I'm speechless R. Jefferson 1-8, 2 pts 2 reb 1 BLK.

[SinBAD]

I dont know what else to say.this guy has tremendous potential. What is going on?this is unacceptable. Pop needs to sit him down for a month to send him a message

[timtonymanu]

stfu and wait till after the game if the spurs lose. dont need to be dissing people when the game is still on. put ur concerns in the game thread. thank you!

[Spurs Brazil]

He's stealing P.Holt

[thekingrobert]

you're being too nice 1-9

[timvp]

I hope he's hurting. If this is him healthy, Holt will never sign off on another big trade again.

[phxspurfan]

I'm pretty sure I could have snaked my way in for a couple more baskets.

[ElNono]

One drive to the basket the entire game... The rest was spot up threes or long range jumpers...
It's Pop's fault though to think he could change RJ's game...

[Buddy Holly]

stfu and wait till after the game if the spurs lose. dont need to be dissing people when the game is still on. put ur concerns in the game thread. thank you!

So if the Spurs won it would have negated his sorry ass performance and his sorry ass season to date?

Or were you being sarcastic?

[z0sa]

Manu did incredible (in the 4th) and still couldn't draw a tackling foul on the last play. Just who cares. This team isn't set up for him to be more than a 10-12 point scorer on average, people who expected differently at first should adjust their expectations.

[Libri]

RJ where art thou?

[HarlemHeat37]

For the millionth time..he's the SAME player he has been the last 2 years..this one is ENTIRELY on the Spurs front office for thinking he'll go back to the semi-defensive stopper he was earlier in his career..

[androck]

Apparently we were asking too much for even expecting him to play a lick of defense

[timtonymanu]

So if the Spurs won it would have negated his sorry ass performance and his sorry ass season to date?

Or were you being sarcastic?

i dont mind the thread being started if it was made after the game.

[Creation88]

worst. trade. in. the. history. of. the. franchise.

[Buddy Holly]

i dont mind the thread being started if it was made after the game.

Why? :lol

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I hope he's hurting. If this is him healthy, Holt will never sign off on another big trade again.

lol its funny because its true

[SCdac]

playing almost 10 less minutes and taking almost 5 less shots per game than his career averages. Reminds me of a guy like Finley, who isn't the most versatile, coming to the Spurs and becoming a role player... Honestly, I'd like to see more plays run for him that amount to slashing and lobs, but as it is now, with the way we've been using small forwards the past 6 years, just can't seem to work him into the offense. Often times he's set up... to catch and shoot.

[dbestpro]

Offense is not the problem for this team even when RJ is off. The problem remains trying to play defense with a wing for a PF. We continually are trying to compensate which causes the jump shooters to be wide open. If you crowd the shooter they simply attack the basket for an easy two. Even if the lone big on the floor makes a play the opposing team still gets the rebound for an easy two. I wish everyone would focus their anger on the team and not the individual because there is not one individual who could play better and turn this thing around. It remains a failed philosophy that must be pointed out at every turn until Pop finally has an epiphany.

[androck]

worst. trade. in. the. history. of. the. franchise.

This might be accurate. From a financial point of view, the ownership group was counting on Jefferson to help the Spurs make a deep playoff run. However, he's playing like a below-average NBA player and he's the second-highest paid player on the team. On top of that, he has another year on his contract. The team can't afford to tank.

[murpjf88]

And to think, I used to be the only RJ hater in the group. Sometimes, people need to see things with their own two eyes rather than hear it from somebody directly.

[SpursRulez4eVeR]

i haven't seen much of RJ before hes a spur, but what i have noticed is that he is a very rhythm/ streaky scorer. He could put up 8-10 points in a very short span of time, and if he didn't get going earlier, forget about it, everything and i do mean everything falls apart, not only his shooting but even his weak D got even weaker....and his softness become non-existence.

[DesignatedT]

hes terrible. i would rather roger mason play than him. and im not even joking. the guy is complete garbage.

he has spent his whole career in the open court, and he can do that. but, thats not what we do here.

all he is, is a spot up shooter that plays no defense whatsoever, and we have a better version of that on the bench in rmj

[Spursfan 87]

Big upgrade over last year's Finley huh

[neboat]

RJ sucks...he should come off the bench where he can have more freedom and expand his offensive game and go against the opponent's bench players. However, I am not sure what we can do about his horrible defense...he's as bad as Finley.

[Trimble87]

This team isn't set up for him to be more than a 10-12 point scorer on average, people who expected differently at first should adjust their expectations.


The problem isn't RJ's scoring. I came into the season expecting him to be a 13-15ppg scorer at best. The problem is he isn't being aggressive and he does nothing else for the team when his shot isn't falling. Play SOME defense, show SOME effort, actually fight for a fucking rebound. Do ANYTHING else. RJ has been a huge disappointment this year. And I consider myself to be a fairly rational fan.

[siraulo23]

RJ should get Finley's shots from last season at least

right now, all he does is stand around wait for someone to pass him the ball, either shoot a three, fake a three then drive to the lane if its open, or shoot a mid range j

[DesignatedT]

The problem isn't RJ's scoring. I came into the season expecting him to be a 13-15ppg scorer at best. The problem is he isn't being aggressive and he does nothing else for the team when his shot isn't falling. Play SOME defense, show SOME effort, actually fight for a fucking rebound. Do ANYTHING else. RJ has been a huge disappointment this year. And I consider myself to be a fairly rational fan.

Exactly, Its not about the scoring. he shows no effort. does nothing else. he is a spot up shooter that plays no defense (and if we were looking for that, we have a better version, sitting on the bench in roger mason jr)

A big thing that surprised me with jefferson and im sure surprised everyone was i was under the impression that he is able to get into the lane. I figured he could get to the FT line at least 8-10 times a game, which would help this team out WAY MORE than people think. but again he obviously cant create his own shot at all.

[neboat]

RJ should get Finley's shots from last season at least

right now, all he does is stand around wait for someone to pass him the ball, either shoot a three, fake a three then drive to the lane if its open, or shoot a mid range j

And unfortunately for RJ, he's not good at shooting the 3 or the mid range j... :bang

[z0sa]

The problem isn't RJ's scoring.

thread title.

[DesignatedT]

thread title.

The problem is RJ's defense or lack there of, his lack of energy, his lack of confidence, his lack of effort(which is really sad) and his lack of ability to create his own shot( which results in us paying 17 mil/yr for nothing but a lame old role player)

jefferson looks older and slower than duncan and manu out there.... thats the problem.

[Bruno]

Ginobili deserves nearly as much blame as Jefferson for what he is doing this year.

Anyway, that's the way ST is. Manu is perfect and it's never his fault.

[timvp]

Ginobili deserves nearly as much blame as Jefferson for what he is doing this year.

Anyway, that's the way ST is. Manu is perfect and it's never his fault.

Manu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RJ this season. It's not even close. Add in Manu being paid much less and the vocal minority of Spurs fans who want him to be traded and I'd say Manu is getting close to a fair shake by Spurs Nation.

Manu's game has no doubt been in decline but he's finding ways to still be effective most nights ... namely by passing better than ever. Comparing him to RJ AKA Finley-with-a-worse-jumper is not fair.

Comparing the players to what was expected going into the season, I'd say the order goes RJ ---> TP ---> Manu ---> Duncan.

[z0sa]

The problem is RJ's defense or lack there of, his lack of energy, his lack of confidence, his lack of effort(which is really sad) and his lack of ability to create his own shot( which results in us paying 17 mil/yr for nothing but a lame old role player)

jefferson looks older and slower than duncan and manu out there.... thats the problem.

I agree on some counts, but I was responding to the fact he shot 1-8 and tends to disappear in big games (rather, games we need him). He's not going to be a consistent big time scorer unless TP stops being the center of the offense and he hasn't earned his teammates' trust period anyway.

[Bruno]

Manu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RJ this season. It's not even close. Add in Manu being paid much less and the vocal minority of Spurs fans who want him to be traded and I'd say Manu is getting close to a fair shake by Spurs Nation.

Manu's game has no doubt been in decline but he's finding ways to still be effective most nights ... namely by passing better than ever. Comparing him to RJ AKA Finley-with-a-worse-jumper is not fair.

Comparing the players to what was expected going into the season, I'd say the order goes RJ ---> TP ---> Manu ---> Duncan.

That's just wrong.

Like it or not but Ginobili has been a huge disappointment this year and nearly as big as RJ.
He has been injured a lot these past years and the hope coming into this season was that he would nearly be back at his previous level.

After an half season, he isn't anywhere close to that level. i don't even see how it can be even debatable.

[DesignatedT]

I agree on some counts, but I was responding to the fact he shot 1-8 and tends to disappear in big games (rather, games we need him). He's not going to be a consistent big time scorer unless TP stops being the center of the offense and he hasn't earned his teammates' trust period anyway.

word. TP isnt a pass first gaurd, We have always known this. I was just unaware of the inability of jefferson to create his own shot. he really needs to be set up to make anything happen.

What i just cant understand is that

Jefferson, Dice, Blair are all better and an improvement over Udoka, KT and Oberto and yet were playing worse than we were. Obviously its the Defense that took a hit, but still we have so much more talent and we still cant win games and to me you can only put the blame on the coaching staff for that reason.

I am just upset at Jefferson because i know our FO was expecting more than what hes giving, and right now hes the most expensive "role player" to ever walk the planet, when we get the exact same production and even more sometimes from Roger Mason who is worth 5x less.

[timaios]

Ok, so... when our real SF, Michael Finley, is coming back ? :lol

I mean, seriously, i miss him right now !

[ElNono]

Like it or not but Ginobili has been a huge disappointment this year and nearly as big as RJ.

No way. Not even close. Unless you had some surreal expectations, I guess.
I mean, losing his athleticism was expected, but nobody expected him to make up for it by being the de-facto reserve PG on the team. He hasn't shot well, but he commanded what was the best bench on the NBA by a mile this season.

RJ was supposed to be the athletic guy, and a 20 ppg scorer... furthermore, he was trumpeted by the coach as a potential defensive stopper... to say none of that happened is an understatement...

[DesignatedT]

That's just wrong.

Like it or not but Ginobili has been a huge disappointment this year and nearly as big as RJ.
He has been injured a lot these past years and the hope coming into this season was that he would nearly be back at his previous level.

After an half season, he isn't anywhere close to that level. i don't even see how it can be even debatable.

I agree that Ginobili isnt playing as well as we need him, there is no doubt about that.

That being said, The FO much anticipated a drop in production from TP,MG, and TD, and that is why they brought in RJ making 17 mil.

They would not have brought in Jefferson for that kind of money unless they thought he would be able to contribute on both ends of the floor and some nights even pick up the slack or lead the team in scoring and production. He has been by far the biggest disappointment.

[Bruno]

No way. Not even close. Unless you had some surreal expectations, I guess.

All star or near all star level for Ginobili was a surreal expectation?

[timvp]

That's just wrong.

Like it or not but Ginobili has been a huge disappointment this year and nearly as big as RJ.
He has been injured a lot these past years and the hope coming into this season was that he would nearly be back at his previous level.

After an half season, he isn't anywhere close to that level. i don't even see how it can be even debatable.

Guess we'll have to disagree. Manu's shooting is off but he's getting a lot more assists and is turning it over less. He's obviously not in his prime anymore but to compare his season to RJ isn't fair, IMO.

Personally, RJ figuring things out, the defense becoming elite and TP being able to find his second wind are bigger concerns than Manu's level of play. I mean, RJ is a below average player this year, TP went from having a PER higher than Manu last year to being way behind Manu this season and the defense just got exposed for the umpteenth time.

[ElNono]

All star or near all star level for Ginobili was a surreal expectation?

To me, it is. Much like expecting Duncan to have an all-defensive level...

He was a borderline All-Star in 2008 when he led the team in scoring...
Manu is the spark from the bench and an intangibles guy. RJ was supposed to be the athletic guy this year...

[timvp]

All star or near all star level for Ginobili was a surreal expectation?

Yes. With RJ and McDyess being added to the mix, there's no way Ginobili was going to have the touches to be at an All-Star level.

[Obstructed_View]

All star or near all star level for Ginobili was a surreal expectation?

Compared to the expectations for Parker going into this year? Yeah. Parker's been a far bigger disappointment than Manu, and possibly a bigger disappointment than Jefferson this year.

[redzero]

The Spurs need a real point guard to set their wing players up.

[ElNono]

Compared to the expectations for Parker going into this year? Yeah. Parker's been a far bigger disappointment than Manu, and possibly a bigger disappointment than Jefferson this year.

I agree. I think the FO knew that Duncan needed help, and they brought Dice, and Manu was not going to be a high flyer and they brought in RJ... I don't think they expected Tony needing a backup...

[DesignatedT]

IMO spurs need to just pony up get a true shot blocker and center like camby or haywood and go back to what has won them 4 championships, it cant get any worse than this. and i think tony manu rj duncan camby/haywood lineup with hill dice and blair off the bench can both excel offensively and defensively.

mason at the 4 is not going to improve the defense. it never will

[Bruno]

To me, it is. Much like expecting Duncan to have an all-defensive level...

He was a borderline All-Star in 2008 when he led the team in scoring...
Manu is the spark from the bench and an intangibles guy. RJ was supposed to be the athletic guy this year...

So I guess all the "big 3" talk is now BS if Manu is now just a player that will give you some good minutes against second units. I didn't get the memo that Manu went from future HOF to rich man Flip Murray...

[ElNono]

IMO spurs need to just pony up get a true shot blocker and center

You know, if we just want to try it, we have that Ratliff guy that we're supposedly saving for the playoffs (LOL) and averages no less than a block a game, and that other tall Frenchie who is a fouling machine but seems to be fairly decent protecting the rim. Maybe we could give them a little burn in the second or third quarter and see what happens... can't be worse than RJ or Manu at PF...

[DesignatedT]

You know, if we just want to try it, we have that Ratliff guy that we're supposedly saving for the playoffs (LOL) and averages no less than a block a game, and that other tall Frenchie who is a fouling machine but seems to be fairly decent protecting the rim. Maybe we could give them a little burn in the second or third quarter and see what happens... can't be worse than RJ or Manu at PF...

Lol. It should be interesting what the FO does. They have always made a move when we needed one so we will definitely be doing something imo. Should be pretty exciting 2nd half of the season, even if we go down in the gutter. im looking forward to seeing what happens. i refuse to believe that we just go into the gutter. no way duncan parker and manu let it happen.

[ElNono]

So I guess all the "big 3" talk is now BS if Manu is now just a player that will give you some good minutes against second units. I didn't get the memo that Manu went from future HOF to rich man Flip Murray...

Flip Murray can't command a bench and make everyone play... he's merely a chucker... but you knew that already...

Fact is, we score more than ever. We just can't stop anybody, and you can't pin that squarely on Ginobili...

[hsxvvd]

One of the interesting things I noticed in todays game, what that anytime he did anything remotely intangible, that is a stl/blk/reb etc, he ran the length of the court and jacked up a shot without even looking to pass it off, like he deserved a shot.

This is very "Milwaukee" like, and until we can shake this from his game, he has no value whatsoever.

[objective]

Manu hasn't been Manu, but he's had the excuse of coming back from surgery.

AND Manu has won games for the Spurs this year. Either with scoring, assists, defense, hustle plays (the OKC lunge) . . . RJ has been the bigger disappointment by far.

And Manu probably hasn't been as big a disappointment as Parker, no one was expecting that big a drop off from Tony, if any at all. Manu everyone knew was on the downslope easily. Tony should be in his prime.

[ElNono]

One of the interesting things I noticed in todays game, what that anytime he did anything remotely intangible, that is a stl/blk/reb etc, he ran the length of the court and jacked up a shot without even looking to pass it off, like he deserved a shot.

This is very "Milwaukee" like, and until we can shake this from his game, he has no value whatsoever.

I saw that... I even saw Tony asking for it and RJ not even looking at him...

That said, I can't believe Pop can call a play for Finley out of a timeout, but can't do that for RJ... RJ's softness on defense is inexcusable, but his lack of integration and offense I put partly on Pop. This is something we discussed since the season started, and has not changed. When he's out there with Tony and Tim, he's simply a spot up three point shooter... even Blair gets more touches than him...

[ElNono]

Manu hasn't been Manu, but he's had the excuse of coming back from surgery.

I don't put excuses. I think he had a bad game tonight, and overall, he has been underwhelming, especially his shooting. But I personally, didn't expect him to be at an All Star level, and honestly, I didn't think this team needed him to be at that level to win games. I also didn't think Tony needed to play at last season's level either, and carry such a big load. I thought with more talent, we would be more balanced. It just hasn't panned out.

[Obstructed_View]

So I guess all the "big 3" talk is now BS if Manu is now just a player that will give you some good minutes against second units. I didn't get the memo that Manu went from future HOF to rich man Flip Murray...

Especially when Manu is just a player that gives you some good minutes against second units and is still better than the only point guard on the roster.

[tp2021]

That's just wrong.

Like it or not but Ginobili has been a huge disappointment this year and nearly as big as RJ.
He has been injured a lot these past years and the hope coming into this season was that he would nearly be back at his previous level.

After an half season, he isn't anywhere close to that level. i don't even see how it can be even debatable.

Are you serious? Tony looks worse for wear than Manu.

[tp2021]

Can we call takebacks? I'd rather have Bruce, KT and Fab back at this point.

[Bruno]

Are you serious? Tony looks worse for wear than Manu.

Tony hasn't been great this season but he still has been better than Manu.

And there is the bigger picture. Tony has carry the team the whole last year. It's not crazy to think that he will face some rough moments. OTOH, Manu has been injured for 18 month. Even if it is not his fault, he let Spurs down 2 years in a row. It's not crazy to think that he could come back strong with a revenge.

The healthy Ginobili we are seeing is a damn average player. The magic is gone and I don't know if it will be back one day.

[Obstructed_View]

Tony hasn't been great this season but he still has been better than Manu.

:lol

[Bruno]

:lol

:rollin

[tp2021]

Tony hasn't been great this season but he still has been better than Manu.

No amount of message board arguing will convince either of us otherwise and I'm tired of reading arguments like that while my team is getting chode bloaded so we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Bruno]

No amount of message board arguing will convince either of us otherwise and I'm tired of reading arguments like that while my team is getting chode bloaded so we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

:lol
I like the "I'm better than that" when you are the one bringing the Manu vs. Tony argument. Priceless.

[Obstructed_View]

:lol
I like the "I'm better than that" when you are the one bringing the Manu vs. Tony argument. Priceless.

Uh, you were the first one to bring it up in a Richard Jefferson thread. The fact that Parker was worse tonight and has been a bigger disappointment than either Manu or RJ just makes it that much funnier.


Ginobili deserves nearly as much blame as Jefferson for what he is doing this year.

Anyway, that's the way ST is. Manu is perfect and it's never his fault.

[tp2021]

:lol
I like the "I'm better than that" when you are the one bringing the Manu vs. Tony argument. Priceless.

Its not a Tony vs Manu argument. I'm making light of the parallelism between them; injuries and how it has affected their games. This season, right now, Manu is playing like he is coming back from injury, and improving. Tony looks and is playing like he is still injured.

I could have just as easily said RJ, or especially Dice, look worse than Manu. But the two of them are just sucking; Tony and Manu have been affected by injury. You said


Like it or not but Ginobili has been a huge disappointment this year and nearly as big as RJ.
He has been injured a lot these past years and the hope coming into this season was that he would nearly be back at his previous level.

and I simply pointed out that as far as players affected by injuries go, Tony looks worse for wear than Manu. And at THAT point in the argument is where we disagree, which is what I said in my post before.

[Bruno]

The fact that Parker was worse tonight and has been a bigger disappointment than either Manu or RJ just makes it that much funnier.

Not a fact, it's your opinion.

[Bruno]

This season, right now, Manu is playing like he is coming back from injury, and improving.

12.1 ppg with a 38.7% FG% in January. I don't find he is improving.

[hsxvvd]

But let's not forget the point.... both TP > Dick & Manu > Dick.

[Obstructed_View]

Not a fact, it's your opinion.

Yeah, okay. :lol

[ezau]

Dick is a bust. At least Manu is trying while TP is playing through his injury. I feel sorry for Holt for opening his checkbook and getting this shitty play from Dick. Seriously, how much time does he need to gel with this team? What a fucking pussy

[Budkin]

RJ is night and day from what he was on the Nets and Bucks... he simply does not function in San Antonio. No way in hell he's still here next year.

[Ice009]

Tony hasn't been great this season but he still has been better than Manu.

And there is the bigger picture. Tony has carry the team the whole last year. It's not crazy to think that he will face some rough moments. OTOH, Manu has been injured for 18 month. Even if it is not his fault, he let Spurs down 2 years in a row. It's not crazy to think that he could come back strong with a revenge.

The healthy Ginobili we are seeing is a damn average player. The magic is gone and I don't know if it will be back one day.

Manu carried the team in 2008 because Parker was injured. I just wanted to make sure you knew that. Manu carried us pretty much that whole regular season and got hurt in the playoffs. That is not anyone's fault. The only questionable thing Manu did was play in the Olympics when he should have rested so really he has only cost us 1 down year, not 2 years like you and other people are saying.

[timaios]

I can't believe the Spurs didn't go after Ariza for the mid-level exception, who is a fantastic defender, and would fit perfectly on this team as the 4 or 5 option on offense!

The MLE was used for Blair & Dice !
The Spurs needed that money because with Oberto & Thomas gone they were without bigs except Tim Duncan (& Bonner).

[ezau]

fuck RJ

[Harry Callahan]

When your core players break down like they have here, there is not much you can do about it.

Manu had stretches in the 2007-2008 season where he was one of the five best players in the entire league and could carry the team for long stretches - a 44 point game in Cleveland comes to mind. He was unstoppable and dominant.

His injuries cropped up late in the year after some tough, grinding playoff series. The Spurs were toast. Manu has not been the player we saw in the 2007 season since that time.

TP had improved statistically for seven or eight years in a row and was our best player last year. Now he has broken down and is much worse than last season.

Duncan has been really good this year but is not getting the help he needs from his supporting cast (namely Manu and Tony) AT ALL.

Jefferson should change his number to 11 and his name to Williams. Actually Roy Williams may have had a slightly better season than Dick is having. That is definitely not a good thing. At least RJ is not going to be a T-MAC type of burden on the franchise since the crazy contract is up after next year. I don't think the Spurs FO did a bad job of putting the team together this year based on what the expected top four players had done in the past. Unfortunately, the expected performance has not come. There are tangible reasons Manu and Tony having surprisingly bad seasons. I'm totally puzzled by Jefferson being a big fat bust.

This team is going nowhere. The core is broken right now. You can't make a late season trade to fix it. The tradeable assets are not there. The Spurs as a group are either unable or unwilling to defend. The formula for success here for the last 13 years has been to make it extremely difficult to score a basket or get to the free throw line. In fact, some of the best Spurs teams in the Duncan era could have terrible offensive stretches, but the team D would save the day. This year the opposing FG percentage has got to be much higher than in other years.

Only Tony Parker out of the TD, MG, RJ, TP group has a chance to improve in the next 1-2 years because he can get well physically if he gets off his feet for three months. Gino and Duncan are not going to get better than what they are now. They are too old for that.

I am resigned to the fact that this nucleus has hit the wall and there is nowhere to go but down. You don't lose to Utah, Houston, and Chicago (average or below average teams) at home and expect to be any kind of force in April or May. Completely unacceptable. I guess I am so used to good effort AND execution I have a hard time computing what I am seeing now.

What a disappointing season so far. Fixing this mess is going to be a teardown, not a touching up of what's already here.

The ownership group is not going to be in the mood next year to pay a $10-20MM luxury tax bill for a bunch of past their prime players. This is just sad to see.

It is a distinct possibility that the Spurs get into the lottery this year so they better hang on to their #1 draft picks the next 3-4 years. Those picks could be very valuble.

If Tiago Splitter was worried about playing time here in San Antonio, he shouldn't. From what I've seen, he can come here and get plenty of minutes.

[kace]

i don't know what's the saddest in this thread:

- the fact that people are able to argue that tony isn't better than manu this year again (17.1 ppg ; 50% ; ratio assists/bad passes=4.6 for tony against 12.8 ppg/ 40% / ratio assists/bad passes= 3.5 for manu)

- that that was Timvp himself that brought the useless tony vs manu thing in a thread about RJ.

well, at least we should all agree that Tony, Manu and RJ need all three to play better.

[ezau]

When your core players break down like they have here, there is not much you can do about it.

Manu had stretches in the 2007-2008 season where he was one of the five best players in the entire league and could carry the team for long stretches - a 44 point game in Cleveland comes to mind. He was unstoppable and dominant.

His injuries cropped up late in the year after some tough, grinding playoff series. The Spurs were toast. Manu has not been the player we saw in the 2007 season since that time.

TP had improved statistically for seven or eight years in a row and was our best player last year. Now he has broken down and is much worse than last season.

Duncan has been really good this year but is not getting the help he needs from his supporting cast (namely Manu and Tony) AT ALL.

Jefferson should change his number to 11 and his name to Williams. Actually Roy Williams may have had a slightly better season than Dick is having. That is definitely not a good thing. At least RJ is not going to be a T-MAC type of burden on the franchise since the crazy contract is up after next year. I don't think the Spurs FO did a bad job of putting the team together this year based on what the expected top four players had done in the past. Unfortunately, the expected performance has not come. There are tangible reasons Manu and Tony having surprisingly bad seasons. I'm totally puzzled by Jefferson being a big fat bust.

This team is going nowhere. The core is broken right now. You can't make a late season trade to fix it. The tradeable assets are not there. The Spurs as a group are either unable or unwilling to defend. The formula for success here for the last 13 years has been to make it extremely difficult to score a basket or get to the free throw line. In fact, some of the best Spurs teams in the Duncan era could have terrible offensive stretches, but the team D would save the day. This year the opposing FG percentage has got to be much higher than in other years.

Only Tony Parker out of the TD, MG, RJ, TP group has a chance to improve in the next 1-2 years because he can get well physically if he gets off his feet for three months. Gino and Duncan are not going to get better than what they are now. They are too old for that.

I am resigned to the fact that this nucleus has hit the wall and there is nowhere to go but down. You don't lose to Utah, Houston, and Chicago (average or below average teams) at home and expect to be any kind of force in April or May. Completely unacceptable. I guess I am so used to good effort AND execution I have a hard time computing what I am seeing now.

What a disappointing season so far. Fixing this mess is going to be a teardown, not a touching up of what's already here.

The ownership group is not going to be in the mood next year to pay a $10-20MM luxury tax bill for a bunch of past their prime players. This is just sad to see.

It is a distinct possibility that the Spurs get into the lottery this year so they better hang on to their #1 draft picks the next 3-4 years. Those picks could be very valuble.

If Tiago Splitter was worried about playing time here in San Antonio, he shouldn't. From what I've seen, he can come here and get plenty of minutes.

Very well said.

[InK]

i don't know what's the saddest in this thread:

- the fact that people are able to argue that tony isn't better than manu this year again (17.1 ppg ; 50% ; ratio assists/bad passes=4.6 for tony against 12.8 ppg/ 40% / ratio assists/bad passes= 3.5 for manu)

- that that was Timvp himself that brought the useless tony vs manu thing in a thread about RJ.

well, at least we should all agree that Tony, Manu and RJ need all three to play better.

Meh, its pretty obvious the discussion isnt who is a better player this season; its about who has performed worst or better then expected.

[Pauleta14]

[quote=Ice009;4029649]Manu carried the team in 2008 because Parker was injured. I just wanted to make sure you knew that.

:wow:wow
:lol:lol:lol

Your are just re-writing history man!!

Manu was great that year, but he didn't "carried" the team ...
And Parker wasn't injured a long time!
Look at the stats!

[kace]

Meh, its pretty obvious the discussion isnt who is a better player this season; its about who has performed worst or better then expected.

that's clearly not what some posters wrote. read again.

i'm not even sure about who is underperforming the most considering what's expected from them, but still that's not what some posters meant.

[mountainballer]

sometimes it's best to accept a mistake and immediately focus on a damage control strategy rather than wait/hope for a miracle. (miracle would be that RJ suddenly starts to deliver at least half of what people expected/wished he will).
yes, even a desperation move will be better than going thru the season with RJ.
(sometimes it seems as if along with his poor performance he also brought in a culture of loosing to this team.)

some people will argue that RJ is untradeable at this point. I disagree to this. yes, currently he might be the most overpayed player in the whole league, but his contract would still fit several teams long term plans. especially if they have a 2011 plan.
and don't forget, half of this years salary has already been payed by the Spurs. his contract could be rated "almost expiring"
Pistons? team is for sale and it's no secrete they will want to get rid of the long term contracts, Hamilton's in the 1st place. they won't care much about records etc. in the next 2 seasons.
to focus on 2011 might be the best strategy for them.
they will get high lottery picks 2010 and 2011, know what Daye, Summer, Jerebko can bring and the core of Stuckey, Gordon and Villanueva will still be young (if they keep them) and they could become a major player in the 2011 free agency. IMO RJ would fit their plans, as long as Spurs take back contracts beyond 2011.

similar situation in Oakland. some weeks ago the Warriors would have loved to swap RJ for Maggette. maybe no longer, considering that the last weeks Maggette is playing like an all-star and RJ like Ron Mercer. but asking is still an option.

other teams that might focus on 2011, but still need moves to become a major FA player then: Sixers, Raptors, Hawks, Bobcats, Wizards.

[TJastal]

I'm just through watching the 1st quarter and the spurs have looked really sharp, Parker is playing brilliantly and looks like he's hardly bothered by his PF (either that or he's really good at hiding it), and the team is passing well (Dice even caught a Ginobili cross-court zinger and converted it!). So if nothing else this proves they CAN play at a high level.

And you know what? The bulls are just relentlessly clawing back at the spurs lead. They just can't miss a shot. Heinrich especially. If you look at how they are playing as of late I wouldn't take this loss too hard. Spurs just ran into a very hot team that is going through a phase. Heck, just last month they were talking about firing Del Negro, now they have strung together a bunch of victories and are almost back a .500.

The spurs obviously won't keep up the good vibes from the 1st quarter, and that's something they have had problems doing, and that's something they are going to have to fix. But at least we know they are able to play at a high level, sustaining that seems to be their downfall, which is fixable.

[Ice009]

[quote=Ice009;4029649]Manu carried the team in 2008 because Parker was injured. I just wanted to make sure you knew that.

:wow:wow
:lol:lol:lol

Your are just re-writing history man!!

Manu was great that year, but he didn't "carried" the team ...
And Parker wasn't injured a long time!
Look at the stats!

Well he carried the Spurs when TP was out and was the best player on the team during that whole regular season.

Is that not true?

[Brazil]

Everybody has been a big disappointment.

For me the biggest one is not RJ, TP, Manu, Dice etc... the biggest one is POP, I don't like the way he is coaching the young guys, I don't like the minutes management, the fucking experiment, the "I don't know what to expect when I give minutes to Blair", the "Hill is my favorite player, wth ?", the "I don't want to see that TP needs to be rested", the "I let 2 of my big 3 concerned by their future", the "no no no I don't want to give a chance to Ian and Hairston..." stuborn. I can give 10000 examples.


My personnal list:
1- Pop

2- Dice. I really expected much more, I expected him to be the second big capable to help Tim and to give him a rest. Tim is the most important piece of the team and he has to carry the load due to the lack of back up.
3- RJ for sure
4- TP and Manu for me it's a tie. Manu shooting is awful, he helps the team by his passing, his energy but he is hurting with his shooting. TP is way below expectation but at least he is improving.

the rest is at expected level or above expectation: Blair / Mase / Hill mainly

[Ice009]

Great post Brazil. I agree with most of it.

[SpurNation]

I kept hoping to see a change. A deliverance. A team that eventually bonds together and plays cohesively strong into the playoffs.

That hope is deminishing with each passing game. It seems that instead of at least two steps forward and one step back...this team takes a step forward and two steps back.

Unfortunately this team's hope lies in the rodeo schedule to generate some sembalence of continuity and development to be at the least a playoff team much less championship caliber.

A true definition of "WASTE" if that were the case regarding RJ's contract.

[ElNono]

I can't believe the Spurs didn't go after Ariza for the mid-level exception, who is a fantastic defender, and would fit perfectly on this team as the 4 or 5 option on offense!

Ariza wanted touches... that's why he left LA... I'm not sure he would have had the role he wanted with us...

[neboat]

I think in order to fix the RJ situation, he should be coming off the bench, and here's why:

-He doesn't play well with TD. RJ is not a consistent 3 pt threat...not even a good mid range shooter..so that means he can't benefit from TD's kick outs, which usually turns into an open outside shot opportunity.

-He doesn't play well with TP. On fast breaks Parker's usually looks to score himself...I can't remember once this season where RJ finished a Parker lead fast break.

-RJ needs a defined and expanded role. He can be a leader on the 2nd unit...have more touches, more responsibilities. RJ is an energy type player...hopefully his defensively intensity will pick up if he's more involved in the game. Also, if he's not able to provide as much as we'd like on the defensive end, then we better maximize his offensive contribution, which I think he can when he's not on the court with TD and TP.

[kace]

Everybody has been a big disappointment.

For me the biggest one is not RJ, TP, Manu, Dice etc... the biggest one is POP, I don't like the way he is coaching the young guys, I don't like the minutes management, the fucking experiment, the "I don't know what to expect when I give minutes to Blair", the "Hill is my favorite player, wth ?", the "I don't want to see that TP needs to be rested", the "I let 2 of my big 3 concerned by their future", the "no no no I don't want to give a chance to Ian and Hairston..." stuborn. I can give 10000 examples.


My personnal list:
1- Pop

2- Dice. I really expected much more, I expected him to be the second big capable to help Tim and to give him a rest. Tim is the most important piece of the team and he has to carry the load due to the lack of back up.
3- RJ for sure
4- TP and Manu for me it's a tie. Manu shooting is awful, he helps the team by his passing, his energy but he is hurting with his shooting. TP is way below expectation but at least he is improving.

the rest is at expected level or above expectation: Blair / Mase / Hill mainly

good list.

We used to be only worried by health these last years. Now, we have basically all our players healthy (only TP is hampered, and i'm not sure how bad it is or if it will still be here for PO) and still, that doesn't work. Strange, new and unpleasant feeling.

[diego]

And there is the bigger picture. Tony has carry the team the whole last year. It's not crazy to think that he will face some rough moments. OTOH, Manu has been injured for 18 month. Even if it is not his fault, he let Spurs down 2 years in a row. It's not crazy to think that he could come back strong with a revenge.


tony carry the whole team? that bum tim duncan too?
if that was "carry the whole team", then manu did the same in 07-08, and he "face some rough moments" after.
manu was injured for 18 months? Because on NBA.com he is listed for 44 games in 08-09.

this is retarded. both are having bad seasons and there isnt anything else to say about it. the spurs problem is defense. rj and dyess are making us yearn for finley and bonner and pop has lost the reins.


big 3 07-08
tim
19.3 ppg, 11.3 reb, 2.8 ast, 2 blk, 2.3 to, %50/0/73

manu
19.5 ppg, 4.5 ast, 4.8 reb, 1.5 stl, 2.7 to, %46/40/86

tony
18.8 ppg, 6 ast, 3.2 reb, 2.4 to, %50/26/71


big 3 08-09
tim
19.3 ppg, 10.7 reb, 3.5 ast, 1.7 blk, 2.2 to, %50/0/69

manu
15.5 ppg, 3.6 ast, 4.5 reb, 1.5 stl, 2 to, %45/33/88

tony
22ppg, 6.9 ast, 3.1 reb, 2.6 to, %50/29/78

note: in the seasons manu and tony "carried the whole team", they each played less games than tim. :lol

[jermaine]

Jefferson is good at what he does! Now what he don't do is create for himself, play great defense, spot up shooting! Now also you have to look at Pop cuz he wants everyone to be Finely. He calls a back door screen for Jefferson onces every gm an Jefferson makes good on it everytime.The Spurs front office signed Jefferson watching J.Kidd highlights. Asking him to do what their asking is like asking a ice skater to roller skate. Yea he can do it but that's not his strengths. Tell Pop dumb ass he is a SF & run plays to set him up more often an I'll bet he shines. Bruce is gone people, so quit wishing Jefferson, Bogans, or Hill is him. Let's quit the Jefferson bashing cuz he's not goin anywhere for awhile. If we gone play smallball then hire a smallball coach an we'll be better. Pop wanna play big boy plays with small players!(I hope yal get what I'm saying). Pop is our biggest weakness! 2 shotblockers on the bench goin to waste!

[Obstructed_View]

Everybody has been a big disappointment.

For me the biggest one is not RJ, TP, Manu, Dice etc... the biggest one is POP, I don't like the way he is coaching the young guys, I don't like the minutes management, the fucking experiment, the "I don't know what to expect when I give minutes to Blair", the "Hill is my favorite player, wth ?", the "I don't want to see that TP needs to be rested", the "I let 2 of my big 3 concerned by their future", the "no no no I don't want to give a chance to Ian and Hairston..." stuborn. I can give 10000 examples.


My personnal list:
1- Pop

2- Dice. I really expected much more, I expected him to be the second big capable to help Tim and to give him a rest. Tim is the most important piece of the team and he has to carry the load due to the lack of back up.
3- RJ for sure
4- TP and Manu for me it's a tie. Manu shooting is awful, he helps the team by his passing, his energy but he is hurting with his shooting. TP is way below expectation but at least he is improving.

the rest is at expected level or above expectation: Blair / Mase / Hill mainly

I agree 100 percent. :toast

[mountainballer]

Jefferson is good at what he does! Now what he don't do is create for himself, play great defense, spot up shooting! Now also you have to look at Pop cuz he wants everyone to be Finely. He calls a back door screen for Jefferson onces every gm an Jefferson makes good on it everytime.The Spurs front office signed Jefferson watching J.Kidd highlights. Asking him to do what their asking is like asking a ice skater to roller skate. Yea he can do it but that's not his strengths. Tell Pop dumb ass he is a SF & run plays to set him up more often an I'll bet he shines. Bruce is gone people, so quit wishing Jefferson, Bogans, or Hill is him. Let's quit the Jefferson bashing cuz he's not goin anywhere for awhile. If we gone play smallball then hire a smallball coach an we'll be better. Pop wanna play big boy plays with small players!(I hope yal get what I'm saying). Pop is our biggest weakness! 2 shotblockers on the bench goin to waste!

so it's outrageous to ask RJ to play defense? at least try? to leave his blood out there, especially if for whatever reason the other parts of the game don't click?
weird post. the coach is blame because he dares to ask more than one trick from a pony that pockets 15 million per year.

[jermaine]

so it's outrageous to ask RJ to play defense? at least try? to leave his blood out there, especially if for whatever reason the other parts of the game don't click?
weird post. the coach is blame because he dares to ask more than one trick from a pony that pockets 15 million per year.

No I'm nit saying that. I'm talking about his offense. Has he ever been know for his defense? I didn't watch him like that so I don't know! I'm just saying our "Bruce" days are over.

[ElNono]

so it's outrageous to ask RJ to play defense? at least try? to leave his blood out there, especially if for whatever reason the other parts of the game don't click?
weird post. the coach is blame because he dares to ask more than one trick from a pony that pockets 15 million per year.

There's nothing weird about that post. When Tony, Manu or Timmy are not doing well on defense, they try to make up for it on the other end, and most of the time they do. It's a lot harder for a guy like RJ that simply doesn't have the ball in his hands. We're halfway into the season, and we're still not calling plays for Richard. The team basically developed two plays for him: A jumper off a screen (a la Finley) or that Alley-Oop play that they run twice a game and they only execute properly once every 5 games. It doesn't matter what are you paying. RJ has never been a spot up shooter nor a great defender. I don't know why the FO thought they could change his game now.

[neboat]

There's nothing weird about that post. When Tony, Manu or Timmy are not doing well on defense, they try to make up for it on the other end, and most of the time they do. It's a lot harder for a guy like RJ that simply doesn't have the ball in his hands. We're halfway into the season, and we're still not calling plays for Richard. The team basically developed two plays for him: A jumper off a screen (a la Finley) or that Alley-Oop play that they run twice a game and they only execute properly once every 5 games. It doesn't matter what are you paying. RJ has never been a spot up shooter nor a great defender. I don't know why the FO thought they could change his game now.

so let's have him come off the bench so he can be more of the focal point

[peskypesky]

hes terrible. i would rather roger mason play than him. and im not even joking. the guy is complete garbage.

he has spent his whole career in the open court, and he can do that. but, thats not what we do here.

all he is, is a spot up shooter that plays no defense whatsoever, and we have a better version of that on the bench in rmj

i hate to say it, cause i was ecstatic when we signed him, but this.

[ElNono]

so let's have him come off the bench so he can be more of the focal point

I'm not sure that would work either... I think we would need to tweak our offense to get him involved more, but I don't think Pop wants to do any of that...

[SpurNation]

There's nothing weird about that post. When Tony, Manu or Timmy are not doing well on defense, they try to make up for it on the other end, and most of the time they do. It's a lot harder for a guy like RJ that simply doesn't have the ball in his hands. We're halfway into the season, and we're still not calling plays for Richard. The team basically developed two plays for him: A jumper off a screen (a la Finley) or that Alley-Oop play that they run twice a game and they only execute properly once every 5 games. It doesn't matter what are you paying. RJ has never been a spot up shooter nor a great defender. I don't know why the FO thought they could change his game now.

My thought (when I first heard that Jefferson was coming to the Spurs) was that they were going to implement a different offensive strategy utelizing RJ's strengths.

Not knowing how Manu would return? Having someone that could run with Tony on fast breaks? Having someone that could help in the rebounding department from the SF position? Changing the offense to suit the strengths of the players on the team?

That hasn't happened. And I don't think it's entirely RJ's fault given what his strengths and more importantly (weaknesses are). But it's been a huge waste of money up to this point and that's what's so discouraging.

[Bukefal]

Everybody has been a big disappointment.

For me the biggest one is not RJ, TP, Manu, Dice etc... the biggest one is POP, I don't like the way he is coaching the young guys, I don't like the minutes management, the fucking experiment, the "I don't know what to expect when I give minutes to Blair", the "Hill is my favorite player, wth ?", the "I don't want to see that TP needs to be rested", the "I let 2 of my big 3 concerned by their future", the "no no no I don't want to give a chance to Ian and Hairston..." stuborn. I can give 10000 examples.


My personnal list:
1- Pop

2- Dice. I really expected much more, I expected him to be the second big capable to help Tim and to give him a rest. Tim is the most important piece of the team and he has to carry the load due to the lack of back up.
3- RJ for sure
4- TP and Manu for me it's a tie. Manu shooting is awful, he helps the team by his passing, his energy but he is hurting with his shooting. TP is way below expectation but at least he is improving.

the rest is at expected level or above expectation: Blair / Mase / Hill mainly

Yeah, TP is improving over the last games, I mean he was much worse at the beginning of the season. He isnt doing so bad you know, by looking at his numbers. I couldnt see the game so I dont know exactly how he played, but he shouldnt get so much blame, especially when he is working is ass off and is still doing quite better.

And as for RJ, I dont know what to say, I find it a shame, he was the guy we had so much hopes from when he got signed and now, it isn't working out. That sucks big time.

[temujin]

Jefferson is the NEGATION of what a Spur should be.

I wrote this the first minute I watched him play.
A born loser.

He is simply incomparable to any other Spur, including the underachieving McDyess.
Any discussion on that is simply irrelevant.

I haven't seen the Chicago game yet, but it looks like this has been the lowest point in a season that had no highs.

However, it is not HIS fault if he is still playing.
Defense is just a matter of legs, character, attitude and good will.
He seems to have legs, none of the other features.

This is on Pop: while waiting to trade him ASAP, at ANY cost, Pop should just bench him for good.

Or this team is NOT going to make the playoffs.
As simple as that.

[temujin]

My thought (when I first heard that Jefferson was coming to the Spurs) was that they were going to implement a different offensive strategy utelizing RJ's strengths.

Not knowing how Manu would return? Having someone that could run with Tony on fast breaks? Having someone that could help in the rebounding department from the SF position? Changing the offense to suit the strengths of the players on the team?

That hasn't happened. And I don't think it's entirely RJ's fault given what his strengths and more importantly (weaknesses are). But it's been a huge waste of money up to this point and that's what's so discouraging.

Jefferson only strength is his outragious contract.

[jermaine]

My thought (when I first heard that Jefferson was coming to the Spurs) was that they were going to implement a different offensive strategy utelizing RJ's strengths.

Not knowing how Manu would return? Having someone that could run with Tony on fast breaks? Having someone that could help in the rebounding department from the SF position? Changing the offense to suit the strengths of the players on the team?

That hasn't happened. And I don't think it's entirely RJ's fault given what his strengths and more importantly (weaknesses are). But it's been a huge waste of money up to this point and that's what's so discouraging.

This is what you do! Get in touch with Pop, let him know Jefferson is a SF not Pf an run a shit load of plays for him since we've paid so much for him. We couldve went an got someone from the D-league to find a spot up shooter for millions less! That's what you do.

[it's me]

WTF??? isn't it about Dick??? stop with the Manu Vs Tony crap.... both suck lately.

[EmptyMan]

I like how RJ's post game we heard so much about, is demanding the ball - backing down opponent 2 feet - and settling for a 10 ft. fade-away.

[Trimble87]

Bruno, I'm coming in really late to this thread :P, I think the major point you're missing in the Jefferson vs. Manu argument is that Manu has at least been putting forth the effort. Hes been laying out on plays, driving the lane, finding passing lanes and just being active. I completely agree that he has been a dissapointment this season, particularly on the defensive end, but its clearly not due to lack of effort. While RJ seems to contribute nothing when hes not scoring, he shows almost no effort and he does not try on defense.

Ill take a struggling Manu who is trying over a struggling Jefferson who is complacent any day.

...just my two cents.

[MannyIsGod]

That's just wrong.

Like it or not but Ginobili has been a huge disappointment this year and nearly as big as RJ.
He has been injured a lot these past years and the hope coming into this season was that he would nearly be back at his previous level.

After an half season, he isn't anywhere close to that level. i don't even see how it can be even debatable.

No - this is completely wrong. I'm not sure which level headed Spurs fan thought we'd ever see 2005 Manu again and I'd venture to say this is exactly what anyone who knew anything expected out of him.

If you expected more then you were delusional.

[MannyIsGod]

All star or near all star level for Ginobili was a surreal expectation?

Yes

[z0sa]

I'm not making any decisions concerning "who's been more of a disappointment", but I'm with Bruno on Manu's predicted potential being at a near all-star level again. That's what we were expecting from him last season before he officially broke. And, if the consensus truly is that he has fallen to role player status, then trading him while his expiring is most valuable is the move to make.

[in2deep]

RJ sucks...he should come off the bench where he can have more freedom and expand his offensive game and go against the opponent's bench players. However, I am not sure what we can do about his horrible defense...he's as bad as Finley.

this is right on spot.

[Das Texan]

If we had Dick Jefferson not being a total asshat disappointment, Manu's slowing production (scoring wise especially) wouldnt be that big of a deal.


Manu as the 4th option is more than good enough, adding in his improved passing skills this year and we would be fine.

Dick being totally useless is probably reason A that we are as bad as we are this year.

[T2150]

RJ looks a little heavy. I think he needs to shed 15 to 20 pounds so he can be what he once was... 20 less pounds on him would go a long way I believe... http://i27.tinypic.com/10o401h.jpg

[TJastal]

RJ looks a little heavy. I think he needs to shed 15 to 20 pounds so he can be what he once was... 20 less pounds on him would go a long way I believe... http://i27.tinypic.com/10o401h.jpg

Could be.

[temujin]

Spurs spend 20 millions for Jefferson and papa McDyess,

and the problem is Ginobili.

This is just so wonderful.

[Brazil]

Yeah, TP is improving over the last games, I mean he was much worse at the beginning of the season. He isnt doing so bad you know, by looking at his numbers. I couldnt see the game so I dont know exactly how he played, but he shouldnt get so much blame, especially when he is working is ass off and is still doing quite better.

And as for RJ, I dont know what to say, I find it a shame, he was the guy we had so much hopes from when he got signed and now, it isn't working out. That sucks big time.


Regarding TP the most positive thing is the decrease of TOs, the limitation of his FGAs and I think his passing is better.

Now Pop is stupid by playing him huge minutes in the first half when the guy is struggling physically !

[Bruno]

No - this is completely wrong. I'm not sure which level headed Spurs fan thought we'd ever see 2005 Manu again and I'd venture to say this is exactly what anyone who knew anything expected out of him.

If you expected more then you were delusional.

2008 Ginobili (before his injuries) was damn great, it was a little different than 2005 Ginobili but it was as good if not better. Manu was on the 3rd all-NBA team that year.

I was expecting that Manu was finally 100% healthy this year and that he would be back at a level quite close to his 2008 one. When you compare both, 2008 Ginobili was an hungry lion and the 2010 is a sweet kitty. Manu is doing some cute things this year (like his assists) but he is nowhere near the level he had before his injuries 18 months ago.

You can call me delusional but it was what I expected from Manu and I'm very disappointed right now by how little he brings to the team.

[rascal]

No way. Not even close. Unless you had some surreal expectations, I guess.
I mean, losing his athleticism was expected, but nobody expected him to make up for it by being the de-facto reserve PG on the team. He hasn't shot well, but he commanded what was the best bench on the NBA by a mile this season.

RJ was supposed to be the athletic guy, and a 20 ppg scorer... furthermore, he was trumpeted by the coach as a potential defensive stopper... to say none of that happened is an understatement...

No way RJ was suppose to be a 20 ppg scorer as the 4'th option on the spurs. RJ is athletic but he is not the type of player that can create his own shots out of set defenses. He needs to run in the open court. Too bad the spurs don't like to get out and run and use his athleticism.

He was a bad fit for the type of offense the spurs run and he is not a good defensive player, never was.

[hater]

Spurs spend 20 millions for Jefferson and papa McDyess,

and the problem is Ginobili.

This is just so wonderful.

:lol

[TJastal]

Spurs spend 20 millions for Jefferson and papa McDyess,

and the problem is Ginobili.

This is just so wonderful.

Got the sandy vagina problem again, eh?

[rascal]

I'm not making any decisions concerning "who's been more of a disappointment", but I'm with Bruno on Manu's predicted potential being at a near all-star level again. That's what we were expecting from him last season before he officially broke. And, if the consensus truly is that he has fallen to role player status, then trading him while his expiring is most valuable is the move to make.

Manu is no where near all star level. Never really was. He has had some nice runs from time to time but too inconsistent to be considered an all star. One gift all star appearance when others who did not make the team that year had better stats and never again to an all star team.


He doesn't get all star minutes and doesn't put up all star stats. This board has overrated him.

[dbreiden83080]

Jefferson has been so bad this year, i am shocked at how little an impact he has made.. This fuckin guy is making 14 mil this year, and he just is lousy..

[ElNono]

Manu is no where near all star level. Never really was. He has had some nice runs from time to time but too inconsistent to be considered an all star. One gift all star appearance when others who did not make the team that year had better stats and never again to an all star team.

He doesn't get all star minutes and doesn't put up all star stats. This board has overrated him.

:lmao

[SCdac]

It's just a shame that we've needed, specifically, an athletic Small Forward for years and years, and now that we have one he's not being used effectively and/or he's not able to play himself into a defined role in our system. I mean, it's not like Jefferson plays bad games entirely - he's made some athletic plays on help-D and just 13 days ago he hit the game winning shot against a team that's had our number recently - he's just not versatile enough to be more than a scorer. Half the reason Pop targeted Jefferson was BECAUSE he has a decent jumper (40% from beyond last season, 80% from the stripe), and when we acquired him we also heard Pop mention the option of posting RJ up. Unfortunately that option has vanished quickly, and RJ has become mostly a catch-and-shoot kind of player with not many (if any) plays run for him. Not to mention, he comes here and probably plays more minutes as a Power Forward than he has in the last few seasons combined - that's asking for trouble, considering he's brand new to our system. Jefferson is not a Gerald Wallace or a Shawn Marion, hell I'd say give him more minutes at the 2 than the 4 - give us the advantage for once. Playing with size for 48 minutes of a game, that's not even Spurs basketball anymore. :(

[KuntryDude]

at least Rasho Nesterovic was a true center...

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[5in10]

Manu hasn't played real bball since 2008 give him some time, to me its still to early to judge him. I think hell be back to the efficient(at least shooting wise) manu we know and love by the end of the season.

[pookenstein]

Made a little jpeg to express my feelings towards Jefferson.
Couldn't upload the pic into my post (for whatever reasons), so i put it in my sig. (hint: it's not the Timmy-gif:lol)

[TJastal]

Made a little jpeg to express my feelings towards Jefferson.
Couldn't upload the pic into my post (for whatever reasons), so i put it in my sig. (hint: it's not the Timmy-gif:lol)

Your a riot.

[pookenstein]

Your a riot.

Naah, just extremely pissed with our overall situation.

[antgomez2009]

This is just horrible!

14 million, and producing less then bogans at times! :bang

I mean, i hope its becaue he is hurt like others are saying, but even then, Parker is playing with the plantar injury, and is trying as much as he can to be sub par or produce what the team needs!

Tim looks fatigue and slow, and he is my favorite player! But he has heart that will carry him and his fundamentals for a while!

Manu, is busting his but out there, but his cluthness is not what it used to be! Still take Manu more then 75% of the league.

everyone else just needs to step up!!!!!!! Including the big three!

I think they def. need to make a trade for some long defensive players and a true center! IMO!!

Defense and killer instinct is lacking big time!!!!

WE NEED A TRADE!!!!!

or Everyone not named Duncan needs to really step their game up!!!!

[in2deep]

dude sucks

[Brazil]

from ken berger. Midseason report.

Most Overrated: Richard Jefferson (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/players/playerpage/240295/richardjefferson), Spurs. It turns out Carter wasn't the only ex-Net who didn't have the expected impact on his new team. The Spurs have been slow to figure out how to best take advantage of R.J.'s abilities as a slasher and transition threat. In turn, Jefferson has been slow to figure it out, too.

[NFGIII]

As of now I would like for RJ to come off the bench against 2nd units. Though I've seen TP improve his court vision and thereby his passing I believe that Manu would be a better team mate for RJ at this time. Frankly what do we have to lose?

start Mase at the 3 and see what happens. But that lineup is a little on the small side, too. (I wont go into the Ian/Malik situation since Pop would have to be fired or threatened by Holt to play them) Damn IMO it's most likely too late to drastically change the rotations and be successful but something has to give here. This team will not contend for a title as it stands.

I've been one of those that has been waiting for the corporate knowledge and chemistry "thing" to gel as well as the RR trip experience to finally bring this team together but so far not much has happened.

So disappointing right now. :depressed

[spurtilldeath]

2008 Ginobili (before his injuries) was damn great, it was a little different than 2005 Ginobili but it was as good if not better. Manu was on the 3rd all-NBA team that year.

I was expecting that Manu was finally 100% healthy this year and that he would be back at a level quite close to his 2008 one. When you compare both, 2008 Ginobili was an hungry lion and the 2010 is a sweet kitty. Manu is doing some cute things this year (like his assists) but he is nowhere near the level he had before his injuries 18 months ago.

You can call me delusional but it was what I expected from Manu and I'm very disappointed right now by how little he brings to the team.


Looks like you are in minority here. While we all would love to have 2008 and prior version of Manu, we all, atleast most ST folks knew that Manu was not going to be elite. Like TimVP said earlier, Manu, even in games that he cant score effectively, does hustle, rebound, assist and try to defend. And more importantly, he still hasn't lost his skill of play making and brings intangibles to the table every game.

RJ on the other hand, has no injury excuse and the only factor was him being new to the system. While most of us knew he may not score as much as he did before, we expected him to defend better. To be generous, he is simply mediocre in his defense. And that is more disappointing than Manu's play.

[kace]

Looks like you are in minority here. While we all would love to have 2008 and prior version of Manu, we all, atleast most ST folks knew that Manu was not going to be elite. Like TimVP said earlier, Manu, even in games that he cant score effectively, does hustle, rebound, assist and try to defend. And more importantly, he still hasn't lost his skill of play making and brings intangibles to the table every game.


no, he's not. manu's fanbase is always the most vocal, that's all.

manu's intangibles are always brought to the rescue when the stats are obviously against him, even if of course the stats don't say the whole thing.

Manu is very far from what we need from him. Look at his FG %. And as for his assists, his ratio assists/bad passes isn't very good (clearly lower that tony's one this year, even if tony's one is itself a lot lower than previous years, and not really different from the previous years for manu).

His amazing and flashy passes and the fact that he looks more for passes shouldn't be deceptive about his overall passing game or some supposed increased skills in this area.

[spurtilldeath]

no, he's not. manu's fanbase is always the most vocal, that's all.

manu's intangibles are always brought to the rescue when the stats are obviously against him, even if of course the stats don't say the whole thing.

Manu is very far from what we need from him. Look at his FG %. And as for his assists, his ratio assists/bad passes isn't very good (clearly lower that tony's one this year, even if tony's one is itself a lot lower than previous years, and not really different from the previous years for manu).

His amazing and flashy passes and the fact that he looks more for passes shouldn't be deceptive about his overall passing game or some supposed increased skills in this area.

I didnt mean that Manu is not playing well. I agree that he is under performing. But I'm saying he is less of a liability compared to RJ(I dont want to compare to Tony because Tony has an injury reason for not being effective.) RJ absolutely has no reason to not defend well or even try to rebound the ball.

[kace]

I didnt mean that Manu is not playing well. I agree that he is under performing. But I'm saying he is less of a liability compared to RJ(I dont want to compare to Tony because Tony has an injury reason for not being effective.) RJ absolutely has no reason to not defend well or even try to rebound the ball.

i would say they're having the same season more or less.

but manu's has been able to give some sparks from the bench that have provided some runs for the team in some games and so that have been huge for us whereas RJ was almost always a non-factor.

[DesignatedT]

manu hasnt been as good as we all would like. but the FO, assumed this would happen. thats why they brought in RJ. we didnt bring him in to just be a "role player" he is supposed to have all-star nights himself.

[temujin]

2008 Ginobili (before his injuries) was damn great, it was a little different than 2005 Ginobili but it was as good if not better. Manu was on the 3rd all-NBA team that year.

I was expecting that Manu was finally 100% healthy this year and that he would be back at a level quite close to his 2008 one. When you compare both, 2008 Ginobili was an hungry lion and the 2010 is a sweet kitty. Manu is doing some cute things this year (like his assists) but he is nowhere near the level he had before his injuries 18 months ago.

You can call me delusional but it was what I expected from Manu and I'm very disappointed right now by how little he brings to the team.

I am afraid that it is what the team -so to speak- brings to him that matters, from now on.

[temujin]

Got the sandy vagina problem again, eh?

I don't know about, but I'am humble and take it from an expert.

[temujin]

no, he's not. manu's fanbase is always the most vocal, that's all.

manu's intangibles are always brought to the rescue when the stats are obviously against him, even if of course the stats don't say the whole thing.

Manu is very far from what we need from him. Look at his FG %. And as for his assists, his ratio assists/bad passes isn't very good (clearly lower that tony's one this year, even if tony's one is itself a lot lower than previous years, and not really different from the previous years for manu).

His amazing and flashy passes and the fact that he looks more for passes shouldn't be deceptive about his overall passing game or some supposed increased skills in this area.

Too bad he is passing to McDyess, and not to you.
Tha ratio would have been better.

[temujin]

Quite onestly, I think Richard Jefferson is worth more or less DerMarr Johnson.

[cd98]

Richard Jefferson is a good player. He's never been a top player in this league, so I'm not sure what people expected. He's capable of averaging 18+points on a bad team, and 13 points on a good team. His defense is suspect at times. Pretty much what I would have said about him before the trade. People here seem to have had high hopes. Didn't you watch him as a Net? A Buck?

[spurtilldeath]

Richard Jefferson is a good player. He's never been a top player in this league, so I'm not sure what people expected. He's capable of averaging 18+points on a bad team, and 13 points on a good team. His defense is suspect at times. Pretty much what I would have said about him before the trade. People here seem to have had high hopes. Didn't you watch him as a Net? A Buck?


It is not what we saw, it is what Pop said once we got RJ and his expectation that RJ would play decent defense. You think FO didn't do its homework right?

[Johnny RIngo]

Richard Jefferson is a good player. He's never been a top player in this league, so I'm not sure what people expected. He's capable of averaging 18+points on a bad team, and 13 points on a good team. His defense is suspect at times. Pretty much what I would have said about him before the trade. People here seem to have had high hopes. Didn't you watch him as a Net? A Buck?

They expected a player that would impact games. Hill and Blair play a bigger role in our wins than Jefferson does. Pretty embarassing when you consider the kind of hype Jefferson had coming into the team.

[Bukefal]

Regarding TP the most positive thing is the decrease of TOs, the limitation of his FGAs and I think his passing is better.

Now Pop is stupid by playing him huge minutes in the first half when the guy is struggling physically !

Yeah I agree, he should get rest, but that's the thing, I don't think we can afford to rest him so much, without even more increasing damage to our results. We need him, even if he isn't 100% he is still very important, he has shown that even more over the recent games.

[Bukefal]

from ken berger. Midseason report.

Most Overrated: Richard Jefferson (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/players/playerpage/240295/richardjefferson), Spurs. It turns out Carter wasn't the only ex-Net who didn't have the expected impact on his new team. The Spurs have been slow to figure out how to best take advantage of R.J.'s abilities as a slasher and transition threat. In turn, Jefferson has been slow to figure it out, too.'

:depressed it's such a shame it isnt working out (yet).

[crc21209]

This is just horrible!

14 million, and producing less then bogans at times! :bang

I mean, i hope its becaue he is hurt like others are saying, but even then, Parker is playing with the plantar injury, and is trying as much as he can to be sub par or produce what the team needs!

Tim looks fatigue and slow, and he is my favorite player! But he has heart that will carry him and his fundamentals for a while!

Manu, is busting his but out there, but his cluthness is not what it used to be! Still take Manu more then 75% of the league.

everyone else just needs to step up!!!!!!! Including the big three!

I think they def. need to make a trade for some long defensive players and a true center! IMO!!

Defense and killer instinct is lacking big time!!!!

WE NEED A TRADE!!!!!

or Everyone not named Duncan needs to really step their game up!!!!

For the millionth time....RJ isnt the only and main problem. The problem is Pop going with a crunch-time line-up of Parker, Mason, Hill, Manu, and TD. That is the main problem right there. This small-ball shit isnt going to cut it....and the Spurs are lacking production in the front court.

[Brazil]

Yeah I agree, he should get rest, but that's the thing, I don't think we can afford to rest him so much, without even more increasing damage to our results. We need him, even if he isn't 100% he is still very important, he has shown that even more over the recent games.

I'm not saying not playing him but at least limit his minutes during the first half to have him fresh for the second half.

[Scola]

MY GOD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

26:03 Mins, 1-8 FG, 0-2 FTs, -14 +/-, 2 Reb, 0 Ast, ***2 Pts***

It's not even the playoffs and this guy is choking like this, we should of just traded for Captain Jack. :| These are Dark Times...

[poop]

i think RJ would be best in a run and shoot phoenix suns/ golden state/knicks kind of offense...in a deliberate half court setting he seems to be impotent

[Slippy]

I was expecting that Manu was finally 100% healthy this year and that he would be back at a level quite close to his 2008 one. When you compare both, 2008 Ginobili was an hungry lion and the 2010 is a sweet kitty. Manu is doing some cute things this year (like his assists) but he is nowhere near the level he had before his injuries 18 months ago.

You can call me delusional but it was what I expected from Manu and I'm very disappointed right now by how little he brings to the team



Manu stepping up in the passing department is cute and he brings little ? Un-real. You're seeing the game differently to many here. Manu's passing and play-making this season has been beautiful to watch.

The true meaning of cute is ugly but interesting. Manu's scoring is down but he's contributing other ways that arn't as pretty as scoring. Remember, this Spurs team has won being ugly. When i see him dive for a loseball, hustle for a steal, fight for position against bigger SF's and PF's or put his body on the line for a charge. I see a guy trying his guts out. It makes it easy to overlook his scoring. I see a guy that only cares about helping his team to a win. When i see his teammates down on their scoring but doing nothing else to help their team it's a lot harder to digest.

You are delusional. Your emphasis on Tony, scoring and all star numbers is probably why.

[Bruno]

Anyway, that's the way ST is. Manu is perfect and it's never his fault.

[ZB 512]

and to think that Richard Jefferson's contract is double Shawn Marion's contract

[kace]

Manu stepping up in the passing department is cute and he brings little ? Un-real. You're seeing the game differently to many here. Manu's passing and play-making this season has been beautiful to watch.

The true meaning of cute is ugly but interesting. Manu's scoring is down but he's contributing other ways that arn't as pretty as scoring. Remember, this Spurs team has won being ugly. When i see him dive for a loseball, hustle for a steal, fight for position against bigger SF's and PF's or put his body on the line for a charge. I see a guy trying his guts out. It makes it easy to overlook his scoring. I see a guy that only cares about helping his team to a win. When i see his teammates down on their scoring but doing nothing else to help their team it's a lot harder to digest.

You are delusional. Your emphasis on Tony, scoring and all star numbers is probably why.


:lol at Bruno emphasis on tony and scoring. I can't even remember Bruno trying to defend tony here (on the contrary of me lol) and there are probably dozens of posts of him saying that we need defense more than anything else and that since the beginning of the season. you're just dumb to answer that without even trying to answer his arguments.

You remember manu's save on the dive ? i remember he was 0-10 on that game and that the dive came after a bad pass from him.

You're talking, as many manu's fans, about his supposed improved passing game ? His APG has increased, still not too much, because he looks more for passing, not because of improved skills.

Still he's averaging less assists per minutes than tony and his ratio assists/bad passes is quite average, clearly lower than tony's one and not really different than the others years for him (about 3.5 when tony was at almost 8 last year and 4.5 this year IIRC).

I'm not bringing Tony for a manu vs tony thing but just to compare with our PG who isn't a pass first PG and who is having a so so year. Still, by all measuring ways, he's passing more efficiently than manu.
Manu can make the greatest assists, no doubt and he's doing quite well in the playmaking area as always. but nothing to erase his 40 % FG and his erratic play like some fans try to prove with the famous "intangibles".

[kace]

We need a player that knows how to score without dominating the ball.

Players like Kirk Hinrich, Shane Battier, and Courtney Lee come to mind.

That is true. Tony, especially, can't do anything without dominating the ball. manu can be a spot up shooter, but that's not his game and what makes him a special player. Same for tim who needs his post moves to dominate.

so, i couldn't agree more with you.

[Slippy]

:lol at Bruno emphasis on tony and scoring. I can't even remember Bruno trying to defend tony here (on the contrary of me lol) and there are probably dozens of posts of him saying that we need defense more than anything else and that since the beginning of the season. you're just dumb to answer that without even trying to answer his arguments.

.

There's numerous posts in this thread where he comments about Tony, Manu's scoring and allstar expectations. I guess that makes you dumber for missing them and his bitch for responding for him.

[westbound17]

he's on a big big slump! he must know his real role with the team.

[ElNono]

i would say they're having the same season more or less.

but manu's has been able to give some sparks from the bench that have provided some runs for the team in some games and so that have been huge for us whereas RJ was almost always a non-factor.

Make up your mind, please.

Spurs had the best bench to start the season in the entire NBA. Ginobili had nothing to do with that?

RJ has been a complete disappointment on both ends so far, period.

[Chomag]

he's on a big big slump! he must know his real role with the team.

Yeah, warm the bench, maybe help assist the towel boys handing out water? Hes gotta make used for that 14mil somewhere right.

[kace]

Make up your mind, please.

Spurs had the best bench to start the season in the entire NBA. Ginobili had nothing to do with that?

RJ has been a complete disappointment on both ends so far, period.

manu is great from the bench, we all know he could be a starter. but a lof of others players are involved in the bench production: hill, blair, bonner...... almost everyone outside RJ, tim and tony has came from the bench this season.

[2Cleva]

Well, now the Spurs fans see why many Laker fans laughed at Jefferson being the difference maker.

[hater]

Well, now the Spurs fans see why many Laker fans laughed at Jefferson being the difference maker.

except nobody really knew how that trade was gonna turn out. Lakerfans were just being haters

[TJastal]

Well, now the Spurs fans see why many Laker fans laughed at Jefferson being the difference maker.

How's your boy Artest doing? Did they remove all the stairs at Staples in order to keep him from hurtin himself?

:lol

[dbestpro]

and to think that Richard Jefferson's contract is double Shawn Marion's contract

Marion is on the books in Dallas for 5 years. RJ becomes a 15 mil expiring contract next year.

[2Cleva]

How's your boy Artest doing? Did they remove all the stairs at Staples in order to keep him from hurtin himself?

:lol

Defense has been great, he's not in the triangle groove on the other end.

[NRHector]

Well, now the Spurs fans see why many Laker fans laughed at Jefferson being the difference maker.Jefferson for Gasol,
do it Mitch