Nice win for Memphis

[Pelicans78]

Detroit's not a great team but still it's a good road win. This team seems to be getting better and better. Only question in my mind is will there bench improve during the course of the season, especially Ghazi's favorite player Hamed Hammadi.

[Allanon]

ZBo with 24 points on 50%, 13 rebounds 3 assists
Marc Gasol with 25 points on 62%, 12 rebounds, 4 assists
Rudy Gay 16
OJ May 16
Conley 14

Arguably the best frontcourt in the NBA and easily one of the top starter rotations.

If the Grizz keep on playing that balanced, most teams will find it hard to beat them.

[Pelicans78]

Gasol scored the last 6 points of the game. Detroit had their chances to win, but missed too many easy shots in the final 2 minutes.

[Allanon]

Gasol scored the last 6 points of the game. Detroit had their chances to win, but missed too many easy shots in the final 2 minutes.

Yeah, they blew it on that one possession where they stole it from Zbo's rebound but missed 2 wide open attempts.

[Pelicans78]

Zack Randolph is a terrific player in the post. He really controls the paint offensively with his scoring and defensively with his rebounding. His A game opens up alot of things for the Griz.

[Pelicans78]

BTW, their home winning streak will end on Saturday.

[Allanon]

BTW, their home winning streak will end on Saturday.

That's a huge, huge divisional game...like 2 games really.

Who would have believed any fan would be watching the Grizzlies record? :lol

[JamStone]

Memphis has great balance in their starting line-up offensively. Their main issues are two-fold. First, they play horrible defense. Ben Wallace looked like a good offensive NBA player tonight. And, second, they have little to no production off the bench. Both of those things will hurt them in the playoffs, but it's not like they'd be expected to do anything if they do make the post season. But, they are a nice, exciting team. They rebound well. And, they can really score. Nice, young team.

[21_Blessings]

I'm actually really hoping M. Gasol goes to the All-Star game. Would completely invalidate every collusion thread ever made on SpursTalk.

[Pelicans78]

I'm actually really hoping M. Gasol goes to the All-Star game. Would completely invalidate every collusion thread ever made on SpursTalk.

IMO, acquiring a cheaper Gasol is turning out to be a smart decision by Memphis. Memphis wouldn't have been able to acquire Randolph is Pau was under contract. Basically, they've added Randolph and Marc Gasol by trading Pau. Not to mention drafting Conley and Mayo by rebuilding the last couple of seasons.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I'm actually really hoping M. Gasol goes to the All-Star game. Would completely invalidate every collusion thread ever made on SpursTalk.


I think Memphis being better than they ever were with Gasol invalidates the collusion threads.

[JamStone]

It actually wouldn't. You don't evaluate how good a trade is well after the fact. You evaluate it at the time. At the time, Marc Gasol was a good international player but an unknown as it pertained to how he could play in the NBA. It's like saying at the time, the Pistons made a great trade shipping Grant Hill to Orlando for Ben Wallace. Retrospective analysis doesn't change the perceptions at the time of the trade. It was still a bullshit trade. And, it wasn't only what Memphis got in return that made it collusion. It was how the trade was handled.

[21_Blessings]

It actually wouldn't. You don't evaluate how good a trade is well after the fact.

Yes you do. When you make a trade for draft picks and future cap space in the biggest free agent class ever, you absolutely do not evaulutate it at the time. Doing so is short-sighted and overall dumb.


You evaluate it at the time. At the time, Marc Gasol was a good international player but an unknown as it pertained to how he could play in the NBA.

Wrong again. He was the ACB MVP at the time and Draft Express was calling him a lottery pick if had he came out a year later than he did.


It's like saying at the time, the Pistons made a great trade shipping Grant Hill to Orlando for Ben Wallace. Retrospective analysis doesn't change the perceptions at the time of the trade. It was still a bullshit trade. And, it wasn't only what Memphis got in return that made it collusion. It was how the trade was handled.

The trade was standard procedure. Trading a disgruntled player that had absolutely no future with the franchise for young talent and cap space in the biggest free agent class ever.

Way worse trades have been made. Even at first look.

[JamStone]

The collusion wasn't only about what Memphis got in return. It was the fact that Memphis didn't talk to any other teams, didn't look at what at the time could have been better offers. No other teams/GMs even knew Pau was on the market when the Grizz traded him. That's a big part of the collusion that has nothing to do with how good Marc Gasol was or is. This has been discussed at great length. How good Marc Gasol has become does not invalidate the collusion implications that went along with the trade at the time.

[21_Blessings]

The collusion wasn't only about what Memphis got in return. It was the fact that Memphis didn't talk to any other teams,

Now you're just lying. Gasol was on the trade block for over a year.


didn't look at what at the time could have been better offers. No other teams/GMs even knew Pau was on the market when the Grizz traded him.

See above. Not to mention Pau made public comments about his unhappiness.


That's a big part of the collusion that has nothing to do with how good Marc Gasol was or is. This has been discussed at great length. How good Marc Gasol has become does not invalidate the collusion implications that went along with the trade at the time.

It's been discussed at length and you apparently missed the discussion. Well documented that Gasol was being shopped for a long time before the trade ever took place.

[Findog]

I think Memphis being better than they ever were with Gasol invalidates the collusion threads.

Uh hold up there:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MEM/2004.html

[JamStone]

Gasol was shopped in the summer of 2007. Then Memphis made it known they weren't trading him. Then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, they traded him to the Lakers. There were several GMs quoted saying they had no idea Gasol was available when he was actually traded.

[Allanon]

I think it's fair to say Marc Gasol and the Grizzlies will win at least 1 Playoff game this year. Something Pau couldn't do in 12 tries.

Lakers could have kept Marc and saved Pau's salary for a nice Point Guard.

[Findog]

I think it's fair to say Marc Gasol and the Grizzlies will win at least 1 Playoff game this year. Something Pau couldn't do in 12 tries.

Lakers could have kept Marc and saved Pau's salary for a nice Point Guard.

Pau Gasol is still better than his little brother. The trade was two years ago; the Lakers couldn't wait on Marc taking those two years to develop while Kobe was demanding a trade. The lost to the 2004 defending champ Spurs, to the 2005 Suns as an 8th seed, to the 2006 Mavs that went on to win the conference title. I think it's fair to say the Grizz won't run into a team as good as those squads should they make the playoffs, and if it's the Lakers, I'd be surprised if they win more than one game.

[Allanon]

Pau Gasol is still better than his little brother. The trade was two years ago; the Lakers couldn't wait on Marc taking those two years to develop while Kobe was demanding a trade. The lost to the 2004 defending champ Spurs, to the 2005 Suns as an 8th seed, to the 2006 Mavs that went on to win the conference title. I think it's fair to say the Grizz won't run into a team as good as those squads should they make the playoffs, and if it's the Lakers, I'd be surprised if they win more than one game.

There's no excuse to never win a Playoff game. Even TMac getting laughed at for a 1st round virgin won some games.

As for Kobe, he was happy with the team after Bynum showed up. The Lakers before the Pau trade had been #1 in the West.

The Lakers wouldn't have won in 2008 with Pau or Marc. Even a rookie Marc Gasol was very good last year. And with Pau's salary, the Lakers could have picked up a big time point guard.

As for Marc not being as good as Pau, it's very close. Marc's only 2 points and 1 rebound behind Pau....for $14 million less.

Marc is the better defender and shooter.
Pau has better footwork and is a better passer.

I think Marc surpasses Pau next year.

[21_Blessings]

Gasol was shopped in the summer of 2007. Then Memphis made it known they weren't trading him.

When you're on the trading block and then your team continues to get worse. You remain on the trading block. Indiana 'made it known' to the media that they weren't trading JO multiple times. It's called posturing.

Your entire premise is based on a flat out untruth. There were Gasol to the Bulls rumors in 2008, not just 2007. It was known that Gasol was not happy and implied publicly he wanted out during the season. Common knowledge that he was inevitably going to be traded.


Then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, they traded him to the Lakers. There were several GMs quoted saying they had no idea Gasol was available when he was actually traded.

Nothing but bitterness.

Out of nowhere, you mean 3-4 weeks before the trade-deadline? Yeah completely out of nowhere.

[Findog]

There's no excuse to never win a Playoff game. Even TMac getting laughed at for a 1st round virgin won some games.

That's not my point. I'm not convinced the 2010 Grizz are better than the 2004 version.



Pau has better footwork and is a better passer.

And is the better player


I think Marc surpasses Pau next year.

Doubt it.

[Allanon]

That's not my point. I'm not convinced the 2010 Grizz are better than the 2004 version.

They'll win a game at least.



And is the better player
True...for now.



Doubt it.

Pau's 2 points and 1 rebound ahead of Marc this year at $14 million more in salary. Not a stretch at all for Marc to come up with 3 more points and 1 more rebound.

I would take Marc Gasol + $10 million point guard over Pau any day.

[Findog]

They'll win a game at least.

And if it's against a team not as good as those Spurs, Mavs or Suns teams, what does that prove? What's the difference between losing 4-0 and 4-1?

[21_Blessings]

T

And is the better player

.

Well sure. But he's not 17 million better and Pau is 5 years older. Marc is shooting 60% and plays tougher D.

[Allanon]

And if it's against a team not as good as those Spurs, Mavs or Suns teams, what does that prove? What's the difference between losing 4-0 and 4-1?

The difference is in winning at least 1 game.

There's no excuse you can make for not winning 1 game...and Pau had 12 tries at it.

[cobbler]

Gasol was shopped in the summer of 2007. Then Memphis made it known they weren't trading him. Then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, they traded him to the Lakers. There were several GMs quoted saying they had no idea Gasol was available when he was actually traded.

It's been well documented that Gasol was on the trade block. Chicago made an offer just 30 days prior to the Laker trade. If some GM's were not aware of their environment then that is their problem for not doing due diligence.

You are just making up outright lies to support your collusion theories....

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Uh hold up there:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MEM/2004.html


Since their 1-8 start they've gone 24-11. I think a valid case can be made that the 2010 Grizzlies are better than the 2004 Grizzlies.

[Findog]

Well sure. But he's not 17 million better and Pau is 5 years older. Marc is shooting 60% and plays tougher D.

And he'll be in line for a hefty payday when his contract is up. Who would you have rather had last year? Pau or Marc?

[21_Blessings]

And the 1-8 start shouldn't really be factored in since Iverson completely fucked their locker room.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If the 2004 Grizzlies were to play the 2010 Grizzlies in a playoff series, my money is on the 2010 Grizzlies.

[Allanon]

And he'll be in line for a hefty payday when his contract is up. Who would you have rather had last year? Pau or Marc?

To be fair,

Pau

or

Marc + $10 million salary player

[Findog]

The difference is in winning at least 1 game.


2007 Warriors > 2007 Rockets then I guess

[21_Blessings]

And he'll be in line for a hefty payday when his contract is up. Who would you have rather had last year? Pau or Marc?

Memphis would rather have Marc + Randolph + 2010 cap space than Pau Gasol.

The Lakers are happy with Pau.

Good trade for both teams.

The Lakers were not keeping Kwame's expiring in 2008. If Pau didn't happen, something else would have.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Maybe their was collusion with the Gasol trade, maybe their wasn't. All I know is, it worked out well for Memphis, and that somewhat takes away from the collusion argument. My personal opinion is that I'd rather blame my team's front office for not inquiring about possible ways to improve and needing Gasol traded to a division rival to realize that he was available.

[Allanon]

2007 Warriors > 2007 Rockets then I guess

I don't remember back that far to those 2 teams.

What are you trying to say?

[Allanon]

Good trade for both teams.


Emphasis on BOTH teams.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I also think the Marc > Pau argument is somewhat bullshit, but that trade enabled them to get Z-Bo who has been a stud this year. The scary part about Memphis is how good they'd be if they drafted Ty Evans instead of Thabeet.

[Allanon]

For the record, Marc is NOT greater than Pau.

But he's not a "serviceable" either. He's very good and very close to an All Star Center.

My point is the Lakers would have been just fine without the "collussion" trade.

If BOTH teams got great returns in trade, how is it collusion?

Pau Gasol for Cap space + Marc Gasol + #1 draft picks is probably one of the fairest big man trades we have ever seen.

Win for Mitch and win for Chris Wallace.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

For the record, Marc is NOT greater than Pau.

But he's not a "serviceable" either. He's very good and very close to an All Star Center.

My point is the Lakers would have been just fine without the "collussion" trade.


Without the Gasol trade LA could have easily unraveled completely. Yes, I know they were in 1st at a point prior to the Gasol trade, but lets look at the time of the Gasol trade. Bynum was down with what turned out to be a season ending injury. They played 10 games in between Bynum's injury and the Pau trade, in those 10 games they went 5-5, so without the Pau trade, LA is roughly a .500 team for the remainder of the 2007-2008 season since they would have neither Bynum nor Pau.

They won 57 games that year. The 9th seed in the West, Golden State, won 48 games. They went 27-9 after the Pau trade. For hypothetical sake, lets say they go 18-18 instead of 27-9 after the 30-16 start, that would mean they're tied with Golden State for the final playoff spot.

What I'm saying is, LA had a very reasonable chance at missing the playoffs entirely in 2007-2008 if the Pau trade never happens. Who knows how Kobe reacts if that happens. It could have very well triggered him making a serious trade demand.

I'm not saying this WOULD have happened if not for the Pau trade, just saying that the Pau trade could have very well prevented a disaster.

[Allanon]

Without the Gasol trade LA could have easily unraveled completely. Yes, I know they were in 1st at a point prior to the Gasol trade, but lets look at the time of the Gasol trade. Bynum was down with what turned out to be a season ending injury. They played 10 games in between Bynum's injury and the Pau trade, in those 10 games they went 5-5, so without the Pau trade, LA is roughly a .500 team for the remainder of the 2007-2008 season since they would have neither Bynum nor Pau.

They won 57 games that year. The 9th seed in the West, Golden State, won 48 games. They went 27-9 after the Pau trade. For hypothetical sake, lets say they go 18-18 instead of 27-9 after the 30-16 start, that would mean they're tied with Golden State for the final playoff spot.

What I'm saying is, LA had a very reasonable chance at missing the playoffs entirely in 2007-2008 if the Pau trade never happens. Who knows how Kobe reacts if that happens. It could have very well triggered him making a serious trade demand.

I'm not saying this WOULD have happened if not for the Pau trade, just saying that the Pau trade could have very well prevented a disaster.

Kobe was upset about not having the talent. But with Bynum and Ariza, the Lakers were once again a very talented team.

And Mitch was on the move, if it wasn't Pau, it would have been somebody else.

With Bynum, Kobe knew he had a chance again and if Mitch had come up with another trade instead of Pau, the Lakers still would have had a great team. You can't ask for more than that.

Kobe said it himself that he was happy with Bynum, the Lakers were contenders. Bynum had a fluke injury; I think Kobe understood that and would have waited next season for Bynum/Ariza/Marc + 1 more $10 million player (replacing Kwame)

I think the Lakers still would have been perfectly fine, if not better in the long run.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Kobe was upset about not having the talent. But with Bynum and Ariza, the Lakers were once again a very talented team.

And Mitch was on the move, if it wasn't Pau, it would have been somebody else.

With Bynum, Kobe knew he had a chance again and if Mitch had come up with another trade instead of Pau, the Lakers still would have had a great team. You can't ask for more than that.

Kobe said it himself that with Bynum, the Lakers were contenders. Bynum had a fluke injury; I think Kobe understood that and would have waited next season for Bynum/Ariza/Marc + 1 more $10 million player (replacing Kwame)

I think the Lakers still would have been perfectly fine, if not better in the long run.


Kobe went from publicly calling out Bynum to loving Bynum in less than a month. He could just as easily return to demanding a trade if they wound up missing the playoffs in 2008.

[Allanon]

Kobe went from publicly calling out Bynum to loving Bynum in less than a month. He could just as easily return to demanding a trade if they wound up missing the playoffs in 2008.

Nah, it was alot longer than a month. Kobe bitched out Bynum in the summer. Bynum realized he might leave the comfy confines of LA so he worked out and came back with hunger. Kobe said he loved him in December or January (don't remember which one).

Of course, this is all speculation. I'm man enough to admit there is a possibility that things wouldn't haven't been all pretty. Although I think it is a very minute chance compared to things turning out just fine.

I'm cool with the Pau trade, I think it's proven itself not to be the grand collusion everybody was crying about.

[21_Blessings]

Kobe went from publicly calling out Bynum to loving Bynum in less than a month. He could just as easily return to demanding a trade if they wound up missing the playoffs in 2008.

Kobe would give the Lakers a list of 5 teams and then veto all the trades after realizing what a shit situation that would be and end up staying in LA. The Lakers don't have problems attracting free agents or anything.

[Allanon]

I'd like to add Chris Wallace is a friggin' genius and deserves consideration for Executive of the Year.

Pau Gasol = ZBo + Marc Gasol
Rudy Gay, OJ Mayo, Conley = All solid draft picks
Allen Iverson = Didn't compound his mistake by forcing AI on the coach

[21_Blessings]

I'd like to add Chris Wallace is a friggin' genius and deserves consideration for Executive of the Year.

Thabeet ruins it.

Well I haven't seen much of him since they don't play him :lol But he looks pretty bad. Maybe he turns into something but even Rubio would have been better with the Gasol connection.

[Darthkiller]

memphis could have drafted Evans or Curry with the pick , instead they got thabust. imagine how much better their defense would be with Evans.

[Darthkiller]

I'd like to add Chris Wallace is a friggin' genius and deserves consideration for Executive of the Year.

Pau Gasol = ZBo + Marc Gasol
Rudy Gay, OJ Mayo, Conley = All solid draft picks
Allen Iverson = Didn't compound his mistake by forcing AI on the coach

rudy gay wasnt drafted by memphis

[HarlemHeat37]

Marc Gasol is a nice player and all, but he's overrated here IMO..I would be shocked if he's ever on the level of a Pau Gasol-type IMO..

Memphis deserves some credit though..the biggest move they made was gambling on Zach Randolph, which was criticized by everybody, including myself..it has clearly worked..

They should make another move to help their bench though..if they do that, it'll show that their front office is actually serious about making a playoff run..I love their starting lineup, but they still have a weak bench, so I don't know if their starters can carry the team for the entire season..

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Look I'm not making a declaration that if not for the Gasol trade, Kobe would have left and LA would currently be rebuilding. All I'm saying is that it easily could have happened.

[Allanon]

Thabeet ruins it.

Well I haven't seen much of him since they don't play him :lol But he looks pretty bad. Maybe he turns into something but even Rubio would have been better with the Gasol connection.

True. He hasn't panned out yet.

But they say Big men take a few years to show up. I'll give him 3 years to man up. He's shitty on offense but he's got impressive defensive skills.

[HarlemHeat37]

Chris Wallace was a horrible GM before he got to Memphis, that's what some people seem to forget..he took some gambles and he fortunately succeeded..he's also made some horrible moves as well..

[Allanon]

rudy gay wasnt drafted by memphis

Technically, True. Battier for Gay was a pretty good move though.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

rudy gay wasnt drafted by memphis


C'mon dude, Memphis and Houston worked out a deal that Houston would draft Gay for Memphis and then trade him for Battier. For all intensive purposes it was a Chris Wallace pick.

But yeah, Chris Wallace ruins any of that with the Thabeet pick.

[21_Blessings]

Chris Wallace was a horrible GM before he got to Memphis, that's what some people seem to forget..he took some gambles and he fortunately succeeded..he's also made some horrible moves as well..

Scola. :lol

[Allanon]

Marc Gasol is a nice player and all, but he's overrated here IMO..I would be shocked if he's ever on the level of a Pau Gasol-type IMO..

When there are so few good Centers, it's hard to over-rate a good one. I think Marc Gasol would easily be an All Star in the East.

NBA CENTERS
1) Dwight/Shaq (Dwight better regular season, Shaq better post-season)
2) Bynum
3) Marc Gasol
4) Chris Kaman
5) Brook Lopez

Very shallow list. I left out Amare cuz we all know he's not really a Center.