooner or later for Manu. :drunk

Who's going to offer Manu $50 million? :lol :lol :spin


ChumpDumper
03-07-04, 10:48 PM
As a starter Hedo is 47.5% from the floor and 50.5% from the arc. :angel


ChumpDumper doing a Hedo’s play by play :smokin
03-21-04, 01:44 AM
(5:07) Davis Turnover: Bad Pass (3 TO) Steal: [b]Turkoglu (3 ST)
(5:03 =) [SAN 94-81] Parker Layup Shot: Made (15 PTS) Assist: Turkoglu (1 AST)
(4:42) Atkins Jump Shot: Missed
(4:40) [SAN] [b]Turkoglu Rebound (Off:0 Def:5)
(4:28) [SAN 96-81] Turkoglu Jump Shot: Made (2 PTS) Assist: Nesterovic (4 AST)
(4:11) Pierce Turnover: Bad Pass (4 TO) Steal: [b]Turkoglu (4 ST)
(4:03) [SAN] Bowen Jump Shot: Missed
(4:00) [SAN] Rose Rebound (Off:4 Def:2)
(3:48) [SAN 98-81] Rose Layup Shot: Made (13 PTS) Assist: Turkoglu (2 AST)
(3:27) Atkins Layup Shot: Missed
(3:25) [SAN] Nesterovic Rebound (Off:3 Def:5)
(3:14) [SAN 101-81] [b]Turkoglu Jump Shot: Made (5 PTS) Assist: Parker (5 AST)A great, sign to say the least.

ChumpDumper after one of the 1st PO's wins :blah
04-04-04, 10:16 PM
No one is going to buzzkill this win for me.

Who cares about the next one right now?


ChumpDumper :rolleyes
04-10-04, 03:20 PM
Excellent take, cf.

The last 4 games haven't exactly been dream matchups for Hedo.

As long as he doesn't let the other aspects of his game slip, I'm not worried :oops :oops

[Athenea]

Except the Spurs didn't live and die by the three last night.

COME THE FUCK ON!!!!!
I take anything coming from a liar and delusional like u w/a grain of salt.

[ChumpDumper]

This is the worst you could find?

Stick to anime.

Took you long enough anyway.

[Athenea]

This is the worst you could find?

Stick to anime.

Took you long enough anyway.
Hahahhaha ohhh now I'm scared hahahaha

PS: I'm just getting started...

[ChumpDumper]

Take your time.

I said plenty of positive things about Hedo.

And Manu.

Are you going to leave those out?

[Athenea]

Take your time.

I said plenty of positive things about Hedo.

And Manu.

Are you going to leave those out?
Again...the bullie card.
Won't work w/me...I'm telling u...
U said:
Hedo>Manu
who is gonna offer manu usd50 mill
Pop=genius+magician


Ahhh u also said (off topic I know) that Nocioni wouldn't make the NBA.

[ChumpDumper]

Again...the bullie card.It's "bully" and you don't even seem to know the meaning of that word either.
Ahhh u also said (off topic I know) that Nocioni wouldn't make the NBA.Link that right now or STFU.

I assume you know what that means.

[T Park]

I take anything coming from a liar and delusional like u w/a grain of salt.

The only one with delusions is you.

You are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy out in left field.

[Athenea]

The only one with delusions is you.

You are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy out in left field.
Really? Mr "I can get u a jersey give me your address...I had a trip to Bermuda TRiangle that's why I couldn't send it..I've left dozens of pms to Athenea but she hasn't answered me"
And BTW I can afford dozens of t-shirts.
Just stating the obvious...u r a liar or a show off or delusional or everything at the same time.

[T Park]

Someone needs a prozac, a bottle of water, and a nice warm bed.

[Athenea]

It's "bully" and you don't even seem to know the meaning of that word either.Link that right now or STFU.

I assume you know what that means.
Bully? Bullie? oops tha was harsh...
Me parece muy apropiado de tu parte que remarques las barreras idiomáticas. De hecho, me encantaría tener una conversación, en forma, en mi lengua natal. Tal vez así, podría ser más expansiva y más clara en mis opiniones. Si tenés inconvenientes con el castellano (cosa que dudo, porque de hecho creo que sos algo así como un renegado), podemos intentar la charla en portugués o en italiano. Mi japonés es todavía muy pobre y mi chino cantonés está en pañales. Ahhh y una descripción de bully sería un sujeto con tendencias patoteriles que intenta intimidar a las personas para autoafirmar un ego de dimensiones minúsculas a través de dicha conducta. Al que le caiga el sayo, que se lo ponga.
Enjoy the reading :)

[Athenea]

Someone needs a prozac, a bottle of water, and a nice warm bed.
And that's u coz if I'm not mistaken Jim adressed u about the same subject.

[ChumpDumper]

Pissed off because you didn't score a free jersey from TPark?

Weak.

It's not like he welched on a $1000 bet.[apologies to Jim]

His generosity is the stuff of minor legend, he'd probably still send you a jersey now after being such a jerk.

[ChumpDumper]

Nah, you still don't get it. Good luck with the Asian languages, though.

[T Park]

Actually, I did today pick up 5 Manu jerseys to get ready to send out.

I apologized for this before because I have been out of town for about 3 months and havent been able to.


Athenea, as much as you hate me, I apologize and wish you wouldn't.

You will get your jersey, I do apologize for the tardiness.

[T Park]

And that's u

actually i had to move about a god knows how heavy generator today on metal pipes inside a 53 foot moving van style trailer, and it took from 8 am till about 2 PM no lunch, and it was about 88 today here in San Antonio.

So I dont need a prozac or a warm bed.

a cold bed with a fan and a ice cold bottle of water would rock though :)

[whottt]

Athenea...just realize when you argue with Chump...

All season long he's reversed his stance from last year and said doing anything to help Barry's game is "charity" and Barry is a huge pussy if he needs it...this after he rode Hedo's jock into a choke last season...

Now all of a sudden Pop starts Barry and gives him the "charity" that Chump has ridiculed all season long...and Chump acts like it's an act of brilliance...

Remember...when you argue with Chump you are aruing with a huge nutsac extension...he will change and waffle depending on what Pop does...

Next week you could just as easily find him arguing against the very position he is defending in this thread...depending on what Pop does.

Take it with a grain of salt...

Then again, if you are mad at Pop Chump is a good person to take it out on.,...whupping him in an argument is the closest you'll ever get to being able to kick pop in the balls ;)

[ChumpDumper]

All season long he's reversed his stance and said doing anything to help Barry's game is "charity" and Barry is a huge pussy if he needs it.Quite the contrary. I'm all for welfare if it helps. We had options before with Devin. Now we don't. Just like last year.
Next week you'll could just as easily find him arguing against the very position he is defending in this thread.As you can see by timvp's links, I was not at all opposed to Manu's coming off the bench.

Go ahead and look.

You stil haven't gotten back to me about Manu's "not going to do it again" -- I gave you the link, now begin backtracking.

[MannyIsGod]

Bully? Bullie? oops tha was harsh...
Me parece muy apropiado de tu parte que remarques las barreras idiomáticas. De hecho, me encantaría tener una conversación, en forma, en mi lengua natal. Tal vez así, podría ser más expansiva y más clara en mis opiniones. Si tenés inconvenientes con el castellano (cosa que dudo, porque de hecho creo que sos algo así como un renegado), podemos intentar la charla en portugués o en italiano. Mi japonés es todavía muy pobre y mi chino cantonés está en pañales. Ahhh y una descripción de bully sería un sujeto con tendencias patoteriles que intenta intimidar a las personas para autoafirmar un ego de dimensiones minúsculas a través de dicha conducta. Al que le caiga el sayo, que se lo ponga.
Enjoy the reading :)
Well, I don't know about your cantonese, but you sure as hell belong in a diaper.

It's absolutly amazing that you trying to call Chump a bully because she tried to intimidate you (which she didn't) while trying to intimidate someone with your supposed language skills.

Give us a freaking break and either bring some quality basketball takes or STFU already. It's old.

[whottt]

Quite the contrary. I'm all for welfare if it helps. We had options before with Devin. Now we don't. Just like last year.As you can see by timvp's links, I was not at all opposed to Manu's coming off the bench.

Hmmm...I know you've said you don't want to give Barry "welfare" since Devin was injured...


Go ahead and look.

You stil haven't gotten back to me about Manu's "not going to do it again" -- I gave you the link, now begin backtracking.

Tell you what...Prove to me you can remember what we were arguing about in Hedo>Manu and then I'll go to the trouble of clarifying that statement.

I am betting you can't remember...because if you could then you'd know what I meant by that.

But basically..right now it appears that you literally believe that I think players have the power to decide if they start or come off the bench on this team.

Tony Massenburg will insert himself into the starting lineup in our next game.

[stéphane]

Noted.

But then again, how many Spurs fans from France post here? I can count the number on one hand. And honestly, that has always shocked me. France has like twice the population of Argentina and Tony Parker has been with the team longer, but the French don't support him to the same degree as the Argentines support Manu.

Argentines live and die by the play of Manu. The French don't care enough to contribute here in regards to Parker.

Why is that?

QUESTION.



P.S.

Don't get me started on how much Slovenians care about Beno and Rasho or how even New Zealanders care about Sean Marks.


Easy to answer, it mainly has to do with english language level but also with the fact that it can be very disapointing and upseting to fail arguing in a foreign language... And honestly, most french that support TP know jack about bball or are just female of 15/16years old who are "fallin" for him because he's sexy and stuff. So if you don't know anything about bball, you're average in english and you read a couple of topics, you can be scared and wonder to post or not. Because if you say something really stupid at spurstalk, you have ten replies saying how retarded you are etc etc
So they just read a bit and avoid posting. Fair enough :)
But anyway soccer is the biggest sport in France by far.

[stéphane]

Here's how you piss stéphane off:
California wines > French wines
:lol :lol :lol so true
French Wine < Slovenian Wine < ... < California Wine

[Frenchise player]

I think that the main reason why French people aren't interested in the NBA is because there is a huge tradition in France that we call the "French exeption".
That means that we have to defend our own culture like movies, music, books....
That's why, France's culture is not as americanized as Argentina or Slovenia (even if there is a lot of quality argentinian films).
The american tv channels like tnt or espn aren't widespread as in South America.
I lived in Brazil during 5 years, and I was impressed how american tv series or movies were important in the live of young people.
Parker is well-known in France and he has a good coverage in the media, but people doesn't have the passion for the nba as argentinians have.

[ChumpDumper]

I know you've said you don't want to give Barry "welfare" since Devin was injured.I said it wasn't without precedent, and it's not like we can play Big Dog 30mpg. Link to where I said I was against it.
Tell you what...Prove to me you can remember what we were arguing about in Hedo>ManuAlready done, so STFU.
I am betting you can't remember...because if you could then you'd know what I meant by that.If you can't explain yourself, or want to avoid backtracking, don't be a coward about it.
But basically..right now it appears that you literally believe that I think players have the power to decide if they start or come off the bench on this team.Players can do all they can to get out of a situation like this. You simply said he would not do it again. Please spin that or backtrack, I expect a litle of both.

[team-work]

The success of this move depends on how Barry responds (as in the regular season, he works better as a starter). Manu has proven himself to be powerful from the bench in the last 2 seasons, and as a starter this one.

Ultimate goal : to have someone to score points when BOTH Tony and Tim struggles offensively, eg. the last 4 playoff games vs the Lakers in 04 / Game 1 vs Nuggets.

Also needs to decide how Devin can contribute as his back improves, spotty minutes vs first guard off the bench? All 3 players can also pick up minutes as small forward.

[Athenea]

Actually, I did today pick up 5 Manu jerseys to get ready to send out.

I apologized for this before because I have been out of town for about 3 months and havent been able to.


Athenea, as much as you hate me, I apologize and wish you wouldn't.

You will get your jersey, I do apologize for the tardiness.
Don't bother, TPark...
I never expected to recieve the jersey anyway. I didn't want to make the thing public also. U can say I'm bitchy when I'm being bitchy :lol
I can afford my own stuff.
Thanks anyway.

[Athenea]

Give us a freaking break and either bring some quality basketball takes or STFU already. It's old.
Manny u r so cheesy...u look cheesy...u sound cheesy...bleh

[dmassimo10]

Pop probably wants to have either Duncan or Manu on the floor at all or near all times. With Manu starting there were times both were on the bench at the same time.


I feel the same way...One all-star in at all times -- I think Brent has a good head for Spurs b-ball and he is cool and confident - two things needed in playoff time so Manu off the bench -- good move!

Manu can spark up his own energy at any time - he's a self starter ...

[MannyIsGod]

Yes, *I* am the cheesy one. You on the otherhand, are the grand multi-lingual Argentinian ninja.

[picnroll]

I feel the same way...One all-star in at all times -- I think Brent has a good head for Spurs b-ball and he is cool and confident - two things needed in playoff time so Manu off the bench -- good move!

Manu can spark up his own energy at any time - he's a self starter ...
Yeah. This is what Pop and PJ have said now multiple times (listen to the Pop show). Some people are more concerned about hearing Manu's name during intros than logical rotations which keep multiple threat players on the court at all time to attack the defense.

[stéphane]

Don't bother, TPark...
I never expected to recieve the jersey anyway. I didn't want to make the thing public also. U can say I'm bitchy when I'm being bitchy :lol
I can afford my own stuff.
Thanks anyway.
I have no pride, so if you have an extra jersey ;)
just kiddin T Park

[Athenea]

I have no pride, so if you have an extra jersey ;)
just kiddin T Park
yup...I have no pride.
You should know about that being french and all...
Kidding :)

[stéphane]

yup...I have no pride.
You should know about that being french and all...
Kidding :)
well i basically meant you have pride Mrs A. because you say you can buy your own stuff...
as i hardly can, i said (as a joke) that myself i dont have pride...

[Obvious]

I've come to the conclusion that coming off the bench has a negative conotation in places outside the US. Here, it's not really that big of a deal as long as you get the same number of minutes.
Just a simple question: can you imagine in the bench any of the 24 All-Star for tactical reasons?. It’s a logical issue, not a pride or whatever you want.

[ALVAREZ6]

:lol :lol :lol so true
French Wine < Slovenian Wine < ... < California Wine
French Wine < Slovenian Wine < ... < California Wine<Italian Wine < Argentinean Wine

[bigbendbruisebrother]

^^^
Well, since Barry got the starting job, we've certainly had our share of Argentine whine on this forum, and I have to say it's sour with bitter overtones.

[stéphane]

French Wine < Slovenian Wine < ... < California Wine<Italian Wine < Argentinean Wine
you know it was ironic do you ?

[ALVAREZ6]

you know it was ironic do you ?
What was ironic?

[MadDog73]

^^^
Well, since Barry got the starting job, we've certainly had our share of Argentine whine on this forum, and I have to say it's sour with bitter overtones.

Nice one, bbbb. Although smeagol seems gracious enough.

[MadDog73]

What was ironic?

His post about French wine being the worse...

or was it whine?

In any case, everybody here knows Texas wine is the best! :)

[ALVAREZ6]

His post about French wine being the worse...

or was it whine?

In any case, everybody here knows Texas wine is the best! :)
I would have understood if he said it was sarcasm...but Irony wouldn't be the word that I would have chosen, which is why I was confused.

I wasn't being serious about my post either...

[GoSpurs21]

if this is true its over chalk up another win to denver

fuck you popovich


yep fucking retarded. only confirms my belief pop is a fucking retard in panic mode.

who looks like the retard now?

[ChumpDumper]

I would have understood if he said it was sarcasm...but Irony wouldn't be the word that I would have chosen, which is why I was confused.I believe that would be a pun.

[MannyIsGod]

Just a simple question: can you imagine in the bench any of the 24 All-Star for tactical reasons?. It’s a logical issue, not a pride or whatever you want.
AllStars end up on benches and flourish a lot of the time. It's not that unimaginable. Man, making the All Star team actually isn't that big of an honor.

[ALVAREZ6]

I believe that would be a pun.
Congrats!

Want a cookie?

[ChumpDumper]

Congrats!

Want a cookie?You're welcome.

[Man In Black]

Athenea is on a roll.

Curious. I know that when it comes to Soccer, if a player comes off the bench. It's looked upon that that player is less capable than a starter.
Does that thinking apply to basketball as well?

It shouldn't but I'm just wondering if that is a primary reason as to why you look at the move as bad? I'm saying that both Brent & Hedo haven't exactly earned starting positions BUT notice that as a team, the Spurs don't lose much when Manu comes off the bench.
Do I want him to start? Hell yeah but even when he says that he is happy with the results and focuses on the title, I give him major props for knowing what the goal is. That his sacrifice is only one of time but NOT IMPORTANCE and that WINNING IS WHAT IS BEST.
He'll start again. And when he does, BARRY better remember that he needs to ATTACK THE RACK.

[picnroll]

Next year if Scola is a Spur, as expected, he will undoubtedly be coming off the bench if he makes the rotation. If Manu starts he'll likely being heading to the bench about the time Scola would be taking the floor. Do the Manu jockers see any value in adjusting Manu's floor time to play with Scola and take advantage of the chemistry they've developed over the years?

[ALVAREZ6]

Do the Manu jockers see any value in adjusting Manu's floor time to play with Scola and take advantage of the chemistry they've developed over the years?
No....unless you want to start Scola...

[picnroll]

No....unless you want to start Scola...
I have a feeling will be bombarded with that sentiment next year. :lol

[ALVAREZ6]

I have a feeling will be bombarded with that sentiment next year. :lol
No you won't, I don't expect Scola to start at all.

But Manu is going to start.

[picnroll]

I'd like Manu to start too but ....

Given the Spurs emphasis on defense to the point that they will keep defensive specialists on the floor with very limited offensive skills, guys like Bowen, Rasho, Nazr, possibly Linton Johnson, I'd like them to keep a minimum of two very strong offensive players, guys who can create their own shot or shots for others, at all times. That currently leaves Duncan, Manu and Parker. Parker is the only one who's shown he can go a full quarter at his top speed. Duncan and Manu seem to both need to come out at the six to eight minute mark. Now you figure out a rotation that can accomplish the above.

[bigbendbruisebrother]

No....unless you want to start Scola...

I put this question to the loyal Argentine Manu fans: Would you rather 1. Manu play a critical 6th man role from the bench on the best team in the league, in constant competion for a championship, or 2. STAR on a mediocre team like the Sixers who are constantly struggling to make the playoffs and then get bounced in the first round?

[ALVAREZ6]

I put this question to the loyal Argentine Manu fans: Would you rather 1. Manu play a critical 6th man role from the bench on the best team in the league, in constant competion for a championship, or 2. STAR on a mediocre team like the Sixers who are constantly struggling to make the playoffs and then get bounced in the first round?
How can you ask me this if #2 is not going to happen.

Bigbendbruisebrother, the options should be more like:

1. Manu play a critical 6th man role from the bench on the best team in the league, in constant competion for a championship

or

2. Manu play a critical role from the starting line-up on the best team in the league, in constant competition for a championship.

I'd go with 2.

As a starter...Manu DOES play a critical role, he DOES play on the best team in the league, and he IS in constant competition for a championship.

Why did you give me your original 2nd choice, when it isn't being discussed?

[timvp]

The only way Manu survives until the end of his contract is if the Spurs bring him off the bench and limit him to around 25-28 minutes per game in the regular season and about 32 in the playoffs. If you try to play him more than that, he's not going to last.

While giving Barry confidence by putting him in the starting lineup is part of it, another part is the Spurs need to conserve Manu's minutes. With a "forced" 12 minutes of rest (6 to start each half), it will be easier to hold him to about 30 played instead of getting desperate and playing him close to 40 and burning him out in the first round.

[bigbendbruisebrother]

Why did you give me your original 2nd choice, when it isn't being discussed?

I'm introducing it for discussion because I want to know if Argentine fans care more about the pride of seeing a fellow countryman start for a great team than you do seeing said team win a championship.

If you don't like the question as I posed it, don't answer it. Oh wait, you didn't.

[ALVAREZ6]

Ok want an answer, then I pick 1.

But what fucking makes you think the Spurs can't win a championship with Manu as a starter?

Answer that please.

[bigbendbruisebrother]

The only way Manu survives until the end of his contract is if the Spurs bring him off the bench and limit him to around 25-28 minutes per game in the regular season and about 32 in the playoffs. If you try to play him more than that, he's not going to last.

Everytime I see Manu play, I think, "This guy is the most balls out player I've ever seen." But I can't picture him playing ten years from now if his minutes are not managed.

[T Park]

Because he cant handle the goddamn minutes.

How many times we gotta go over this.

[ALVAREZ6]

Everytime I see Manu play, I think, "This guy is the most balls out player I've ever seen." But I can't picture him playing ten years from now if his minutes are not managed.
I would never see Manu playing 10 years from now either way.


Not many players stay in the league at 37 years old.

[Manu20]

As long as it helps the team win it should not matter if Manu is a starter or comes off the bench. Besides he will still play the same amount of minutes as a starter or reserve.

[ducks]

manu=pussy

[ALVAREZ6]

manu=pussy
I agree.

[bigbendbruisebrother]

Ok want an answer, then I pick 1.

But what fucking makes you think the Spurs can't win a championship with Manu as a starter?

Answer that please.

FOR THIS SERIES, Game Two makes me think the Spurs are more effective defensively (versus Boykins) and offensively (Barry can't create his own shots; Manu kicks ass at it).

And Alvarez, no need to get pissy at me. Tranquilo. Manu is my favorite Spur. Period. I just think that in order to win championships, teams have to be flexible when matching up against the opposition. Fortunately, the Spurs to a man are the best players on earth when it comes to sacraficing individually in order to help the team win. Manu is one of them.

[ALVAREZ6]

FOR THIS SERIES, Game Two makes me think the Spurs are more effective defensively (versus Boykins) and offensively (Barry can't create his own shots; Manu kicks ass at it).

And Alvarez, no need to get pissy at me. Tranquilo. Manu is my favorite Spur. Period. I just think that in order to win championships, teams have to be flexible when matching up against the opposition. Fortunately, the Spurs to a man are the best players on earth when it comes to sacraficing individually in order to help the team win. Manu is one of them.
Listen, the Spurs would have came out and murdered the Nuggets in game 2 no matter who started, or who came off the bench. They knew what they had to do, and they did it...They needed a win, and I think they would have gotten it no matter what.


I am not one of those Manu fans that care about whether Manu starts or not, as long as he keeps his minutes and I see him play on TV, I'm fine with it.

I just don't know why we can't be the best team in the league with the traditional starters, after all, the Spurs were in 1st for the time of the season when we were healthy.

If Manu is benched at the start of next season, then I will be mad because Manu deserves more than that.

[T Park]

You'll be mad??

Pop is quite scared.......


They were healthy, but Manu was exhausted.

Manu needs his minutes limited, why don't you people understand that.

[ALVAREZ6]

Manu needs his minutes limited, why don't you people understand that.
Can't they still be limited if he starts?

[The Coach]

First - Let it be known that I'm not a POP fan, as coach of this team. However, I do give credit where credit is due. I support the move of Ginobily, but I'm not convinced that this should be a permanent stradegy. I like the way Brent played during the times he started, however, I feel the same results, will be obtained, as he plays more during the progress of this series.

Brent can take it to the hole, when he chose to do so. I would like to see him perform this way a little more.

Another reason why I don't have a problem with this change, is because, I feel coach Pop, made a serious error in trying to play our starters all of those minutes in game 1, and then he asked a shooter like Big Dog to go in during the 4th quarter, after having set the whole game. Bad move at this stage of his working back into game shape. There's a reason why Big Dog was a number 1 pick, give him a chance, you will not regret it Pop.

[ambchang]

Everytime I see Manu play, I think, "This guy is the most balls out player I've ever seen." But I can't picture him playing ten years from now if his minutes are not managed.

They said the same thing about Allen Iverson.

[picnroll]

From todays ESPN Insider

Q: Great move by Gregg Popovich putting Brent Barry (4-4 in 3-pointers) in the starting lineup with Tim Duncan and having Manu Ginobili, who is more capable of creating his own shots, come off the bench . Will we see this lineup in the next game(s)? – Newlin, Toronto, Ontario

Hollinger: Newlin, I think we might. Here's the thing: Most players play worse off the bench than they do as starters. If you go through the league, probably 90-95 percent of the players are like that. But Ginobili, over his career, has played just as well as a sub, so the adjustment isn't a big deal to him.

Meanwhile, Barry's starter-sub splits are huge. This year he shot 48 percent when he starts versus 41 percent off the bench, and his per-minute rates of points, rebounds, and assists all increased substantially. So by making this move, Popovich dramatically increases Barry's effectiveness while losing nothing from Ginobili.

Additionally, the switch is particularly advantageous in this series because it throws George Karl's rotation off kilter. Denver has DerMarr Johnson starting as its defensive stopper, but he almost never faced Ginobili in Game 2. And when Karl goes to the bench, instead of playing Earl Boykins on Barry defensively, Karl is forced to put him on either Ginobili or Parker.

There is one drawback, however: Popovich's second-best player doesn't get as many minutes, because he starts each half on the bench. But considering the other advantages, it's worth it for this series, so Pop should ride it as long as Barry makes shots. But if San Antonio advances, I'd guess Manu will begin the next round in the starting lineup.

And some bonus coverage on DPY

Q: Honestly, how can Bruce Bowen be the Defensive Player of the Year? I know the guy hustles and sometimes has good defensive games against swingmen, but some of the comments I've seen justifying him being selected are ridiculous. When was the last time somebody won the award who did not even average one steal or one block per game? Might as well give it to Tayshaun Prince, or Shawn Marion if you are going to give it to somebody for hustling and stops. – Alex, East Lansing, Mich.

Hollinger: You're coming face-to-face with the reality of NBA defensive stats: They tell us almost nothing. Blocks and steals are a tiny sliver of what a good defender does, but they're the only part that's visible in the box score. Thus, despite not getting many blocks or steals, it's possible for Bowen to be an outstanding defender.

Where I disagree with the (rumored) Bowen vote, however, is that he isn't his team's best defender. That title goes to Tim Duncan. The Spurs' defense gave up 9.1 points more per 48 minutes when Duncan left the floor, versus just 1.5 for Bowen. Duncan also blocked nearly three shots a game and, unlike many shot blockers, he does it without taking himself out of position for rebounds.

Overall, had I been given a ballot, I would have had Duncan first, Ben Wallace second, and Bowen and Prince tied for third.

John Hollinger, author of "Pro Basketball Forecast 2004-05," is a regular contributor to ESPN Insider. Click here to contact John.

[ALVAREZ6]

I agree with Hollinger: Manu can come off the bench as long as Barry keeps hitting his shots, or if the Spurs advance, Manu should return to start a new series. I just don't think it would be fair to take away his starting position permanently.

[EasilyAmused]

Curious. I know that when it comes to Soccer, if a player comes off the bench. It's looked upon that that player is less capable than a starter.

Makes sense why some of us would apply the same thinking

But really… some of responses are getting pretty ridiculous… :angel

I love the passion that many defend their favorites, but really if Manu is okay with it why can’t we support the decision and instead of complaining, be happy and send positive energy to both Manu and the team.


If Manu is benched at the start of next season, then I will be mad because Manu deserves more than that

I reserve the right to be irrational if Manu is benched at the start of next season :lol

[RobinsontoDuncan]

From todays ESPN Insider
Where I disagree with the (rumored) Bowen vote, however, is that he isn't his team's best defender .


Pop says that Rasho is a better defender than Duncan, and Bowen draws the best player from every team, but he only guards one player, Duncan guards the paint, therefore would he not naturally have a greater impact imeditatly on points? The better way to measure their effectivness would be to see the diffrential in their assigments PPG, against the spurs and against the league.

[picnroll]

Lifted from another board.

Manu:

Me explican por favor que estan diciendo???

Y de que hablan cuando dicen cosas como por ejemplo:

- Manu puede pagar un precio muy caro

- El danio ya esta hecho y lo agarra en el mejor momento de su carrera.

- TP juega un mal partido y que hace Pop nada...

- El banco no funciona y que pasa? sacrificamos a Manu.

y mas etc etc etc... que estamos diciendo??

En que me estoy sacrificando?? saben cual es la unica diferencia?? que no juego los primeros 6', que son los que todos estan frios y mas intracendentes, despues los primeros 5' del 2do tiempo. Donde esta todo el problema?? Que danio me estan haciendo?? el unico que esta arriesgando es el! ya que si perdemos o la pateo tanto yo de suplente como Barry de titular, lo van a matar a el. Que precio muy caro puedo pagar?? si vos lo miras egoisticamente, tengo todo por ganar...

Las razones, las compartan o no, fueron entendibles.

Tampoco vamos a decir que ganamos por 30 por el cambio, porque no es verdad, esta claro, pero si quieren, miren los nros de los minutos del anio pasado como suplente y de este como titular. 29.6 este anio, 29.4 el pasado!!! tanta diferencia??

Si ademas de hacer lo mismo, ayuda a un companiero a empezar mejor y que rinda mas, no lo harian??? a ver... quiero saber sus opiniones.

Un abrazo.

pd: El anio pasado no dije que lo entendia, que me parecia barbaro y demas... dije que no me habia gustado, pero lo acepte y trate de hacerlo bien. Esta vez se lo dije desde el primer momento en que me lo insinuo.[/B][/QUOTE]
Manu is talking about some of the things that have been said in his site. (If you think that we argentinians overreacted here, you should see what's happening over there )

Translation by poster Marhq:

What am I sacrifying? Do you know what's the difference? That I don't play the first 6 minutes, when everybody's cold and not doing much, and then the first 5 minutes of the second half. Where's the problem? What harm is being done to me? The only one risking something is Pop for if we lose or I suck as a sub or Barry as a starter, Pop is the one who's gonna get killed. What is the high price I may have to pay? If you look at it from a selfish point of view, I'm in a win-win situation.

The reasons, whether you like them or not, were understandable.

Off course, I'm not gonna say that we won by 30 because of the switch because that's not true. But if you want, go look my minutes from last year as a sub and this year's as a starter. 29.6 this year and 29.4 last year!. Is that such a big difference?

And if, in addition to doing the same, you're helping a teamate to start better and produce more, wouldn't you do it? Let's see, let me know your opinions.

PS: last year I didn't said that I understood it and that I thought it was OK with me. I said that I didn't like it but I accepted it and tried to do my best. This time I told Pop it was OK from the very first time he suggested it.

[ALVAREZ6]

^^That's Manu's reply to a thread in his forum on his official website, in case if you didn't know.

[picnroll]

I figured. Was the translation supplied on his board?

The reason Spurs are championship quality is because they have players with character like Manu. They interviewed Camby about changing the starting rotation in Denver with Buckner starting and he said he didn't have a problem with it if he didn't lose his spot.

[ALVAREZ6]

I figured. Was the translation supplied on his board?
The reason Spurs are championship quality is because they have players with character like Manu. They interviewed Camby about changing the starting rotation in Denver with Buckner starting and he said he didn't have a problem with it if he didn't lose his spot.
Yes.

[Marhq]

I figured. Was the translation supplied on his board?
No. :eyebrows

[ALVAREZ6]

No. :eyebrows
lol, Well, it was previously posted on this board.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

I think that the main reason why French people aren't interested in the NBA is because there is a huge tradition in France that we call the "French exeption".
That means that we have to defend our own culture like movies, music, books....
That's why, France's culture is not as americanized as Argentina or Slovenia (even if there is a lot of quality argentinian films).
The american tv channels like tnt or espn aren't widespread as in South America.
I lived in Brazil during 5 years, and I was impressed how american tv series or movies were important in the live of young people.
Parker is well-known in France and he has a good coverage in the media, but people doesn't have the passion for the nba as argentinians have.

I think you are wrong there. Argentina is probably one of the "less-Americanized" countries in Latin America. e.g.: In Brazil, hip-hop had a great impact on culture, like many other countries in the world. In Argentina hip-hop is barely listened, only some kids that watch MTV and think it's the newest cool thing. Hip-Hop culture is very alien to the average Argentinian, we have our own "gangsta" culture, which is called "cumbia villera".

In Argentina the only "American" sport that is popular is basketball. Of course the king is football (soccer), which Argentinians live and die for. Other important sports are rugby, motor racing, tennis, grass hockey and volleyball.

Baseball, Ice Hockey and American Rules Football are almost non-existant. They only get like one game per week on Sports networks and that is because those networks broadcast to countries like Mexico, Venezuela, Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, etc, who have a greater interest in them.

[stéphane]

I think you are wrong there. Argentina is probably one of the "less-Americanized" countries in Latin America. e.g.: In Brazil, hip-hop had a great impact on culture, like many other countries in the world. In Argentina hip-hop is barely listened, only some kids that watch MTV and think it's the newest cool thing. Hip-Hop culture is very alien to the average Argentinian, we have our own "gangsta" culture, which is called "cumbia villera".

In Argentina the only "American" sport that is popular is basketball. Of course the king is football (soccer), which Argentinians live and die for. Other important sports are rugby, motor racing, tennis, grass hockey and volleyball.

Baseball, Ice Hockey and American Rules Football are almost non-existant. They only get like one game per week on Sports networks and that is because those networks broadcast to countries like Mexico, Venezuela, Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, etc, who have a greater interest in them.

Boca or River? :p ;)

[hendrix]

In Argentina the only "American" sport that is popular is basketball. Of course the king is football (soccer), which Argentinians live and die for. Other important sports are rugby, motor racing, tennis, grass hockey and volleyball.


Yeah man... grass hockey :smokin :smokin Thats the stuff!!. :)



Baseball, Ice Hockey and American Rules Football are almost non-existant.

Yes, i can confirm this. I play Flag Football on weekends and we're pretty much non-existants. :(

[picnroll]

Recently was in France. Seems like they're losing their culture to the Moslems anyways.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Boca or River?

River of course (as Manu, we support the best!)


Yeah man... grass hockey Thats the stuff!!.

Hahah, well, you know what I mean.... :smokin

[ALVAREZ6]

Boca or River? :p ;)
Boca.

[stéphane]

Boca.
Happy century to your club man. :elephant